How to Be a Better Partner w/ John Kim & Vanessa Bennett

I don't need a sex dungeon, but I do like a little kink. You know, in the beginning, you're exploring. It's hot and heavy. It's a honeymoon. And so I just pulled that card out. I was like, hey, can I slap you? And she's like, no, well, you can, but I'm gonna slap you back. And I was like, oh, it doesn't work that way. And I knew in that second that, okay, there's gonna be a journey here. There's gonna have to be exploration, compromise. She's not into some of the things that I'm into.

You're list. Welcome to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Dating as an adult is exhausting. While experience comes with age, actually applying that experience is easier said than done, even for professionals. With me today are two therapy professionals who also happen to be partners, John Kim and Vanessa Bennett. Their book It's Not Me, it's yous offers an anecdotal roadmap of how to relationship better. From overcoming commitment issues to fanning the sex flames to breaking the blame cycle, John and Vanessa expertly dissect their own relationship to inspire us to create healthy bonds with the people we love. Listen to learn why the One is a myth. How to wean ourselves off codependency, and how to replace obligatory sex with erotic collaboration. Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the podcast. It just helps get the podcast out to more people like you. You can find us on all social media. It is Sex with Emily. And don't forget to check out my new articles, vaginal health solutions you didn't know existed and how to give an erotic massage on our website, sex with emily.com. all right, everyone, enjoy this episode.

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John Kim is the best selling author of Single On Purpose, I Used to Be a Miserable Fuck and co author of the book It's Not Me, it's you. Creator both of the Catalyst life coaching course and blog turned podcast the Angry Therapist. John's pioneering work in the field of self help impacts millions daily. Learn more at the Angry Therapist. Vanessa Bennett is an author, holistic psychotherapist, clinical entrepreneur. In addition to a suite of online courses and in person retreats, Vanessa offers therapy and coaching in private practice, helping clients discover soul based growth and fulfillment. She's the co author of the book It's Not Me, it's you. Learn more@vanessabennet.com. thank you for being here Vanessa Bennett and John Kim. Your book It's Not Me, it's you. Break the Blame Cycle Relationship Better. So congratulations on this book. And so what I love is you're using your own relationship kind of as a roadmap for couples to tackle their own issues in this book, which is really brave and really vulnerable. I think oftentimes right as a therapist, people expect, well, you should have it all together, but you guys put it all out there, which I think is such a gift and it's a roadmap a lot of us can use. But can you tell me about that?

Yeah, and thank you for noticing that. That was kind of our goal. Was the tone of the book being just as important as the content, meaning as therapists pulling the curtain back and letting people know that we're not perfect, we have struggles. John Kim knows nothing about sex, by the way, so all questions will be toward Vanessa. Yeah, we're real people, you know, and we struggle with a lot of things. So just because we are a therapist doesn't mean that we have Our shit together.

Yeah. Well, I think that's what you highlight in this book, is that you're never done. And I say this with sex, too, is that it's not like you get somewhere with sex. You're like, all right, I'm the sex master and I am done now check. Now I can go learn something else. Just like relationships, you're consistently honing these skills and working together. Can you kind of open the book talking about these misconceptions? I think, or explaining, like, how it's different, like dating in your 30s and beyond. Like, can you talk about that process of finding each other and what that's been like?

Yeah, I think one of the biggest misconceptions. So I will say first that the book, obviously we wanted to talk about our own kind of shortcomings, like you said, but it's really rooted in, as therapists who work with couples, we notice that, you know, I always say, I got to count the number of chapters. But let's say the top 10 issues that our clients are struggling, struggling with are also the same issues that we're struggling with. And so it's one of those, like, you're not that special. Like, we're all in this together, you know? And so, I mean, we might have more tools, but we're struggling with the same thing. We thought that would be really helpful. But this idea of the one or happily ever after, we just felt like it was such an unhealthy belief that got so many couples into trouble. Right. It's a societally passed down idea. Right. It's the Disney movies. It's the. Everything ends at the wedding. Every rom com you've ever seen ends at the wedding.

Right?

You never see five years into Cinderella and Prince Charming's wedding when she's screaming at him to pick up his socks for the hundredth time. Right.

Or that when she tells him that I've been faking my orgasm since I've known you.

Exactly.

And why is that?

Right?

Like, why are we trained to believe that there's going to be this one person that's going to complete us, that once we meet them, our whole lives are going to improve? You know, nothing's going to be hard from here on out. We're going to have magical sex and orgasms. Right. And it's just such bullshit number. But also it's a thing to hide behind so that when something does get hard, there's an escape hatch. Right. There's an eject button that I can say, well, obviously this isn't right. Because if it were right, it wouldn't feel this way. Right.

You wouldn't be the one.

You're not the one. Yeah.

We believe the one is the one in front of you.

The one in front of you. I love this because even people still say, well, relationships shouldn't take work. Right. If it's meant to be, it shouldn't take work. But I think you're showing here not only like, is it work, but here's how to do the work. Was that sort of the intention behind the book? And then where do we start?

That's such a damaging sentence. And I've heard this as well. If the relationship is good, it's meant to be, it should be easy, and it shouldn't take work. And like, I mean, even. Even talking about intimacy and in the bedroom, I think a lot of people feel like chemistry is laid and there's no work. And, you know, if people aren't having the best sex of their lives, then something's wrong. And that's not true.

Yeah, it takes learning each other. It takes understanding each other. It takes those conflicts usually actually to get to the other side and know each other better, understand each other better. I think it's partly that too. It's like, can we get to the other side?

It's so interesting. You said, seeing you conflicts, that you kind of went through the top questions you said, or the 10 questions you get asked by couples realizing that you also struggle with those. Could we kind of start with some of those? Is there one that just comes to you like, okay, like someone sits in your office like, yep, this is the issue. I mean, what is the one that we. Where can we all start?

Well, I think that the ones that probably people are the most familiar with because of the Instagram pop psychology world. Right. So different attachment styles is a big one that we see frequently in our practices and in our. Our own life. Different love languages. There's this dance between this over functioner, under functioner that we get into in the book, which is a big one.

Yeah.

The title of that chapter is always one that pulls people in because it's I'm not your mother, you're not my son.

Yeah, I love it. Tell me about that.

Which we all, a lot of us can relate to.

Yeah, right. And it's interesting because as we go through these, Vanessa and I are very different. So I'm anxiously attached. She's avoidantly attached. My love languages is words of affirmation. Hers is more acts of service. I'm the under functioner. She's the over functioner. Right. So two different extremes because we've been working ourselves and you know, there's a spectrum, but that's kind of how we are and so how that shows up in relationship. So let's talk about the.

Yeah, so the over and under functioner is interesting because so much of this is based in codependency, so much of this is based in society, how women have been kind of wired and taught that it's our job to take care of everybody in our household. Right. And in our lives to the detriment of ourselves. And we, we don't want to genderize it. I mean, I do know women in heteronormative couples where the woman tends to be the under functioner. And you can also under function and over function in different areas of your relationship. So I might say that in like the doing air quotes, I over function, but sometimes in the vulnerability and the intimacy, I under function.

I want to stop you there because I think that under function, over function is a new concept for many. Can we like, let's break it down. I mean, I know you do the book, but let's just. They're going to have to buy the book. But let's just start with high level here, right?

So high level, under functioning and over functioning are, are both a way that we deal with anxiety, right? So for an over functioner, when we get anxious, when we get activated, we deal with that anxiety or soothe that anxiety by functioning, by doing, by fixing, solving, swooping in, managing, right. All of these very like masculine kind of left brain qualities. For an under functioner, masculine energy, masculine, energetic, energetics, right. For the under functioner it tends to be that in the, in the relationship to anxiety, I pull back, I withdraw. I believe truly at my core that I'm actually not capable. And so I just won't. Right. I won't put myself out there because I don't believe that I can. I'm not going to do it, right. I'm not going to do it to your standard and so I just won't do it. And so in a lot of ways they obviously are very opposite and they, you could see that as I'm going well together, but unfortunately if it's not addressed and spoken about, there also can be a lot of resentment that comes up a lot, especially from the over functioner. The under functioner gets either made to feel like a child, so again, I won't genderize it, but they're made to feel like a child. And so there's a parental Dynamic in the relationship, which is not sexy. Right. Esther Perel talks a lot about that. Right. How we are not wired to have sex with our offspring. And so the second parental dynamics come into play, we.

Not hot. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

So let's move into the fanning the flames. Your chapter, I just got to read it for everyone because I was like, oh, yes, we're going to go there. So John says the book is a he said, she said where, which I love is that you guys tackle these really important issues in every chapter that I think anyone in a relationship is going to deal with. But then you get John's perspective and then Vanessa's, which are sometimes conflicting or complimentary. And you can kind of see yourselves in both of you, which I love. John says when Vanessa and I first started to get intimate, I asked her if I could see slap her while we were making out about to have sex. She looked at me and very seriously said, if you slap me, I'm going to slap you back. In that moment, I knew we spoke very different languages in the bedroom. I like a little kink. She likes long massages. That's what I have. I could keep going, but, yeah, tell me more about that.

I mean, I want to start by saying I'm a New Yorker, so I'm very blunt and direct. I love it.

I don't need a sex dungeon, but I do like a little kink. You know, in the beginning, you're exploring. It's hot and heavy. It's a honeymoon. And so I just pulled that card out. I was like, hey, okay, slapping. And she's like, no, well, you can, but I'm going to slap you back. And I was like, oh, it doesn't work that way. And I knew in that second that, okay, there's going to be a journey here. There's going to have to be exploration, compromise. She's not into some of the things that I'm into.

Well, I. Let me stop you, though. It's not necessarily that I'm not into the things that you're into. I think what it is is that I need to feel more emotional safety before I can. Well, actually, it's one or the other. Either I can be like, I was in my 20s and have one night stands that I kind of did some of that crazier stuff, but I didn't care. Or now that I'm with somebody that I care about, I need to feel a little bit more emotionally safe before I can go there.

So are you saying that now that you do feel safe? I Can. Is that something?

That was my next question.

So you're saying there's a chance.

As long as I can slap you back, we're fine.

Not hot for John.

Emily. I don't want to be one of us has to be the dominant one of us. Just as role plays.

Well, the masculine, feminine too. If someone has to lead and someone has to follow, there's the polarities or then nothing's happened. Right. If you're both laying there waiting to be slapped, in a sense, someone has to lead a father, whether it's a slap or a kiss or something. So maybe it's not that kind of kink. But what I think a lot of couples, and what you talk about too, is how you sort of found different desire styles. Right. You kind of like how you guys have figured out your desire and your arousal and how you get turned on. So however you. But what has been the journey with that? Because it's very common that someone's like, my partner wants to choke me or my partner wants to talk dirty. And I don't. I mean, it's one of the most common things that happens with sex and it's compromised. It's a lot of talking. It's, you know. So maybe you could share more about that.

I. I will say that desire types was really mind blowing for me when I found out about this concept and this is a new discovery in the last year of this idea of spontaneous versus responsive desire. I was floored and it normalized so much for me. Right. So I'm sure you've talked about this before on your podcast, but knowing that most men, 75% of men rank as spontaneous and about 75% of women rank as responsive. Responsive. And so I need to be turned on before I want to have sex. He can want to have sex before being turned on. Right. That in and of itself is a mind blowing thing to understand about the two of us. So if I come home and John has like cooked dinner and done the dishes, I'm so much more already, like, prone to being like, oh, I'm feeling seen, I'm feeling taken care of. My love language is acts of service. I'm starting to get those wheels turning. I'm more open to being sexual.

Right.

He's not like that.

Yeah. And it's the chicken or the egg. Because if I'm getting a lot of sex, I will definitely make dinner and wash the car and mow the lawn and do a lot of activ. Service just because I'm now elevated. I feel loved and feeling Connected. So it's like, how do we create this where it's feeding into each other instead of one person waiting for the other person to do it and then it's just kind of a.

Never happens.

That is really tricky. But really just a matter of talking about it and like knowing yourselves, I suppose, and being like. I realize now it's been a week or two and I'm kind of getting to get the sense in my body that we probably need more of a connection right now. Or it's planning it. It's planning for sex. It's knowing that if we go this whole week without it, I know this is how I'm going to feel on Sunday. And. And then Vanessa can say, well, this is. I don't know if you're asking for advice now, but I would say that it's, it's really about planning. It's really about like we know what this week is going to look like or this next month. How do we find time where it's going to feel good for both of us? And I think the concept of spontaneous and responsive, which I think Emily Nagoski in her book Come as yous Are, really breaks this down so well for people. The thing is, it's not necessarily a new concept, but it's such a great concept because when people grasp it, they're like, oh. Because I think so many vulva owners walk around feeling like something is wrong with them because when they're. If they're with their penis owning partner walks into the room and they see us and they're so turned on and they're ready to go and you see their erection, you're like, I'm not even there yet. Like I'm still finishing a text and taking care of the baby and all these things. And then you feel bad. Why aren't I just turned on like that? But then to learn that we respond to stimuli and some of the stimuli it sounds like it might be cleaning the house or doing things, but there might be other things you could explore. Explore. Like what? I've learned too, Vanessa, because I'm. I'm the same way. Like if my partner just comes in and whatever and I'm not ready, like I need to have. The house has to be clean. Even if I do it myself, I'm fine with that. We actually don't live together, so I. But if it's cluttery and I still have work open. No, I need to at least do a three to five minute breath work or a meditation if it's. If it doesn't work if he comes in at seven o'clock and I'd be going for 15 hours or whatever. Like, I need the space. So if I don't have that divide between work and seeing him, then it doesn't work. I need to have showered. I need to have just. I need to have talked to him too. Like, I don't typically, unless I haven't seen him for a while, go right into the sex. So if it's cold in his apartment when I get there, his house.

I'm shut down. Cold, no sex.

I'm like, check.

I'm like, turn on the heat. Because it's not like I just. So I've had to learn what those things are and express them in the most loving and not judgmental way I can. So now when I get there, I'm skip throwing out things. That's worked, I guess for me is that. Which I haven't really talked about. But he's like, I turn the heat on, baby. Like the fireplace is on, you know, because he's just trying to. All because I try to point it out, like, this is why I'm not turned on. Or this is. So I think that's what it is. And you're constantly figuring out for both of you because you've decided that you're gonna be each other's sex partners. Like finding the environments different ways that you just know that you'll both be ready for it and when it'll work.

Emily, listen, the. The only thing I need, Emily, is permission.

Permission.

That's all I have, permission.

What does that mean? Say more about that.

Well, it was half jokingly, but you know what it means? It means that she's not doing it just for me. So there is. It's aligned with a desire. It doesn't have to match my desire, but it does. Then if it starts to feel like an obligation, then I don't want it.

Well, this is something we've been talking about a lot more recently, right? And it's this idea I think, you know, I'm pushing 40 and I think I've really started to. Especially having a daughter now I have a two and a half year old. And it's really changed my relationship to my body and to owning my desire and agency. And I think, you know, John and I have talked about this almost ad nauseam at this point where society doesn't give women permission to have agency, right? Like our body is not ours, our desire is not ours. Right. It's really more about the men, their desire Their ego. Right. And so as I've gotten older and I've been taking a lot of this power back, which maybe even a little bit of an extreme way. We have talked about this and struggled with this a lot.

Right.

Like, what does it mean for me to say no and really own my no and just allow you to be upset with that and not feel like I have to fix it. Right. And this is a lot of the codependency recovery work I talk so much about in the book, as well as just my platform in general. And so this is the phase that we're in right now. And it's great because John is aligned in the like, well, I don't want it if you're just doing it for me anyway. Right. So at least we're covered in the basis there.

Well, I was going to say that. Do you know what the. Because to say the permission thing, what I'm hearing is. And we don't have to get into all this now, Vanessa, but do you know when you and I get bodies changing and having a baby and all the things in the hormones, there's a lot. But I guess the next step might be finding out when you are aroused. So then you can let John know, like, what does get you in the mood? What does turn you on?

I was doing your checklist. Like, I'm totally with you on so many of the things that you said. You know, I think for me, again, it's because I am the doer. Because I am. I tend to dip into more of the masculine, which the reality is, is that early motherhood is very masculine in its energy. It's hard for me to soften into the feminine and the sens and the receptive energy when I'm. I've got lists upon lists in my mind and I gotta pick her up from school at this time and does she have her lunchbox and. Right. So I was half joking about the dishes. It's not really about the dishes. It's more about when I feel that my partner is seeing me in that and is taking and owning some of that mental load without me having to ask for it or give instructions. That makes me feel like I'm partnered. It makes me feel seen. And in that feeling of being seen, I get turned on.

It's helpful for me to know that a Runway is required. And that's not a choice thing, but it's a wiring thing. So that helps me be more empathetic and understanding. And I take it. I take it less as a rejection or a personal Thing, but that's her wiring.

Like the arousal run. So you're kind of referring to, like, her arousal Runway, which. I love that concept, too. Like the Runway. Like, what needs to happen for Vanessa. Okay, good. Sounds like you guys. We're always in it, right?

She's a plane, and I'm a helicopter. I need no Runway. I just need air.

I feel like I see you guys so clearly. Well, we can move on to this too, though, because you talk about chemistry. I've often said the person that you're the most attracted to, you're like, this is my person. Sometimes you should stop and think, maybe I should turn and walk away. Like, when you have that chemistry and you call that lightning in the bottle, sexual chemistry, like, healthy kind of versus unhealthy chemistry. You want to talk about that? Like, how do we know it feels so good, but you're saying it's not good.

It's different for every individual. I don't think there's a blanket answer, but I know that I defined attraction as what we're saying now. You lock eyes across the room, and the hairs in the back of your neck goes up, and then that's the one you know? And I think now that if it's that strong, it could actually be dysfunction. Because if you grew up in chaos or you grew up in addiction, or if you grew up where there was just a lot of dysfunction, subconsciously, you may be tracing that. And that is what you may be mistaking for chemistry, because that feels exciting. And then when you find someone boring.

Safety feels boring to a lot of people.

Yeah. Especially in the beginning, you know, and this is why I think a lot of people say, yeah, I keep dating the same person.

Yeah, that's exactly it. We have to go back and do our work. And that's. I think that's also a big part of your book that people are going to get. And it's not me, it's you. Is that it really is all about you both come to this place later in life where you're doing the work, you've done the work, which is very different.

We're still doing it, by the way. There's no finish line, but, like, it's.

Owning your shit, Right? So many times couples will come in. I would say almost all of the time. And it's immediately, like, fix my partner. Right? Like, they're doing this wrong. This is why we're unhappy. Make it different. Fix them. And so much of what we talk about as therapists and. And a couple is owning your part like, own your 100%, which is hard to do.

I was actually just thinking, God, you guys should see couples together. It'd be so helpful. Like, you could help people mirror. I don't know if you guys ever thought to do that, or maybe it'd be good for a podcast or something. What I think is so interesting is that I hear from so many of my listeners all the time, every gender. There's always one partner who's like, let's go to therapy. And one who's like, when hell freezes over. So what would you say to people who are on the fence about it or don't want to do it? Or how. Also, how would they convince their partner to get into therapy? Like, how do people finally get to your room?

It's kind of like with fitness, where it's like, you can't force your person to work out. You can lead by example. You can show them what it's doing for you. Right. So what you're getting out of it, your revelations. So almost like, hey, we should do this together. If your partner doesn't want to do it, it's going to be a waste of time. The person's just going to be in there acting or not wanting to be there, and it's a waste. Both people have to be on the same page. Both people have to want this. And I agree with you. Like, if the person is not willing to go to therapy because of their own whatever, then they're not really contributing to building this relationship. Yeah, because you can't fix it yourself. You're only 50.

It's so hard to explain growth and the work to people who have never done it. Right. It's like we're speaking another language. And it's like, if your car breakdown, you know, you're going to go to the mechanic and you have a toothache, you go to their dentist. Like, problem in the relationship, you go to therapy. So that's why I love having you guys on. People can see it takes work, but.

It can be preventative.

It is preventative.

I love the idea. I've had couples come to me before. There are major issues. And that is so refreshing because they come in saying, I'm committed to this and I want this to work. And I am very aware that relationships are hard and get harder with time. Right. I mean, certain things get harder with time. And so I want to head it off at the pass. And that's been amazing as a therapist, because we get to work with establishing healthy communication, establishing healthy, you know, fighting patterns, and Things like this before, it's gotten to the place where there's so much resentment that you almost can't get underneath it.

I love that advice. I think that people should go, like, it's never too soon to go to therapy, but let's talk about resentments for a minute, because I think you both have said this. I've heard you both say that. I think TikTok you did. John, too, was like, the number one thing that ruins relationships is resentments.

Vanessa uses resentment as a measure of, you got to do something, you know, and so if you're at the point where you're starting to get resentment, you know, it's almost too late. You should be communicating.

Yeah, I Resentment for me, when I teach a lot of groups and classes on codependency recovery, and the way that I talk about it, especially in the beginning of the work, is that resentment is a feeling that all of us know really well. Some people are better at knowing their emotions than others. Some people are better at being able to describe their emotions. But resentment is one that I would bet almost every human knows what it feels like. Right. So if you are in touch with that and you can say, oh, I'm sensing it, and it doesn't have to be overwhelming, but it can be just like the tiniest little whiff of resentment. Usually that means stop, pause, check in. Something's not being spoken that should be spoken. Some kind of conversation has to be had. A need is not getting met. You know, you're not setting a boundary, whatever. The thing is, it can be a really great flag, and it still comes up. It's like, I don't ever get resentment now. Of course I do. It continues to be my flag and my way to check in on my part, because I always talk about resentment is yours. It is yours to own. Nobody can make you feel or hold on to resentment. That's a choice that you make. Once you feel it, it's your responsibility to do something with it by speaking to it and attempting to course correct.

After the break, we'll hear how John and Vanessa work through resentment in their own relationship.

You guys want to give an example of a resentment maybe you work through?

Sure. I mean, well, I was gonna say real quick with resentment, that's lined with blame. And then when people are blaming, there's no ownership, and that's kind of how the plane goes down.

Say that again. That. No, that's a really good point. That resentment is that you're really blaming someone. And then when you're blaming someone, there's no ownership. And that's how the plane goes down. It crashes. The relationship plane. That's true, Major.

If there's no ownership, the plane goes down because people are now just pointing fingers. Of course. Right. So. And this is hard, like, to actually be resentful and then take ownership of that. That's so hard to do, you know? Yes. So an example of resentment with us.

Yeah. That we've worked through. I mean, I tend to be the very codependent one in this relationship. I mean, it takes two to tango. But so for me, resentment is. It's like a best friend. I mean, it's been there my whole life. So I am very familiar with it. I'm not good at communicating my needs. I'm not good at asking for help. I'm not good at setting boundaries, rocking the boat, all the things. And so it's a kind of constant blip, blip, blip, where if I'm not saying to him, hey, this thing that you said hurt my feelings, that's one that's really hard for me. So the rocking the boat is difficult. So for me, if something is said or done or not said or not done, I can go without saying it, but I will shove it down, and I will get resentful. And so there have been moments where it's been, you know, hey, I feel like I'm in this alone, you know, especially having a toddler. A toddler that is in this, like, mommy only phase. Right. Only wants mommy all of the time. It can be very overwhelming. I'm very touched out. I'm very kind of needed out. Right. And when I feel like I'm not getting any kind of help, it's not that I'm telling him, you're not being a good dad or you're not. You're doing this on purpose. Right. I'm saying, like, I need your help. I need more engagement because I'm feeling resentful that it's all on me, and I have to communicate that on my side.

Resentment. Vanessa could burn the house down. I wouldn't be mad at her. There would be no resentment. But if I don't get sex, if I don't feel desired, if she's not flirting, I could sense myself being resentful. Right. And I have to check that, and I have to be empathetic and. And I have to not blame, but be curious where she's at, why, you know, why. Why that's not happening, instead of just saying, because there's an entitlement to wanting sex. Right. There's like, why aren't we having an X amount of days? Or, you know, this is how it was before or whatever. So before I could jump to the resentment, which becomes pebbles in your shoe. Right. I have to try to understand. And this is in the book, Try to understand before trying to be understood. And I think that changes everything.

So once you understand maybe why this sex isn't happening right now, it kind of helps you.

Yeah.

Let go of the resentment. And then, Vanessa, what about for your example here, just to circle it out with the resentment, how do you. When you're feeling this kind of frustration, you know, or just feeling like I want to be seen for all the stuff that's happening within my daughter right now and with your daughter, you know, how do you. How do you soothe yourself in those moments?

Yeah, well, I think that's it. Right. I think John spoke to it and you just did as well. I think a lot of times with this stuff, the first step is saying, what. What about this is mine actually? Like, is there any self soothing that I can do first? Is it easier to point the finger than to say like, actually, you know, he tried to help me earlier and I said, don't worry about it, I got it. Because I thought I could do it better than he could. Okay, well, I could probably.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking. Right. So break that down. Write it out, like whatever people can do. Right.

Yeah. And so going through that process, getting really real with yourself, being brutally honest with yourself about what part you can own. And then what I like to do, and I. Not just personally, but also work with my clients on is this idea of you don't have to go to somebody with everything all figured out, laid out, pretty bow on the package, presenting it to them. I like to give the kind of push to people to go in with it, messy and not all sorted out yet, and actually ask your partner to more witness you in the mess. So if that's the example, it might look like me going to John and saying, you know what? I'm feeling resentful and angry. And I'm not saying it's your fault. I'm just saying that's my truth right now. And I would love if you could actually help me figure this out, because I actually think I need support in deciphering what's going on. Right. So I feel like I could use more support in this. But I also realize that, like, I cut you off earlier. Right. And that that's mine, and it's Messy. And I'm rolling around in. And this is how I feel. And there's something very vulnerable when you actually bring a quote unquote problem or issue to your partner that's not solved yet and ask for their help in solving it. Then coming to them with, here's the problem, here's the solution, here's my part, here's your part.

No, that's a really beautiful way of explaining it, because then you're not blaming them, and you're just like, come with me on this ride. Like, let's figure out what to do next. And it's a problem. That is a we problem. It's a we thing. Not a me and not a blaming thing. It's a really good example.

You know, one thing that I fall into the trap of, and I think many men do, and part of it is locker rooms. Part of it is pornography. Part of it is patriarchy. And it's this idea that the sex is owed instead of it being a shared experience because we are together. She owes me sex, you know, X amount of times a week or because, you know, I'm not working or I'm doing something, then when I come home, I. And deserve. I deserve it. Right. Like, it's. It becomes a punch card, by the.

Way, hearing him verbalize that, which is. I usually talk about this, but to hear him say those words, I just got so hot.

Oh, my God.

Thanks for the chat.

I'm so happy. This is your arousal Runway.

Who knit?

Well, sex with Ellie, maybe people would think that would be an arousal Runway. That's awesome. See, I love this.

But, yeah, it's. It's. And, you know, I think. I think we all fall into the trap of that. And I think there is that part of me. And again, it's so hard to check this, right? Because it's ingrained, it's wiring, it's baked in. If you are excited or you are horny or you want sex, is there entitlement there? Or are you really presenting it as a shared experience? And if it's lined with entitlement, I think you have to check yourself because, again, the. What's the experience going to be like? Right? Because now if you're. If you. If you're entitled to it, she may be doing it for you. Right? And then now enter codependency. But also fake orgasms and. And sex. That is. Yeah. Formative life.

That's such a good point. So, like, almost like talking about is what you're saying is kind of the antidote to the Entitlement is sort of the co creation of it because I think that great sex is like an erotic collaboration. You know, it's sort of like how are we both getting our needs met? So Vanessa feels how whatever that was there, how she fell out, like, let's do that again when we're done. And then, then how do you play on that? Right. And continue to talk because that's. I don't know, sometimes I find myself not in the mood for sex. And then I'll have a great conversation with my partner, we'll work something through. And to me, since I am such a, like, I need the talk and the connection, then I'm like, yeah, then I'm turned on. And then with other kinds of touch, I need, you know, we kind of start to figure out what that it's a formula. Like if you're coming in and everyone's different, everyone's different. But it sounds like you guys are, you know, figuring it out even right here on the show. I love it.

I know.

Well, I thought you guys.

Are you going to send us an invoice?

Yeah. No. I love you guys. I want to ask, I want to see if you could help me answer a question from a listener because we get so many questions. I thought this would be really great when you guys had. Help me with. Okay. This is from Gabby. She's 25 in Charleston, South Carolina. Hey, Dr. Emily. My boyfriend and I have been together for nine months. In most aspects of the relationship. We're extremely happy, fulfilled and vulnerable with each other. We have very open communication and feel safe talking about things. We're having an issue that we seem to not be able to solve. We have very different love languages and this issue seems to cause some extra tension in our relationship. We're both stressed and looking for comfort. My love language is physical touch and when I'm stressed, I seek comfort in hugs and kisses. His is quality time, but that quality time involves some space when he's stressed. He seeks space and time for himself when he's stressed out. But all I want to do is comfort him. We seem to get into a pursuer, distancer cycle. Do you have any advice on how to handle this difference? We both have made it clear we love each other other. I want to be able to talk about this so we both can get what we need from the relationship and feel supported. And I thought this would be great for you guys because I know you guys have kind of maneuvered some similar challenges in your relationship.

This is really relevant because John and I also Very different attachment styles, very different love languages. What I will say about love languages is this, it's important and it's great that they know their own and their partner's language. Right. It's not always going to feel comfortable for you to speak to your partner in their language or respect maybe when they're asking if that language requires like space, for example, to respect that, if that's what they're asking for. Very non romantic, but something I do. So John's is words and mine is acts of service. Words are very hard for me to give. Not writing, not. But when I'm looking you in the eyes and I have to be vulnerable, it's really difficult for me. But I know it's really important for him. And so I actually have a reminder in my phone to go off every couple of days that just says John, words, words. And it's a reminder to me to say, like, have I actually given him these affirmations that I know are so important for him? Because to me, him feeling loved is more important than me feeling uncomfortable around that topic. Right. So I challenge myself to do it and I'm sure I don't do it perfectly and I'm sure he's gotten it better somewhere else, those words. But it's my, it's my best that I can do. Right. And I, and I do my best to give him that.

Emily, this notification thing hasn't gone off in months.

Like she's been snoozing it, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah. I think knowing how your partner prefers to give and receive love is foundational. If you don't know, there's going to be a lot of, oh, this person doesn't love me. But it's not that she or he doesn't love you. You guys don't speak the same language. And then that's where there's compromise. Right. So it's. Relationships aren't about compromise of self. But of course, every relationship is about compromise. Right. So knowing that active service is a big deal for her.

Yeah.

I'll remind myself to do the dishes or pick up dinner or, you know, as she reminds herself. But it doesn't mean that that's all I'm going to speak because I'm not going to change who I am as well. Right. So there's an effort to stretch at the same time, learn and discover your partner's love language, but also hold on to your own because you know, that's true.

And I want to quickly, without going in too much, I think quickly just to touch on what I'm sensing is a little bit of this, like, anxious avoidant dance that they've got going on.

The pursuer distancer.

Yeah. It's not impossible for somebody who swings more anxious and somebody who swings more avoidant to work out. Actually, we're very, very drawn to each other for a reason. Mostly because it does give us an opportunity to heal. Right. And to do that work, it's a mirror. When you tend to be somebody who's more anxious, you need and desire reassurance. I think it's okay for you to let your partner know I respect your desire for space. When you feel like you need space, ask for it. And what I'm asking from you is to also just give me a little bit of reassurance that we're okay, you're okay, I'm okay. You just need this time. On the flip side of that, if you're more of the avoidant who realizes I'm stressed out, I need space. Your obligation to that relationship is to be very clear about that and give a specific amount of time that you need. So I need 12 hours to myself in this, the morning. I'll come back to you. This might again, it doesn't sound sexy, but what I have found with the anxious is that if you give them a specific set time, it changes the way they think about it. Okay, I can do this for 24 hours. I can, I can manage myself. I can try to be more self soothing for 24 hours because that's what they told me they need. If it feels indefinite, the anxious starts to feel a little untethered. And so these are two really simple things I think that you can ask for from your partner and then give to your partner that can at least somewhat subtly soothe that like, distance or pursuer dance. Because it sounds like they've got a really good established communication base. Right. So they can probably do that.

Those are really, really interesting examples. I just love that, that they're like actionable items. You can say, like, when you, when you start to disappear like that, it makes you feel really unsafe. So if you could just let me know what's happening, I just need to understand it. Like, I've had this in relationships where I like, just need to know when I'm gonna see you again. Like, if it's open and I don't know, I'm gonna see you. Like, is it a week from now? Is it a month? It's fine. Just tell me when. Or like, sometimes it's that space that we don't know what to do with. And then we go into a spin. So to be able to put words around it. Yeah, I think they're close. Vanessa, you specialize in codependency, right? And your chapter on codependency is the Giving Tree. I mean, it's kind of a buzzword now. And I think it's still really confusing to many. Even I get confused by it sometimes, and I understand it. How can you identify and correct or work with codependency? I don't think you correct it.

What is codependency?

What is it? What is it? What is it?

Right. You're right. It is a of bunch buzzword. And I think it's in this. Again, this pop psychology. Everybody's a narcissist suddenly. Suddenly everything everybody's doing is gaslighting, right? Like, everyone's running around using these clinical terms. But I actually think that I haven't heard any other psychologist or therapist talk about it in the same way so far. But I'm actually in the camp of really believing we're all codependent. It is the society we're raised in. It is what we're taught to believe that love should look like and feel like. I lose myself and you, right, you're my better half. You complete me. All of these very like. Like, these are codependent ways of existing in relationship. Now, the way that I describe it is really this simple. If you're good, I'm good. If you're not good, I'm not good. That in itself is codependency. So my emotional state is based on somebody else's emotional state. My sense of worth, my sense of value, my sense of self is based outside of myself. Right? And so when you know that that is happening, you can stop yourself and say, there's some codependent behaviors going on here.

Right?

The goal is, first of all, it's a lifelong journey, especially when you're. It's the air you breathe. In the society you're raised, the goal is really to move more towards interdependence. So when we see ourselves in codependent relationships, it's kind of like you were talking about earlier, John, with this, like, you owe me sex. It is very transactional. This is how we go into any relationship, not just love relationships. Right? We are partnered. And therefore, you owe me again, you're my needs meeting machine. You owe me sex. You. You know, this is owed to me somehow. That is not actually an interdependent relationship, which is two sovereign beings that come together and say, you're the Cherry on my Sunday. Right. But you don't complete me. I am already complete. You don't owe me anything because you're not mine to own. Right. These are very radical different ways of looking.

Okay, so I'm gonna go to one. Back to the first thing you said, because I can just hear people. People going, well, wait, like, if my partner's upset, of course I'm going to be impacted by it. So how do we.

Yes. And that's empathy.

Okay?

There's nothing wrong with empathy.

Derail your entire day, your entire life. Your entire life.

When empathy gets tricky is when it starts to look like, I don't know where I end and you begin. And what happens is, with empathy, you can feel empathetic. And I know. I sense when my partner or, like my child especially, is hurting, when it gets sticky or tricky is when I want to soothe you and make you feel better, because I don't like the fact that you're uncomfortable. It's actually not about them. You're anxious that they're upset, and so you want to fix it to make yourself feel better.

I used to think that if I go down, you go down with me, and that's love. I used to think that was sexy. I used to think that was romantic. Right.

We do think in this culture, and.

It wasn't just movies. Maybe part of it is cultural, being Korean. It's all about the. The family and. And there's no individual word about the collective. There's something about that, you know, being on a team that's very, like, bigger than you. It's very romantic. But the flip side of that is, what if you're with someone who's in a depression or who has some kind of personality disorder or something, or an addiction, and then they, you know, without intention, take you hostage, and now you go down with them, and it completely changes your life, too. And that's not healthy. It's not healthy.

Love, it's hard to untangle. Because I love what you said about, like, everyone's dating a narcissist who's gaslighting them in a codependent relationship. Like, you can just kind of. It's all confusing, or there's so many.

Things, and we're all triggered.

We're all triggered by the narcissists that are gaslighting us in our codependent relationship.

We also all have narcissism. Right. This is uncomfortable for a lot of people to hear when I do my classes, but I will say to somebody, I'm going to give you A little trigger warning here, people. The reason why codependents, people who struggle with codependency, love narcissism is because codependency and narcissism are two sides of the same coin. They are both other oriented personality structures. So I find my sense of self outside of myself. Right. Narcissists like to control and the motivation is different. So I'm not saying if you struggle with codependency, you're a horrible person. Right. And, and honestly, most narcissists aren't at their core horrible people either. That came from somewhere that is caused by really severe trauma and wounding. Right. It's actually very, very sad. And I'm not talking about everybody has narcissism. I'm talking about somebody who's got true npd, right? Narcissist personalities were. But they are two sides of the same coin. You have a similar personality structure and so it makes sense that you're going to be drawn to each other because you're seeking external validation, sense of self, sense of worth. Right. Once you as a codependent start to work on that and recover from that and find that sense of self capital S internally, I bet you you'll find you don't have as many narcissists in your sphere. Now that said, a lot of times people who struggle with codependency have narcissistic family structures. So they have a family member who they themselves is narcissistic or has a struggles with an addiction, a substance abuse action. Right. Or themselves mental health issues. I'm not blaming, but I'm saying when a mom or a dad is deep in depression, they're very centered on themselves because they have to be. And it's hard for them to see their child. So that actually can be a narcissistic wounding cue. Codependency.

I just want to reinforce this again so I could too. This is why I'm like it's so helpful just to kind of understand it more. But that thing of the other that the narcissist and codependent, which are also spectrums, I suppose that it's about the other. Like so for the codependent, we need to feel better about ourselves by helping others. That's how we can get filled up. Right. But a narcissist needs someone, others to reflect back to them how great they are or feel their narcissistic supply, if you will. So it's really about we all need other people, but in different ways to help us function in our dysfunction.

Pretty much, yeah. And so the healing, right. I mean, I, I can't speak for the true narcissist because that healing is very difficult and, or sometimes impossible, depending on where they are on the spectrum. But the healing for somebody struggling with codependency is, is really learning to stop self abandoning and really learning to stand in their power and, and start to develop that relationship with their self, capital.

S. Can you talk about the capital S self? Yeah, talk about the capital S self.

Capital S self in the simplest way would be. It integrates all facets of yourself. So capital S self would be my ego, it would be my higher self, it would be my relational self. Right. It is my true north, if you will. It's different than when I talk about yourself, myself, oneself with a lowercase S, which can mean different things. Am I speaking from my ego? Am I speaking from. Again, capital S is kind of like my ultimate goal in this life is to continue to expand upon and be integrated into my capital S. Find what that is.

So like your whole self, your authentic self, your solid self.

I want to talk about the exercise. I was so excited when I saw this in your book because we, a lot of us get caught up on our exes. We can't move past it. We think we made the mistake we have. Should we have sex with our ex? Why do I dream about my ex? And you have this really great exercise, letter to our exes. So can you tell me about that?

Most people either don't talk to or hate their exes. And I think that it's sad if you shared a bed. There were good moments we had. We don't go into things hoping that we're going to hurt each other. We go into it with good intentions. And so I said, let's write a letter to our exes. Let's start first. And so ours are different, but. But basically for me, it was almost an apology letter and appreciating and thanking them for. For the good stuff. Even though the relationships did expire.

Yeah. And there's no intention necessarily of like sending it. You know, I've actually used this with clients and it's not about actually sending to them. And really the purpose of it encompasses the purpose of our book.

Even though, even though we put it in the book. You shouldn't send your letter. We're making ours public, but you shouldn't.

I don't think I have a funny feeling my exes are going to read it. Yeah, it goes back to ownership, which is the entire crux of the book. Right. The book, the letter Is not. And I've done this with clients where they've, they've written it, they've come back, and it's all like, you did this, you did that. I'm like, nope, we're rewriting this. Like, that was not the point of this, this exercise.

Right.

The point of this exercise is to say, like, here's what I can own, here's what my part in this was, you know, here's what I tried to do and maybe didn't do well, and what I failed at, what I could have done better at. I think it can be really helpful to say, here's my part in this and here's. Here's how that owning that part is actually going to change how I show up in my next or my current relationship.

It's really powerful. It really is. Because it is. When people, I guess the opposite of is that when people are like, oh, when you hear like what happened with your ex or your last relationship, they're like, they still have all these resentment. They did this and they did that. Even if they cheated or did something horrible. We all have part. We learn we're in a real. It's a relationship. You're in relation to someone. So I just think it's a great exercise for everyone to look at. If you still have a lot of rage and anger towards your ex.

Like, and that's the thing, you can have rage and anger, but like, to be clear, that's a red flag. If you meet somebody and they're like, they were crazy, they were this, they were that, and there is nothing that they can own, I would say that's a huge red flag because that person probably doesn't have great introspection skills. They don't have a lot of self awareness. They can't really own their part. Good luck having a fight or an argument with that person at some point, which you will in your relationship.

I told. I'm so glad we brought this up because I think that is a huge red flag for me. And I think I didn't. Again, didn't know this, didn't know a lot of this stuff in my 20s. But I would just be like, oh, yeah, of course your ex was crazy, because everyone's ex is crazy, you know. But now I'm like, if someone says it, I'm like, I'm out. Like such great tools in your book really is about ownership and learning. I think we're going to learn a lot in it. So thank you for writing this, being open and vulnerable and sharing it. I thank you both. I'm going to ask you guys the five questions. One, ask all of our guests quickie questions. Okay. Biggest turn on. Be a word.

Oh, biggest turn on.

Yeah.

Oh, do I have to be honest? Biggest turn. Okay.

Being slapped.

No, not being slapped.

Slapping.

Slapping. Oh, yeah, right. Sorry.

Mine.

Waking up with. What's the word? Felicia? Waking up with blowtorch. Them initiating. Yes. It's coming my way. From them, not from me asking.

I guess that's really hard when you have a two year old in your bed, but I. I appreciate that. That's a fantasy.

Okay, Vanessa, your biggest turn on.

Biggest turn on. Feeling seen. Like, truly seen.

I knew my answer was going to sound shallow.

I love that you are so. You are so unabashedly. You and real. And what. What person doesn't want to wake up with a blow job? Right? Okay. Biggest turnoff.

Somebody not able to take responsibility. Like the flame game.

I would say defensiveness. Or what's the opposite of self awareness? Not being aware of self behavior.

Agreed.

What makes good sex presence?

Being in the here and now.

Oh, that's a good answer. Can I say that too?

No, you can't.

I'm just making it up. Yeah.

We're two different people. You're your own person.

Stop being codependent. I'm gonna say I'm gonna.

Okay. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

Stop faking it. Like, make yourself happy. Right? You can't make anybody else do anything they don't want to do. You can't convince somebody to love you. You can't prove your worth through doing and being for somebody else. Like, just prioritize yourself and the people who love you will surface and they will love you anyway.

For me, it was. It's continually to redefine, right? So shedding old residue from society, from locker rooms, for. From. From pornography, whatever, that you've learned the environments you've been in. And always trying to redefine what good sex looks like for you.

Being open.

All right, here's our fifth question. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

Doesn't look anything like it does in the movies.

I'm speaking as a woman here. But the number of sex scenes where the man just climbs on top of her, thrust twice, and she's like. It's like, come on. Are we really still making movies like this? Because we are. It doesn't look anything like. It doesn't. And also, it's okay to laugh. That's another one. It's okay to laugh and like, kind of be silly sometimes when you're having sex. I took two.

I would say the number one thing that people should know about sex is that it's not dried cement. That it is a living, breathing thing. That it is a dance. It's a constant. It's always expansive. Right. So it's not a photograph or a poster.

Yep.

It's something created. It's energy, you know, so it's dynamic. It's formless.

Yeah, I love that.

Good job. Love it. Okay, so tell me, where can people find you? What should we know? John Kim. Vanessa Bennett.

I'm across the board at the Angry Therapist on social media.

I'm a little all over the place, but mostly Instagram and TikTok. So Instagram I'm at Vanessa Sbennett, TikTok. I'm actually the Coda Yoda.

And then, yeah, our book is wide. Anywhere you would get books. Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble.

Congratulations. It's a really helpful tool thing for anyone who reads this. So thank you for doing it.

That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily and be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter or X and Facebook. It's all Sex with Emily. Oh, and I've been told I give really good email. So sign up on sex with emily.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. And if you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating or relationships, call my hotline 55-9-TALK SEX. That's 559-825-5739. Or just go to sex with emily.com askemily. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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