Financial Kinks with Sexpert Emily Morse

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Hey guys, are you ready for some money rehab?

Wall street has been completely upended by.

An unlikely player, GameStop.

And should I have a 401k? You don't do it. No, I know girl.

You think the whole world revolves around.

You and your money.

Well, it doesn't charge for wasting our time. I will take a check with a old school.

You recognize her from anchoring on cnn, cnbc, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lapin.

I don't want to give away any spoilers, so all I'll say is that I had a bizarre experience that I was looking to decode. And the person who is best suited to decode said experience is my friend who is a sex therapist, Emily Morse. Are you intrigued? Well, let's get into it. Emily, I am so happy to say this. Welcome to Money Rehab.

So good to be here. Thank you for having me. Congrats on your show and all the success.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, I feel like I've been on your show and so it's nice to have you come on mine and welcome you into my digital home. You know, on the show, of course, you know, that we're really interested in money, but of course, how money intersects with all the things, politics, relationships, psychology, everything. A few weeks ago, we had a sugar baby on the podcast to talk about the economics of sugaring. And that really got us interested in the intersection of sex and money. So you are the perfect person to do the sex part, because that's not my jam. I mean, it is, but not my expert jam. So when my producers and I were talking about this, I told them that I had someone reach out to me asking me to be their fin dom. And my producers had never heard of that term before. So as a sex therapist and overall sexpert, can you give us the definition?

Yeah, I mean, f essentially is think about, like, bdsm. A lot of people know what that is. Like power play, dominant submissive play. So fin dom is financial domination, where the sub is somebody who is looking for. In many cases, we, you know, it's a man in this world where they're looking for someone to dominate them financially. Meaning they control their finances. They do a budget for them. They are, you know, so instead of using ropes or ties or blindfolds, the money becomes the factor that they are dominating with it.

So this guy reached out to me, saying he just wanted to put $10,000 in my PayPal account, which is different in nature than some of the other weirdos I've received emails from. We've all received some weirdo emails. So the ladies in my office said, can I take the $10,000? And I was like, listen, I don' anything to do with this. So if you want to reach out, then go for it. And at that point, I started getting interested by this.

This was legit.

This guy wanted to just give me $10,000. He said, no strings attached whatsoever. And as we explored it, I was fascinated by this psychology. So as a sexpert, what is the psychology behind someone who's seeking out a financial dominant?

Well, first, I want to say you'd probably be really good at being a fin dom because you'd be really great at setting their budgets and telling them how they can spend their money and how they can't spend their money. So they probably would. You would be a natural if you ever decided to get into it. But if you think about financial debt, it's sort of a fetish lifestyle. Like, we're saying, like, it's like dominant submissive play. But the reason why it's so arousing is because. And there's a few factors. It's the surrendering of power. It's saying you're going to dominate me. Like that's the arousing part. And usually I don't speak in genders, but we're just going to say here that it is typically men who do this. I'm just going to say that it's men who are, you know, told from a young age. We're supposed be the breadwinners. We have the money, we care for everything. And then there's something very arousing about the flip side of that. You know, we measure our worth with money. And then to say, I'm going to weaponize my money, I'm going to use it as something that's kinky and then create this intimacy in a way with somebody who is. We're giving up our powers, we're giving up our, our control to somebody. For many people, the reason why they access something like they'll do something like BDSM or bondage. You know, people know what BDSM is or power play is because we are in an exchange with somebody and we're to access a part of our emotions that we're not able to otherwise. So there's the adrenaline rush. There's a lot that happens when we are giving up control of something. And even though that we know it's wrong, we're sort of fetishizing our money. If so there's sort of an addiction that some of these people can have over this self destructive behavior of giving up their money.

Yeah, I looked this person up because I thought, wait a minute, this guy just has 10 grand to casually throw into my paypal account. Like who is he? He must have a lot of money. But no, he didn't have a lot of money.

I looked him up, he was like.

In this random town. Didn't look like the guy had ten grand to be just giving to me. And so it was a lot of money to him. Which is not initially what I thought. I thought he was just like flush with cash, not the case. And there was no sexy stuff involved. So the arousal didn't come from ever what, meeting me or.

The thing is, in most of these cases with fin doms and the sub, there's no meeting. They don't ever meet. It's a cycle. It's almost like self induced psychological torture. And I think that a lot of fandoms get into this because the fin doms or the Finn subs, it's due to like low self esteem, inability to deal with in their normal life about rejection, humiliation. It's Almost like cuckolding, which is another thing that we talk about when men have this fantasy of seeing their wife have sex or their partner have sex with somebody else, it's almost something happens. And this is like the understanding of arousal in this moment. The shame and the, and the humiliation flips itself and it actually becomes arousing and a turn on. Like the moment he's wiring you the PayPal money, he's like, that is a turn on. I've just done this exchange that's penetrating into my deep psyche and it's arousing. So to me, for many it can be an addiction because a lot of times they'll do that and then they feel sort of a regret after if it's an adrenaline and a high and a low. But for some men, because again, nothing here is so black and white. For some it's just, it's an arousal. They have enough money to do it. They make sure they don't get into too hot water. Like they're not declaring bankruptcy, but they're in a relationship where it's the psychological arousal of feeling humiliated and feeling submissive. Maybe every other area in their life, these men are dominating, they have high powered jobs, they're, you know, home with their wives. They're like doing all of these things in their life where they're in control. And if they can create a situation with just pretty low stakes in the sense of they're not going to get an STI or an std, it's not really cheating, although in some cases it can be, but it's a psychological exchange that goes on online where they are feeling this deep arousal.

Gotcha. So no, thank you for clarifying and thank you for going there to the actual, like, what happens with the physical arousal, because I was wondering, you know, if he's transferring PayPal money to me, is he literally getting hard or having an orgasm or like, how is that? I can't imagine that being pleasurable, but I suppose it is the thing.

It's a kink. Many of us have kinks. We're into, you know, voyeurism or ex. We want to watch people have sex outside or we really are kinky. We like wearing certain things in the bedroom or we like to think certain thoughts to get us turn on. And so like financial domination isn't even really transactional, which is kind of funny to think it's sort of, that is the kink. So the arousal is the act of them sending the money, but they're not expecting anything from you in return. But it's not that any woman could just. It's not just a woman saying, you better give me money or you're an asshole. Like, there's a whole art to the form of being a. A dump, being a Finn, being the dominant part of this.

What is the art for it? Because I'm sure some women are listening, like, I want to do it. Wait a minute. What's the fucking catch here? I want 10 grand in my account for not ever meeting somebody.

It's a little bit of, like, acting, you know, how to escalate, you know, to do the power play. Like, you're only going to give me a hundred now. Well, you know, I know you have more than that. Give me a thousand. I mean, you give me, you know, and, you know, you understand the psychology. You mean, maybe you probably need some really great improv. And if you were like a phone sex operator and you have taken some improv classes or you knew something about money, you know, that might be the great trifecta there of you being an expert in it. But, you know, it's sort of. It is a practice just like anything else. Like, I. I think it's about understanding psychology, understanding the levels of what's going to get somebody to. And being able to stick. Go through the motions. Like, if you have fear and you're like, give me a thousand dollars. And the guy says, no. You're like, okay, but you have to keep playing with them. You have to keep messing with them. Like, and you have to be able to insult somebody. You have to be able to literally dominate them and say, you're, you know, you're just a. You know, you're. Whatever you would say. I don't know. How much do you want me to swear? Like, you're a pussy.

Go for it. You're a piece of shit. Like, give me more money, you asshole.

I don't know if you're an asshole. Give me money. Like, if you don't be bribing. Like, if you don't give me money, I'm going to tell your wife, I'm going to tell your kids. I'm going to tell your family.

I'm also some casual extortion, too.

It is extortion, but it's like. It's sort of like. It's extortion that is consensual. It's like consensual extortion.

Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money Rehab will be right back.

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Now for some more money Rehab sue have you spoken to women who are just financial dominance? Or are there women who are like general dominance who do all of the domination.

I've spoken to all of them. There's dominatrix, there are women who are just financial doms. And especially during the pandemic when no one could leave their house anyway, we saw a rise in fin doms, we saw a rise in b people being able to. To do this across all platforms. It became more where you thought it was a little bit more private or you had to have a. You know, it was a secretive account or you didn't want anyone to know. Now they have full on like Twitter accounts, Instagram, maybe not Instagram because they're more restrictive about this stuff. But yeah, they have full on profiles and they're open about it. And. And the difference is that I think with a lot of dominant matrixes, just a regular dom, you probably would see them in person. You know, it's the picture we have with the woman in the leather boots and the whips and humiliating in either way, they're still humiliating their subjects for whatever. It could be with pain, it could be with, you know, spanking or pain or ropes or chains, or it could be with emptying their bank account.

Like getting the access to the bank account. That, that's, that's part of this giving over your passwords.

That's the part of the loss of control too. It's almost like if someone said to you, could you imagine ever giving up your password? But it's such. This moment of deep.

Of.

Of like, I can't believe I'm doing this. It's like a thrill. It's a dre. Think of like a. The things that you've done that are so adrenaline seeking. Things that you. For some people, it's like jumping off a bridge or it's, you know, skydiving or it's taking risks, getting up in public speaking. But for these people, it's. For these people that engage in this, it's literally like, I can't believe I'm doing this. I'm giving up my passwords, I'm giving up the most per. My life could be ruined. And yet at the point of doing it, I'm so aroused. It's literally that intersection of holy, I'm giving some of my money to like, I did it. And that turn on. They get turned on, they get aroused, it's addictive and they can't stop doing it.

So what kind of advice would you give someone to make sure that they're structuring this relationship to be safe and healthy, like having safe words. Maybe that whole. I'm thinking of the scene in fifty Shades with the contract. I mean, do you even go that far?

I would say if you're getting into a relationship with somebody like this and you're giving them all of your passwords, all of your money, that you absolutely should have a contract. You should have a safe word. You should. I mean, otherwise this could go get really bad really fast. So my. I'm assuming that, yes, have a contract, have rules of engagement, check in often.

We also talked on the show about sugaring. I didn't even know that that was a verb or a gerund or whatever you call it. We spoke with a woman who calls herself a sugar babe, which is also new terminology to me because I've only heard this sugar baby idea. And when we spoke with her, she said that she considered herself in a.

Relationship with her sugar daddies.

And she's only dated sugar daddies, no other guys. Is that the norm? That really surprised me.

There is no norm here with that. I mean, I think that sugar daddies, she's not dating anyone else and yet. And she's just dating them. Well, it depends what she.

Yeah, she calls them.

Her boyfriends.

Well, maybe she's got some intimacy, but she's some intimacy challenges where she's not really looking for a deep emotional connection. And to have a man who's taking care of her, all of her needs financially might just. Just be enough. But I also know some people who are sugar daddies, sugar babies, and they have a sugar daddy, and they actually, you know, have a boyfriend at home, and they just have an arrangement with the sugar daddy who pays their rent every month or who buys them school supplies or whatever, you know, for college or whatever else they need. So I think that in these arrangements that the main thing is that there's, you know, it's the dominance. There's someone in control and there's someone submissive. And money is the same. Money is the factor. So I would say that you could calm your boyfriend. You could just say you're your sugar daddy. You could not tell. I know people who do it. They don't tell any of their friends. Right. They don't even tell their boyfriend. Sometimes. I don't advise that, but I think that it's a way that for some men who are in this role, maybe they never had a daughter, or maybe they had a strained relationship with their daughter, and they felt that there's some healing thing in here, but they also find this person attractive. And for some women, you know, maybe it's. They have a father. Ish. You Know, father challenges, they find that kind of hot to be taken care of. And so it really is. This is where it's a transactional, consensual relationship where you have a contract. This is what it's about. You're going to pay my rent, I'm going to go to the movies with you once a week. You know, I think that every single one of these relationships, I think the main factor is that there's money involved and there's somebody taking the money. But in the healthiest ones, you really have to walk through, what's our contract, what's our deliverables, what can we expect? And for some, there's no emotions. For some, there's no sex. For some it's just transactional. So I think people have to understand, like, there's not. You get to decide if you go into this relationship, you get to decide what you want. Sort of the Wild West.

And all of it's unique, as you say. Everything is individual. I have been really surprised, though, the more I've looked into sugaring and the economics of sugaring and who these women, who these men are or, you know, every permutation in between, that a lot of these women are like boss bitches.

Yeah.

Lawyers or executives or who want to be sugar babies.

What feels really good to be taken care of. Sometimes it feels good to be in that submissive role where you feel that, you know, listen, it's the same thing for some of these men. If you're a boss bitch and you're out there every day, you're running your company, you're running your business, you got a lot going on, and there's somebody who's going to take care of you even if you don't need the money. But it's somebody just sort of doting on you, or they are, you know, just showing up for you in ways that other people in your life aren't. And you get to be submissive, you get to kind of relax for a minute and be like, okay, babe, you got this amazing. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I'm more submissive, too. In my life, being the boss and doing all the things, I'm dominant. But, like, you get me in the bedroom, I'm like, I'm out. I've been doing this all day. Like, I'm active, don't get me wrong. But I don't wanna necessarily take control. I can tell you what's gonna happen and what we should probably do, but then you can take the lead on it. And I think that's really common that we don't usually go through life in the same state. All the times, and especially when it comes to sex, sometimes there's this switch.

Yeah, you and I have talked about this in the past and totally. I couldn't agree with you more. I obviously am a boss bitch. I wrote the book boss bitch. And yet I want to really be in that feminine energy in my romantic relationship. Like, I don't want to pay on a first date. I don't even want to look. I don't want to see the check. And that's just my choice. Doesn't mean I can't pay for it. I can. I could pay for all the meals in the whole restaurant. I could probably pay for the restaurant, but that's my choice. And I don't care what other women want to do. That's your prerogative. I think being the ultimate feminist is not telling other women what to do like you do you girl. But as a sex therapist, what are some of the other common issues you see money play in relationships?

Money is probably one of the hugest factors. I would say money and kids and sex are three of the main factors that most couples have challenges around. And for money, it's because we're not completely honest. Sometimes we don't disclose. If we have debt, we don't disclose, you know, what we want, our aspirations, financially. We have different views on how we each want to spend our money. And we don't talk about this before we get married and commingle our finances. I think it also goes back to your family of origin. If you grew up in a home where money was tight and your parents were much more restrictive, and then you're with somebody who's like a big spender and they're always, you know, spending money kind of, you know, sort of flippantly, and you become a saver. Like, there's all these conflicts in the way that we handle money. So I think it's that coming being raised with different values around money. When you get into a relationship with somebody and we don't often talk about these things before we get married, which is kind of crazy, or get into a relationship, that can really be a problem if you have different views, like your, your partner's, you know, splurging on, you know, a new car, and you're like, but we still need to put away money for the kids education. We haven't talked about any of this. So I always recommend to couples that these are the things that you need to clear before you move in together. What are our values towards money? What do we.

What do we.

What do we value? Do we want to save? Do we want to spend? Do you want to spend on vacation? Some couples say we just want to spend on experiences, but not on things, you know, it's just. It's just really our. Yeah. Our values around money.

What recommendations do you have for couples who need to talk about money issues, especially if they're nervous, which most of them are.

Are. I think that you could use my three T's conversations. An awkward conversation, timing, tone and turf. You want to have the conversation at the right time. It's not when you're hungry and angry and lonely and tired and pissed at your partner. You want to do it when it's. So the timing is when you're casual, you're hanging out, and your tone is light and curious. Let's talk about money. I realize we've never really had a real conversation about money. And the turf is somewhere. Like, not when you're sitting down at the kitchen table with your money spread out and you're about to like. It's like, really? When you are like. And I say, I want to talk about our financial situation because I realized that lately, I know there's. There's some debt. We haven't really talked about it. And I'm feeling like I would really like to have a growth mindset around money and around connecting with you about money. This is not something I've had before. And would you be willing to. To kind of go on a journey with me to figure out the healthiest ways for us to. To be, you know, to be together and have, you know, healthy finances as well.

For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. We've been enjoying reports on money topics.

That live at the intersection of other disciplines and don't get a lot of attention. Like money and sex, money and politics, money and relationships, social justice, and many more. If there are any topics that you want to learn more about DM me on instagramoneyrehabshow or email us at moneyrehabicoleappin.

Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoy and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson. Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team.

Michelle Lands for her development work.

Katherine Law for her production and writing magic. And Brandon Dickert for his editing, marketing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for.

Finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.