Dating Apps, Red Flags & Bad Habits w/ Logan Ury

A great relationship is the culmination of good decisions. Make good decisions, you propel yourself into a great relationship. Make bad decisions, and you repeat the same bad patterns over and over. Okay, so it's not that I'm totally screwed by my history. It's not that I'll never find love. It's that I've been making certain choices and if I can understand why and then make different choices in the future, I can wind up on a different path.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Today my guest is Logan Urie. The author of how to Not Die Alone and Director of Relationship Science at Hinge, joins me to share her best tips for all things dating. She uses her psychology and behavioral science background at Harvard and Google as a current day dating coach. We discuss the science of decision making and how it impacts your dating behavior. This gets good you guys. Logan provides practical tips for avoiding dating blind spots, recognizing the perils of unrealistic expectations. Sound familiar? And learning the algorithms to live by for finding a satisfying relationship. We discuss how deal breakers may be an excuse for avoiding connection, how attachment styles affect our dating outcomes, the paradox of choice in the dating world, and and how to get out of the checklist mindset. She also breaks down the most common dating tendencies. Hey all you maximizers out there. Shares strategies behind making the best decisions, explains why the spark may be bs, and even offers how to advice for creating a powerful dating profile. Even if you're not dating right now, you're gonna find a lot of fascinating tips that you can use in your day to day life, in your professional life, your personal relationships. I just love this book. I've already bought it for so many friends so hope you enjoy it.

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You can find us on all social media. It is ex with Emily. Be sure to check out my new article Valentine's Day Gift Guide the Ultimate Pleasure Journey on our Website sex with emily.com I want to let you know that the paperback of my book Smart Sex is now out in bookstores in the US and if you live in the UK. My book was just released January 30th. More places coming soon. But check out Smart Sex. If you're a paperback person, check out the paperback. You're gonna love it. It's been an incredible journey with book and now the Paperback is so exciting. Also wanted to mention my membership community Smart S X that we launched in September. And it's just been an incredible community of people coming together to share, to grow, to support each other, to have accountability in our desires, to have better sex. I bring in some of the leading experts in the world to teach know a few times a month. It's just a wonderful community. We're exploring and learning so much about ourselves and you can learn about your sexual health and just join us there. All right everyone, enjoy this episode.

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Your book how to not Die Alone. The surprising science that will help you find love. So you sent the book to me and I came into my room last week and my assistant was here and she opened up, she put it on my bed and it was a Friday and my dog was on my bed. And then your book, how not to Die, I'm like, were you trying to tell me something for the weekend? Like what? I think that your book is a game changer.

Very nice.

You have so many practical tools and tips and it gives so much clarity. Not even if you're in a relationship. You can learn so much because you are applying behavioral science to dating, which is just brilliant. So tell us about yourself first before I just devour your book here.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the kind words. I'm really glad you loved it.

Yeah.

I've always had these two interests. So on one hand, psychology and the science of decision making. On the other hand, dating, sex, and relationships. And so for a long time, I've been trying to figure out ways to combine the two. And I've done that through matchmaking. I've done that through one on one dating coaching. Now I work at Hinge and I do it by making changes to the app. But I'm just so excited that I was able to do it through the medium of my book. And the whole idea of the book is that it breaks down a great relationship into a series of decisions. And the perspective of the book is that a great relationship is the culmination of good decisions. And make good decisions, you propel yourself into a great relationship. Make bad decisions, and you repeat the same bad patterns over and over, and you wind up in no relationship or in a not so great relationship. And so I think it's really empowering for people to understand. Okay, so it's not that I'm totally screwed by my history. It's not that I'll never find love. It's that I've been making certain choices, and if I can understand why and then make different choices in the future, I can wind up on a different path.

That's exactly what it is. I always say that dating is a skill set. Dating is something that you need to practice. It's like maybe you were a great dater, you thought you were a great dater years ago, and then you haven't in a while. So what I love is that there's so much clarity in this, that it's not that you have bad luck, and yeah, maybe you are picking the wrong people, but you explain how to kind of hack that so you no longer are making those mistakes. Tell me about what you label as the different kinds of daters. The three kinds of daters. And we could start there. You guys look for yourself in these descriptions.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's really one of my favorite parts of the book is this framework called the three dating tendencies. And the story there is that as a dating coach, I had all these different people coming to my office, showing up on Zoom, and I noticed they're from all different walks of life, but they seem to suffer from the same set of dating blind spots. And so those are patterns of Behavior, ways of thinking that are holding them back from finding love, but that they can't identify on their own. And so I categorize them into this thing called the three dating tendencies. And each one suffers from unrealistic expectations. And so first, you have the romanticizer.

I love this. Okay. Yay.

The romanticizer is somebody who has unrealistic expectations of relationships. So this is that friend of yours, or maybe this is you who says, I love love. I believe in a soulmate. There's one person out there for me I don't want to use the dating apps. They're not romantic. And they're waiting for the meet cute. They're waiting to go to the farmer's market and reach for the tomato at the same time as the guy. And then suddenly they fall into happily ever after. And the issue here is that the romanticizer thinks that once you're with the right person, a relationship's going to be effortless. And that's just not true. Relationships require work, and even the best relationships do require that constant effort and attention. The second type is the maximizer. And I'm a maximizer. Many of the clients I work with are maximizers, and these are people who have unrealistic expectations of their partners. And this is the one who says, I like my girlfriend, but could I be 5% happier with somebody else? Or my boyfriend's ambitious, but could I be someone with someone who's 5% hotter, 5% more interesting? And it's always, what else is out there? How can I do better? And they're constantly looking for the next best thing. And the thing about the maximizer is they feel like I can research my way to the right answer. If only I can see every possible option, then I can make the perfect choice. And so the issue with the maximizer, as I'm sure you know, is that you can't date everyone. You can't turn over every leaf. At a certain point, you have to say, this person is great. I'm going to commit to them, and I'm going to make it work. And it's not about finding the perfect person. And then it's easy. It's about finding somebody great, investing in them, and then building that relationship. Relationship. And then the last one is the hesitator. And I have to tell you, the thing about the hesitator is they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. And so there's the ones who say, I'll be ready to date when I lose ten pounds. I'll be ready to date when I have a more impressive job title. And with the pandemic, that's given them a lot of excuses not to date. And so for the hesitator, they think, I'm just. I'm not lovable yet. I need to make all these changes to myself, and then I'll be ready for somebody to love me. But they really underestimate two things, and those are, one, dating is a skill, and you need to get out there and get better at it. And if you're not dating, you're not getting better at dating. And two, you need to figure out what type of person you want to be with. And if you're just sitting at home trying to, you know, improve yourself but not actually dating, then you're not figuring out what type of person makes you happy. And so the advice really for the hesitator is to don't wait date. It's just to get out there. You'll make some mistakes, you're imperfect. The person that you're going to wind up with will be imperfect. And don't sit around waiting to feel 100% ready, because there's no such thing.

So true. It's like you think about, we get better at relationships by being in relation to someone else. You just really. You're not going to just by studying dating or studying sex. You got to get out there and practice, and that's how you learn. Did you find anything split by gender, that there was more men who were more likely to be maximizers or more women are romanticizers?

Yeah, it's an interesting question. And honestly, as I've been doing more interviews for my book, one thing that's come up a few times that I actually feel really proud of is I've done interviews with a bunch of young women in their 20s who are like, I liked your book because you didn't say to women, pretend to be something you're not. Play games, pull back, don't have sex until this date. And they were like, I feel like every single piece of advice in your book is for everyone. It's not very gendered. And I was like, I didn't even realize that. But that's how I feel. A lot of this stuff is universal. It's like, be a good person, have integrity. Find somebody who's reliable. Don't get distracted by the spark. Give somebody a chance. And I don't think that those gender rules are relevant. Obviously, there are some differences. And in the book, I talk about fertility, and men can have kids way older. And there are some things there that are frustrating. But Mostly, I feel like men and women benefit from the same advice, which is be a good person and know yourself and find somebody who's a good person who knows themselves.

Exactly. Logan, What I found now, after so many years of doing this, is that it's really not about gender. No matter who you're sleeping with, your gender identity, it's behavior.

Yeah. I mean, I can say, I think in general, women probably have a slight more tendency to be romanticizers, and women are more likely to consume Disney movies and Disney princess stories and rom coms. And so there is more of a story in women's head around the meet cute and the narrative and what am I gonna tell my friends? And then I would say men maybe tend to be maximizers a bit more. More focused on the research, more focused on the quote, unquote, objective. Right. Decision. But in general, the patterns that I describe in the book are about human behavior versus gendered behavior.

Right. I love the more we get away from that, we're all gonna really benefit in the decisions we make in our life. And so let's talk about the process of. Cause there was so much that struck me here of knowing when it's time, like knowing when you found the person. And I love that you actually have data on this. What is it? 37% rule.

Oh, yeah.

That's so great for every anything. That's what I'm saying. This is so applicable. Yeah, let's talk about that. How do you know when you're done? Because I remember once, and I've always been someone who wasn't really focused, ironically focused on relationships or marriage. It just wasn't my. My focus. But my mom, I remember one time saying to her, I was like, 30. I said, Mom, I just need to get out there and date a little bit, because I'm definitely a maximizer. And then my attachment style is, like, avoided. And I was like, mom, I'm just gonna go out there and date. And she's like, how much longer do you need to date? And she's like, you've already dated. I'm like, I know, but I just. It was about my own behavior. So let's talk about how you know, how you pretty much know when you've met the person that you should maybe commit to.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I do think many people are maximizers. I think our culture creates really a feeling of maximizers. Because I talk about this in the book, right before somebody goes on a trip, they're gonna read every Airbnb review. They're gonna look at TripAdvisor, they're gonna look on Yelp. And it's this feeling of the right answer. I just have to research my way through it. And people crave this sense of certainty, and they feel like, you know, the objective right answer is only one Google search away. But that's just not the case in dating and relationships. You can't date all people. You don't know all possible outcomes. There is a point at which committing to somebody is a leap of faith. And so the 37% rule, which I'd love to talk your listeners through, is basically something that I share with maximizers. And so maximizers are like, well, I've been dating my boyfriend for this many years, and he wants to get married, but I'm just not sure because I don't know what else is out there. And so what I like to talk to them about is this concept called the secretary problem. And this is a sort of a mathematical riddle. And so here's how it goes. Imagine that you're hiring a secretary, and you know you have 100 possible candidates. You have to interview them one at a time. And each time after you go through a candidate, you say yes or no. And so at what point do you choose your candidate? So let's say you choose too early on. You don't know what else was out there if you choose too late. What if all the good candidates came before and there's nobody good left? And so what they have found is that this is what you should do. This is the mathematically correct solution. You talk to the first 37 people, and after that, you say, who was the single best person among that group? That person is now your benchmark. The next time that you find somebody who's as good or better than that person, you hire them on the spot. And so with dating, and this is an idea from the book, Algorithms to Live by, they say, well, who knows how many people you're going to date? Can't come up with that number. But let's just say for argument's sake, you're going to date from age 18 to 40. Well, what's 37% into that age range? It's 26.1. So when you're around 26 years old, you've already dated 37% of the people, come up with the benchmark from that first 37% and commit to the next person who you like as much or more than that first group. And when I say this to people, they usually freak out, and they say, but I'm way past 20. Six, what are you saying to me? Am I behind? And I'm like, you're not behind, but you've likely already dated somebody who'd make a great partner. The answer is not to keep researching. It's to figure out who was the best person you dated in those years. And now, the next time you find someone who you like, realize how great they are, commit to them, and build that relationship versus letting all these great people go. Because you always have one foot out the door, wondering, what else is out there?

I mean, that is just so many people that we can. That I know about. And I've been there, too. I've been there, like, oh, what else is out there? And I'm not ready. So let's talk about this, though. So when you said that, I can just hear everybody thinking, so you mean I have to go back to my ex? Does that mean that I missed the best person? And, like, how do we get people. You have so much great advice about how do we just get over the exes already? How do we just.

That's a great distinction, because you're right. If somebody heard that, they could say, do I go back to my ex? And no, because if you think about that secretary problem, you don't go back and take the best person from the 37%. You say, this is the best that's out there. And this gives me a sense of what to look for. But in general, I feel very strongly that people should shut the door on their exes. And people think, I'll keep my ex around. I'll stay in touch with them. It's no harm. You know, they distract me, and they help. Help me, and, you know, I'll find somebody else. And people don't realize that making irreversible decisions actually makes us much happier than making reversible ones. And so shutting the door in the X, creating space for somebody new to come into your life, that's often how people get into relationships, because they don't realize how much mental space their ex is taking up in their brain.

Exactly it. You know, And I love that you say this, too in the book. Delete them. Like, get rid of it. Unfollow them. Even unfollow on Venmo.

Unfollow everywhere.

And then I love. You know, you guys have to. I just love how you write the book. Cause you're like, delete his number. And then like, 0.6. You're like, delete it.

Really?

Delete it. Cause I know you have it hidden. I know you have it hidden. In your back pocket somewhere. Like, delete it.

Delete it.

Because it's so true. We just need that clean slate. And I always say, like, I am really good friends with a lot of my exes, like, my dearest friends. But it wasn't right away. It was like a year after, no talking, or six months, and we moved out. And then we could go back to it. That's not for everybody. But if you're still hanging onto that kernel of the X, it really is holding you back. It really is, statistically speaking. But also emotionally, it's hard to get out there if you're still, you know, bogged down by the X. So decision making is really hard for me. And not just in dating, but I spent a lot of time painstakingly going over things and researching, is it the right decision, the wrong decision? And I always know that you gotta take the decision, you gotta commit to the decision. And you talk about how we're so worried about making the objectively right decision or something, but that doesn't really exist. It's more about feeling good about your decision, which is something we could all do. But I know that I'm someone who has buyer's remorse. I regret things. Or, why did I get that jacket? Or why did I buy this thing and could I return it? And so can we talk about that whole process of how we could feel better about our decisions in love and in life?

Yeah, absolutely. And so one of my favorite frameworks that I discuss in the book, and this is by a sociologist named Herbert Simon, is maximizers and satisficers. And so we talked about maximizers. They are always trying to make the objective, right decision. They want to do all of the research. They want to see the complete set and then choose the best among it. The opposite is a satisficer. And so what a satisficer does is they have high. They can. They have expectations, and they can be really high. They can have high standards. But when they find someone or something that satisfies those standards, they commit to it. And so in the book, I give an example of a maximizer who's buying an espresso machine. And they read all the reviews on Amazon, they go to Wirecutter, they find that the number one possible espresso machine is the Breville, and they order the Breville and they sit there and they drink their first cup of coffee, and they say, it's pretty good, but should I have gotten this other one? Because this tastes a tiny bit bitter. And they're always doubting it. They're always saying, what else could I have done? And the satisficer says, oh, okay, Nespresso is a pretty good brand. I'll go to the Nespresso store in my neighborhood, I'll buy a machine. And they get home and they're satisfied with the Nespresso machine and they feel good about their decision. And so in the end, who's better off? The person who got the quote, unquote, best espresso machine that wirecutter recommends or the person who's sitting there satisfied with their purchase? And that's why I really have tried since learning this and writing the book to become more of a satisficer. Because what matters is how you feel about your decision. It doesn't matter if you make the best possible decision. It's, do you feel satisfied and do you feel confident in what you've chosen?

I'm going to take a quick break, but when we come back, I asked Logan how she became a satisficer.

So how did you. What was your journey of becoming? Because I decided that I want to become a satisfyer.

Yeah, so. So the first thing was really just understanding that satisficers are happier and so that it was something desirable. Because I think a lot of times when people hear, oh, you want me to become a satisficer, it's like, you want me to settle. You want me to give up. You want me to drop my high expectations. This is what makes me a killer. This is what makes me ambitious. You know, why do you want me to lose my edge? But it doesn't have to do with that. It has to do with feeling less doubt and feeling more confident in your decisions. And so one example of becoming a satisficer is last year, I bought a car for the first time, and my husband and I decided on a Saturday that we were going to buy a car. Saturday night, we signed up for Geico Auto Insurance because that was, you know, we've been seeing the ads for years. Sunday we went to CarMax. We tried a bunch of different cars, didn't like any of them. Monday, we went to the Toyota dealership. And then there was one car, sort of that was a hybrid in our price range that we liked, and we bought that car. And so we basically bought the biggest purchase of our life so far in 48 hours. And we feel great about it. We didn't feel like we had to spend months doing research. We didn't feel like we had to weigh every single different used Toyota hybrid against each Other we said, what matters to us are these things. This car.

Satisfies those things, and we're gonna buy it. And we have been super happy with the car ever since. And so part of it is actually just decreasing the amount of time that you give yourself to make a decision. So, yeah. So a common one is people say, oh, I have to find the perfect flight. And I spend weeks researching flights, and could it be 20% cheaper if I fly into this airport? But it's like, is it really worth weeks of time to try to save.

A few dollars and maybe a few hours on the layover? No. So say to yourself, I'm going to give myself two hours to make this decision, and then at the end of it, I'm going to make the best decision I can with information that I know.

Because you talk also about the importance of deadlines with these things, too, that when you have a deadline, you're more likely to just make the decision than you are if you're like, well, take your time, make a decision. Especially if you're a procrastinator.

Oh, I love deadlines. When I think about the fact that I was able to write a book, it all had to do with deadlines because I'm extremely extroverted. I love to work with other people. Working alone is hard for me. And so writing a book is a very solo process. I'm also a procrastinator, like many of us. And so I was like, how can I make this solo endeavor more social? And so what I did was I emailed a bunch of friends and I said, would you be willing to host a book dinner for me? I'll give you some money for the food. You invite five people. I invite five people. And then a few days before the dinner, I'm going to send you two chapters, and at the dinner, we'll discuss the chapters. And so what that did was it created accountability for me. I had to send in the chapters before the dinner, and people were coming to help me. I wanted to hit the deadline. And instead of writing the book in a fury a month before the due date, I was actually able to write the book consistently throughout the year because of these dinners. And so I absolutely apply the lessons from behavioral science, the things I talk in the book about how to overcome bad habits, I apply that to my own bad habits, especially when it came to writing the book.

Wow. Yeah. Well, you did a great job with it. So it's really. It's about accountability. I know you're also a dating advisor for Hinge is That what you.

Director of Relationship Science? Yeah.

People have these notions about dating apps. Oh, it's not organic or it's just for hookups. It's kind of like people saying to me, oh, well, I really wanna lose weight. They're like, well, I've done everything. And I'm like, well, have you looked at your nutrition? Like, no, I haven't done that, but I work out every day. It's like, you have to look at everything. No, I'm still eating Cheetos for lunch. I believe that getting into the apps in a smart way and in a way that you are prepared with information and you just try it out. I think it's an important part of if you really want to not die alone or you want to meet someone. So can you talk about what's going on with the apps right now and some best practices?

Yeah, absolutely. And so I come at this from a couple different ways. So as a dating coach, I was working with people one on one. And so somebody would come down and they would show me their profile, and I would give them feedback on their pictures, or I would watch them swipe and I would say, why did you say to no to that guy? And the woman would say, well, he works at a big tech company, and I don't like anyone who works in tech. And I would just see the assumptions that people made. I would see how people rushed through their messages. And I saw a lot of the mistakes that people were making on apps. I also was aware of some of my clients, especially some of my black female clients, how much trouble they were having on the apps. And so I really saw a lot of the ways that dating apps were turning us from relationshipers, people looking for relationships, into relationshippers, people who are treating a potential partner like a potential purchase. And so I had a lot of skepticism of dating apps. Then I went to interview Justin McLeod, who's the CEO of Hinge, for my book, and I was basically like, your tagline is designed to be deleted. And I just don't believe that what company that spends so much money trying to attract new customers, what company is trying to get those people to delete their app? And he was like, I promise you, this is real. Ever since we changed our focus to be on relationships and deleting the app, we've exploded. And that's because even if you lose a customer because they got into a relationship, well, they're going to tell five of their friends. Hinge is where you go to find that relationship. And they've been doing really well. Ever since. And so that's why I decided to join them, because I was like, oh, this is the app that is actually helping people not turn it into a game, not turn it into just a hookup. But actually it's where you go when you want to find someone. And so I do see a lot of flaws with the apps. I do think that it makes people more superficial. It makes people more focused on looks, height, income, age. It really emphasizes those things. But what we know is that meeting online is the number one way that people are getting into relationships these days. And that's been true for the last few years. And so when you're thinking about being on the apps, here are a few tips. One is, your profile really matters. This is your only chance to make a great first impression. Sometimes people just rush through the process of making their profile because they're like, all right, I'm gonna do it. I downloaded the app. All right, my six latest photos. This is gonna be my profile. But no, you really wanna spend time having great photos that show different side of yourself, that are flattering, that are accurate. The other thing is your dating app profile is basically your opening line. It's what people respond to. And so you wanna put stuff on there that is specific, that is unique to you. And so instead of saying, I like to cook, you could say, every Sunday night, I make my Italian grandmother's marinara sauce. And then somebody can engage with you on Italy, on your grandma, on pasta, things like that. So you really want to be specific. You want to avoid cliches like, I love the office. Everybody loves the office. You know, I like traveling, Everybody loves traveling. And you really want to stand out, be specific, and create a lot of bait that somebody can respond to and engage with you on. And so you can have a great conversation.

So good. Is there anything just about photos? Like, certain photos you should include, not include.

Yeah, I do include some stuff about that in my book. But I also have done even more updated research since being at Hinge.

Okay.

And so I'll talk about some of that updated research. And so one of them is that this is not going to sound mind blowing, but you'd be surprised how many people get this wrong. And so your first photo should be a clear photo of your face, a headshot, something where we can see you. No filters, no sunglasses, no group photo where we can't tell who you are. You know, the last thing you want is that bridesmaid photo where you're like, which one of the women in sage green are you? You Know, at that point, who cares?

Exactly.

Yeah. Give me a break. You want to have at least one photo that shows your full body. That's something that people are looking for. One where you're doing an activity you love is really helpful. People love to see you in action. I think people often look the most beautiful when they're presenting, when they're on stage, when they're hiking, when they're really in the moment of their favorite activity. And then you do want a group photo of some kind, whether it's with your family or with some friends, because that shows people that you have an active social life.

That you have a life.

Yeah, that you have a life. And then things to avoid are selfies, mirror selfies, gym selfies, filters, sunglasses, smoking photos. Those are things that turn people off and just don't lead to connection. And so really you want to think about the fact that you're showing somebody different sides of yourself. If you're really silly, then show me at least one photo where you're wearing a goofy Halloween costume. Or if you're really passionate about teaching, then, you know, show us a photo of you leading a workshop. Because this is your chance to say, this is who I am.

So this is. This is really helpful. The other things that we're doing wrong on the apps, for example. Well, I know that you swiped left on your husband.

Yeah.

So what was that about? Because you were not where you're at now. You were like, oh, he's not right for me. So you kind of did it. You've lived. You've lived the work.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, absolutely. And I really try to be as open and self deprecating in the book around my bad habits, my anxious attachment style, my habit of chasing after people who weren't interested in me. I tell the story in the book of Burning Man Brian, the guy who.

You know, I had a birdie man Brian.

Right. And it's really fun.

Oh, my God. I used to be a birdie man. For years. I had a million birdie man brides. Or maybe I was like a birdie man Brian too. Like, I was always the one. I have been. I've been at all. But no, tell the story and we'll get into attachments now.

Sure. I mean, it's. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's all combined. And so my now husband and I, we met in college when we were 19. We had one lunch together. We know this because we're Facebook friends. And around seven years after that, I saw him on Tinder. I remember exactly where I Was. And I just said, he's not smiling. He's wearing a backwards cap. He just kind of looks like a not happy bro. Not for me. And I swiped left. Then I ended up having this lunch at Google where we both worked. And I organized this alumni lunch. And he came and I was talking about how I was trying to learn this statistics programming language. And he said, I just dropped out of a math PhD. Obviously, you know, we're very nerdy. And he said, I'll tutor you in it. And so he started tutoring me in this language called R. But even though I was drawn to him and I felt like there was a connection, I immediately wrote him off because of two things he said. He said, I don't like people who go to Burning man, and I don't like international travel. Meanwhile, I had gone to Burning man for the fourth or fifth time, and I had this amazing whirlwind romance with this hot guy who looked like Keanu Reeves. Better looking younger brother. And we just had this incredible week together. And I was so sure that when we got back to San Francisco, where we both lived, that it would turn into something. And he wasn't interested. I can say that now, but at the time, you know, sometimes he was interested, sometimes he was not. We would go to dinner, would he text me? Would he not? And at the time, I was just so addicted to the chase. I was like, anybody who's not interested in me must be better than me. And I'm gonna convince him to fall in love with me. And look, I'm gonna add value to going to coach you on your career. And I'm going to buy you the book. What color is your parachute? And I had all these ideas of how I was going to convince him to love me. Anyway, it did not work because he wasn't interested. And you can't force somebody to love you. And so there was a really low point where he was making me so miserable. And I just said, enough is enough. And I hired a dating coach. And when I hired her, we did a bunch of exercises. But one of the exercises was, how do you want your partner to make you feel? And I wanted my partner to make me feel secured, desirable, attractive, loved. He didn't make me feel any of these things as Burning Man, Brian. He made me feel like I was always walking on eggshells. And I never knew what would happen, but I was like, wow, somebody in my life does make me feel this way. This guy from work, this guy Scott. And so we went from the tutoring to Talking on the phone more to having lunch at work once a week, to having lunch at work almost every day. And eventually I just said, hey, I don't have plans on Friday night. You know, you should ask me out. And it's almost the six year anniversary of that first date. And we were together for a while. We got married last summer. And it's just been incredible because not only was that dating coach able to help me see that Burning Man Brian made me feel bad, and I wanted to be with somebody who made me feel a different way. But also, Scott and I have been to Burning man multiple times. We've gone on lots of international trips. Right. Those reasons that I wrote him off, not only are those not that important of things in the first place, but people also change sometimes. Like, sometimes people just need to be exposed to different, more alternative ways of living. And then they open up to it. And so, you know, I think about who Scott was when we first met, and now we live in a commune with, you know, 12 other people. Right.

I read your New York Times. I was blown first off. I have so much to say about that too. And your husband, your story that you moved. I mean, I lived in San Francisco for 20 years, so I'm a San Francisco. Just so you know. Like, I feel like I get your vibe. No, but going back to this, that think of how people have been discarded because something they just say, like, maybe he's always just walked around being like, oh, Burning man people, we all have opinions like that that we say. We're like, I didn't really mean that. But people hang on to it. They listen. And so what you're talking about is kind of a slow burn, a slow build with him. Like, you got to spend time with him. It wasn't the, you know, we have to get into your, you know, fuck the spark. Like, yeah, I love fuck the spark. Hashtag. Do you hashtag FuckTheSpark?

Oh, yeah, FuckTheSpark is my favorite thing to chant. Yeah, My husband is absolutely the definition of a slow burn. And so the idea is that when people talk to me about dates, sometimes they say, I met up with her. She was great. We had a really good conversation, good date, not gonna see her again. Like, what are you talking about? Oh, I just didn't feel the spark. And so the spark has become this all encompassing term to mean I didn't feel that pang of instant chemistry. I didn't feel the fireworks. And people let so many amazing potential partners go because they have expectations of what a first date is supposed to Feel like, but it's just not true. There's a lot of myths around the spark. Right. You think that the spark can't grow. Well, we know that that's not true. Right. I knew my husband for eight years before we started dating, and the spark absolutely grew as I got to know him, as I saw the different sides of him. People think if I feel the spark must be a good thing. Also not true. Some people are just really sparky. You know, Emily, you might be very sparky. You might give a lot of people the feeling of the spark. Yeah. And then they're all like, oh, my God, Emily, we have a connection. And you may have a connection, but it's actually more. You give a lot of people that feeling versus is it a part of the dynamic? And so for the average person, it's understanding that that person might be very charismatic or attractive, and they give a lot of people the spark. It doesn't mean that the two of you are meant to be, which is what I learned with Burning Man. Brian. He was super sparky. He gave lots of girls that Burning Man a spark. But I got very confused. I thought it was this magical thing just for us. And then the last one is, if we have the spark, then it must be meant to be. And that's just not true. A lot of divorced couples had the spark, and it feels really good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is viable. And so the antidote to this idea of the spark is the slow burn. And that's understanding that many of the best people in life, the best people to hire, the best people to be friends with, the best roommates, the best romantic partners, take time to open up, take time to show you who you are. And Scott, my husband, is absolutely one of those people. He doesn't care what people think of him. He hasn't been on social media in four years. He's just not obsessed with making a great first impression. He's much more just living his life, doing what he thinks he should do. And so part of that means he's not very sparky, but he's an incredible partner. And once I could kind of unpeel once I could sort of peel the layers of the onion and see what was underneath, I realized what a good person he was. And so people out there, you know, the spark feels great. I totally get it. But when you're thinking about who to be with, you want to be with that slow burn person who's reliable, who's dependable, who's going to be there with you for the good and the bad, because that spark fades and then what do you have left?

Your sexual connection isn't going to fade. Something we need to prioritize and work on. But that initial spark of falling in love and all those things that. That is gonna. That's gonna change over time. It absolutely is. So people are protesting. Oh, but I tried. I tried and I went out with this person a few times. We're not saying that everybody you're gonna be able to turn a relationship to, but I guess what we're saying is what you advocate for in the book is just go on the second date, which is something that I totally believe in. We don't know unless it was horrible and they were like toxic and abusive and said things that made you feel awful. And if you're not sure. I have found that more so in my life. The relationships that have worked for me and the friendships are slow burns. They're just over time, 100%.

It's.

I'm just thinking about it sort of from a mathematical perspective. It's like instead of going on a hundred first dates and writing each of those people off, you know, go on 50 first dates and then 50 second dates. And you're much more likely to have one of those turn into something because somebody's gonna thaw out, somebody's gonna show you who they are. Somebody is going to open up a little bit more. And ever since my break book came out, I'm getting all these emails that say, I married the slow burn. I went on a date with a guy. I didn't really like him. I told my mom about him. My mom was like, he sounds great. Give another chance. And now we're married. And even one of the girls who works with me, it's been so cool just to see her start giving people more second chances. And I'm like, you are changing. You are changing your bad behavior. This guy who you think is boring, he's actually very secure, and you're just not used to that. But this is the guy who you want to choose.

Yeah. And that leads right into attachment styles, which I want to ask you about. A lot of us. You know, maybe this. This resonates dating somebody who's not available and who you. You're constantly into the chase. You're into the drama of the relationship, and we mistake that for love. We mistake that for so. And I love that you left the attachment styles in the book. I know you said somewhere like you weren't gonna talk about it in the book, but I think it's so important. It's so important. Yeah. It's like the way you describe attachment styles, I think is really gonna be helpful for sure.

Everyone.

Yeah. And as you alluded to, my publisher was like, why do you have to keep this chapter in here? Somebody can go read the book Attached. I was like, because it matters so much, because it changed my life, it changed my sister's life, it changed my client's life. It is one of the major keys that helps unlock the relationship you want to be in. And so you have to know about attachment styles. Also. For me, as a relationship scientist, this is one of the best researched aspects of the whole field. This is the real deal. It started with developmental psychology with babies and their primary caregivers. It applies to your grown up romantic relationships. And so this is truly backed by rigorous research. And so the idea is that people have different ways of being attached. And so one of them is called anxiously attached. This is somebody who has a fear of abandonment. They constantly want to reach out for connection and they want to be reassured that things are great. This is the friend who texts you a bunch of times who says, you know, did you land? Why didn't. Why haven't you texted me? Did you get to the concert? Where are you? Right. They're always afraid that somebody's gonna pull away. And so they're constantly reaching out to connect. And they can do this thing called protest behavior, which is send somebody 30 texts, get angry at them, and then turn their phone off. And they can go into this red zone where they're. They're really just in fight or flight mode. And they are just acting in this way where they're not really thinking, they're just reacting. Another type is somebody who's avoidant attached. This is the person who has a fear of being smothered. They think, if I get into a relationship with somebody, they're going to take up so much space, I'm going to lose my independence. And this is the friend who says, she's smothering me. I need to pull away. I need to focus on work. Or maybe they even come up with something like, oh, I'm going to break up with her because she pronounced the word picture picture. But who cares how you pronounce the word picture if that's an excuse you're using to pull away? And so the avoidant person feels like relationships are when they get smothered and they constantly have to defend their space. And then the third kind is somebody who's securely attached. And this is Somebody who's sort of the relationship hero. They are comfortable with intimacy, but they're comfortable with independence. And so what ends up happening is that even though 50% of the population is secure, those people get snatched up into relationships and they stay in them. And so what you have out there, what you have on the dating apps, is anxious people dating avoidant people. And so they reinforce each other's patterns. This is the anxious avoidant loop. Right? So this is what happened with Bernie, man. Brian. It's a quintessential story. I am anxiously attached, and I think when I date somebody, they pull away and I chase after them. And he thinks when I date somebody, they smother me, and so I need to gain my own space. And so we're dating each other, reinforcing each other's worst bad habits, and we're really hurting each other and ourselves. But when you date somebody secure, which is what happened to me with Scott, new patterns emerge. And I tell the story in the book of how Scott did something to bother me. I can't even remember, probably something silly. And I started texting him crazy, angry things. How could you do this? What's going on? Da, da, da, da, da. And I was like, I know what'll happen. We'll get into a fight. We'll text all these things, and, you know, that's what happens. And instead, he wrote back and said, sounds like this is something that we should discuss in person. And he wasn't gaslighting me. He wasn't saying, this isn't real. He said, I can tell you're upset, and this is a conversation for in person. And that was a critical moment because he broke my pattern. Something different happened. And instead of going down that path, a new pattern emerged. And so I have learned so much about how to be in relationships, how to be secure, how to not get into that anxious attachment red zone by being with somebody who is secure. And so we can't all find secure partners, but we can work on knowing our attachment style, understanding our triggers, and doing our best to actually stop ourselves from these really harmful patterns before they start.

That's great. What would be a tip for avoidant attached people in dating?

I think one of the big things is just understanding your pattern. And so when you hear yourself saying, this quality of hers is so annoying, and I just think, I'm ready for something else. Say, I know why I'm doing that. I'm doing that to make an excuse to pull away. And does that thing really matter? Is that a pet peeve or Is that a deal breaker? And just understanding that although your brain may be focusing on one thing and you may be telling yourself this isn't the right person, what actually might be going on is that you're afraid of getting close to somebody. So part one is just being aware of that. And I think part two is understanding that being with a secure partner is a really great thing. And I have a lot of friends, especially male friends, who are avoidant, and they got into that anxious, attached loop. And the only women they dated were women who would put time on their calendar and insist on being with them and this and that. And I said, you need to actually go after what you know you want, and you need to figure out who you are and what you're looking for. And actually for avoided people, being more proactive helps them feel more in control and helps them feel more satisfied with their matches.

Right, Exactly. And I guess, too, avoidant people aren't necessarily attracted to each other. And two anxious people probably wouldn't work either.

Right.

So it's sort of.

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't work. And then. But you can change. What I love is it takes work. Just like everything takes work if you want to just get on a dating app or you want to just start dating. I mean, it's. It all takes a little bit of work. And I love that you have such great tips in here about how to actually change your behavior. You can recognize yourself in this book in so many places and start to make the change. You know, you talk about Hinge. I know that you are working there. This was not even at all about that. You wrote this great book, but people love Hinge because it actually gives you the opportunity to interact in different ways. Right. Like, there's a lot of different entry points rather than you're not just swiping.

Yeah, that's. That's a big differentiator. Hinge's whole thing is that it's not swiping. It's not about. It's not a game. It's not how many people can like me. And so a couple things that are cool about Hinge. One is you have this profile with photos. You can have photo captions which kind of turn it into like a. Like a meme. And you have to answer these prompts, things like, my ideal plus one to a wedding date, or if you really knew me, things like that. And so you have to actually look at somebody's profile and either like or comment on a specific part of it. Right. Instead of just swiping. And that helps lead to good conversation. Hinge also has this cool thing called We Met, where after we have connected people and it seems like maybe they've gone on a date, we send them a message, you know, did you go out with this person? Is this the type of person you'd like to go out with, with again? And that really helps Hinge figure out, okay, how can we match you with more people? Are we doing a good job of creating connections? And so there's really an emphasis on, are these matches turning into dates and into relationships versus just how many people can we get? Spending as many minutes as possible on the app?

Such great features for the app. And thank you so much, Logan Urie, for being here. I'm going to ask you the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. All right, what is your biggest turn on?

Good listener, Biggest turn off?

Somebody who's a tool. Like, somebody who cares too much about what other people think of them.

What makes good sex?

Knowing your own body.

Something you tell your younger self about sex in relationships.

If you aren't comfortable, leave.

What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

Oh, I love this question.

Yeah, same thing. You know, get to know your own body and communicate and learn to ask for what you want.

Love it. Thank you so much, Logan. How could people find you?

Yeah. Emily, first of all, thank you for having me. This was so fun. You're so good at what you do.

Thank you, Logan. You are, too. I mean, your book is delightful. It's insightful. It's gonna really impact people and get them on a track that even if you're in a relationship, I think it's gonna be such a great tool for so many. So thank you for your book.

I'm excited.

Yeah.

So.

So people can, of course, buy my book, how to Not Die Alone, wherever great books are sold. On my website, loganyerie.com, i have that three dating tendencies quiz. People can sign up for my newsletter and then I'm on Instagram and Twitter. Loganearie.

Thank you for being here, Logan.

Thank you.

You are fabulous. Yeah.

Thank you, Emily.

That's it for today's episode.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily and be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, tick tock, Twitter or X and Facebook. It's all Sex with Emily. Oh, and I've been told I give really good email, so sign up on sex with emily.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. And if you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating or relationships, call my hotline 559-TALK SEX. That's 559-825-5739 or just go to sex with emily.com askemily Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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