Love Rules with Joanna Coles

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Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes they call them in a bygone day. Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend? Cause my man E here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute. A girl's gotta have her standard. Oh my. The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean? Like laundry, it shrinks. Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh, my God, I feel so good. Being bad feels pretty good. You know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, go to sexwithemily.com because it's a party there, you guys. We upload every day with new podcasts, new stories, blog posts, everything that's going to help you have better sex and relationships. I love when you subscribe and comment on itunes. It really helps us with the show. And I read all of your comments. I really do. And also sign up for our newsletter because it's awesome. I know that we. You guys tell me. You've told me. Emily, you give great email, and I feel really good about that. And no one's ever said to wait. You were wrong. I was bummed. I signed up for your newsletter, so please do that. We appreciate it. Join me on social media, guys. Across the board. It's all at Sex with Emily. I'm very excited for my guest today. I have Joanna Coles, and she's the chief content officer of Hearst Magazines, which basically means that she controls the content for all the magazines that you basically know, love, and read. So Cosmo Marie, which used to run Cosmo Magazine, Anne Marie Claire, and now Men's Health, Women's Health. Right. Owners of that.

Yep. Office Bazaar, Elle, Oprah Magazine, Good Housekeeping, Women's Day. The list is endless and glorious.

It is endless and glorious. And you're in charge of all that content?

Well, the editors are technically themselves in charge. I'm there to help them succeed. It's a fun job.

It's a really fun job. It sounds like a really fun job, and I'm so honored you're here. And she also wrote the most perfect book for my audience. Love Rules, how to Find a Relationship in the Digital World. I also want to mention, though, that you're executive producer of the bold type on ABC's Freeform, a show that's inspired by your life as a magazine editor.

It is, and it's a really fun show. It starts again on June 12th.

Congratulations on that.

What was really exciting was the social media coverage of it. People just really got into the show and then just started a drumbeat of when is season two? When is it happening? So Freeform, we're like, we're doing season two, we're doing season three. So we're very excited, and they're Shooting as I speak in Montreal. In fact, I was just talking to Melora Hardin, who plays Jacqueline Carlisle, on the way here.

So it's kind of based on your life as a.

It's loosely based on my life. What I wanted it to be was an enthusiastic show about women in the workplace. So there's a great female boss. There are three female friends who support each other. They're not all tearing each other down. And my experience of women in the workplace has been largely incredibly positive. I've only had good female bosses. And I hated the idea that women in popular culture were always presented as beasts in or, you know, always presented as monsters in the office instead of actually helping each other.

You know, it's so true. We talk about that a lot around here, too. You can see that I have a lot of women in the office, and I know that that's a thing, but I just. I can't. The toxic energy of women being like that is just something that we don't. I would never accept or anywhere. Well, I appreciate.

Well, I think a lot of the male executives like the idea of women being at each other's throats and love the idea of toxic energy around women's friendships. But as women know, actually it's those friendship that keep them going. But in my business, magazines and fashion, the trope has always been the Devil Wears Prada trope that you have this monstrous boss and everybody else is sort of bullied. And it just wasn't my experience. The fashion world is actually not like that. And certainly my experience, the Hearst at the magazines there has not been like that.

I love that. I loved you. You are setting the record straight. Because I think there's a lot of women who believe that.

Well, at least I'm trying to balance the record.

Exactly. And let's be honest. I mean, there's different. Lots of different offices. There are lots of different scenarios. Okay, let's talk about your book, because I love this book, how to Find a Relationship in a Digital World. Love Rules. And the reason is there's a lot of dating books out there, instructional books over the years, the rules, just telling women what they should do, what they shouldn't do. And what I love about your book is that it really asks women to go inside and kind of do some introspective work about who they are, what they want, their patterns in life, you know, so they can take inventory to kind of figure out before you go out there and start dating, which you still might go out there and date kind of randomly. That's Part of the process, but also just to kind of take a look. Well, I think inspired you?

Well, I think one of the things that's happened is that we no longer feel okay with solitude. And in solitude, that's the time you do the work thinking about yourself. Right. And now we tend to fill every moment that we can, every gap. We immediately reach for our devices and start communicating with friends. And I think that if one took a lot of that energy, or even half that energy and spent it thinking about, where are you in your life? Is this where you want to be? What about writing it down and then tracking your patterns over the course of three months, six months, a year? You would actually end up in a place where you could nudge your life in the direction you want it to go in. And so many people sit around and discuss their lives with their friends repeatedly and relentlessly. And we all have friends who seem stuck and who want to replay the record every time you're talking to them. And I think this is a way of getting unstuck and finding new pathways to meet people. And I did it as a diet book for love because I thought that food and love have a lot in common. We have huge appetites for both. When you have a delicious meal, there is nothing better. And when you have a bad meal, it sucks. And we're all tempted by junk food. But you don't want a full diet of junk food. And similarly, with love, you want a nutritious mixed diet over the long haul. You don't want to just have junk relationships and toxic relationships and hookups, which are absolutely fine. It's an incredibly non judgmental book.

That's what I love, though. It is very nonjudgmental.

Yeah, I don't mind. You do your work, you do what you want to do, as long as that is what you want to do. Your nightmare is doing something that you're pretending you want to do when actually it's not making you happy and then you keep on doing it. And I see that happening with people and I talk to hundreds of people for this book.

Tell me what you found. So I know a lot of that is in here, but was there anything that was. Because after working, working. 20 years in this, in this industry, 20 years as a journalist. Right. There are 20 years in the. More than that. 20 years with. You were at Cosmo and Marie Claire women's.

Yeah, I was. I was at Cosmo for four years. Marie Claire for six years. So ten years in women's magazines. Okay. Yeah.

Ten years in Women's magazines.

Yeah. Which is a long time.

Yeah, that is a long years. Literally. Like really. I mean, that's, it's all sex, relationships, dating. So after all of that, where you really are immersed in women and dating and sex, was there anything you found that was surprising right now?

There were a lot of great question and there were a lot of things I found surprising. Not least that one in five are on antidepressants. One in five said they've been sexually assaulted. A lot of people felt they were drinking too much and didn't know how to stop. And the thing that most alarmed me was that people weren't having fun dating in the way that I would have expected. And nobody, nobody. And I talked to hundreds of women and some men over the years. Nobody talks about falling in love anymore. They all talked about dating. Many of them were on dating apps and many of them were finding success on dating apps in terms of meeting people. But it felt so much more transactional and dating apps, and I'm a huge dating app fan, this is not an anti digital book at all. But dating apps can't be the only solution. It can't be the only tool in your box, the only arrow in your quiver. You've still got to get from the digital bit to offline to have a relationship. It felt interchangeable. People felt that they were interchangeable and a little bit like you would often match on someone. And I likened it also to virtual shopping, that you put it in your virtual basket and then you decide not to confirm purchase just yet.

Just feels good to shop.

Yeah. And that almost takes care of the earth.

All the time.

Exactly.

Right. And I like, oh, I like that Gucci jacket. Oh, it's $6,000. Can't really afford it. Putting it in the car.

Right, Right.

And then the next day I'm like, remove item. What was I thinking? And there's an element of that with dating.

Absolutely. You're just swiping. You're seeing who you match with, what feels good. I don't really want a date, but I want to know there's options.

Right. And you can't really a. You can't tell from a profile and a photograph until you've at least talked to someone on the phone, whether or not they're worth your time. And one of the other things that I noticed happening, and this is definitely, you know, something that's happened over the last five years to people, is that people spend an inordinate amount of time texting flirty texts back and forth with people. They do not know, right. And it is not a way of getting to know people. You think it is, but actually what happens in a computer mediated environment is that you end up filling in the gaps with positive attributes and they may be wrong. So often if you actually get to a situation where you've had, I don't know, 200, 500, 7,000 texts and you meet the person in real life, you think you've fast forwarded the awkward bits of getting to know someone, but you really haven't. You have to start at zero.

You see them too. The chemistry do you feel? How do you feel when you're actually in their presence?

Of course.

I totally agree with you. There's two things here that I want to go back to. Because first of all, I agree. Like the second you meet someone and you match, stop the texting and let them know that you want to pick up the phone. Like make a phone call, even FaceTime. Save yourself so much time.

Like FaceTime is a brilliant idea because that tells you so much, much more.

But you're all about the phone call too though. You're like, let's just nip it in the bud. Don't spend more than a day or two texting with someone or even a few lines. I'm like, if you're interested, let's talk. Let's figure out. Because then you can tell by listening to someone's Voice or even FaceTime if seeing them and be like, okay, is this a connection? No, I mean, you don't have to get ready. You don't drive across town. It'll save you a lot of time. So I love that idea.

Well, and also in the book I talk about emotional calories. Where do you want to spend your emotional calories? A calorie is a unit of energy. Where is your emotional energy going? Why do you want to spend it texting with someone and getting your hopes up that this is a really good connection without making the effort of the phone call. I know that most people would rather at this point shoot themselves in the face than have to pick up the phone, but it's a sure fire way of figuring out, is this person worth your. Worth your calories?

Exactly. I love it. You say it. You need to take an emotional calorie account. So we can also talk about that in a minute. But the thing I want to go back to is why do you think what's your reasoning by women are not talking about falling in love. You said that was.

I think that what's happening now is that people have sex with People.

Often on the first date to figure out whether or not they like them instead of getting to know them and then having sex, be part of the girl. Now, again, no judgments, but it's exhausting. And it's hard to have good sex with people you don't know. And a lot of the time I talk to people who said, listen, we're drinking too much. We know we're drinking too much, but it's really hard to get naked with a stranger when you've just met them. Of course we're drinking too much. And then the next morning, they would often wake up with remorse and feel bad about themselves and have what I call an emotional hangover as well as a physical hangover. And so I wanted to sort of call BS on that and say, this is not sustainable in the long haul. And it is really like going out with a big appetite on Friday night and eating three Big Macs in a row. And you just think, why did I do that? I feel like crap.

It's true. You wake up with, like, a shame over. That's what I call it.

Shame over. Brilliant.

I think it is. It really is weird.

Shame over.

Check themselves. Like, if you have to numb yourself to actually have sex and go out with alcohol, and then you feel really bad about it the next day or next few times it happens, and you kind of know something about yourself. And I love that your book gently guides people. And it's not like you have to be journaling. You know, you can do it on your computer or. I like writing things down. But these questions are so. It just gets you to think, like, did I have pleasurable sex last time? Did I have an orgasm? Was it satisfying for me? How did I feel in the morning? And then you could really stop and go. Is there a pattern here?

Well, only 11 of women say they have an orgasm on a hookup, right? So then you're, well, why. Why are you having the hookup? And are you probably having the hookup because you want some intimacy, you want to be cuddled, you want. You want some action? Again, absolutely zero judgment as long as you're getting what you want and knowing that you're going into a situation where it's hard to do that, it's hard to have good sex with a stranger.

Really hard.

And. And it's hard to have good drunk sex. So one of my questions to people is, have you ever had sex sober? Is this someone that can pass the sober sex test? And I spoke to a lot of people who hadn't.

Hadn't they never had. Yeah, I've heard that too. A lot of friends, especially friends who've gotten sober, they're like, oh, yeah, no, it's so hard for them to start having sex again because they literally have never had sober sex because we feel like the social lubricant even kiss someone. And now I just think it's gotten out of control on college campuses and.

There'S so much binge drinking. And I talk to a lot of academics and college presidents and they're all really alarmed about it. And it is true that it's on the rise. I know that, that, you know, it's easy for journalists to be alarmists, but this really is a frightening pattern. And actually used to be that beer was the top five drinks in America be different brands of beer. And now beer is still the number one drink in America. But numbers two, three, four, and five are all hard liquor. And it's hard liquor hidden in soft fruit drinks. So it's hard lemonade, it's popsicles. And so it's very easy to get drunker than you expect. And in the book, you know, of course I don't say give up drinking. I love champagne, I love wine. I get that it's confidence in a glass. But I say respect your limits. Don't go out of your sort of range. And also the minute you do, when you're drinking with someone, you don't know your red flags, your red flags that would normally be waving, stop waving, and they get blunted. The sort of draft.

That's true. Your inhibitions exactly right.

The draft on them dies and they're not waving when they should be.

Right, exactly. And it's funny because it's alcohol does that you lower your inhibitions. You make choices you wouldn't really make. And then also when you have sex too soon, a lot of times for women, we get attached to the love hormones. And then we can't see the red flags waving in the distance because we're so attached to sex with this person. And so I think it's just best to like, slow things down. Meet for lunch. If you're like, no, I have to drink on a date, I say have a lunch date then if you need to, if you can't get drunk or.

Sweet or go for a walk in the park or do something, go to the theater, do a wine. Or maybe not a wine tasting course, but do a cookery class. Do something together that you have something to talk about. So the stress and the pressure is off the date. You're not staring at each other, frantically thinking, God, do I find this person attractive. You're actually doing something. So even if you don't like them at the end of the evening, it hasn't been an entire waste of time.

Exactly.

You've learned how to cook a lasagna.

Exactly. Right, Right. Which actually, that's not. I've not yet learned how to cook. Maybe I should do that. It's not a bad idea. Exactly. And I love how you use food as the analogy throughout the book. And so also one of your quotes here is pleasure is the fundamental calorie you want to be consuming. And I just agree with you. I'm like reading your book going, yes, yes, I totally agree with you that women do not. We're not taught about pleasure. We know that sex education is abysmal and that to even get women. And I love the provocativeness of how provocative some of your questions are around that. Like, think about it. Did you have pleasure? How did it make you feel just having women look at themselves? So why do you think that is that women don't even know how to. They don't know how to prioritize their pleasure. And I don't know how can we get them to do that?

Well, one of the things that I heard repeatedly from women was that they felt they were competing with. With porn and that men expected them to behave like porn stars. And we know that there's so much porn in the culture now, it's readily available on every television screen, on every computer, on every device. And again, I'm not anti porn. I'm anti porn as default sex education. And of course, porn is shot from the point of view of the cameraman. So there are all sorts of camera angles that work in porn that don't work in real life. And what I heard repeatedly from women was mental. Would start foreplay with sort of cliched lines from porn and expect them to give the cliched lines back. And then wanted them to behave like porn stars and look like porn stars. And they're hu. You know, they don't want to do that. They want to have sex that feels more original and fresh. And if you're trying to perform like you think sex is supposed to be done, it makes it much harder in the moment. And I think women are used to servicing men and sex has always revolved around the male organs.

But that's exactly. So, I mean, I think you're totally right. And I hear from men too, who are like, well, I was with her and she was acting like a porn Star. And it didn't really seem like it was real, and it was a real reaction. So I kind of hear it both ways. And I agree that there's nothing. Not bashing porn, but not a great place to be learning specifically how to have sex. It's not gonna be a tutorial on how sex should happen. It's true. We prioritize men's pleasure. We think that that's. We say yes to things that don't really feel good. We're not really in touch with our bodies. We don't. We don't even know what we want. So going back to the first thing that women won't really admit they want love. If they do, they won't really admit what they want in bed if they know. So they're just putting on these acts. And I feel like I was gonna ask if you feel like that it's gotten more severe over the years, like, over the last 10 years, say, that you've worked in. I've been doing this for, like, I don't know how long we did this. 13 years. I do think that porn has been a huge factor in all of this. But I also think that since I can remember, women just. Again, it's all set up for men. And I just want women to, like, masturbate, take time for themselves, figure out your body, and just comfortable. We've had success in so many other places, like in the workplace and everywhere else. We have these freedoms, but with sex, we still have this. Like, we. It's not okay to ask for what we want. It's not okay to have pleasure.

It's very interesting because in the culture, we're still very uncomfortable with the idea of ambitious women. Right. And I think we're still really uncomfortable with the idea of women who have sex drives. And so it's all sort of hidden and it's sublimated. And in fact, the culture we live in doesn't really like women having desire for anything. They want us to be consumers, which we are frantically. But it's hard for our culture to admit that women have needs and wants other than for children. And weirdly in the book I address. Or perhaps not weirdly in the book, but weirdly, one of the things that I heard when I was talking to a lot of young women was their ambivalence around having children. They didn't dare say it out loud because they felt it sounded retro. And one of the.

I felt it sounded retro.

Yeah. To want children or to want to have a partner.

Well, that's what I'M trying to get at. So, okay, yeah, keep going with this. Because you were saying that they didn't want to admit they wanted love, and you're saying they don't even want to admit they want children and families because it's.

Because that makes them sad. Well, I think it makes them feel like they're trying to hark after some 1950s archetype, which they're not. And we know that fewer women are having children now than they were. And that's partly because contraception is so good and it's widely available and although not always, but I think that women are concerned. And again, we have another dialogue around women's careers than we do with men's careers, that you can't have a job and have kids and do both well. And so as a result, a lot of women say, well, you know, I'm just going to focus my efforts around work and my whole. I have a whole chapter about you need to choose your own best before date. Again, playing off the food. Let's talk about that analogy. But it's. This is something you really need to think about because you do not want to wake up at 45 having decided that you've been in denial about wanting children, and now you do, because the odds are stacked against you being able to have them. And of course, it's difficult to have a child on your own. I'm not pretending it's not. But if you know you want a child, you need to address it because you do have a finite window in which you can do this. And the fertility industries have. Have told us that it's all possible. But again, the odds are against you. It's expensive and it's not great for your health. And again, if you're in a relationship and you don't feel you can raise the fact you want kids, you're probably in the wrong relationship. And this is a really, really important thing in women's lives. And I feel like we've made it sound like, oh, it's impossible to have a job, it's impossible to have a child. At the same time, I'm not saying it's easy. It's absolutely not easy. But if you want to have a child, don't not have a child because of a job.

Exactly. No, I absolutely agree with you. And like, you can freeze your eggs now, which a lot of people are doing.

Freeze your eggs. And you should freeze your eggs when you're younger because freezing your eggs at 38, again, the odds are against you.

Right, right. You can freeze Your eggs. You can. So just. It's really just. And I feel like the thing. The concerns that a lot of women have, like, oh, I could never say that I could never let my partner know that I want kids or that I want to continue to work and have kids, or that I want you to touch me this way to have an orgasm. Whatever it is, we don't feel that it's okay to ask me. And I just want to say if this is striking a chord with any woman here, that or a man, like, there's no time like the present. And I would say that tonight, go home and ask for that thing. Because don't waste your time another minute in a relationship where you don't feel like you're saying something that you're holding back from having the life that you want.

And if you can't say it and you can't and you can't ask for it, then there's a. You've got problems with communication and listen. Communication in relationships goes up and down, right? There are times when you want to hear someone. There are times when you don't want to listen and vice versa with your partner. But you. You may be in the wrong relationship if you can't at least voice what you want. Now, you don't always want what each other wants at the same time either. Relationships have ebbs and flows. One person want one, one person wants one, something. But something like kids is fundamental. I'm not suggesting you raise it on the first date, but if you know you want them at a certain point, you do want to, because your nightmare is that the person turns around and says, I don't want. I don't want kids with you. And then it turns out that they go on to have kids with someone else. You need to get out of that relationship and find someone who needs kids to do it.

Exactly. And I mean that, of course, not that you just had this thought, but if there's something that you've been sitting on for a while and your friends are urging you, like, I'm just saying it's a time to do it. Like, there's no. People sit on so many things in relationships. They don't communicate clearly and then they don't get what they want. And women wake up and they're 45 and they don't have kids.

Now, I don't want to say that you have to have kids, but I just want you to be able to ask yourself. And I'm glad that you think the questions are provocative because I thought really hard and long about, is this gonna piss people off? But I want people to engage in the really important things in their lives right now.

I love these questions. I was actually going to get into it. So we will get into some of them, but we're going to do an Instagram live. Hi, I'm here with Joanna Coles and her book. We're talking about her book, Love Rules how to Find a Real Relationship in the Digital World. And I love talking to you about your book because really, you guys, how do you find a relationship in the digital world? We've got some good tips for you here. This book asks you really important questions as a woman, like, what do you really want? Why are you sleeping with that person over and over again if it doesn't make you feel good? And what kind of person are you really looking for? So if you guys have any questions, ask us.

Do ask us. Do ask us. Yes, we will ask. We'll answer questions about anything.

Okay, so some of these questions you have women think about. I mean, I started thinking about it. So do you always fall for the guy who ignores you?

So many people do that, right?

They're like, it makes me feel.

Oh.

And I think we're gonna be answering some emails from listeners in a bit. And this comes up a lot. There's one that says, I only like the guys who don't like me. Or why is it the guys I like don't like me? And it's like this thing.

Well, then you have to go into an elaborate tap dance to get their attention. I mean, sometimes it's a pose and they do like you and they're doing it because they are shy to put themselves out there. But so often I think that it's part of the Cinderella complex that we've grown up with these princes and you know, the sort of sense that these ridiculous things that women are supposed to do to find the love of their life. The idea that you have to kiss all these frog. Cause it's such a ridiculous trope. Why should you have to kiss 30 frogs?

You don't have to kiss 30. This is what I love about your book because cut to the chase. Like maybe kiss 10 frogs and then you're not. Then you know what characters.

Hopefully you don't kiss any frogs. Hopefully you kiss some other princess. Cut right to the princess, too.

Don't you have to kind of kiss a few frogs so that you appreciate the princess? A few frogs?

Well, maybe, but I don't think they all have to be frogs.

What's in the middle Here, right. They're just, I don't know, they're the.

Can we have a couple of koala bears in that?

Yes, I would like a koala bear. And then what are the characteristics you feel you need in a partner? I love the idea of writing down what your non negotiables are. Like. I want someone who's enthusiastic about their job, loves their mother, likes the outdoors. And then, you know, if you're dating someone who just sits home, plays video games all day, hates their family, hates life is negative. You can go back to this checklist. I mean this is. There's so much more than a list in here. But there's just, it's really interesting and.

Also sort of values like, you know, what are their sexual values? Do you want honesty? Do you want reliability? Do you want someone who's responsible? Do you want someone who's kind? Do you want a grown up, do you want a child? I mean, I mean not literally a child, but do you want, do you know, do you want Peter Pan or do you want actually a sort of grown up.

Right. And if you keep dating the Peter Pan types, you might notice in here it asks you that. It kind of leads you to your own conclusions that, oh, I have been dating a lot of guys who haven't been available lately. It's not me because I think we're talking a lot about how women, I think we kind of, we blame ourselves for a lot of things. We think that we sort of have to please our partners. We kind of put other people's needs before our own. And I love that your book Love Rules has women really look at what they want and like that's okay. And giving women permission to ask for what they want, to live a life and to kind of shape their life around like going after what they want and not wasting time with a lot of the frogs.

Well, and I think it's. You have a much more interesting, much more nuanced relationship if you can be on honest about what you want.

Best ways to meet people offline. Love that question.

I think that's about being really present in the moment, not always having your phone with you. And it's everything from when you're in this, when you're in a coffee shop asking someone, you know, putting in. When you look at a line in a coffee shop, now everybody's on their phone. If you turn to the person next to you and say, oh, which do you think is better, the blueberry scone or the maple scone, you can start a conversation even if they don't look promising. They may have a brother who's promising, they may have a best friend who's promising. You just don't know. And if you don't have those serendipity little moments in the day, you know a. You're much less rich for it. But there's so much potential hiding in plain sight. If you can put your phone down. I'm a huge believer in joining things, a church choir, a theater group, a sports team. Because it's fun doing things with other people, not just sitting around and talking with your friends.

Right.

And if you think about how life was at college, usually people are members of clubs. You have teams, you know, you have groups of people. Community, you have community. And what happens when you go into the workplace is you start a job and then in the evening you see your friends, you go out for drinks or whatever. But you, you don't have that same sense of community. And I think it's super helpful to join one or two things. You don't have to become a lifelong member. But think of it in terms of I might do this for three months or six months and see if I like these people and don't be looking for the one because that's too much pressure.

I was gonna tell when you say that in your book, and I totally agree with you, that whole like we have to find the one lot of pressure. I don't even believe that that exists. I mean, you might find one person you wanna be with for a long time and you might say it's forever, but just to think that they have to have everything and check all the boxes. I just don't think that that's realistic.

Yeah, I agree. And that's also the sort of again goes back to the Cinderella complex that we've all grown up with that someh one person that to your point can solve all the problems. There are many the ones. But what you're looking for is people you can add to your social network, your real life social network to give you a bigger life. They bring friends with them. You extend your network of people. And the goal here is to have a bigger life. You will meet more people. And then if you want to find someone settle down with, you will. And it will be a much more natural process than frantically swiping right left to.

I totally agree with you.

You know, to see if you can find something.

I love what you're saying about put the. Put the phone down and Because I noticed that wherever I go now, it's like it used to Be that you would meet people in line walking to a store. You could be walking through a parking lot. But literally everyone's on their phones all the time. There is none of that eye contact, even checking people out. There's nothing like that because we are completely cut off.

And I think the thing is, it's not zero sum. We're not saying you have to put your device down, don't leave it at home.

I understand. You need ways.

Of course not. And I love being. I love being on my phone, but I don't want to be on my phone 247 and miss what's actually happening out there.

Right. Because the person's probably walking right past you.

And I think there is a sense of panic. I know. I feel it when I disconnect from my phone. If I switch the phone off or I put it down or I leave it in a bag, I have this kind of, you know, 60 seconds of full body roll of like, oh, my God, I'm not connected with the world. But then I get through it and then I'm talking to people and it's so much more fun.

Yeah. It feels amazing. I know. I agree. Okay, another question. Okay, so how do you break through to a partner who's always on the phone that you're saying, who feels closed off?

Well, they may be closed off because they don't want to talk to you about how they're feeling because it's not going well. And often I think when people say they don't want to talk about feelings, they mean they don't want to talk about feelings with you. So this might be a situation where the questioner has to be really frank and just say, I would love it if you could put your phone down. I've got a couple of things I'd love to talk to you about. Would you like a glass of wine? Let's have a chat. And if they can't put their phone down, then you might want to say, you know what? I think you and your phone have got a fantastic relationship. I'm so happy you've met. I'm actually leaving now. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard to. It's hard to compete with phones. And I think I heard this from a lot of people. And we've all got to be more disciplined around our behavior with them.

I think. I think we have to start setting some our own restrictions. Like at night, I'm not going to be on the phone between 7 and 10 when I'm with my partner. But I think that that it might be that they don't want to communicate with you. It might be also that a lot of people just don't have experience talking about feelings and emotions. So it could be the way that you're approaching it. Because if your partner has never talked about anything to anybody that they want to talk about you, it's really scary for them. So I think baby steps. I'm not sure what it is that you actually really what you're trying to get to with them, but I think getting out of the house, if you guys are going on a hike, I would say when you're on a road trip in the car, if you're just driving in the car is a great time to conversations because no one's on the phone and you're not even really making eye contact, but it's still intimate. So you're looking ahead on the road. So that could be a great time as well. And not to do it in a. You never talk to me. Your phone's always in the way. But just like, hey babe, I'd really love to connect with you. And I think like, let's talk about what's going on. It's important to me. It makes me feel like we're not really connect, you know, connected or you don't see me or whatever. But not blaming. And it might take a few times. I think a lot of people think they have a conversation once with a partner and everything should be great. Takes a few times sometimes to get our points across, maybe years.

And it may be that the person I know when I'm intensely on my phone, it drives my husband crazy. If we're driving somewhere and I'm on my phone and he's doing the driving because he wants to talk to me and I may be doing work things on it and I've got. There's an urgency around being on the phone that actually isn't always translatable to real life. And sometimes you do genuinely need to communicate. And other times you're like, you know what? Just because someone's emailed me right now, I don't have to actually email them right now.

There's also a decision, right? We're so reactive.

And I think the expectation that you have to be available 247 on your.

Device is that be your next book. Because really like someone there isn't. There was no rules around this. Like emails were stressful. But now I'm like, I've got. And there's no way to mark text. I don't get back to texts. It's a whole thing like, when are you supposed to get back to someone? What do you guys all think? Okay, any more questions?

You're allowed to get back to someone when you want to get back to them. Their urgency isn't necessarily your crisis. Isn't your crisis.

I know it's hard.

It's hard to do because I want.

To do it now because I won't remember to get back. And then people get annoyed. Well, hey, I love you all. I might not get back to you. So how do you find balance in your life, being a mom and a businesswoman and being in a relationship?

This is a very common question. And again, I think the dialogue around this is really unhelpful. There isn't any balance. I have no balance as a person. I don't care about having balance. I'm just trying to catch all the balls before they hit the floor. And sometimes they do hit the floor. Some of them bounce right back up, and some of them stay down there. You have to have other people. Right. I have a super flexible partner. I have kids that have so far stayed out of jail. I have a lot of super supportive colleagues. And I will say this, and this is a message that doesn't get through to women. It is much. It's much easier to do this the more senior you become. You get more money, you get more support, and you can control your own schedule. And then that makes a huge amount of difference. When you're a junior person trying to keep your whole life together, and you're at the mercy of a boss who wants everything on their schedule, it is much, much harder. You're much better off being senior and being able to call the shots.

Right. And if you're not senior yet, I would say just the simple power of learning to say no. A lot of times, things feel like everything's a crisis and you have to. Well, I can't not go to my neighbor's barbecue tonight.

And.

And I told my friend I'd pick up her kit. No. Like, there are things that you can say no to. And it is such a great feeling when you just say no. Like, no is a complete sentence.

Oh.

Okay. We're gonna take a quick break here. Give a shout out to our sponsors. Thank you, Joanna Coles, for being here. And we'll be right back.

I'm having another chocolate army.

Please do. These are from Thrive.

Okay, now we're back. I'm with Joanna Coles. Thank you for being here. Chief content officer of Hearst Magazines. And we're talking about her book Love rules. I want to talk a little about the expectations around women being asked to send naked photos. Naked pictures and feeling like a guy's not going to like him if they don't do that. And just the implications of that.

I've got news for everybody. There is plenty of naked flesh on the web. Between 30 and 60% of the web usage is spent on porn. If a man needs a picture, a naked picture urgently, he is not more than one click away from one. Do not, and I cannot stress this enough, do not send naked photos to someone unless you know and trust them a hundred percent. The rise in revenge porn is horrifying. We just had a terrible story in New York of a teacher whose ex boyfriend had plastered the school that she worked in with pictures of her naked. It sucks. Revenge porn, it's really difficult to get back from.

It really is.

And the ease with which you can send naked photos is out of all proportion to what can happen when they're misused. And so I really, really urge people to think about it carefully. I know that.

Probably will discover everybody's got naked pictures of themselves all over the web, but the misuse for them is massively on the increase and it's so distressing for people.

You're absolutely right. And I just want to say that in addition to that, even if you feel in the moment you can trust this person, we've been together, we're in love. I'm sure you are in this moment. Things are great. But I'm telling you, you send that photo. And I know this from my guy friends, the second they get a photo, they're like, hey, look what I got. Or know. Or they, they send it along to some, someone else will see it. So just know that it's going to get into someone else's hands behind the. Besides the person that you're intending to send it to. And this could really happen. People get upset, you break up with them, things happen. I'm sure the teacher at the school never thought that that would happen from sending a naked.

Of course not.

You don't think so. There are implications. And also be the one that doesn't be the one that says, I can't wait for you to see me in person. I can't wait for you to see my body in person. I'll just have to wait for it because I do feel like you. There's some pressure from people too. They're like, well, he won't like me, he won't go out with me. So thank you for claring. I Cannot say that enough on the show to encourage women to not do.

That well and value yourself. Don't put a naked photo out there, though. You know, the temptation is strong.

It is. I get it. And I do feel like, yeah, there's that pressure.

I get it too. It's just know your limits or figure out outfits that you look super sexy and that you feel comfortable sending. That don't show the whole hurrah.

Exactly. You don't need to shout the whole hurrah. I love the idea of your book about clearing out the toxic people. Sort of like clearing out the bad food. Don't eat the bad food and the toxic people in your life. It could be ex boyfriends. It could even be toxic friends. We'll talk about that process.

Yes. And again, I think this is where keeping a journal is really helpful because it's worth jotting down the feelings you have when you have been out for drinks with people or hung out with people. And you will find there's probably one or two people that make you agitated or that make you a bit depressed. I remember when I was pregnant with my older son, there were several people who were super negative and just left me literally feeling like I cannot see this person. And I think it was I was trying to protect my unborn child from their negative energy. And I cannot stress enough the strength you will find in keeping your own data. Everybody's supposed to be a data analyst now. Data analytics, all about that. Keep data on yourself and your own behavior and you. You will find out who pisses you off. You will find out the people that you end up pleasing. You will find out the people that make you nervous. You'll find out the people that make you feel slightly out of control. We all have those friends, right? I spent a year living with a friend who would get very drunk and pick up men and bring them back to the apartment. And it took me a long time to figure out that actually that made me incredibly uncomfortable. I would be running around the apartment hiding everything that. That I thought was valuable because I was terrified by what would happen if it went wrong. Happily, it never did. But she was someone that actually, in the end, I probably shouldn't have been living with. And so you want to figure out how these people impact you. And then, you know, if you really like them, but they do have a negative side. Limit the amount of time you spend with them. This is like, you know, we all want to eat the fries or the donut or the really fattening trip, but just limit it.

It's true. It's so true with those friends. I think that's something I've had to learn too, because you have those friends in your life or the exes or people that you just think. I mean, I'll say talk about friends, because I feel like a lot this is just a great lesson for women, that there's the ones you're like, well, we've been friends since high school or college, and we had this thing together and we have a history. But you realize as you get older, your values change. You get pregnant, you have kids, and you have this attachment. But you realize every time you're together, it just feels like they're draining the life out of you. And for women, again, I think we feel like it's not okay to cut relationships or to alter the way they don't have to be your everything anymore. Like, maybe you see them once a year, like you have fries once a year, but they don't have to be like your best friends anymore. And it's also okay to cut people. It's okay to shed people from your life that aren't serving you well. Being in touch with and accepting that. It's like you said with your roommate, took a year, maybe or a while to be like, something's not right here. But I just, again, having women trust their guts and saying, if it's not. If it doesn't feel right, it's probably not absolutely right.

And you want a varied diet, and you want a varied diet of people, right? So it may be that you were at school with this person and maybe you were cheerleaders together, and that has a value, but over time, the value fades. So there's no reason why you absolutely can't stay in each other's lives, but you just see each other less and you replace it with other people that give you more. And I think as you get older and you become more confident, it's okay to demand more of people that you do get a lot from and want to get a lot from and you can give back to, too. And also, who are the people that. That you feel you give to that you're not getting much back from and track? Do you feel tired after seeing this person? Do you feel energized? Do you feel innovated and then figure out what it is about them that leaves you feeling like that?

It's so true. You got to check in. I think that we just sometimes blindly stay in things for too long because we just. We don't think we can get out. But again, Just this is about getting in touch, like your books that, you know, get in touch with who you are, what you want, how you move through the world, what relationships are important to you and feel good to you. So I think that's great advice. So the other thing I liked was when you talked about get relationship role models. So which relationships? If you're like thinking, because I don't know that I would have known this, like, my parents are divorced. I didn't have a lot of great marriages to look at as a child, you know, when I started dating. But to really look at, even if it's a relationship on TV or your aunt and uncle or your neighbors, like what looks like a happy relationship or what looks like a relationship that you'd like to be in.

Well, and you can also have parents that were divorced who are still good, good role models. I mean, they may have had a successful divorce, they may have gone on to different relationships. I wouldn't say that divorce itself is.

True, but for me, right, for me, it wasn't a great model when I was younger. Now my mom's remarried, happy 30 years. But I'm saying at the time it was like, oh, marriage is going to be a disaster. But it's okay to look outside. If your parents didn't or you don't think that that's right. There's other places to look, of course.

And I mean, sometimes it's the parents of friends. And again, it's about what, what is the energy around these people? How do you feel? I, I think one of the most important things is to think about how do you feel when you are with this person, when you are with these people? Do you have an aunt and uncle that make you feel good? Do they support each other? Do they set each other up for success In a conversation? It could be friends you have, it could be siblings. I often think, think the, you know, we all had when we were growing up, someone's house that you really enjoyed going to. And if they said, hey, why don't you stay for supper? There's 30 of us tonight, whatever, you were always excited to be invited. So how do you recreate that energy? What was at the heart of that energy? And when are you at your best? Are you, you know, who are the people that you feel really confident and happy and fun around? And often they're the people that are you, you know, could be your relationship role models. That they don't have to be glamorous, they don't have to be good looking, they have to be kind they have to be nice to each other. And then ask them, you know, ask them how they got through the down times, how they got through bankruptcy or illness or the bad times. Did they ever think of getting divorced? How did they patch up? Right.

And we don't get curious. We don't each other about. No, we don't. You're right. Get curious about people around you and become the thing that I love about again. And we're going to emails. You'll help me answer some emails from listeners. But what I, what I love about your book, it's. It's saying, like, don't assume that you are an expert in relationships because you're not. We just assume that it should be going back to Cinderella, a magical fairy tale where relationships are easy. It works out. Sex should always be great. I'm gonna work on my job, my health, my spirituality, and not relationships. And what I love about this, your book, is that it's really a roadmap to kind of like, really focus on. Gives you great tools in a fun way to kind of figure out who am I, what do I want in the world? So I'm not wasting time and I'm getting curious about the world around me and I'm paying attention to my own body, my gut, how I react to things and what makes me feel good.

So I know. Well, I'm. Thank you. And, and also I think, think about what it would be like to date you. Right? I mean, do you listen? Do you talk incessantly about yourself? Are you interested in other people? What do you bring to the table that someone else is going to want to enjoy? And I think that's a question that women, oddly, given how much we think about servicing men, don't actually ask.

Right. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Ask if. Do you have something in here about when you're writing your profile? Have your friends, like, write a few people around you, ask them if they think.

Yeah, exactly. Ask your friends about your good qualities because you can't always, you know, sometimes you're shy about saying them. And if three or four people say, oh, my God, you're brilliant or you're super funny or you're very smart, then you can, you know, wrap some lines around that so that you're presenting a good sense of yourself.

Yeah, I love that. There's a lot of great tips in your book, so everyone should check it out. Love rules. Joanna Coles. We'll have a all this information on our site, so we're gonna head into emails from our listeners. I love Hearing from you, Joanna's gonna introduce the email portion of the show.

Okay, so now we're on to emails and if you have a question that you'd like Emily or me to answer on the show, we love that and we've made it super easy. To ask us a question, use the option that's easiest for you. So you can text save this in your phone right now. Just text ask Emily all one word to 797979. You'll receive a short form where you can enter your question and contact details. If you'd like Emily to call you during a future caller show, please indicate yes on the form. Talking to you about your question is one of Emily's most favorite things. I know that because she said that the first time I came in.

I love it. It's true. Okay, include your gender, your age, where you live, and how you listen to the show. Here we go. This is from Elizabeth. Thank you very much. I love the accent, love how you did it. You can't even help it. I know you love the accent. This is from Elizabeth. She's 22 in Philadelphia. Hi, Emily. I'm a huge fan of your show and I love everything about it. I'm a very sex positive person and I'm pursuing career in women's health. So I love all the good, empowering information you're sharing with your listeners. I'm 22 years old, living and studying in Philadelphia. I'm on some dating apps, but I feel I'm not having any success. I talk to guys for a little bit, but nothing ever really comes out. I've gone on a couple dates but haven't really met anyone I've connected with. I've had a few boys in my life, never a boyfriend, which is what I'm currently looking for. How should I go about trying to meet someone? Am I a lost cause? Is she lost cause because she's 23 and she hasn't had success with guys? So I think I hear this from a lot of young women that are like, what am I doing wrong? And why haven't I figured out yet? And you can't just say. I mean, I want to say a lot of times you're just 23, like, figure it out. This is part of the journey and not to have so much pressure on yourself. So I am going to say that to you, Elizabeth, and I would say that the process of learning to date is part of it. And also, guys are just as nervous as you are and they don't have all the answers. What would you say to her, like, nothing comes of it. Haven't you? And I'm sure you've heard this from a lot of women. They say, I'm trying, I'm doing everything. There's no guys out there. And I just think you have to. I mean, I would say date online, but also be out in the world. Practice talking to people. Because I think when you have a really full, rich, open life, like you talked about joining clubs or having a large community, you can't help but meet people. So if you're just relying on the dating apps and nothing else, you're studying, you're working hard, like, you probably won't find someone right right away.

And, you know, it's a bit like having a meal and only having beans. You need to have all of it. So absolutely use dating apps. It's a numbers game. The more you use them, you will eventually be successful. But you want a big life. Join things, get involved, and stop focusing on finding a boyfriend and start focusing on having more fun, enjoying yourself. You will put out positive energy. Of course, you're not a lost cause. Start a journal so you're tracking your own behavior. And look at the kind of people that you're swiping on. On dating apps. Is there a pattern? Are you repeating something that isn't working for you? Because the guys that you are actually going out with aren't the ones that you're having any connection with. So is there something that you're looking for that they have in common? Sit down, go through their profiles, figure out what it was you thought was attractive about them which turned out not to work for you in real life. And do a bit of research, you know, do a bit of due diligence on what's happening here. And also the other thing that I think is very common and people forget about is there are probably all sorts of people hiding in plain sight. It may be a guy sitting in your lecture theater. It could be someone you're, you know, rooming with or one of their best friends. So look around at your circle and figure out the people that you like, because if you go out for a drink with someone, you just like, they'll like you back for the most part. And, like, often leads to love. So I think be positive. It sounds like actually you're in a fantastic place to find love. You're open for it and just make your life bigger. Don't focus on finding the 1. Focus on having more fun. Start taking notes.

Great advice. Like, I almost think that'd be the title for the show. Like, don't focus, focus on having more fun. Because I think that we are so hard on ourselves. Like, we gotta date. Like, maybe if she's a student in her spare time, she's like, I gotta date, I gotta date. But no, have fun. Go out, that's fine.

And if you're out with a group of friends and you're looking around the group and there's no one there that really excites you, who cares? Give as much energy as you've got to everybody else. And they all have friends, they all have relations, relations and cousins and brothers. You know, life is big. The world is stuffed full of people. Of course you're gonna find something.

You will. You absolutely will. Okay. This is from Emily, age 20, Wisconsin. Hi Emily. I'm from Minneapolis, going to college in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Basically the middle of nowhere. I have a petite frame and I'm severely lacking in the boobs butt department. Living in the cities was great because there were so many more people who were open to my body type and appearance. I have purplish hair, lots of tattoos and piercings. Young men here definitely prefer a more natural appearance and a fuller body type. However, I recently started seeing someone from school that I really vibe with and the sex is great. I can't help but still feel a little self conscious because he tends to avoid touching my boobs and butt. He also seems mostly interested in just sex. Whenever we hang out, we end up in his bedroom. He says I'm attractive, but his actions don't back that up. How can I work through feeling less than adequate in an environment that makes me feel out of place? How do I know he's not just using me for sex? Thank you for your help, Em. You rock. So when I read this, I'm like, oh, Emily, you're projecting your insecurities around who you are and your differences, which I think are beautiful. How great to stick out in this place where everyone seems the same, that that's maybe why he doesn't like you or he's not touching your bed. So these are stories that are not true. Emily, I'm gonna tell you that I don't believe that this is what everyone's not thinking, what you're thinking. I'm sure he's into you and he likes you. He's also a 20 year old boy. So if it feels like he's just wants sex, there's testosterone running through his body. He probably is more interested in sex than having just conversations with you right now. That is true. So you can let him know that you are interested in more than just sex. You can let him know or invite him. I don't have to say that. You could say let's go to a movie tonight, let's go to dinner, let's go to a concert. Like you could kind of take control of it if that's what you feel like.

Yeah. And also if you want him to touch your boobs and your butt, then you just have to put his hands there and you, you have to tell him that this is what you would like and this is what would excite you. And that would be more fun for him too because I'm sure he doesn't want to think that he's going to bed with you and you're not having a good time. And good sex is about good communication. It often gets better and better the longer you've known somebody. It sounds like you need to do a little bit more talking and a little more doing things together which don't just revolve around sex.

Right, Exactly. Exactly. Great advice. I think you're so right. Communication is a lubrication. Okay. This is Brian, age 41, Ontario. Hi Emily. Thanks for always giving great advice over the years from an avid listener. I'm 41 and met a 21 year old girl at an after hours business event. We hit it off. I invited out for drinks and we ended up having sex. The sex and conversation was great. I touched base a week later to see if she wanted to have lunch, which she said she would love to. Well, our schedules have not connected and she a very busy girl. She's in med school five days a week and works on the weekends. We have a few how are you? Texts and we're finally able to connect our schedules after two months. What was supposed to be a quick breakfast that turned into a three hour breakfast with great conversation. I dropped her off, we hugged, shared a kiss, goodbye. Right after she texted me, thanks again, that was nice. I told her I had a great time and let's not go two months without seeing each other again. She said definitely and that was two days ago. What's the next step? How long should I wait before contacting her? I think she's genuinely interested, but if she can't really find time for another two months, then I'm out. So there's a few things going on here. I mean, you're 41, she's 21, she's in medical school. She's beyond busy. Like she's beyond busy. What you could even imagine right now. So I feel like, I mean, there's great detail in here about what, you know, you had a great time together and it's going to be two months and, and I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly here, Brian, but she does just seems unavailable right now. And I also think though, if there's no, like, I don't believe in games. So you're saying how long should I wait? I mean, text her right now, ask her, say, I had a really nice time with you, I'd like to see you again. Let's go give her some options to go out again and see what happens. So I think that she probably just is really busy sometimes. That's the case and there's a 20 year difference and she's going through medical school. So again, again, what are you looking for right now?

Yeah, and I think, I think that's super sound advice, Emily. And I also think it's less about the age than it is about the stage. You're 41.

I love that quote you've got.

You can use it. I will. I think it's. She's at the beginning of her Life. You've got 20 years under your belt. I would say pick up the phone. This could be someone that you could have a daily phone call with. You're checking in on her life. She might like to have you checking in and so saying, hey, how's it going? Are you sleep deprived? Anything I can do? Can you send us some soup? You know, if you want to stay involved with her, but you should be realistic. She's got six more years to go at medical school probably it's not going to ease up. And if actually what you're saying is you want a really strong girlfriend who's really going to be available to you, then she may not be the right person right now.

Right. I think that is such a good point. The stage, because you're right, things do work out with the 20 different 20 year age difference. But yes, being in medical school is just. And her age and where they're at, I mean, at this point in her life. And I love creating intimacy through phone call or even FaceTime. Right now we FaceTime, you guys. I mean, you could be that person for her, that support and talking and it could really enhance intimacy and you could see if there is a real connection. Great advice, Joanna. Thank you so much. This was a blast.

Oh my.

Thank you for being here.

It's my pleasure. I've had the best time. I wish people could see the office. Well, they can see it a little bit. We're surrounded by feathers and whips. It's very exciting.

It is a very exciting place.

Very exciting indeed.

Oh, I love it. Thank you for being here. It's JoannaColes on Instagram, Joanna Coles on Twitter.

On Instagram.

And the book, how do you find a real relationship in the digital world? In a digital world, love rules. We'll have all the links.

Great. It's sold on Amazon and all good bookshops.

Okay, everyone, thank you so much for listening. I love you all. Thank you to my amazing team. Thank you to Ken, Jenny, our volunteers Shannon and Sarah, our production team, producer Jamie E.P. lark, and our engineer and editor Michael. Thanks everyone for subscribing to the show, reviewing it and I love you all. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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