No Shame, Just Sex

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You're listening to Sex with Emily.

Yes. So shame to me is a feeling around not being able to live the way you want because of judgment or something that's been ingrained on you that makes you feel that you're wrong. I grew up in a small town in Ohio. It was very homogenous. It's a very homogenous place. It's ingrained to see how your gay friends are treated in school, in junior high or in high school or, you know, I was the only black girl in my grade. There is a thing that comes up, a deep seated thing that comes up. I think for most of us today.

On Sex with Emily, we're talking about shame, which is a powerful word. And it keeps us from fully enjoying and exploring ourselves in the bedroom. It can stem from past trauma, a conservative upbringing, religion, the media, or even society's expectation of us based on our gender. Whether or not we realize it, shame plays a part in our relationships. And it's a huge reason why we cheat and we fight and we even stop ourselves from Having the sex life and love life we truly want. In this episode, we unpack shame. What causes it, how it affects us differently, and what we can do together to keep shame from ruling our lives. Because believe me, once we point it out to you, you're going to realize it does. And then we're going to get rid of it. Today I'm joined by Erin Tailman, also known as Dating Advice Girl. She's an author, inclusive dating empowerment coach, and a guru for digital dating. We talk about her best tips for dating during COVID 19. How to write a great profile. Send that first message, and it's time to actually just pull the trigger and date online. Especially if you haven't. We also talk about her experiences with shame, how she's navigated these obstacles with her clients and the exciting things she's working on to navigate dating and relationships in these really strange times.

Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them, in a bygone day. Hey, Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Cause my man E here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute.

Being bad feels pretty good. You know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com youm can check out our website. We've got tons of blogs and posts to help you have the sex and relationships that you deserve. And all social media. We are Sex with Emily across the board. Erin, nice to meet you.

Oh, nice to meet you, Emily. I feel like we've, like, been in the same circles for years, but. And it took the quarantine to bring us together.

Exactly. I love that. Cause I feel like the same thing. I feel like we should have met. But how are you doing during this quarantine? How are you holding up?

It's been tough. I mean, luckily, I'm a little bit of a workaholic, so I've been very busy with dating content. It's very popular right now. Obviously, people are like, what do I. How do I date during the quarantine? So I've been very busy putting out content specifically about that dating during the quarantine, being consensual during the quarantine, virtual dating, online dating. But personally, to be honest, like, I'm a total extrovert. So this quarantine is rough. And like so much of my life, both professionally and personally, is around people and crowds. And so it's been a huge adjustment.

Yeah, it is an adjustment. I see what you're saying. It's like, yeah, I'm an extrovert as well and also a workaholic. So I can't decide, like, okay, I can't be extrovert. So now I'm going way into my workaholicism. It's like, that's all we can do.

So crazy, right? I mean, I would like to come out of this quarantine having rested a little bit because there's some people who are living their best life baking and sleeping. And I'm like, you know, I would like to do a little of that. So I gotta find a balance. I gotta find a balance, you know?

Exactly. I want to post pictures of my making baking bread and the fact that I just learned French, but none of that has happened. I haven't learned any new skills. You're the dating advice girl. And I can imagine that right now in the quarantine, much like talking about sex and dating, people need your help. Now, I want to get into that, but first, tell me, how did you become the dating advice girl?

So everything started around 12 years ago. So this was pre Tinder, pre YouTube, pre Instagram, like, pre. All these things, which I'm totally dating myself here. Like, dating myself. But, yeah. So I basically started a blog. At the time, it was very binary. Why are there so many double standards between men and women? Guys can have sex and girls can't, and then girls get shamed for it and guys don't. It was very binary. Long story short, at that time, it kind of struck a nerve with people. And for some reason at the time, there weren't many female voices talking about those differences, which led to me writing it for a column, which led to me speaking at colleges around dating safety. Once the app scene hit, then I started to really nerd out because I was single. I. So many waves and ebbs and flows and relationships. I've been in the field quite a bit, as you say.

Well, what I love is what you just said is because you've been doing it for 12 years, so you've been dating, not dating. Probably in relationships, out of relationships. So right now, what's the status today, Aaron Tillman? What's happening today?

Yes. Yes, Emily. Yes.

Yes.

So I'm in a beautiful, beautiful relationship. Actually. I'm actually a weird success story. Not weird because, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, online dating sucks, or dating apps suck, but. So I met my partner of the past year we met on Tinder. It's a beautiful relationship. That was unexpected. He's a trans man. My whole life. I'm 40 years old and my whole life I only dated cisgendered men. Although my friends would say that he's very much on brand with like all the guys I dated before because he looks similar.

Everything's very similar to a lot of my guys because I liked a more effeminate man. Anyway, all that to say love is love. And we met and that's a whole other podcast, actually. Our whole, like how we like, you know, first date and all the unknowns and things. Even though I've had. I have trans people in my life and I have non binary people in my life in all these categories, but to date somebody that you've never dated before is a different experience for sure. But he's so. He's a bit of an activist. He's a director, producer. He's so forgiving. If I don't know all the terms. He's so supportive and it's beautiful.

Love is love. I agree. Like, I think it's who you're attracted to. How wonderful that you can be open and so dating a trans man. Can you just explain that to us?

Yeah, totally. The correct term. I should. Let me go back. I said trans man. Trans masculine is more accurate. He doesn't consider himself a man. He is someone who's always been masculine of center. So, you know, for. I know. I love you. Let's break it down. Let's break it down. Layman's just.

Cause I got to thank you.

So my boyfriend was assigned female at birth. Assigned that gender at birth. AFAB is another term for that. My boyfriend. And so many people like him have not felt that gender that they were assigned. So. And you know, the thing is, I mean, I think at this point, 2020, I think we all know people who just were not what the stereotype is of the gender that they were assigned. Right. Someone who was maybe a female person who was more masculine or a male person who was more feminine and all these things. And so I just feel like in the last several years, let's say less like five, let's be honest, last five years, maybe around the last few years, people have really been able to embrace who they really are.

I think so too.

Right. It's just like, this is who we are. This is who I am. And you know, it's been an interesting process for myself too. Just going back real quick. Even though my boyfriend, his name is Jet, he Presented masculine. He went through the transition process a few years ago. And so even for him, it's been an eye opening experience for me dating him. I mean, there's, there's definitely been, especially initially, even though, again, I've dated people who he's very similar to in a lot of ways. Like, if you were to like line him up with all my exes, they all look alike a lot of ways. But all that to say you, there are questions that come up around, what does this mean about me? Does this mean that I, I'm someone I, you know, didn't expect to be? Who I thought I was? Is that, am I not that person anymore? You know, am I gay? Am I this? Am I that? And so, I mean, I don't like to claim categories. I guess some people could put me in certain categories. But. But also, weirdly, a lot of my queer and gay friends are like, no, you're, you're totally a straight couple still. Because I'm femme and he's masculine anyway.

I know I get the masculine feminine. And then also I feel like, why do we have to like, you know what I mean? Like, why? Yeah, right now it means where you're at now and you're in love and you're in a good relationship. So why does it matters where I'm at? You were just on Tinder looking for someone that you were attracted to and that's you found and it works.

Back to that real quick. Thank you for saying that. Like, right before that, I had gotten out of a really weird relationship that ended really bizarrely. And I can, I was like, you know, I, as a dating coach, right, it would be, it would be bad if I didn't do some self reflection. And so I was like, you know, what are my patterns if I'm dating a similar type of person in terms of personality and I'm not liking it, what am I doing wrong and what can I do to change it? So I really took a hard look at myself and I'm like, you know what? I really just want to meet new people who are aligned with who I am and what I'm interested in and what kind of fun I want to have. And so I went on Tinder mainly to meet new humans. I switched it to men and women. So ordinarily he wouldn't have popped up, but because he was in the category of non binary trans, something other than a cisgendered assigned female at birth feels that way. Like, I was born a girl feel like a woman because I switched it to Something more than that jet popped up. And so I was open to that. Now, not everyone is. And that's not everyone's orientation. I mean, some would argue that I've always been some form of queer, maybe a little bit gay. I just never met someone that I wanted to date. I mean, there's a whole argument there. And I'm not suggesting that someone go against their orientation.

What I love that you just said is, and this is the advice that I think is such great advice, is that when you go through a breakup, rather than rushing out there to try to, like, heal your wounds so you don't have to feel and you don't have to learn anything and start just dating or get under to get over or all the things that we do, you actually did the work, stopping and saying, what can I learn from this? Like, hold up, there's a path pattern. Maybe my picker is broken. I'm repeating, repeating the same cycle. And by even checking that box or, like, moving the bar over and saying, I'm open was what brought you the person that you're in love with right now. And so just real quick, though, about the work, like, what did your process look like after your last relationship that brought you to where you are now in a healthy relationship?

Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So it basically got to a point where I was just tired of the pattern I was in for my clients that I coach. That's the point they have to reach. Like, I can just like you. Like, we give our clients tips and advice. If they're not ready to get to that place, then there's nothing we can say, right? We can give a nudge. We can give, okay, here's some steps. But if someone's really not ready to take some sort of new leap or try something new to break a pattern, then there's no way we can help them. So I just hit a place where I was like, I am not happy with what I've been choosing. And a lot of it is a choice. Choosing meaning. I don't mean that in a shamey way, and I don't mean it in terms of any sort of violence or aggression. You don't choose that. What I'm saying is sometimes we see a pattern or we see a certain type person that we're attracted to, and we'll maybe ignore certain other things. We make a choice there. So I was making a choice to date, but, yeah, I just saw a pattern, and I was like, okay, you know, maybe I should, first of all, stop dating for a while. So I Took a little bit of a break, you know, which again, being an extrovert is very difficult. Like, I like to be out. I like to be meeting people, you know, that's why I'm really good as a dating coach. I know all the places. I know what to do. I'm out there all the time. So I took a break from that.

I get that. I took a year off from dating.

And I was like, also, I mean, I think that. Oh, a year. Good for you.

Yeah. Wow.

That's way longer than me, Emily.

I don't know how I did it. I was really busy being a workaholic. I'm like, plug in work.

That's a really good way to take a break from dating. But also a good excuse, though, to sometimes avoid things. Listen, I'm not. I'm not calling you out.

It's okay.

I've done it too.

I've been avoidant for sure. But no, but I did the work, so I'd love to hear that you did that work. Just. I love to emphasize that it works. So speaking of, like, all these, like, the breaking our patterns up, what do you think we need to do right now? Like, what is your best dating advice for people right now? What we're facing with COVID 19.

It's a tricky time. Having said that, everybody's on the apps. I'll repeat that. Everybody's on the apps. So, you know, there's a lot of clients I've had who are like, I've tried it. I've tried all the dating apps. I've tried all the dating sites. I hate them. There's nothing but bad people on them. I'm like, okay, we'll give it another try. Because literally everyone's on it. So there's a lot of people who weren't on them before who were on them now. So the pool is bigger, which is great. I also would say that it's really important to choose an app that is going to work for you. So, again, orientation matters. Lifestyle matters. There's certain apps that are better for certain lifestyles, better for certain genders, better for sexual. Certain sexual orientations. But really, the thing is, you're putting yourself out there because a lot of it. Listen, you know, a lot of us do meet people at social. In social settings, whether it's bars, whether it's clubs, whether it's organizations or volunteering and all these things. By the way, volunteering is still happening, so that could be a really good way to meet people, contribute to society. And I'm not saying Use it for dating. I'm just saying you can go out and that's one real good way to meet someone who has some level of integrity, has a spirit of giving, which is great in terms of personality traits, and you would meet them face to face. But let me go back. Dating apps are a great place to meet people, and it goes back to choice. It's really important to be selective about what you're putting on your profiles, who you're swiping with, who you're messaging, and who you might set up a virtual date with. All of those things are very important. Those are things that we make a choice about. So just because we're in COVID 19 doesn't mean we should be more loosey goosey with how we date. You know, it's really important to still have standards and to have your non negotiables in place. Only a few, though, like someone being like not six five, hopefully you can negotiate exactly wiggle room with height or eye color or something like that. Although you'd be surprised in the coaching realm. But, you know, have a few non negotiables. But also it's really important to just know that there's a lot of options out there. Right. Also, I just want to say really quickly, part of the game, quote unquote, of dating apps is to know that you're gonna run across people who are the worst.

The worst.

You just are.

And you do that if you were at the bar meeting them. Right? There are bad people everywhere, right?

Yes. Thank you, Emily. And so it's really important to remember that. And so, you know, my client that I was just saying last week that it was her first time on dating apps, and so I was walking her through everything and I was just. She's like, oh, but, like, this person didn't reply back to me and, oh, no, like this person swiped for me and I don't like them. I was like, listen, welcome to the world of online dating. Welcome to the world. You are now fully immersed into the world of dating apps, but that's part of it. So as long as you can embrace that part of the process, you could meet somebody that's outside of your normal social circles that you wouldn't have met ordinarily. That is the point about dating apps and dating sites. It can be some work. You got to put a little time into it, but you're meeting people that you wouldn't have ordinarily met, which is amazing. That's an amazing thing. Even though the digital stuff can be annoying and stressful all these things. It's a new way of meeting new people. And so it's a good thing to embrace that.

Yes. Okay. I love it. Just because I'm right with you, that people like, this is the time to take a risk. All your thinking that you believed about online dating, just try it out. So thank you for explaining that, Aaron. I know you aren't asking.

Yeah, you have nothing to lose by trying. Also, a lot of the apps have a premium service that's either you pay weekly or monthly that basically can cut your time in half. So I'm not endorsed by any dating sites, though I do consult with some of them sometimes. So I'll just use Tinder as an example. They actually. They have an option. I think Bumble has it too. But you pay per week to see who's already swiped for you, so that cuts your time in half. It's also a huge ego boost to go on the app, open it up and see who's already selected you, and then you can go through and be like, oh, these are the people who think I'm cute.

Amazing.

Who of these people might I be interested in? It makes it so that you're not just endlessly swiping your life away and just feeling like, oh, my God, I hate this.

Right. That is a great advice, too, because I think, yeah, if they're new to the dating game and they can also check out your site, your information. Because you give a lot of tips about this as well. Correct. About dating. Because I want to get into our topic because today I want to talk about shame. I want to do a deep dive into shame with you. And I want to know, like, how have you dealt with shame in your life? And like, first off, how would you even define shame? Let's start with that.

What does shame mean to you?

Yes. So shame to me is a feeling around not being able to live the way you want because of judgment or someone's. Someone putting a feeling on you or something that's been ingrained on you that makes you feel that you're wrong or that you're gross or that you're not enough. That's shame for me. That's my definition of shame. In my life, I've been very lucky in the sense that I have a loving family, especially my mother. I've always felt supported by her emotionally. I like to be a straight Shirley, to be honest. I've really tried to. I've had the luxury of not having to feel too much shame in my life. Having said that. Having said that, I just started talking about. We started this by talking about my trans boyfriend. And there is so much that comes up. Not in the shamey way. I'm so proud of him. And if you see us on, like, social media, we're always, like, posting, like, we're real goofy together. So we're always posting, like, a bunch of stuff, videos and photos and stuff. But there are moments where there are people who've known me my whole life, certain family members as well, like cousins and things, that there's a feeling that comes up of, what are they gonna think now? Do they think that I, like, I'm not their equal now? Or is there some judgment they have about me? And so it's not. I guess it's not in the shame realm. It's adjacent to shame. The feeling.

Shame adjacent. I was just wondering because it just keeps coming. I feel like it's like, sneaky. Like, shame is so sneaky, like, you don't even realize it. And you look around, you're like, o, that's why I'm not telling one. And the more you reveal it, you're like, oh, like, that's where the light comes in. Like, our darkness is like our secrets. Right? And then you reveal it. Like, I'm so shameful. And then it comes out. So I've just.

Well, and to your point, growing up, I grew up in a small town in Ohio. And, you know, it was. It was very homogenous. It's a very homogenous place. I grew up southern Ohio. And so, like you said, it's ingrained to see how your, you know, gay friends are treated in school, in junior high or in high school or, you know, I was the only black girl in. In my grade. And then I think in my school there were like a. Like five of us maybe. And I remember when, like, there was this new black boy that, like, moved to our school, and everyone's like, you should date him. And I'm like.

Right.

I'm from Michigan, so I get the, like, upbringing. Small town. Yeah. It's just so homogeneous, which is why I end up in Los Angeles.

Right, right. But so within that, though, I mean, upbringing is a big part of this too. It's like, you know, if you grew up. If someone grew up in a super inclusive place where everyone's welcome and everyone's celebrated, like, I think there's less feelings of. There's like that feeling doesn't come up as quickly, probably, than if you grew up in a place where here's the one way we do things. Here's the one way you're supposed to do things. If you do things differently, we're gonna look at you funny. There is a thing that comes up, a deep seated thing that comes up. I think for most of us, and I definitely have experienced experience that around dating, sometimes like around sex, definitely around career. You're not doing something traditional.

Yes, I have shame around that too. So we're both in non traditional careers right now. I've had to deal with like a lot of that. You know, my mom's still like, well, it's funny enough because my mom says she's got a show about dating, right? I'm like, okay, mom, if that feels better to you, we don't have to go into the sex. I mean, she's a little better, but it's been 15 years, so she's kind of okay with it. But yeah, there is some shame to that and explaining like what we're doing or there's some judgment. We're gonna take a quick break and we come back more with Erin Tillman. Shame and dating.

Shame. The feeling is painful and it's powerful. Shame stems from a belief that you have failed or you're inadequate in some way. In a lot of cases, or most cases, it's a result of trauma or like a narrative that just playing in your head that was used to control your actions or set up as an almost unattainable idea of perfection. Now the reactions to shame are just as varied as the causes. In some cases, what we do is we'll hide, we withdraw. We keep things that feel shameful super secretive. In other cases, we channel this energy into like, anger and we get mad because we think like, I'm angry and I deserve this. Or we might even turn into a sexual desire and we actually find some kind of pleasure in replaying a trauma by being shamed. Why is this my sexual desire? And it's part of my shame. It can all get wrapped up in so many things. But the thing is, in most cases, the result can be a strained relationship with ourselves and with our loved ones. And while it serves us to have healthy boundaries, beliefs and values, the most common repercussion of a strict controlling or religious background is that we somehow fall short. And then we find ourselves in this same loop. We feel humiliated and, well, ashamed that we can't meet these expectations. And that just becomes this vicious cycle. So truly the healthiest thing we can do for ourselves is create realistic expectations, reset our beliefs. Once we understand what they are and where they came from, our beliefs about sex, about everything really. And allow ourselves to be human. Like we're human and we are not perfect. Nobody's perfect. And forgive what we might have been taught is wrong or sinful. We might even remember when we were taught it, like maybe we were children and we're still carrying it around. Because this dialogue could be religious or cultural or maybe in porn you saw something, you're like, well, I don't look that way. And it could just be a one time thing. I hear this all the time. Or one partner shamed you and then you're carrying it around forever until you release it today. That's what we're doing. We have to remember that we can reprogram these beliefs. We must. There is a way to move through the shame. And it's okay to practice self love. In fact, this is what's going to cure us all is self love and empathy. In fact, the antidote to shame is actually empathy and self love, but also self love. You know, the kind of self love I'm talking about, touching ourselves, all of that is okay. That's how we learn to love ourselves. And that's how we learn to have a healthy relationship with sex, with our bodies and with others. Let me talk to you about my experience with shame. First off, I think we're never really done peeling back the layers of understanding ourselves and of shame. When I look back at my relationships early on, like let's say the relationships in my 20s, when I think about shame, I think I could have had such a healthier relationship if I was was able to actually be honest with my partners at the time. And I knew all the things I know about communication, all the things that I tell all of you, I would feel like, wow, you know what? The sex is getting kind of boring. I'm not really into it. And so what I would do is I would blame myself. I would think that it was my fault the sex was bad because I couldn't masturbate with a partner. I'd think, well, maybe they don't like me. And if I bring it up, it's probably my fault. My thing is I blame myself for a lot of things. Like I have a very negative self tape that plays in my head which is just filled with shame. It's just shame, shame, shame. And so I think that I was so afraid to confront the problems in a relationship and afraid what a partner would say, that I just was like, everything's fine, everything's good. I'll fake orgasms and I'll just be the perfect Lover, whatever that means, and the perfect no pressure girlfriend. But truly, that wasn't doing anybody a service. I could have said, listen, I'm having insecurities right now, or I actually can't orgasm. And then I would have been able to figure out how to do it at a much earlier time in my life. The most common themes that I've seen with shame from you in the last 15 years and from all my listeners is that somehow it's just wrong to desire sex and to even talk about sex is wrong. It's taboo. We're going to be blamed for it. Other people aren't going to like us, that sex is just wrong across the board, and masturbation is evil and wrong, and we're going to go to hell, and we shouldn't have to masturbate if we're in a relationship. Or the common themes we're religion. You grew up in a home where you were programmed that sex in any other way besides procreation is wrong or evil. And so as a result of that, a lot of you can probably relate to what I'm saying right now. You might be in a relationship right now where you're thinking, yeah, we've never talked about it before. We won't talk about sex. It's. And I think that now that you see and you've been listening to sex with Emily, or even if this is your first time, you might be realizing now that that's actually the only way you're gonna get through the shame and you're gonna get to the other side of it, which is actually having a healthy sexual relationship, is to actually talk about it and to say, I know that maybe we've never done this before, and I know this might be weird, and we might even both have beliefs that it's not okay to talk about sex. But I think we can agree that we both want to be great lovers to each other, or you maybe want to be a great lover to yourself. So it's a great time to start and think, what kind of conversations can I be having today to break through my shame spiral? I'm shameful in certain relationships where I've had to be more vulnerable now, like in people that I'm dating, I realized that in a lot of ways, I was still holding my heart back. And in some ways, I realized the more open I am with that, I'm gonna get hurt and not everyone's gonna love me and I'm gonna get rejected. And what I've had to learn is being real and vulnerable about what we want is actually the greatest act of self love. And if someone is going to reject me and they're not gonna accept me for that, I have to first say that's okay and love myself because I was to able doing a great act of self care by asking for it. But also they're sending you a message that they're just might not be the right person for me. The first step in flipping the shame script is just to write it down. Write down what those things are, those things you think you cannot say, and then infuse that, replace that with some empathy, some self love. So it's not keeping us in our shame spiral. And this way we can move forward with love.

I want to hear what other work you've been doing. I know you've been doing a lot of work around consent as well. Like you, you wrote a book on consent. So let's talk about what it is and what inspired you to kind of delve more deeper into it, which I think is we need this right now.

So really to boil it down really simply because I know, I feel like there are a lot of people who are like, oh my gosh, consent, it's overwhelming and it takes the sexiness out of it. So consent is basically a checking in to see that you're on the same page. Like in layman's terms, that's the basis for what it is. Are we both, both in agreement that we both want this thing to happen now?

Let's just talk about basically like digital boundaries, like right now, like dick pics and this kind of goes into it, but about people thinking, should I even maybe this is. Should I mutually masturbate online with somebody? Should I get naked? Should I do the digital? Just all of it, like, how does it apply? Crossing boundaries and you know, it can.

Be overwhelming if we overthink it. Really the basis is someone enthusiastic about what they're going to do with you? Are you in agreement? Are you both enthusiastic about what is being proposed? Okay. That that's the basis for it. Okay. And I don't want to say, I don't want to minimize anyone's anxiety around all of that. Especially if someone's newly single. Someone's newly single, they're like, oh my God, the quarantine. COVID19 I'm going to get on a dating app. I'm gonna start dating now. Oh my God, now I gotta be. I have to worry about offending somebody. I get it, I get it. The point is though, the point is, is that if somebody is enthusiastic, great if there's a scenario where you're proposing something where somebody's like, I don't know, or, like, if there's any sort of hesitation in that person, the new normal is no. Hesitation equals no.

Yes.

Which is fine.

I love it.

It's about getting. Yeah, it's really about getting to know the person. Taking the time to understand, like, what someone's likes and dislikes are, you know, in my book. And I do a. I just did a virtual dating during quarantine webinar, and during that, we're talking about I love this yes, no, maybe lists, which is, once you, you know, get to know the person, there's certain things you can discuss in terms of sex and intimacy. Oh, do you like to be kissed on the cheek? Yes.

No.

Or maybe. Do you like to be kissed on the mouth? Yes. No. Or maybe do you like to be touched in, you know, in the genital areas? Yes. No, maybe. Do you like, you know, like, spanked, whatever.

And then you find where your yes is. Yeah, I love that. I love trolls.

And there's a way to make those fun, too. It doesn't have to be so clinical, because I think part of the nervousness around this is that we've made the topic very serious. The MeToo movement happened, you know, a couple years ago. The height of it, the MeToo movement. That's when I wrote my book. That's what inspired me to write my book. Although I've been, again, a dating coach at that time for 10 years, and I'd been talking about consent a little. That definitely heightened it, even though the Me Too movement was. It started more about workplace harassment and things. I mean, I was like, as a dating coach, how do I not talk about consent?

You have to. And I want to go back to one thing you said, because I think this is, like, the crucial moment, is that not only if someone else is enthusiastic, but getting to know our nose. Like, I feel like, as a people pleaser, and I'd like to say I'm a reformed people pleaser, but I'm not there yet. I still am in many ways, just with everybody. And so to even know, am I saying yes because I want to be liked? Like, is it really a yes, or is it a hell yes? And if it's not a hell yes, well, then it's a no. And then going from there thinking, okay, well, if I don't actually want to, to, let's say I just met this person. We've been chatting online, and now We've got a FaceTime date tonight. And do I want to get naked with this person? That is definitely we have to be hell yes. And then pay attention if somebody's like, are you sure? Come on. Like, I'm not going to see you for two months. Think about it. Take a pause and say, am I doing this because I want to be liked? Because the other thing, what's confusing the next layer of that is being able to say no. But then, like, because I think what we do is we either think it's a hell yes, or it's a, nope, I can't. No, I don't want to do it. And then it's true that the other person might be like. Cause we're so afraid they're gonna be like, well, then I'm done. I'm hanging up this call. You don't wanna get naked? I'm ready to get naked. What are you doing? It's quarantine. We all might fucking get Covid. The world might end. But then to be able to say, no, not right now, or right now, I'm feeling it's a no. Tonight is a no. But I'm loving getting to know you right now. So you're still letting that person know that this isn't a no forever. I mean, we don't know yet, but no. And it doesn't have to end in this moment. We can still find other common ground. Now, if that person can't take that, I always say, if they're like, well, fine, then I'm out. Well, good, they're doing you a favor. Then let them go find somebody else who's ready to go along with their plan. And I had to learn that. It's such a somatic experience too. Like, for me, like an embodied spirit learning to figure out, like, where is my yes if I'm feeling a no? Like, maybe my chest is getting tight, my stomach is like, I'm uncomfortable. Like, it took me so long. From somebody also who's been sort of was shut down. Had to learn to open up. Like, where am I feeling things in my body? That's again, more a practice as well.

It's really important too, that we are okay hearing no on the other end of that. Listen, I think as, first of all, as Americans, we don't like no. Okay. Which is not okay. That's a conditioning thing in our society. I don't like it, but it is a thing. I think everybody, most people I know, they hear the word no, and it's like a. Ah. Like, that stings a little bit. We have to Be okay hearing no sometimes as well. And we have to reframe no as okay, maybe this person. Like, again, if we're getting a soft no from somebody, that means they're not enthusiastic right now. But if they're showing. If they're saying to you, oh, you know, just not this moment, but I'm interested at some point. Take that no gracefully. It's really important to take that no gracefully. That person is being honest. They're telling you, why would you want someone to lie to you?

Right, Exactly.

Just be like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. And then something really bad happens. Right. They're showing you that, oh, my gosh, like, I'm not quite ready. I respect you enough to tell you the truth about myself right now. And I think that there's maybe some sort of future here. So right now is a no, but. Oh, okay. I'm gonna listen. I'm gonna. I like this person. I'm gonna. They're not a no. They're a no right now, but I'm gonna take that no and hope. Hope for the. Hope for the best.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Because we're so afraid that if someone says no to us, something's wrong with us, like, so we push it. Cause, like, I can't take no because I'm being rejected and that's painful, that I'm not loved, or you're banning me like, that I'm not accepted. And then a lot of times we're not okay saying no because we want to be pleasers, and we're so afraid, especially around sex. I feel like there is a lot of shame around that. Like, I, as women, we're told, at least I was raised that all in a very, you know, heterosexual, heteronormative world that. That with men, that sex was about pleasing men, it was about what they wanted, and. And everything I did was about their pleasure. How do I look sexy? How do I perform? About, you know, and it wasn't about what I wanted ever. I had to learn that through the process of, you know, do probably do my work. Who knows if I would. You know, people are still learning this every day, but it's almost like we have shame, too. Women, it's sort of a shape tied into shame, too. Like, I didn't perform or I wasn't a great lover. So the more I say yes to somebody, then I don't have to deal with my own, like, shame or my own insecurities around not being enough. I mean, do you feel like that?

I hear that, but then the flip side of that is you say yes when you're not ready and then there's some whole bunch of other crappy other to deal with. Yeah, but no, I feel you. I mean, I think we're all. We're a lot. Again, let's bring it back to women, right? There's so much shame around sexuality, women's sexuality. There's like this heightened, heightened performative sexuality. That's okay. And porn and things, which I am not anti porn. And I'm actually friends with a few sex workers and people in the realm. And then there's this other side that's like, no, no, don't be sexual, don't be sexy, don't wear anything. Because if you wear something that's sexy, then something bad could happen to you. You asked for shame around those things, right? So then no wonder, no wonder we have so much that we have to work on in our. In ourselves around. We meet somebody. We're human beings that are sexual. We want to be intimate and sexual with them. But then, oh, crap. All these messages I've been getting about, oh, well, you're a bad girl or you're a bad person if you want that thing, or that's dirty. We don't know body part names exactly. Don't look at ourselves. Half of us haven't had like adequate sex ed at all. You know, there's so many layers, right?

Yeah. And so how do you deal? So I'm curious, how do you deal with that right now? Because what's been so shocking, astounding to me is after working as a sex educator for 15 years and then leaving Michigan 30 years ago, and then having like a niece and coming up who's like 19 and was my intern last summer, and I thought she came out from Michigan and I thought, oh, it's 2019. It's different. Sure enough, Aunt Em, teach me about blowjobs, teach me about this. She didn't know about orgasm, you know. Cause it's the first time she actually tuned in. There still is that performance thing. So what I'm assuming is a lot of your clients right now as well, you probably still have to deal with them saying like, just feeling that they have to be pleasers or that it's wrong or they're not going to be likable if they don't perform. So how do you break that? I know people have to be ready for the message, but how do you work with people on that as well?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know, the main point here is self development. So, you know, I officially call myself a dating empowerment coach. The point is to empower my clients to feel better and more confident. Right. So whatever that means for them, whether that's just to put themselves out there digitally on dating sites, whether that's sexually all the things, it does take some self work. I do feel like, you know, there are, there's so many, you know, like yourself and other sex ed colleagues of mine who have so many amazing like, like exercises, some that are like, look at, sit in front of a mirror, like open yourself to the world.

And look at your body parts and love your body parts. And you know, it's almost like a re education of what our bodies are and loving your body and what it looks like on social media. You'll see pictures of vulvas like floating around and how different they all look.

I love that.

And I feel like I first saw the variety of vulvas, like maybe the last five years of my life.

Vulva gallery. I think that's one that I follow on Instagram and I'm always like, oh, the vulva gallery. Yeah. Cause you're like, I didn't know there was that many. They're all different. They're like snowflakes. But we are so ashamed. Walk around feeling like we are somehow broken. Because you've seen this too. Because we've been in this same amount of time in the sense of like porn. I don't think there was as much vulva shame 15 years ago before porn became as there was other shame. But now they're like, oh, now my vagina's broken, now my vulva's not right. And I've seen them in porn, you know. Yeah. Because they're cheating.

Not hair and not hair and like, you know. Yeah.

So just accepting of that and like.

That'S where, you know, first of all, there's a self part of it. And second part is partner selection. I think it's really important that when you're choosing partners and intimate partners and you know, life partners, that it's really important that you choose people who aren't going to make you feel. Feel bad about how your body looks, how your body smells. I mean, listen, I have some stories around that kind of stuff where it's like body chemistry and like smell like odor. Chemistry is a real thing. And you know, I remember I said to a, to a partner once way back, I was like, I don't think. I think there's something you don't like about me. And he was like, I gotta be honest, I don't like the way you smell. And I was like, you know what? Like, and this was like. He even said he's, like, even coming out of the shower, he's like, there's just something. And I was like, that's real. So hurt, right? It's so hurtful to hear. But I was like, you know what? I'm so glad. I mean, listen, we can tell, like, intuition or like, you can. I'm very into also. You can tell someone's not really into you.

Yeah.

I was like, I know he's not. So I'm like, just tell me what the deal is. I'm so glad you told me, because I cannot imagine spending years and years and years and again for everyone listening. That person's doing you a blessing. The person that says goodbye to you or breaks up with you or says you're this or you're that. Thank goodness. Because what kind of life would that be to be with somebody who's either half enthusiastic. No, not enthusiastic. Or just thinks you're gross or whatever? Like, it's just not fair to that person and it's not fair to you.

We're gonna take a quick break, and we come back more with Aaron Tillman and dating.

Okay, so we've got some Instagram questions from my listeners. I'm talking to Erin Tillman, dating advice girl on Instagram. These are from my listeners. I'm thinking, I'd love to get your advice. Help me answer some of these questions. These are some from our followers. We asked some questions. If people had things around shame, they had questions for us. Angela says people's reactions to hearing about how many people you slept with can cause shame. And the gender equality here is a huge issue. For lots of women, their body count is supposed to be low. Well, for many, though not all men, it doesn't matter as much. What are your thoughts on this?

Literally, this is how I started my career.

I love it. Didn't.

You know, and it was like, that's my blog, you know, 12 years ago. My rudimentary blog. Here's the thing again. First of all, I don't know if. Is it anyone's business how many people you've slept with for one.

Nope.

I don't know if that's relevant. I guess if. If somebody asked you. I don't know. There's so many people who say, just lie about it. I don't like to lie about that stuff. But also, I just feel like if it's gonna. If someone's asking you, first of all, like, what's the context that they're asking you. Because there is a double standard. Because we got to be real about it, right? There is a double standard with this and someone might judge you. I feel like my instinct wants to say that anyone who's going to judge you for isn't someone you should be dating anyway. But again, I just don't necessarily feel it's that. That it's anyone's business because we are realistically in a judgmental society.

I agree. The reason why we are asking, usually why people ask is because we want to know where we measure up. So do you have more experience than me? Do you have less experience? I have to step it up. And all I want to say there is is that first off, you could have slept with hundreds and hundreds of people. And I will tell you from experience, I've slept with people like, oh, he's been with so many people and he is not the best lover. So just because you've been with so many people does not mean you are a great lover. You might just be hitting and Quidditch all over town all day long, but that does not mean that you know what the hell you're doing. That's one thing and the other. Right? It's so true. I'm like, astounding. Maybe you should just slow down and pick one. And in fact, I've had some wonderful several lovers who've been who were married for 10 years and they came out of a relationship where they were like two people maybe, and it was beautiful because they knew how to pay attention. They knew how to be communicate around sex. That's how you became a great lover. It's not by a bunch of skills and not get a lot of notches on the bedpost. It's about learning to communicate and be present. The other thing I say when someone asks you that, and I feel like it's kind of a younger person's thing, maybe more in your 20s. You're asking. Although it still comes up. I just say, you know what? But right now I'm focused on the sex that we're having and it's awesome. So how can we. Like this is the only sex I'm remembering right now is the sex that we're having. No, that's a perfect ex. Literally what I say, like, shut them down. Shut them down. Because you are just using it. And the standards we're basing on is not anything that's actually real evidence or means anything anyway, because usually it's to shame completely. Okay, so we've got another One here. So this is from Leilani and she says growing up Asian American and Catholic, like the shame game is real. Sherilyn wrote, growing up in a Christian household being told sex was only meant to be shared with one person. So there's so many more people who have programming from religious or cultural belief systems that they desperately want to break. I hear this day in and day out. So how do you advise people like, what are your thoughts? How do you grow and create new beliefs for yourself in order to move beyond the shame that is created by religion? And this is something that, oh God, it's so tough. How do you deal with people dealing with this shame about. Because all the time people like, oh, I can't masturbate or I can't do this because it's wrong in religion. How do you help people? Look at that.

Yeah, I mean, it's like the age old question. I mean, seriously, it's really awful and I'm really sad about it. And I've had a lot of. I feel like so many things in my life have gone against what it is to be a Christian or a good Christian and so, or you know, in certain, whatever the religious path is. I do feel like they're again back to shame. There's so much shame there. I do feel like if there is a way, like we're so lucky in Los Angeles, there's a lot of very inclusive religious institutions or like, like Christian churches and things here that are more inclusive and like, except gay people not accept. But you know, it's like all are welcome. I feel like if there's a way to find your spiritual community that is more inclusive in those ways, that's gonna be helpful because even though it feels like, and trust me again, growing up in small town Ohio, it does feel like all insert religious group here are like this and it's not true. The challenge is to find other people who are more accepting within your religion or within your spiritual practice. Because there are people who aren't just like, oh, shutting you down or making you feel bad about these things.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the best answer.

No, that's awesome. Find your tribe, find your people. Which is like, yeah, and you might have to leave your town like we did. And it just the knowing of saying, okay, you know what.

I feel right now? Like something in me feels wrong about what you say. Like, I think it's wrong to touch myself because of, you know, masturbation. I was told that it was wrong and if I have a partner, I shouldn't need to masturbate. What do I do with that? I'm like, okay, well take a moment that's sitting with you, maybe think, okay, where did I first hear that? Oh, it was church. Or is my parent. Does it still serve me? Do I believe that or did someone else believe that? But now I'm a 30 year old woman or I'm a 40 year old man. I get to choose if it still serves me. And does it still. Is it still who I am? And you gotta like, separate that. And that takes some work even realizing. Cause then his words on autopilot, like, master, masturbation's wrong. Sleeping before marriage, sex is wrong. And if I don't decide to initiate, I'm a slut or whatever. The things that you believe. And then you go, oh, is that true still? And it's like checking it and then finding your people, right?

Like, where is the source? What's the source of that idea?

Find the source.

Also, I just want to say, in the. In this COVID 19 era, masturbation is the safest. Right, sorry, it is. And listen, I follow. Like I've been following Planned Parenthood. They've been saying some amazing, amazing things around. Like, you know, you can get Covid from kissing. At one point though, they were saying you can't get it from vaginal sex or anal sex. And then someone in Japan it like, like covet showed up in their sperm. So never mind. So guess what?

Never mind.

The best, safest choice right now is masturbation. And listen, who knows how long we're gonna be quarantined? And so, like, I think this is a really, really good time to get comfortable with our own bodies at home, in the privacy of our own homes. Really quick, Emily, real quick. I forgot this is so important. I just wanted to say back to shame. So when you're meeting people, there's a lot of people. Since the quarantine is being lifted in different parts of the country and in different countries. I've already heard some clients tell me that they're feeling shamed for not meeting up with other people in person. I just want to say real quick, everyone out there again, that that also is consent. That also is someone respecting or not respecting your boundaries. It's a very real thing to feel nervous about meeting up with a stranger you've never met in person and then proposing for you to be intimate with them in person when you're not comfortable. And we don't know enough about COVID and we don't have a vaccine yet, et cetera. So again, if someone's not concerned about your safety and your feelings around you being safe, that's a hard no. That's a hard no.

I love that. Preach that. Because really, it's a hard no. And you know right now how they're gonna feel about your safety going down the road. Like how are they gonna feel five years from now if you commit to them? They just showed you how they feel, that they are all about themselves and their own pleasure and immediate immediacy to their getting their needs met and not about you. Love this, Erin. Okay, Erin, thank you so much for your time. This is awesome. I love talking to you. We could do this for hours. I have to ask you the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. Ready?

Excellent.

All right, Erin, what is your biggest turn on?

Biggest turn on is.

Well, I'm going to go five love languages and say acts of service. Okay.

Biggest turnoff.

Rude, rude jerky people.

What makes good sex?

Taking things slow and really being present with your partner.

Something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships or one thing.

Yeah. That porn is entertainment and there's no one way to do it.

Love it.

Number one sex tip, be present and be consensual.

I love it. Thank you so much, Erin for being here. Talking about shame and sex and digital dating. You follow Erin, look for her digital dating during quarantine webinar. Check out her book the Consent guidebook. Follow her live dating during quarantine on Instagram at datingating advice Girl business with Emily. Find me on SiriusXM radio Monday through Friday, 5 to 7pm Pacific. It's on channel Stars 109. Get your questions answered there. Essentially, the doctor is in. I am there for you. You can get a free 30 day trial if you'd like@sexwithemily.com.

And even if you don't get it, you can still just call in at 888-947-8277. Please rate us and review us wherever you listen to the show. We so appreciate it. Spotify, Soundcloud, itunes, Google Play helps us, helps the show. And thank you to my awesome team, Ken and Kristen and Elisa and Brian, our interns. And Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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