Living Outside the Binary, Ending Relationships in COVID and BDSM Play

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A bratty boy with a femme dom. That dynamic really gets me because in a way, I have a lot of top energy. But it really gets me off when like someone tells me what to do.

I've been contemplating ending the relationship or I don't know what my next move is.

You know, bdsm, bondage, discipline, sadomasochism, you know, just could even mean handcuffs and blindfolds. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

Vico Ortiz is a non binary Puerto Rican actor Drag king plays a character as the straight whisper on these thems, which is a super hot web series on YouTube right now. It won awards, top trans creatives and stories to watch in 2019. So that's these thems. Hello Vico. Welcome to the show. Hello.

Hello, Emily. Thank you so much for having me.

Yes, of course. I'm so glad you're here, like to, to the rescue. We really, we have a lot to cover, so if we do, I.

When you said the whole like four months without sex like that really, that really hit me, right?

It's been a whole thing like tell me about. Because you are legendary now. So my producer Marita was like, we gotta have Vico on because Vico has all these Stories and has successfully been meeting people.

I mean, I guess, like, I sort of successfully, in a way. Like, I've definitely been out and about. I wasn't planning to be honest. I pre Covid, I love meeting people in person. I'm very. I'm always going out to an event. I'm always at an event performing as a drag king. I'm always meeting people. And I love the organic, you know, Etta Bar ETT dance. If I see you and I like you, I'll come over, you know, and say something. But then Covid happens and you're like, I can't do any of that at all. So how do you go about it? And the first, like, couple of weeks, I was like, this is good. You know, maybe I just need to, like, just chill it out for a little bit, like, be at peace with myself. But a little bit after, you're like, I'm getting really horny. Like, I'm, like, watering my plants and one of them touches my hand and a weird. And I'm like, oh, that felt like, oh, what's happening? Like, I'm very sensitive to everything. And in the queer world, especially in la, even if it's like, la, and it's a city, it's so small. And I was so reluctant about, like, going on Bumble or Hinge or Tinder, because I just know I'm going to see my friends in the app and I'm just going to be, like, swiping my friends, like, being like, hey, friend, like, what's up, homie? How you doing? And in the very beginning of COVID I didn't want to date. I was just, like, in a very fun dynamic of, like, friendships that I was, like, you know, opening that, like, physical intimacy with. And it was openness and transparency that, like, we were getting what we wanted, but also, like, not having to worry about a relationship. But then again, Covid, and you don't know when this is going to end.

It's never ending.

And part of it is, like, when you're stripped of, like, you know, when people, like, get blindfolded, all of your senses get heightened.

Yes.

So in a way, you know, we get stripped of physical intimacy, and then all the other senses get heightened, you know, so it's like, okay, is it a good thing that I'm doing this, or is it because.

Or am I, like, craving that intimacy? Is it real? Right.

Exactly. But, yeah, my first couple of weeks after having my, like, monkish moment where I was just like, okay, I'm just going to chill and then wanting to, like, crave that, like, that desire, that want. I opened up Lex Alexis, a queer dating app that's just personal ads. And you just, like, put up a personal. There's no photos. You can add your Instagram account if you want to.

And I love that there's no photos, like, because I think that's gotten kind of crazy. And that's how it used to be. Like, whatever, 30 years ago, when do people use to put stuff in the newspaper? Like, it would just be the column, right? And you just have words and back of a paper, like the Guardian. So now. Yeah. Like, okay, what does the person have to say? Well, you know, they have to be able to read.

I loved it because it was that. Because it's like you were able to. Well, I guess on my end, I opened the app with the intention of just sexting. I don't want to, like, get to know nobody.

No emotional level.

I just want to, like, get a steamy sext. Here, I'll read you what I wrote on my.

Yeah, because I need to hear, like, you're legend already. So tell remember, because I think sexting. Can I just say this? Like, I. I've had moments where I enjoy sexting, for sure, but it is an art. And I do think that we've had to rely on a lot of other resources right now because we can't meet. So I'm always encouraging people, listen, we can't run out of meat right now. But I kind of like that the quarantine has slowed down, making everything. Believe it or not, this is coming out of my mouth that we jump right to sex. Sometimes we jump right to intimacy when we don't even know the person. Maybe you want a relationship and you're like, how to get caught up in the sex. So now we have to get to know people a little bit more or sexed and. Or just have conversations on FaceTime. So anyway, I love that you're an avid sexter, but let me tell you, I'm talking to you real quickly. This is Vico. Ortiz is with me. You can find Vico on. What's your Instagram?

Puerto Rican Ninja. And the same N for Puerto Rico. Rican is the same N for Ninja.

So just one N. Okay, check that out. And you can also find us on our Instagram. We tagged you. Carry on.

So, yeah.

So again, in the very beginning of quarantine, I wasn't really wanting to connect with people. Like, really. Like, I wasn't down for, like, the FaceTime Zoom thing. And the whole idea of meeting somebody, like, through the quarantine, like, was like a no go. So I went to Lex and wrote a personal that said.

I want to make you feel desired. Hot, wet. I want to taste you with my words, and I want to feel you with my thoughts. I'm an enby mask presenting Latin queerdo here to serve you. That, like, so good was just the amount of people that were, like, super down to just, like, boom. Some people got it immediately, and they just sent me a message being like, I'm wearing this and like, I'm here. And I was like, great, awesome. And some people that were emailing, messaging me stuff that's like, hi, I want.

To get to know you.

I was, like, just ignoring that because I'm, like, not here for this.

But the.

But then the amount of people that were, like, just going, how many Your.

Hands going up and down. Like, there was a row, like, you had a scroll and scroll. I did.

It was, how many people out? Because the ad stays there for, like, 30 days. So, like, every day I was getting, like, 15 people, like, liking it and, like, commenting on it and whatnot. The first, like, day, I was like, ooh, yes. And I was like, here for it. But then it got really overwhelming, and I had to, like, make a document for. With people's usernames and, like, the style in which they fucked. Because obviously we all have different ways that we want to, like. But it got overwhelming. Cause I was like, I don't want to all of a sudden, like, send, you know, someone. Okay, I'm, like, pinning you against the wall, and I'm choking you while I'm inside of you. Well, and then that person actually wants to be, like, loved, you know, like, making love to you and, like, in a different way. And I'm like, oh, no. So I made a page with, like, usernames and styles so that, like, I would be able to keep up. You know, I was making essentially personalized queer erotica. Like, in some cases, I was, like, being the romantic Latino that was, like, doing all these things. And then, like, another one that was being the sub. It was a very interesting dynamic back up.

So I want to know this. I understand, like, being a switch and being into so many different things because that's what makes the world go on. I think most of us, we opened up what's possible. We would find that we are into so many different people, events, activities. So I'm with you on that. However, is it more like, can you really be, like, the daddy one day and you're A sub or what are you in your heart? Like, what do you really want? I'm just hearing pleaser in you because they liked you before. It wasn't just like that, but I'm just, I'm curious, like, are you getting your needs met? That's what I'm feeling.

No. 100%. I definitely am a pleaser. In a day to day. I had really. I have a very fun dynamic with being a bratty boy with a femme dominant. That dynamic really gets me because in a way, like, I have a lot of top energy, but it really gets me off when like, someone tells me what to do that pleases them. Like, it's like a little bit of like, I'm not so much of the one that's like dominant, but I like someone doming me and letting me tell them that I'm happy. Like, that kind of dynamic.

Absolutely.

I'm here for it. My incline most of the time is like, go in the very, like, love making incline. But like, if I know that we both had developed a BDSM dynamic, then I'm like, okay, like, yes, let's talk about this. And then like negotiate and then see how. What feels good.

But this is all through the app. So. And you have all these people and you have not met them. You're not gonna meet them. Cause we're still in quarantine. It's not safe out there. Especially, I don't even know their cases.

I don't even know their phone numbers. I don't know nothing. I just know their usernames, of course.

But. But are you getting turned on? Oh, yeah.

I mean, the first couple of days I was like, super turned on. But then it became a job. I was like, whoa, I need to organize myself when I'm sexting. For me to write good, I need to imagine exactly what I would be doing in that scenario. I can't just like write something titillating and call it a day. Like, I want to really give you that experience of like, okay, so I'm here and my hand is going this way, and then like this other hand is going here. I'm actually really trying to like, put myself in that position. But then when I'm like going back and forth with several people in one, I'm like in this position, but then the other one, I'm like, backwards now. Like, and I'm in.

Yeah. You don't want to be like, pegging the person who just wanted to be loved and kissed. I get it.

Yes.

Right. This is a lot of work. I'M exhausted hearing about it. So I want to talk about your character. You play Vero on these thems, which it's a YouTube. Very different.

Vero and I, although we're very similar. Definitely. Vera, I feel like is more. Who knows, actually, maybe Gretchen wants to write Vera to be a kink aficionado, in which case I'm like here for.

But what I liked was that you spent your time teaching a newly out person all the terms and rules of identity and queerness, like identity versus sexuality. And so it's still a new frontier for many of us, for many people, how you do this on the show, but how can you help my listeners understand this? People hear this, they want to do the right thing. They're not sure where to start.

The way that I think it's easier to describe sexuality versus identity is that sexuality is who you go to bed with and then gender identity is who you go to bed as. Does that make a little bit of.

Absolutely, yeah. So meaning, like non binary meaning you're not thinking that it's not just a male female.

Yes, non binary. So I'm outside of the societal, like binary description. Binary meaning man, woman, non binary meaning I'm neither. Now, non binary gender, non conformant, gender queer, gender fluid. These are very similar terms. And to each person it could be a variety of things. Not everyone that's non binary uses all pronouns. I specifically like to use all pronouns. Like, I like to go literally back and forth between all three because that's how I feel in terms of like my gender fluidity. Like, also gender identity and gender expression are different as well. So like, even though I might be wearing makeup and might be wearing heels, like, that doesn't make me more of a she, you know, that doesn't. I'm still non binary and I like to still play with all three pronouns. So like, the way I express my gender doesn't have have to like necessarily match my gender identity based on like societal, like right terms. So like, so who date?

What gender are you dating? Specific. All genders.

All, yes. So I say I'm pansexual with lesbic tendencies. But yeah, the same way that I've like, I've come out as non binary, I feel very comfortable in the fluidity of my gender. I have met people that are like non binary, trans femme, non binary, trans masculine, you know, of all the spectrums. And I just, I don't want to like limit myself into being like, well, I'm, I'm a lesbian, which is totally fine. Like, that's Totally. Okay, that's like what you want. But in my case, I definitely want to keep exploring and keep like meeting new people. And I think honestly, like, personally having physical intimacy with trans and non binary folk has been amazing because there's so much like, there's so much communication prior to when you're being physically intimate with somebody. Before coming out, it was like, for me, sex was like, penis goes in vagina. And then like now sex has changed so much for me. And it's so. I feel like it's just more beautiful and more vulnerable and comfortable and sexy. Like I feel taken care of when I'm coming in with somebody. Like before just jumping and like grabbing tits or like going in my hand between the legs, I always ask what are some trigger places that you don't want to like, be touched? Like, because there are some people that like have an pre op or post op or whatever. Like, you want to make sure they're being like, taken care of and you care about, like you want to worship their body in the best possible way and they want to do the same thing with you. And I love that.

Well, I love that too. And it's so funny because so many people just are not comfortable. People who are married for 20 years are not comfortable talking about their sex life and what they want. And what I would love is everybody get to the place where you're at that it's just like, we're talking about, we're going to dinner. Are we going to have Italian food tonight? Are we having Mexican? Are we cooking? What kind of sex are we having? What are you into? How are you feeling? Let me go get something out of the washer and dry. I'll be back. You know, it's like, I think we make it so uptight and we get so concerned, but that's exactly how it should be. Like, what are you into? Where do you like to be touched and then be so much more satisfied and fulfilled? I think absolutely.

And you're not so much in your head, you know, like once you're like, once you have established all these things, like you're not like halfway through being like, oh my God, I just touched this. And like, I don't know if you've already like established all of that. You've gotten all the questions out of the way and not just with like, what makes you feel good or not good, but also like STIs and a lot of good stuff. So it's like, let's talk about that.

Let's talk about for a minute. Like, if someone tells you, do they tell you, like, I have herpes, but I'm taking daily suppressant or I have hiv, literally.

I'm like, great, fantastic. Thank you so much for telling me. Like, what are things that let me know if you have something coming up? Or like, what are things that we can do now that will make you feel good and desired? Because I feel like a lot of that pressure comes in, like, oh, if I say something, they're not going to desire me anymore. And I think this shouldn't be that way. You know, I still desire you. I just want to desire you the way that, like, will make you feel comfortable and beautiful and sexy and hot. So I much rather have that conversation be then like all of a sudden be like, oh, shit, what just happened? Like now, the conversation afterwards, if we don't have that is like, way worse.

Yeah, you eradicate awkward sex, is what we're saying. Because so much of the sex that we have, it's just awkward. It's weird. We worry, like, all of that could be avoided if we just got comfortable with this. And it's a practice too. It's like, it's not like we were born with disability or we would all be doing it and I wouldn't have a job, but I don't know. We're so far from that. But I feel like you can learn from people, like, how to just ask for it. Ask for what you want and ask what you need in a place where it feels safe. Now, some people don't know too. Like, people have never felt safe expressing it. You know what I mean? They just haven't even thought about it. But if you're with someone who shames you for it or is awkward about it, that's not your person. Like, why would you want to get your needs met?

Right?

So, okay, so what are you going to do now? So now you have all these people that you're dating and so you know sex yet you haven't any sex.

But yeah, no sex. No physical sex. At least. Like with somebody else. I've definitely have partaken in self pleasure aplenty, because that's all I do that and eat and watch Netflix and TikToks.

Right. We can talk about that too. Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break. This is Sex with Emily. I am Dr. Emily. We have great cast and callers ahead, so hang out.

Okay. Let's talk to Tony 55 in California. Hi, Tony. What's going on?

Hi, Emily, how are you?

Hi, I'm good, thanks. For calling.

Been in a relationship for almost 15 years and 55. She's a little bit younger than me. And I've been contemplating ending the relationship or I don't know what my next move is. We've invested time into this relationship, but it just seemed it's not going in the right direction at times. Kind of bickering.

Consistent basis. Sex went from, you know, fairly consistent to almost, you know, I think the last time we did it was three months ago. I find her sexually attractive, but she's very conservative, whereas much more liberal in the bedroom. Just from my past and the way I was, grew up, whatnot. And I've suggested counseling, and she's fiercely against it. Just, you know, I'm hesitant to try and force her into it. Consider just going for my. Myself and my own sanity to find out if. If I'm going. If I'm nuts or.

No, you're not nuts, Tony.

I always consider like three people in a relationship, you know, you, me, and us.

Exactly. Well, I think that's us, Tony. Yeah. I mean, have you. Have you. Besides the therapy thing, Tony. And I think I'm always a fan for everybody. For you, your partner, together. But tell me, have to her specifically and said to her, you know, let. Let's talk about what's been going on lately. I feel like there's been some tension. We haven't been as intimate. Have you. Have you asked her, like, what's going on? How you feeling about our relationship?

Turns into. From my perspective, and I may be wrong. I don't know. It just. It turns into what I feel is a very contentious conversation. I think she immediately goes on the defense and starts pushing back against me that, you know, sometimes it's all. Couples go through this or, you know, you did this, you did that. You know, I see it going down a rabbit hole, but it never gets anywhere.

Yeah. So you're having the same. They're having the same argument over and over.

Yeah. Having been in this cycle for years doing this. There. There are good times in there. But. Yeah, I'm starting to look at photos and stuff and just go like, you know, associate. Oh, we had an argument then.

Yeah. That's not. So this is what I always say this should be. Your equation is like, you want it to be more good than bad because everyone's gonna have bad days with their partners. They're gonna hate their partner sometimes. Right. Like, you know, they're like, I hate my partner. You know, I love him so. But right now you're telling me that it Actually is more, you know, more bad than good. And it's been that way for a while. So you're right to be thinking about this in a different way. I always think you really can't leave a relationship until you know that you've tried. You've really tried everything. And so I think there's some more steps here. But I hear what you're saying too, that it's like, I'm just frustrated, I'm almost out. But I think the other way you talk to her is it's. It has to be at a time when you are relaxing, hanging out together, you're not stressed out. I like to think of halt. You're not hungry, angry, lonely or tired. And you're not, you know, and you're just sitting. You said, you know, I really want to talk about something. And I've been thinking a lot about our relationship and my feeling is that we, you know, you want to use your own feelings, that we haven't really been connecting. And I know that there's two of us in the relationship, but I really think that it's gotten to the point where it feels more bad than good, that there's more tension. And, you know, she might say, oh, that's not true. You always say that. You say, you know, this is. I'm trying. I'd like to have a different conversation with you right now. I feel that it's. I'm not sure that we could keep going in this way. I think a solution would be for us to go see a therapist. And honestly, if she says, no, no, that's crazy, it's only for crazy people or whatever she says. She's like, well, I don't. You could ask her for her suggestion. Well, what do you suggest now? Listen, you've been together almost 15 years. This likely isn't a one time conversation. This is an ongoing, like maybe over the next, you know, few weeks, hopefully she'll hear you if you do it in a different tone. Right. Is that something you've tried before? Like in a different, like it's about both of us. I think we want to be great lovers to each other. We both want to have really healthy lives. This doesn't feel great to me. How has it been feeling to you lately? This is how it feels to me. How has it been feeling to you? And you just keep staying calm and curious. That's why you remember, Tony, you are calm and you're curious and you're compassionate. Like you just, it just helps. But if you don't feed into the fight the same. Argo, you do this. Well, you said that that goes nowhere. But if you change, it's called homeostasis, Right? We change our partner, change around us. So you change your response, the argument's gonna change. It won't have its fuel. So what do you think about that, Tony?

You know, I'll try anything. I mean, I don't relish the thought of ending the relationship after so long and, of course, getting back out there in the world and, you know, starting over again and from many different angles, you know, but, yeah, something has to change.

I mean, it has to. You can let her know that I want this to work. I love you, I care about you. I really want to make this work, but I can't keep going like this. In the same way, we have to try something different. We have to. And that's the conversation, Toni, it's like. Because I hear it in your voice, but I think unless you really try, and hopefully you can get her to go and listen, here's the thing about therapy. People think I'm committing them to therapy, and you should go for the rest of your life. For so many couples. And this is. This is not just me. This is studies and other therapists. You just like couples who go to therapy. You are fast tracking every issue you have. You're going to realize in a month, if you go every week for a month, once a week for a month, you're going to know so much more now than you figured out in the last five years. You might realize, like, oh, this was the problem. Now we're going to move forward with something healthy. Or you're really like, oh, we're in a stalemate like this. This can't work. Like, you just. It fast tracks everything. So I would try that. I mean, I don't have any other solutions for you right now. That healthy communication, and keep going back to that. But I am here every night. So what I love is if you have a conversation with her, you get stuck, you can call me back. All right.

Okay. That sounds awesome.

Okay. Of course. Let me know how it goes. Tony, thanks for calling. Okay, you guys, relationships are challenging. They really are. And if we haven't spent the time in our relationship to learn how to have healthy communication, you really see the impact that it has in resolving arguments big and small, you know, having healthy conversations. When something gets. Like, when it gets contentious. I didn't ask if there was contempt yet, because when it gets to contempt, saying nasty things, name calling, you know, that's when we're in deep water when you don't want to get to that point. You don't want to get to the point where you're hating each other and you're just awful. You want to get to the pre. You want to start right away in the relationship. What I hope is you are in your early phases. You're having healthy communication, but it's never too late to learn how to actually talk about what's going on in the moment, how to resolve conflicts, how to hear each other. But the thing is, if you don't know how, I mean, don't beat yourself up or we're not taught how to do that. It's not modeled at home. That's where we learn most things. And growing up, I. We didn't have any conflict resolution. We didn't talk about anything. It was just like, you know, my family just sort of looked the other way, and we didn't talk about feelings or emotions or resolve things. It's like, you're the kid, I'm the adult. Done, you know? And then how would I go into an adult who knew how to communicate? And I wasn't in my earlier relationships, I certainly was not best communicator. I was avoidant, and I didn't want to resolve conflicts. I thought that there was a conflict. It's just time to end the relationship. Because relationships should always be great. They should always be amazing. That's what we see in television. Oh, and my neighbors are so happy. I see them holding hands every single night. It's like you don't know what happens behind closed doors. And I, believe me, your neighbors are not as happy as you think. And we know what happens in the movies. None of that's real. There's no foreplaying movies. So it's okay to even say to your partner, I know that we don't have the best. Even now, maybe you're just fighting about. Maybe you're having disagreements about something, like where you're going to go on a road trip this summer, too. But it's gotten tense, right? That's the same skills you need to. Solving little conflicts are the ones that you're going to need when you have bigger conflicts and eventually get to the point where. And I promise you, this happens when you learn how to. Maybe it's once a week. You're like, Tuesday nights, we sit for a half hour and we talk about whatever's on our mind, and we each talk and we each share, and that's when we start to resolve them. Once you've learned these Skills of listening and reflecting back to your partner what you heard. Like, I, I. Okay, so I could say, yo, I really want the bedroom to be green, right? And then your partner says, oh, I want to do blue. And I say, well, I think green reminds me of this example of, of, of warmth and safety. And I like to feel that way when we're in the bedroom. And now I say, yeah, but you, you know, I'm. Are you saying I'm not warm? No, I'm just saying that's how I feel. But in healthy communication, your partner would say, oh, they would pair it back to you and say, so what you're saying is you would like the room to be green because it makes you feel safe and healthy. I would say back either, yes, yes, you're right. And then they'd say, okay, now I could say, no, I didn't say safe. I said settled or what? And then you just sort of. You get to agreement, and then your partner gets to respond and say, I hear what you're saying, and so you want to be safe and healthy. And then you offer something like you're like, okay, well, I hear what you're saying, and I really want you to feel safe and healthy. And let me tell you why I want blue. And then I would do the same thing, and then we would. Then you're not fighting about. You always get your way. Because every couple has that argument. Every couple has that place that they go that he was just referring to Tony was referring to this place they go where you're like, I can't get to the actual argument because we have our routine. So what I want you to do is learn healthy communication skills. There's a great course you can take online now called nonviolent communication. You can listen to these shows, all of these things. How do you communicate to a partner? You want to listen, you want to lead with feelings, and you don't want to put your partner on the defensive. So all I'm talking about is a skill set. Like everything else we do in our lives that are important, our jobs and being a good parent, being a good friend, it's all the same thing, but we just aren't modeled it. We're not bad, we're not wrong. We just didn't take time to figure this out. And that's why I also love therapy, because a great therapist will teach you skills on how to de escalate conflict and how to get to a quicker resolution. And then from there you start to. You're like, oh, yeah, we got this I mean, it's miraculous what it could do for many couples. Or you realize there's things you'll never agree on. You've grown apart, maybe your values have changed. I mean, whatever it is, you find that out because the therapist is like your mediator. They're not taking sides, they're just there to help. We're going to take a quick break, but stay tuned for more Sex with Emily.

Okay. John 64 in California. Hey Dr. Emily. I came across your site and thank you for opening this forum. My wife and I have just very recently discovered a BDSM lifestyle. Who knew? No. We're a monogamous straight married couple about 20 years and do not envision that changing. Although we thought we would be identified as switch in our play, I knew almost immediately that I was the sub and that was all I cared to be. So when he says switch, that someone would be dominant and some would be, you know, submissive and then they would switch. I held off telling her as long as I could, three days, lol. Because I thought that she too expected and wanted to be the sub. She's naturally deeply caring and submissive. Contrary to this, I've been very dominant in every aspect of my personal and professional life forever. Large, corporate executive, etc. We get you here. We get you, John. We're still a bit awe at what this has opened up our lives. Extensive communication, a broader and more fulfilling sex life, and a deeper mutual trust than we've ever experienced before. We weren't bad before, but we both feel like this has brought tremendous balance to our life beyond our sex life. My question, how do we expand our social circle to find and socialize with other like minded couples? We aren't interested in changing our monogamous lifestyle or sharing our actual sex play with others. Just a safe means to socialize with persons of a like lifestyle and life experiences. Well, John, I love this. First of all, I love that you guys have opened up your play to, to something a little bit different, little kinkier for 20 years. This should be. I, I hope that, that there's people listening who've been in relationships and you think this is it, this is how we're always gonna have sex. I'm gonna be on the top, she's gonna be on the bottom. We're gonna have missionary, we're gonna roll over, it's gonna be over. It's no he 64, 20 years together and they realized that there's a new lifestyle. And not only did they decided they wanted to be into some, you Know, bdsm, bondage, discipline, sadomasochism, you know, just could even mean handcuffs and blindfolds. It doesn't have to be a whole dungeon. But he's saying we did something and we mixed it up. And then even went further to say, and I wanted to be submissive, which it's very common for as far as the this lifestyle goes, that there are men who are dominant everywhere else in their life, right from, you know, the boardroom, and they've got all the things going on, but in the bedroom, and they want to be submissive. Even then, that was able to work. That was another layer he went through. So I just want to congratulate you, John. Thank you for your email and also to answer your question. Okay, well, the great news is, is right now there are some places. Well, I don't mean right right now during COVID because everything's a little more challenged. But as far as bridging that gap between, like, how do we find like minded people? There's a few places I can send you. There's one called this is amazing. It's called Hashtag open. You just spell it out, hashtag open. And it's actually a dating app, but it's for single people, it's for couples. It's literally for people in every type of relationship looking for any kind of thing. Lgbtq, non binary, trans. I mean, there are everything on there. And so if you check out Hashtag Open, you could put a profile up there and you can sort of say, looking to socialize for people, you know, who are like minded. And so I think finding someone on an app right now. I even was reading during COVID that there was like people having play parties on Zoom. And so that might be a great place to find that. Also another site that lists a lot of different kind of events, like this is FetLife, that's Fet Life. So those are some places where I think you could just start looking and finding people. But another place might be Reddit. Now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like Reddit has a lot of sub communities of people. I don't know if they have groups on there, but I just was, there's a lot of sex stuff that goes on there, but if you want something that's a little bit more people in you who are like minded and not just talking about it, I would say build yourself a profile. Hashtag open, tell me how it goes. I've heard so many great things. And then FetLife. The good news about that is I think you once you find a good couple that you you know some people you like. This is how I always found once you find someone you you really get along with or you like, whether it's socially or professional, you tend to meet their friends and it tends to grow from there. So I love it. All right. Business with Emily Find me Monday through Friday from 5 to 7pm Pacific on SiriusXM stars for even more awesome sex talk calls and segments. It's a great time. You can find more@sexwithemily.com sxm also follow me on all social media. It is Sex with Emily across the board. Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Facebook Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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