From Sexploration to Sexplanation with Pamela Madsen

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Restrictions apply. So we talk about having the sexual authenticity model. So having women explore, you know, what are their values? What have they been trained with? Like, what do they believe in? So if my value is monogamy, right? That's my value. What is your desire? So maybe my desire is to have many more lovers and many more experiences. So value, what's your value? And what's your desire? People can, you can do this at home. What are your values? What are your desires? Then what's your behavior? And what you really want is to help people, men and women. Of course, we must be working with women, align. What their value is, with their desire, with their behavior, and then they're living an authentic sexual life.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. This is Dr. Emily Morse, and on today's show, I'm joined by founder and CEO of Back to the Body Sensuous Retreats for Women, Pamela Madsen, to talk about all the ways women can unlock their sexual potential. Topics include: you probably don't have low libido. What you really might have is high boredom. Ways to figure out exactly what you like in the bedroom, and it isn't your typical sexploration. So what is muffining and how can it benefit you? And games you can play with your partner that will definitely take your sex life up a notch. All this and more. Thanks for listening.

Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions.

Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend?

My man E here, he just got his heart broken.

He thinks you're kind of cute. A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my.

Do women know about shrinkage? Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks.

Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me?

Oh my God, it feels so good.

Being bad feels pretty good.

But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. Check out our website for more information at sexwithemily.com because you're gonna And love all the posts we have up there. I'm so excited to welcome Pamela Madsen to the show. She's the founder and CEO of Back to the Body. It's essentially sensuous retreats for women. She gives women permission to have the pleasure that they deserve and are capable of in a safe space surrounded by the power of sisterhood. And she's been an activist for over 30 years and founder of the first executive director of the American Fertility Association. So you've been working in this field helping women forever, reproductive freedom for all women. She's appeared on 3,000 media outlets, Oprah, CNN, New York Times, Huffington and others, and I read her book, Shameless: How I Ditched the Diet, Got Naked, Found True Pleasure, and Somehow Got Home in Time to Cook Dinner. It's called Shameless. Pamela, you can find her at backtothebody.org, and then all her socials are going to be listed in the show notes right now. Because I just want to get talking to you. I'm so excited. Pamela, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

We just met face to face yesterday. I was so excited to get to go to one of your retreats. It was a teaser.

It was a teaser.

It was foreplay for the big Back to the Body retreats.

It was just to give women a sense of the taste to meet us. We're doing really cutting-edge work with women. So women really need a lot of foreplay.

We do.

And so, and to feel safe, because all this talk about orgasms and this and that and what women, you know, what women can do with their bodies, nothing's going to happen until women feel safe. So the portals are an opportunity for those women who really feel like they need to come and meet us in the flesh and see some of the work. But some women, you know, join us through consultations and Zoom calls and all that. But you came to a Portal and they're special and they have live demos. And it was super fun to have you.

It was really fun to be there. And so I just want to pull one of your quotes. Speaking of foreplay, women fake orgasms because men fake foreplay. Yes, I love that quote. And I mean, I just think that, that it really was an exceptional day. My friend Dolly Josette, she's been on the show before and she held— she has a great space that she just built. There was 50 women there. And you walk in and it's— I didn't really know, but I heard a little bit about you. Pam Costa was also on the show if you guys want to check out her interview, and she said she went away with you and had these amazing experiences. She's also a somatic sex therapist, and I didn't know much what to expect except I did read your book about your journey, which I love, about your, um— but yesterday I saw you on the table do a demonstration where you were in your body naked in front of the room having pleasure.

Amazing.

Amazing. I mean, essentially, it was really incredible to see that and very empowering and inspiring. Now, I also, I came in and told my assistant about it and she was like, I don't know if I'd be prepared to see that. And I get it. Because it's, and I think people there had been primed. They weren't coming in off the street. But it was a really beautiful message. And a lot of your messaging is around getting into your body, loving your body, I think it's a lifelong process of healing our relationship with our body and learning to love it, but really allowing yourself to receive pleasure. Because women have been— that's the whole thing, is that we have such a hard time, um, receiving, letting ourselves be in our bodies, receive pleasure without feeling like, what do I have to give back? What do I have to give? What do I have to give? And some women never get to where you are on that table. It's very aspirational for many women. So how do we explain that? It was very vulnerable.

So it was— thank you.

And beautiful to watch.

Thank you. So it's a gift I give women because I believe that we have to see it to be it. And all women see are only a different kind of aspirational model around sex, which is always, um, the very younger woman. She's usually like 15, right, dressed up to look like she's 18 or 20, right, with the perfect body and the perfect lips. And actually, these women don't even look like themselves, right? Because we're also Photoshopped. So they're given these aspirational images that those are the women who get to have good sex, and that really our sexuality is through the male gaze. Exactly. It's like, how do we perform to look good so that our, our partner can be turned on by us, as opposed to how does it feel to be in our bodies? Can we be in our bodies with no excuses for our bodies? Can we be hot and erotic inside? And how do you bring that out? Now, how do you teach that to women? Well, a course, a book, you know, inspirational quotes on Facebook.

Well, yeah, a little, but it's love yourself today, right?

Even me talking here, I talk, I talk, but at some point, eventually, at some point, we women need permission. And a big part of the permission is to see a woman that they can relate to on some level, on some level, actually go there in a real way, who gets off her back. We teach something called table dancing. And we have women who come to these retreats up from 20, literally up to 93. I mean, it's like every decade. Yes. So you heard 3 different decades speaking of '40s, the '50s, and the '60s speaking speaking, who are graduates. So sometimes we'll have like 5 different decades of women at a retreat at one time, which is amazing. So yeah, are you ready to see it? Well, I don't know. Are you ready for anything? So, you know, how do you, how do you schedule and create an adventure in your life? My belief is that the reason why women often have low libido and lack of lubrication and lack of interest in sex. Emily, here's the secret: we're bored, right? We're bored out of our minds, right? And it's not just about us. Our partners are boring.

Everyone's bored. Yeah, they're boring, or we're not telling what we need. I love that you said it's, it's, um, it's not low libido, it's high boredom.

It's high boredom. And so having opportunities to have a safe sexual exploration where you're not having infidelity— I mean, the the COVID of my book. Right? I got home in time to cook dinner.

Let's talk about your journey because I think that we gotta back up for a minute of what we're saying. Like, you were 43 years old, and your husband was the first man you'd been with, married since you were 19 years old. I mean, which I think is very relatable to many people, just even just being with one person and having the same experience. And then you're like, something's not right here. And I love how you open up that you were the one, when your friends are talking about sex, you left the spa, you left the room to go do something else. It was uncomfortable. And then you had an awakening where you're like, no, there's got to be more from this. And you had to go on a journey to find this, but you're on, you're on this path. And so a lot of what you talk about is like that sexual adventure. Like just even people listening to this show in some sense is maybe the first step in their adventure. Cause people don't, we often are not, we don't think about sex. We think it should be great and better than it is, but we don't know what to do about it. And then maybe all we've seen is porn and then had mediocre sex in the bedroom. But if you think about our world today, there's not a lot more out there. So your step and yours, you went on an adventure in your 40s, early 40s.

I went on an adventure. I mean, this was in the time where open marriage and polyamory and monogamishy were not like household words. Okay. My friends were, were in my world cheating on their man because that's what That's what it was, right? Yeah, we didn't do poly then. And now we have— now people are doing all kinds of things. And I was, you know, I didn't want to do that. And so I stumbled upon a massage therapist at a high-class spa who I became friendly with. And he was gay, and he was telling me about how he kept things fresh with his hubby. And he was having these erotic experiences through erotic massage. And I almost knocked him unconscious.

What?

I was like, what? I could do that. Like, one-way touch, he keeps his clothes on. I could do that. And so I went looking for that. And for women at that time, it was as dry as a desert. There was nothing. It was absolutely nothing for women. And so I started like a happy ending.

Let's just say that, because men can go get happy, even though it's illegal. But I even had a friend text me a year ago, and she's not in a happy marriage. She's like, can I get a happy ending? Where do I go? And I'm like, I don't know where you go in LA, you know? So, right. But in a sense, it's actually much more deeper than that. For women, it's spiritual. It's not just getting— so let's just say that.

Yeah, it's way deeper than that. It's an opportunity for women to heal their body images and shed trauma and find out what their body wants and learn their— how to do boundaries and how to ask for what they want.

And it's really way more. I don't mean— I'm just saying the equivalent of it wouldn't even be available if that's what you wanted. Exactly.

Nothing was available if you were If you were a guy, you could have gotten like Genghis Khan's twin sisters to come over and tie you in a pretzel.

Exactly.

And they would bring burgers. But if you were a woman, forget about it. So I started to write to gay men. I love this. And I said, I know you're a gay guy, and I've got a vulva. How do you feel about vulvas? Do you know anything about vulvas? Would you like to work with me? And, you know, I found my way and had this incredible underworld adventure in the world of what we now name as sacred sexuality. And, um, you know, he opened the world to me and introduced me to all these people. And I eventually, um, took sexological bodywork training. And I was, you know, I had this really big job as the executive director of the American Fertility Association. I joke now and say I'm really good from the waist down. You know, it's just like, that's my specialty.

Wow, amazing.

Fertility, sexuality, right?

You are.

I mean, but really, so I mean, I left it.

And because it was trans, you had a transformation.

My everything changed. I had an eating disorder that left like immediately. I mean, I don't want to promise that to people, but for me, um, I healed my body. I healed my relationship with food. I still struggle with my body image, I think, but I work it. I I have enough good body image that I can take this size 14 body and strip it naked in front of a group of women and share myself and my, my erotic soul with you all. And I still work it. And they think it's unrealistic when people say, well, that's just going to go away and that's just going to go away and all you have to do is this, that. No, we live in a society where women are lambasted with all kinds of messages about who we are as women. And it's mostly about being a people pleaser and being in service. So what we don't teach women is how to receive. And through receiving, I was able to let go of a very long-standing eating disorder. And other women are able to heal various kinds of trauma and reclaim parts of themselves. So I don't know, Emily, how all this really works. What I know is that sexological bodywork, somatic touch in immersion settings is doing something extraordinary.

Well, I think we— it is, it's extraordinary. And I'm going to have you explain what sexological bodywork and somatic work is in a minute, because again, a lot of people don't know, don't know. But what I want to say first is that I don't know how it happens either, but I do have a strong belief that, that that we store so much emotions in our body. And a lot of us from a young age, we've had trauma, like with a small T or a capital T. Capital T or a big T. I always say that too. It's like we had a lot of the same yesterday listening to you because I was there all day at your retreat. And I was like, yeah, I get everything you're saying. And I can talk to people all day, but I think there is a part of movement. Movement is medicine and healing our pelvic floor when we're clenching. Like, I think I have back pain. I think a lot of it has to do with some pelvic floor stuff we have. We clench as women, we tense up, we stress, and we don't. And so doing work and talk therapy has been amazing. I've been in talk therapy and lately I've been in EMDR therapy, but there's something to be said for movement and release. And that release can come through deep trauma in your body, uh, releasing orgasms. Like you talk about your G-spot experience and a lot of women are just like, no, I'm fine with the clitoris. But I think that life is an exploration too. And I think they always say you're peeling back the layers of your psyche, but I think your sexuality is also like, it's like pulling back the layers of an onion when you're doing therapy. But I think for sex work, I think I'm never done learning either. And so yesterday is like another layer to see where women could really go. And I think it's, it's a missing part of it. Like you could learn to have orgasms and you could hear me talk and do books and do research. But until you do that work, I always tell women, your partner's not going to give you an orgasm. You know, guys call in, how can I get my partner to do this or that? You're not like, she's got to get there on her own. Like you could help her, but first women have to realize that like pleasure is their birthright. What do they want? Letting go what they have to give to anyone else. But you actually, you're teaching this to women like hands-on. And I think that's, that's pretty amazing.

Because until a woman can feel free enough in her body to move her body and be seen in her body, it's awfully hard for her to teach her partner what she likes when she's hiding under the covers, right? Because she's in shame about her body. And so we start with the woman. Yeah, we do a couples retreat. Yes, we do private couples retreats. And but they're almost beside the point. The point really is, is working with women to bring them back to their bodies so that they can get on their knees, so they can, you know, we're taught to lay on our backs, we're taught to close our legs. We're not taught to find our yes, Emily. We're taught to find our no. We're taught to say, no, you can have that. No, really, that, you know, that piece of lobster is for you. I'm okay over here. I'll have like this little piece of potato. You take the best piece of that. We're not used to taking the piece for ourselves. We're not used to taking money from the family, right? Or that should be somehow put away or for our college education, for our children, or whatever it is.

We don't deserve vacation or time off. We're being a bad parent or a bad mom. We mom shame. And then sexually, we don't deserve orgasms as long as our partner gets off, as long as he's pleased, then we've done our job.

Right.

Orgasm might come, never.

Right.

So if you say later, but I love just shifting that whole narrative where I think it's such important work that I mean, I'd love to see women of all ages doing that kind of work. And I know that they need it because why go spend— like, because a lot of the women, I think you say you have all ages, but I would think it's more women in their late 30s and 40s, 50s perhaps. So, or maybe not.

Well, I know, I know. I would tell you that the main, the main bell curve is 40s, 50s, 60s. But I will also tell you, at every retreat there will be a 20-something and there'll be a 30-something, and there could be a woman in her 70s. And my mother came, and she's 93. And my mother said that if she can do this at 93, then what's your excuse? And what I loved is that when I put it on Facebook that my mom came, you got a huge response on Facebook. And people said things like how wonderful that you took your mother And my mother responded and said, yes, it was a beautiful invitation from my daughter. I took myself. Yeah, I took—

tell me, at 93, what was her experience like? Did she have—

she had everything.

Orgasms?

She had— she had everything. Wow. She had everything. And she's— and a part of it was I loved some writing that she had done, and she was sort of like for everyone, where she said, I was at the beach— uses a metaphor And I thought the ocean wave would be too hard, and the sand would be too hot, and the wind would blow me over, and my bag would be too heavy. But I got there, and the water was just right, and my toes sunk into the sand, and my bag was perfect. And then I walked back to tell my girlfriend, and she looked up from the book and went, "Oh, that's interesting." and put her eyes down. And what my mother was trying to say was we have fear of the unknown, and if we're willing and if we go there, we will find that whoever we are and whatever our story is, that we'll be nurtured by the ocean. And if you're a woman who just hears that and puts your nose back in your book then you're never going to have that experience. What a wise thing to say. Your mom, 93-year-old lady, and she had pleasure on her first time on the table. She had full pleasure. And when she walked in, she didn't know what to call us. There's— we call them sessions.

Yeah, we should explain what we're talking about here.

Sessions. So what we're talking about is one-way touch So women who come see me, who come to our retreats, they're mostly heteronormative women. We have bisexual women, and we have the occasional trans woman who identifies as female. So we're a women's retreat that bisexuality is welcome, but they're mostly hetero. Okay, so we have a lot of male bodyworkers. We do have female. They're fully dressed. They're sexological bodyworkers, which means—

let's talk about that for a second—

they have a code of ethics. So they're trained, they go to a program, they get certified, they keep their clothes on. When they do intimate touch, they wear gloves. We call it one-way touch, which means they are touching the client for the client's pleasure, not for their pleasure, not for their agenda, but working with the client to help her find her pleasure. They're like a Sherpa or a steward, and they're helping It's almost like a sex coach because you go in and you have intakes.

In your book, Shameless, which I think you guys saw in the show notes, you've got to check it out if you want. I just feel like this is so relatable to so many women's stories. Yeah, that you go in and they kind of like ask, you know, you start out where you're at, right? So what kind of— there's consent, there's talking about it first.

Well, the first thing that happens is they go through an intake with us, right? So it's usually with a woman, with me or a member of our team. And then if they decide that they're coming to a retreat I pair them like I'm like a sommelier, right, of like women with their practitioner. And then they have a Zoom call or a Skype call with their practitioner before the retreat starts. And then on the first day of the retreat, there is no bodywork. They meet with their practitioner and then they see demos and they get going. And so it's one-way touch and it's exciting and it's 5 days, it's immersion. And they have one session called Credo of the Masculine where they work with 2 practitioners and that's on day 4. And it changes lives. I don't know, you know, I thought that I was sort of building this place for women simply to find fun and exploration and freedom and safety. And we created something that was spiritual without intending to, and healing trauma without intending to. And, you know, all of these, you know, healing body shame and all these things that wasn't our intention but became the miracle of somatic touch. And you're right, Emily Morse, it's stored in our cells. And so sometimes women, when they're on the table, they cry.

I'm sure.

Or they laugh, or they scream. And what we tell them is, don't attach it to a story. It's old garbage that's in there. Just let it go.

Just feel it. I mean, I've learned the power of tears and crying and letting that stuff go and not getting into it is I mean, sometimes you have to do the talk around it, but in that moment, I love just let— feel it, let it go wherever. It doesn't have to mean anything in that moment.

And then we do what we call— it sounds really silly— we call it muffining. And what that is, so which is, is that we have, we have trained women who actually speak with the women before the session and talk to the practitioner. Maybe there are words that are hard to speak to the practitioner, easier to speak to a woman. And so then It's all shared and they know that.

Let's explain some kind of— give me an example of— because I'm trying to understand that. It's like a co— you meet with these men and what's the touch like? So first it would be like, I'm coming to heal about— you know, how would it start, for example? I know there's nothing typical, but what would she be telling her practitioner on that?

Well, she may be telling her sexual history. Yeah, and that all happens ahead of time and she fills out a form around— we, we have a whole process for this. So sexual history, medications, like all of that happens before. She gets to have a check-in there. She has a safe port, which is a woman who's assigned to her as her safe port throughout the entire retreat. And then the safe port— we're all in communication, the staff— and walks her in, and then she has time to talk with her practitioner and get on the table in any way that feels comfortable to get on the table. And some women don't get undressed right away, and some women are like, okay, let's go, right? Right. And some women are trying to find their orgasm, and some women are trying to heal vaginal pain, and some women are just trying to feel seen and healthy and good in their bodies. And they don't know what they don't know. And they're coming because they're saying, I need the chef's special because I don't know what I don't know.

We don't know.

Right. So could you just show me things and I'll let you know what feels good and what doesn't feel good? And they want to learn how to speak their requests. And the sessions are 90 minutes. And then when they're done, their safe port or their muffin catcher catches them. We call them muffins because they go in to bake and then they come out and they're fragile.

Our muffins, you mean our vulvas?

Vulvas are the patients. Patients are clients, right? Um, that's my fertility work. They became patients, but no, they're clients. Yeah. And so then the women catch them because it can crumble and they're soft and they're—

take aftercare.

Yeah. And we take them into what we call the nest, where there are other muffins, and they all hold each other.

All the women?

All the women, um, with the safe ports hold each other after their sessions. After their session.

Because you're there for a week, right?

And some of these retreats, we're always there for a week, right? It's always 7 days. And so, because this needs time, this is high-touch work.

Yeah.

This is very deeply intensive work. So there is a lot of staff. It's better than daycare, okay? The ratio from staff to client is, I swear, better than daycare. And the women also help by holding each other.

They hold space.

So clearly—

they hold each other.

So clearly this is erotic work. Clearly we don't like to use the word healing, that we're healers. The women heal themselves. We create the container for women to heal their stuff. And let's also be clear, some women don't come to heal.

They just—

some women come because they want— they don't want to take all the possibility with them into their coffin. They want to really explore their sexuality. Like, oh my, okay, I'm a sex goddess. I've done everything, but there's something I haven't done, and I think there's more in this body. When I—

I think there's more in everybody is the point. Like, I just think that people, we're just limited. Like, we don't know, we don't know. I can't say that enough to people. Like, you you could even think you're having the best sex of your life right now, I guarantee there is so much more, especially with women. Our bodies have such capacity for pleasure that we don't even like tap into. We don't know, we don't, we don't realize it.

So our practitioners, this is what they do, right? So they've been working in immersion with women over and over and over again until they know all the different kinds of bodies and all the different kinds of ways to read and work with a woman and help her find that place in herself. And then all the women around. Like, your win is their win, and they celebrate each other's wins. We take competition— talk about sisterhood— we take competition out of sisterhood, which is what screws women up. True. So at Back to the Body, everyone gets the same slice of cake. No one's competing for male attention. Everyone gets 90 minutes. No one's competing for their safe port's attention or my attention. Everyone is getting served the same. So when everyone is given the same amount of time and presence and love, then women can stop competing, right? And they can actually start seeing each other and supporting each other. And that's a big part of this.

So let's say people can't, you know, they could— I think that great place to start is getting your book Shameless. And if they can't even go on, I mean, I often talk about masturbation and getting that Communication is one of my big, you know, how do you communicate? How do you talk about it? But if you can't, like, where else is there? Could they open this up in other ways? Is there other ways for women to explore that you've seen that could work in their home?

It's a complicated question and a simple question. Of course, there's lots of ways. I mean, there are videos, there are wonderful books, listening to you. You know, follow me on Facebook and read my writing.

Yeah, follow me on Facebook, Pilar and Betsy. Yeah, it's great.

You know, they could follow me. I put out writing every day. There's lots of great teachers around where they can learn. This particular container right now, in this moment in time, I'm it. I'm sure I won't be it forever.

Right.

Right now.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think I do.

No, right now I'm it. And there was just a study done and I'm not going to talk too much about that because papers are coming out about it. But the quantitative results around the study, we have science now, which is great, is that it's statistically significant, the change in women around how they feel about their vulvas, how they feel about their orgasm, how they feel about their body, how they feel about other women, their ability to consent and ask for what they desire. You know, I used to be a kindergarten teacher. People learn in lots of different ways. So maybe you're a book learner. There are great books out there. Yeah, you know, sometimes people work best through video. It's there.

Just start on your journey, whatever. Know that you are not like stuck where, where you're at. Because even your story is amazing. To go back to that, it's like you're still married.

I'm still married to the same person.

The same person. And you had to go on this journey for a while and he didn't know you, you know. It's like, and then you had your whole like, am I cheating? Am I not? What does it mean? And so can you talk about that? Like, because I think a lot of people— and this even happened yesterday with one of the women, she's like, I want that, and how do I have that? But I don't know my husband could ever learn this, because how do you get your partner on board? I mean, we are such a new— I mean, sex has just scratched the surface here, and even in 2019, it's amazing the work you're doing and that I can even have this show now for 14 years. It's finally— people don't freaking freak out about it as much, but it's still— we're still very infantile stages. So how did you, with your husband, learn to like kind of get him on board? And how did he react to all of it when you were like, okay, this is what I'm learning? Because he thought everything was fine in your sex life, and you know, everything was fine with our sex life. It was fine. Do you want fine when we're talking about sex?

We could, we, you know, we got really good at making each other have orgasms, right? You know, and, you know, we did all the things, licky licky sucky sucky.

Lights were off for you?

Yeah, but we did, we did the stuff, licky licky sucky sucky, you know, we know how to do it. But I felt like there was more in my body. And what's true is that for 6 months I didn't tell. But that was a long time ago. And within the year, I not only told him but took him to see, and he had a session. And he was like, I was like, okay, great. I get it. Not for me. Have fun.

But he was cool.

He was totally cool because he saw that this wasn't about me having an affair with a man. These are professionals. These are people. This is what they're— this is their job. This is what they do.

It's like going to your therapist.

It's like going to your therapist, your yoga teacher, your nutritionist. This is a practice. And so he was totally unthreatened by it. He's really honestly rather uninterested in it. Even when I go on retreat, I said, do you want to know what happened? He's like, was it good? I go, yeah. Good job.

That's all I need to know. Yeah.

What do you want to watch on Netflix?

So how does that feel for your relationship? How has it changed your sex life with your husband, though? Even if he's not on board, not coming to retreats, which I think is fine. Our partners aren't always in our work all the time, you know. So, but how do you— how has it changed your intimate connection?

You know, it's been It's been positive and it's been negative, you know, because sometimes I get frustrated. Like, I'm— there's this thing happening, I would love you to come with me. And he's like, well, we'll think about it. And so marriages, I think, have limitations, like relationships have limitations. How it's changed is that I am aware that my vagina belongs to me. That's how it's changed. So I have much more independence around my vulva, my eroticism, how I express my eroticism in my life. You know, I'm erotic when I go to the grocery store. Yeah. So he now has this wide open, happy woman in his life.

That he didn't have 15 years ago.

He tells guys, write the check, just send her, you know, send her, she'll come back to you.

Right, right. That's beautiful. I mean, because I love the story. I love in the book when you're going through transformation, when you were like, yeah, and then you started walking down the street and men were opening doors for you and carrying your jacket and like looking at you differently because you felt differently. You were carrying, you you had been transformed.

Everyone kept asking me if I lost weight. And I was like, no. Right?

Because really, it's about—

No, I'm just more alive now. Thank you. And I can meet people's eyes and I can talk to them and smile. Because when you feel safe in your body, then you feel safe to actually see people. And there are subtle changes that happen for women. And as far as partners go, like, your partner is not a practitioner. So the work that you do with a practitioner doesn't come with the baggage of did he pay the electric bill, right? And what he said to your mother, right?

And who you are, years of history and resentments or whatever, right?

So it's really like, it's really going to see, you know, a therapist, right? So it's a whole other animal where you really get to just sort of be in you. It's easy to explain to a partner that this is a non-romantic relationship. It has a beginning, a middle, and end. There are other women there. You're going to a retreat. And I think it's unrealistic for women or men to think that you're going to become the practitioner for your spouse. You don't expect your husband or your partner to take out your appendix, right? I go to a therapist, like, to talk about my stuff. I believe in talk therapy too. I don't do that with my partner. So there's real solid reasons why some work has to be done outside of our relationship. And yes, it will influence our relationship. Right.

All right, guys, we're gonna take a quick break, and we come back, even more Pamela Matson.

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You get some great women that actually tend your retreats, and I think a big thing that comes up in a lot of relationships is religion. And there was a woman there who said that she was raised that it was— sex was all about procreation, and I'm sure when it happened, it was about pleasing her husband and not about her own pleasure. And that is so brave to step out of the confines of that and then to realize, you know, she has several kids and she, you know, and then to come back to that and like, I think that when it's been religion, it's been, you've been hearing this message since you were young, that can be so challenging because I, I hear a lot of my listeners and people call in and email in that it's just, it's a struggle once they start waking up and realizing maybe what I've learned doesn't really resonate with me. I think, you know, in religion it's harder to take what you like and leave the rest when you feel like shamed or you feel like your family's not gonna, you know, So that's— but it's amazing to see how that you could still do that transformation when you're ready. But you must see a lot of that too. And how do you heal that?

You heal it by putting women with other women.

Yeah, sister, I agree.

Allowing them to hold each other through the stories and permissioning each other and them seeing it. And some women start out really slow. You know, we've had women at their first retreat, you know, where we're doing female body sharing and they're keeping their panties on. On. And then you see them two retreats later and they're dancing naked. So it takes time. Yeah, it takes practice. We have to practice.

Practice.

When you are like trained to be a certain way over and over and over again, it takes practice to undo those pathways.

It's a journey. Yeah, for sure.

It's like when you go to Rome and you go to the Colosseum and you can look at the ground and you can see see the chariot wheel tracks, because they always went the same way. They always went the same way. And so now we're saying to these women who are like those chariot wheel tracks, and that's where their neural pathways are like that, right? We're going to go over here. We're gonna go another way. They need a lot of support. Yeah, not to fall back into the track.

You can change, you can change your neural pathways and your ability to receive pleasure. Because if you were always just receiving pain or negative thoughts, It takes work, but it's so worth it. I think that for women to, to really experience their full erotic potential and their full orgasmic potential, I think it's really what I think that all of the ailments— well, if you think about like, you know, women being told that they were hysterical or hysteria because they weren't having orgasms. I mean, for so long now, women have just been told like something's wrong or we're crazy or if we, you know, but for women to really realize that there's that we have so much power in our bodies.

We have—

there's so much energy. There's so much to release and experience. And, and it could— and I believe that so many of our challenges in relationships and life come down to our self-confidence, our self-esteem, and our— and how we feel sexually, sexuality. And so I feel like this work is so important for women to just take back their orgasms, to understand their bodies. And it's just not being done. It's still new every day. There's a new listener to my show. That's why I'll always have a job, why you'll always have a job. Like, I think we're just scratching the surface now of people being like, Oh, I don't have to fake it. I mean, every day I'm like, there's a woman who hasn't had an orgasm, who's been faking it, who's had sexual trauma.

Like, we all need, you know, I think a piece of this too is understanding, helping women understanding who they are authentically. So we talk about having the sexual authenticity model. So having women explore, you know, what are their values? What have they been trained with? Like, what do they believe right? So if my value is monogamy, right, that's my value. But my— what is— what is your desire? So maybe my desire is to have many more lovers and many more experiences. So value, what you value, and what's your desire. People can— you can do this at home. What are your values? What are your desires? Then what's your behavior? And what you really want is to help people, men and women— of course, we must be working with women— align align what their value is with their desire, with their behavior, and then they're living an authentic sexual life.

Can you, can you give me an example of that? A woman coming in with her figuring out what her moral is and her desire?

Sure. So she was raised with the value that good girls kept their legs closed, right? That we sit with our legs closed, we never open our legs, that that even relaxing at home, you kept your legs closed. That was the value. That was private. Her desire, right, was to go to a nudist beach and flop her legs open. Like, she had this big desire for being able to relax on the couch and not wear underwear.

Yeah.

Right? But her behavior was to keep her legs closed.

Right.

And not to do any of those things. And so—

To repress maybe even.

And to repress it.

And then not really even might have remembered it, right?

So not feeling authentic and therefore depressed, sad, frustrated. So we can help a woman go, oh wow, right, you've been raised with this value, but your desire is actually to do this. Can we align that? Can we change the value? Like, do you really believe that anymore, or is that a value that you were taught that you no longer buy into? Can you change the value? If you can change your value and how you see something, maybe you get exposed to other learning or other ways of being, and you still identify that as your desire, can you get friends to go with you to the beach?

Right?

Can you have— can you align them?

Right?

And looking at where, where there is not alignment, it could be that your values and your desires are aligned, but you haven't done it.

Exactly.

And so, okay.

It's a good exercise.

It's a great exercise. It really is.

We don't even realize that we are in the jails of our own mind and, and from our past beliefs, or people don't even know. I always tell people, like, examine where you believe, and maybe it no longer serves you. Like, where did it come from? And maybe it was your parents, your grandmother, or your friend in second grade told you something and you still believe it, and that just might no longer be your gem. And that's okay too. And it's your freedom for people to realize that, yeah, I can actually change change that? Because that's the— that's like the first step towards seeing like, okay, that— that what you like— let that go. And you're like, what is possible?

And so that's some of the things that we work with. So that would be one of the exercises that somebody working with us would do. We would do the Sexual Authenticity Model. Where are you? What do you want to let go of? Do you want to still believe that? Right?

I always say people don't even know what's on the menu, right? Like, I'm like, you guys don't even know what is on the menu for your pleasure. They're like, well, We want to spice it up, but we don't know, or we want to do something different. And I think through this work, it's like, you really— people don't know what's out there. Do you ever give them like, this is what could happen? Or like, when you say they want the chef special, or do they even know? I could imagine someone would get there and they might— or I guess you do the pre-work, but in general, women don't know. Like, even listening right now, let's say forget about your treats, the whole thing, they still don't know what we're talking about in some ways. Like, you could you could have agency over your body. You could have incredible multiple orgasms. You could have cervical or nipple orgasms. I'm a huge proponent. We talked about it. You talked about your retreat yesterday that like it's the same parts of your brain receiving signals, but yet we just— people do the little twist on the nipples and go right down to premature penetration.

And that's the biggest cause of vaginal pain. Yeah, really, premature penetration is, is premature penetration. Most people don't know that a woman in her full arousal can take 30 to 45 minutes. And so many couples don't have the patience, and women are frightened they take too long. They take too long.

We're so worried.

We're so worried about taking too long. Guess what? We take long.

We just do.

We just do.

There's an orgasm gap, right? Not a problem.

We take long. So you want to make love to a woman, make love to a woman and give her some time. Don't try to fit it Unless you're trying to, you know, listen, look, there's all kinds of sex. Sometimes I want to be grabbed bent over a table and let's just do it. And that's hot for me. But on a general menu, especially for women who are having trouble with, with their arousal, with orgasm, with vaginal pain, the biggest issue is they're not given time. And there are lots of things that we can do to support women or products. There's lots of things that can happen. Happen. And it's not fast.

It's not fast. This is not going to be a quick fix. Yes, I talk about toys and wearing sexy laundry or going on a retreat. None of it's quick. It is a journey. I mean, you got where you are today being in one path. Your neural pathways are all telling you one thing. But even just waking up to it and realizing there's just— take the first step.

And when you do this, you know, sex is, sex is core. Sex runs us.

We're here because two people had sex, but yet we don't understand it.

And so if you can access your erotic energy as a woman, you're going to access your career, you're going to access— your lasagna is going to taste better. It really is.

I believe that. Erotic energy—

when I look across the table at you right now, Emily, and your eyes are sparkling, that's erotic energy. Yeah, you look at my eyes.

Yes, you look just—

so that's erotic energy. So erotic energy, you know, we need to look at sexuality as this holistic thing. It's not just about coming.

It's not.

Okay, erotic energy is this palpable pulse that runs through our body that energizes us and makes us awake. And when you put women on antidepressants, you bring that right down and you flatline it.

And the birth control pill, we think.

You flatline this stuff. And women come in, they're sad and depressed, and they're sad and depressed because they're bored. And they're not being fed and their erotic energy isn't turned on. So we're going to give them antidepressants, which is only going to make the problem worse. So the answer is uncomfortable. The answer is you need to take yourself on some kind of sexual adventure. You need to do something that is going to wake you up, that feels scary but doable. You know, scary but safe. Scary but safe.

Right. Right. That's what you do. You expand, you do it, and then you might pull back and have to process it. And then you go and then, yeah, you just—

you want to live an alive life. You got to get off your sofa. You've got to schedule it. You've got to like stop, you know, I hear all the time, you know, time, money, and this and that, the children. You know what? Schedule, plan your own abduction.

Yeah, exactly right.

Take yourself away, you know, make it happen for you. Nobody is going to do this for anybody.

Nobody.

This is something that actually is actionable.

Yep.

And takes a bit of courage. I mean, let's get all Brené Brown.

Yeah.

Like, get in the arena, right? And see what it brings you.

Get out of the cheap seats.

Get out of the cheap seats. Because we only get one chance at this life. And it doesn't matter how old you are. It doesn't matter if you felt this in your body, or you think, you know, what it doesn't matter. I see all kinds of women from every story and every occupation. And if, damn it, if my mother could do this at 93, then nobody has an excuse.

And we talk about like a sexual adventure too. Like for you, it might be, it could be going to the store and buying a toy or actually just having that first conversation even with your partner that you'd like to experience more, that you know there's more to your orgasm, you know, there's more to your relationship. There's a lot of different ways, but that would start you on the path and then keep doing it. There's more to that. There's more. There's just so much more. Here's a great game.

You want a great game?

Yeah, I love it.

So this is a great game they can do with their partners.

Okay.

So you go to a sex store. Go to a nice one.

Yeah, go to a good one.

Go to a good one. Get two baskets. Send him off to the right. You go to the left. You get 15 minutes. Each of you pick out what you would love to do. But you're frightened to tell your partner. You meet in the middle, maybe by the loops. Okay. You all look in each other's baskets and there's no yucking of the yum. Okay.

No yucking.

No yucking of the yum.

You don't get to say eww. You can't say eww to anything your parents— the second your partner does something and you go eww, gross, you're done.

So you get to look in your partner's basket and pick 3 things you'd be willing to try. 3 things they're willing to try. And then they look in your basket and they pick 3 things they're willing to try. Bingo, bango, boom, you've got a sexual adventure.

Right.

And even just going to do it together, it's an adventure. And then talking about it afterwards is an adventure. And so it's one of my favorite couple games. So you want an adventure?

Yeah. Go to BabeLand if you're in New York, or Good Vibrations, or some of the other good stores.

Absolutely.

They're going to help you out. They're going to help you with that. I want you to paint me a picture of like the before and afters. Like women come to see you, like just some stories that stick out, like before they go and then and after. Like if the people read your book, Shame unless they get your after. But give me some typical after, before afters, if there is.

Okay, sure. A before: meet a woman at a portal, and, you know, she's in her, you know, she's not in the sexy yoga pants, she's in the, like, the baggy joggy pants and the t-shirt that you wear when you're just gonna stay in front of your TV all weekend. And usually, like, no makeup, hair is like sort of like nothing. And she looks at me and says, do you really think this will work for me? Because I haven't felt turned on in years. I haven't felt alive. And I've done, like, all the things. I've done pussy church. I've done, you know, I've done female empowerment. Do you really believe And I'm now able, after 8 years, I'm able to say, yes, sweetie. And so that woman, I'm thinking about a woman right now. And she's been like a little bit of a, like, I'm gonna get this. And at her, she's made it all the way up to my mastery programs. And she's my mentorship group. She is, you know, I said to her, give me a year. And she has given me a year, right? And And I had this picture of her in my mind, and she's tied up in purple rope and she's dancing. And the practitioner actually took her out of the room— this is at a mastery class— and took her out of her session space because she wanted to be seen by the other women. And she was dancing to the music, and she was gorgeous, and her hair was flying, and and this sexy purple robe around her body, red high heels. And she climbed up on the dining room table where we were staying at the retreat center, and she danced for us. And this was the same woman who was colorless. And there wasn't— you had to reach for the flicker. You knew there was a pilot light.

Right, well, we don't keep our pilot light lit, right?

And here she was, 6 months in, and again, working, you know, like, working.

You got to do the work.

Like, she was committed to, like, doing this, and her whole life is different, and you wouldn't recognize her. Like, I— every time I see her, I go, look at you. And then there was this woman in the Marine Corps who came, and the same thing. She was like, I work in this highly masculine society, and I want to be in my feminine, and I don't know how to do it, and I feel like, I feel like I'm in armor all the time. And she came to one of our retreats in Tuscany, and the last night we were having some special dinner, and she appears on the porch and with a glass of red wine in her hand, and she's wearing this long long, sexy ball gown. And she has red hair in curls. And I just looked at her and I started to go, "Hello, Dolly." Yes, hello, Dolly. It's so nice to see you back where you belong. You know, and so this was this woman who was in the armed forces and was so masculinized. And there she was, like freaking movie star and alive and awake. And You know, 6 days, 6 days of doing this work. I mean, come on. That's, you know, to me, that's a miracle. I mean, I was all about kind of creating orgasm camp for women.

Exactly. That's what it is.

But it's, but, but it's so much bigger and more, and it's more than orgasms, which is also, yeah. And I'm not, not even really about the orgasm.

I mean, it is kind of orgasm camp, but I think also you talk, yeah, I mean, I'm about arousal.

I'm about about the power of arousal and how women also, when they, when they get their private light really turned on and awake in their bodies, how they can create in their lives. And that's such a big thing. Again, we talked earlier about women finding their yes. And it's such a big thing for women.

Let's talk more about finding out what does that mean.

You know, to find their yes. Well, we're really, as I said, you know, we are so damn good at restricting our own pleasure and restricting our own time and conforming to male gaze. And God, what women have been doing for hundreds of years, it would have been done to women for hundreds of years to conform to male gaze. And so part of women finding their yes yes, is finding their yes to their bodies. And you know what? It's not about fat versus thin. It's not, it's not about big tits versus little tits, because all women I work with, all women have stuff about their bodies and are not a yes to their body. We do this game where once women are safe and we're into the retreat, we do this thing called body and we, we asked the women to disrobe to where they're comfortable. And this is just the women. And we asked them to get up and tell us what they love about themselves. Because we used to do it in the beginning of Back to the Body and just have women tell their body stories and all they would do was hate.

Negative. We all hate on ourselves. We lead with the negative. We lead with the crisis in our life. We lead with all the stuff that's going wrong.

So So we stop that. You're not allowed to do that. You've got to find the yes in your body. Like, where do you love you? And again, you know, we tend to focus on fat chicks or skinny chicks. Doesn't matter what kind of chick you are. You need to find the yes, the yes in loving yourself. And that's a practice, loving ourselves, looking in the mirror, looking at your body.

I often tell women masturbating, look at how you look at how your clitoris swells. Take a the mirror, dance around naked. Like, it's a— these things work even if they sound silly. They— they— getting into your body, looking at yourself, masturbating, loving yourself. And we just hate on ourselves.

And how much time are we going to say the word practice? But we're going to keep saying the word practice because it's not easy. And I've been doing this for how many years? How long have you been doing this? I am still practicing.

I've never done—

yeah, I am still practicing. This is— this work is evolutionary. Your sexuality is always going to change. Your body is always going to change. If you are alive, your body is going to change. You're going to have medical crises. You're going to have hormonal changes.

Let's talk about that.

And you're gonna— and you have been fed a bill of goods about all of it. So because people want to make money off of us, let's be clear, okay? Your vagina is like a pot of gold for the world. Right. So people want to— people, the world, industry wants to make money on on your fear around your body and your vagina, right? And your orgasm.

And we're gonna sell you products, and we're gonna sell you things, and we're gonna give you drugs and all these things to kind of repress it so you'll feel better because you're broken in some way.

And women start aging, you know, in the world somewhere around 37.

Yeah.

So fertility declines at 27. I know people don't know that either. Fertility declines at 27, and then we, you know, we click up, up that, that biological clock ticks, ticks, ticks. And somewhere around 37, there's a big drop. And some women even begin perimenopause so much earlier than they may even know.

Right.

Okay. And so even then, we didn't know about menopause 100 years ago because we were dead. Okay. We were just dead.

Right.

Okay. We died in childbirth. We got some disease. Black Plague took us. Okay, there was no menopause.

It was like men, oh, dead.

Men, oh, dead. Right. Okay, you were 40, gone. You know, you were, you were now a grandmother 3 times over, right? So we don't have a lot of experience with aging women. And because the male gaze is all about youth, right? We're, you know, I even like, I'm kind of going around and around, but, you know, Even this idea of calling women who are sexual over 40 cougars. But men are daddies. Right? Oh, he's her daddy.

Right.

Isn't that loving and sweet?

You're our prey.

Right. You're going to eat your prey. So aging and women and sexuality, we're not supported in a loving way around that.

Right? We got to change. We got to look younger, be younger.

Right. And if you want it, you're going to be, you're going eat, you're young. It's just like, yeah, cougar's like, yeah. So like, it doesn't make me feel hot and sexy. You call me a cougar and I'll say, and that's nice, have a burger, I'm gone. So the word, the languaging, the images that we use to support women in finding their yes as they age. First, we need to start with the labels. So think about what they named it. Menopause. So the— what it says is that when your menstruation ends, your sexuality pauses. And we are fed this idea that our libido is going to disappear. Now what's true is that just like in adolescence, when your hormones start to go wonky, you have a period of clunkiness where you have to sort of figure it out again. Like, how How does that feel? And, you know, you may feel off for a little while, but if you can stay with it, menopause can become menoplay, menosexual, menohot, metamorphosis. Screw the pause. There is no pause in life.

Hormones do change and things can fluctuate, but it's your mind being on board with knowing that and then continuing to keep your pilot light lit.

Absolutely. And many women in their 40s, 50s and 60s. I'm gonna go back to the bored thing. We're bored. So you've been doing the same old thing for how long? When was the last time you did something erotically different? When did you last take an erotic risk? When did you try something new? We become like parrots that are in a cage. And what do parrots in a cage do? They pluck out their own feathers. And so that's what happens to women is that we just start picking at ourselves and we don't know what to do with ourselves. So we start like, okay, maybe we change ourselves cosmetically. Maybe if we do some new diet, maybe if we take some new hormone, we don't think about the obvious things, which is like maybe we need to do something different with our erotic lives because we think that's going to happen from the outside in. Some magical prince Prince is going to come and rescue us, right? Right. Or our husband is magically gonna turn into Don Juan, right?

Or he's gonna know what we want, he's gonna be a mind reader, and then we're still mad at him that he didn't figure it out all these years because we feel like sex is something that's supposed to happen to us, and that's from the inside.

And here's like the kicker. The kicker is, the kicker is that men are also going through their own changes. We don't talk about that. And so how does that impact our libido when our guy is going through their thing? And so, you know, it's not just about us, right?

It's having a dialogue around it, being able to be honest too with your partner. Like, what are they— men are so— when their penises aren't working, like, it's like their whole world's falling apart. Exactly. Can't get erection one time. I've had so many calls lately, my friends in their 40s, and they're like, First time my husband of, you know, 10, 15 years, now he can't. He last night, he didn't stay hard or he couldn't get hard. And they're like freaking out. I'm like, have you heard? Men over 40, testosterone can start to drop. Like, it's okay. But it's like, so then they're going through that too. And then we're going through our own things and it just becomes so messy. That's why I think people have to get in front of this. You do this work, the sooner you do this work, it's going to stay with you.

Yes. So we talk about the different ages at the retreat. So there'll be a 20-something at the retreat. And, and the 50-something or the 60-something will look at the 20-something and say, you are so lucky that you're doing this work in your 20s, that you're doing this work in your 30s, and you're not having to figure this out later. But for the women who are later, you have more freedom now, you have more resources now. This is the time, and you will have more orgasms. I am telling you right now that when I was in my 20s, I always had orgasms. I had orgasms when I was 5 years old. So, but I had one orgasm, right?

You had one kind.

I had one kind. I had clitoral, whatever, done.

Yeah.

In my 50s, that's when it all opened up for me. That's when the G-spot orgasm opened up for me. That's when my multiple orgasms opened up to me. And that was because I, I had time. I didn't have to like change a baby's diaper. And I had— and I found the right resources. I built a team. You need to have a team, ladies.

It takes a village.

It takes a village to build yourself a team. Find the people who are gonna support you through this journey. And whatever you think you have, you can have more and different.

You—

wherever you are right now, whoever you are listening, however old you are, you're at the beginning of your journey.

Yeah, just by listening right now, right? Can change at any time.

And you were curious about the toys at the for treats and what toys that we use. And so first of all, they're trained hands. Right? So they— these— our practitioners are really good with their hands. And that's great. And it's fun to play with toys. And we do have a few toys that I like a lot and products.

Yeah, I saw we had some similarities. So yeah.

So would you like me to talk a little bit about it? So like, yeah, Look, basic. Everyone should have a magic wand. Just have it. And look, if you're alone in your house and somebody breaks in, you could use it to club them. Okay, so it's also like a self-defense tool. So everyone, every woman should always have a magic wand. I'm a sex butter fiend. And that's a— it's not a lube. It's not a lube.

I saw that thing.

Yeah, yeah, sex butter. So you'll need a little bit, and I use it around my inner— my inner labia and your introitus, the opening to your vagina. And it's really protective, especially if you're feeling that you have soreness around your vagina and your vulva. Get yourself some, you know, lube. You know, I'm gonna use the word lube up, but this is not quite lube. This is more a nutrient, but I use it with satin I love the nJoy.

Talk about clubbing someone over the head.

Yeah, that's also a really good self-defense tool. Right now, which is the one I love? I think it's the nJoy 11, is the happy face. Yeah, so I like the happy face one. Now, women, if you're not having intercourse the way you used to, you want to keep having a vagina, okay? You've got to put something in there, all right? And what's really nice about the nJoy is you can rock with it. And I know women who— we teach a meditation with it where you just put it in and put your feet up on the wall. Let the weight of it just ground you and do a vaginal meditation. So again, we're—

it's a dildo. It's a steel weighted dildo. It's amazing.

It's amazing. And I love it.

And the Zumio 2.

The Zumio 2 is— that's the little purple toy.

Yeah. Let's talk about that because I just discovered it and it was someone— a listener called it and said, how do you not know about the Zumio? And I tried it. I'm like, this is brilliant because I love it as the pinpoint to really— you can really get in there and figure out all your different nerve endings and hotspots, 8,000 of them, and other places.

And I would tell listeners, it's an intense little baby.

Yeah.

So it's not the first thing you put on your clitoris when you start to self-pleasure. Like, warm. Remember we talked about warming yourself up?

It's real.

You know, get yourself like aroused. And then bring it in. It's a great toy. It's also— if you're looking to go past your first orgasm and you're really trying to find your second or third orgasm, it's a great toy to bring in to really expand your pleasure ceiling. I love helping women bust through their pleasure ceiling. What women need to know about that is they have to be a little uncomfortable, right?

Because the first— you're used to stopping at the first one, right? So just breathe into it.

You might have some pain with a little bit— we call it being in the yellow. Back to the Body, it's that place where it's not red, stop, and it's not green, like I'm going to Whole Foods and I'm— that's what I do, like, without thinking, right? So it's being in the yellow where it's a little uncomfortable. That's where you want to be with your sexuality. You want to always see if you're in the yellow. And using some of these products and toys ways. And moving your pleasure ceiling up to find that next place may be uncomfortable. Just like you said in the beginning, would people be comfortable seeing the demo? Yeah, they may be in their yellow, but it's by being in their yellow that they, they get into that next place where they want to go.

They want to go. They want— they haven't experienced that, right?

Where they want to go in their lives. So yellow is— yellow is a happy word. Green is like turning on Netflix, right?

That's easy. Yeah, right. Yellow. So you're in the middle. So you're saying before someone has one orgasm, then we bring in like the Zumio, for example, because it's— it can kind of get to places on your— I found with it, like my, my vulva, my clitoris, like it just explores. I just love the pinpoint because you could just get into it and release a lot of different places.

Just let yourself breathe and scream.

I love it. Breathe and scream is amazing. Started seeing you yesterday. It was amazing and brave, and I think that, that it is really aspirational. I think that, that a lot of women, we just don't even scratch the surface. So I love the work that you're doing here, Pamela Matson. And I think you guys could check out more backtothebody.org. And Pamela, I have to ask you— and check out her book Shameless, get on Amazon, wherever books— you get your books.

Amazon's the best.

I love reading this book. It's so well done. I think I just want all my friends to read it.

Like, I think we were I've also got the Kindle going with that. Oh, Kindle.

Yeah.

And I'm doing a lot more on Instagram. And I think I'm The Pamela Madsen.

Pamela Madsen on Instagram.

People can find me. I put a lot out there for free for people, a lot of information. And hopefully I'm going to make you curious enough. I want you to yearn a little bit, yearn for more in your life and know that everyone can have this. That maybe getting naked in front of a group of people to do a live demo is aspirational, right? But you don't ever have to do that. But to have what you see on the table is possible for every woman. And I don't care how— what age you are, I don't care what size you where you are. I don't care if you've just had something medical happen to your body. It's available, and it wasn't always available.

It wasn't, yeah.

And it's safe.

And yeah, it's safe. And I guess what I'm saying is aspirational. It's positive for women to see that where you're at now is not— is just where you're starting, and that there is so much more just potential for pleasure, for your— yes, for finding what you love, for finding who you are, for having freedom and not worrying about your O-face and your— your— what you feel like. I get asked, what do you do at your face? How do you get a better blowjob? Like, how's— and I always— I used to— the beginning, there was a lot of that in my job. I'm like, no, let's talk about you. Like, women only have a second for me. I'm like, I'm not gonna answer your question about oral. I'm gonna answer about how you're pleasuring yourself. Just so— to change the narrative, I think it's just so important to give women options, to realize it's okay. And what your work gives them permission to, to take that time and take that step into themselves themselves to receive. You help them to receive.

Yeah, yeah, it's a whole new thing.

Exactly.

Receiving instead of, you know, so I feel guilty.

And sure, if you do, you work it through.

So instead of, instead of performing sex, how do we be sex?

I love it. Thank you, Pamela. Thanks, Pamela Madsen. All your information's in the show notes.

Thank you.

You guys can check it out. And, um, I so appreciate you being here and your vulnerability and all the great work you're doing. So thank you.

Thank you. It's been a lot A lot of fun. It was a blast. Thanks.

All right, guys, I hope you enjoy this show. Thank you so much for supporting it all these years, telling a friend. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, producer Jamie, and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.