https://www.listennotes.com/e/8131c68c5f184750b556ffaa20e4f89d

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Use code EMILY. was so interesting to me, this always sticks out to me, is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York, it was John Hamm, right? And he had all these like lovers and he was like cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating except one day a phone bill came in. Like remember you used to get the printed phone bills and it would be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't her. So she's like, you were cheating on me. Have you ever been cheated on? Ever thought about cheating yourself? Or maybe you're just wondering, what even counts as cheating? Is it sex? Is it flirting? Is it DMing your ex at 2 a.m. with a just thinking about you text? Well, if you haven't talked about it with your partner, don't worry, you are so not alone. And I'll be honest, I'm a reform cheater, and in this episode, we're diving into the messy, murky waters of infidelity. what it means in 2025, how to prevent it, and how to come back from it if it happens. Spoiler, the definition of cheating is not one size fits all. For some, it's sex. For others, it's like in a thirst trap. By the end of this episode, you're going to learn how to define cheating in your relationship before assumptions turn into accusations. So we're going to cover why just feeling it out isn't enough, the exact questions to ask your partner about boundaries, What to do with those fantasies you're afraid to say out loud? Hint, they might actually unlock deeper intimacy. And how to stop letting jealousy wreck you and instead use it as a window into your desires. We'll also talk tech and temptation, work DMs, late nights like digital flings, and what real repair looks like if betrayal has happened in a relationship. This episode is packed with real talk, actionable tools, and even AI scripts to help you define your values, set clear boundaries, and build trust that actually lasts. Whether you're trying to prevent cheating, recover from it, or just stay ahead of the chaos, this is a conversation you don't want to miss. So let's get into it. My co-host today is Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a dear friend and a licensed holistic psychologist. He's a body-based trauma expert and author of Addicted to Drama. He's helped over a million people worldwide break free from stress, trauma, and drama through his signature Somatic Somatic approach. Scott is the founder of the Embodi Lab, the go-to platform for learning body-based trauma therapies and the creator of Somatic Stress Release taught in over 20 countries. You want to go deeper? Use code sexwithemily for a discount on any Embodi Lab program at theembodilab.com you are going to love it. Let's talk about cheating today, because there are so much information coming in. There's DMs, there's questions, there's emails like, is this cheating? Have I been cheated on? There's so many different ways to cheat now. What constitutes cheating? A DM? A flirty little look across the room? Could it be porn watching? People think that's cheating. I got so many emails. I wanna help the people. Let's read an email. Okay. So here's some things that have come in just to give you the overview. Okay. Number one, I'm living in the misery of a sexless marriage. So to meet my sexual needs, I have to masturbate. My problem with it is the porn it requires. Is there another way? So let me explain this to you. This is a guy from a guy named Keith. First, let's just cover the porn thing. In many, many relationships, porn is considered cheating. So it sounds to me like in Keith's relationship, he feels guilty about using porn. So just so you know, in a lot of heterosexual relationships, this is one of the huge hot button issues. Couples never talk about it. They make assumptions that when we get married, well, my partner would never watch porn again because they've got me. Why else would they need it? They don't understand that porn is actually a healthy part of sexual expression. And I always tell couples, listen, your partner's gonna be watching it when you get together, they're gonna be watching it when you're together, they're gonna watch it when you're not together, because it's actually.

Could be something that's completely separate than the relationship. Well, I think, I mean, I have a bigger question. No. Like, what do you, what constitutes cheating? Like, what is the definition of cheating?

That is it, right? There's so many things that couples do not discuss when they get married or commit. and I think this should be one of them. There's gotta be a forum that's like, do you think, if I watch porn, is that cheating? If I take a weekend with friends, is that cheating? If I like someone's photo on Instagram, is that cheating? If I dance with someone at a bar, you're not there, is that cheating?

So it's like, cheating is actually kind of subjective. There's no universal definition. What do you think cheating is, Em?

I think that objectively, most people would say if you're in a committed relationship where you haven't discussed boundaries and you haven't discussed what is, I don't know, off that if you exchange bodily fluids with somebody, have an orgasm with someone else, make out with somebody else, that that's probably cheating. For some people, then there's the whole emotional cheating. You've talked to this person every day at work, you've shared everything about our life. Like if I'm married to someone, you're like, oh, but your office wife has become your new, you know, confidante, that that could be cheating too. So there's all these different ways to define it. But I think the standard definition is like, you bang someone else. Yeah. And you were together and that was a violation. But now since social media and there's all these different ways to connect to people, you know what I always think about, did you ever watch Mad Men? No. Okay. So I barely got through it, but it was an amazing show, came out, whatever, you know what it is.

Yeah, yeah.

20, came out 10 years ago. But what's so interesting to me, this always sticks out to me, is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York, it was Jon Hamm, right? And he had all these like lovers and he was like cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating, except one day a phone bill came in. Like remember you used to get the printed phone bills and it would be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't her. So she's like, you were cheating on me. And I'm guessing like cheating's been around, like that was like in the sixties or the fifties that show. I'm guessing people have been cheating for, I don't know why I always think about that. Cause I'm like, that was so simple. That was like one bill that pointed to the cheating. But now it's like you could find it out on Instagram. You're following your partner's location. Someone saw you at the bar. They like let your partner know. Like there's a million ways to get caught now with cheating. But then it also comes down to most couples don't even discuss, like I'm fine if my partner watches porn. But again, for so many it is cheating. So I think that when couples decide that they're gonna commit for the rest of their lives together, they've discussed like, Among other things, is this cheating? Would it be cheating to you if I masturbate and think about somebody else? Yeah.

Is it cheating if it, yeah. And it's gonna bring up tension. I think that's like we have to normalize that a lot because if I said to you, we just started a relationship and one of the first questions I ask you out of like we're rolling out of bed, we're getting our coffee and I'm like, hey, M, what's cheating mean to you? Like the first thought most people have is why are they asking me this and are they going to cheat on me? which is, you know, that negative bias in their brain going, oh shit. You know, that's probably, for many people, that's a big fear. For me, it's a huge fear in a relationship.

We got to flip with that into like, what are the boundaries? Like what is our, it's more like, I love the way you're saying that, because to start off with what's cheating will be, that will not go anywhere helpful. But maybe it's more like, what are our values around intimacy? Yeah. Are we only sleeping with each other? Yeah. Let's make an assumption that I'm not gonna sleep with anybody else, that you're not gonna sleep with anybody else, but in that category should be like, what about porn? What about texting somebody else of another gender? I think there's just, and then as it comes along, couples need to keep revisiting these conversations.

I really like this because when you're navigating polyamory, when you're navigating multiple partners and you're establishing the rules, That is where you have typically been like having the conversation about what is cheating.

Yeah.

Where like, hey, this like, yes, you can go sleep with someone, but you can't make out with someone on the dance floor, you know, or like no kissing or no second dates, whatever it is in that navigation. But I love this because so rarely in more monogamous situations because it's subjective. It actually is subjective.

It is nuanced for sure.

And I know if you're listening, you're like, no, it's not subjective. It's really clear what is cheating. It's actually not. It is for you and that's what's important. And now you need to communicate and express that to the person you're with.

I want every couple to have this conversation. I think they can learn from people in open relationships or in polyamorous relationships. pro. I know people are like, oh, that doesn't work or that's crazy. I'm not saying that you need to be in it, but the, but the protocols that people in open relationships go through are like, oh, okay, well, when we're at play parties, we get to hook up with someone else. There will be no kissing. There will be, like, you set up the boundaries and the rules, and then you get to adjust them as you, as you go along. But, but the problem is, is that most relationships, they're like, we're together. We're monogamous till death do us part. Nothing else will ever happen. I will never be attracted to anybody else again, nor will you.

There won't be any ambiguity. And I'm also to make assumptions that.

You actually are going to stop your porn watching.

And I think part of this lack of communication is what leads to the highest statistics on cheating.

Yes.

Right? It's not the only reason. We'll talk about the reasons as to why cheating often happens, but the lack of communication, the lack of even the conversation is already starting to hide things. Because we all have, like as humans, we all have fantasies. We all have thoughts and that, yes, this is about do we action them? How far can we action them? Do we even express the fantasies when it's not about our partner to our partner? All of those are really important to discuss, but as humans, if we just shame the fact that we and hide, that leads to less communication and more opportunity to have bigger ruptures.

I mean, there's just so much nuance that this should all be discussed.

Couples don't wanna have these conversations. What if we were to have the conversation now like we were a couple? Let's do it. Okay, so we're having our morning coffee and our sex with Emily mugs, which makes the coffee so much spicier. And I say to you like, Hey, Em, we haven't had this conversation yet, but I really wanna talk about an aspect of our intimacy.

Yes.

And I love that line, by the way, and I'm gonna repeat it here, which is, you know, my monogamy may not be your monogamy, and I really want to align about where that is for us. Like, what might feel like a rupture for you? I don't even have to say cheating, but what might feel like a rupture?

I always want to say cheating is like a buzzy, but I feel it's more like our beliefs and values around my. If we're monogamous.

Yeah.

What are our beliefs and values around it? And then, yeah, we could decide. Yeah. What? what is, we both believe it and then what might be seen as cheating, right?

So what are your, yeah, I love that. What are your beliefs and values?

I believe that if we're monogamous, I would guess that we are only sleeping with each other, that we're using protection. If you don't know, that's, I guess if we're open, like obviously we're only sleeping with each other. Like I also understand that sometimes Relationships and attraction can meander over time and fade and things twist and turn. And I would want us always to have an open dialogue about should something happen or should there be some fantasy that comes up for you or there's something that you're like, oh, I think it'd be kind of hot to have a threesome. Or like, I would want to know. Like, I know right now in our relationship, we're in a really good place where our sex is really great. It's really exciting.

But.

But I would want to know, like, If you are attracted to someone outside the relationship, how might we handle it? Do you think that fantasizing is a form of cheating?

This is really interesting because we, you know, from a neuroscience perspective, we innately daydream, right? We daydream and even dreaming. It's like, I remember a couple I worked with and he had expressed to her that he had a dream about sleeping with someone. And we might go, Amazing communication. Thank you for communicating. And for her, she said, you, cheated on me. And she couldn't let it go. And she even said to me, she was like, I know this is crazy. I know this is ridiculous, but I can't get over the sense that he was dreaming about someone else besides me. And we, you know, like we broke down some of the neuroscience of where dreams come from and what that might mean and there's symbolism there and other things like that.

Damn. That's a really big one though. That is so common. We can't help it if we have dreams about somebody else. People sleep up, have dreams about sleeping with their ex all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean they want to sleep with their ex or they have fantasies about someone else. But this is the tricky part. This is where in a relationship we have to say, do you want to hear that information rather than just offering that?

Well, and we can't necessarily take it at face value if there's a fantasy or a dream. So if you said to me, Hey, I just had this sort of fantasy about the other cameraman. And I- that's so cute. Cute, super cute cameraman today. And I said to you, okay, thank you for letting me know that. What's happening in you?

Like, oh, you're- I just feel better that I shared. See, to me this stuff should be out in the open. Yeah. I would love you just to be able to hear that and accept me and not feel like, well, look, obviously we're firing that cameraman.

Yeah, but I think what's important here is, Yes, you know, shame dies when we have a safe place to share our stories, right? And that's an important aspect because shame shuts us down relationally. And more importantly is like, I'm really interested in if it wasn't just about the cameraman, what's present for you? Oh, part of the fantasy is I'm feeling more aroused today or maybe I'm feeling a little lonely. Maybe there's something underneath the fantasy that we can connect about.

Yeah, there's something more to that about me feeling like, oh, if I'm only committing to you, then it feels like it's shutting off this part of me where I get a lot of internal validation. I love validation from men. So I would love to feel like, oh, there could be something there, like the possibility of something new and sparky, even though I don't necessarily want to have sex with him, I just like to have that. Is that something that I could still have in the boundaries of our relationship?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Hey Emily, I've been a long time listener. I thought things were doing pretty well in my marriage. Up until recently, my husband told me that he fantasizes about one of my friends and has been basically our entire relationship. He does it sometimes too to get off while he's having sex with me and it's thrown me for a loop and made me feel pretty insecure.

Yeah, it would feel pretty insecure too.

To me it feels like a betrayal and almost like cheating because he's doing it to get off inside of me. When I should be the one arousing him, how do I even go about handling this? What are your thoughts on this? Where'd I go from here? Look forward to hearing from you. I get that he was trying to be really honest probably in some way. But how is she ever gonna recover from the fact that every time her husband's having sex with her, he's thinking about her friend to get off and get a arouse? Like, that's a rupture, then I don't know how we're gonna repair that one. So to me, they didn't do the under ground, like you have to say, is it okay if I share with you my, how do you feel about me fantasizing? Do you wanna know about it? He didn't clear any of that. And so now they're in more trouble. That just felt like I wanted to cover that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's like, it gets really tricky. If you find yourself projecting someone else's face onto your partner and someone else's body onto your partner, like you can't be with your partner, then I think that's an important pause point, you know, to go, Whoa, maybe this isn't the match that I want. Or maybe I need to do some self-reflection or maybe I need to do some work. Or maybe, you know, oftentimes we can get stuck in fantasy as a way to avoid intimacy.

Yes. Well, that's right. Disassociation.

Disassociate, disconnection, projecting someone else's face. It's like what's happening under the hood of that fantasy and projection? That's the material that we need to be talking about, connecting about. Not, Hey, I'm fantasizing about your best friend while I'm having sex with you. Where do we go from there? We can't. But hey, I did some self-reflection work and I realized I'm disconnecting a little bit while we're intimate or I felt rejected lately from you and have been putting someone else's face, you know, like whatever it is.

It felt safer to do that rather than to connect with you intimately. So there's, and we're just talking about more of like the psychology we're not even getting into like, My partner had an affair. Yeah. So should we get into some of those stats too? Let's get into that. Because we're talking about the nuance, but then there's the full on, like, my partner slept with someone else and didn't tell me. And that happens. Okay, so there's some juicy infidelity stats. The prevalence, it says about 20 to 25% of married people admit to having cheated on their spouse at some point. And then around 40% of unmarried people report having been cheating on by a romantic partner. Then we got into the gender gap is shrinking. I just found this was interesting and then we can break this down that historically men reported higher rates of cheating but the gap is closing. Women under 30 are now just as likely as men to cheat. So this is all the people that are gonna report. It might be higher. But what do you think about that? They admit to having cheated. When I hear cheating, I'm feeling it's a physical cheating.

Yeah, most likely it's a physical cheating. And most likely they're talking about kind of an extreme, so sex.

Yes.

And, you know, not to make people more paranoid, but what is the actual self-reporting rate? You know what I mean? Like that saying 20 and 25% are report yes, doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of other people that are not reporting or will lie even on in a study. Yeah.

And if you're half, it could be double that number.

It could be double that number. And if you're listening and you're like, oh my gosh, that makes me really scared about intimacy, you're in the right place. It's fair. This is why communication and conversation needs to be happening around this subject matter with partners, and not in just a threatening way.

Well, I feel like couples who really are able to talk about all the things that are surrounding cheating and why people cheat, and get ahead of it and troubleshoot it, and be like, I, like, let's talk about all the, let's make promises to each other that we're gonna have frequent check-ins about our relationships, that is in our sex life, and we ever find that we're not having sex and we're not meeting each other's needs, like, let's talk about before the cheating happens. And I think that's what happens, that couples don't really have the basis. So they're like, I'm feeling unseen, I'm feeling like my partner isn't prioritizing me, I'm feeling lonely in the relationship. I mean, there's so many reasons why people cheat and they say some of the top reasons are feeling emotionally neglected or lonely, they want variety, seeking validation or self-esteem boost, revenge, falling out of love, sexual dissatisfaction. So there's a lot of different reasons for it and I would like to just make a confession here.

Okay.

That I am a reformed cheater. I used to be a cheater.

What do you mean by that?

I mean that in my 20s and early 30s, I was in relationships for probably two. I was like a serial monogamist. And I also had a job where I was traveling a lot internationally, and I would, like, have these fun, like, I'd meet some guy in an airplane or be in Thailand and some beautiful hotel and. And it was like, it felt just like a fun little romp, a fun little experience that was very, very exciting. And it wasn't necessarily for me because I was missing anything in my relationship. It was more like, it was never like in the same city. Like, I mean, trying to be like, my cheating wasn't as bad because I was not on US soil. I was, I was, I was in Asia, but...

I mean, this is not uncommon. Just a moment ago, the creativity that people have to justify the action as a way of avoiding their own shame or the pain they caused, or to even address the underlying patterns, is rich in creativity. I've heard some wild ones. But I like this one. You know, I wasn't on US soil, so it wasn't quite cheating.

But that's what I'm telling you, and it sounds really fucked up, and it says, people in happy relationships relationships still cheat. In fact, 34% of those who admitted cheating reported feeling happy and very happy with their partner. So for me, it was like I was young, I had all these, I don't even know if I told you this, I do these international trade missions with legislators, and I would travel and stay in these beautiful hotels, and I would meet just really interesting people, and we'd be drinking, it'd be like a one night thing, and I'd be like, I don't know if I'm gonna see them again, but it was like the excitement, the build up. And so, yes, I had a partner back in, you know, wherever I was living, San Francisco at the time, And I just sort of felt like it felt so far away. And it was almost like, I went to the opera this night. It was like an experience I had. I went to a play and I happened to have sex with somebody in another country. But what I decided is that doesn't feel great to me either. So I decided that I was going to never do that again. I never wanted to be a cheater. And so I started to talk to my partners about that. In my most recent relationships, I full-on say, I've been, I've not been faithful in the past and I never want this to happen again. So it's really important to me that I, we have boundaries around it and we talk about it. And in my most recent relationship, we were like, and he was much more open too, and he was like, great, if you, something happens, you're gonna, like, let me know. Let me know ahead of time. Yeah. If it's about to happen. Now that's tricky with the time difference. If I'm like, hey, there's this really hot guy and I really wanna sleep with him. But like, we were so much more open to it that, I don't know, that's not gonna be everyone's partner, but, and then I'm actually waiting, way less interested in now, too. But I had a lot of guilt around that because I just knew that somehow it wasn't right and I had so much opportunity. And anyway, that's me. Have you been cheated on?

Yeah, I've definitely been cheated on. I've never cheated to my knowledge.

Okay.

To my subjective knowledge. But yeah, no, I've definitely been cheated on. And, you know, it. It's. I remember, like, just overriding it in myself. I mean, like, about. 55 to 70% of couples try to work it out, right? And I remember going, It's okay, we can work this out. This really hurt me. But, you know, and every time I tried to even talk about it, I got blamed for it.

You got blamed for their cheating?

I got blamed for the cheating, yeah. Not even like valid excuses in my book of like, Hey, you've been neglectful of my needs. It was just like, yeah, I didn't like the way you said something, so I wouldn't cheated. You know, like just shitty behavior. And I had gotten to a point where I was like, okay, if we just communicate it, all I care about is a communication. Like, if you have to go do this, talk to me about it. And that that wasn't a possibility. But also, you know, the rules kept changing.

They kept changing the rules.

They kept changing, yeah, the rules of like, okay, I can sleep with people, these three people who I've had, you know, these sort of fantasy relationships with in the past.

Like it almost doesn't count because I've.

Already been with them. It does, yeah. Like that was their rule. And I was like, okay. And at the time I was just trying to be the cool boyfriend. Right. Like and just be like, yeah, I'm cool with anything. I'm the coolest. It really hurts.

And.

Yeah, and in the end they kept changing it. Like they would make out with someone on a dance floor and I was like, Hey, that wasn't in our rule set. And then they would get mad at me for calling them out. Those are red flags.

Those are red flags.

If you cannot communicate and someone gets utterly defensive, that's a no-go. But there's also something that's interesting I'm going to ask you back this is I didn't see any empathy for the pain it caused me either. And this is not uncommon for individuals, although like 70-something percent of people actually admit to feeling regret after cheating.

The rest- Most people do, yeah.

Yeah, most people do.

But your partner, you didn't feel any, they turned it on you, they kind of gaslit you or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And that's not in the sphere of being able to repair it. Like, we'll talk about repair, but like, when there's no regret, when there's no compassion or empathy of how that affects the other person, there's no, that's not a foundation to which you can heal and repair.

Yeah, especially because if they're not feeling empathy for you there, how are they feeling empathy for you in other parts of the relationship? And that's like really, really hurtful, but I think also this brings back to.

Like- Did you feel regret?

I, honestly, I never got caught, it never came up again. So I was like, I felt like I was able to compartmentalize it, but I did feel a little bit bad because I was like, God, I was also backpacking for a year through Southeast Asia. My boyfriend was in San Francisco at the time, so I felt like I had this sort of free range to do what I wanted, but yeah, no, I did. I felt like a little bit, but then I actually told him.

Yeah.

And he was fine because it turned out he was sleeping with half of his office and we were all fine. We were in our twenties, it was all fine. But I feel like the nuance here and what for actually for the moderate age of dating with like social media and people being out there and like meeting so many different types of people. Like I think monogamy is a huge struggle for people, but so are open relationships. And it's not for everybody. Some people are like, I could never do that. But then there's a lot of people who are like, like I'm kind of, I'm down with it. So I just think I would love to invite people. to have really honest conversations with themselves and their partners about how they actually feel about some playing, like some going to a play party every once in a while. I know a lot of couples who are like, no, we are completely monogamous except for when we go to a play party. And then we're allowed to make out or allowed to have sex with somebody else when my partner is there. There's all these different ways that couples cheat or get their needs met. It's what Not when it's, you know, cheating is like, what it's like the true infidelity and you're not actually sharing it and you're doing it behind someone's back. But I think for some people, like I actually have thought that maybe I'm just not really someone who is preternaturally monogamous. Like I've never felt that I am monogamous in my soul. Yeah. Like in my, I think I've always been a little bit more flex.

And this is a really interesting piece in psychology, especially on polyamory. I know a good friend of mine, Jessica Fern, who wrote the book Poly Secure.

Oh, yeah.

And we've had a lot of conversations about this, which is, am I an individual who's just not constructed made for polyamory, excuse me, monogamy? If I'm not a person made for monogamy, or is this a manifestation of my insecure attachment style?

Mm, say more.

Like, you know, when we have a, let's say, avoidant attachment style, where we like withhold, we have trouble being in relation to other people. We feel overwhelmed by them. And that stems from as infants oftentimes caregivers that are too overwhelming to our nervous system. So we grow up and that carries forward with us. And then we feel like, yeah, I don't really like I don't trust people. I don't find that relationships make my life better or whatever the belief system is, or the reflex of just going, when people get too close, I get overwhelmed, and then I push people away, or I escape.

Yeah.

And that can lead to less intimate one-on-one encounters and more of a desire to jump between people. Yeah. It's tricky.

It's so fucking tricky. It's like, Yeah, it's just tricky. This is the kind of stuff why it's so important to be aware of your attachment styles and your upbringing and that not everybody's gonna be on the same page with you. I feel like when you're finding a partner, we have to be honest about this stuff. Even if we think we have a proclivity towards maybe being more open, I think a lot of us don't really want to talk about that because we're afraid we're gonna push them away. But how much better to be really honest about it in the jump. So you're not, You know, I had.

A great conversation with someone the other day about this. I went on a few dates with them and they were really clear. They're like, I love and only do monogamy. And I was like, Cool, what's your definition of monogamy? So it actually came up and he was like, it means that there's no one else in the picture, no one else we're sleeping with. And I said, oh, interesting, because for some couples monogamy is includes three Sims as long as you're together.

Yes, yep.

Right? And I said, I don't mind that. And for him, he was like, no, no, no, that's not monogamy. That's not okay.

In his definition. Yeah.

And then he called me the next day and he was like, Look, I don't think we can date if that's what you like. And I said, well, I think let's pause and I want to recognize you're having a response. that's important for me to hear, which is, do you feel scared? Do you feel nervous? Do you feel like I might do something that might abandon you? He was like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's true for me. And I was like, well, let's have this honest conversation because I might get the opportunity to say, I like you enough that I want to really make sure that you feel safe and secure. And threesomes aren't that important to me. But if you just make the assumption based on your reflexive trigger, we're not going anywhere.

Yeah, no, that's great to kind of break it break down the Nuance of it. He was just like, because maybe if you guys did build a foundation where you felt really secure, then maybe the threesome would be open. It was. It's also triggering. We don't really know what it means. And so you can just, like, shut down from that for sure. Like, I had a boyfriend once who was like, I actually think it was a fetish and not even just a fantasy. His fetish around threesomes, meaning that every time he. We would have sex or he would masturbate, he had to think about a threesome to get off. Oh, like, he'd be like, right now I'm picturing, like, another woman going down, and you're like, that was his thing. So to me, that's this if it's a requirement for arousal. Yes. And I was like, and early on I was like, okay, I can roll play this ship. Then eventually he was like, Are we gonna have a threesome? We're gonna have a threesome. And I was like, we haven't been together that long. I don't really want to. And then we kind of like had to end it was like, that was all he was focused on. It was like somehow he easily got wired to that and that was like too much. But maybe, yeah. So I think that there's just so many different ways that this plays out. And what I love about this conversation is like we all, I wish, and maybe we could create this like some kind of form, maybe we could do it as my Smart S*X membership. my community that people could have another form, kind of like the yes, no, maybe they could download this series of questions that you ask someone in a new relationship. I mean, I know we don't want to have these questions because early on it's amazing, I can't imagine sleeping with anyone else. You're my everything. But guess what? Reality checks in, the honeymoon phase dies, you're gonna have arousal or attraction to somebody else. So how do you start to answer these questions? Honestly, an opening you know, because a lot of times cheating isn't always about like a dissatisfaction with the person. It's sometimes it's about looking for like connection or looking for like a lost part of ourself that we might feel with a new partner that this partner can't really give to us. It's not about a whole relationship. It's just like sometimes sex is just about connection and intimacy, but it's like, oh, this person made me feel a certain way and I wanna do this like, one-off experience with them. But I don't know, I just think that we have such a tight rein around sex where sometimes we're just trying to, I don't know, I think that we're just trying to fill, it's really hard when we want one partner to fill multiple roles in our life as our best friend and our lover, very Esther Perel style, but like, you shoot my best friend, my lover, my confidant, my plus one, my emergency contact, and the only person I wanna fuck for the rest of my life. Like that's a lot of pressure on someone. So to say, like, maybe we go to a play party. Like, I know a lot of couples who are like, Four times a year we go to a play party. When I mean play party, it's usually like an invite only where couples go and they like swing and they do something and like that satisfies their needs. Or maybe they spend a week apart where they do whatever they want. And, you know, so I just think I want to give, I just want to paint a picture. Like there's a lot of, if cheating is a problem in your relationship, it's like your biggest fear, there might be a way to sort of Break it down in a way that could work for you. Does that all tracking?

And I think there's a few other things like micro-cheating, which I think is really interesting, especially in social media. If I'm hurting all your photos, Em, and I'm with someone else, am I micro-cheating? If the intention is about attention and this way, that might fall under the category of emotional cheating.

Let's talk about that. I'm telling you, it says that social media site is the starting point for over 20% of affairs today. Really? I hear from people all the time, they're like, I told my partner to stop liking all these bikini photos of this woman and he will not stop. He's doing it every day and it feels awful to me and he won't stop. So to me, yeah, I get why that is cheating adjacent because you just feel violated. And I would say to them, tell your partner, it doesn't make me feel great and secure in our relationship when you're doing that, but somebody just can't stop. it says it's responsible. They call it like micro-cheating, flirting, DMing, private texting. That's reported by 45 to 50% of people as problematic, even if it's not technically cheating. So I think that that's like, I don't know, if I told someone that if I was with a partner and I was like, babe, it doesn't make me feel good, I would want them to be like, done. Like, I will never, I'm, I will not do that anymore. Like, what is it? 'Cause what, why are they doing it? What is it giving them if it's hurting me?

And the counter argument often is, well, that feels too limiting or you're, you're, you know, why are you trying to control me? Which is, you know, an interesting point too. And it's like if, and I had this with some patients recently where that was the case. She was like, I hate that he's sitting next to me in bed on Instagram liking other girls' photos. And one of the questions I asked is, is he liking anyone else's photos? She was like, yeah, he likes these photos on rabbits. He's really into rabbits. And I was like, do you think he's having an affair with the rabbit? And I'm not trying to be snarky. No, I get it. But I'm trying, you know, this is the thing. It's like when it's our fear, when it's our own trigger, we might, we do, we narrow our perception and our focus onto the thing we are most scared about. So I am blocking out all the other things that might also be here in the present moment. I'm blocking out all the rabbits he's harding. I'm blocking out all the males he's harding on, like his friends. And it's like, and who are these women? And she was like, oh, these women are his friends. And I was like, okay, so. I want to address this doesn't make you feel great. That's important. Let's all sit with that and let's break it down. And if we break it down and it still feels like this is a no-go, then that's a negotiation between you and your partner, which is different than, and this is where it gets tricky. It's like, is that different than just full-on cheating?

I'm just glad that they're, talking about it.

Yeah, because what's funky is when we, you know, well, it's a high statistic of couples that try to save their marriage or try to save their relationships, but only about 15% of them make it.

Yeah, let's talk about that. After how to help couples heal from the cheating.

Oh, yeah.

Do you want to get into that? Like, it says, like, they say, like, stop, you know, we talk about, like, stop the affair completely. Stop that shit. Whatever it you want to stop it and say, like, okay, I'm back to, like, working and rebuilding our trust and our relationship.

So you.

And you need total transparency, acknowledge the pain. You need your partner to be like, I'm really sorry that I, like, sounds like you didn't have that.

Yeah.

You didn't have a partner who was like, oh, my God, that must have been really, really hard for you. Yeah. That you had to go through that. Yeah. The betrayed partner needs to express their feelings of, like, rage and grief and confusion and all the things, and that partner kind has to take it, right? And listen and listen. And then you got to open the conversation beyond the facts. Sometimes couples focus on like, what happened? I want the details. Did you go down on them? Were you naked? Did you take foot, whatever? But really it's like, what? What do you think about that?

Yes. I say once.

One time.

One time only. And anything after that, you're starting to attach to the details and not to the most important piece, which is the rupture in the relationship and what's happening in you and what's happening in your partner.

Yeah.

If we get too attached to the details to the story, we are just cycling in a trauma vortex.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Like the, the, like, then you can't get those images out of your head. So it's more like, what did the Affair mean to you? Like, what was missing? What were you logging for? What was going on? in your head, like getting that, those kind of questions, right? Like what is happening in our relationship, not just between you and the affair partner, but like what's really happening with us? Yeah. And then you gotta eventually shift from the blame to the curiosity. Like what does this mean for us? Do you think we can rebuild? Like what is this, what is this messaging us about our relationship? Where do we need to go? Like what is it revealed? What do we need moving forward? And then you gotta rebuild trust. Now this is where I think a lot of couples fall, like it's really fucking hard to rebuild trust. You don't just go to therapy once, like when trust is broken, it is such a that like a lot of couples can never repair it. So you really just can't like, I don't know. I mean sometimes people have like, I'm gonna share you all my passwords, you're gonna get, you're gonna be able to see everything. Like you're gonna follow my location.

That will work temporarily, but that's not actually how we rebuild trust.

It's just time, it's what it's, time.

Can be helpful, but a lot of things can happen in that time that don't rebuild the trust. so it's actual work. It's, Hey, M, I know we had this big rupture. You, you know, you slept with someone else. Yesterday I had this moment where I had a little flashback and I felt really alone. And I texted you and I didn't hear back in an hour and I got really anxious. And there's this ownership in that and the partners job in that moment is just reflect back. You got really anxious when they didn't text you back for the hour. And it really brought up some old feelings and some imagery from the past. And how can I be with you in this moment to support and love you and really reflect back that I'm here with you, I'm committed.

So that's really beautiful. So part of that would be like, okay, I hear that you got triggered when you so now maybe a resolve to that would be like, so I promise that I will text so from now on, I make the best effort to text you right back when you text me, right? To make it feel.

Because simply you giving me your location and I start checking it actually induces more anxiety and dopamine. So every time I check the phone as to where you are because I think you're cheating on me, I get a little dopamine hit. And that makes it pretty confusing because all of a sudden I'm becoming attached to the process of anytime I'm anxious, it's a so, and feeling a little better, it's associated with the paranoia and mistrust I have. That is so true.

I'm just remembering now when my boyfriend cheated on me in my 20s. Oh, you have been cheated on? I have been cheated on. I just remember this. Well, I, yes. The same guy you cheated on?

Yes, he cheated on me, but it was a long story.

Okay. I was traveling and then I came back and he's like, oh my God, I didn't, I was with nobody, but it turned out He literally slept with everyone in the city. So then I said, including his massage therapist, but at the time there was like answering machines and I got the code to his answering machine. So I would obsessively call and listen to his answering machine and the messages. And that was like, every time I went to his house, I was digging for paper. I was looking for evidence, looking for evidence. And I became like this crazy, like I became neurotically obsessed with like, if he was like a minute late, like he's like, I'm going to the drugstore to get something. And he was like two minutes late. I'm like, clearly he's fallen in love with the cashier. Like, I would create crazy stories in my head.

Yeah.

So I get exactly what you're saying. It made me someone who got very jealous and insecure because I didn't trust him.

Yeah, it's a hard one to break. It's really, really hard. And I will say, like, I've been on that same loop when I've been cheated on, and I would, like, check where their phone is. I'm like, oh, they haven't moved in an hour. Are they. Are they really, you know, when they say they're out with, you know, and And that's a point where I recognized, and it's so hard to break, but I recognized in that moment they can't break this cycle for me.

No.

This is about me doing work and seeing if I actually can stay in this relationship with what happened.

Yes.

Because that loop is exhausting.

It's exhausting, but you're right, and you think it's helping you, but it's not.

It's not.

I would obsessively call his voice mail like 10 times a day. Who else has called him? Who else has called him? So the other thing is like, so you're trying to rebuild trust, but it's also interesting to like create a new relationship. Like where are we now? Like don't go back to the past. It might never be how it was, but you could build something new and stronger and just more honest.

Yeah. Ruptures happen. That's a given in any relationship. Cheating is kind of the ultimate rupture or one of the ultimate ruptures along with a few other ones. And if I constantly, like, you don't take out the trash, and I bring back the fury I have, and it's because you cheated on me, that's on me. I have to go to therapy, I have to process that, and I have to process it with you, but I cannot keep weaponizing what hasn't been processed against the other person. There is no way to repair that rupture. And even though I might not say, and you cheated on me, it's embedded in the injury.

It's embedded in the injury. Right, right. Oh, it's tricky, but see to me, Couples can also very much repair from this too. It doesn't have to mean that it's the end if you do this kind of work with a guided therapist. You're willing to look at it and if you really both genuinely want to make it work. If one person isn't invested in it, then like that's probably not gonna, you know, not gonna heal this shit.

No, love is an action and it takes everyone in the relationship to continue to action, to rebuild, to establish and reestablish the relationship and intimacy.

Rebuilding, reinventing together. What kind of relationship do you want to co-create now, knowing that this rupture happened? I love it. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. you can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Tik Tok, and X. It's all at sex with Emily, and I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sexamily.com for free guides, articles, and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. Have a question about sex dating or relationships? Call my hotline 559 talk sex. That's 559-825-5739 or leave a message at sexwithemily.com/ask. And hey, was it good for you? Email me anytime at feedback@sexwithemily.com. I'd love to hear what you're thinking.