Cuckolding, Consent & Casual Sex

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Emily thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and on today's show I'm talking with Sarah Sloan from the app open about how to find partners that want what you want. Shouldn't we all have? We also take calls about dating after divorce and ethical porn. All this and way more. Thanks for listening. I know that I used to think when I was a young woman having sex that I didn't really think it was okay to say no or to stop sex.

Somebody who's being honest about here's what I'm looking for and here's what my boundaries are. That automatically makes you sexier.

It's important to learn to be present in the moment. There's so many reasons why mindfulness is important, like reading your partner and you can ask them and say, you know, hey, how's this feeling?

Feeling?

Are you into this? Do you want to keep going? Do you want to stop? Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them. In a bygone day. You're listening to sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sexual. So today I'm going to continue with Sex Ed September by talking a little bit about consent. I mean, obviously, we've been having a very public conversation about it since, you know, the MeToo movement started and brought consent to the spotlight. But still, when it gets brought up, do you notice that people get uncomfortable? And some men today seem skittish, And I understand that it can be uncomfortable. But how about this? After listening to today's episode, you're actually going to realize that consent can be sexy and. And that you're. You're going to want consent. Well, in the way I'm going to talk about it, because, listen, when you and your partner are on the same page makes everything that much better. It's not some, like, formal contractual agreement that you sit down and you're going to discuss it seriously, but making sure that you're both excited and you're both ready for sex. And what turns you on is really about being more open and honest around sex. And that just sets the mood every time. Communication is sexy, too. I also talked with Sarah Sloan from Open about their awesome app that brings people together in really unique ways. You might have heard my interview with maile on our August 11th episode. She also works for Open, and Sarah is super knowledgeable about sex and navigating all kinds of relationships altogether. We talk about the controversy surrounding Jerry Falwell Jr. S recent firing and how his desires might actually just be normal, healthy behavior. We also talk about facing your sexual insecurities, how to get past them. You know, a lot of times what we're worried about is actually holding us back.

All right, guys. As part of our September Back to Sex Ed, I started thinking about all the things with sex that we are never taught. Not only are we not taught as adults, but even today, young people in schools are not being taught this as well. So one thing that keeps coming up is consent. I think there's some confusion about what consent actually means. And consent is an essential part of sex. It's not something that's outside of sex. Cause we all have the right to do whatever we want to do in it with our bodies and with sex. And since we've been so buttoned up about sex, I know that I used to think when I was a young woman having sex that I didn't really think it was okay to say no or to stop sex. Let's say I was attracted to Someone and maybe we went home, I went back to their room or their dorm room or, you know, their apartment, and we started fooling around. And then I started to feel.

Not comfortable anymore with it. And I'd start to feel like, oh, God, I'm not really attracted to this person. Or they just did something weird. I thought it was my duty and it would be insulting and I would hurt this person's feelings. And that was more important than me stopping any sex act that didn't quite feel right in the moment. And I just thought, oh, blue balls. Which, by the way, isn't a real thing. I mean, yes, your balls can hurt if you think you're gonna come and not come, but then you come and it's fine. Like, it's not like their penis is gonna fall off. And I didn't owe anyone anything, right? Especially as a woman. Like, that's what I thought. I didn't wanna be shamed. I wouldn't want him to not like me. Why we keep going with sex, sometimes we think it's easier to say yes than to say no. But if you really understand consent, then you understand that it's essential to sex and not just actual intercourse, but it's essential to even, like, moving forward with everything. With kissing, with making out with someone and then moving into other things. It's okay to say, not right now, or, let's slow this down. I know there were a lot of times where I felt like sex was really rushed. You know, rushing to the main course, as we think is intercourse. And I was like, oh, but I really liked when you're kissing. Let's go back to that. Or let's slow it down. Like, I didn't think any of that was okay. And I think this also has to do with being really in touch with our own bodies and exploring what makes me feel good. Am I actually enjoying this moment? And we're so often in our heads during sex, we're not in our bodies. You know, when you talk about somatic, it's an embodied experience, is actually being in touch with what's happening in our body in the moment. But if we were more present, we would say, like, that hurts, or, I'm not warmed up yet, or I'm not feeling it. If you think about it, if you are thinking about being intimate with someone or you already are, is it a hell yes or is it a hell no? If you're not feeling a hell yes, even if it's a hell maybe. Maybe it's time to pause. What else would you need in that moment to get to a hell yes. And maybe there's nothing. Maybe you're like, I'm gonna stay in this. Maybe no, period. You don't wanna do anything with anyone unless you're actually both excited to do it. You both wanna be on board. We talk about consent, and it's getting a lot of bad raps, obviously. Cause there's so much assault on college campuses that there's this whole, like, oh, great, now I gotta. Like, before I make out with someone, I have to have a picture of them saying yes on my camera. Like, that's not hot. That spoils the moment. But you know what else spoils the moment is when we don't know what's coming next. Like, is she gonna let me go down her pants? Is she get sex gonna happen? But if you clearly discuss your boundaries and what you're into and have all these healthy conversations around sex before you even have sex, like what turns you on or what are your fantasies, then we'll actually know what's on limits, what's off limits. Then we won't be in our heads the whole time worrying what our partners are gonna think. But let's just go back to consent for a moment. So, ways to ask for consent. You could say, would you mind if I give you a kiss? Could we move this into the bedroom? Do you want to have sex? And consent doesn't have to be so dull. You can make consent sexy. You could reframe a question. Think about that as part of, like, a seduction, as part of foreplay. Rather than saying, do you mind if I kiss you? You could say, I'm wondering what it would be like to kiss you right now. Like, I'm wondering what your lips would taste like. Would that be okay if I kissed you to me? That's hot. Like, you're thinking about kissing me, and then I'm like, do I want this? Do I not want this? But that's so much sexier than just not saying anything at all. Making assumptions, or just going right forward and being rejected. And the other thing is, a lot of times we miss opportunities because we don't ask for consent, right? So we're so worried of rejection, and we're trying to read someone's mind that we never make our move. We never let someone know that we're interested because we don't talk about sex. And it's so shameful and so taboo that we think we should all be mind readers. Consent goes both ways. It's about being upfront, being open. What do I Want what turns me on. This is why I love our yes, no, maybe list that you can find at the Sex with Emily site. It's a great place to start if you don't know how to even, like, talk about these things. Like, what's on the table, what's off the table. It lists everything from cuddling to kissing to anal sex to spanking. And if you both fill it out individually, then you could compare notes and then you'll know, well, anal's off the table, so I don't have to try anal. Or maybe there's some areas where you're both yeses. Well, how great if you both said yes to something, then you don't have to worry if that's okay. And when you're in doubt about anything, just speak up. Like, if you're not sure that your partner, you know, is into what you're doing, you can ask them and say, you know, hey, how's this feeling? Are you into this? Do you want to keep going? Do you want to stop? It's important to learn to be present in the moment. There's so many reasons why mindfulness is important. But reading the room, like reading your partner, are they feeling it? Cause there must have been so many times where my face might have looked horrified or I wasn't really into it. And I kept secretly wishing that my partner could tell that I didn't want to keep going. And if they'd been paying attention, you know, they might have known. Or if they had that knowledge that maybe they were so terrified that I was going to stop. Because, you know, men sometimes are afraid of losing their erections, let's say, so they just keep going. So I think reading body language is really important. And also remembering that consent is temporary. What I mean is, I might tell you at the beginning of the night that I'm really into penetration. Like, yes, I wanna have sex with you. And then it starts, and I realize that, you know what? I actually changed my mind. That's okay. It's okay to change your mind. It's okay that, you know, consent can change moment to moment or time to time. Just because I wanted you to go down on me last time doesn't mean that it's okay this time, right? So it's okay to check in and make sure that, you know your partner's enjoying it. And this is why, again, presence and awareness of you and your partner is so important. And so as a reminder, like, consent is not just the absence of no. Like, no doesn't mean yes. Consent is not Thinking that a no means yes. Consent is not about continuing after you change your mind because you owe it to someone. Consent is also not non verbal resistance. I showed you I didn't want it and you kept going. You know, consent is not something that you're coerced into. It's not continual, it's not a. I'm not sure, it's not a maybe just because I dressed super sexy when I went over your house. That is not consent. Consent is to maybe one act, but it doesn't mean I said yes to everything. We just don't want to ignore the signs from our partner. And you know what's really hot is slowing down. I mean, go five times slow, slower. If we just slowed sex down in every way, the kissing, the fooling around, the everything, it's so much better because then we actually can feel what's happening. We're not rushing and we're much more likely to actually know what feels good to us if we slow it down. I just think sex goes way too fast sometimes. So if you want to know what consent is like, affirmative consent, like hell yes. Consent it more. Looks like something that's equal. You both want it, you're sober now. I know you could sober sex. You're like, oh God, so dull. First off, that's when we don't have our right mind to be consensual. I don't even think that we enjoy. Like I've done that. I am not a saint, but I'm just saying is that the best sex in my life? It is not. So remember, it's voluntary, it's enthusiastic. I'm into it. Like, yes, I want sex. It's engaged, it's verbal and it's also very active. It's honest and it's definitely continual. We wanna keep asking for consent. I've been talking a lot about how do we talk about sex and how we talk to our kids about sex. I've been an advocate of it that in other countries they definitely teach sexual health and wellness and consent at a young age. And so you meet kids where they're at, so when kids are young, they'll teach them about their actual real name for their body parts and they'll teach them consent. You know, there's some people that say, can I change your diaper? Can I give you a hug? You don't force them to give their aunt a hug if they don't want to give their aunt a hug, right? And then you explain to them that their body is theirs, that they're autonomous. No one else can touch your body if you don't want them to. You give them the words to use. And sometimes we won't say we know to something because we don't know how to say it. So you can teach, you know, young children to say, like, please don't touch my leg, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't want you to do that to me. And this consent language rules goes for everybody. It's such an act of self. Care to actually be able to say no? Like, I wish that when I said no to my friends or meeting them for dinner, they would just say, thank you for taking care of yourself. I get that you have to work or you needed downtime. A no is a very personal thing. It's how I'm feeling in this moment. I'm respecting my boundaries. And if we could just reinforce people's own choices. Even when it comes to sex. If we learn that someone's no doesn't mean that we're a bad person or that we're ugly or that our bodies are not attractive. I think the reason why we don't take well to no is because we think, oh, I'm not attractive or I did something wrong. And like, I think every time someone says no to us for whatever it is, going for coffee or giving a blowjob, we think no means rejection on us. And technically it is. This person is saying, no, I don't wanna do whatever with you. But it's not for the reasons we think. Typically we create. Whole story, I'm a bad person, I'm not desirable, they have something better to do. Sure, all that could be true always, but typically it's because someone's just saying no. That's not where I'm at right now. Being sexual with you at this moment doesn't speak to me, doesn't feel good to me. And if we could just continually reinforce that no is okay and it's actually going to get us closer to getting our own needs met. Like, why waste time with a bunch of people who really want to say no, but they're saying yes. How great to just find your people, find your person that actually is on the same page with you. We'd get there a lot quicker. We'd have much more pleasurable sex, we'd have much more satisfying sex. Who doesn't want that? Hang tight. I'll be right back after this quick break.

All right, I'm going to jump in because my guest is here. Are so excited to talk to Sarah Sloan. Sarah is a sex. A kink and relationship educator and coach. She's also the director of operations and communications at Open, which we've talked a lot about. Open on the show. We actually had Miley on a few weeks ago. And what I love about this app is that I've never seen anything like it. Because first you can choose your, your identity, your gender, your orientation. It's all cool. You can also use a hashtag to express whatever you're into. Bdsm, cuckolding, spanking, or just sexting. You could hashtag it on this app. It's just really cool. But Sarah and I have a lot in common. She's been doing this for over 20 years, talking about ethical, non monogamy, kink, all the things. So, Sarah, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Great to have you here.

It's so lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.

It's so lovely to see you. I mean. Okay, so after we had, you know, Miley on and we've been talking about the apps right now with dating, you know, a lot of couples, let's say this is what I've seen. Couples are staying together, but they're like, I don't know that we can continue in the same way. So let's have some of those difficult conversations. Maybe there's a fantasy we on. Maybe we want to have a threesome or open it up. And so what have you been seeing with Open and membership and trends during this quarantine time?

You know, initially we, I think we were all kind of scrambling to figure out like, oh, how do we make sure that we're still bringing our community of members something really amazing to kind of keep them, keep them connected with each other. Because the first thing that happened was everything got shut down and we weren't able to see our friends, we weren't able to visit our family. And so we knew that connection was going to be the thing that was going to get us through this. So we started really doing some shifts in terms of our business, including weekly.

Get togethers and weekly educational events for everybody, but also doing some members only events. But what we started seeing was that initial downturn, I think, where people were just not really sure what they were going to do. And now we're finding people are more and more interested than ever in reaching out and having conversations, in trying to find somebody as a potential, whether it's an online date or somebody to just kind of talk about their fantasies with. We've seen a bunch of couples that have come on board in the last little bit. Lots of people who are singletons who are looking for couples.

Yeah.

Not just.

Yeah. Let me say that it's not just couples, you guys. It is for singles too. Of course. It's for literally whatever. What I love what you're saying about these free events. And it is a free app and you can find it at hashtag open. So what's cool is that you have the free education and what's. So that's open.com events. I sit here every night trying to help people sort of answer questions and kind of educate them on fantasies or how to communicate or just anything. And that the fact that you offer an online virtual place for people to get more information right now because, you know you don't go from zero to non monogamy, right? You don't.

Yeah. One of the things that we are kind of getting a clue on, I think culturally is that when we're going through times of a lot of stress, we pay attention to the fact that life becomes a little bit more valuable. Our time becomes a little bit more valuable. I look forward to the two hours a week that I get to go outside and spend time with a friend. That has become much more important than it was before. I think the positive quality of that is that we're looking at how can I make the relationships in my life or the sex in my life feel really fulfilling and really strong? And so we're kind of not glossing over, like, oh, well, I've put up with this thing for five or six years. I guess I can keep putting up with it. So I think for people who are willing to approach making some changes in their life or like learning something new with a sense of curiosity, I think this can be a really transformative time for folks having workshops that are fairly short. You know, we don't make anybody sit there for more than an hour because, you know, it's really difficult to engage online. But bringing in educators from all walks of life from all over the United States on all kinds of topics, we've had everything from we have consent. Later this week, we had a workshop that some porn performers and producers did on how to consume ethical porn. So we have a little bit of everything. So there's something for everybody to pique your curiosity.

So tell me about your ethical. Because we talk a lot about ethical porn. And. Well, let me just tell you this. You've got not one nut, but two experts on the show tonight to answer your questions about fantasies, porn, open relationships, how to try something different in the bedroom. So let's talk about the ethical because, okay, so to set this up, a lot of our callers are, like, confused by the porn consumption of their partner. They. They want to watch their partner, but they haven't found anything that speaks to them. We know that porn's so much more readily available. So maybe you could tell me about the conversation around ethical Por. Yeah, curious what came up?

We had a couple, Jetson, Jasmine and King Noir, who are performers and producers. They run their own porn business. And they did an amazing conversation where they talked about really intentionally looking for porn that is created ethically, that honors the people who are creating it, that doesn't fetishize based on bodies or based on race. You know, looking at where porn performers are producing their own work so that they're making a good income from their work. But it's about more than just kind of like surfing pornhub. It's about actually finding a performer that you really like that is thriving and doing work that empowers them and then kind of figuring out, like, what work has this person done, who has this person enjoying? A lot of performers are on Instagram and are on Twitter now, so you can kind of get a little bit of a behind the scenes and get to know them a little bit. And I think for people who aren't sure about their own consumption of porn, being able to try to find a click with a performer and then start with that performer's work can be a totally different way of approaching porn that is actually more. I don't know, there's a little bit more heart to it.

I think there is more heart to it. It makes so much sense because there's sometimes so much shame. People feel really bad or dirty after you for a multitude of reasons. But that might kind of help people feel. Yeah, a little bit more heart, a little more soulful in your porn watching, a little more consciousness. Let's talk to Matt, 26, in Missouri. Hi, Matt. What's going on? Thanks for calling. Hi, Matt.

Thank you. My call, of course.

Kind of a weird question, maybe. So I'm 26 and so I've never dated. I don't have game. I met my wife when I was 21. Very sheltered childhood. Didn't really get out. We got married when I was 22. The last several years in an abusive relationship. No sex life. Come to find out, she's been cheating on me. And so now we're in the middle of divorce and we're in Casenet. And I guess my question comes down to a couple of things. Number one, when is it okay to get back into dating. Like, technically, I'm still married. I'm separated. When is it okay to give back in the swing of things? And two.

Yeah.

How?

For someone with no experience, Matt, these.

Are such good questions and not weird at all. And let me just tell you this. This question's gonna help so many people. Like, you don't all call in, but I'm, you know, people listening. Cause I get this all ages, Matt. It's not weird. People are married for 20 years and have the same question. So, first off, here's the thing. I'm not one who's like, you must wait six months. I want you to wait until you're actually ready, until you feel that you've.

Healed from the relationship.

You're ready to move on already. Like, is there still anger? You want to make sure you're at a place where, like, we're definitely moving on and I'm ready to date. I mean, you did file. That's great. So really, it's more about your own emotional state. For example, let's say I met somebody, and they were like, yeah, we're in this proceedings. It's really ugly. My ex is a bitch. She cheated. Maybe, like, you are not ready. But if you showed up on a date, Matt, and you're like, yeah, you know, my ex wife and I, we're just. We're parting ways. It didn't work out. But I'm really open right now to just kind of meet people. You know, it depends where your head is right now. So are you ready to date? If society doesn't matter, are you ready to date?

Kind of. And this. I don't know if this makes me have to be a bad, bad person or not. I'm kind of past feeling like a bad person. I've done that for several years now. I'm not ready for a relationship.

You're ready for some sex? Okay, well, Sarah is, like, literally the perfect person. But first off, it's okay for you to state that to people because there's a lot of people in your position, and that's how you get more comfortable. So, Sarah Sloan from Hashtag Open. What do think, Sarah?

Absolutely. You know, there's nothing that says that you have to go back into any kind of dating that fits a certain definition. You don't have to go look for your next big relationship. You don't have to go out and even look for more than just a single date. I think the thing that really resonates with everybody, and this is whether whether you're new to dating or whether you're not. People forget sometimes that somebody who's being honest about, here's what I'm looking for and here's what my boundaries are. That automatically makes you sex. Because there are a lot of people that love to play games. There are a lot of people that feel like they have to play a game or they have to say something to somebody in order to get a date with them or get some time with them. And I know this from the dating app. When people say, you know what? I'm here for this. I'm here for a coffee date. I'm here for looking for a long term relationship. You are more likely to get what you're actually looking for than if you just kind of go into it and say, well, I'm open to anything. You know, like pick a thing that you want and go for it.

I think she's right. Boundaries are sexy. There's nothing sexy that someone who's like, I'm getting out of a relationship. I'm just looking to meet people, make new friends. And I think it is a practice. So to answer your question, like, how do you do it? It's like a muscle, right? It's something that you just have to practice and build. And I think being honest with people check out open. However you meet people, I think it's great to. If you tell everyone that you're single and that you're looking to meet people, say yes to those events that maybe. Well, right now I don't know what your quarantine's like in Missouri, but you know, maybe there's some outdoor barbecues, like say yes to those things that you wouldn't normally because that's where you're likely to meet people. You'll get there, Matt, you know, and. And don't be hard on yourself. I relate to that too. Sounds like you've been through the wringer. And I would also recommend therapy that could be really helpful. You said it was abusive. And that stuff doesn't go away in time unless it really helps to get into it. A therapist that will really help this process.

Too expensive.

They are expensive. But I think your mental health, obviously your physical health, but when you get mentally healthy, it's gonna help you in every other area of your life. Cause then you'll understand who you are, what you're looking for, why you got yourself into that place. Probably something from childhood was familiar, but go easy on yourself.

Well, thank you so much.

Of course.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for helping me out with that. I love the show by the way.

Thank you, Matt. I'm here for you every night. Let me know how it goes, okay? Okay. Thanks, Matt. You probably get a lot of that, Sarah. Like people who are newly single or, you know, it's so scary to get back out there again. You know, never been on apps, but apps are the way to go now. I think that it's almost like, why not?

You know, it is so much easier to go into an app and you know, we're set up for a double opt in. So basically both people have to match. So it makes it a little bit more of a comfortable environment. You know, you're not going to just kind of get a barrage of inappropriate photos through messages. But I think that having an opportunity to kind of test the waters with somebody, get a little bit of information about them. I love it when people put pictures of them and their pets or them doing something active or something that looks fun. You know, I want to see somebody who has a little bit of a spark of personality. With a dating app, you get an opportunity to kind of go like, oh, let me know a little bit bite size about you. And then let's see if we match and if we match, let's chat a little bit. No pressure. And we can kind of take it from there. So it's definitely cheaper than a singles bar for sure.

Exactly. You don't have to buy them anything. Right. You just need strong Internet connection. It's funny because I've been saying for years, like, if you're going to date an app like you might be, if you're going to date, why get Ready, drive clothes, FaceTime them first do video chat. And now it's expected. I was, it's funny, I was talking to a friend this weekend and she was telling me about a date. It's a quarantine romance. She said, we've been together for six weeks. She says we met, but of course we got through the first video date or we did two video date. It's like that's the norm now, which I love. The slowing down of getting to know somebody. I think that that's what we've needed in a way. Slowing down in every area of our life. So you can ask the questions and, and see if there's a connection.

Yeah, it's about being able to make space for that exploration. I think about it often when we talk to people who have been working a highly professional job for years and years and years and then for whatever reason they have some time off, they get laid off or they're going to Retirement. And they suddenly have all of this time, and they realize, oh, I've missed out. I've skipped over things. And so I think creating this space gives us a chance to kind of say what was missing. What could I do now? What can I do differently in the future?

Yeah.

What's important to me? What do I value?

I also want to talk to you about a few things. If you want to hang out for a second, we can come back, take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. There's more sex with Emily coming right up.

Up.

Let's talk to Christy, 52, in Texas. Hi, Christy.

Hi, Emily.

How are you? I'm so good, sweetie. What's going on? How can I help?

Oh, my goodness.

Okay.

Well, I. My husband and I, we've been married for 20 years, and this is my second marriage. My first marriage ended with my husband being unfaithful. I've always felt really secure in this marriage. Recently, we moved to a new city and don't know very many people. He was here a little bit before I did moved, but.

I. When I got here, I had noticed some stuff on the computer and on the phone. And so obviously he was looking at things. And there was even a dating site. But I think I do believe it was just mostly curiosity. Not. I'm not thinking that he's had an affair, but it just kind of triggers.

Yeah.

Something in me.

And so then lately, when we've been. And we have an active sex life four or four or five times a week, which I think is pretty good for a couple in their 50s.

Yeah, sounds good to me.

But I guess I just all of a sudden become really insecure because I feel like, you been watching porn? And he's kind of being secretive about it, and he's kind of trying new things, which I'm figuring that he's, you know, learning from that. And, you know, one night I said, because I started listening to you, you know, why don't we try and watch something together? And, you know, so we watched a little bit. And I have given him several opportunities to kind of be like, show me.

Without saying, I know that you're looking at it or you're watching something. You know, I just don't know how to address it. But I can tell when we're making my life. He has his eyes closed. He might not even be looking at me. And I kind of feel like he's not having sex with me, even though he is, but it's with somebody in his head. So I guess I just need to know how to communicate that? Because then. And I have to kind of fess up that I was nosy and.

Yeah, you know, Christy, it sounds like. Well, first off, thank you so much for calling with this, because that's a lot to unpack. It's like New city. You've been together 20 years. You found some stuff. It harkens back to your earlier cheating with your ex husband that you didn't trust and that cheated. So I understand all of this. So first, is he cheating, or is there something going on? And then the porn part of it. But I think there's another part of it that's more about pulling back and just talking about your sex life in general. Like you said, his eyes were closed and he's trying new things, but you're having sex five days a week, which is. I think that's super healthy. But I'm curious, like, has there been a marked change? Like, did he just start trying new things a week ago? Or did it start to seem like new? Because you saw the stuff.

I think that it's probably been maybe, like, in the past four or five months. He's been here a year. I've been here maybe eight months or so.

Okay.

Like I said, I've stumbled on a couple inappropriate messages that made me feel uneasy. I mean, I always just felt like I was on a pedestal with him. And so whenever I see.

So they were messages. So you actually saw messages? I'm just trying to understand. So you saw, like, an exchange from somebody?

Yeah, it was an. It really was pretty innocent. But he had reached out to somebody from high school, and there was some messages. There was nothing sexual in them, really, other than one of the girls. There were, like, three. And I think it was more of an ego boost or something like that hurt my feelings that of course he would do that. And of course, I feel super inexperienced because I've had sex with two people in my entire life, and I was married to both of them, Christy.

So here's the thing. There's a certain journey. Maybe it is important for you to kind of figure out what does turn you on. There's no way you would know after being with two people for all these years. You know, I didn't know. And I was. I was 35 years old. I didn't know I was with a lot of people, and I was like, no one. I thought it was all about pleasing my partner. I thought sex was about pleasing. Pleasing a man and performing. And so I had to learn that, too. So there's like, a two Parter, I think it would be great for you to talk with your husband and say, I know when you ask me, I want to learn together. Would you be willing to use some, like, mutual masturbation, finding porn that actually works for you and just not to please him? And maybe this would be something new and exciting that, you know. I love that he asks what you want. It sounds like he really wants to be a great lover to you and he wants to please you. It sounds. And then if you guys could make. Maybe make this exploration part two of, like, your, or, you know, your sex life 2.0 right now about exploring together what turns both of you on, that could be interesting. What do you think, Sarah?

I think sometimes it's about having the. Having the vocabulary around sex. And that can be really challenging when I, you know, I Do Kink 101 classes, and people are just like, I know that there are things that I can do, but I don't know what they are or what would feel good for me. So one of the tools that I've recommended is to do what's called a yes, no, maybe list. And it's basically a list of, like, different things. It might say, like, anything from oral sex to massage to. You can get kinky versions of it. But what it does is it gives you a list that you can kind of go through and you can do one separately from your husband, and you can circle like, yes, I'm into this. No, I'm not really into that. Maybe I don't know enough about this to know whether I'm up for it or not. But you can kind of get this list of things that you can consider one at a time. Hey, is this something that might be awesome for me to try? And then the two of you can compare those lists and look for the yeses and look for the yeses and maybes, because it starts developing a language of pleasure for the two of you. The other thing is, if. Even if porn is not something that turns you on, I would suggest picking up some erotica I really love. Like, the short story erotica anthologies. You can get them on your Kindle. So Nobo knows that you're reading porn, but sometimes it's like reading through that gives you an idea of like, oh, it was really hot when he tied her up, or it was really hot the way that she picked this person up at a bar. And so you can kind of build a fantasy library for yourself that can then help you when you have that conversation with your sweetie and you say, like, hey, I Want to do more exploring? Can we talk about some things? And keep in mind that a lot of men have a lot of shame around their sexuality. We kind of don't necessarily give them the okay that, hey, it's okay for you to have sexual desires outside of what we've really specifically told men that they're allowed to do. So, you know, approaching it from a, hey, I see you trying new things. I see you like, wanting to explore. I want to be there with you. I want to do this with you as your wife. I think could potentially help diminish some of that shame as well.

Yeah. Without judgment and saying, I'm in it with you, babe. We've both been together for 20 years. Let's play. Let's have fun. We actually have a yes, no, maybe list on our site@sexwithemily.com sign up for a free hashtag openclass. I mean, like, I think it is partial education and exploration. Cause I totally get, Christy, that you don't even know what's on the menu. You're like, I want to know, but I've never explored. So it's partially like educating yourself through all these great ways Sarah mentioned and, and also just having a healthy conversation with your partner and also remembering it's not a one time conversation. Like, this won't be solved one night at dinner with him. Right. But it becomes part of something that you're. It's like a new. Think of it like a new sport or a new hobby that you guys are taking up together. And that hobby is your sexual intimacy. Great family, of course. Christy, I'll be here for you. You can just have the first conversation. Let me know. Okay. Thank you for calling, Kristi. Appreciate you.

Of course.

Thank you for calling. All right. Sarah Sloan's here. Sarah Sloan's from that hashtag open. We have history. We both work together in this, in the industry, and Sarah's worked in sex education. So I want to talk to you about what's happened with Jerry Falwell Jr. And there was a lot of press about that. He was the former chancellor and president of Liberty University, the country's largest Christian university. And what came out is, I think there was a few allegations and then finally he had to step down from his post about cuckolding. Okay. So cuckolding is the, you know, the fantasy of watching his partner have sex, in this case with another man. It's a common fantasy, and it is one that has a lot of shame around it. Let's just talk about cuckolding for a moment.

So I want to just kind of say, like a lot of people are assigning cuckolding to the Falwells and like the old school dictionary definition, and we know how long dictionary definitions are good for, basically says that the cuckold is the man whose wife has stepped out on him without his consent. And so, like, there's that piece, but we don't know the content of what his relationship with his wife was. They for all we know, and it sounds like from one of the reports that this was consensual, that they were consensually bringing a third person into the bedroom that he was watching. And whether he was watching because he's a voyeur and he really wants to do that, whether he's watching because his wife, he likes seeing her pleasure, which is the word compersion, gets used a lot in non monogamy circles to talk about getting pleasure from your partner's pleasure. It could be that there's a little bit of a humiliation aspect in it, which is what we call the new definition of cuckolding. But we know that there was some additions of more people. We know that at least one of them is being presented as being consensual. It seems like there are some other ones, but yeah, there. But in most cases it feels like that this is something that was. He was aware of. But I think that, you know, the way that we structure kind of morality in this country is that it's not okay for you to admit that you are engaged in a consensual threesome, especially when you're somebody who is kind of like literally the head of the representation of the Moral Majority, literally. And so it really. And we were talking a little earlier as well about that. This is such a profound fantasy for so many people. The numbers of men who have fantasized about their wife having another sexual partner is well up into the 50% over. So the average man has fantasized about this.

Exactly. We hear about them too. And there's a lot of shame around it, which I think, again, you're right. It's such a good point that from all means, from what I've read, you've probably all read. If you read about the news, it was consensual. It was an ongoing relationship with somebody who they kept seeing together. To me it sounds like that's how a lot of these fantasies kind of unfold. And I don't like the work. I don't like cuckolding. I feel like. What'd you say they call it now? Just not Compersion, but you called it.

A cuckolding, has a little bit more of a flavor of erotic humiliation. Erotic humiliation.

Because, yes, I love the term compersion, because so many people just think, like, I can't imagine that that would ever somehow give me pleasure to see my partner have pleasure, which is. I mean, a lot of us get hung up on, like, how could he watch his wife be with someone else? And 52% in studies this is by this. Justin Laymeller, who studies a lot of these fantasies, says that heterosexual men, 52%, said they'd fantasize about watching their partner have sex with someone else. And the basic premise is kind of intuitive in the sense of, like, a lot of fantasies, when we're told we don't want or we can't do something, we want it even more. I think we can all relate to that, right? We want it more. And that does create a risk. If you're gonna violate a taboo, that creates a greater risk. But the interesting thing is when he talked about that people in this particular article, that men who are more on the right politically tend to have this fantasy more often than people who are on the left politically or more conservative people tend to have this fantasy. And the people on the left are more into bdsm, and that's more of their fantasy. And I just find it interesting, you break down a political divide.

There's a lot of the structure of kind of like the patriarchy. So, like, this is this very, like, men are the head of the household. Men are responsible for everything. You know, they're the spiritual leaders, or they're the financial leaders of their home. There's a lot of that that's kind of wrapped up in kind of current right wing thinking. And so the big violation there is that the man loses control of what his wife can do. And so for a lot of men, you know, having your partner have sex with another man is literally a challenge to masculinity in a way that I think, you know, for some people, that can be really hot because it really does kind of pull that taboo right up to the surface of what would happen if my wife was sexually pleasured by somebody else. So there's like this really dynamic tension for a lot of people. On the other hand, I know a lot of guys who are on the left wing who go to swing clubs, that go to swing clubs because they really like watching their partner have sex with other people. And it's fun. And there's no. That tension, isn't there? It's just that's not the thing for them. And that's like, the question of whether or not it's healthy. The relative health is kind of not really the big thing to debate. To me, the question is, is everybody going into it with a sense of curiosity and a sense of authentic consent? And when it's over with, do you feel good about it? In retrospect, that, to me, is how we break out what a healthy sexual life is. And that could be cuckolding. That could be, you know, tying your partner up. That could. Having really amazing monogamous missionary position sex with maybe a toy every once in a while. There's no right or wrong in that. It's like, the question is whether we're creating a space with our partners where we can say, hey, you know, I think it'd be really hot if we, like, talk dirty to each other, or if we, you know, cruise together on a dating app. You know, that's. That's where the health of a relationship, and that's where the health of sexuality comes from.

God, it's such a great definition of it that it's like, you don't want to wake up with a shame over, like, you want to make sure that you feel good about the act afterwards. But it starts with curiosity and openness. Couples can actually have very healthy relationship. We don't know what happened with his relationship. Hopefully it was healthy. I think the part that probably wasn't healthy was that he was hiding it. But in many relationships, and you probably see this in your work as well, like, we rather live a life not fulfilling my family fantasy than actually try some things that actually could work out. Like, maybe people have this fantasy of wanting to see their partner with somebody else or try bdsm, but they just don't know where to start. And I know you educate on this as well. You know, what are you finding? Do you find couples coming together and ask questions about opening up or what comes up? What's the first step usually for couples or individuals?

Really great question. I think a lot of people come in and feel like, I have this thing that I've been thinking about. What are the steps that I need to take? And a lot of times, they want technique. I have to say, it really amazes me constantly, the quality of members that we have in app, because we've got a lot of people who. They're kind of like, okay, so we've had the conversation about deep consent. We're working on this, and it's always kind of like this moment as an educator where you're like, yay, like, you got it. I think that for a lot of people it's the first step is figuring out that it's okay for them to have that desire and then figuring out how they can share it with somebody else without feeling shamed or judged. And I was that person. When I was in my late 20s, I wanted to try some stuff and my soon to be future ex husband was just not down with it. But, but the way that he responded kind of reinforced this idea that my desires were shameful. And so. And when we were talking with Christy earlier, one of the things that I really wanted her to hear is like, hey, you know, we come to the table when we're talking about sex with a lot of deep seated shame. Like, we are not living in a culture that tells us it's okay to have the bodies that we have and so to acknowledge for our partner, hey, I want to make space for you to just tell me what you're into, even if it's not something I want to do. We can find a way to fantasize about it, or we can find a way to kind scratch that itch a little bit. Can be such a gift of grace for our partners, and it also reflects back onto us. If we're creating a space where we're not going to judge or shame our partners or our friends when they disclose to us, then maybe we can internalize some of that and not judge or shame ourselves for what are entirely normal and perfectly healthy fantasies and desires.

It's all right. It's all okay. That's so true that part of our job as sex educators is really just saying, it's okay, it's healthy, you're okay. And then teaching us how to talk to our partners and recognize their shame. Part of being sexually healthy is acknowledging that we're all sexual beings and we have desires and we might not understand them, but feeling that we have a partner that can listen and giving that space and saying, I don't really understand your request, but I'm here to listen. Let's learn more together, putting words around it. You were so right earlier when you said, so what if you still didn't have the words, not only the words to describe what we're into, but the words to even be a compassionate, empathic partner.

We're just not taught how to really communicate like that. I remember going to marital counseling over two decades ago and they gave me that really simple, when this happens, I feel this way and I would like for this next time. And that was the first step in me being able to have a conversation with a partner that was authentic. I also really love reading books about emotional intelligence because I think that, you know, the same communication skills that we use in our relationships with our partners in the bedroom, those communication skills work really well in the rest of our lives.

Which ones have you read lately that you're into?

I've been rereading Sonya Taylor's the Body is not an Apology, which is an amazing book. Amazing, amazing.

I don't think I know it.

She created the website thebody is not an apology dot com. A lot of it deals with radical body acceptance and it talks about folks who are queer. It talks about folks who are people of size. It talks about folks with physical disabilities. And it really is about that we all have the right to exist in our body with love and to get the things that feel good for us. It's about sexual power. It's also about getting our emotional needs needs met and getting our basic physical needs met. And that all of that kind of together is what creates a whole person. We can't just skip any one part of ourselves if we want to be a whole person.

Right? Exactly. I mean, that is the work that's so interesting. Like in going back to Christy. It's so true because it's like there was so much there to unpack where yes, I want her to have healthy conversations with her husband, but it does all start with ourselves. My listeners are so brave for calling in even and asking their questions because it's like I know that that they've never talked about their sex life really or thought about it or to even say, but okay, the first step is loving ourselves and we're even liking ourselves. Where does that start? And doing some work around it. And that's why I always encourage people to have these conversations before you get married, if we can. But it's never too late. Yes, I love this. So, okay, let's talk. What's coming up next for Open? If people want to come to an event you asked said you also can.

Actually see all of our previous 20 some episodes of our hashtag open. We've been doing this for since the beginning of quarantine.

Thank you so much Sarah Stone for being here from Open. It's the app you need to all check out. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. There's so much more to talk about, so don't miss my next episode. Subscribe to Sex with Emily right now.

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