https://www.listennotes.com/e/b4e30b3c8d9040449991a924849699d2

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Head to sexwithemily.com/magicwand and find your favorite. Let's be real, even with amazing chemistry, sometimes you just want that little extra spark. And that is why I've been loving High Love from Viiia. I've been telling you about them for a long time now. Oh, that's spelled V-I-I-A. It's a hemp-based gummy, and that's all about heightening pleasure, enhancing intimacy, and helping you fully drop into the moment. I've used High Love so many times. I give it out at parties. I bring it everywhere because it's really just feeling better in your body and also connecting with other people. I have to tell you, it delivers all the time. Whether I'm with a partner or just having a connected night with myself, I feel it in my body. You just feel open. I feel more relaxed. All those thoughts of the day just melt away. It's kind of like my senses just light up. I breathe deeper, I feel better, and everything just flows. So what's in it? Well, it's a beautiful blend of organic hemp and time-tested aphrodisiac herbs like macaroot, damiana, horny goat weed. So originally it was a limited Valentine's Day they release, but it was so popular they made it permanent. Everything's lab tested, made in the US, and shipped discreetly. No medical card needed. Just good vibes, great ingredients, and a whole new level of pleasure. If you're 21 and over, try Viya for 15% off and get a free gift with your first order. Just go to viya.co/emily that's V-I-A-A.co/emily and just use code EMILY for 15% off and a free gift with your first order. That's viya.co/emily, use code EMILY. For me, freedom is safety. And so attaching myself to someone is unsafe because it's vulnerable. They could leave, they could hurt me, which in a sense, it's two sides of the same thing. You're like, you,'re gonna leave and hurt me if I lock it down. I'm probably like, I don't even wanna go towards that thing. And also, I've always felt my conditioning around my survival was that I'm doing it on my own. I've got this on my own. It'd be fun to hang out, but I don't know that I need you around all the time to be like, my only one.

Yeah.

And though probably deep down inside, I really would love that. Have you ever found yourself wondering, where did the spark go? Like, it used to be so good. The butterflies, the chemistry, the can't keep your hands off each other energy. It all just flowed. And now you're in the same room, but something feels off. Just dull, disconnected. so what happened? And more importantly, can you get that feeling back? Do you even want the spark once you had, or is there something deeper, more nourishing, and way more sustainable that you're actually craving? Well, in today's episode, we're talking about the myth of the spark, what it actually is, why it Fades, and what your desire for it might really be pointing to. I'm joined by someone who's not only a brilliant mind, but also a Dear friend, Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a therapist, trauma specialist, somatic healer, and founder of the Embody Lab, an incredible space to reconnect with your body, your pleasure, and your full aliveness. So if you've been asking, can we get the spark back? The answer might surprise you. Let's dive in. Okay, but how is it going?

Dating? Well, Amy. Amy had said to me, Go on eight first dates.

Ooh.

Eight different first dates. She was like, Don't have any expectations of a second date. Just go on eight first dates, especially after a breakup. Like, you got to just sample... You got to sample what's out there and see what you like again. Because you've changed. You've evolved. Even if you're in a relationship, you're continuously evolving. And that's why I love going on a first date again and again and again with a partner.

But different people or no, just the person you're dating.

But right now... You're actually going on a first date. I'm actually going on a first date.

I like that.

Yeah, and I think it's an interesting mix. Sometimes it's such an interesting, great, like, intellectual chemistry, but physically it doesn't feel that...

It doesn't transfer.

It doesn't transfer. Sometimes there's this physical, like, primal energy that's there, but it's like the intellectual or the depth of conversation isn't there. And I'm kind of like, again, I'm trying not to ask the question too much at this point of like, does it all need to be there?

Well, that is the question when it comes to attraction and wanting to have sex with someone. Does it all have to be there? And I think when we put the expectations of, well, if it's your partner and it's your serious significant other, well, of course we want the intellectual and the physical.

And the emotional.

And the emotional and the relational. However, if we're just going on some first dates and you want to see if you're into them, want to have sex with them, like you might not know if you have them all at once, or maybe you have one and not the other. And depending on what kind of relationship you're looking for, maybe there is just one that you're like, every time I see him, I want to bang him, and that's my person for sex. Yeah. And this, but ultimately maybe you want someone who has the all of it.

Yeah, I think so. But also the reality that It can grow. Like, not all of them have to be there at the beginning. Like, I think we put a lot of emphasis on, like, woo, woo, yes, that primal energy there in the beginning. But I've been with people where it wasn't there for the first two months, and then all of a sudden I was like, Whoa, I am so attracted to them. I don't even know what to do.

Okay, so when you say it wasn't there the first two months, like you literally, like, this is my buddy, this is my new friend, maybe emergency contact.

But not someone I'm ever gonna see his dick. Yeah, I mean, I was like, this person is really cool, they're special, there's something interesting about them. I could see myself hanging out and connecting consistently. And I was physically not attracted to them. There was an energy that was kind of a miss. It just didn't feel... And then even the first time we... First couple months of actually having sex, I was like, nah.

Really?

I called you.

I know.

I know. And I was like, do I exit now? Because it's just not there, but there's so many other features that are pretty amazing. And it was like, can I train myself to be attracted to them? Can I find what is the pathway to attraction? And it wasn't just an absence of physical attraction. It was like a energetic attraction that was missing.

That makes sense. Because I think that there are so many layers to attraction. Yes, there's the physical. But then there's the, is this somebody that I I can emotionally connect with and really have great conversations with this. Can I actually learn to, like, the more I learn about this person, I actually really respect them. I like the way they move through the world. I like how they treat their friends. They've got really interesting people in life. And so that's really hot. Oh, I really like their values. They volunteer on the weekend and do this really cool thing. Or they, you know what I mean? They've shown me kindness. They've shown empathy. And so there's no way, which is goes back to this point, on the first date, you're ever know all of that. No. And so was, was the point that go on a bunch of first dates and then actually see if you want a second one or is, because I kind of think if a first date doesn't completely suck, go on a second one. That's my take.

Yeah.

Because there's more, there's probably more to be revealed always, but if you liked him enough, what do you think about that?

I mean, I think, so I don't know about you, but like when I met someone and I'm like, yes, on a first date or second date, I'm just kind of all in and I can't date anyone else.

Okay.

And so this is also breaking that pattern of being like, okay, it's our third date, let's move in together. Yeah, okay, that's what you've done.

That's what you've done, right?

Yeah, but it kind of like, you know, essentially it's about like getting to be more comfortable with the process of dating, which is meant to actually be slow and grow as opposed to this fast heavy like, primal entry point.

That's really it. That's exactly it. That primal, you always hear those stories about couples like, we've been on one date and we never separated for three months. We've all done that, but then I just think, how well do you really know this person? Danger, danger. And that's when either love bombing can happen or they're just like, you,'re my everything. We're getting married. And when you meet my parents in June, this is gonna happen. And they start dropping all of those things where you feel prematurely connected. But what you're saying is your pattern has been doing that because maybe that felt safe. You wanted to be all in.

Yeah, it was a total trauma response, Em.

Say more about that. No, no, no. Is that everyone?

Yeah.

Sometimes we... So there's this whole liminal space of getting to know someone. It's the in-between. We're not yet settled and all the nerves are present in our stomach, the butterflies. And we kind of just want the anticipation to fucking end. And so we jump the liminal space. We jump the liminal gap and go, you,'re mine. I want you. This is settled. This is like, I want this. And part of it is like growing more tolerance for the discomfort of getting to know someone.

Right. And to say more about that, the jumping the liminal gap, it's because it feels so good, but it's so vulnerable to feel so good. So I wanna lock this down and know they're my person so I don't feel unsafe.

Yes.

Yes. that is so interesting. So you're like, we don't really know enough, but you know that you have enough to feel that excitement. Yeah. And what's funny is, is that you're saying that excitement makes you wanna lock it down. And other peoples like myself, I want that to go on forever. And I don't wanna lock it down because I love the excitement and the newness. And then I, my pattern in relationships has been like month three or four, the guy's like, okay, we've been doing this long enough. Do you think you could be my girlfriend? fun.

I'm like, so you love the intensity at the beginning.

Yeah.

And then the moment that it starts to get like contained or organized or like labeled, it's like there's a fear of that going away or experiencing that.

I have a pattern of that.

Yeah. Yeah.

For me, freedom is safety. And so attaching myself to someone is unsafe because it's vulnerable. They could leave, they could hurt me, which in a sense it's two sides of the same thing. You're like, you're gonna leave and hurt me if I lock it down. I'm probably like, I don't even wanna go towards that thing. And also, I've always felt my conditioning around my survival was that I'm doing it on my own. I've got this on my own. It'd be fun to hang out, but I don't know that I need you around all the time to be like my only one. Even though probably deep down inside, I really would love that at some point.

I mean, look, connecting, Relationships, intimacy, it's fucking vulnerable. It has to be. We have to lower our drawbridge of ourself to be able to let people in and to meet them. And that's terrifying. And we have all these different ways of essentially making sure we don't feel vulnerable because in the past we've been hurt or we've been hurt by other people or, you know, whatever it is. but ultimately it creates more havoc than it does connection.

Right.

And when we talk about, Ooh, I want that spark, that feeling of the hotness in the beginning to last, it can, if we continue to let our guard down, that drawbridge down, and continue to build layers and layers and layers.

Of connection, which is the slowing down process, which is what I think we're both saying is that there's this rush towards the dopamine and the feel good chemicals, and I wanna lock this down. It's so good. I want it all the time. And yet, when you're caught up in that attraction phase, you're not really like widening the lens to see all the other things that are going on. So you're not taking an accurate snapshot of what this person is. And you're like riding high on all that excitement. But what it made me think of is like, first off, that's such great, it's so interesting to think about the slowing down and the dating process. But then it comes down to the age-old attraction response. So this is gonna be, this is gonna be like a stereotypical trope, men this, women, so I'm just gonna say it. But often they, I've heard this for years, like, well, men know within 20 seconds if they want to have sex with someone. And women, they would have said, say, say like, oh, we take a little bit longer to get to know someone. And, and then it becomes, the attraction can grow. And I would I would say, I don't know if that is, I would say that for men, maybe that's true, but you're somebody who's also a little bit more evolved and a little bit more like understand all the nuance to it. And yeah, maybe you know if you want to have sex there or not, but it's not just about that. There's about other things to know. Yeah.

And I would say like, sometimes- I.

Don'T even know if that's relevant anymore though. Yeah.

I mean, sensuality- People are evolving and they're like demisexuals and sapiosexuals, like, Sapio, like, I'm really turned on by- I.

Don'T want to say that part about men wanting to bang women. Okay, go ahead.

Where Sapio sexuals like, I'm attracted to your intelligence, and that feeds these other forms of primal energy or really attracted, demisexual to this emotional bond. And that's what really gets me hot and bothered. And I think the question of, can we train ourselves to be attracted to someone? It's more of like finding what is the organizing principle of your attraction. Like what is the fucking thing that turns you on completely? Is it a real emotional connection? Is it intelligence? Is it something physical? Is it working out together? Is it, what is it that then like opens the doorway for everything else?

I wonder if there's like a checklist of these are all the areas that I have to figure out or is it different person by person? Or at the end of the day, if you do pull out in the aggregate, well, I wanna feel intellectually stimulated by them I wanna feel emotionally stimulated. I wanna feel that we could have conversations that you're kind and hold space for me and have empathy and compassion. But it seems like it all comes out in different ways. Like we don't ever actually know it all right away, but it does take time to figure it out. But I'm wondering if there's some like test we could give someone to know.

So we don't waste time. I mean, you know how we have like the love languages? To me, this is about like safety language. So it's like if you can identify your own safety language or cues of safety, and then teach someone else, that's training yourself to be more attractive. Yeah, that's it. You know, if I say to you, okay, my love language, and I say this all the time to people, my safety language, my love language, is asking me follow-up questions. And you might go, why is that important? Because I might share something really vulnerable. And if I feel like I'm on a cliff, which is what I feel like when I'm sharing something vulnerable, and there's no one there to catch me, which is a follow-up question, then I feel like I shut down. And then I'm certainly not going to be attracted. So when someone asks me a follow-up question, it's a physical sense in my body that I'm like, Someone is there. And then I'm like, Let's do it.

Can you give me an example of something you would say to someone and what the follow-up could be that would feel good, and then what has happened in the past?

It's honestly like anything to like a memory of my past of like this, I did this when I lived in New York. I used to take martial arts and it was a really big deal for me growing up in a really abusive household to, this is actually a real story, abusive household to like to learn how to fight. And I was with someone then who just said, Cool. And then like, oh my gosh, I could just feel myself shut down and I didn't want to have sex with them. Where if they had said to me, wow, that's really intense. Thank you so much for sharing it. Or, Hey, what feels so different for you now than it did even then when you were training as a martial artist?

Yeah.

Like anything.

Anything. Like you're like, I just said I had a traumatic household and I used this This method of healing modality, and you're like, cool, what's for dinner? Yeah, that feels dismissed and on safe, and then you shut down. I totally get it.

On a dating app, if someone's like, how's your day? And I'm like, here's what happened in my day. And I'm sharing, and it's really like, I'm testing the waters of can they show up? And if they can, I just don't. Thank you so much for this conversation. I feel completely this conversation.

Texting is hard too. Some people are, I mean, this vulnerability in holding space is so hard for people in real life and then like the whole texting thing when people don't know how to do that. But I guess it is a way.

To, to know quickly.

But I just thought of something. So, you know, people talk about like the ick. Like I knew the second I wasn't into somebody, like the time, you know, they wore that weird sock or they scratched their, I don't know what it is. I don't care remember by left. Well, I've had a few icks. However, do you think that there is an attraction ick? Like what would be the attraction? Ah, or like when you're like, oh, I'm suddenly attracted to you now. Like these certain things came together. I saw your empathy, your vulnerability, you're hot, I saw your penis, I saw this, and then you're like, Spark. Like is there a moment where you feel like, 'cause you said it could also build up. Do you think there's a moment or can you place any of the moments you're like, Now I'm in.

So the opposite of that is a spark.

Yeah.

Okay. And I think catching the sparks is so important because people always ask, Both of us all the time, it's like, Hey, been in a relationship for five years, where's the spark?

How do we get the spark back?

Number one question I get asked. And if you're not absorbing the micro sparks, how are you going to, like, you gotta absorb them. These little moments of like, they looked at you and you just felt like their gaze on you and you're like, Take that in. It actually is more about the micro sparks. In the beginning, that macro spark is about the novelty of it all. The specialness, the uniqueness. The spontaneity.

I've seen this person do this thing say this thing, you've never seen him naked before.

It's new.

New not me as Friday.

That's what creates the physiological, part of the physiological spark. To maintain it, find novelty is one part of it, but take in the little moments that are those micro sparks that aren't.

I really take them in and then expand upon them and remember what they were, because I think that this, that when we lose attraction and we're not sure about attraction, we want the spark back. I wanna say like, honestly fuck the spark, you're probably not gonna get that spark back.

No.

You're not gonna get the spark because that spark that most people are referring to is the spark that arose from the honeymoon phase when you were free basing, so it's called free basing, free loading, free spacing. You were inundated. You were taking an IV of the most delicious cocktails, feel good cocktails, hormones. of oxytocin and dopamine, serotonin, and they're all at once because of novelty, spontaneity, newness. This person's amazing. You are the highest fuck if you've ever been in your life. And it's sparking all over the place. You can't even micro spark. You can't even find it because it's all spark. It's all spark. But like any great drug, it's amazing. And then it comes back down again. And you're like, damn, that was a good spark. Can we get that spark back? And I just wanna say, I don't know that you, It has to be that spark. But what I love that you're saying is cultivate the mini spark.

Cultivate the mini spark, stop focusing on the original spark because you actually can't get it back. It's not our physiology.

And why would we even want to go back? Yeah, right.

It's a new spark. And if we're chasing the old spark, then we cannot progress in relationships. And relationships are developmentally progressive, which means that at six-month marker, the one-year marker, more of our early childhood shit is going to arise. As we move through the layers of intimacy, more things are going to come up for us to navigate. And if we're not open navigating it, then basically you're not ready to be in a relationship.

Yeah, you gotta learn to navigate it and know that the fact that you're opening up to these patterns from childhood are coming up. and I almost want to go off of what that is because I always feel like I say that and be like, what do you mean my parents are perfect? Nothing happened. But it just does. It's how you were conditioned and you lived at home with some people and you learned a certain thing and it's going to come out in the relationship.

Yeah.

But the problem is when we're in that, we're both getting like having really big reactions to it.

Yeah.

And when we have those big reactions, they come in the form of, I don't know, stress, worry, anxiety, spiking cortisol, which makes it hard. to get aroused and feel attraction. So the spark literally can't-- it's like you're dousing water on the spark because you're bringing in these patterns that are making you feel less-- well, they occupy.

Your attention and energy. It's like if we have two-- if you imagine at the beginning of a relationship, it's like two onions bumping rinds, you know?

Bumping rinds.

Bumping rinds. And then we're peeling away layers, and as you know, you peel away the layers of the onions and you get a little teary and you get preoccupied with the layers. And that is part of the beauty of intimacy. That is what intimacy is, is we are peeling the layers to become more interconnected.

Yes.

And as we do that, more things are going to come up, like our frustrations we might have, the annoyances that come up. That is also part of peeling away the the end, the end yet.

And then we don't know even, yeah. But then most of us are not equipped to actually dissect all of that stuff and to talk about it in a healthy way without feeling, you know, and then what happens is, this is where, is the sex, yeah, the blame game, the resentments, but when it comes to sex, so if we're talking about the sex spark in particular, the challenge here is that for many is that we don't even know, like a lot of times, because our sexuality, and I guess I could speak this a lot for women, but for men, they need this too, is that we were sort of riding on those like feel good hormones and the chemicals we didn't really have to think about as much like what we actually want. A lot of our sex has been been more performative. And so a lot of our sex, a lot of female sexuality has been in service or more performative towards male sexuality only because that's what most pleasure and most sex education has been focused on penis goes in vagina. That is sex when we know that only 20% of women are having orgasms or pleasure that way. So at the beginning, it was amazing, the honeymoon phase, six months to two years. And then women are like, I don't even know if I, again, not all women, but many, they're just like, oh, now I, and then their partners are like, This is not to blame men. Like men, my harkers out to men because men have to like, there's so much for them to, they're supposed to know everything about sex. They're supposed to come in hard. They're supposed to the note that they, their PR is that they always want sex and they're horny all the time and wanna be hard and ready to go. And not only that, they should know what they're doing and they should whatever. And then, and then in women's is like, well, I gotta like sometimes please a man or I should be able to get turned out when he is, but I'm not 'cause my arousal was, is a mystery to me. So then they're trying to navigate learning this entire spectrum of their own sexual turn-ons, desires, and wants when maybe they grew up in a home or there was like a lot of shame around sex, or there was a lot of like, I don't feel great if I masturbate. So what I'm saying is this spark is really just like a biochemical neurological conditioning that happens early on that is a mystery. and not really based in something that is sustainable. Until you look at all, like, when I say sex is wellness, you have to look at all the areas of your life and all the areas with this person that could contribute to really hot sex again. 'Cause you can't, I'm not saying it's not gonna be amazing sex again. You're gonna expand, you're gonna grow, you're gonna learn nerve endings all over your body, but it just might not feel like that.

Yeah, I mean, essentially, if you think about it, the honeymoon period is you are drunk. You are literally drunk on that cocktail and then you get to sober up. And the question as you sober up from that cocktail and the relationship is how do you find that excitement between each other organically? How do you find it in different ways that's not reliant on keep drinking the cocktail? Because you can't.

You can't.

You cannot keep drinking the cocktail.

You're not at the same time. You run out of the cocktail. And at the same time, the cocktail's coming out of your system. You now have new things coming in, which is this partner's patterns and how they didn't really show up for me and how they didn't ask follow-up questions or how they didn't- Because you didn't see what's not- so now the question, do we get the spark back? And what, in this 20th year of doing this podcast, there's so much that I have deeply been thinking about because if these are the same questions every single day, no matter where you live, your gender, what country you're in, It's like, once for all, I wanna amplify this information and have people understand that this question, maybe people are asking the wrong question. Getting the spark back isn't the question. It's how do I really learn to deeply understand who I am as a sexual being with my partner or without my partner? What kind of touch do I like? What times a day do I like sex? When do I feel the most sexual? Is it in the morning? is it at night? Is it after I work out? Is it certain foods? Is it after we have this really, like, intense emotional bond or a really intellectual conversation? And then you start to look at all these factors in your life. Like, we have to become our own sex experts and start to build that knowledge. Like, I tell people, like, put a note in your phone. Like, every time you notice something was hot or something got you felt made you feel more attracted to your partner or actually yourself made you feel more aroused. Collect that list, because it's almost like, okay, think of it like food. Like, think of it this way. Like, you go, you go to you. I've been. Scott very particular eater. Like Scott, I just like, Scott knows exactly what he wants and exactly does what he doesn't want. No matter how many restaurants you go to, no matter like how many Michelin stars you go to, like you're particular.

Yeah.

Because you've had so much food in your life and experiences and you've lived a life of many different cuisines and cultures and lived all over the world. Here's the thing with the sex menu for the majority of people. It's very, very small. It's like on a little fucking postcard and it says like, I should be aroused when my partner is, penis erect, vagina should be wet, I should be on top or the bottom, or have doggy style and a blowjob and oral, and then fall asleep and go to sleep and oh wait, I wasn't really aroused. Like that's literally it's five things.

Yeah.

And so people, or maybe anal, every birthday. But what I'm saying is the menu of sex has not only built, not been built on, I actually tasted this souffle and I developed a taste for it. And I know that I like, or I know I like my steak medium rare because I've had so much stakes with sex. Most people have had sex where they've been really unconscious or disassociated, that unconscious, they've been a little disassociated. They might have been in people pleasing mode where they weren't even feeling what they wanted. And then they also, if they haven't had a lot of sex or they felt bad, Then there's the whole, like the pillars of Sex IQ or talk about. If they were never really feeling confident about the sex they've had before, then they don't feel great about it. They're not really building the tools. So then you bring in porn, which is how many people grew up like, well, sex is what I saw in porn. And so that's what's on the menu. Is like that, what's out, there's a menu of porn, or that's like what someone told me once, but it's a very small pool. What am I trying to say? The sex menu. So then we're asking people, I want you to decide what your biggest turn-ons are, how to get the spark back, how to connect with someone, but you're not even really sure what feels good to you yet because you've never really taken the time with yourself or in relation to someone else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, what I really hear in that is like, yeah. You have to get to know yourself. You have to get to know your partner or partners in terms of gaining back that spark and like discover and explore and If the menu is so limited.

For many, yeah.

For many, then of course. And it's not like you have to go do crazy shit on the other side of that.

Notice.

Notice.

Be attuned to what you actually like, and over time you'll build. That's why I say write it down. Like, oh, I liked when this person kissed my neck for a few minutes. I'm gonna take note of that, that that's something that actually got me turned on, or I really liked that we had that long that dinner or that walk on the beach or whatever it is. I guess this going back to the spark, that's gonna be the, like how you're gonna, because no matter what stage you're at, you're gonna want the variety and the newness, and you're also gonna wanna be able to figure out what are the elements that are gonna be required for us to keep this spark alive, especially if we wanna be in a long-term relationship with someone. And I think we've been looking in the wrong places or trying to go backwards in time when saying, presently in this moment, what do I know has been great? And what am I interested in, curious in, what do I want to learn about? And that's why, yeah, we have, I have thousands of podcasts, books. You've got shows, we've got a lot that people can learn. But again, we don't usually explore this area. You're tracking me, right? What I'm saying about the sexual menu for, because again, that's in my knowledge is that, like, I'm constantly saying, like, people, like, they literally are so afraid to talk about sex. Doggy style, like, kiss, make out, penetration all over in eight minutes. Guy came, she probably didn't. Maybe he finished her off with oral. Then we fell asleep and went to bed. It it wasn't like there was anything new, fun, novel to try. And that got really boring after a while, even though it was really hot in the beginning. So part of the spark is that even if you're still doing those things, that's not the whole menu of what could feel hot.

Well, do you feel like when people ask us, how do I get the spark back? That they're only referring to sex or they're referring to this total intoxication? Because that's not always the same thing, you know what I mean? We call that passion.

I think they want the passion, the passion. They want the passion. Yeah, I think they want it all. I think that they're co-mingling it all together because it all happened together. The great sex and the spark and that it all, the all encompassing whatever was happening in that time, they want that feeling again. And this is what I also hear from couples all the time who've been together for so long, they're like, you,'re so lucky, Emily, 'cause you get to go date and experience it all the time and I'll never have that. They almost have like, this death of that experience you just described. They're like, I don't know that I'll be able to feel that for someone again. And that newness, it's like we put that on this like aspirational or this pedestal and we want it again.

Because we're chasing intensity instead of intimacy.

Yes.

And it's like, if we are so numb in our life, and all of us have some level of numbness that's called circumstantial numbness. I'm numb right now. Well, hi, numb. And if we're trying to rise above the threshold of numbness, then all we can feel that's above the threshold of numbness is intensity. And we go, oh, that's living. That's what living is if it's on a volume of 10, you know, the decibel is at the top decibel, you know, like top volume. But like life is full of these subtle, sensual experiences that are like delightful and tasty, Like how, like when was the last time you tasted, took the time to like taste an apple? That might sound so dumb, but when was the last time you slowed down to like to really enjoy something?

Savor.

To savor it. And in a relationship, in the beginning, we're so over inundated. It's on like a decibel of 10 passion, but actually that's still there. It's just become the norm. You know, and underneath it, it's like, okay, well, what's more important, passion or safety? And can safety be the foundation, which is what grows over time, for more variations of passion?

That's exactly it. I think that we, like you were saying, we want the passion, but then we skip over the limerence to get the safety. Because now we got the safety, but then how do you still cultivate eroticism in the safety? because when you're safe, and I know this person's predictable, I trust them, I know when they're coming home, I know how everything's gonna be, that cancels out the passion and the arousal. And so the work, I hate to even say work in the show, I hate to be like, yeah, work. But truly the work is knowing, like, I just would love to put billboards everywhere when someone's going about to get married, or maybe we pass out little flyers at wedding chapels and be like, Hey, by the way, The work that you're gonna have to do is like the fun work is like continuing to prioritize your connection over everything else. And like it is literally our jobs to find ways that we continue to connect with variety, with spontaneity, like you could still do that and to still stay curious and open with each other and promise that we will always like be on this self, this sexual exploration journey together. Because another thing that I find if I just go off on the spark is that I, I wanna see if you found this.

Yeah.

Typically, when I hear from couples, there's usually one person who is very into like fixing the sex life, wanting it to be better, looking at the time of the frequency of sex and the pleasure of sex and worried about it. And they can't talk to their partner when they try to, like there's one person pushing this giant sex boulder up the hill.

Yeah.

And another one's like, we shouldn't talk about it or I don't have time or I'm fine. And then that's where I just think it should be a collaboration. So tell these people like, please prioritize, put this in your wedding vows that we are always going to collaborate on and prioritize our sex life. We're going to both agree that we will have a growth mindset around sex. And just like we do about our health or our values towards parenting or saving money, We're gonna also do that with our spark, our sex life, because that's where the problem is, which is why I think most couples get to this point and they're like, I don't know what to do about it. And then that's when they're like, well, I bought a toy, or I listened to this, or I did that, but it's multi-layered faceted and we're trying to nuance it out for people here.

Yeah.

And where else can you find passion together?

Yeah.

And let that passion bleed into the bedroom. Or on a bus, or in public, wherever, whatever, you know what I mean?

That might be the thing. On a bus?

On a bus? Sex on a bus? Sex on a bus? Is that the new podcast?

Sex on a bus? Maybe, we're trying to think of something.

Not a bus, maybe a plane.

Sex on a plane? Have you ever? Not sex on a bus, that is defined by penetration.

There was a little bit of like masturbation action. Oh, on a plane?

Yeah.

Hot.

You?

Come on. It was supposed to happen once. There was a whole setup for it.

And it didn't work out. What's like the setup? You put a blanket over you and.

You get some lube? Well, that's what I thought it was, but the other person made it very sophisticated and when I couldn't understand the sophistication, they were upset.

And so- oh my God, like, were.

They like roses and moves? No, I didn't- no, it was like.

A seatbelt and a pillow and on.

Top of that a blanket. Oh, he was like ergonomically like- All of this fucking complex shit and I was like, Can't we just- Can we just bone on the couch? Can we just bone? I've definitely done that on a moving train. That was fun. But on a, yeah, you know, it's, and I, you know, I can appreciate that it's a felony on a plane.

I was gonna say that. I'm like, remember, sex on a plane and outside is illegal.

So, you know, all of that. I don't practice this at home. So, no, not on a plane. On a train.

On a train.

And a few other places. But I think like, sometimes, you know, and I've experienced this in partnership, after a certain amount of time, going out to a really nice dinner where we're talking about it and we're unpacking all the flavors and then we go home and have sex. And that sex is so much more flavorful because we're carrying that into the bedroom. Or we go to a pottery class and we're using our hands and we're creating and we feel really satisfied and we just bring that on in. It doesn't have to be straight on into the sex. sex. It's like find the things that you can be impassioned together around.

I love that. Those are like part of your like arousal runway might be like knowing that once a month or once a week you like take a pottery class or cook a meal together. And it's the incredible thing is it seems simple enough, but I think the problem that most couples get into is that they just don't. They're like, for whatever reason, We know that like all the research have shown that date night once a week is a non-negotiable and the couples who do that report more sexual satisfaction. But what if we just make it fun? Like one month you plan something, then I plan something. You think with couples who are committing to their life together and they're living together and then they've, I think it's kids. Babies fuck couples up for a bit. They're like, we don't even have time to like sleep, do anything. And like now you wanna play a date night, fuck you, Emily. But I'm not even saying that. I'm saying like it could just be like a morning off or a three hour drive or something that gets you even if you're tired. Like I just think that what happens is couples so much time goes past and they can't remember how to do those things anymore. So the advice is to keep doing them. Like put that in your marriage or.

Your commitment vows, put in your contracts, Put it in your calendar for sure.

Because- your calendar is a huge reminder.

I think there's something around safety again that then we become a little stale because of the safety. It's like, I know you'll be there, but it's like, I know you'll be there as a friend, but I still am gonna be like, let's go do an adventure. Yeah, well, I love that about you.

Scott's the, you're the most adventurous friend. Like, I did, was it paintball? What'd we do? We did laser tag. Laser tag. I was like, hell no, I'm not a game person. I'm not playing laser tag. I just, not hell no, I just felt like a strong, like, can't we go back to that place and have that really good gluten-free dessert to just stay there for a while. But also, it was out of my box. Oh, and also as a kid, I was always picky and not great at games. So I have a thing about team sports. A lot came up for me. But what I love is you're like, we're in, there was like 15 of us, and we all freaking did it with bunch of other young 12-year-olds, young kids, and it was such a blast. So you naturally bring that thrill and excitement to friendship too. So I can only imagine what it's like in the bedroom. Well, there's other problems in the relationships. So you're high on the active skill, high on the new activities.

Yeah, I like doing things that are co-creative together.

Co-creative is the key term.

Yeah, maybe we don't have to bond over our trauma. Maybe we can bond over shared fun activities. I don't know, y'all. That sounds a little fun.

Yeah, totally. That's true. A lot of times we did. We spent so much time because of our brains in survival mode and whatever we were trained. We spent so much time with, like, what's wrong?

Yeah.

And what the problems are. And, like, what if it simply is a pottery class?

A new class.

I mean, again.

Yeah.

Okay. I have a side note, real Insight, which is called, like, breaking fourth wall, whatever the, like, effort. I have these things now being the 20th year, I'm going to bring this up a lot, is I think. I hear voices going, oh yeah, date night. Oh yeah, prioritize relationship. But I'm like, legitimately, I wanna yell at everyone. It's like, you,'re writing me every day and calling in and saying you don't have it. And 99.9% of couples have not even done one of these things. They have not ever played a card game, like the Esther Perel card game that you asked you fun questions or we have this, okay, Aria is this really cool new, Company I'm working with, it's like an AI dating coach that you, it's so cool. I want to do it with you. You need a partner 'cause I'm not like sleeping with anyone, one person right now. I'm not sleeping with you, but it asks you questions. What are your turn-ons, your turn-offs? You each get this like AI concierge. It's an app. And then you both get to talk about what you like and what you're into. And then they send you like a sexy box once a month. So it's sort of like a sex coach, therapy coach for couples, and it moves at your pace. So, like, it was like, I really would be into temperature plays. So they sent me, like, a massage candle, and it's-- and since it's using an AI concierge, she's lovely. Yeah. I would love to invite this to dinner. They really keep track, like, how's it going? But it's not pressureful. Like, it would message, Hey, Scott, Emily answered the questionnaire. Will you answer it? And it-- yeah. So anyway, I'm just thinking about the spark. I'm thinking about also recognizing how hard it is. this to develop new habits, to make time for anything else other than survival. Because going back to your point, when you get into a relationship, you feel safe. If I'm safe, one area I don't need to work on, this person's safe, they're not going anywhere. I'm not connecting that safety is also canceling out me wanting to suck your dick or whatever. So then I'm focused on all these other areas. So if there's a tool or a reminder or a calendar button or an app like Aria that can be like, Once a week, you can set it. Oh, babe, here's a reminder. Tonight we're supposed to give each other a massage for 10 minutes. Like, it could, it might just be those kind of outside reminders because I just know how hard it is to develop new habits on my own. I get caught up with things too, where I'm like, oh, I haven't called.

A friend in a while or I.

Haven'T, you know what I'm saying? It's a tool. It's a tool.

Yeah, we're gonna do it together. I'm looking forward to it.

Okay, I'm gonna send it to you after this.

Can I throw a wrench in the plans?

Always wrench it up.

The thing we often don't talk about is that spark that you feel in the beginning might just be something we call a trauma tingle.

Ooh.

So a trauma tingle is the same type of hyper magnetism attraction that you're like, Fuck yeah. But the reality is, is you're not even centered in yourself. You're like, you're obsessed with them. you're constantly focusing on them as opposed to being in relation with someone. It's totally different. It's basically where, like, you're tripping over yourself and it's, again, you're chasing the intimate, that you're chasing the intensity.

And.

But can you explain how that relates back to trauma tingle? Is it because in childhood maybe you had someone in your family that was unattainable or wasn't there for you?

Yes.

So then like, oh, I'm actually getting tingly, but it's in my trauma space.

It's in your trauma space, not my perineum. It's basically like the red flags are your spark. And so often that's- It's so nuanced. It's so nuanced. And so, yes, there is this whole biological period in the beginning where it's like, you know, there's a lot of energy, there's a lot of passion, there's a lot of attention, there's a of wetness here and there. And it's a big difference between when we're meeting someone and we're finding that passion and it actually lasts longer versus a trauma tingle when it's like this hot, like, I don't know, I'm just so attracted to them and I can't stop thinking about them. That's more likely a trauma tingle because we're chasing the familiar red flag.

How do we know, is there a great way that we could teach people whether it's a trauma tingle or a It's a real tingle or like a route, like a healthy tingle. I don't like using the word healthy anymore, but like the tingle that we want.

Yeah, the one we're looking for that's more sustainable.

A sustainable tingle.

A sustainable tingle. Bliss, please. Do you remember when we first met and it was kind of like a love at first sight?

We did.

And we canceled the whole rest of our day and we just spent it together. But we were both centered in ourself. We could feel our own breath. We could feel like there wasn't anxiety of like, will we still be friends after we meet? Do you love me enough? Do you like me? Am I attractive? All of those insecurities, I'm also not chasing you. And even if you don't call me back, I'll be like, okay, I'm gonna feel what that's like in my body, and I'm gonna be like, Hey, I'd love to connect more. In the trauma tingle, it starts to spiral and the old familiar shit starts to come up of like, do they like me? Oh my God, am I enough? That is mature. That's mature.

And that can also happen in friendship?

It absolutely can happen in friendship. When we're chasing the familiar, like, I.

Mean, because we fell in love. We did.

We fell in love, but it wasn't.

We, But there was no, we weren't disorganized.

We weren't disorganized around that connection, that bond. When it feels like a roller coaster, that is much more likely we are in. Like, here's a great example. I was so what I thought like in love with this person a couple of years ago, like four or five years ago. And I was like, oh my gosh, they are my person. They are absolutely my person. And like, wow, wow, wow. I'm so attracted to them. And they said to me, like, two dates in, they're like, you, know, I'm pretty avoidant. I'm not very available. I was like, that's okay. The fact that you even said that means you have some sort of awareness, which I'm attracted to.

Right.

All right. And then I couldn't stop thinking about them. And we'd go on some dates, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I am chasing love. I am fueled by the history of having to chase love to be loved. And this person replicates their own inability to meet me. It replicates my own history of being unable to met. That is a trauma tingle that I think is love, that I think is passion. It is not.

And that roller coaster you described was them not being available, basically telling you, not only not being available, but saying like, I'm avoiding you. I'm not always gonna text you back. I might as well call you back. It's almost like we know these things, but it sounds like that was a really powerful one for you where you're really, you're like, I'm really gonna not do that again. Try not to. Yeah. Like, I never say never.

How long do I have to do between text or waiting for them to text me back? All of those things or even like, I find myself closing off and then I find them coming closer to me. and like, that's exciting to me. That's a trauma tingle.

That's not passion.

Yeah.

That is such a great way to-- yeah. It's tricky, but you know what it made me think of, and I want to see what you think about this. So when you're talking about our relationship, which has blossomed into a beautiful friendship the last few years, we just sat down, we did the show, you were on my pocket, we were sitting here, and we were like, yeah, fuck it, let's go spend the day together. And it's always felt safe with you and just grown, grown, grown, layers. And I, my belief is that dating, when you're meeting someone new, you should also feel more of that. Like, and I would even argue to say, not that you become best friends, 'cause there's more, when you're dating, you're looking for more things. And for us, it was safe 'cause then we didn't have the romantic element. We knew we could be friends. However, I would say just that kernel of like, this is someone that I think is cool and I'd wanna hang out with again. I don't know if it's romantic or not, but we had this great feeling. Rather than, I would, if you had any, like, do they like me? Do they not? They didn't call me back. They said they were going to, they didn't. That's almost grounds for, like, maybe not a second date. Like, don't you think there's enough there? Or, like, I just feel like we should at least have a modicum of, this is really, really more good than bad.

Well, again, the trauma tingle, the trauma tingles is gonna rush us into things. It's not gonna really allow us to get to know someone. Yes, in a natural occurrence of all the cocktail hormones, we're a little drunk, we're a little like, was that a red flag? I'm not so sure. Maybe it was yellow, maybe it was green. I can't quite focus yet. But certainly during the trauma tingles, we are ignoring the red flags. We are looking, we are seeking for that passion, which is just intensity. It's not intimacy.

And that's such a wonderful thing. I love that. Intensity, not intimacy. Intimacy is not intense. Yeah.

And at the end of these relationships that begin with the trauma tingles and are basically continue to be that through the relationship, and I move in my hand like a roller coaster because that's what it is. And then we have to... And then when it destructs and it always breaks down and it always is so dramatic when it deconstructs and And we go, But that was the love of my life. And what we have to do is we have to reframe it from, that was the love of my life, was that was the love of my early life that I am trying to repeat. And that is such an important distinction because we are trying so fundamentally to come back into the familiar of our past. And that is not what love is.

That is not what love is.

And that is not what intimacy is.

And the thing here, that I want to say too, and this is probably for another time, but what I feel like, because this work, why I love talking about this stuff is I think it's, listen, another thing in 20 years, we've learned a lot more about somatic therapy, about trauma, about how things live in our body, that a lot of things we've been diagnosed as are really just nervous system regulation. There's a lot of interesting things going on. But then when you tell someone like, well, losing your body or it's childhood things, That still takes, like, I know that's taken me so much work and so much therapy to finally, like, understand what it means. Like, oh, I have daddy issues or I have disattachment. And I wonder if there's a way that we could, like, I want people to have it. Like, I don't want people to have to do all the work that we've had to do to get here because I still feel like I'm always thinking about the audience. I'm always thinking about people listening and I, because I know them so well, I know everyone so well who's been here with me. for so long and had been here, you know, listening. It's like, I know that we talk about this 'cause we've been in it.

Yeah, yeah.

But for some people, like, again, they go to like, oh, but my childhood was perfect. Or it's hard to get to that. Like, it's taken so long to realize that your parents did the best they could. It's generational. They didn't know how to attune to your needs. No one's parents really did. And when it comes to dating, I didn't even get this for a while. Like, I thought, I realized that for me, that pattern was, and maybe 'cause I was, I'm telling this 'cause I want people to understand it. It was like, my conditioning is that lost my father young age, he was my rock, suppose I lost him at 20. And that's so, when that happened, I felt very alone. I didn't have like the family that came in. This is a common story for people.

Yeah.

I'm going it all alone. I can do everything. I can't actually rely on anyone else to be there for me. So I'm gonna do it all. And in that doing it all, it's gonna create a lot of chaos, a lot of busyness, so I'm actually not even really open for intimacy. It's because I'm shut down. And also I'm not open for intimacy because if I actually love someone again as much as I deeply loved my father, say, this pain is too much, I don't want that again. So there's layers to that. So then what for me I might try to do is, I'm just working this out. I'll find someone and then I'll think a glimmer, not consciously, oh my God, they could probably can, we could create something here. They could help, maybe they're gonna save me in some way. Maybe I am gonna finally be able to feel safe in love. -Yeah. -And then that's unfair, maybe in a way, even though-- but then I'm still distant. I don't know. That was happening. Yeah.

I mean, it reminds me of, like--.

Is that explain it, peoples?

Yeah.

I don't know. It reminds me when a friend of mine lost his mom a couple years ago, and then he more recently broke up with his girlfriend. And he was like, yeah, she just wasn't there for me enough. And I was like, Were you looking for the love of your mom and your girlfriend?

Mm-.

Because they're not the same.

Yeah.

Could never provide that.

And your girlfriend isn't your mom and could never provide that sense of maternal connection and bond. And he goes, oh shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just broke up with her because that's, I wanted her to enact and be my mom.

Right.

So basically we want our partners to be our parents.

Yeah, we're complex, we're humans. And to go back to what you were asking about, how do we simplify it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to like an acronym. I want like a 10-minute morning exercise. Figure out your pattern.

Here's two really good easy ways is when I'm with someone, can I breathe? Can I literally feel and breathe is everything constricted?

Meaning like, yeah, like, yeah.

Am I like shallow breath? yeah, things like that. And it's like when I'm in the trauma tingles, for example, I'm not deep breathing. I'm not grounded. And what do I want for dinner? What do I want to watch tonight on television? It becomes about them in the trauma tingles. And if I'm like, oh, I want the spark back. I want the spark back. I would go back to when was the last time you slowed down, took the time to taste something like an apple? like, if you can't be in the Nuance of flavors of something you get and have in the everyday, how do you expect to do that with a partner?

I love that. And, like, lead into.

Yeah.

Because usually when we can't lean in with a partner, we're sort of numb to a lot of things. So just starting with, what am I tasting or what am I smelling? What am I seeing in my environment and grounding in all of our senses while we'll help us get back to our sensuality and our connection. Yeah.

We got to wake up every possible receptor in us to be more receptive to what they have to offer us.

Yeah.

Because what percent how many people you see are walking around numb?

89 to 100. I mean, we're all, most of us are. I mean, I think we're probably numb. Have some level of overriding or numbness, like whether it's from work or asshole boss or that our neighbor who's too nosy or whatever, that we feel conditioned to not have a full emotional expression with, to like process all of that. And so we just kind of shut it down and that shutdown layers over time. And the onion that we peeled away.

Before- oh, the onions that were bumping.

Up against- the onions that were bumping right against each other that peeled away to reveal more of our self and feel that connection. Those layers get put back over time if we're not in a safe place, if we're not emotionally processing all those things, and then we get back to shallow zone without the spark. And that's when people come together.

You can spark in the shallow zone. In the shallow traumatized, yeah, building resentment zone. So, how do you think that you've learned to avoid the trauma tangles? Yeah.

So one of the things I had to learn how to do personally is, like, being more comfortable with what we might deem as boring. Because...

In a human or in a situation.

Or in a relationship, so it's like, it's not a sparky spark. that might be actually okay. And a deeper, like, impassioned spark actually might emerge from what we were calling boring. If we're used to the, like, going on roller coasters, then simply going for a really beautiful walk may seem boring. But it's that beautiful walk that's more sustainable and we can keep going on it where it's harder to keep going on the roller coaster. Physiologically, Yeah. And, you know, I think for myself, like, I'm really going on more dates and I'm not looking for that ultimate spark. I'm looking for... That's the shift. Can I invest? Do I want to invest my energy, attention, and emotion? Do I get a multitude of things from this? Like, did I get a couple laughs out of this? Did I get to feel or reveal something more in myself? Did I get to know them and something that they don't often share? Did we get to have an interesting experience? Like, those things will build more of the ultimate spark early on. We'll build more of that ultimate spark that we're looking for that's sustainable. And I know it's not the trauma tingle.

Yeah.

And I went on someone with a date with someone recently where I was like, oh, this is my trauma tingle. Like, I named it because they started like saying, oh my gosh, I'm so into you. And then the next day they were like, oh, I'm not sure. And the next day they were like, I'm back in you. And I just said, no.

See, that's when we know we've actually made steps towards healing patterns. And you're like, oh, I didn't go, I didn't take the bait, I didn't go back into it.

When I had it noticing.

Yeah.

When I was like, I'm not afraid of losing you, because I'm more afraid of losing myself.

Yeah. Which is the greatest act of self-love to be able to make that change.

And before, how I knew it was the drama dingles is I kept losing myself.

Wow. Look up for her. That's good. This is really, really, really inspiring to notice, to see our behaviors and to be able to change them. We're not stuck in any way. We don't have to be stuck. It's really just like awareness, attuning, paying attention to how people make you feel, what you value, how you wanna feel with somebody. Like I said, what I started to say is we felt great. I feel like if you meet a new friend or a new job or a new place and you have a feeling that feels good in your body, we should be looking for that in partners too.

So yeah.

When you're feeling this, probably time to walk away.

Bye, roller coaster. Bye, chasing love. Hello, sustainability.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, oh, you know what else? One more thing. The boring thing was interesting because, you know, I've, I have, I have a lot of experience with boring.

Yeah.

And I think that boring, meaning that I have a hard time with that. But there's also, there's like, I want the kind of boring, I think that there's the boring that comes with stability. No, roller coaster. We go on walks, we take pottery classes. There's the boring with this person is just, doesn't make make any effort, effort, doesn't do anything shallow, nothing interesting. Like, yeah, that's boring too. That's a different.

I felt that was a personal thing.

I had to say to people. Important. Oh, okay. Well, thank you, Dr. Scott Lyons, for being here. This is so fun. That was a fun little roller coaster of a show. We got the, we got the, can we have the spark? What's the spark about? What's the healthy spark? Don't let it be a trombone tingle in your pants. Let it be the good kind of spark. Let it, and how to keep it sustainable and maybe even F the spark, because there are other ways to create a more sustainable, healthy, loving relationship that actually can go the distance and feel good in your nervous system.

Yeah, the intensity. Let's roll on into intimacy.

Yes, I love that. More intensity, more intimacy, less intensity. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to sex with Emily, if you love the show, please like, subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok and X. It's all at sex with Emily. And I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sex with Emily.com for free guides, articles and more ways to prioritize your have a question about sex dating or relationships call my hotline 559 talk sex that's 559-825-5739 or leave a message at sexwithemily.com ask and hey was it good for you email me anytime at feedback@sexwithemily.com. i'd love to hear what you're thinking.