Couples Therapy For the Win!

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily Morse, and on today's show, I'm talking about couples therapy and why I truly believe everyone can benefit from it. Plus, I'm answering your questions on sex, dating, and relationships. Topics include, all right, therapy gets a bad rap, but only because we go when things get bad. So why not start sooner, like when things are actually going well? The different types of couples therapy and why we should change our perspectives to look at it as like a personal trainer for your relationship. So you've established a casual relationship with a partner, but does that mean there can be no intimacy during sex? Plus, callers chime in on the subject of premature escalation while dating and if there can be too much too soon. All this and more. Thanks for listening. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they called them in a bygone day. Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend? Oh man, he here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute. A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my.

Do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge?

What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks? Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me?

Oh my God, it feels so good. Being bad feels pretty good. Well, you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, you gotta check out sexwithemily.com to help you with all of your sex, relationship, and dating needs. We got a bunch there on the site. You can also find us wherever you listen to podcasts, plus I am on SiriusXM Radio Stars Channel 109 Monday through Friday, 5 to 7 PM Pacific, and you can get a free 30-day trial at sexwithemily.com/sxm or just call in any night. I'll answer your question. 888-947-8277. Find me on all social media across the board. It's @sexwithemily. Sex with Emily. All right guys, enjoy the show. I often say to you guys, I throw it out there and I'm like, I think every couple needs a little bit of therapy. And then there's always usually one person in the relationship, or God forbid both, oh, we don't need it, therapy's wrong, it's just for crazy people, or whatever people think. But think of a therapist like a personal trainer for your relationship. You know when you want to get in better shape, you're like, oh, I should just go to a trainer or a nutritionist. I know I've been eating healthy and it makes it so much easier, so much easier to understand, right? Right, exactly. If you go to Trainers are like, oh, I learned. Now I'm learning how to get into the right routine. You guys get married. We have no, no one's teaching you how to communicate, how to be a good lover, how to talk about problems. And in fact, if you're not a great communicator, and by the way, most of us, it's not like a born skill. You have to have parents who taught you how to communicate. You have to have good therapy. Why you should go. And here's some things you guys go before a crisis. So don't wait for the worst thing to happen. So I think that really like couples who really are into like their love and their relationship and wanting to preserve it, that's like a smart thing. It's very proactive, but that's the opposite of what usually happens. Most couples wait about 6 years before they seek help from a therapist.

6 years.

6 years. And that's why couples therapy has a lot of low satisfaction rates. It's true. Like couples therapy, typically people go when it's really bad. They've already passed that point of no return. And so I think that both couples, by the time you get to that point, they're like, this has been going on for years. They've already like exited the relationship in their heads. The reason why I love therapy, and I don't think it's ever too soon to go to therapy— people are like, when should we go? Is, you know, I remember someone said to me, we've only been together 9 months, but he wants to go. And I said, yeah, go right now, because what therapy does, it helps you figure out like are we meant to be together, are we not? And maybe we are, but we just don't know how to communicate about this, a few things. And it's actually like, you go to therapy to learn skills, not to find out what's wrong with you. So couples therapy works before you're not in a crisis. So how you know if you should go though is like, if you guys are facing the same issues over and over again, right? Like, let's say, you know, you've been together a while and you're like, okay, my partner never helps around the house. And I keep saying like, I'm doing everything and you never do everything. And now you get frustrated because they come home and now they're making a mess around the house and it's really a problem. And it's been going on for a year or two or three and you've said things and they've, they haven't made any changes. That's when you go, you're like, I keep telling him over and over again to pick up his shoes. I tell her to hang up her coat. She doesn't do it. Go to therapy and find out why this is making you insane. Furthermore, maybe you've told your partner, initiate sex more and they never initiate sex and you want to know why. Or you feel like they're, you know, what, what are the issues? People like money issues, or you like going out on the weekends and your partner only wants to stay home and this has been going on now for a while. Or the money issues, you guys. Money, sex, and kids. You're not raising kids the same way. You're not having sex. You can figure out how to communicate, how to get out of a rut, how to work through it because you haven't gotten to the point of resentment yet. It's just like, huh. And it's funny, in relationships we often have the same problems over and over again, and we break up or we get married and we still have those issues, right? Or something in between. But if you didn't— like, it doesn't mean that you can't ever solve those problems if you never worked on it. And I think we're all like hard workers, right? Like, for our jobs, we might go see a business coach, right? We might, like I said, see a trainer. You might get— why not for your relationship learn how to communicate better if you really love your partner?

And go before it bad, which is most of your life with your partner when you've been together, right? So why wouldn't you want help?

Exactly.

Working on that.

I think people don't get therapy. I think people who've never been have fear around it. And I think that all— a lot of us feel that we are, um, unlovable, unworthy. We feel like a therapist is going to call us out on all of our bad things that we're hiding from the world, because I think we all think in some ways we're really flawed. And I don't know, I just think we expect the worst. And I think that, or maybe someone told you something bad about it once. It just takes a few negative messages around something. But all I can tell you is that you have to find a good therapist. Like, there is some work in that, finding someone who you actually both connect with. But most of the time, it's going to help you really fast-track whatever your problems are and figure out how to resolve them. Or maybe you find out that you can't. But how great to find out that you're actually not going to be able to make it work and that you leave the relationship having done it in a way that's healthy, with a therapist, with a mediator, essentially. So that's why I think it's really helpful. But also, you guys, I also don't think it's ever too soon. Like I said, like, I think if it's—

I was just gonna ask you, like, what if you're like 3 months in?

I know people have done 3 months in. That's all. You're super therapy, like they're like into it. Yeah, what? It's like going to a play one night or going to dinner. Like, go to therapy and figure out 3 months in, like, we really like each other right now. I mean, think of how much time you save. So like, how about— yeah, I mean, like, I don't think it's ever too soon. I really don't. I feel like, um, I think if anything, it's just really smart and really efficient. Like, if you're someone who's really into business and being efficient and all the, like, uh, you know, everything right now is 4-hour work week and be a good person and be work, work harder, not smarter and all that work smarter, not harder. Like why not do that in your relationship? But why keep coming home with the same frigging issues?

So, well, do you think it's because people feel like if they need outside help, they've failed in some way?

Yeah. Like just like with sex, they feel like if sex goes bad, which it's going to eventually, you're going to have a problem in your sex life. I promise that they failed. The relationship goes bad. We should always be able to talk it out and figure it out. But I'm gonna guess that you, when you were all falling in love and everything was amazing, you probably weren't really learning how to communicate about things. Most of us are not great communicators. I would say most of what this show is about is teaching you all how to be better communicators. I always thought I was a great communicator, but it really, I was just a really good talker. I was really good at like talking to anybody and I was really social, but I was not a great communicator. And I'm still not perfect, but you know, I'm learning all the time. It is a friggin skill and it is such a valuable skill. And most of what communicating in a healthy way looks like is being vulnerable in a relationship and being like, I am having a really hard time right now. I really, I really, I really, you know, love being with you, but sometimes I feel insecure or I feel nervous, or there's this thing about myself that I think is not lovable. When you say the things you think you cannot say in a relationship, That's part of communication, but also learning how to talk to your partner in a way that's not gonna upset, not putting them on the defensive. Like most of the ways we communicate when people are probably listening right now, and you can call us if you, with anything, you're probably saying, I've told them a million times that I want my partner to initiate sex more, to take me out to dinner more. I've told them that they need to help more around the house or be a better parent or, Yeah, you've told them and you put them on the defensive. Remember when you start a conversation with, you never do this, or you're often doing this, or why do you— no one hears what you're saying. But when you start with feeling words like, I really, I feel when I've asked you these things, it doesn't happen, it makes me feel like you don't see me, or that my needs are not important to you, or it makes me feel not loved. I mean, you have to keep it in your court. How things make you feel. And then the reason why we also didn't do that is because a lot of us don't know how we feel. Therapy helps you with that.

I feel like it would be really hard to get defensive when someone says that, because how can you get defensive about something like, well, it makes me feel like this?

You can't argue with feelings.

I would automatically just be like, oh crap, I'm so sorry, I didn't know.

And you could also— right, exactly. Or, but if you're with the— maybe you would be like, well, tell me more about that. Or the best thing, like using Imago therapy is, okay, so I Imago therapy is that therapy that we talk about where you repeat back to your partner what you heard them say. So it's like, so if I said to you, Jamie, we are in a relationship, which we really are.

We kind of are.

And I say, it's really, it really makes me feel, I put all this effort today getting dressed up, we had a date, and I wore this nice outfit. When I came in and I made this effort and I feel like I look really pretty, It would be so nice to have you tell me that you feel like I, I look good tonight and give me a compliment. It makes me feel like you actually aren't attracted to me. And then what you would do in the Mago therapy, you'd repeat back to me and you'd say, so what I'm hearing is you feel not pretty when I— not loved when I don't give you compliments. And then I would be like, well, no, it's more like I feel that I made an effort and you never recognized, whatever. And then you'd be like, okay, so what you're saying, okay, yeah, that's it.

So it's like, 'cause I would then be like, oh, so something that I had mentioned to you, you tried on and then I didn't give you proper reinforcement.

Right.

Oh, and then we just made a breakthrough.

Exactly. Yeah.

Oh, that already felt good. I didn't even know it was a fictional situation.

It's a fictional situation, but I tried to make it, yeah. And you're like, oh, and then the other part of it is just kind of like saying, is repeating it and then you don't ever wanna say I'm sorry. You want to be like, I understand that that would be painful for you to be in, and I'm going to do my best to— and then you want to have a conclusion. I'm going to try my best to really recognize when you've made an effort in the relationship, and I don't want you to feel not loved because I really love you.

Okay, so it's kind of like you say something, and then when you repeat it back to your partner, you're repeating it back in essentially the way that your brain figured it out, right? Took it in. It's almost as if you guys are speaking two different languages.

Exactly.

Then you hear how it sounded to them and you can see like, okay, this is where I need to change what I need to say.

Exactly. Because a lot of times we say these things to our partners and we don't— I was trying to— I wanted to like read to you the third part or make sure. Yeah, that is— we don't— we're not— we don't hear what our partner says. So my point of it, of getting into Imago, we can get into it more, is that is that repeating back what your partner says is such a way to feel love, is to feel heard. Because a lot of times we also go into fix-it mode, okay? We go into like, let me— I do it too.

I do that all the time.

I'm realizing I do it all. I dwell. I do it all the time. And Joe, I do it with my niece who's not asking me for help sometimes. She's living with me and I'm like, I want to fix everything, right? But even in relationships, we don't want you to fix. And they typically— that's more of a masculine trait. When women are in their masculine or whoever you are, to fix. But sometimes we just want to be heard. So to say, what I hear you're saying is, wow, okay, so what you're saying is, I hear you and I see you. And then it also, the reason why this is so great is because it makes us feel heard, but also we might not have heard the right thing. So to say it back allows me to be like, correct you and to make sure that we're on the same page. And then how can you forget that conversation rather than like, you never do this and you never do that. And you say that 10 times over the last month or 6 months and then you're like, my partner doesn't listen to me because they can't hear you when you're not speaking in a way that's effective communication.

I like that because it's like slowing everything down because I feel like a lot of people talk over each other. They like don't even wait for the last words to come out, and so that's why they're getting— right, that used to happen to, to me with like my ex. I'd be like, if you let me finish, you would see the point I'm actually trying to make. And they would be like, okay, fine. And then when I said it, they're like, oh. I'm like, yeah, it's not even that big of a deal, just let me finish what I'm saying.

I think a lot of us just want to be heard. Exactly.

We're all crying out for attention.

We are, we really are. We just want to feel seen and heard. And like, really, it's just like, oh God, that sounds really tough. Or you can't say I'm sorry you're feeling that way. You're just the maggot. There's some technical things, like if you've done something wrong, don't say I'm sorry right away. But as long as you just get— if you just get anything out of this, like Slow everything down and actually listen to what your partner's saying. Because remember this, you guys, you could be— what's to say you could be right or you could be happy?

Well, because so many people are concerned with being right that they don't realize. I think it's like you always say, you're like, you're on a team, you're not against each other, you're on the same team.

So if you guys are on a team and you got married and you're together, you're in a long-term relationship, you both want to be happy. You don't want to be fighting all the time. Jerry doesn't want to be resenting his wife of 11 years for all these He can get out of this, perhaps, if it hasn't gone too far. But you gotta listen. There's some therapy stuff, you guys. That's why I think therapy's important. Did we get all that? We did. The real purpose. Do it, you guys. It'll help your relationship. And also, sometimes you just need a booster. You go for a while and you maybe do a little booster. You're like, we're gonna go once a month. We're gonna go once every 6 months. You keep going back. It's a trainer for your relationship. You all know how much I talk about meditation and breathing and being in the moment and how practicing mindfulness can help you have more fulfilling sex. Well, good news for you. I can now be your teacher for 5 minutes a day through the app Simple Habit. I now have a series all about sex, and each audio focuses on a different topic, and I give you an assignment to make sure you actually learn from the lesson, you know, to keep your sex life growing. This month I'm covering the basics, including everything from communication to exploration, and I'll be adding new lessons each month. By the way, when you're done with my series, there's hundreds of free wellness lessons and thousands of premium ones on there. It's seriously impressive. So if you can You can't sleep, you can't focus, you want to relax. They have parenting, they even have therapy. You can sort by how many minutes you have for a lesson and the topic that you want to work on, and boom, you're going to be feeling mindful and relaxed. You're going to love it. And my listeners can now save 30% on a premium membership. All you got to do, go to sexwithemily.com/simplehabit. Once you download it, you can quickly find my series by searching SWE. Again, save 30% on a premium membership by going to sexwithemily.com/simplehabit. S-I-M-P-L-E-H-A-B-I-T today, and then search SWE to find me there. Let me know how you like it. I love it. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to get into your calls.

All right, we have an Instagram question from a woman who's 24. She wants to know, how can I have more intimate sex with a casual partner?

More intimate sex with a casual partner. So I think we all define intimacy in different ways. And so I believe that casual sex doesn't have to be something where you're playing the cool girl and you're totally aloof. I think that this is a great time for women to realize it's not just about your partner's pleasure, but it's also about your own. So if there's something that you want, even during a casual encounter, however you define it, maybe you want more eye gazing, you want it to be a little bit slower. I say you just tell the person and you ask them or you show them what you actually want in bed. Now I know know that casual relationships are not for everybody and it can actually take a little bit of work, but it has to— you have to be a really good communicator and know that like it's okay if it doesn't work. Like people often ask me like, Emily, I want to have a one-night stand or I've had some, but they really freak me out. I feel really bad when the person doesn't call and every time it happens, it might not be for you, but for other people, I feel like, I feel like for women especially, we have heard this a lot and I know this to be true actually, that there's, you know, there's science behind me that when women have casual sex, they typically aren't having the most pleasure they can have measured by having orgasms, by being more comfortable, because what we require often is, is safety and feeling like we actually really know someone and they care for us. Now, that doesn't mean that in a casual encounter you can't have that, but it definitely takes some learning on your own of what feels good to you, what you actually would like to happen during sex, and then being able to communicate that to a partner, whether it's a one-off partner or a partner for life.

Do you feel like people in casual relationships don't often confirm what that means?

What, what casual means?

Yeah, I feel like people just assume there's like this— say like casual is the same for everyone.

Yeah, casual sex can be defined in so many ways, like friends with benefits, a one-night stand. It could be, you know, your ex, sleeping with your ex. It could be, you know, a an affair, sleeping with your boss. Casual sex is a huge umbrella term.

Yeah, but I mean, so how can you get on the same page?

Talk about it.

I feel like it would scare people off.

But so what? See, listen, this is what I want you all to understand is that the sooner you define, you have a conversation with someone, you DTR, which used to mean if I define the relationship, then I'm needy, and then they're not gonna like me anymore, so I'm just gonna have a bunch of casual sex for the next 6 months, 3 years, whatever it is, and waste a lot of time not asking for what I want. But I think it's actually really empowering and like redefining what it means to be, you know, the cool person. Like, we had a bunch of women calling like, oh, I'm trying to be the cool girl. Well, how about just saying, you know what, this is what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something casual. How I define that is it would feel really good to me if we could see each other once a week and have a sleepover on Saturday nights, and we know that that's what we're going to do. And Throughout the week, I'm not a great texter. Like, define it. I'm not a great texter, so I probably won't text you every day. And then the other person has a chance to say, well, I actually need a text every day. Okay, so then we can compromise on that. But really, I want you to know that I'm seeing other people. I mean, whatever it is that you're looking for, the sooner that we feel comfortable defining what we want in the relationship and that we want— want in bed, the more quality relationships we're going to have that are more, you know, that are going to feel more genuine to what we want. And more pleasurable sex we're going to have. But I think a lot of us are like, casual sex is really the fun. We get really drunk and we just hang out and it's great. But I just think that, that we don't actually take risks. We don't think that we can actually make efforts in those relationships. But I think if you can define them, they could actually be a great— especially if you don't have the emotions involved, you're like, this isn't for my forever person. This is my 3-month person. It still doesn't mean you should suffer waiting for them to figure out your body. Like, tell them. Right away what you want. I think that is empowering and that is hot. And that's confidence.

It is hot. It is empowering. I mean, I don't know. Casual sex is so funny because I feel like I'm a dick sometimes in my casual sex relationships because I'm just like, I just do. I'm very like, no, this, touch me this way. And sometimes I try to say it sexy, but I think sometimes it comes out like an order.

Right. It's good to know that about yourself. Well, you guys, listen, timing also is everything. And this is what I tell you even in long-term relationships. Just because you guys are listening to the show and you get really excited to have the sex talk tonight with your partner of 20 years, when you go home, it's not like, okay, I've been listening to Sex with Emily, I ordered all this bondage gear and I got toys and all these things and I want to spank you and stick this thing in my butt. No, it's like, slow it down. So even if it's casual, Jaime, and you're out with a guy, like that guy you went out with once and you were practicing, you were really excited, she's like, this is what I need and this is what I want. What did you say to him again? You're like, I need to be on top and I need to dominate it. I don't remember.

I don't know. I said, oh yeah, okay, I do remember. I said, because I am very dominant in the bedroom, but I would like to be submissive. However, I'm also very impatient, so if someone's not getting it, I just, I'm like, roll over, like, I'm gonna do this thing. But I told the guy, I was like, what do you like? He told me not very much, but he told me. He's like, what do you like? And I was like, I want someone. Yeah, I was like, I want someone to dominate me. I want them to put me in my place, like take charge, throw me down on the bed, and then be about my pleasure, but like make me do things, you know, that kind of stuff. And then when we went back to my apartment to have sex, none of that happened, right? Like, I was on the bottom and still doing all of the moving, and I was like, how is this even possible, right?

Well, because here's the thing, we are in a sex— we are in a sex bubble here at Sex Family. So guys 25 years old and you're saying to him, I want you to make me, I want to be submissive and do all these things. He had no idea what you're talking about.

I think it freaked him out.

So it's more like, when he said to you, what do you want? You could say, well, you know, there's a lot of things I want. You know what I find interesting? Do you know about dominance and submission? And he might be like, no, what does that mean? Well, and you might have to meet people where they're at.

That's true.

We forget, Jamie and I forget that people don't, they're not where we are every day. So I think it's also, So that's what I'm saying, you meet them where you like, ask questions. Because even when you have partners call in and think, I want to be pegged, I'm like, you haven't talked to your partner about this ever. Find out what they're into, tell them a little bit, and then you got to build up to these conversations.

Yeah, that's why I only went out with him twice.

Okay, question. If a woman— I just like opinion, I guess, um, is what I am asking for. If a woman knows so much about her own pleasure, do you think that can come off as intimidating to other Partners?

I think it can be, that's why we just, you guys, I don't think that we need to spoon-feed it, but I also think that if you're with a partner who has been living on this planet for so long, you guys can call us with anything, 888-947-8277, that there could be certain ego, like if he's with a man, it could be some ego bruising, like I know exactly what I want and this is what I want you to do. Then all of a sudden, you know, a lot of people feel insecure already when they're having sex. So it's, it's all about toning and timing.

Because I'm thinking in Jamie's case, like, she knew exactly what she wanted and she's like gave it all to him, and then she's like, what do you like? And he's like, oh shit.

Well, I think she asked him first.

I had him go first. I always have them go first because I know that— I know they're gonna say, I don't know, whatever you like.

Or hot. What do you mean, Coyote? Oh, I mean, it can be really hot someone knows what they want. Yeah, I'll show you until you— Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it can be hot, but I was the first thinking about how intimidating it can be. Yeah, but then if you're like— if rather than just like stating it, it's really— I think for a confident man that you'd want to be with, he would think it was really— for many men, they're like, thank God you know what you want. That is, a woman who knows what she wants is sexy because it's— they're trying to figure it out and wailing around, and most— a lot of women don't know. So yeah, it can be really hot to show them, but I think it's more of like a letting them know that this is what I want and I'm also gonna not expect you just to do it, but I'm gonna show you.

Yeah, and we're patient. We can be patient, help you, guide you.

Yeah, but no, I think of a guy's, if you scare someone away, they're not your person.

Oh, true. That's so true.

Just keep looking. You want the one who's like, hell yes, I'm down. I mean, I find that the more, we all say that confidence is, many of us, confidence is the sexiest thing in the bedroom. So you wanna meet that match who's like, oh yeah, girl, bring it. Oh, nice.

That guy circled back like, 3 months later too. And I was just like, no bro, I'm not going down that road again.

What was I thinking? He's been like knee-deep like watching.

Because I was, I was totally like, because I could tell he was in his head too. And then I was like, dude, we could take a break. Like, I'm really chill. I'm like, I'll get some water, I'll get us some chips, you know, take a snack break. And then he left feeling all weird. And then I was like, I was like right before I went to New York for Valentine's Day. And then when I came back, and then like 3 months later, he's like, hey, do you want to hang out again? And I was like, not really.

That sailed.

He had his chance.

Yeah, I don't know. But I mean, it's interesting because sometimes, for me at least, like, I want— I can explain what I like in the bedroom, but I also don't necessarily always want to have like blueprint sex. Yeah, like I have to like map it out like so much because sometimes it is really technical, and I just— I don't know how to make that more flowy.

Well, I feel like it's It's telling stories around it. It's showing what you want. If there's like a scene in like porn that you like, Erica Lust might have done something with it, or you might have them read something on the website. People learn differently. People learn by listening, by watching, by hearing, and like giving them more information I think is, is the best thing. Like, check out this scene. I think this would be really hot, right? Because most people will not have any idea what you're talking about. Think about the world we live in.

Oh, I was just thinking about your book. Like, your book Hot Sex was actually one of the first times like I I saw something and learned and was like, okay, this is something that I already know that I like, but I could show somebody instead of just telling them.

Yeah, exactly. Like, here's a rope, here's what it looks like, here's where my leg goes and here's where your foot goes and this is what's gonna happen. I think that people are open to that and I think also it's just a matter of, it's the tone, not having these expectations like, I can't believe you didn't know this already. It's like, here's what would be interesting to me, what do you think? But I think that we are, We're not used to talking about sex. So many of us have no experience. No one taught us anything. We've never had a partner who shared anything. So you have to just remember that you have to like do it in the tone that's accepting and warm and being open to what they want rather than just being like, I need this, so you're out. That doesn't always work either. It doesn't.

No way.

That does not communicate well.

But no, I just— that was what you were saying. I can just send guys blogs on the site. I don't know.

I did that. I used to do that. I'm like, read this. It's what— check out this oral sex thing. We're going to do this tonight. Read up.

Yes. This came to us from Sean. He's 48 in Louisiana. Writes, hi Emily, I have a dilemma regarding online dating/introduction. I met someone on a dating site. We exchanged numbers after a few messages. Initial conversations have been great, but we have not actually met yet. She shared a photo of herself in a sexy thong and bra. I was shocked she sent a picture of that nature so soon. So initially I really didn't say anything other than nice pic. After a few more conversations, I made a comment about the picture and what I could picture myself doing to her. Very sexual comment, I will admit, and she was extremely offended. She said, says that there is more to her than sex. How could I come at her like that so soon? I am completely confused.

Yes, we get this because it is— first of all, I get this is confusing. It's all about timing. Here's the thing. I understand why dating right now is very confusing. She sends him a picture.

Exactly.

You get a sexy thong and its bra, and of course, she is sending that photo. She's saying, "Look at me. We haven't met yet. This conversation's going well. I'm choosing to send you a sexy photo." And then, we walk this through. We're trying to figure out the scenario here. We're talking about it through the show, and it's like, okay, so then? What happens? He could at that moment reply back and just say like, which he did, he said, nice pic. And that was, that was a good thing. Nice pic.

Yeah, fine.

Then they continue to talk and just chat, chat, chat on the phone. And then boom, out of nowhere, after he sends a picture 3 days ago, he's like, I can't wait to, you know, do this thing where I want to like, who knows, we don't know what he said.

Yeah. But even if he's admitting himself that it was very sexual, then it was probably graphic.

Exactly. And so, here's the thing. Here's what I think. Because she sent you a picture does not necessarily mean that she wants you to respond back with what you want to do to her body, even though you're thinking that. And I think that's something that a lot of men go to, being the way they're thinking about things, like, oh, if she sent that, I understand that's suggestive. But here's the thing, and this is how I feel, and I think you might agree with this. If I have not met you in person, you've never actually had your hands on my body or seen my body, I need some foreplay with words. I need some warm-up. It feels kind of aggressive and a little bit violating. If he was like, "Well, I can't wait. I wanna slap that ass and lick that," whatever they would say, it would feel to me like it's too much. But then to say it 3 days later out of nowhere.

Well, that is really the thing that caught my eye with this as well. Because yes, she sent a picture. Obviously she knew she looked good. That's why she sent it. And he says, "Nice pic." I mean, I'm not saying he should have gotten super sexual right after that picture, but he could have said, I guess, maybe something a little bit more. But then to randomly just bring that up out of the blue a few conversations later is just very like wrong, just wrong time.

Wrong timing. Wrong timing. And also though, That is the wrong timing, but what if he said it initially and said that too? I don't know how I would feel if he said it right away either. I don't know that I would ever want him to even right away talk about my body personally, even though I sent it like, I can't wait to tap that or something.

Yeah, no, I think that, but I mean, so how, 'cause I don't think, he obviously didn't realize that he was doing something wrong here in that situation. So how could he?

Okay, right, so he was doing zero things wrong. So here's what you gotta do, you guys. Is that I think just like foreplay, just like sex, you gotta go slow. Like, you gotta have the buildup. You gotta always just like dirty talk. You don't wanna start being like, this is why I'm gonna pound you. I'm gonna do all these things to you right away when you don't know the person. So you wanna start with like, you look great. And then you wanna build it and see if they're open to things. So here's what you do. He could have done, I've been thinking about you in that bathing suit. I can't stop thinking about you. And then she says, yeah, what have you been thinking? To me, that's a clue. Well, I've been thinking about how your body would feel. Like, you gotta build up, but just to go too dirty too fast is— it's like you— and I think this is a great lesson for sex, that we often go— we go into sex too fast, we start pounding away too fast, we don't warm people up. So, but there's no way that anyone knows the answers to this. This happens all the time. This happens on dating apps. You send a first message, you chat for a few minutes, and they're like, send me a naked photo, or you look really hot, or what I can't wait to do to you. Now, I don't— I— some people might be encouraging that or might want it, but I feel like I understand why in this case, for everybody, the best lesson is to just go slow and get to know someone. Because I also think— I get that you want to do that, but I feel as a woman, it feels like a violation. You don't even know who I am. Yeah, like, see me yet? How do you know that?

And the, the initial sending of the picture, whilst obviously confusing, doesn't necessarily mean like, yeah, I'm for sure gonna have sex with you, because you haven't met yet. But in your, your opinion, Emily, like, how, how could, um, this person— let's just call her Jessica. I don't know what her name is, but let's call her Jessica. Like, how could she have maybe also handled this situation in the sense of like— well, I'm not saying she's exactly sharing the photo first because that is a confusing message.

It's a really confusing message. I think Okay, here's my opinion. I personally don't send photos. I don't send naked photos. I don't send even partially nude photos. I feel like getting sexual with someone, even mentioning it with someone you've never met in person and sending the photos— maybe he asked for it, who knows what happened— but I feel like it's better just to take your time and meet someone in person. And if you are texting back and forth and back and forth for days and they're talking for days, this is the problem, that you can't help but in your mind create some scenario of who this person is and this sort sort of false sense of closeness with someone. So I think before you even get to the point of sending pictures and getting sexual, meet the person first. I don't even think that any of this should be happening over text before you meet someone in person, or you talk to them, at least you FaceTime with them. This is a waste of time. Completely. You never get that time back that you spend building it up and then you kill it with a dick pic prematurely. Like, we're all wasting time and we're not really getting to know anyone. So I think it should emasculate to that point.

No, it shouldn't. And I mean, to me, the really most interesting part is that like he This is like, you would hear the situation and assume if there was no ages, they were like in their 20s. He's 48.

Exactly. This is happening at all ages. It's just, I think that it's a matter of, I don't think, I would love to hear from women if I'm wrong. I wanna hear from anyone, men, women, whoever's listening, 888-947-8277. I'm curious. I'm just speaking from like women I mostly know. I feel like in most cases, even if I do send a sexy pic, which I support women doing whatever they want to do, I don't think I'd want to hear back right away what someone wants to do to me sexually. I would agree. Yeah, and I've only done that with boyfriends. Right. So if you've never met them in person, it feels violating to me. Alright guys, we're gonna take a call.

Yes, we have Patty, 21, in California, who wants to know why would she be sending a picture of herself and then get mad about the comments.

Okay, that's what we're getting to. Patty, there's so much to unpack here. Hey Patty, thanks for calling.

Hey guys, I'm actually 41.

Oh, 41. Okay, got it, exactly. No, Patty, I get it, you're right. There was a lot here. I was like, I had so many things to say about this. You're absolutely right, why would she? She sends it and then—

Why? Like, she's asking for it. She's asking for him to make comments like that. Why would she even send a picture like that to him, you know, without even knowing him, meeting him on purpose or anything? Like, I wouldn't do that. You know, she's asking for it.

Right.

You know, so I think, yeah, I'm not gonna defend her. Right.

No, I understand. It's confusing. So what are the rules then? That's what we're saying. Like, I feel like there are some women who are like, no, I'm just sending it, but, but, but my— this guy should know. He should know. He shouldn't have gotten too sexy too fast for her. So what could she—

you know what to do if she wants to— if she wants to be respected, she should respect herself first. You know, it's—

Have you ever sent a photo, Patty? Have you ever sent a photo of yourself?

Oh, of course, to my husband and like Jamie said, to a boyfriend.

Right.

But that's because you already have history.

It's the history, that's exactly it.

Yeah, I'm not gonna be offended if he said, oh yeah, you know, I wanna do this to you because I'm sending him that picture because I want to know what he will do to me.

Exactly, like you're like, that's why I'm sending it, hello, like I'm trying to elicit that conversation. She didn't have the history with him yet. I get it. Thanks, Patty.

You're right.

Thanks for calling. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you. Bye.

Yeah, I mean, so this is the— this is, I think, like the weird line here because there is— it's so delicate because it's like, yes, she sent the picture, so obviously, like, in my mind too, if I sent a picture like that, I would expect certain things back. But it really does depend how sexual did he get. Maybe it was just really graphic and she was like, whoa, bro.

But maybe it was the wrong word. Maybe it was the wrong language because his last girlfriend liked when he said like, I'm gonna like— exactly, do you know, your pussy or something. And she's like, oh, I never used that word. I mean, we don't know what range, but that's why you gotta just like dirty talk. You gotta try it out first. You gotta like test the waters.

Yeah. And I think her response too, the saying like, how could you come at me like that? I'm more than just sex, is kind of weird. Like, that is weird too.

I think that is weird because she did send him a picture in a thong. Um, but I think that where it's very confusing because maybe that's just how she's been She's separating that from sex. She says, "I'm trying to show you who I am, but the fact that you still—" It's very confusing messages women have. We want to be desired so intensely that our biggest, for so many women, our fantasy is to be dominated so a man's overtaken with his lust for us and he can't help but throw us down on the bed because he wants us, but yet, we want to be looked at for more than sex, which is very confusing messages, I understand, which is why we're trying to unpack this every single night.

Mm-hmm, and we have a Christine, 30, in New York, who says she's a feminist, but she thinks this woman is overreacting. Hey, Christine.

I— hi, and I don't even agree with some of your reaction to this. Okay. You know, because we talk about, you know, consent, you know, consent's so important. Well, she didn't get consent that it was okay for him to— like, we assume that men want to see some risqué photo of us necessarily, right? And yeah, usually they do, but I'm just saying that It goes both ways, like— Oh, absolutely. Expecting the most— it's kind of— it's nuts. First of all, I personally, I don't— I'm not into sending naked photos of myself to strangers, but if some people are into that, that's cool. But for you to send, or, you know, barely dressed, whatever, whatever kind of photo, to me it's kind of like you've got some insecure— maybe I understand it's the norm that's the norm these days, maybe. And it's kind of honestly sad. I think if you're in a room, if you meet someone, you like them and you're into them, then whatever. But like, if you're sending to a stranger who, right, you've never met, you're gonna get pissed and dictate what kind of response you get, right? Exactly. Nothing with it, guys. That is— I, I mean, it's just, um, I mean, but like, again, the consent in the context.

Exactly. And we don't know. No, you're totally right. It's like, um, and we don't know that he might have said to her, me a picture. We don't know that he didn't ask her to send a picture. He said she shared a picture of herself, but still, I think it should be consensual. I'm saying that women, at least I never am just sitting around waiting for some guy to send me dick pic like, oh, you know, it's 3 o'clock on a Tuesday, God, it'd be nice to get a dick pic right now. You know, we don't— I don't— I think that we do want consent. I think it's shocking, and I think it goes both ways. You know, we want to say like, do you want this? Ask for it. And then I also think, yeah, if you don't know someone that well, I want people to understand that if someone— if whoever receives that photo— I've been with so many men guy friends and they're like, look what I just got, and they show me the picture. Somebody will see that photo of you and you don't even know this person. So yeah, I got it.

The norm these days for young females is just like, you know, I understand it's about empowering, feeling good about your body, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to put images out into the, the atmosphere. Yeah, I've had guys who hasn't— I've had guys send me just a picture in bed.

But did you want it before you were with the dick anyway? I just— right, we don't want it. I get it. All right. Thanks for seeing. We got to wrap. I so appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, everyone, thank you for listening, supporting the show, sharing it with a friend. Come on, don't you think your friend wants to hear all the stuff you just learned? Share it with them. Review our show wherever you listen. We so appreciate that. And thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, Elisa, producer Jamie and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.