https://www.listennotes.com/e/bcb0559b70aa425884b11cd8884c8566

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Let me ask you something. Do you ever feel like your desire has just gone quiet? Like your sex drive took a long nap and forgot to set the alarm? Well, you're not broken and you're not alone and you're definitely not the only one who thinks arousal is supposed to just magically happen. Well, today's episode is all about busting the myth of spontaneous desire and exploring what's actually possible when you create a new, deeper relationship with your body. I'm joined by the incredible Pamela Madison. She's a sex and intimacy coach, founder of Back to the Body, and true pioneer in helping people go from erotically numb to erotically alive. Pamela and I dive into what low libido often means, hint, it's not hormones, it's usually boredom, how to tap back into your turn on, and why the right kind of touch can be not only erotic but profoundly healing. And yes, we're talking about her retreats. Two words, pleasure demos. You'll want to hear this. Plus, we answer your questions from how to feel more confident in the bedroom to whether you can really show up for your partner when you're not orgasming to how to have incredible curvy girl sex. Before we dive in, I want to invite you to set a quick intention with me. So listen with an open heart. And if this sparks something in you, you know where to find me. All right, let's get into it. Tell me about your Back to the Body retreats and then I want to hear about how you also work with couples. Because people always, we've talked about it, Pamela, but I think it's great to hear from both of your voices about your retreats.

So we've been doing Back to the Body retreats for 10 years. They're very unusual in the world in that they're immersion retreats for women. We do full body exploration for the women. It's not surrogacy, it's not secret intimacy. We're now calling it the Back to the Body method. which is based on the lineage of sexological body work, where our practitioners remain clothed, they have gloved hands when we work with genitals. It's a place for women to drop in and really explore their own bodies as opposed to having to please a partner. What is it to receive and not be in service? What are all those things that people are talking about? What if they have vaginal pain? What if they maybe have orgasms or maybe they don't, they don't really understand it. Maybe there's more. And what we have found is that women who come to our retreats have a very definite outcome. They feel better about their genitals. So they have genital self-esteem.

Yes.

They are more likely to initiate sex when they get home and in their lives. We know that women who come to our retreats reduce body shame, they reduce trauma, they're better able to ask for what they want, so better communication skills, and they have learned how to name their desire. And the one thing consent, of course, they've learned how to negotiate consent. And I think one of the most beautiful things this is to do is that they heal relationships. and competition with other women. And women come for seven days, many women come for as many as five retreats. We are running retreats during COVID They have to be vaccinated, they have to show up with, we're like, there's so many lanes. You have to be vaccinated, you need a day three COVID test, and then we're gonna test you. At the retreat, we have purchase tests and we COVID test. So, you know, we've been running safely, God willing, through COVID. And what I've been seeing, Emily, is A, the women asking the men to come, which is very different than when the men ask. Yeah. When the men call me and say, I want my wife to do a retreat or I want to do a couple's retreat, it's often very hard to bring in the woman.

Kind of threesome, too. When part of trying to get the part of a threesome, like, it gotta be. It's gotta be her idea.

So what?

It's her idea.

Yeah.

Whatever. Her and say it's a good idea.

Yeah. The men come and they're really brave. And the men have had lots of different feelings around this. Do you want to talk about some of the reactions we've gotten from the men?

Yeah, I think that, you know, some of the. The. The points have been kind of twofold. Right. The men are like, What have you done with my wife? Like she is a whole new human, which is accurate for some of the women we've worked with. It's like from the time we've started with them to now, they're vibrant and alive and sexually curious and it's like an energy that's different. And so when their husbands come, it's like, I want a piece of that. I want a piece of the cake that she had.

I want what she's having. So just to back up, I was on one of your retreats and I want you to explain for a minute the sexological body work part of it. And I want you to explain that if you could just give an example of how women like the before and after.

So, sexological body work is an active receiving. So it's not like a traditional massage where you're laying there and being touched. It's really active. So the practitioner is really involved in asking you to move and be present, to be aware of your breath. to be aware of your sound, encouraging sound. Often, you know, these things sound small, but often they're discouraged. So it's encouraged to be quiet and keep your voice down. And, you know, we're really encouraging people to speak up and ask for what they want and explore through my hands, basically. So those can be really important. The other thing is we keep our hands gloved. It can include the full body, so it can include genital touch. It doesn't have to, but it can. We do explorations in sensation. We do explorations in different body parts, so genital mapping, body mapping. We've done explorations and we do explorations in fantasy and role play. Role play and games, how to bring play into your sex life. Some of the practitioners, actually most of us, know some element of rope bondage. So we bring in elements of BDSM and tantra.

It goes the gamut and then it begins with a woman actually connecting to her vulva and identifying her arousal. And so there's a whole menu of where we go, but we start really simple. So if you feel like, wow, this is too advanced, for me?

No.

Every woman starts where she is. And we start with just connecting you to your arousal. And what does that feel like? And how do we use erotic energy? And this is a kind of a matriarchal society. Each woman has a female safe port, and you're in sisterhood where there's no competition. And the men are supporting. And so they are about seven days long. You're teamed up with one practitioner and one female safe port to this full transparency. So nothing's really hidden. But your sessions are private. And then always keep their clothes on. They don't get in contact with clients after retreats. We have very, very strict ethical boundaries, and that's really, really important. so women may start here and then, you know, when they're done with us, they're like in the orgasmic Olympics.

Right.

So back up, can you explain the mapping, the body mapping? Because I think that's a really important part of this practice, because it does start with a get to know your vulva, ground in it, take a look, look at a mirror, but you go a little bit further than that with the mapping. Can you talk about that?

Well, if we were to, I could do a whole hour of genital mapping with someone, right? And that might look like you know, naming the parts of this is your outer labia, this is your inner labia, this is your introitus to your vagina, this outer part is your vulva, this is your mom's pubis. You know, a lot of times people don't know the names of their parts.

They don't, they don't. I see that.

We didn't learn, right? And so even identifying internally, you know, this is your G-spot, Also, how does it feel if I put a little pressure to the left or to the right or up or down?

And it's slow. Like it's a slow, really what you're talking about is like you're sitting there with a glove, you're doing it, but there could, there could be a mirror and you're looking together and you're actually showing so they can become more, I suppose, connected.

And understanding that your clitoris has legs and that every woman is built differently. We're like very advanced plumbing systems. And that the clitoris, as delicious as that little bump is, is just the tip of the iceberg and helping women find their clitoral legs. And women will say to us, Emily, like, they have no libido. They don't have any desire. And there's lots of reasons for that. One of the reasons for that is they're bored. I'm just going to name it. It says, Bored. I am so bored. like you may love your partner, you may, you know, just, I can't masturbate one more time to whatever it is. I'm just over it. And so what the retreats do for women who are feeling that they have low libido is it actually kind of wakes them up a little bit, takes them out of their comfort zone, puts them in a safe place, and all of a sudden they're erotically alive. And, you know, you don't always get to tell your partner what you want.

You don't even know what you want or how to tell them either, right?

I think that's a big point.

That's a big, yeah.

Across the board, men, women, it's like, what do you want to discover today? What do you want to explore? I don't know. And then it's like, well, here's a menu of all the things. And they're like, wow, I didn't even know that X, Y, and Z existed or were an option or that I would be interested in that. And so sometimes it's just having the menu and also the permission and the space to try it.

And.

Also like the possibility of being like, I didn't like that. It's like, okay, moving on.

That's a big part of it, I think, is getting women when they initially come is to, first off, so we're saying it's like an introduction, get to know your body, but then also just the act of saying, I like this, I didn't like this, because so much of sex for many women or many vulva owners is it can be more passive or we just say yes to things because it's easier than saying no, we think. and so we don't even know what we're feeling because some of us go numb. We just check out of sex. So this is like a lead process of really being connected and embodied. So you aren't just giving up your power like that. You are able to speak up. So that is part of the big practice. Right.

To get, like, Epicurean touch. Like, you know, people who actually know how to touch a woman's body. Right. So you learn. Oh, that's what that feels like. How do I ask for that when I when I get home. And then we do, you know, as you know, Emily, we do live demos, which are huge for the women, because then they get to see what's possible. They get to see how you can move. They get to see how you can ask for what they want. And, you know, I would love to go back to the whole idea that sexuality, male, female, together, apart, is an evolutionary process. And me, in my after 50, I'm the hottest they've ever been in my entire life. I mean, I am using testosterone, which I didn't take for libido reasons. I took for metabolic reasons, muscle tone. And my body was changing after menopause. So we can talk about that. What's true on testosterone, and I take a pellet, it's put in the flesh of my tush, scared me a little, but it was like no big deal. and I've been having. I've been having sex dreams, Emily. I've been, like, having orgasm in my sleep. Wow.

I mean, how much are you taking? I've taken the pellets, too.

Have you? I don't know how much I'm taking. I imagine, like, not a lot.

So the pellets are bioidentical hormones that you put into your body with a pellet that lasts about three months.

Yep.

And then you go back and get it again. So you're having. And you're having sex. You probably have it. I'm surprised you don't have sex dreams, though, just because I guess you're. All of your work is sex, so. Maybe sometimes you're just dreaming about food.

Exactly. I've dreamt about sex, but I haven't had orgasm in my sleep.

No, I haven't either in years.

That's amazing. Now having extraordinary orgasm in my sleep, also my sexual appetite. How would you describe it, Court?

Strong.

I have a strong sexual appetite that just keeps growing. along with my clitoris. So my clitoris is growing a little on the testosterone, and I, it's like having a brand new toy.

It grew. How long have you been on it? It grew. Okay. So it grew in just a little.

It's more prominent and which means I have more surface area.

Yeah.

To play with.

So, yeah, it can be. You got to go to your doctors. You got to get your test out. You got to get checked out. It's not for everyone, but I think, yeah, I think that we just, and the problem is for women, you have to go to your own providers, your insurance might not cover it. It can be more expensive. And I'd love to see more options for every woman. But speaking of every option, so what does it take like from the retreat? So going back to that, like you always talk about women being more embodied, which they are, but how do you how can people connect this on their own? Like let's say they can't come to a retreat. How would you explain the feeling like from where people start? and where they are now for like the goal is to become embodied but some people don't even really understand that. And then maybe we could give some tips for what people can do on their own to get started.

You know something that I encourage my clients to do just outside of the work that we do together is to practice breath work, to practice things that where they can emote sound. Also I really love like ecstatic dance or five rhythms dance which is like a really organic form of movement, which is not about partner dancing, it's really about self-expression and finding your own movement. I really encourage that for everybody. You really kind of are there and you're like, I'm finding myself being self-conscious of my movement. Can I allow myself to move the way that I want to move and I feel? And that's something that we encourage on the table. as well. It's like if you were to move organically to my touch, you know, like what would that feel like? What would that look like?

So it's kind of the opposite of what we talk about a lot is performative. When we're more performative in the bedroom, like, I'm going to move this way because I think that's what my partner wants. But we're saying that what we're talking about here is this deep grounding into what you actually want, what your body needs and what your body's reacting to in that moment rather than being in your head and thinking what would be sexy right now, what my partner would want, which is a total reversal for reversal for so, so many, so many of us.

And there are a lot of tools, Emily. So I know they're going to put up the link to our website.

Of course, we're not done talking.

Yeah. If they're set up for the newsletter, they will get a free video instruction on how to do Lotus Lift meditation. So you know this my signature thing? It's like name drop. Oprah has featured it twice, two years in a row. And it's really simple and it's a really great way for women and men because you've been using it with men. Yeah, I use it too.

Did I do the Lotus Lift? Did I redo it? Yes.

So you took your hands, you cupped your vulva.

Oh.

And you rocked.

Oh, I love the Lotus Lift. Yes.

Back to back.

And back to back with a partner, but you can do it on your own. And then feeling your arousal, feeling your embodiment. And I will coach people through it. I have members of our community, women do Zooms together. And so I work with Deepak Chopra's three soul questions. Who am I? What do I want? what's getting in the way. And I. And it's a beautiful way to start your morning. Get arousal moving. And you get arousal moving in your body. You are fighting depression. You are fighting anxiety. You are moving serotonin, your love hormones. You want to feel embodied. You don't have to masturbate and have an orgasm. Okay? It's just cupping. Women don't know the arousal principle. Men don't either. That just. being in arousal is an embodiment and is creative life force energy and it's a wellness tool. Your sexual energy is wellness. And so you can get those tools online. We're giving them away.

Okay.

We also have Back to the Body Practitioners, which people can buy a series and they can work online through Zoom with a practitioner if they're not ready to come to a retreat. Great. Okay.

I love that you're providing that. It's backtothebody.org. yeah.

There are lots of resources, lots of writing. You know, we're living in a different time. People find their way. What's exciting, though, Emily, is that our Santa Fe retreat is sold out and our Mexico retreat is sold out. And our Costa Rica retreat only has a couple of spots and our privates were sold out through March 2022 for private retreats with Courtney and I. And so plan ahead because guess what? April comes sooner than you think. Right.

So maybe they'll start with that's why I want people to get to you, but the Lotus Lift, I remember this, I forgot that's what it was called, but I was sitting back to back with a woman and I remember it's just the cupping and like talking to you, it's like literally connecting to your vulva and thinking, or you could do it with your penis. You could do with a penis partner and a Volvo partner could be sitting back to back in the practice of with your clothes on. So I always say, get up, masturbate. But yeah, sometimes you don't even want an orgasm. But I get it, too. Like, I was talking to someone yesterday who said to me, oh, but I, it's usually 23. But she's like, I never want to orgasm. And I don't care. Or she's never had an orgasm. Yeah, that's part of it. But I don't want to masturbate. And I don't want to. I said, but I love the Lotus lift as, like, an in-between because it's really like we walk around sometimes not loving our bodies all day, feeling like it's another thing on our list, but just a cup it.

I'm cupping right now.

You guys can't see me. And you say, like, good morning. Like, this is. And feeling that, because it's. It is energy. It is our life's force. It is our creative Center, which I think a lot of us don't. So it's truly that. Like, we're asking people go from people calling in, like, how do I have anal? But then you're like, have you ever really connected or taken a look at your own genitals?

And it's such a powerful practice. I think that piece, Emily, is.

Is really big.

Right.

Where. Which is like. And we've been seeing this a lot, which is like desire and congruency with the body.

Talk about that.

Yeah, talk about desire and congruency with the body.

It happens with couples, but it happens with individuals where, you know, somebody's like, I really would like to have anal, or I really want to explore this extreme BDSM scene. And then it's like their body is so far removed from that fantasy that you know, there needs to be a ton of other work, which let's start with connecting with your body first, because if you have no connection to your body, none of that is going to resonate. You're gonna, it's gonna hurt or you're not even going to feel it for that matter.

Right.

So that piece, I think, is really important, is to be able to connect with your body. And, you know, how do you do that? Sensate focus is a really good exercise to do that with, and that's just like. you can do it yourself. I feel the sensations in my hand. Right. Just rubbing your hand.

This is Sensing Focus, which is a. Yeah. Classic practice of just classic practice. Yeah.

Yeah.

But people don't know. I mean, we went to school, but, like, yeah, just literally. What am I feeling right now with my middle finger rubbing on my, you know, forefinger on my other hand? Like, what does. And it's so hard. It's a presence, and it's like, oh, that does feel good. I mean, that's how you start, and. true. What you're saying is that so many of us, when you just said, we don't feel anything, I think we should normalize that too, because so many of us don't feel anything during sex. It's like a numbing or it's a disassociation. And so I think that's a lot of this work is that we're talking about is that you don't have to go through life like that. You can wake up your body at any time.

You know, the other thing we were talking about saying on the couples work for a moment, What we found with couples too is that they pay out of each other's no bank.

Oh, I love this. Tell me more. Well, now we can go to couples.

Yeah.

No bank.

Well, I'm sorry. But it was an incongruency. So like I could say something like, well, I think that you don't like, I think that you're frightened of hurting me and you don't want to spank things.

Right. And I go, I'm not afraid of that. I'm down to spank you. Let's try it.

You're down to spank me?

Yeah, let's try it.

Right now?

Yes.

So first time on Sex With Emily. So what's true is that we have stories about what our partner likes and doesn't like, and what our partner is willing to do and not do, and then we have shame around asking it, and then what if... And so having a sex educator there to facilitate those conversations. Open up tremendous doors for couples to actually find out they may have the same kinks. They may actually have the same desires.

That is, yeah.

They had no idea until they were at a retreat and often it will be like day three.

It's always day three.

Day three is the day.

Day three is the day.

It is the day.

Yeah.

Everything breaks loose and everyone cracks open. And that's why immersion is so important is because People have to relax into this container. They have to feel safe. And so it's beautiful and it's really beautiful to see couples, no matter what age you are, but focusing on midlife couples and we just say 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, having a brand new, maybe after 30 years of marriage, having a brand new relationship. with their sexuality and that it's possible. Yeah. I mean, I want to get into.

That is so, I think so many of us just resign. We're like, well, it's never going to happen. It's been 20 years. We've been together 30 years. It's not going to happen. So I love that you do focus on this, this age of like your 40s, 50s. I mean, that's where your work started too, right, Pamela, when you had your, your, your breakthrough in your book, which I love, Shameless, how I ditched the diet, got naked, found true pleasure, and somehow got home in time to cook I know your book has been transformative for so, so many, so many people I know. Okay, so I want to go back to what you're saying. So we just covered the part about the couples coming in, like they clear the no bank. They're like, I didn't know you wanted to be spanked. Oh, okay. Cause the fact that you even get them there is great. So they work with someone that helps them tease out what they actually want. I know we always send people to our yes, no, maybe list on our site, which I think has been helpful for so many couples. And that's just a document that lists a bunch of, you know, yes or no's or maybe. So I'm thinking when you're working with couples, you clear out all the, you try to clear out the resentments or the no's and then do you help them then kind of, I guess it's different for everyone. Is there any commonalities though between these couples that you found kind of reconnect? I guess one of them is probably they both have to want to because sometimes there's couples where one doesn't want to and one doesn't.

I think that's like the biggest thing is you can't show up to a couple's retreat if you don't want to be there, right?

No.

And it makes our work easy, or I'm sorry, easier, when the people that are there are like, we both want the better of this collection of people, right? We want to be a better couple. We want a better sex life. We want a better relationship. There's a willingness to try, a willingness to discover. Without that, it's kind of pointless.

They also learn, honestly, by watching Courtney and I, How, because we teach as a couple. So how do couples, even though we're not like real life couples, how do couples communicate? How do they fight? Like we're there together for five days, sometimes eight days with a couple. Sometimes we get annoyed over the dishes. Of course.

Right.

So there's also like a modeling of how do we talk with each other? How do we negotiate with each other? How do we make it sexy? you know, a lot of couples, they may have explored polyamory or swinging or other things, but a lot of these couples haven't.

They haven't. I would say the majority of them that show up probably haven't. They probably are your been together. They had great sex in their 20s and they had kids. Things happened. They're in their 40s or 50s, and they're like, now what? We both love each other. I don't want sex. She doesn't, you know, right? So it's those kind of things.

And so you're yet to play in the energy. of two sex educators who are helping the game along. So we do a lot in games and we teach a lot in play and we play with them. Now the couple is interacting with each other. They touch each other, right? And we play alongside them. It's almost like two-year-olds with building blocks and we encourage them and stimulate them with our words and action and sometimes or a lot of times, you know, I or court, depending if it's women leading or male leading, because we take turns. Like, who's the active receiver here? Who's the passive receiver here? What is, you know, how are we playing this game?

So you're like their coach. Are you saying like when they're like, they're actually having sex or they're doing something sexual and you're there like as their coaches? Like are you telling her to breathe? Kind of like a, right?

Case by case, but we have done that, you know, like kind of like the whisper in the ear type thing.

Court will be like the angel on the man's shoulder, like not like really right there, but in and out of the space and offering support or will be doing a similar exercise side by side. Maybe the man really wants to learn how to do really good genital touch. But, you know, only knows what he knows, right?

He's been going, looking, digging in there, looking like he's looking for change for the last 20 years. Exactly.

Right. And this is woman doesn't know how to encourage her partner. And so I'll lay next to the woman, like with some space, right? And let's say courts teaching the partner doesn't have to be a husband. And, you know, it's pretty graphic work. I mean, I'm kind of, you know, The women there are pretty vulva open.

Got to be, yeah.

And court is teaching and the man is following. And I'm also coaching her, how we breathing, how are we telling him, how are we telling our guy that this feels good, how do we move? And so it's some monkey see, monkey do. It's for couples who haven't been around other couple energy, it's very exciting. but in boundaries because we're not going.

To be having-- no, we're not having to force them.

We're not having to force them. All the boundaries are intact. And of course, if they need our help, we will glove up and show a partner how to do something that will stop whatever's going on. You know, partner, girl partner or boy partner or non-binary partner, you know, needs support. We'll stop, wash our hands, put on our gloves and go help. But usually it can be done.

Yeah, I really like what you're saying here because it's like this, it just came back to this is one area of our life where we, you know, people probably listening and go, oh, that'd be so shameful or I couldn't imagine my partner doing that. But it's like why we see how we, I think everyone listening this show knows how important sex is. You probably wouldn't be listening if you didn't think there was something to learn. But yet with sex, there's nothing really available for that kind of coaching. We think I should just magically know how to touch a vulva, how to touch a penis, how to have anal, all of it. But where would you learn? And we all know that porn isn't going to be the way to teach. So I mean, I really appreciate the work that you're doing and just thinking about how many people could really benefit from this work once they get past the shame and oh, I thought that I should know this because I'm a man or I'm a woman. No, we're not taught this. In fact, we're taught misinformation.

It's a little bit like, you know, when you go to the spa for the first time, and you're like, oh, I gotta be naked with all these people. And for the first five minutes, you're like self-conscious about it. And then you forget that you're naked because everybody else is naked. It just kind of falls away. And I feel like it's a little bit that with us and our work, it's like there might be some reticence. And even with me, I'll just speak for myself. Sometimes I get nervous. I'm using my body as a teaching tool. she's using her body as a teaching tool. There's some scratchiness around that with people we're just meeting or even still people that we know really well.

Because many of our couples come back again and again and again, just like the retreats have a 97% return rate. The back to the body retreats, the couples retreats, the same, where the couples are booking far, far in advance. This is like putting them in a whole new way with each other in their relationship. And I was remembering, Emily, that people learn in different ways. and some people they learn visually, some people learn from a book, and to have somebody there to talk to. So like after a session, we'll do group process, but also like take the male identified partner off and do a private talk with him and I'll talk with her, and we process and we find out the obstacles and to support the couple in coming together, so to speak. So it's been a journey and I think, you know, the resources are beautiful and what's even more beautiful is permissioning more and more people. And I'm tired of hearing that I'm all washed up and I have no libido or my husband and I or my wife and I or partners that we're We're over and, you know, 50 we're dead is a lie. It's just all lies. The biggest lie ever told is that people over 50 don't have incredible sex and multiple orgasms. And if you want a little bit of help in our medical profession that it's available for you. And it's an exciting time.

It is an ex, I mean, because of all what's available for us now.

Yeah.

And you guys, this work is legal, correct?

Yes. Well, we're not touching, you know, like we're not having sex with our clients.

It's one way touch.

It's one way touch. And this is sex education.

Yes. Hands on sex education, which makes so much sense.

Right. And with the couples, the couple is with are there together. And it's legal for court and I to touch each other. Right. And so using ourselves as teaching models when necessary, that's perfectly legal. And the couples are touching each other, and that's perfectly legal. And also maintain certain boundaries that some couples really want, you know, to keep. Yeah. You know, there's a lot going on out there, and I really encourage, I mean, your show is so amazing and so groundbreaking in how it is showing people opportunity. And I want them to know, all your listeners to know that the opportunity doesn't just belong to the 20 year olds and the millennials are getting older. Let me just let those millennials know, you are aging up, guys.

They are, right?

And the boomers are still booming. We have a large population of people who have a lot of pleasure potential.

Lot of pleasure potential. This really is about pleasure. How do we look at pleasure as a society? And how do you encourage people to look at pleasure and to put more pleasure into their life?

I mean, I think first of all, our society, Western society, United States for that matter. You know, we really encourage people to find their pleasure, to find their success, to be in their joy, and then not too much.

Not too much, but don't talk about sex.

Not too much joy because that would mean that you are selfish or narcissistic. Narcissistic, right? And it's so it's this kind of mixed message like, you know, you go after it, but be humble, You better be humble about all of it, right? And so it's like, well, how do you be humble and seek your pleasure at the same time? It's like they're a little bit opposing identities.

They are, yeah.

And I think that's like a real cultural thing that we have to deal with in the United States specifically and in the West. But I think it's noticing that that is a cultural script. choosing it anyway.

Yeah, the same you think about it because pleasure potential, I think we all have so much potential for pleasure and we just don't. And we have ourselves off. Self-imposed ceilings.

Yeah.

You guys, Cort and Pamela, I would love you to help me answer an email from a listener. This is Diana 33 in Santa Fe, Mexico. Two bedroom retreats. Sold out because she could come. Maybe she'll go on the waitlist. Hey, Dr. Emily, I'm wondering how to get comfortable having sex and feeling sexy as a plus size woman with a man who healThy. I need some advice. I want to be present and enjoy my body, his body and sex in general. But I find it hard to not focus on the weight, extra weight and my body perceived imperfections. Also looking for good sex positions for women. This has been holding me back from exploring sexually and having sexual experiences and I'm ready to shift it. Now, I know, Pamela, that you we all still have body things. It's going to happen through our lifetime, but you've gone through a lot of this. You spoke about this in your book. You do live demonstrations. and you're confident. So I've seen Pamela. I've seen a lot of Pamela, and it's beautiful. So tell me, Pamela, how would we advise Diana here?

Oh, I want to take a big, deep breath. You know, holding our self-love and our self-acceptance in one hand and our shame and disappointment in the other hand and just knowing that it's not one or the other. yeah, it just isn't one of the other. I want to speak about in general terms. So he's becoming, like, the Rope artist of the century over here. He'll say that.

Trying. I'm doing.

He's trying.

I'm studying.

He's studying rope. And so last night, he was showing me some ties and some things that he was doing. I was really curious about it. And court had me, like, opened up, tied up on a four poster bed, and I was. My legs were just like really up there. I mean, I was, how would you call it?

Spread.

I was spread. Okay. And I was curled up, which meant that I couldn't play to the male lens. I couldn't flatten out my belly and stretch out and sort of soften my rolls. Okay? and I was very aware, here's the self-acceptance artist, right? I was very aware of these three very large rolls of fat on my belly while he was being magnificent and showing me a wonderful experience. I was very aware of my belly fat. And at some point, I just sort of had to acknowledge, okay, we're having a little belly fat shame. Okay, there it is. Hi, belly fat. We've had this conversation before. And then I had to go, well, he doesn't seem bothered by it. He's not bothered by that belly fat that's there. And I'm having a good time and obsessing over the three roles was taking away from the possibility Am I really experiencing the pleasure that my body had to offer? And so then I had to put it down.

So does that make sense?

Yeah. So what you're saying is let me walk this through.

So in the moment, it wasn't, you didn't say hello, you didn't say it out loud, although you could have with court and it would have been fun, probably would have brought a laughter. But in your mind, you were like, hello. And then it was like, because we often, even if people are worried about their bodies, they're worried about a million other things in the bedroom. And so I'm always kind of speaking about mindfulness. But I love what you're saying here, that I love that your examples Pamela, I know you were a kindergarten teacher, right? Yes. I know you started, I always think about that. Like, this is why she's so good at talking to everybody. But it's like, it's like, really, it's like, hello. Hello there. Okay, I'm gonna put you away now, 'cause Cork's doing something here. And I feel, this is my time for pleasure. You actually had like a conversation with yourself. And that in that moment, you were able to go back and be embodied, be in your body, and receive this magnificent gift from this beautiful man who's just there for your pleasure, not looking at anything that you're looking at, you know? So, and again, it's not like you You won't have to do that again. Like maybe tonight something could happen, but it's that process. When you were saying you hold it left hand, you hold in one hand, you hold acceptance. And the other hand, you might, your criticism, they're always sort of there, but if you could get that acceptance voice to be a little bit louder and kind of trump the negative voice, more often you'll have a little bit less struggle, but it never goes away is what we're saying, right, Pamela? 'Cause you've been talking about this for years. It doesn't ever, it doesn't go poof. But that's how you could quickly move through it, I suppose, is by saying, I deserve this moment of pleasure. It's about me.

Nobody was running screaming from the building, okay?

I also wanted to just say from my perspective and just to answer this woman as well, can you allow your partner to enjoy your flesh?

Okay, tell me more about that.

Can you not deny your partner their pleasure in your flesh?

Right?

So I, you know, I can find pleasure in a lot of different types of bodies. And some of those bodies are fleshy bodies. And some of those bodies are thin bodies. Some of them are female. Some of them are male. I can find my pleasure in that, not just with my eyes, but my hands. And so to encourage people to find pleasure not just in what they're seeing, and also to see past just what's in front of you, but to see the overall connective experience. Right?

Right?

I didn't see belly. I didn't see your belly rolls.

See?

Right, but I love what you're saying here about that moment that was again, this goes back to our society. and maybe it's that so focused on a certain body type and that we have to be perfect and it's all the time we spend on the external, but in the moment there with a partner, like her, right, you're saying to-- what we're saying here to Diana is allow your partner to really relish and celebrate and love all of you. And that comes back to receiving, like allow that to happen as well. And I think it's 'cause we assume, like you said, Pamela, he didn't go running from the building, I think as women, we often assume that, oh, they're gonna notice it from our bodies to like, oh, I have a razor burn or I have a pimple or they notice my left boob is bigger than my right. We think of all these things and it's like, who decided that we're against this perfect standard? I mean, I guess it's what we're seeing, you know, all media, I mean, this is the oldest, you know, the oldest debate, but it still lives on and it pisses me off. So more people need to hear this and take this in and say like, There's also the opportunity to let your partner love more of you. It would be love ourselves.

Emily, when your partner, like when he just said that, I thought my body take a breath.

I saw you, yeah, I saw you.

My body just sort of went, oh, that feels good to hear. So having your partner verbally adore your body, you know, and to say, You know, it is just so sexy having you just spread open like that. Like both your holes are like right there. And that's what I'm seeing. I am loving to squeeze your flesh right now. It's so sexy in my hands and grab that big fat ass or those skinny bony asses of yours. You know, whatever you've got, right? Is it if your lover can offer some adoration?

I think that, and that's also something- it's so powerful. If it's wanted in Back to the Body sessions or in the private sessions that we do.

We do that.

We do that. Like, would you like me to reflect how I see you? Would you like me to give you words of adoration?

Right?

And so that might look like, you know, your vulva is so full and so pink. It's beautiful. Do you know, like, how beautiful it is?

Right?

It can be that. And that's really important to hear. from a partner.

Like you were, this is so fucking...

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that.

That's fine. No, you're fine with that. That even made me relax. You're not even looking at my Volvo right now. And what it made me think is...

But that's not messy or icky or pervy.

No.

Okay, so it's context. So if the context is set, now I'm going to talk about like retreats and a practitioner. If the context is set, this is your practitioner, your educator, and he says, would you like me to offer reflections? You're in a context, he's not like seeking something from you.

Yeah.

Not gonna take from you. He's just offering to be a mirror. And so that you can start to feel what it feels like. to have your body adored because most of us don't believe it. And so we need practice in receiving adoration. We need practice in receiving love. We need practice in receiving gifts. We are so good at giving. Yes. Both of us are so good at giving. I can tell you, Emily, you are so beautiful. But then if you were to say to me, Pamela, you look so great. I might go, oh, thank you, Pamela.

I just, you do look great. I was waiting till the end to tell you that.

But, you know, we brush it off instead of like having a moment and saying, well, thank you for seeing me. I actually feel pretty great today. You know, we don't, It's always like, that's a great dress. Oh, I got it on sale. Not, that's a great dress. Yeah, I spent money I didn't have because I wanted to do this hot in that dress. Like embracing a little bit our joy, our own generosity, not just for you, but for ourselves.

I think that's such a great point there because we brush it off. It's like that humble thing, like don't be too out there. We want to be, don't be too bragging. You got to be more humble. You got to, so how do you say thank you? If I say thank you for this compliment, then they're going to think, I'm full of myself. So it really is that dance. And what I like, what I like what you're saying here too, is that we, it's okay to ask our partners for that, that we need adoration, but then we also have to learn how to take it in. And I think we all need it. And I often say to people when they say, well, I want my partner or I'm nervous my partner goes down to me and I'm afraid they don't want to be doing it. And if you actually with someone who wants to be doing it, I always say, tell them, say, if you're going down your partner, tell them that, and this is equivalent of that, but I love, what you guys are saying is sort of the equivalent of saying to your partner, babe, I'm not going anywhere. Lay back. I have all night. Because the second we know that our partner actually wants to please us, like, oh, you're gonna go down on me all night. Well, then I'm here for it. So it's almost like if I saw you, like, audibly, vis vis, viserally relaxed when he said that. So I just think the power of words. And not saying this is for. We're giving you guys a lot of options. They could talk about it. They could go to retreat. They could just decide that they're going to. share some affirmations could all really be what could be the thing that helps couples get unstuck and reconnected.

And you know what, Emily, whatever they choose, you have to do it.

Yeah.

Like you actually have to do something. Like we'll run webinars. I'll see the same woman. Like she'll show up to every webinar in the same sweatpants and the same easy chair with her same story that she needs 17 pounds to lose. before or the right moment or, you know, when Mars isn't in retrograde, but he always is. And so there is always going to be that obstacle. And so it's when you decide that I've wasted enough of my life. I have wasted enough of my life not having what I want. And it's going to be risky, it's going to take time. It's gonna take some money. It's gonna take being a little uncomfortable to find the pleasure I want. And then you do it. And it's like, holy, holy moly.

You gotta do the work. You gotta do the work. People aren't willing to do the work. Well, I have another question here. One more question from a listener. This is from Abby 33 in Illinois. And this is just reminding me what we're saying here. She says, Dr. Emily, I'm having a hard time having an orgasm.

33.

I've never had one in my life. I would call myself a people pleaser, a giver, and I always want to make my husband happy during our lovemaking. It worries me that I'll never experience having an orgasm I hear people talk about. My question is, if I never have an orgasm, is it okay to be content in being a giver instead of desperately wanting what I need and crave? So she's never had an orgasm. She's a pleaser. But I would tell her, you gotta do the work. Have you masturbated? Have you How would you guys answer that?

I think she answered her own question at the end. She said, Is it okay to give this up? And obviously she wouldn't have asked that question if she felt that it was okay. I think it's not okay for her. She's identified that she wants this. She desperately wants this. And so it's not okay, period. She should ask her partner to help her discover that. and maybe invite her partner to have a session that is just for her.

Right.

Just for her pleasure. Like at their house, is that like just say, Babe, tonight's all about my pleasure.

All about me. Go down on me. You know, you make love to me, but it's for me. I'm directing you. I'm asking for what I want. This has nothing to do with you, ma'am. You are my tool tonight.

Right?

That's a leap. That's a leap though. She's never had an orgasm. I think that's where every, everyone listening to this, if you, if it's, oh, if you are a pleaser and you feel like the sex is never about you, it's totally okay to say, how about tonight's about me and tomorrow's about you? And that's a lot of the work that you're talking about on your Retreats and in the work that you both do. Pamela in court is allowing people to, to kind of get, to embody and to actually experience the feeling of receiving without feeling like, oh, but let me do this for you. Oh, let me. Now that you did this for me, let me. No, it's like, no, it's about receiving, receiving, and not having to give.

You know, our work is somatic, right? It is body-centered and it's so easy for me to say, just ask your husband to, you know, and it's like, you know, there's a ton of, I'm sure, body stuff that's connected with emotions. And so to even say those words can be really challenging. And so that's why sometimes it can be really helpful to have someone to go to someone to coach or to go to a back to the body retreat where it is just like, we are here for you, period. This is not about me. I'm here for your exploration. Like we're doing, like you want to have an orgasm, let's figure out how to do it.

Well, this is what, yeah, this is the work that you do. So maybe Abby can, I also wanted.

To suggest that everyone, everybody, all you listeners buy a massage table. I own stock in none of it, okay? Get a massage table. Start with giving each other out of course. Start with giving each other massage. What a massage table allows you to do is have full access to the body. You can climb on a table, you know, all kinds. You can have great sex on a massage table.

I have a massage table now and it's amazing. So I'll have like a partner come over and he's like, I'm gonna set up the massage table while you finish work. And then I'll come out and I'll have the massage table and the oil and the candles. I'm like, great, you know, and just receive. It's literally a game changer and it's- Get it out of the bedroom. Yeah, keep it out of the bed.

Right.

If you can get a massage table, it really helps you stay focused and.

You have more access. I love that idea. Something really intentional about that. Like, you have to set it up. You have to make the space for it. There's something like intentional. We're creating this ritual space for ourselves.

Yeah.

Really important for couples.

Yeah, I think that's all great. And with Abby, I think what you said there about it being a somatic experience, there's so many experiences that we are keeping ourselves from. So she might think, I could never say that. Having shame or maybe it's something from childhood. We don't know, but there's a lot of layers that people have to go through to be able to have that conversation. But I guess what we want to say to Abby is that we don't think it's okay to be content being a giver instead of desperately wanting what you need and crave. No, we are telling you that it's time. for you to, you wrote into the show. That's a great first step. And I mean, I don't know what you're really, I would even have this conversation with your husband, maybe even show him, maybe play this for him. Because I'm certain, Abby, that if your, your husband wants to be a good lover to you and wants you to have orgasms and pleasure. And I can't imagine a husband reading that and saying, oh, yeah, babe, it's totally a contempt for you to be a giver. Let's go. Now, if that's what he says and you play this for him, then we need to talk offline and Pamela will fly you to a retreat for free. Just kidding. I'll pay for it. But I'm just saying, like, don't you think that her, like, to me, that's the ultimate. I think that she's probably thinking maybe he won't want to, or he's gonna shame me for it. I don't know.

Men or women, like, I know it's hard. Partners want to know what you want. They want to know how that you're being touched. When I'm touching a lover, I'm wondering now, is that the right pressure? Does this feel really good? How can I make this feel better? And to teach couples how to have that conversation while keeping it hot. Because it could be really hot.

It's a hot experience of getting to know it, getting to discover each other's bodies together.

Oral is actually a really great lesson. This is how I like my cock sides. this is how I like my eaten, right? This is how I want you to do it. Let's play. Let's play Discovery.

Right? Right.

If you think about it like that, like we're just gonna have playtime, right? It takes a little bit of the pressure off of it. It's also like we're gonna be playtime for you tonight. Let's see what you like.

Yeah, have fun.

I wanna know. You give me step-by-step guidance on how you want it done tonight. It's all about you. like, that could be really sexy and fun. It doesn't have to be this, like, no, to the left, to the left. You know, if you agree on it ahead of time, it's a fun game. It is a fun game.

We've got the lubes here. Let's play. We're gonna find your orgasm, you know? Hey, let's go. Rather than, like, he's feeling like, oh, I've never given you an orgasm, you know? So all the issues and all the things that come up, make it fun. It's a shared experience. Pamela and Court, I have to ask you each the five questions we ask all of our guests. quickie questions. Okay, so you reach and go back and forth. So first I can start with Pamela. What's your biggest turn on quick answers?

I want to say right now it's court.

Me too. And you Pamela. Okay, well, court, what's your biggest turn on?

What's my biggest turn on? Right now, control.

Okay. What's your biggest turn off?

Lack of attention.

Biggest turn off.

Deodorant.

What makes good sex?

Being willing to play.

Being embodied and having time.

Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships?

It's gonna get better.

Same.

What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

They can have the best sex of your life at any age and they can start at any time.

The things that scare you the most are the things that are probably going to be the most exciting.

Love it. Great answers. Thank you both. Okay, tell me where everyone can find you and we'll put this all on the show notes.

They can find us at BackToTheBody.org and you know, even though Court and I are booked right now through March for private, I have other teams working so they can email and if want to be willing to plan for the future because I recommend it. They can check that out, sign up for the newsletter, find out about the retreats. We are accessible. You can find me at @thepamelamadson and @thecourtbox. I'm sorry, say it again.

@Thecourtbox.

@Thecourtbox.

Yeah.

And there's a whole team of people who want to support you and give you lots of information about what's available now from your home or get on an airplane with us. Just get that to me.

Thank you both so much. Thanks for all the work you're doing. That's it for today's episode. wEpisodE. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like, subscribe and leave it a review wherever you get your podcast. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok and X. It's all @sexwithemily. And I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sexwithemily.com for free guides, articles and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. Have a question about sex dating or relationships? Call my hotline 559-Talk Sex that's 559-825-5739 or leave a message at sexwithemily.com/ask and hey was it good for you? Email me anytime at feedback@sexwithemily.com I'd love to hear what you're thinking.