Go With the Gender Flow

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Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, we explore some of the gender and sex labels that we're hearing a lot more about and might not completely understand. Hey, I'm still learning as well. What does it mean to be genderfluid, nonbinary, cisgender, transfemme? Well, my guests today bring a fabulous and fresh perspective to explain what this all means socially, politically, and historically. Of course, we also answer your sex and relationship questions. Enjoy the show. Thanks for listening.

Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions.

Bedroom eyes, they called them in a bygone day. Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend?

'Cause my man E here, he just got his heart broken.

He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards. Oh my.

Do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks?

Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me?

Oh my God, it feels so good.

Being bad feels pretty good. You know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com because it's a party there. Every day we're updating it. We've got new blogs and videos and stuff going on there. It's really easy to also subscribe to the podcast. It's really important for us that you subscribe. It just helps us out with the show, and I know that we're all super busy every day and there's a lot going on, but when you just hit that subscribe button, it doesn't It doesn't really change anything for you. It just means that you'll get 2 episodes a week and you'll know when they're available, but it just helps us with life and the show and I can keep it free. It just helps. Got it? Thanks guys, I so appreciate it. Also follow me on social media. It's all @sexwithemily on Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and Twitter. And we have a good time there. We document everything that goes on here. You know, we get like 20 pounds of lube delivered, our guests, all this fun stuff happening. Also, we have a sexy contest going on this month 'cause it's October. And we know it's all about Halloween, so we're doing a contest. We wanna know your sexiest tricks or treats. So you can email me and say, you know what? I've got this go-to move in the bedroom that works every single time. Like this one thing I learned I love, or like, I can only have multiple orgasms by doing this one move, or this is my go-to blowjob move maybe that I learned and no one else knows about. I just wanna hear what works for you. And then treats. What's your favorite like accoutrement? What's something that you need in the bedroom every time? Certain toy, condoms, lube, like a sexy piece of lingerie underwear that you're like, "Oh, every time I wear this, it's just amazing." So I wanna hear from you, sexy trick-or-treats. Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com with the subject Halloween and enter by November 1st. And you know I always give out the best sexiest prizes. So do that stuff. I appreciate it. I love you all. Thanks for listening. And I'm jumping in the show 'cause I'm so excited for my guests here today 'cause I just met them and I already like love them and wanna be BFFs. One of them I've been very close with already. I have Max Landworth here, and Max is a friend of Sex with Emily. I've known Max for a while now. We met, we've done some production work together, and he's just, he's a great guy. And I really support Max in all the things he's doing. It's a socially conscious production company, and he's just really smart. And he has a movie called "Elle" that he's doing around gender fluidity. And I wanted to expand my knowledge around it and also help all of you. And he's got some people, here that's going to speak to this and we're gonna have a, I already know it's gonna be a fascinating, illuminating conversation for everybody. So welcome Max Landworth.

Thank you, Emily, I am so glad to finally be on your show.

I can't believe you haven't been on it.

I know, it's been 3 years, 4 years since I've known you. I've helped you with the production stuff, I've been in the office.

You've helped me move into the office too.

I helped you move into the office, I helped you move out of your place, and now I'm on your show and I cannot believe it. I'm so excited, thank you so much for having us.

Well, of course, this was the time 'cause you're doing really important work. Thank you. So let's talk about the film, introducing our guests here. I'm gonna let you start.

Cool, so yeah, we are working on a feature film right now called "Elle," and it is going to be one of the first films, if not the first film, to specifically talk about gender fluidity and how that relates to interpersonal relationships. It's also the first film, as far as we know, designed to inform LGBTQ allies and the general public about gender fluidity and non-binary identities. But it's told in a way that's not preachy, and it's very fun and adventure-filled, and everyone's going to have a great time with it. So with us today, we have one of the actors from the film, Donnie David, as well as one of our trusted allies and advisors, Jacob Tobiah, and we are so thrilled to be here.

Thank you for— thank you for being here. So I think we have to first start by— I wanted us to define some terms. So even you might have just lost people when you even said gender fluid, binary. Like, I kind of want to go through some of these things so they even understand. They may be going, I don't know what that means. I've heard some of that. It's confusing. So let's talk about it.

I would love to talk about it. Um, and I think one of the biggest things to point out right off the bat is that the terms, while there may be a lot of terms, it's nothing to be scared of. It's nothing to reject right out. It's just, it's a new language that we all want to learn to help everybody else feel comfortable. And to accurately describe how people feel and how people identify. So it's just being mindful and being a better person. So everyone should just be open to it.

Absolutely. 'Cause we talked about being sexually fluid on the show. We had a guest on, Nico Tortorella. Do you know Nico?

Ugh.

Right?

I love Nico.

I love Nico. I mean, how hot is Nico?

It's absurd.

It's ridiculous. He was in here and it was like, I literally almost like, I had an orgasm on the show with him, but I didn't really, but I wanted to. But anyway, so we talked about that and about how he sleeps with men and women and transgender. He's kind of open. So we talked about that and I think that people get that, but let's talk about the difference maybe between gender fluid and sexually fluid if you want to start there.

Sure.

Or wherever you feel like it might be comfortable.

Yeah, well, I do not identify as non-binary or gender fluid, so I can only speak off of my own research and my own communication with people who identify that way. So I will definitely let Dani and Jacob kind of take the reins with it.

So Jacob, welcome. So can you tell me about your story, introduce yourself?

Yeah, well, my name is Jacob Tobiah. I am a writer, producer, author of forthcoming memoir Sissy with Putnam Books at Penguin Random House. I only introduce myself that way because I am damn proud of it.

As you should be.

Yeah, and I'm sure that Dani and I are similar in this way in that I use like a gazillion terms to describe my gender identity. Right? For me, it's like, I feel like if we're gonna make sort of like a very campy Sarah Jessica Parker kind of analogy, um, I think analogies might help people. No, analogies are my favorite thing. Like, I like my writing. If you don't like analogies or metaphors, my writing is insufferable because my whole life is just like analogy after analogy after metaphor after metaphor explaining how my identity came to be what it is. But I feel like the sort of Sex and the City metaphor would be like, you know, for me, labels around gender feel like purses. You know, you have one or two that are your go-to that you use all the time, but like, you want a collection. You know, you want a lot of different words to describe who you are. You want a lot of different accessories that help illuminate to the world around you, you know, how you understand yourself.

So what are some of your purses, your accessories around gender?

So I use the term genderqueer like all the time. I use the term trans to describe myself. I'm fine with the term gay actually in a lot of contexts because that— and that was so much a part of my historical experience. I use the term femme, I use the term transfeminine, I use power femme, sometimes goddess, you know, every now and then I'm a—

Okay, but that's so— Right, so, okay, so that's great, you have all the options, but I'm thinking, okay, so gay was the first one where you started. Like, what about your history? Let's talk about when you started figuring out that maybe you weren't like everybody else, and what age was it when you're like, I'm not sure if I'm attracted to men, women, if I even identify as like a cis gender male, but I'm not cisgender. You're not cisgender.

Yeah.

But we can talk, but we can talk about it.

It's fine.

So here's the thing. I mean, like, A, the language is complicated.

Like, it's so complicated. I already thought I understood that part. No, no, no.

So I mean, I think the thing that, like, you know, the thing that, um, I, the way I feel about gender language is it's kind of like, it's kind of like the internet, you know, it's like there's new terms that are emerging all the time and it's not, it's not that we're like making new things up. It's that we're just like having different ways of talking about getting information. So I think what we have right now is all this language is sort of emerging. So we have more ways to talk about what's already been going on. So I'm not cisgender, 'cause cisgender means that if you're assigned, you're assigned at birth, everyone, at least in Western medicine, is assigned male or female by a doctor, right? I mean—

So you were not identified as male?

I was identified as male, but—

I thought that's what it means. You were born as that gender.

Cisgender is about how you feel about how you were assigned.

Oh, okay.

So if you're cisgender, you like what you were assigned and you feel comfortable in the gender identity that quote unquote correlates with who you are, right? So like, when you're assigned male at birth by a doctor, everyone assumes that you're going to grow up to be a man, right? And that, that man is going to feel comfortable for you, right? Yeah. And the same thing with female and woman, right? And so the idea is that you're like part of the trans spectrum, you're part of the trans community, if in some way, shape, or form you don't really feel at home with the— or don't identify with the gender that's supposed to go with your sex, right?

Yes. So everyone else was like, you're a man, you're a boy. Yeah. Right. When you were a kid, yeah, like a boy, a boy. And then at what point were you like, I'm not so sure I'm a boy? I mean, like super early Like what age?

Some trans people, their experience is very much like, it's like, oh, like I am a girl, right? Like some people are like, I was assigned male by a doctor and I know that I'm a girl, right? And that wasn't quite mine, right?

Like this is what I'm saying, because people with trans are like, it's one or the other. Like I was born as a man but I think I'm a woman. But, but this is why we're talking about like, you didn't— you kind of felt both.

Yeah.

So why must I choose? And that's what we're talking about, gender fluidity. Yeah.

And that's what gender fluidity is all about. It's about sort of expanding the idea that transness isn't just like It's not just an express train from like Boston to New York, right? It's not like a one path, kind of like, you try and get there as fast as you can from one spot to the other. My gender journey is like, I feel like a bumblebee. I'm just like buzzing around and I'm trying out a lot of different things and landing on a million different flowers, and I'm really excited about all the pollen that I've collected on my haunches. And I want all the experiences of gender, because when I was a child, I didn't know what a word was for my gender identity, but I just knew I had gender coming out of my ears. You know, I just had so much gender. I was super masculine at times. I was super feminine at times, like day to day. Yeah, like my dream day as a kid was like go run around in the woods behind my house, like play with— like sword fight with sticks, get super dirty and like running around the creek, play with some bugs, scoop some clay out of the creek bed, make a pot for my mom, go pick some flowers to like put in one day. Yeah, then go like shower off or like, you know, get clean because I don't want to make the house and then like play with some cute Barbies, watch a science film, and then like, you know, go to sleep.

Yeah. Okay. Right. So that's, that's, I love that. So that was a great example. Where did you grow up?

I grew up in North Carolina.

Okay.

Raleigh.

So your family, like, could you probably couldn't even really put words around it. They're probably like, what is going on with Jacob? Like they probably didn't understand. Neither did you. Right. Or were they like, oh, they support, did they support you? Like, sure. Pick flowers, roll in the mud.

I mean, well, I was born in, you know, I was born in like 1991. Right. So when I was a child, there certainly wasn't like a big conversation. About the trans movement, at least in, in broad-ranging culture. And so I, you know, a lot of it was like, I think my dad just kind of was like, okay, this is something that Jacob's going to grow out of, right? Like, this is an experimental phase. And then my mom was kind of— I think she saw that it was more, but her struggle was different because she wanted to affirm who I was naturally. She wanted to like affirm my femininity and my masculinity. She wanted me to feel whole, but she also knew that if she did that, she'd set me up to live a life that might be harder, you know? I have this story that I tell all the time, and I write about it in my book, about when I was a kid and, you know, I went to Toys R Us to get my Halloween costume with my mom, and she asked, you know, like, well, who do you want to be for Halloween? And there was one year when I took a risk, and I was like, I'm gonna ask to be something that I know I shouldn't ask to be.

How old were you?

I was 7, I believe, 6 or 7. And I had just seen the film at the time, and let me give a preface that I'm not encouraging anyone to practice cultural appropriation on Halloween, but I was 7 and was not as politically informed as I am now.

So 1998.

So I had just seen Pocahontas, right? And all I knew, like, no one, if you're white and you're listening to this podcast, do not go dress up as a Native American person. Not cool. Never cool. Not a good idea. What I knew about Pocahontas though, at that age was just that, like, she was the most badass of the Disney princesses, you know, cause Mulan hadn't come out yet. And like, you know, she was like, she ran around the woods and I ran around the woods and she loved cute little dresses and I loved cute little dresses and she talked to trees and I also talked to trees. You know? So it just sort of worked for me on a lot of levels. And so I look to my mom in this very tender moment and say, you know, kind of with all the courage that I have, knowing that I'm walking out on a limb, I think I want to be Pocahontas, you know, because I saw the costume. It was right there, and I was like, I think this would be great. And she, you know, she had to decide, okay, I can say yes to my kid and affirm who they are, but then they're gonna have to A, we're going to have to tell their dad about this. Then they're going to have to walk around the neighborhood in a dress for everyone to see. And can my child or can I, as the parent of this child, survive that? Will this set up my kid to have a really, really hard, terrible life? And so ultimately, she kind of looked at me with that really kind of sad look of concern, when parents would have to say no to you. And she was like, well, could you be another character from the movie? And of course, I was just like, mom, that's so dumb. I don't want to be John Smith sucks. Like, I don't want to be John Smith. Are you kidding me? And so, you know, I, I think that that kind of sums up how my parents related to it, you know?

Like, so what were you, Pocahontas?

No, I didn't. I can't even remember what I went out, but it was something because I was so bored and a little bit heartbroken that I don't even remember what I ended up going out.

Because it's so hard as a parent, I'm sure. I sound like your mother's so loving, loves you, sees who your spirit is, wants to support you, and then— and just doesn't know how, right?

And, you know, we had to grow together in that way, right?

Okay.

And I think that's one of the most fascinating things from my journey, you know, understanding all this, is how young kids are when they start— when they are aware, you know, kids are very smart, they're very in tune with who they are, and it's learned behavior that really deters them from expressing who they really are. And the kids who identify as trans or non-binary, you know, they have the hardest time in schools. I think, I think it was A study came out from Gender Spectrum, a national organization, and I think they said 74% of transgender or non-binary kids in school feel uncomfortable even going to school because of their gender expression. So the kids are the ones who are really facing the, the brunt of this, right?

Well, I have a question for you then, and then we're going to get to Donnie's story into one minute. But the question is about trans versus non-binary. Now that there is this gender fluid umbrella that people can kind of identify with as well. Do you think that there's some kids who are like, oh, I thought I was trans, that maybe I'm more gender fluid?

I think—

or do you think it's— is it just sort of depends on the person? How does that—

yeah, I mean, I think some, some people think of themselves as trans and then, and then sort of realize, actually, I'm just wondering, middle— okay, like, in the middle feels okay for me, and sort of having a little bit of both feels okay for me. Okay, like, there's totally people for whom that's their journey, you know. And sometimes I think people act like because I'm in the middle, I'm somehow threatening someone else's ability to say, no, I'm a trans woman. And I'm like, no, no, this is not a mutually exclusive endeavor. We can have our cake and eat it too in this situation. I'm allowed to feel myself to be sort of mid-spectrum, to be kind of between, or a combination of genders. That doesn't stop anyone else from being like, no, I'm a woman. We're not challenging other people's ability to identify how they currently identify.

[Speaker] I'm just wondering if it's been this great thing for some kids who are like, oh, I only know no trans right now, so that's what I'm thinking. But maybe I don't— sometimes I feel like a woman and sometimes I feel like a man. Maybe they thought I had to choose because I was born as a boy, but sometimes I feel more girl, so I had to choose. You know what I'm saying?

So from my understanding, and Jacob, maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, transgender can kind of apply to that general umbrella of—

right, so that's the umbrella, that's the overall.

And then within the trans umbrella, there's binary and non-binary. So a binary A trans person would be somebody who is assigned male at birth and wants to transition to be female. Or vice versa.

That's how I always understood it.

Whereas a non-binary trans person may fall under the gender fluid, gender queer, pansexual, any of those.

We should put a flowchart on the website. Can we do that?

We can. I have access to so many of them that we can. Really?

Let's do that, you guys. If you're listening to this, I think this is really important information. If you're like, what? I mean, I'm still learning. So let's do that.

Which again, I mean, it's not always so cookie cutter.

No, it's really not.

But as far as like a general idea, it helps at least. Figure it out.

Visuals. Okay, Donnie, hi.

Hi.

Hi, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. So tell me about your story.

Um, well, I was born in Iraq, 1989, and then we refugied from Turkey to Sweden. So I grew up in Sweden and I came to LA 7 years ago.

Okay. And then, so what about your upbringing? When did you start feeling like you were born as, as a male?

In, in a hospital in Iraq. But then, yeah, as soon as I'm— as I remember, age of 4 in Sweden.

Okay. And what happened? What were you— what do you remember feeling at age 4?

I immediately started to experiment with dressing up in the kindergarten in dresses and always immediately attached to the girls. So, okay, so then you were dressing up, and then how are your parents Well, uh, I'm— I mean, they're Assyrians, so they're Christian Greek Orthodox. So, but my dad and my mom— my mom was— because they're Middle Easterns, you know, so mostly the, the male in the family is, you know, they're gonna be in charge, most of them. But like, my mom wasn't sure what was going on, but my dad was very strict. He was like, no, no, no, no.

So, so then you left and moved to California? Eventually, like, everything's okay now.

No, I grew up in Sweden, like, till the age of 21.

Okay.

But I went through a lot with my parents for them to accept me.

Um, and now they accept you?

Yeah, now they're good. Yeah, no, but I had to educate them and I had to make them understand since the age of 4, you know.

So tell me more about the conversations with your parents and some of those.

Well, my dad was very like— because I immediately started playing with Barbies and I was more like a I was very, very feminine, so I wasn't actually interested by the age of 4, 5, 6 to be with the boys. Or, you know, it was later I started to discover that, okay, you know, like, I like soccer because my brother is a soccer player. And then I started joining that, and then I was with the girls again. So that's when I found the fluidity.

More the fluidity. So now you're with— some days you identify more male, I would say, yeah, right.

But most of the time I feel I've identified more as a female.

Okay.

But, uh, but at the age of 4 or 5, I was immediately like, oh, this is— I, I just— I don't know, I don't know how it was, but I fell in love with hanging out with the females and dressing up.

Okay. Uh, so let's talk about then the, like, the history of gender fluidity, because just because we're talking about it now does not mean that it's, it's necessarily a new term or new concept.

Not at all.

Yeah.

So let's talk about that, which is one of the, the funniest things.

I think I've heard so many people say, oh, this is all just a trend with millennials, and it That is ridiculous. It is, right? It's so ridiculous. This— I mean, the history of gender fluidity, while it's had different names, thousands of years, and has been accepted in other cultures around the world, even today it's accepted. So I know, um, in Native American culture there's, uh, two spirits. Um, in, uh, ancient Hindu scripture it's a hijra, which is a third gender. Uh, it's in the Quran. They talk about this, and in those cultures, these people who identified as what we would call gender fluid are people who were held in sacred, esteemed positions within the community. They were people that would be advice givers and—

Prophets or mystics?

Yeah, sort of prophets, mystics, but they would be held in high esteem They would be renowned members of the community that would provide guidance, which I think is fascinating.

And the same thing that happened is the— I would think it gets repressed by people who are confused. The white man's kind of like women, feminine energy.

In ancient India, when the British came to colonize it, that's when it really kind of became suppressed. And same with in the Americas when the British came and took that kind of identity away, and then we categorized them into little boxes, male or female, pink or blue.

And like, and enforcing gender norms was actually like a huge part of the colonial project, right? Because, you know, you had these indigenous cultures that were like, we see gender completely differently. And they were like, no, you have to see it the white way, right?

You have to see it the white way, or the white way, the white way, which is not the right way, right?

Um, yeah. And, and so I think it was, you know, like, it's interesting looking at even just the way that, that, you know, gender is often, I think, I think, uh, left out of history in the way that we understand it, you know? Like, I, you know, we don't teach necessarily that, oh, like, part of colonization, a strategy of colonial rule, was to enforce the gender binary really rigidly and recruit everyone to start using it, you know? But like, that's not taught in a lot of— I mean, it's taught in like, really, if you go to like a really great, you know, like university maybe, um, and have a really great professor. But like, certainly isn't taught in like, you know, world history in high school about the history of it, right?

No, not at all.

Yeah, like the idea that that gender fluidity or that gender nonconforming people or genderqueer folks are new. It's like saying that green tea is new just because matcha lattes are like now the hip thing. You know what I mean?

I had my first one yesterday.

Yeah, right?

But yeah, but I understand what you're saying. So what is happening now then? Why now? Like I know Max, you're brave, you're making this film, Elle. Everyone can check that out.

Ellethemovie.com.

Ellethemovie.com. But so what do you think is happening right now? Like politically, culturally, where do you think this is the time? Like, do you think this is where people are really ready to hear this and understand it? I mean, I know there's a lot— we have a long way to go. I feel like even, like, transgender issues are even more so in the forefront right now. People are like, oh, I kind of understand that. But this is like another concept, I think, that people are kind of wrapping their heads around. So why now? And what do you hope to see happening?

I mean, it feels to me like a lot of where this is coming from is that, you know, the internet doesn't solve everything. I'm not, I'm not going to be one of those people who pretends like the internet's going to solve every social justice problem. But there is a degree to which being more connected globally and being more connected to other people helps folks, I think, understand from an earlier age that like they're not the only one. Because a lot of times I think what it feels like, I don't know if this is how you felt, Donni, when you were a kid, but when I was a kid, there were moments, even though somewhere in my heart I knew like, no, no, no, there are other people like me. This is not weird. This is normal. This is good. There were still moments because I didn't have like another, like, you know, gender nonconforming friend to run around with in the same way. Like there were moments when I thought, but maybe I am weird. Maybe, maybe this isn't normal. Maybe this isn't okay. And nowadays it's like, you know, kids are on Tumblr by the age of like, by the time they're 11, you know?

Right.

And they're like, they're seeing like, they're seeing all this language at such an early age.

Right.

And, and I just think that's so great. It's so good for people's mental health. Mm-hmm. It's so good for community outcomes. You know, it's so good for like self-esteem. And, and I think that, you know, we're gonna see this generation that's grown up knowing that this was possible, that's grown up understanding themselves in all these nuanced ways and not feeling alone and feeling empowered, like, and, and, and we're just gonna take, like, you know, take on the world, right?

Yeah, because that also leaves it to when you feel like you're the only weird one in the whole entire community and like a small town. That's when I started questioning, like, okay, there's probably no one like me. I'm a woman then, you know, there's nothing else for me than to transition. I'm a, I'm a trans woman. But then when you feel that there's more and more you grow up, you see around you that you don't actually have to choose a box. You don't have to choose to be a woman or a male. It's okay to float between. And I think it's important to see around people that they are like you, so you don't have to just go to trans, right? You know, you know what I mean? The opposite gender.

Exactly.

You can actually be okay with what you're floating around with, right?

And then even just outside of gender, I can't say that the experiences are the same, but for me growing up in Florida in high school before I came out of the closet, it was the same feeling. It's that feeling of—

to say gay, right? Came out of the closet gay, right? We didn't, we didn't talk about you. No, we said gay is just so— everyone gets that.

Yeah, I know, it's so easy.

Gay is like, what else?

They think they get it.

No, that's true, true.

Um, but it was that same feeling of being isolated, of not sure, there's nobody else like me. So it's that same, it's that same fear and that same insecurity that really that it all stems from. But then, I mean, to Danny's point, the whole point of our film is to show that people are just people, that people exist outside of the boxes and the labels. And I mean, the whole premise of our film is that it's about a clueless marketing strategist in San Francisco, and his job is literally to label and categorize people. And after his longtime girlfriend leaves him, he's forced to find a new roommate and ends up forming this unlikely friendship with his new roommate who happens to be genderfluid, and they go on all these adventures in San Francisco together, and it opens his— opens up his eyes to the truth that people are so much more than the labels that we give them. All of these terms, all of these things, they're just words on a spectrum, you know, gender spectrum, political spectrum, racial spectrum, religious spectrum. Everything all exists on a spectrum. And if we continue to divide ourselves up based off of those labels on individual spectrums, we have no chance of ever growing and learning and thriving. And that's the whole point of this film is that we have to see past those labels to develop a person.

Exactly. So I saw a scene. I saw the scene when Donnie, your roommate comes out and you're in a dress. Like he had you, signed you up as his roommate, thought you were a man, like a, you know, and he's like, oh, but now you're wearing a dress and it's so confusing. And you're like, well, some days I wake up and I wear a dress and I feel like a woman, feminine. And some days I'm in the masculine. And how realistic is that in your life? Or would you say for people, like, do you feel like days you— and I'm just curious how it rolls for you.

Yeah, uh, me personally, I feel my style of what I— as a trans feminine non-binary, my style is very, very like tomboyish, right?

As a girl, I love your whole style. Like, I want your boots, I want your shirt.

Yeah, like, I'm not very like, uh, um, in my life as Danny David, like, I'm just, uh, I don't wear like dresses or anything because for me personally, I don't feel like that's my style, right? You know what I mean?

I get it, right?

Yeah, like every— like a normal cisgender or whatever, you know.

But I—

there's so many times where I can literally see the change in my energy. And like, for instance, like going to a gay club, right? Like I go to a gay club, I have sneakers, I have a little bit of a 5 o'clock shadow, still like growing a little bit heavy beard, and like a cap and just a t-shirt with my friend. I, I immediately approach— being approached differently. Than I am when I go with my heels, tight skinny jeans, and a crop top. I immediately— that's the girls' bathroom I go to, and I'm okay with that. And then I go as a male looking, uh, I float.

You float, right?

I go to the groceries, I'm just like, okay, a sweater and a cap. I feel so good because I'm just like, okay, whatever, you know? And it's— for me, it's not like, oh, I'm choosing, right?

It's not a good choice. Exactly. It's how you feel in the moment. Like today, I'm like, do I want to wear heels? I wear my overalls, really easy to put on. I get it, I get it.

It's just like something in something inside your soul that is just like, it can't be explained.

I get it, I'm trying, I'm trying to explain to you this. I wanna understand also like dating for both of you. Explain that to me, like who you're attracted to, does that change as well? You know, men, women, trans, fluid, tell me.

Yeah, I mean, like dating for me has been, it's very interesting because, you know, I mean, if you think about it, it's like, I feel like I wear a little too much lipstick for the gay boys and don't have the right equipment for the straight boys. You know, like it's kind of this interesting thing where, you know, probably the people that I should be dating are like, I think likely like bi or pansexual or sexually fluid dudes, right? But the reality is that while there are like a gazillion people who are actually bi and pan and sexually fluid, like there's like maybe 5 or 6 who are like out, you know? And who like are like, who are, who are like, you know, self-actualized and like living openly and dating openly as bi or pansexual folks, right? Like if you go on, you know, like OkCupid or Tinder or something and search just for bi people, like for bi guys, it's like pretty, you know, it's pretty slim pickings. Yeah. And that's— and that, like, mathematically we know that that's not related to like the actual amount of bisexuality in the world. We know that that's related only to the stigma around bisexuality and pansexuality.

And there is just— yeah, there's a stigma with everything. So with all of this, I think that like in the gay community, like, you can't really be bi, then you're just gay. Or if you're—

you're too femme.

You're too femme, right?

Exactly.

So what about your sexual— like, Have you been with men and women?

The way I frame it, because I try to find the most inclusive sort of broad-ranging way to frame what I want, and I'm like, I'm into, I'm into anyone who wants to get into me.

Okay, I like that. Yeah, so you've been attracted, but that means more, that's more reactive then?

A little bit, yeah. And that's, and that's the trouble, is that I think a lot of times because I'm sort of quote unquote non-traditional, right, because I'm sort of the new thing, I have to be really, I have to pursue really strongly when I want somebody.

When you're masturbating, what fantasizing about?

Well, I mean, like, most of the time it's like, I feel like it's, you know, it's, it's for the most part, it's like masculine of center energy, right?

Like, that's what I'll call masculine of center energy.

Yeah, like masculine-ish on the spectrum energy, right?

Like, I'm into more masculine energy. Like, I really think it— and I understand all that. Like, if you're—

and that's not to say that, like, I couldn't be with someone who is, like, wearing a really fierce lipstick, right? I need— like, it's the energy that I'm into, right? Like, like, and maybe calling it masculine is stupid in this day and age, right? Like, a more—

you can't get rid of masculine or feminine because where the hell are we gonna be? But I feel like we can a little bit, right? Like, I'm like, not today.

Okay. Well, well, I can clarify that. Like, you know, it's, it's more about like a kind of like, like a dominant assertive energy. Right. Because that's not, that's not strictly masculine.

You're right. You know, like if I'm, I'm very in my masculine a lot of times I have to be more in my feminine. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think like, it's about sort of energetically what you seek. That's kind of, people are like, so what's your sexual orientation? And I'm like, oh God, with the boxes and they're not inclusive enough and they're not interesting enough and they're not like sexy enough. I'm like, I want to talk about the energies that I want, you know?

Yeah. What about you, Donnie?

Yeah, I'm agreeing with Jacob. I'm very like with the one dominate. I don't know. Yeah, I like, yeah, like masculine. But I also am very, very— I can get very attracted to like, like a person. I don't care if it's like male or female or trans or, you know, all those.

I understand that.

If like exactly what Jacob says, I'm attracted to energy. And if somebody like gives me that energy that it's like, you know, oh, and I'm just like, oh, I want to get to know you, you know, that's how I would— right now I never like go like, oh, you need to be a male and I will not date anyone else, you know. I'm not like—

no, I understand that. It is more about— it's about attraction, which is like this elusive thing. Like, why am I attracted to— I'm attracted to— and it's more like you're just more— yeah, I get it.

The soul has no gender.

Exactly. True. Oh, beautiful. Max, Jacob, Donnie, Max. Thank you for being here. This is so fun. I'm going to take a quick break, give a shout out to our sponsors. Um, I love you all. Thank you for supporting our sponsors and we'll be right back. Okay. Let's continue our conversation here. Let's talk about gender fluidity and what's going on politically today.

Well, uh, with the, Without getting too political, with the current administration, there are a lot of threats for the entire LGBTQ community. But in terms of the positive and the good and what's actually happening for the community, yeah, there have been state bills across the country that are starting to recognize third genders on government-issued documents. So our film is endorsed by 12 LGBTQ organizations. One of these organizations is the Intersex and Genderqueer Recognition Project, and their entire goal is to increase visibility on government documents. And so in California, the California Gender Recognition Act, which is State Bill 179, would enable people who are transgender, who are intersex, who are non-binary to get a state-issued identity document that accurately reflects their gender expression and their identity.

So that's on the ballot right now, you're saying, or it's going to be?

Yep. So it passed the California Senate, and I believe it has passed the Assembly, and it is now going to Governor Brown's desk to be signed. In California, it would be—

Governor, okay.

Yeah. But it's progress. And California, if it passes, would be the second state to do it. Oregon also passed this bill, as well as Washington, D.C., which was the first, which is not a state, but it's the first. Place that put this into motion, because the government documents are so important. Because you ask somebody who's non-binary who to show their ID, they may not have an ID that accurately reflects their, their identity. Um, and according to—

so what would it say then? For— it says like male, female.

Yeah. So if they were assigned male at birth, it may still say male and they haven't been able to get a female ID.

No, but what would it say under the new legislation?

Non-binary.

Yeah, in some places they have like, you can just, you can have like an X or like an NA or like an, like a, or like there's, yeah, there's kind of a bunch of different options that are on the table in terms of like, you know, across the country and around the world too. 'Cause they have other countries have these kinds of designations, right. You know, for what, what they can look like. And I mean, it's really great 'cause it's, you know, I feel like for me, it feels like the sort of M on my driver's license just feels like inviting, you know, like a police officer pulls me over or inviting, you know, some like person at the airport to like give me a shitty look or to like discriminate against me or to like, you know, just kind of look at you and be like, huh? You know, like it feels like it, it just, it's just opening the door for them to be like, well, this doesn't, this, what I'm seeing in front of me doesn't line up with what I, what I see on this paper.

Right. No, I could see that. And then when it says non-binary, I could also be like, what does that mean? Like, you know, there's gonna be so much education that comes along with it, but these bills pass, then we'll get that. But I could see that being like a, Yeah, I'm sure you guys get a lot of that.

And part of me is like, you know, there are moments when I'm like, I think it's great to expand options, but I'm also kind of like, do we have to have gender on all of our ID docs? Like, you know, like, why do we really need it on a driver's license?

Right?

Like, what are they— what do we need it for?

I was also— I mean, this is not really related, but I just saw that the Boy Scouts are now going to be accepting Girl Scouts.

Yeah. What?

Yeah, they're going to be accepting. Whoa. Which is, which is amazing. So now my next question is Why can't we just have Scouts? Why does it have to be Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts? And why does it have to be, you know, why can't we just have a Scout?

Aren't there? And there's already Girl Scouts. So what's going to happen if they're like, I don't want to be in the Girl Scouts, I want to be the Boy Scouts, or just the Scouts?

I just think we should make everyone join Girl Scouts, right? Yeah, everyone has to be Girl Scouts.

We can just like—

I mean, I did do Boy Scouts when I was a kid and actually kind of loved it because I loved the woods and I loved— I loved whittling. Like when you're like, you know, like with a knife, like make little sculptures out of soap. Yeah, you learn on soap before you whittle wood. And I like loved that part and like tying knots and like arts and crafts parts of it.

Right.

Um, but I don't know. I feel like if we're going to dissolve anyone, like if we're going to sort of like force anyone into like giving up their name, either we're going to do this, we should do gender neutral Scouts or we should just make everybody be Girl Scouts.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, then that probably won't happen.

Balance out like, you know, a few hundred years of history.

But I feel like it's funny. Cause I remember when the whole thing was about like gays being gay boys being discriminated against in the Boy Scouts like years ago. And now it's the girls can join it. So that's, that's progress for the Scouts. I think it'd just be Scouts. I agree. Yeah. Okay, so that— you're right, that just happened this week.

And I think conversations about this are, you know, expanding everywhere, not just in the Girl Scouts and not just politically, but in the media.

And who do we see in the media right now, do you think, who would be representative of—

TV, I feel like, has been doing a really good job of getting inclusivity on, on screen. I know Asia Kate Dillon is the first non-binary actor in a non-binary role on a major TV show. And that is huge. Asia has really paved the way for non-binary identities. And then shows like Shameless and shows like The Fosters have really started embracing these other identities. And Roseanne, the reboot.

The reboot, yeah.

The reboot of Roseanne may introduce a gender-fluid character on it, which is great.

Yeah, they're getting a lot of backlash for that too.

They are.

Of course. That's how everything starts, right? Gotta get the backlash, I guess, to get the intention.

There's a lot of people who, you know, have their very strong opinions about things, which is fine. Film, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be as forward-moving in that. I mean, as far as—

That's why you're here.

That's why we're here, 'cause as far as we can tell from all of our research, Elle will be one of the first films, if not the first film, to star a gender non-binary actor in a gender non-binary role. There have been other films that touch on this, but it really hasn't— we haven't seen anybody in the forefront of that role. And so Elle will hopefully be one of the first.

Yes, people can check it out on your website.

Yes, ElleTheMovie.com, like the letter L, TheMovie.com.

Okay, congratulations on that. Everyone check that out. And then also I wanted to ask Jacob and Donnie, so let's say— and Max, of course— if people are like, let's say people are living with working with, have friends that are thinking like, I'm not sure, maybe they're gender fluid, I can't really tell, I don't really know how to approach it with them or talk about it because it can be like, I didn't even today, I'm like, how do I mess up? Are they, are they they? Are they there? Am I going to mess up, call you guys something wrong, which I already did? I'm like, you're cisgender, I'm not cisgender. It's very confusing. And even I think I know a little bit more than most. How would you recommend that people kind of bring up these conversations when they're like, I don't even— because you'd welcome it, I'm sure, right? You guys are all about educating and like, let me Yeah, yeah.

I mean, for me, like, the number one rule is just like, be chill. Yeah, you know, I mean, and that's like oversimplified. I can explain a little bit more about what that means, but like, the hardest part a lot of times about like being gender non-conforming, and especially being like trans feminine in public, is just like managing other people's anxiety.

Right? It's so true.

I walk into a room and I can just like feel everyone being like, oh God, is this okay? Is everything okay? And I have to be like, it's fine, everybody, everything's Everything's cool, I'm here, it's all gonna be fine. You don't have to go scramble and change the whole layout of the room all of a sudden. I think that it's about having a chill and a real confidence that you care about this person. So even if you mess up, it doesn't have to be like, if you use the wrong pronoun or something for a sec, it doesn't have to be like, oh God, I just mortally offended you. It can be more like, oh, sorry about that. Wait, which one do you use? Oh, okay, cool. And then just work on it. I don't think of myself, other people may they think of me this way, but I don't think of myself as some like big scary non-binary ogre walking into the room being like, if anyone messes up, I will destroy you, you know? I'm like, I just think it's, it's like, be chill. And the other thing I will say is like, if you've got questions, asking someone is great, but the even better thing is that there's this thing called Wikipedia, and like you can do some research before, you know. It's like, I feel like making it an accepting environment for someone is like being a good like hotel concierge. You know, like you think of shit before other people, you do a little work in advance of like helping someone else feel welcome. You know, it's like if I'm your client and you're trying to make me feel welcome, like you're gonna wanna know a little bit about me. You're gonna wanna know a little bit about my, or if you're having me on your podcast, you're gonna read my bio before I come on, you know?

And watch your videos.

Yeah. And so it's like, you can do the same thing. Like you can actually do a little bit of like prep and like, you know, if you're confused about, okay, well, what's this versus this versus this? Like, you don't have to necessarily ask the person right away. You can like, do a little bit of reading and a little research so that you have a more informed conversation to have. And people will totally appreciate that because I can't tell you how many times people are very well-meaning, but I'll be like at a gala, like drinking some wine in like a gorgeous floor-length gown, and I'm trying to like network and hustle and do my career thing. And then I end up giving someone like a genderqueer 101, like at the, you know, Beverly Hilton. And I'm just like, I want to be like eating a, like, you know, my dinner, not like giving what would— like gender 101 here. Yeah, like I've literally made videos about it. You can just go watch that, you know.

We're Where can people find your videos? Or we can also link to them on the site.

Yeah, so, um, I did a whole sort of like, uh, informative series for NBC News a year back called Queer 2.0, and there's a bunch of videos there that touch on all that kind of stuff. And then also, you know, if you just go to my website, jacobtobiah.com, I have a whole bunch of different articles.

Oh, perfect.

All kinds of—

that's a great place to start. Okay, yeah. Do you want to answer this as well, or Donnie, of how you would like to be approached? And also, I want to know, like, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding that people have? That was my next question, if you want to.

Most of them I've gotten is like, so you, you are a girl or a boy, right? Or what do you want to be? And I'm just like, I always go like, I am me, okay? Like, calm down, I'm me. And I can get a little bit feisty sometimes because I've been, I've been approached a little bit aggressively sometimes. So, and I have that Middle Eastern from my mother, you know. I'm very like, I stand my ground. I'm very protective of myself. But I'm also all about inviting, you know what I mean? I'm very inviting. So I, I get a lot of that, but I'm always open. But it happens when I'm at a bar with my friends. We've talked about this in our gender talk for Elle, and it mostly is like at parties or when it's like a lot of cisgender, because I have a lot of cisgender friends. Uh, usually it's bars I get approached a lot, and, and that's when I'm like, okay, I kind of want to enjoy with my friends. And then there's always one who's like, what are you? And I'm just like, okay, let's have a cigarette and let's talk then, you know? But I actually just want to enjoy my time.

I get it.

But then I'm like, I— every day I'm always to someone, uh, I feel like I always have to explain.

Every day?

Yeah, yeah, every day.

Yeah, someone asked every day.

Not just ask, but yeah, most of the time ask, yeah, but also approaches in a— yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, right?

I always like joke with my friends that I'm like, oh yeah, like when I— like being famous is going to be easy, like when I get there, you know, like because they just, they just want to take a picture with you.

But now it's like you got to talk.

And also like, also like everyone's like, you know, everyone's already staring at me, you know. So it's like people like— I'll go on like— I'll go on the subway with friends who haven't walked around in public with me before when I'm presenting really very feminine, you know. Like this is— I would say like the outfit I'm wearing now, it's like a cute little fem-ish center blazer and then like some lipstick and some eyeliner and and some earrings and a necklace. This outfit I'd probably say is like a 5 out of 10 on the getting stared at scale. But if I just wear a straight up summer dress and I walk down the street, I mean, it's nonstop eyeballs. A few catcalls, a few slurs. And my friends will be like, oh my gosh, how do you deal with that? And I'll be like, they were looking at me, what? I just zoned it out. So I'm like, yeah, once I'm in movies and get where I'm going in my career, I'll be like, oh, it's fine, it's whatever. People already stared at me at lunch. Now they're just staring at me because they buy my stuff.

Exactly.

Yeah, they stare a lot. And I'm beyond that point too now where I've just— I just zone out and I just don't care even though it's negative or positive. I'm, I, you know, I just— because I mean, I'm wearing pretty like chill outfit, but I mean, I got my heels on, but it's fabulous. And it took me years. Sam Edelman, 7 years of a hunt. Uh, like, like, just those heels can like, you know, get, you know, just some energy, negative energy or whatever. But I've just learned to zone it out. And I just can't do it anymore, you know?

Right, right.

Because it took so many years to wear these heels, right?

Exactly. Yeah, it's a great conversation. We've said a lot here. I love it. Emails. Okay, if you have a question you want me to answer on the show, that's amazing. There's two ways you can do it. You can text 797979, one word. You're going to text Ask Emily, and then you're going to get a message back, and it's going to have a link where you're going to be able to ask your question. Or you can go to sexwithemily.com via the Ask Emily tab. And as always, please include your gender, your age, where you live, and how you listen to the show. Dear Emily, I started to explore my gender fluidity just prior to getting serious with my now wife. I'm not sure I totally figured it out beforehand, and my wife is aware of it. She's not on board with me exploring as she views it as cheating. Any recommendations on how to drive the conversation with her? Thank you, Dan. I think just— he's gender fluid and he got married and she kind of knows about it, and he wants to be able to explore, I guess. I guess, which, which is more like, I could see her seeing that as cheating. Like, we signed up for monogamy, you're my husband. If he feels that he's gender fluid, then he's not going to be able to probably just kind of cut that part, right? You guys can't just stop.

I think if you're in a monogamous relationship and you've committed to a monogamous relationship and you're with— and your partner understood it as monogamous, like, it's fair for them to say, I don't want you like fucking other people. Even if you— even if there's a part of you that you feel you need to explore, like, that's part of what comes with monogamy, is like you kind of agree to explore or all of the parts of yourself with the person you're with, you know? And, and I mean, like, you know, if what that means for the relationship, I don't exactly know. But I do feel like, you know, if you, if you committed to monogamy and like you're tried and you talk to your partner about maybe opening things up and they're not into that, like gender fluid or not, like that's something you have to address as a, as a couple.

I would say, yeah, it's tough. It's not even a gender fluid issue. It's more like the people who email me every day saying I want to have a threesome or an open relationship, my partner's on board. So there's a lot more going, you know, down.

I don't feel like you get a pass, like, just because you're here, like, experimenting with your gender identity doesn't mean you get to, like, break the rules of your relationship, right? Like, without, you know, in a non— like, in a way that's non-consensual with your partner.

Exactly. And I think that she might also be very confused right now if there's something that she was— she said that she was aware of it, but there's a lot of education that goes into it. So maybe I think therapy would be really useful, finding a really good therapist that understands this, that can kind of help your wife understand what you're going through. It's not just like a choice, that it's truly who you are and finding ways to deal with it.

So one of our other endorsers for the film is Dara Hoffman Fox, who is a licensed gender therapist, and she is amazing.

Oh, good.

Okay, amazing.

Where is she? Uh, people— can she like do Skype calls or—

Yeah, I've Skyped with Dara many times.

Cool. Um, that's good. Okay, Dan, Dara Hoffman?

Dara Hoffman Fox. Yeah. Okay, Dara Hoffman Fox, which Dara actually— I guess now is a good time— Dara actually wrote this new book that just got released, I think this week.

Wow.

It's called You and Your Gender Identity: A Guide to Discovery by Dara Hoffman Fox. And we all signed this, and this is for you.

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited.

You can have that.

Well, you guys are going to leave with a bunch of sex toys. Yes. Thank you so much. But pro quo, like, can we just finish this? I showed him a little flash this. I like— thank you. I need—

no, so this, I mean, it may, it may be able to— I've skimmed through it. I haven't been able to get through the whole book just yet, uh, but it's brand new, hot off the presses, um, and it's a great—

yeah, thank you. I appreciate you guys. Yeah, we'll put this on the site as well. All right, if you want to read more.

I think it's good that he talks to a therapist because maybe he's gender fluid also. He probably— he's meaning also that he wants to explore with his himself. Like, maybe he wants to wear a dress, you know?

That— you're right, it might not just be sexually.

Exactly, because he might be one attracted to— maybe he wants to try with a male in a dress. You never know. Like, if he's mentioning gender fluid, I think he should talk to a therapist.

Yeah, I think so too.

It's something between him and his wife. They need to figure that out.

Good points. Okay, another question. Dear Emily, as a male who identified as bisexual for many years, I get confused with all the terms out there describing people and their identity. Enough so at this point I question if I identify myself correctly. Normally I don't like to label myself or anyone, as we are who we are. It's become difficult to meet and date people because they use labels and tend to want to play within their group, so to speak. So I'm perplexed. Do I keep on doing what I do, which is freely enjoying sex with males and females, enjoy playing the feminine side from time to time? I don't find myself attracted to men in a relationship sort of way, only women. but I can easily be sexual with men. The more I look at it, the more confused I get. I just don't know if I should jump on the label bandwagon and identify myself with one or more labels. Any advice would be great. Thank you, Jeff G. There's a whole lot going on there, Jeff G.

Well, Jeff, first off, call me. And, you know, I think, I think secondly, labels, like, I think we have a lot of preoccupation with our labels. Um, and, and half of my— half of my heart is like, it's really important because I'm a writer, and so the words I use to describe myself feel so vital. But I think the other— that even that same half of my heart is kind of like, but the idea that we must only choose one word to describe our sexuality, must only choose one word to describe our gender identity— I mean, it frankly, it feels like bullshit to me. I feel like if you're designing like the Google Form of life and you're putting in like gender identity, like it's, it's like a long form, like 500-word minimum essay question. And I think the same thing is true of your sexuality and your sexual experience. You know, like I think that you don't have to necessarily find one word that sums up conveniently who you are to everyone, nor do you need to have one word in order to find partners that are great for you.

Yeah.

Cuz you can just suss out the energy in the room.

Right. You know, I guess he's feeling just the pressure, right?

Because, um, And also, yeah, like, don't— maybe it's not going to be easier once you find a term either. Like Carmen Carrera said in the new TV show about the models, she says she's passing as a cisgender, and once you do that as a trans woman, there's a whole nother shit show, you know?

Exactly.

And it's the same here. I think— I don't think Jeff is going to—

he's kind of caught up on the wrong problem.

Yeah, like, yeah, he should be focusing more on like just enjoying and taking moment by moment. You don't have to— just because you will have a term as a genderqueer, whatever, it's not going to make it easier for you to make up your mind what you want. Like, just relax and just meet, just have sex with energy, right?

Right, right, right, right. So maybe he's part of the movement. He's like, should I jump on the label bandwagon? I think we're saying no.

Well, Jeff, there's a whole nother shit show if you—

yeah, I just see— you know, I don't think he has to necessarily, but I also think that he also owes it to his partners to, to love like to love or fuck or make love or whatever, whatever he's doing with them without shame or stigma. Right. I think that for me, sometimes when there are people who are having trouble with how to describe their identity, part of it is coming from a place that they have still some residual shame from growing up in a world that makes it difficult to be attracted to the same sex or difficult to be gender fluid or difficult, you know, like difficult to sort of embrace your gender or your sexuality. And my thing is I'm like, you don't have to land on a label, Jeff. What you have to do is ensure that you're loving and fucking without shame and empathetically and kindly and consensually and good. No one should feel like they have to like leave your place through the back door or that they're like some like small weird side thing.

Yeah.

Unless of course that's what turns you on.

Right, exactly. We don't judge. But, but, you know, I think the shame thing, I think people feel shame no matter what their gender, sexual identity, orientation.

I've been on the receiving end of that shame of people who are like attracted attracted to me but then are a little bit ashamed of taking me out in public or ashamed of admitting to their friends that they're attracted to me. And that feels disastrous. I don't care what word you use to describe yourself, but if you're going to love me or fuck me, you need to love me or fuck me without shame.

Like own it, yeah.

That's the only way it's hot.

Okay, thank you. That's very helpful. How can everyone find you? Everyone. Do we already talk about like elthemovie.com?

Yeah, elthemovie.com, all of our, our social media handles are @LTheMovie2017.

Okay.

And yeah, well, um, I'm— well, first you can find me through— I'm signed with Transgender Talent.

Okay.

And Thomas.

Okay.

So that's usually how it's the best way.

Yeah.

Okay. Or Instagram.

Instagram.

Danny David bitch.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm at, um, on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, everything, @JacobTobia, T-O-B-I-A. Um, and also jacobtobia.com. And I do a lot of like public speaking. I, you know, if you want to bring me to your campus, to your community, to your company, any of that stuff, you know, I do a lot of that already. I have a robust practice. So hit me up and jaygotubaya.com has all the contact information you could want.

I love it. Well, thank you. Thank you for being here, being so brave with your stories. And I think this has been really helpful for me and my audience, my listeners. So thank you. It's been great.

Thank you.

It's been great.

So fun. Okay. And thank you to my amazing team. Thank you to Ken, Jamie, our interns, Producer Lark, Mikey there on the sound. And, um, thanks everyone for listening. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.