More Sex, Less Narcissism w/ Jenny Mollen

All your stalking stories are freaking hilarious, and that was back when you couldn't just stalk at home. Like, on Instagram you could find out everything now. Like, you'd go out and do the work.

Like, right? I did it before you could just like easily like just cyber stalk somebody. I was in the flesh.

You were stalking like real— weren't you like in a trunk?

Yeah, I was like in the bushes. I was like in your, in your fucking driveway with my lights out.

You're like OG stalker. OG! You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Jenny Mollen is the author of City of Likes, a fictional comedy about mommy influencer culture and the intensity of female friendships, especially when one of them is a narcissist. Are they obsessed with each other? Do they want to have sex with each other? And what do you do when someone's perfectly curated facade Finally Cracks. Jenni and I met years ago, and I know you'll love her just as much as I do. Besides being a bestselling author, she's also an actor, host of the hilarious Third Wheel with Jenni Mullen podcast, a mom, and wife to actor Jason Biggs. On this episode, she talks about the personal experiences with social media that inspired her book, why she wants to see a sex therapist, and helps me answer your sex and relationship questions. For example, if you're in a relationship, is it okay to comment on someone else's Instagram telling them how attractive they are? Jenni and I give it to you straight. Intentions with Emily Morse. For each episode, join me in setting an intention for the show. What do you want to get out of this episode? How could it help you? Well, my intention is to help you laugh, something we all need right now, right? Jenni Morse is as real as it gets, and I think you're going to love her refreshingly honest take on sex in a long-term relationship and how social media shapes our real-life connections. Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show. My new article overcoming 4 common sex fears is up at sexwithemily.com. Also check out my YouTube channel, social media, and TikTok. It's @sexwithemily for more sex tips and advice. If you want to ask me questions, leave me your questions or message me sexwithemily.com/askemily. Or call my hotline, 559-TALK-SEX, or 559-825-5739. Always include your name, your age, where you live, and how you listen to the show. And totally cool to change your name if you want to remain anonymous. All right, everyone, enjoy this episode. Jenny Mullen is a writer, actor, Instagram personality, and New York Times bestselling author of the essay collections I Like You Just the Way I Am and Live Fast, Die Hot. Named by Huffington Post as one of the funniest women on both Twitter and Instagram, her new book City of Likes is on bookstands now. Find more Jenny on Instagram @JennyMullen, on Twitter @JennyAntietz, or on JennyMullen.com. Let me just say, I've been a fan. I've met you like years ago. You were on Loveline with Dr. Drew. You came in with your husband, Jason Biggs, and your book— I think you guys, maybe you were coming on for your book. I believe it had just come out.

I think so.

Uh-huh. Right? I Like You Just the Way I Am. And I was a guest co-host, so I didn't know, like I didn't get prepped ahead of time, but I went home and I like devoured your book and I loved it. And I think you're such a hilarious, relatable, authentic writer. And so talented. And then I, yeah, and I love you. I've been following you on Instagram. I just love all the things that you put out there. And like during the pandemic, you're so real, just like following you with like things that I'm like, I wish I could just go out with like my Zit Medicine and like everything in the back, my kids crying and vomiting and all the things. And it just, you're just real and relatable and talented and all the things.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's so nice.

Yeah, truly. So thank you for being here. On the show, talk about your new book, which is a novel.

I've only waited how many years to get on this show. I mean, Sex with Emily, I heard— I've heard about it, I think, that day when I met you. And I feel like I had another couple girlfriends do your show, and I kept thinking, I'm like, I've done— I've either done it, or— but yeah, it was— it was—

we did talk. I've always wanted you to be ever since then because— oh, here's what happened. So I know this is a little bit of old news or old story, but you had just for Jason's birthday hired a sex worker to have like a surprise threesome. So that was in the news. I was like, I love this girl that she did this. I know.

And you were like, you were like the first person talking about vibrators and everything.

Yeah.

You were ahead of your time back then. Nobody was doing that.

But now they're everywhere, right? You buy them at like Walgreens and stuff.

Now, like vibrators, you could like pick up with a matcha latte at like any wellness Studio.

So true. But it was then, it was like, yeah, it was much more taboo.

You pioneered that shit.

Yeah, it's been a long road. If you were here, I'd give you so many vibrators. But maybe you have vibrators.

I don't know. Now I don't know. I don't really have sex anymore. Once you like, I think, have been married as long as I have, you're like, what?

How's that going? Not having sex? How does that go over? How does that go over in your relationship?

Thank God I'm not married to a guy that like, that's his love language. So thank God, because if I were with a guy who was like, we need to have sex once a week, I would be flipping the fuck out.

So, so how often then?

I mean, maybe once a month. Okay. And I'm proud of myself when I do. It's like going on the treadmill. I was like, damn, I am amazing.

I killed it today. Okay, we'll get into that because it's like, yeah, One of the top questions that people ask me all the time is like, how many times a week should we have sex? What's normal? Is this okay? Is that okay? Once a week, 3 times a month, 3 times a year. And I always think if you're both okay with once a month, then yeah, once a month even is like, I'm like, whoa, you're like, I rule.

I made it within the month-long period.

Do you like a reminder, like reminder to have sex?

I need that in my calendar, but I'm also bad at tracking my period. So who knows? I might be having sex once every 3 months. I don't even know.

Well, as long as you're both okay with it, you've been together a long time.

We've been together 15 years. And a girlfriend of mine yesterday actually was like, when do I get to the point where I don't have to have sex once a week with this guy? Like, when is that? And I thought that was interesting. I was like, well, I don't know. I mean, I just got lucky that I'm on the same page with somebody because I can imagine, I don't know, maybe if I married a Scorpio, it would be different.

What is he? I know you're a Gemini too. I'm a Gemini.

He's a Taurus.

Okay.

He's very stable, can be stubborn, but very grounding.

He grounds you?

Yes, he's like the Ethel to my Lucy. He's not really Desi, he's more Ethel, but he does hold the string to my kite.

Oh, I love that. You've been through a lot because I've actually been doing a lot of, like, you know, like I said, I've been following you and researching and all the things, but also just in listening to you talk about it What I've heard you say about your relationship is, and we can get back to the sex thing because people know how I feel, that like I do think intimacy is important in a relationship to make sure you're connecting and you're intimate.

I think I do want to like see maybe like a sex therapist at some point to talk about it because I don't think that I'm good with that kind of vulnerability or intimacy. I told Jason recently, I just had Gabby Bernstein on my podcast, and afterwards I was like, maybe I was molested as a child. I don't know if that's true or I'm just stealing her story, but I'm just like, so, because, because I have issues with I don't want to be touched.

Oh, okay.

It's not my love language. I mean, I will get into it. It's not my go-to. And so I'm sure there's other shit there. I also had a very sexualized mother who was like always in a Tadashi dress and going to a happy hour with some guy somewhere.

I mean, it's all related. It can be. So does the thing of you not wanting touch— because you are seeing a sex therapist right now in this moment. No, but it's okay.

Finally, I mean, I manifested this.

You did. You did manifest. No, but I'm curious, like, is it something about when you're actually having sex? Are you okay with the touch and the connection? Are you like, well, then I'm okay.

I don't want to, like, stare into anybody's eyes, but intimacy, it's intimacy.

Yeah, perhaps that's harder for you, being intimate. And then you're so, and you're so funny and relatable and all those things that maybe that's probably humor as a defense mechanism, probably for not wanting to actually be intimate with anyone.

But that's why having kids was a real mindfuck, because you can't help it. You're instantly vulnerable in a way that you've never been vulnerable. And now I'm suddenly in a relationship with the type of guy that I would have never gone for because they play games, they toy with my emotions, they don't give me what I want. All the things that I tell my girlfriends to steer clear of, now I'm living with my two sons.

They're your sons and you birthed them. They came out of your body, these two boys.

Yes.

But going back to the touch thing, is Jason's love language, does his happen to be touch?

I don't know. I mean, I think it's probably acts of service and validation, praise. Words that he likes to be touched. I just think he probably, you know, sometimes he does say he's like, you never like even think to like put your hand on my shoulder. So I do need to work on it.

Yeah, maybe. I mean, how are you with your kids?

I'm super physical with them.

Okay.

Yeah, I like, I smash their faces. Like, I want to just like eat them.

Yeah, it's the best.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like nothing's really a problem until it's a problem. But I also, like a seeker like you, been in therapy since I was like 10. Like, I want to overturn every rock, every stone. Like, what is the issues that we can get into? So first off, for me, like, my love language is touch. But if it's not yours, it's not Jason's, and he's not like, why aren't you touching me more? It is something to like, if it's not a problem and you are having sex, there probably is something there that maybe when you were growing up it wasn't okay, or your primary caregivers. Maybe seeing your mom. I think we tend to overreact or react to what we saw in the past with our parents in the current moment. So maybe that was a thing, but it doesn't sound like it's coming up in a way that's a problem, but it's— I would just love you to feel more, I don't know, like the desire thing. So do you ever feel like you are in the mood?

I want to feel more like I want to get into that. Yeah, I want— I wish that I did have more of a desire to connect physically. That's why I think I should go to therapy to sort of unearth, like, why is that desire to connect sexually or desire to get physically—

like, it's all sort of related in a way. I think the touch thing comes along. Like, what I'm more interested in is it's to think about, like, sexually, when you guys first got together at the beginning, which we know the honeymoon phase, everything's like always amazing at the beginning. But what— were you guys having sex a lot more often? Was it more?

Yeah, probably. Yes, in the beginning. But there was also drugs. I mean, we were wild. We were so crazy. I got pregnant, we were on ecstasy. It was like a lot of things went down in the beginning. But then eventually we moved into the space where we just like to sit on the couch and eat Pirate's Booty and hate watch The Bachelor.

Which is also fun.

Also so intimate. Yeah.

Do you ever feel any of the desire anymore in your body? Like, do you ever like masturbate or feel turned on by anything? Other things besides Um, yeah, yes, yes.

But some more like when I'm having a hard time going to sleep, things like that. I'm like, oh, maybe I should masturbate to make myself like calm down or fall asleep.

That works. It totally does work. How about intimacy beyond just like intercourse, right? Which is what we— which I actually am trying to like take the focus off. We're also focused on like, well, we did it, we had penetrative sex and that's it. But that's for the majority. I don't know about you, for the majority of vulva owners, that's not how we're even gonna have the most pleasure. So it's through intimacy and connection. Like, how often do you guys just— do you feel that you're just like holding hands, cuddling, watching TV? Like, is that—

yes, when we're away from our children, we're very physical and touchy and kind of huggy. And, you know, I, I'll— I feel like we hold hands when we walk and that kind of thing. So I think children also change the dynamic. Where it's almost as if we're like on the same basketball team and I'm passing to him, he's passing to me. There isn't a lot of time for the intimacy when we're on in that way.

Yeah. Then you have young kids, right? How old are the boys?

I have an 8-year-old and a 4-year-old.

How do you have any time for anything? That's the other thing. It's that like you literally have no time. You know, they're boys. I understand that you have no time, but how is your relationship? Because I was listening to a show you did. You're like, Jason and I, we like text our couples therapist. You know, we're like, so you have a therapist that you work with?

Yes, who we've been with since we first got together, Beth Becker, in LA actually. Okay, she's fantastic. If anybody needs a couples therapist, what's her name? She's always like, why do you bring me up? Her name is Beth Becker. Okay. And she's in LA. She, she's like right by— her office is like off Beverly Glen area.

You have the therapist that you go to like once a week?

We will, when we're good, we're going once a week. And then sometimes what happens is We will be busy and miss a week and then think that we're killing it. We're like, "Well, we don't need therapy right now. We're just so strong as a couple. We've evolved." And then inevitably something will happen, usually something with the kids. We're at each other's throats and it's like, "Why don't you call Beth Becker if you really want to talk to me about that?" You know, and we triangulate her in that way. And then she'll receive a text from one of us or both of us. And we get back on the wagon.

But that's super healthy. I think that you have someone to talk to about it. But if the sex doesn't want to get—

I don't know how couples do it without therapy. I really don't know how anybody stays together without therapy.

Well, tell me how it's worked for you. So this is what I always say. I'm a huge advocate of therapy. Always. I'm like, I think every couple needs it right away to communicate, to understand, like, everything in the relationship. Like when you get into arguments and all the things in life and you start to build a relationship with the therapist over time and with each other, and you have homework and all the things. And so I think that's really healthy. But maybe you could talk about after 15 years, you've been in since the beginning, how would you describe how therapy has helped your relationship?

Well, it's shifted my perspective. I mean, I used to think that I couldn't be wrong or that my reality was correct. And that's what's so insane is that the way you perceive something being done to you doesn't mean that it's actually happening to you at all. And we sit there and say, oh my God, you know, you put the narrative on them of like, it's triggered your own childhood shit. So you feel like you can finish the end of the sentence before you've even listened to them. And you're reacting to things that, you know, it's almost, it's that AA saying, if it's hysterical, it's historical. So most often it isn't even about the person you're fighting with, but you're like ready to die on that mountain over something like some perceived offense to you that probably has to do with your childhood shit, not even what's going on in the moment with you and your partner. It took me a long time to realize that.

Can you give an example of what's happened lately?

It'll be something about Jason is away and I have the kids and he's working, you know, on a movie or something. And I'm stuck in Anguilla with food poisoning with the kids. They're raging, they're going crazy. I don't know what I'm going to do. How am I going to get home? I'm out of the country. I can't move. And I'm upset with him because he either like isn't listening to me. Instead of saying, "Oh, Jenny, it must be so hard what you're going through," he's getting offended because he wants to be the good boy. So, he has that stuff of like, "Mommy's mad at me and I need to defend because I've done nothing wrong." So, he's shutting down when what I'm looking for is I need to be heard, I need to be seen, I feel abandoned, it's triggering my abandonment shit, and by you pushing away and defending yourself, I'm feeling that injury over and over again. So we get into the same lock that we can't kind of break free of until somebody points it out to us.

That's good, that's exactly it. We're all being re-triggered from our childhood.

Re-triggered, yes!

Every moment, every moment. It's so true, abandonment, that's That's one of my favorite.

It's hysterical. It's historical, people.

I love all the AA sayings. And, um, I also love fear, false evidence appearing real. So many great— yes, yes, so many great AA quotes. What are the other ones I always quote? But that's because Jason's sober, right?

Yeah, he's been sober now for, I mean, basically all of Sid's life. And that has been amazing. That's like played such a big role in, in our relationship. I mean, I can't even imagine co-parenting with somebody who had a problem and was still using. That would be tricky.

I don't know how people handle that either. What we often crave, right, in a new relationship or early on in the relationship is everything's new and exciting and it's novel and like, I've never seen this person naked. I've never kissed this person before. Like, there's a new fantasy, there's something new. But you're with someone for 15, 10, 15 years and like, it's all kind of the same and you're in your routines. And so what we often need is that novel thing. And so you guys are kind of in your pattern. So is there conversations you can have? Is there, you know, well, I was going back to the thing about your, the threesome that you had. Now that was a while ago, before children, but was that something— and I know it ended up being like a joke, but there is something to that. Like, even if it's just talking about—

I was like, I kind of, again, I thought like, oh, this could be fun. This is something like I was trying to be wild and fun because we had just gotten married and that sort of— there is a bit of like, just like an erasure of self, like in getting married and having babies, like for women. And I felt like I wanted to still be me and my crazy Jenny and fun. And I thought, well, this is something that might spice it up and make it interesting. And then it became just like a comedy of errors.

So it wasn't like a fantasy of you guys? You guys aren't like, oh, I really want to— That's not like a lingering thing that you'd want to have a threesome or have someone else in the relationship? Right now we're just trying to have you guys have sex, right?

No, it feels like a lot of work now. Like if there was somebody else involved, even I think about people who are having affairs and I think, Jesus, that sounds like a lot of fucking work. If somebody else needed anything from me right now, I'm like, listen, I've got two kids. I work full-time. I really do. You know, it's too much. If you—

yeah, I feel like you want me to go down on you too.

I'm sorry, I'm tapped out.

I don't want like another penis that's making demands on my life. Literally, that's the last thing you need.

Penis or vagina, both. I'm like, guys, I don't have it in me. I'm done.

Well, you guys seem really solid, like even just watching what I see online and all the things. I mean, what I just love is that you have a counselor in place and you work on it. So to me, that's—

if we're willing to do the work. I mean, that's the thing about Jason and I, and that's why I feel like I never get scared about our relationship, even though we've definitely been through dark times. I don't ever think that we're not going to make it because, one, we're both super determined when we put our minds to things. We don't like to fail. But also, we are willing to change. We're willing to do the work and change ourselves. We're not just expecting the other person to, like, clean up their act to fit into our schedules.

So you keep making each other like the best versions of yourself throughout? Yes, because that's really what a healthy relationship is.

I mean, it's hard. Like, he drives me absolutely fucking crazy and I drive him crazy, so I don't want to like, you know, make it sound like it's easier than it actually is. It is really fucking hard, but we do love each other. And I don't know, I just feel like I got lucky with who I chose. On a lot of levels.

And you were so— you were young too, right? You guys met—

yes, I was so young. We were on drugs. We were like wild. But there was something about Jason that I just— I don't know, I just knew. I mean, to his core, I feel like he is my twin flame. We're so different, but we have so much of the same. Our, our just like our belief system is So similar.

And your values and all that. Exactly. And that really helps you kind of flourish in your, in your life and your career and parent, not to always be worrying about is this going to last, is it not.

Oh yeah, and he's so much better than me about like my career. I mean, this ego strength that this guy has is insane. I literally have made a career out of talking shit about him, stalking his ex-girlfriend, raging about the fact that he's famous and I'm not. And that was literally how I started my fucking writing career. And he has done nothing but support me every step of the way. He shows up, he'll do like anything. He'll read my shit over and over again. He's just better than me.

That is just so loving. Well, that is an ego thing, right? He's just very confident in who he is.

He's just so confident.

But Jenny, you come across as so confident too. Like, I look at you, I'm like, I wish I could do— because I've been sort of off of social media a lot lately, like in my personal life, just sort of been, I don't know, regrouping and less doing stuff like that. But I'm like, part— sometimes I just want to be like, this is what's going on in my life. Not that I'm saying I'm something other than I am. To get to your— we'll get to your book in a minute, City of Likes, which is all about like curating a certain image online. But I guess I look at you and think confidence— I know is on a spectrum, but always, we're always changing— but very confident, like self-assured.

I mean, that's so sweet. I think the thing about me is that like I don't feel I don't have a button that like— I don't know how to hide my truth. I don't think I know how to sort of modulate what is happening, what I'm saying, what's coming out, what I'm presenting. I've always come from a place of like, we're all fucked up. And I don't know if you feel that way too, having been in therapy since you were a kid. Yes. I just feel like Everyone's family is dysfunctional. Everyone has these things. So talking about them, why should I feel shame? I feel almost when I'm open about that stuff, I'm able to disarm people. And when I was younger, I was talking, I just did this, this podcast with Busy Phillips, who she was my like arch rival in high school. I mean, we were pitted against each other for many years and our lives have woven in and out of each other's forever. And she said, I always looked at you and thought of you as being so perfect, and that your life must be this and you must be that. And for me, I think that also my, like, brutal honesty growing up was my way of saying, I'm not fucking together. My shit is crazy. My parents have been married and divorced 6 times. But like, you just seem like this, like innocent little blonde girl and people think, oh, her life's so easy, you know, her dad paid for college, whatever it is. And I just, I needed to like really make, make sure that it was clear that like I am other from like that. I didn't want to be lumped into that. I need everyone to know that like I am the Grendel figure of like Tribeca. Like I'm not those moms. I'm not fucking pulling it all off. I don't know, there's, it's just a need to I had to really disclose my truth in order to feel accepted.

After the break, Jenny and I answer an email from who's wondering if she should read into her partner's social media use. I would love you to help me answer some questions that we get from listeners. Yes, I'd love to get your advice. Help us along here. We get a lot of questions, so I thought some of these would be fun for us to answer. Okay, great. This is from 31 in San Francisco. Hey, Dr. Emily, dating during social media era isn't easy. I've been with my boyfriend for almost a year and we have a pretty good relationship despite Instagram. Recently I found he commented on a girl's post that she was still pretty AF despite a horrible event that left her toothless. He has liked a few other posts of her, and she's a pretty girl. There's so many beautiful women, so I can't blame him for feeling the need to look at them or follow them. Women are very beautiful and are overly sexualized, which is not his fault, and for men it can be hard not to be curious. I want to know, should I stay calm as long as he's not physically cheating? I know it's unrealistic sometimes for individuals not to be curious, or flirt. I think that personally, this is going to happen with Instagram. Your partner is going to comment on something and you got to talk to them about it and just say, this is how it makes me feel. We're in a committed relationship. When I see you commenting, it doesn't feel right. Kind of hurts. This is what it makes me feel. And I don't think that's your intention. Could you tell me more about what goes on in your head when you're making these comments? What comes up for you, Jenny?

I would flip the fuck out. I would be like, listen, you're done. You're done. You're commenting on other people's pages. I can't be with you. I would just be like, think about like how like that one like looks for me. That's just like mortifying. I don't want somebody that I'm in a relationship with to be like, you're still pretty as AF to somebody else.

I'd be like, okay, that's intense.

Hold your fucking role, dude. You know, it's just too much. It's just not a good look.

It wasn't just like a like, it was a you're still pretty AF.

Yeah, that's over the—

yeah, that is over the top. No, that's a good point. So you just address it. Right away. Yes, I think she's being too kind to him. I think you're right.

Now then, looking back, I'm like, yeah, well, I feel like at one point I went on Jason's Instagram and I was like, you don't need to be following this person, you know, like he wasn't even around, but I was just going through the people he follows and deleting. I don't even know if he knows, to be honest. He doesn't know how to use it that well.

So he's not—

you know what, he hasn't missed them. So I think I made the right choice.

But how has it impacted your relationship, social media? Has it, or does it—

Oh yeah, I mean, it has for sure. You know, I was calling him Jaden on my Instagram for a while, and he didn't like it. He was like, it's rude to me. It's disrespectful. How do you not see that? And so certain things he gets upset because he'll think that I've just crossed a line. But you know what? Jason's tolerance is so high. He has let me publish two books where I basically talk all about my obsession with his ex-girlfriend and with— using a fake identity to befriend her. I mean, he has put up with so many shenanigans and lets me get away with murder, to be honest. So when he has a problem with something, I slow my roll because it's just rare.

All your stalking stories are freaking hilarious. And that was back when you couldn't just stalk at home. Like on Instagram, you could find out everything now. Like you'd go out and do the work.

Right? I did it before you could just like easily like just cyberstalk somebody. I was in the flesh.

You were stalking, like, real— weren't you, like, in a trunk?

Yeah, I was, like, in the bushes. I was, like, in your, in your fucking driveway with my lights out.

You're like OG stalker. Oh, geez. Yes, my head goes off too, because, like, really, like, that— now we just, we're just lazy. We're just lazy. We're not doing the work.

We're really not.

We're not doing the work at all. And so, like, oh my God, Daddy, that's I love it. You just call it out. Yep, that is cool. I think you gotta just call it out. Call out your partner, unfollow if it's not cool, and like let your partner know how you feel.

Because would you be cool if somebody— if your boyfriend said that to a girl right in front of you? No, you'd probably like throw a drink on him.

That's a really great analogy to think like, would you do that if we were at a party? Would you go up and say you're still hot as F? Would you, would you do that?

Yeah, exactly.

You probably wouldn't.

Exactly.

That's a way to think about it. Okay, I love that. Okay, this is from Terry53. It's a man. He says this: Dr. Emily, my girlfriend and I have been together for 2 and a half years. We have a strong connection. We love each other, but it's been tough for 12+ months. My dad died a year ago and I fell apart, leaning on her too hard for too long. In January, she was struggling with demanding work, kids, and their activities and asked me to get my shit together, which I've been actively doing— therapy, working out, reading, journaling. Our sex life dropped off at that point and has not fully recovered. Over the past 2 months, I've done a lot of work and feel much better. My girlfriend is still struggling, has admitted that she feels overwhelmed and burned out, and there's nothing left for herself or me. Here's the question: I know she will masturbate sometimes rather than have sex. She doesn't throw it in my face, but I feel jealous. I've asked her to tell me about it because it turns me on. Hell, I masturbate too, and I'd love to do it in front of her. Should I feel jealous or rejected when she uses her vibe rather than waiting to have sex? I'm assuming it's her way of self-care. What do you think?

I mean, I would say no. I definitely think they're two different things. One is self-care and then the other is intimacy. We're circling back to the beginning of our session. I mean, yeah, I think one is, you know, she's doing it to calm down and to have like a moment for herself. And the other is a bit more performative and making more of an effort for him. So I think they're totally two different things. I get that he wants that connection with her, and I think it's sweet, but I actually think that he should just honor her time for herself as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, here's the thing, you guys, you know, listening to the show, like, masturbation is part of being sexually healthy and well, and it probably is self- soothing. It's making her feel connected to herself. We all probably could masturbate a lot more. So I feel like— sounds like he feels like he pushed her away because of the death and everything he's going through. So he just needs to find a way to connect with her again intimately. And what I would recommend here is like, what about some, you know, mutual masturbation, which I might recommend for you too, Jenny, because— okay, mutual masturbation, which people are like, oh, that's weird. I don't want to see my partner masturbate. But here's why it works and it can be hot. It's because you know that you're both going to get off. You don't have to touch anyone else but yourself.

Right.

Which you might like, but also it's like hot to watch your partner please themselves. But also, you know, it's a sure thing, but you also kind of see what they do. And you might know this because you've been with Jason for a long time. I'm like, like for me, when I'm with a new partner, I'm like, oh, I didn't know that your hand goes up and over the tip like that. So now when I'm giving you a blowjob— educational— I'm like, oh, you grab your balls. Well, clearly I'll grab your balls the next time I give you a blowjob. So you learn from it and it's sort of— it's still intimate and you're both having an orgasm.

Yeah, I like that. That's sweet.

Yeah, it is sweet. And also, sex begets sex. So the other thing I would say—

that's true, I agree with—

like, I'm— even though it's my job, like, if I don't have sex or I don't masturbate, like, I sometimes— I don't care either. It doesn't hit us over the head. And it's when we think it should be this, um, spontaneous desire, like, I should just want sex, and the fact that I don't want sex means something's wrong with me. But the thing is, we have to work at it, especially like— and I would say the older we get, but it's— I used to always say that. But the truth is, I hear from women in their 20s who are like, I've been with my partner for 3 years and I don't care if we ever have sex again.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Right.

Like, or we're on medication or birth control, or there's all these things that dampen our arousal and our desire. So what I think is really cool is to think about, like, is sex important? Is it important to be aroused? Is it important to have orgasms? Like, yes, I love my partner. So to put things in place, like saying, like, let's just masturbate together. You know what's going to happen. It's an intimate thing. And the more you have an orgasm, you're like, oh yeah, orgasm. I kind of like that. And so like, oh, that was fun.

Yeah.

Like, I forget too, since my job, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. I got to do that. And then I want more. It's like working out. Like if you don't work out for a while and then you're like getting back to the gym, the first time sucks.

Oh, oh my God. You're like, what's a sit-up?

Right, exactly. And you're like, I did 3 sit-ups and it's great. But then with sex, it's kind of the same thing because then, and then the more time that goes by, it's harder to get back to the gym and it's harder to get back to sex. So true. It's a muscle. So I recommend going back to partner and you. It's something, you know, it's kind of fun to think like, talk to her and say, I think it's— let her think it's hot that she masturbates because you think it's hot. Terry, you do think it's hot. You said it was masturbate. You think it's hot. And so rather than like, you know, just saying like, I would love to watch you masturbate, let's do it together. And then that just breaks the whole thing that she's feeling bad about herself. Are you feeling bad about it? Threatened?

Cool.

Okay, thanks. Let's talk about City of Likes for a minute. Tell me about this, because it is more about the mob influencer that you kind of got— your character in the book gets into, but then also about— I love too about narcissistic female relationships, which I've never— narcissism is totally having a moment now. Everyone loves talking about narcissists, but about narcissist friendships, I thought all of it was very interesting. It's great concepts that you're tackling.

Well, you're gonna love the book because if you know me, you're gonna see me in it. You're gonna be like, oh, I mean, it's a novel, but it is so Jenny. And like, I, I mean, so many of the issues that I get into in it, it's just all of my darkest fears. It's like my most personal, vulnerable truths. Things that like, I don't think I could have written this book as a memoir because I don't know, one, I would have been afraid that I would have hurt my husband and my family with some of the things I disclosed. And two, I would have been driven out of New York City because of like the people that I'm going after and like kind of like skewering. So I knew it had to be fiction, but I didn't know how to write fiction. I didn't know what I was doing. I wrote the book. It took about a year to write it, took out the pitch. It didn't sell. I had to pull it off the market. I then had to go rewrite it. I took another year to rewrite it because like I can't let something sit in a drawer. I'm just gonna become psychotic. I do like seem to be fueled by rejection in some weird fucked up way where if somebody tells me no or I can't have it, I feel like, oh, now the story's getting good. Like now here I am, the hero against insurmountable odds. Like this is the story that I want to tell. Like, this is the story that I want to see to fruition. So I just doubled down on that shit and re— and took it out a year later and still was not getting the kind of feedback I wanted because now at this point people are like, who wants a book about social media? That's terrible. And privileged women in lower Manhattan, I think that might read as tone deaf in a post-COVID world. So people were scared and I just was at the point where I said, I'm going to publish it myself if I have to. This is my truth. And this is the story that I really needed somebody to tell me, to be perfectly honest. And that is what happened. I ended up finding a producer who had never published books before, who had an imprint. And he said, okay, let's do it. I believe in you. I don't— I mean, Chiclet, I don't know, but I believe in you. Let's go for it.

That's amazing. Congrats. You kept going for it. I love that determination. But tell me about the story, though.

So the story is about this young mom who moves to Manhattan. She's in the throes of postpartum. She's just had her second child. She doesn't know what she's going to do with her life. She's debating, you know, how does she get back into the game? How does she find herself? How is she going to also be the mom she always wanted when she didn't have the mom she always wanted? So there's just a lot of doubt and a lot of insecurity, and she ends up meeting this hugely successful mommy influencer who kind of takes her under her wing and shows her Manhattan from like that point of view, where she's going to like weddings, branded dog weddings, and underground mommy supper clubs, and Fashion Week, crazy, you know, Parisian vacations. And so, so her life gets turned upside down, and she really gets like engulfed by this woman who is a narcissist. And the dynamic, it's like I see it a lot in YA novels, these like obsessive friendships, but I don't see it in adult women's fiction. And I really wanted to talk about what happens when you fall, you know, under the spell of a narcissist because nothing feels better than when they shine their light on you. You're like, I'm mommy's favorite. She chose me. I'm the one. And that just high is so addictive. But when the light goes out on you, when you stop feeding them, it's just like you're completely— it's just eviscerating. And so I've had those relationships and they've taken me out of my life and my relationship and my family. And I've had to face a couple of things like my addiction to this need for external validation. And also my own codependency. And so I really wanted to talk about that in the book. I really wanted to like get into what that is and like, do they want to fuck each other? Maybe that could be part of it.

That could be.

Do they just want to be, you know, best friends? Do they want— what is it? But you almost don't know because like as women we date each other. Do we even really know? You want to be them, you want to engulf them, you want to like swallow that person whole.

So the thing about the narcissist though, friendship is just— and narcissism in general. So let's just talk about that because I know you also said you had a narcissist mother. I have narcissist family, a lot of them. But with friendships, it's like, how does that look and how can we avoid that? You said you cut it off because they say like you're cutting off the narcissistic supply when you stop giving it to them. But like, what did you learn from that?

Well, I still do it and it's like, it's crazy because I've spent my life judging women who let men treat them like shit or who will jump through hoops for a man or, you know, whatever it is. And I've always been so judgmental, like, "Pull your life together. Why would you spend one second in that kind of a relationship?" And it was almost like this, like, stepping outside the matrix moment when I was at my book launch and I was kind of going off about this female friend. And my publicist looks at me and she's like, "Well, you'll be friends with her again. You'll do it again." We're going to have the same conversation all over again. And I thought to myself, oh my God, I am that girl. I just do it with women. So I think I do have a pattern of it and I've collected these narcissists. I collect like mean mommy types because I want some desperately to like win my own mother over. I want to have this corrective experience. I'm seeking it out. This book is me sort of tackling that issue, but I can't, I couldn't possibly sit here and tell you that I'm, that I'm healed. I just maybe like have psychically killed these women in my books.

Do these women know who they are though? I know you said you'd have to move, but do they think they know who they are?

No, I don't think so. I don't think narcissists see themselves, which is amazing, which makes them so fun to write.

They're so fun. They'd just be so happy that they're even maybe in the book, right?

Oh my God, yeah. It's a classic. My mom, she's like, "Don't believe everything you read." Because your mom—

No, she loves it. You're right. That's the thing that is so, so interesting. They don't know. They don't really care. Like, they don't really understand it. But it's like, I think it's just really healthy. Like, you kind of working out yourself in the books. And then codependency is another thing. How would you explain your codependency? Because we try to talk about it. It's such a harder concept to— because there's a narcissist and the codependent. And I think we need more language around it too, because I think narcissism is also a spectrum.

Well, my therapist always says, she's like, "You're the least codependent codependent I've ever met," because I never invested in Jason's drinking. I was like, "Kill yourself. I mean, if you're just going to drink," like, I didn't like get— I didn't start making it about me or, you know, his drinking is hurting me. He just one day told me he wanted to be sober and I was like, "Okay." But I never attached to that in any way, which I don't know why. Jason and I are both kind of codependents, which is interesting, and it plays a really— it's—

so there isn't really narcissism, just codependence. I have that too. Oh my God, that's so funny. This is the relationship I'm in now. I hadn't really thought about that, but that's kind of what it is because we're not— we're both, yeah, a little bit codependent. How do you handle that?

Well, I'm like, tell me about you. Don't tell me about me. Tell me about you. Talk about you right now. Don't talk about like, well, I'm not doing anything to you actually. So like, that's a lot of our conversations when we're fighting.

Seems like it's healthy. I like this. I mean, I'm sort of down with your whole thing. Do you enjoy this process of writing the book?

I loved writing the book. I loved it. When I was writing the book, I was like, this is what I was meant to do. Like, this is truly what I was meant to do. But I hated the math of trying to figure out how to write a novel. I went from writing nonfiction and short stories to writing a story that had to last 300 pages. That was tricky. It helped once I had an editor come in and say, like, no, you need to, like, earn this decision. Because in memoir, you don't really have to earn your moves. You're like, I went to Morocco to meet the women who wove the rug in my house because I thought that they might have answers for me. You don't need to, like, earn that. You're just like, well, that's just Jenny being fucking Jenny. But in the novel, it's like, if a woman's, like, about to, like, cheat on her husband and like sleep with this other woman. You kind of have to earn that.

I'm going to ask you, Jenny, next the 5 questions we ask all of our guests. There are quickie questions. Okay, ready? Very quick. What's your biggest turn-on?

I think my biggest turn-on is somebody who's like in control and can like get something done. Like, I love a guy that speaks another language that I either speak or don't speak. I think it's so Hot. I love feeling like, oh, he's got this handled.

Biggest turnoff?

Cheap. When somebody is cheap.

So not hot. What makes good sex?

What makes good sex? That is a good question. I don't actually know. Um, no, what makes good sex? Honestly, like usually, like I would say like sex with somebody you don't know at all. Like, like a stranger. Not that I've known, I've had that in years, but I just remember like, That was so exciting and fun because you literally don't know the person. I'm like, Jason, I want to open a place where people just go in and have sex with robots. He's like, I think that's called prostitution. But doesn't it sound great? You have to have no emotional connection. You can just hook up.

Yes, that exists. Robots, you know, sex workers. Yeah, because that's spontaneous. What I was saying earlier when I was trying to therapize you, it's that newness. That's why it's so hot at the beginning because spontaneous. It's new. You don't know what's happening.

But also, I don't have to be like intimate. Like, they don't know me. That's like why for me it was always safer.

This could be a hot thing for you guys to fantasize about together. Okay. Not actually make it happen, but like watch porn together when that happens. That's true. These are just the little sparks. Okay. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

I would say have more sex, like, and have, have more relationships. I think for so long I thought I'm not getting involved with this person. Or like, because I only wanted to be involved with people that like I thought I could be in a real relationship with. And so I— there were a lot of missed opportunities for me where if I were going back now, I'd be like, why didn't I just like fuck that guy or girl or whatever it was? Like, why did I— why was I like, I'm too good for this?

You know, I want to circle back to that a minute. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

I don't know what— I don't know. I feel like I— there's so much for me to learn.

I don't know, maybe communicate about it, talk about it, I think. Yeah, got it. Can we go back to something you just said? So what do you think kept you from just doing it then, like, in your— just having sex with someone?

Because I, like, you know, for me, I thought of sex in, like, sort of a negative way based on the fact that my mom was so sexualized and was constantly sleeping with people. And I just saw it like, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be her, and I don't want to have a bunch of boyfriends or, you know, girlfriends, whatever it was. I don't want to be that promiscuous or that easy in a way. Like, I looked down on her for, like, giving herself over to people is like how I saw it. I was like, oh, you know, I'll never be like that. And so I was sort of snobby in a weird way. And now I'm like, why didn't I just— I mean, for my own pleasure, why was I depriving myself?

Yeah, that's so interesting. Because the messages you got— well, I think going again, circling back, this the messages you got around sex were really confusing. And so by having your mom, she was so sexual in front of you. And since there was no sex education, no one was telling us about what it meant to be sexually empowered or sex positive, or that it was okay for women to have pleasure and it was okay for us.

Oh, right.

We grew up in a time where it was like that we couldn't ask for what we want, that it was more about the men asking us for—

yes.

And so it was a different time.

And I just like resented the men because they took my mom away from me. So I was just like, Fuck that. You know, I just didn't want anything to do with it.

And so you went the other direction, which it sounds to me like now that we're talking, that there is probably a lot about your really early interpretations of sex in the home that you just went the other direction. You're like, I'm not even going to be sexual. I'm not going to allow anyone to have me. I'm not going to be that.

Yeah.

I don't know if you've ever done any stuff around that, but that is probably something that, again, this stuff gets locked in at such a young age that might protect you from like family systems therapy. Yes. That's such good stuff too. I love all of that. The family system is really interesting. So it sounds like maybe something got lodged in there that sort of not allowed you to really feel your— the depths of your most like sexual self because there's something that got linked in. It was like, you can't be sexual. You know, we all—

I'm like in a kiddie pool with a bike. Exactly.

Well, thank you, Jenny.

Thank you for sharing so much, for having me. I'm so glad we finally got to do this.

I know, me too. I'm really excited. Tell me where people can find find you. They can find the book.

I'll be— yes, I want to have you on my podcast. It's called Word Wheel with Jenny Mullen. Yes, I need to have you on.

Will you be in LA at all? I'm not going to be in New York this summer, but I'm coming to LA.

I have an event, um, at the Grove on July 11th. Jenny Mullen on Instagram, and the book is City of Likes.

I'm so happy for you, really. Congratulations. I would love to meet you and see— I would love to be on your show.

Be honest. Okay, please, I'm gonna contact you.

Okay, thank you so much, Jenny.

Thank you so much.

Appreciate your time. Have a good night. Bye. Bye-bye. That's it for today's episode. See you on Friday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter @sexwithemily. Oh, I've been told I give really good emails. So sign up at sexwithemily.com. And while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. If you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating, or relationships, call my hotline, 559-TALK-SEX. That's 559-825-5739. Or go to sexwithemily.com/askemily. Special thanks to Acast for powering the Sex with Emily podcast. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.