Porn vs Reality

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What is that? That's like a bunch of women with.

A lot of hair around their neck.

Scar and they put on the strap ons, you know, and they're like this army ready to fuck the men.

Well, that's a whole different issue. The reality is with sex addiction, it's a disease that occurs in secrecy. So when someone's looking at a lot of porn and they're keeping it from their partner, likely there is something to hide.

Butts are like cats. They must be coaxed and seduced every time. Butts know when what is touching them is paying attention or being a jerk.

Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions.

Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. All right, you've probably heard me Talking about celebrating 15 years of sex with Emily. Well, today we're going to continue the Celebration with three of my popular guests from over the years. These were so great to listen to. And I love that they're all together here in one episode, because first I talked to the legend, porn star Nina Harley, who's super open about her experience in the adult industry. She's thoughtful about her life outside of porn. I mean, so many of you want to know, like, what. What are porn star life's like outside of, you know, having sex for a living. And she's incredible. I love this conversation. Then I talked to Dr. Marni Breaker, and she's a licensed marriage and family therapist and a sex addiction specialist. So we talk a lot about, you know, what's the difference between enjoying frequent sex and actual sex addiction? Because we can sort of conflate sex addiction with porn. And while porn can be used as part of an addiction, you know, simply watching porn doesn't mean you're addicted. A lot of you call in. You're like, well, I watch porn every day. Am I an addict? Or. I think my partner's addicted to porn. And, you know, since porn is so much more readily available right now, there's so many questions and so many theories. So we're gonna break it down today. That's why I'm giving you Dr. Breaker and Nina Hartley so we can see the difference in this episode. And then I talked to Erica Lust, and she's been on the show a few times. She's a Swedish erotic film director, screenwriter producer, and she's essentially on a mission to create ethical porn. What does that mean? We have to listen. We get into her philosophy and how it actually shapes the films that she creates. So if you've been looking for porn that actually speaks to you and is hot for you, especially as a vulva owner, you're gonna like what Erica has to say. I loved visiting these conversations. So you're going to love all this.

I have an amazing woman sitting here in the studio with me, Nina Hartley. Hello.

Hello.

Yay. I love the clapping. Nina is if you don't know, because everyone knows who Nina is. American pornographic actress, director, sex educator, feminist author. You've been in how many films?

About 900.

900 films. And you're still doing films?

Oh, absolutely.

And everything. You're activists. You've done, done so many things. And I'm so in awe of your career and all the amazing things you've done. And we're going to talk about sex tonight. I mean, sex with Emily. But if anyone, I almost feel like I should. I know. How about that?

Isn't it awesome.

I know we're going to get into the stuff, all the things that you've ever wanted asking it. And I feel like so many of my listeners, they need tips. They need advice for keeping their relationships interesting and how to have a spicy sex life. And I love oral sex tips. I always ask my guests and I feel like you would have really good oral sex tips for women and for men. Tell me what you're up to now. What are you working on? Nina.com, which is amazing. You have that URL, right?

Yeah. Nina.com is my pay site and it's XXX. I do need to. I've been doing this 32 years since I started dancing and 30 years in porn. And I am now old enough to have children in their 30s. I have been working, putting more energy into branching out just in terms of talking and teaching because I've been a feminist my whole life. And so I remember the early days of the conversation about pornography and sex and sexuality and sexual expression from the 70s and now I have 40 years perspective on how's that working for you?

Right, exactly.

So I'm the age of a lot of young people's parents, but I'm not a parent, so they. So I'm not icky.

Right.

So I wanted to give back to the community. I want to talk to young adults about what I wish I had known about sex when I was their age.

What is. So when you say young, you're talking about people in their 20s.

I'm sorry, for me, 18 to 30, I could, I'm 54. I could easily have a 30 year old child without it being weird. Two of my favorite playmates were born the year I graduated high school and they're 35. It blows my mind, but I see them as peers because they're. What do you mean?

Your playmates? People that you play with, have sex with.

I am not a monogamous person and I'm also queer. So I have a large circle of poly, bi, queer, non monogamous.

Right.

Polymorphously perverse.

Exactly.

So I live, I live a very sexually open lifestyle. And what people get confused about who are not this wired this way is they could use open with anarchic with like no rules at all. And what it really is, it's a. It's a kind of sexual orientation that works best when you keep it within people of your like orientation.

Right.

So people with whom I play, and for me play is almost always some kind of sexual intention if not actual genital contact are people who share my sexual values, my sexual outlook. Most of my overlaps sexual philosophy enough that we can cohabit the same space and share some kind of mutual good time. And I don't try to do that with people whose sexual values and boundaries don't mesh with mine. And the biggest thing I could tell anybody as a young adult is figure out what this is you can do alone while reading. You don't even have to do it with anybody. It's just something inside yourself. What do I seem to be? I'm strongly pulled toward monogamy. I'm strongly pulled toward non monogamy. But I feel guilty about it because of what I've been told. So am I really monogamous and wanting a fantastical dream or am I actually a non monogamous person burdened with guilt? Hmm. So we have to investigate.

Exactly.

So and on and on. So my playmates, and they're 35 and they're born the year I graduated high school. Like, get the F out of dog. Oh my God. But, but I feel as. I feel more alive than ever. I wouldn't go back and be 35 again if you paid me. Because at 35 I was entering the most unhappy period of my first marriage.

Okay.

Where I was craziest and most absolutely, I've been unhappily married. I'm happily married now. And I have, I have insights I can impart to people. You know, and also the whole thing about personal responsibility. Stop feeling like such a victim. I'm sure you talk about that with people all the time. Yes.

Feeling like a victim in their own life. You mean in their own.

Especially when it comes to sex. Poor me, poor me. And you know, pull up your big. Pull up your big big person panties.

Right, exactly.

And, and we're not talking about actually having been victimized, obviously. We're not talking about violence.

No.

But where you know what you do, what you do when you're crazy, you.

Keep taking the wrong partners.

You get this pattern that you act out again and again. You realize, and after the third time it is you.

Exactly. Like, what's the common denominator here? Oh, okay, it's me. I know I fully blame myself for all of my mistakes now, like, I think it's so funny in all my relationships, I'm like, oh yeah, this is my pattern. And people don't stop, but they don't stop and look at themselves. But I think it's interesting. So you've been. Have you always known that you were non monogamous or when you Were okay.

Well, if I'd had the words in high school, I would have recognized that I was as. To quote Reid Mihalka, a poly bi slut.

I love Read, read. Sandwich, right? We love you, Reid. Yes, we love you, Reid.

Read about sex.

And I never had a monogamous fantasy in my life. I always fantasized about them. I never fantasized about him, and I always felt strange about that. So when it comes to sex, I feel like Spock, if you have friends who are very, very strongly gay, they'll tell you, oh, I knew from first grade. Oh, I knew since I was five years old. Oh, absolutely. And you know people like that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So my sexuality is as strong and born in me as their gayness. But because it's. I didn't have language for it. I didn't know that had to do with relational orientation.

Right.

Because poly is. And monogamous is separate from gay or kinky or bisexual. It says, how do you want to run your romantic life? And I need a wide variety of people with whom I can be sexual. And I have a husband. And people will say, nina, why be married if you're not going to be monogamous? And I say, well, my husband's my through partner, so all the sex I have is intentional.

Right.

We negotiate it. We are doing it deliberately. It's not because Selban got drunk. So each time I'm with someone. That's a beautiful bead. Maybe this is a carved ivory bead. This is a Murano glass bead. Or this is a Hopi Indian bead. And I string all those beads on the through relationship I have with my husband. And they. For me, that balances out.

Right. And is he also. Is he. Does he see other people as well?

Nothing. Seriously, I'm. I'm polyamorous. He's non monogamous.

Okay.

But the orientations work well enough that we can make it work. My primary. When I got out of my first marriage, I knew that I would be single until I was dead and have cats and lovers before I would ever consent again to be with a possessive partner.

There's enough for everyone. Right.

And as a poly person, a is a, is a. Nothing else can be A. And nothing else can be. And you can't. They don't compete.

Exactly.

So if there's a, for example, another slender, attractive, accomplished, intelligent, young brunette woman over here who can rock the plaid pants, which I no longer bother trying to wear, and if there's someone who, on the surface of it, looked a lot like You, I would not be confused because you're you and she would be her. So you vibrate this string in that harmonic resonance way and she can't pluck your string.

Right, Exactly. They're jealous and they're possessive and so I totally understand. Do you think that there's a lot of people that would be non monogamous or polyamorous if they could, but they don't even think that's an option because they have to. Monogamous. I think a lot of them are suffering through monogamy.

I think monogamy is an honest orientation. I think a solid 20% of people are truly monogamous. One partner is all they want and they're devoted their whole lives and it's not a burden. And they are it. This is it. I met your mother when we were 15. I fell in love and never looked at another woman since. I've met enough couples like that to know that for some people is true. And then there is 20% of the people like me who are fully acclimated to a functioning, healthy, non monogamous relational style and have a good partner and are okay with that. And the other 60% are struggling with some balance of it. I think more people could be more open and fluid than are now if it were considered a healthy option right now. You know, monogamy is the only thing that's healthy and normal and mature and respectful. I, I would never put up with my partner. You, you let him do what you let her do. What it's like not letting.

Right.

So clearly I can't be with someone like you. And I. And I tried that. I tried very hard. I fail at monogamy. I completely.

I did too.

I was, I ended up being a cheater. I ended up being a liar. It was crazy. But this is why I want to strangle them people and say, well, you know, I want other partners, but I don't want my partner to have anybody else inside. Then you are too immature for this. You don't get to have the cookie. Because this is a two way street now. Because in our culture, people get stunted emotionally at very young ages around sexuality and pleasure and what do I get to have in the world? And then they grow up to be big people and they interact with another adult person and then a trigger gets pushed. All of a sudden they're again, a very young child and they don't want to have to deal with their stuff. You have to do it first because I'm not going to. It's like, I thought I was dating a grownup.

Exactly. No, I understand. Monogamy has never worked for me. Really. And I love hearing you say this because I still think I try to get into relationships, but I used to be a cheater. I'm not. I'm a form cheater because I don't really commit now. And if I do, I'm like, okay, this is more open. But it's something that I never wanted from a young age. I've never wanted that.

What's wrong with you for not wanting it?

I'm like, well, one day I'll want to get married. Well, one day I'll want to have kids. You know, it'll all happen. And I think it's so good. But no, at this point, it's just not going to happen. I mean, I kept waiting relationships and it doesn't.

Right. I kept waiting for the to want kids. And it never. The joke now is at the factory, they forgot to wind my biological clothes.

Exactly. That's what I always say. I'm like, I don't have one. I love kids.

Love them, love them.

But let's go back to your child. So you grew up in Berkeley, California. Growing up in Berkeley, then what were your parents like? Were they.

Oh, my parents are totally alt. My father was a blacklisted radio personality, so I grew up after he'd been black. He was one of the last people McCarthy got. And my mother, they had had a pretty modern marriage. And my mother was going back to school to get her master's and she had a job too. And so I grew up in a very avant garde female breadwinner, male homekeeper household. 20 years before that was popular. So that was very difficult for everybody.

I'm sure it must have been.

So I was the youngest and so I had a lot of time to myself to pursue my own interests. My parents were all the 60s, deeply into therapy. All right, girl, I can tell you everything you got. And in 1969, they found Zen Buddhism and started studying that seriously. In 1973, my mother quit her job, became full time students. And my mother is a senior priest at the Zen center in San Francisco.

Oh, she is. She still is.

I'm so grateful because being 1969, it could have been EST. It could have been hard.

I was going to ask you if it was asked.

It could have been silent. Thank God it was Zen.

No, that's what I was going to say to you. Thank God.

So, yes, I was a lonely child. Yes, my parents feel very bad about that. But the positive thing out of all of that is that they show by their example that you can their life have been upended by my father's black lives in the. And so they showed me that a person can cast about and find the best way to make an honorable and meaningful life for yourself according to your own needs. And for a proto queer kid who didn't know that word yet, it was very, very liberating because part of what they also looked at was sexuality. And then there was a feminist movement where I got all the. Some of the source material because these brand new ideas. And so there was before the anti pornography feminists took over, the whole branch of the whole wing of feminism was actually quite open discussion about sex workers rights and women's bodies beautiful. It was this really great very. So it was very empowering the thinking about it. But I was younger enough that I hadn't become an adult in that environment. So I was reading people's projections on an utopian way of being around sexuality. Young enough that I grew into it. I was quite codependent for a number of years. And so in my secret mind I wanted to be braver like Betty Dodson in my real life. I just couldn't quite break that pattern into until I finally did at 40. It's like, oh, I'm holding myself back, right?

It's always us holding ourselves back. We're the only ones holding ourselves back. I know, absolutely that's true. So you went to school, you graduated from Berkeley and then you became a nurse or you went to nursing school.

I graduated from Berkeley High School, which.

All my friends went to. Berkeley High School. Are the most interesting people. The way they eat, the way they talk, their relationships.

I know. No, they're pretty cool people. I was in the theater department which was fabulous for me and I discovered pornography when I was 14 and was reading the books by the bedside of the school cool 70s swinging couple that I babysat for regularly. And they had a waterbed and they were very. It was 1973. 72, 3 and 4. So the height of it I was so I found the Joy of sex and the Happy Hooker. Maybe want to be a prostitute that very day. And I still, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, wouldn't that be great?

Could have been a prostitute. I think that's usually.

Well if it were legal business, you know, and you were educated. So I know some of the anti pornography screed is what they don't like about porn is that it portrays women as horse by nature. Setting aside for the moment that the reason you watch porn is to watch people in sexual action as opposed to any other kind of movie. I agree with them that not all women are horrors by nature. But she says, raising her hand, some are right, exactly. You know, some of us are suited for this job. So some of us are suited to be law enforcement, some of us are suited to be lawyers, some of us are suited to be accountants. And I'm suited to be a sexual intermediary.

How do you think that porn today is impacting, like young people who are learning about sex and sex?

Well, I think that that's the only place we're seeing sex. It's certainly impacting them in a way that is going to make good sex that's much harder to get to. If we could counter porn with actual age appropriate, comprehensive sex education that is safety and pleasure based. So before you're watching porn, you should be watch all the porn you want, consume all the media you want to consume. This is where women accuse me of being a secret conservative because I believe in personal responsibility. So I've had the life that I've had, I've had the experiences that I've had, I've consumed the media that I've had. I've had the media messages into me that I've had. Eventually, when we're alone together in a room, it's just you and me and how am I going to be? Am I going to be a dipshit, ignorant, lame ass cunt, right? Or am I going to be a human who says, wow, you know what, I'm really uncomfortable now because this is new for me, or wow, you're really beautiful, or golly, I'm really scared, or you know what, I really like this idea back at the bar, but now that we're here, I really want to keep my clothes on. Or you know what, can we have some.

Whatever it is, whatever it is, women.

Think they get in a situation or I owe it to him, or he bought me dinner or I'm too drunk and people just don't get that.

So if you as a person think that a human partner is going to like what a movie is doing, then you are not ready to have a partner in your bed with you. You have, you are. You need to back up and get acquainted with your own body and not just on talking guys. Here's what I tell women. Don't bother getting another person in bed with you until you on your own can reliably give yourself an orgasm, preferably a couple of ways. But it's only One way reliably know that I can do this.

How do you anal? Okay. Anal sex, huge right now. I mean, I feel like in the last 10 years, I don't even feel like you'll talk about like when I was in high school ever. I didn't come up, didn't know it, no guy ever like you ventured there. But now, and I do believe it's because of porn that they think, oh that that's what it's expected of me. Men and women, right?

Well, certainly. And again, there is what we feel porn is quote unquote telling us. And then what I'm. What I'm telling. What I'm telling you is, is we don't learn to drive a car by watching Vin Diesel, we don't learn about Spycraft by watching 007, and we don't learn about actual sex with a human person by watching porn. We may get a couple of cool ideas with a wrist flip or something. But in the end, ladies and gents, good sex is sex that pleases both people and makes them go, you know what? That was really great. I'd like to see you again. I feel good after it. Not bad, not guilty, not shame faced, not apologetic, not sorry for it.

Let's first talk about men and women. They've never had anal sex. How would you.

First, Only people who should attempt anal pleasure are those who are sincerely interested in it for their own own sake. So butts are like cats. They must be coaxed and seduced every time and they cannot lie. You cannot make your butt relax. You cannot make it, want it what it doesn't want. Butts know when what is touching them is paying attention or being a jerk, including ourselves. So if one wants to investigate anal sex, first one needs to invest in a high water, high natural fiber diet to make things all regular. Okay, if you have bowel issues or.

Poop issues, that's not gonna be the thing for you yet.

No yet, thankfully saying it. So first I have to be interested in it for myself. Can't do it to please anybody. It has to be because it's pleasing to you. It's like, oh, hey, wait a minute, cool. So there's that. Then you read about it so you have some actual information. If you're a female, Tristan Tiramino's book is excellent. And if you're a male, Jack Morin book, Anal Pressure and Health is excellent. And just get acquainted with it and understand so much of the resistance to anal pleasure is cultural. To get to the point where you can touch the outside of your anus in a pleasurable way while touching the front of you and putting those two sensations together, that's 80% of the battle.

Don't go anywhere. There's more Sex with Emily coming right up after this break.

I have Marnie Breaker here. Marnie founded the center for Relational Healing. The website is L A C R H dot com. We're going to be giving that out again. And Marnie is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, the founder of the center for Relational Healing in West Los Angeles. And she also specializes in healing relationships that are impacted by the trauma of sex addiction, infidelity, and betrayal. And I am so excited that you're here. Marnie and I met at a dinner. Like, we were just randomly at a dinner, having a best dinner ever. Like, literally had a blast. And then to find out, like, what she does, and we were talking about what I did for a living, and I'm like, you have to be on the show. Because, first of all, she's genius. I mean, she started her own business, and she's just so much fun and a blast. Like, I know we're friends. Gonna be, like, lifelong friends. But also, I started thinking about the show. I really don't think in the 12 years I've been doing this that I've had a sex addiction specialist therapist on the show. If I did, it was a long time ago. And I feel like with everything going on right now, all these things happening, with all these allegations against a lot of powerful men in Hollywood who have been accused of sex addiction. But also the way porn's changed, how it's, like, infiltrated our lives. It's how a lot of kids are learning about sex for the first time. So there's just a lot to unpack with you, Marnie. Marni, you are the perfect person to be here and do with me. So welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Hi. Hi. Okay, so, Marnie, tell me, how did you get into sex addiction therapy, training, all that?

I fell into sex addiction training. I was in graduate school, and I needed to get a traineeship in order to graduate. Essentially needed, like, 600 hours. And so the only place that was really available to me at the time was Delano Hospital in Torrance, which was an inpatient psychiatric hospital. And so I worked there. And at the very end, they put me on the sexual recovery program and the National Trauma Center. And I never would have wanted to work in sex addiction. It's not something I ever would have thought that I would do.

You have, like, a History or.

Okay, no history. Nothing personal in my life, thankfully. And when I was working on that unit, I realized there was a huge correlation between trauma and sex addiction. And so I was able to really develop the empathy, I think, that you need in order to. To be able to work with that kind of population.

I thought it was one in three have experienced sexual trauma. Or is it any.

We're talking about. Well, it's any trauma, but also we're talking about men experiencing trauma.

Men too, One in five or something.

Yes.

So can you define sex addiction?

So the best way to make somebody who's. Who's not familiar with sex addiction understand it would be. It's just like alcohol addiction or food addiction or drug addiction. So it's basically engaging in some kind of sexual behavior. When you are acting in congruence with your own values and beliefs, when you're continuing the behavior despite negative consequences in your life, when you are making repeated efforts to stop, you know, you get caught and you say, I'm never doing this again. You find yourself doing the same thing the next day and also needing more. So tolerance and withdrawal are like the two foundations of dependency on any drug or substance or behavior. And so sex addict needs more and more and more to get the same.

People who say sex addiction doesn't really exist because there's no withdrawal symptoms. Isn't that people.

People do say that. And it's not the same as maybe what a drug addict would experience with like the shaking and really needing to go to detox.

But it's.

But sex addicts actually do withdraw. And you might see a lot more like psychosomatic symptoms and a lot of anxiety. But you do see shaking.

And they might replace it. Right. With something else. Isn't that kind of like part of it? I mean, it's really just trying to soothe ourselves. Right. Kind of mask a lot of emotions. Cause we don't really know how to deal with a lot of emotions. Would you say that a lot of it comes back to that? Whatever it is, however it manifests in the world, it's sort of other things.

Yeah, It's a maladaptive way of coping. Self soothing, trying to regulate oneself, trying to ground themselves.

Are there warning signs for sex addiction?

Well, there are two very different things. So if we're talking about sex addiction, you know, I actually wrote an article. I should send it to you, Emily. I gotta find it. But I wrote an article for single women about how to know what to look for. And when somebody becomes sexual or sexualizes a conversation really fast, that's actually a big red flag right off the bat, you know?

Really?

Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, sexualizing something very quick is an example.

Not like, just like, hey, we get a bone after dinner, but more like.

I'll give you a prompt example.

Steak looks like what I wanted. I don't know.

Well, yeah, that. Actually, I know what you were getting at. But, yes, that could be an example, but it doesn't have to be. It could be subtle. Years ago, when I was dating, I was on that JDate site, you know, many years ago, and this guy and I were talking. We were chatting. It was kind of late. It was maybe like 11, 11:30 at night. And he. I sent something to him, and he's like, can you call me? Like, he wanted to get on the phone right away. I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, but when I spoke to him on the phone, I actually agreed to get on the phone with him. Probably shouldn't admit that, but I did. I got on the phone with him, and he disclosed to me in that conversation that he's a sex addict. So. And I had a weird feeling as soon as he wanted to get on the phone so quick. There's, like, an urgency. There's an urgency. There's. You know, there's not a lot of boundaries. You can see that with sex addicts. Like, they push your boundaries. They're not really respectful when you're saying no or you're setting limits when somebody is constantly lying or keeping secrets. You know, even hearing about someone with a pretty significant trauma background. Not that all of them will become sex addicts or drug addicts, but, you know, it is something to be aware of and to see. How did the trauma impact this person? Now, as an adult, can you describe.

Some of the common sexual addiction behaviors? What that looks like when they're coming through and they've been addicted to prostitutes or porn or.

Yeah, so I'd say the most common would be porn. Compulsive masturbation, Prostitutes, escorts, massage parlors, strip clubs. Those would be the biggest top one.

So it's really not even with the partners necessarily with their own partners.

Yeah, no.

Sex addiction. It's always. It's really not like their partners are separate from it. We get so many questions. We're like, my partner watches porn. Is it a problem? How do we know if it's a problem? So I feel like a lot of times it's just also that women just have a hard time that my partner's looking at anything else that's getting Them turned on and it's not me.

Well, that's a whole different issue. The of the rest, the reality is with sex addiction, it's a disease that occurs in secrecy. So when someone's looking at a lot of porn and they're keeping it from their partner, likely there is something to hide. We're not gonna get into a whole conversation about whether or not pornography is good or bad. Exactly. But when you're in a relationship with somebody keeping a secret like that you have that you look at a lot of pornography and that you're masturbating into it, Even to the point where you can't really perform in your own relationship, that's a problem. And so, I mean, to get back to the person's question about signs, you know, I would say that when you're in a relationship or you're getting to know somebody who is incredibly secretive and they are not disclosing and they're not vulnerable, like, those are some big signs.

You know, not vulnerable about anything. Right.

Can't connect. Sex addiction's an intimacy disorder. That's what it is. It's not about sex.

And that's a lot of your work at the center for relational healing is intimacy disorders.

Okay.

Is addiction a physical and mental disorder, and is it genetic?

Addiction can definitely be genetic. I mean, you see it intergenerationally within families. So you will often see in my office, for instance, people that come in and there is a history of addiction. There is definitely a lot of research that does show, like, from a genetic standpoint, it can be inherited, but also that can be. You know, you grow up with a parent who has an addiction, and. And they have maladaptive way of coping. And you see that they don't know how to regulate and self soothe. And as a child, you kind of pick up on those things. And in terms of the attachment piece, when you are young and you're either enmeshed by a parent and smothered, or you're abandoned and neglected, that's gonna impact how you can attach as you get older. And it's gonna. It can often make somebody love addicted. It can make someone love avoidant. It can make someone sex addicted. I mean, there's so many things that can happen. It is, I would say, a physiological and an emotional disorder for sure. Because most people that have an actual addiction, even though we talked earlier about that withdrawal, they are withdrawing when they're not getting it and they're. For them, it might be incredible anxiety, panic attacks, depression. So that's the physiological piece that I'm referring to, people get headaches and digestive issues, and my clients are in tremendous distress. And it's both physiological as well as emotional.

Can somebody be addicted to love? Marnie?

Yeah, they call it love addiction, but really it's more being addicted to a person and to the attention and to the adoration and to the validation. And really, when somebody doesn't have a sense of self themselves, like they can't really esteem themselves, then they're looking to others to esteem them. So when they're getting lots of attention from somebody and they feel really great and desirable, like they're, they're on cloud nine and they're happy, and then if they lose that or the person they're interested in is not returning that interest or they're rejecting them, they could feel this is a person that literally can be become so depressed that they become suicidal. Like, we see a lot of love addiction in inpatient and intensive outpatient settings.

When is sex addiction different than just cheating in a marriage?

The reality is that one of the reasons that I think sex addiction loses some credibility is that oftentimes when somebody gets caught cheating or engaging in some kind of egregious behavior sexually, sex addiction gets blamed or it's often thrown out as the reason behind it. And the truth is that just because someone cheats does not make them a sex addict by any means. In fact, two different people can be engaging in the same sexual behaviors and even look like they're both addicts and one is not an addict at all, meaning that they are making a conscious choice to do it. They're not feeling guilt and shame after the behavior. They're not saying, I'm never gonna do this again. They're not acting against their own value system, whereas an addict truly is not. They might love their partner. They might believe in every bit of their core that cheating and betraying the person they love the most is actually totally wrong and horrible and you crushing. And they can't stop the behavior. They need to get that hit, just like a drug addict needs to get that hit.

But for most people, infidelity or people come into one of your programs, which I love that you have actually recovery programs for people who are going through trauma or through cheating through infidelity. Would you say that a lot of people in infidelity are sex addicts? It just seems like from what I hear, mostly it's more of like they wanted love attention from someone else. It wasn't so much of a sex addiction.

I do think that the reality is that people make conscious choices to cheat when they feel like they're not getting their needs met in a relationship, when they feel when kids come into the picture and a mother, a parent, like a partner is not so, you know, so much available to their husband anymore. To be there all the time, that often actually engages somebody in distancing themselves and starting affairs, getting it elsewhere. But that's not an addiction, right? It's a choice. And it's a terrible choice. And we see a lot of disconnect in our society and today. And instead of couples coming together when things are tough or when they're struggling, they're moving further and further apart, and people make that choice.

What kind of help can people get if they're seeing some signs of sex addiction in the relationship?

There are so many treatment centers available now and places that specialize in betrayal, trauma and sex addiction and infidelity. My center here in Los Angeles, the Center for Relational Healing.

Center for Relational Healing. Marnie's in la. It's amazing. You should go there, check it out if you're not, if you've had trauma, not just to hang out and say, hi, she's lovely.

Well, thank you. I will say that I have a phenomenal staff and I take such incredible pride in the work that we do. But we're not the only people, obviously, that do this work. There are certified sex addiction therapists around the country as well as abroad, and there are partner specialists. I'm actually a certified clinical partner specialist as well. And there's an organization that trains therapists to be able to work with the cheated or betrayed partner. It's actually pretty easy to find help if you get online and you do a Google search. And then the type of treatment you get really depends on the acuity of what's involved. Like if you've got a full blown sex addiction case, sometimes, you know, outpatient therapy once a week is not going to be enough. Group therapy is important. Twelve step programs, sometimes intensive outpatient therapy. It just really depends on what you're looking at.

Okay, well, I'm curious about the programs that you have because you have like groups for couples who are dealing with like, you have intimacy. Coaching and healing workshops for couples specifically dealing with infidelity, which I just find I didn't really know that that existed. And I feel like the reason why I thought this would be so relevant. I get so many for. Everybody knows somebody who's cheated, they've been cheated on. And we hear from people all the time who say, well, it's been A year and I forgave him or I let it go. And you can't rebuild trust on your own. You always need to get help for that because it's just not gonna come back. Can you define the difference between being a sex addict and a sex pervert? And I probably mean sex offender. I'm thinking or deviant.

I guess it would depend on how we're defining pervert. Because, you know, somebody who is, for instance, a voyeur who is looking at people, like peeping inside people's windows, things like that. Or someone who's engaging in frauderism, which is touching another person without their permission. You see that like in crowded rooms or like on the subway, where someone's rubbing up against you. And it can sort of be under the guise of, oh, it's just crowded in here. But it's an intentional, conscious thing to do that's perverted. And that definitely would fall into the. Under the category of sex offending, you know, sex offenders, addiction. You know, there could be people that have fetishes that are sex addicts, but I certainly wouldn't pathologize that and say that anybody's, you know, fetish is necessarily perverted. So I do think that they're pretty. They're pretty drastically different things.

Thank you, Marnie. This is amazing. So now we're going to go into some emails. Hi, Emily. I think I'm a sex addict, but I can't afford a therapist. I don't want my wife to know about this. Are there bibliotherapy resources or other resources I can access to treat my sex addiction? What steps can I begin to take on my own?

Thank you.

Lee, 48, Toronto, Leigh.

I'm so glad that you reached out. And there are resources. If you don't have the financial means to go and see a specialist, my first suggestion would be get to a 12 step meeting immediately. SAA. Go online to SAA or SA.org they are all over. There's phone meetings and computer meetings and lots of meetings in person. And you will connect with a lot of other people in a confidential environment and get a tremendous amount of support work the Steps. There's also tons of books out there that you can read. I will say that while I understand not wanting to tell your wife at some point, it is the secrecy that's gonna keep you from being able to connect to your wife and from really healing. So eventually I would consider letting her in and sharing with her.

Thank you. That is a great point. And did you say SLA like Sex and love addicts and others.

SLA is another one.

Okay, so you were saying S a A.

Yes.

Okay. So I think that that's just the key here. We think that these secrets, you know, like they say in Trauvi, you're just as sick as your secrets, that the more we reveal to others, we think that that's going to be the most devastating thing, but that's actually what heals us. So all these secrets and things that we can't deal with, especially with addiction.

Yeah. We see a lot of people recovering finally after doing the disclosure that weren't able to before they did a disclosure because they finally actually come clean and said everything that they were so terrified of saying, and they held on for years and then. And suddenly they're no longer walking around in shame.

Right, Exactly. That's like the antidote to shame. Right, right.

They're looking at their partner saying, you know, everything that I've done, you've known every awful thing now that I have done, and you still love me. And you're here like, oh, okay. You know.

Right. Cause we all kind of. A lot of us have a base. Many of us have a fear of abandonment. And then we do. If we have to pile onto an addiction that we're so ashamed of, like, it's just like this quagmire. But if you do reveal everything to your partner and they're still there, it's like, wow, you love me.

I'm not too happy.

You love me. Right? I don't have any more secrets. It's amazing. All right, more sex with Emily after this break. And thank you, everybody, for supporting our sponsors who help keep this show free.

Okay, I'm talking to Erica Lust, and Erica Lust is an extraordinary woman who started changing the way we all see porn. She's making female friendly porn, but that doesn't even work. I feel like that does a disservice because I want everybody to watch her porn. So ethically, consistently consumed, ethically created.

Yeah, all is okay. But then also, I've been through so many different kind of words or says that I've been trying to use during years. You know, I also kind of started out saying porn for women because I felt that we were, as women were, left outside the mainstream porn. So I kind of started that way. And then I got more into the say of feminist porn because it felt like, no, but I'm a feminist, and it's really about, you know, women behind the camera and how we participate in this and how we represent women. And then it Got more and more popular to talk about alt porn, alternative porn, indie porn, vanguard porn, artistic porn, ethical porn. That is starting to become. But I think all of these, they are really expressions of people's needs to find a new way of defining porn. Because we have been so, so used to the tubes online and nowadays it's like that's what we really think about as porn. But there's hundreds and thousand types of different porn that's out there. And I guess the best way of collect them all would be under like some kind of indie adult porn label, right?

Indie, adult, ethical. I just feel like when you start putting things like female or ethical people, like I don't want to watch porn. Like that'll be like ethical.

And with the feminist porn, the funny thing is that when you say that they go like, what is that? That's like a bunch of women with a lot of hair around their arms and they put on the strap ons, you know, and they're like this army ready to fuck the men.

And you go like, no, that's not.

At all feminist porn.

All I can tell you is that it is super sexy, hot porn that if I could have thought of the kind of porn I wanted to see before I saw your porn, it is the exact porn that I would make that I would want to watch. And I even sent one to this guy that I guess I such a hard time. He's my boyfriend, I'm really not great, so. And he was like, yes, I love eroticized porn. I'd be so into watching this with you because I just got your site, which is amazing. So let's back up and talk about why your porn is different. It's cinematic, it's so just beautifully shot. There's stories, but it's just, it's real. And the women are portrayed as very.

Authentic as human beings, not as, you know, blow up dolls. And the men are not portrayed as this kind of penetrative sex machines going aggressive there to punish, fuck and destroy all women on this planet. That is one of the things that I feel many times with mainstream porn, especially when I, you know, sometimes go to the tube sites and I start, you know, navigating around and I get pissed off when I see the kind of language that they are using. It's so sexist, so racist, many times even homophobic. It's like dividing people into these fetishized little groups and ah, so what do we do?

Is it kind of like if you can't fight and make good porn? Like I feel like that's what you're doing. And part of me is like, I really am watching your stuff and thinking about it. Like, I think I want to leave and go off and make one of your films because I want to direct something.

Yes.

Just like everybody needs to, in a way. Because what you're saying is we're trying to fight this huge machine, I guess, of who are the men that are making all this porn?

It's a very good question. It's a very good question. And I think it's interesting, an interesting point of view, because most of these men. Because obviously it's an industry driven by men. And sometimes, you know, people, they say, no, the porn industry is a very feminist industry because women earn more money than men. Because they think about, like five names of very famous porn stars that earns a lot of money. But then be realistic. Who earns the money in this business? I mean, it's the companies, it's the producers, it's the distributors, really. And if you think about the people making porn, then you realize that they are quite similar, even if they live in Budapest or Barcelona or Los Angeles or Buenos Aires or. But it's the same kind of man, you know, a man that's interested in boobs and ass and his drinks and his cars and getting into the VIP room with a big bottle of, you know, that's the kind of man who is making board. There are very few creative minds out there. Very few, let's say, film directors, artists, people with visions and ideas.

So my question is, is it like the tail is wagging the dog or. Or the dog wagging the tail in the sense of if more people were able to see the porn that you made and that was the porn that was out there, do you think that would change the way men and women, like, learned about sex? Because we know that that's how people are unfortunately learning about sex right now.

I hope so.

I hope it would change their mind. Not that I hope that they would learn from what is out there, but.

Do you know what I'm saying? I'm wondering if that's why. All I know, in the 13 years I've been doing, it's like no one ever asked me about anal before or squirting or just the things that came up that I know is directly related to porn. And we know that how they're learning.

It is very influential as a genre. Porn is becoming very influential. They are talking about so high number as a third of all the Internet traffic during, you know, some hours of the day, not always. Maybe of the night, but depends on where you live, you know, But a third part of all the Internet traffic that's huge numbers. And obviously, I mean, I know that you are into sex education. I think sex education is the best answer we have at this moment. We need to start sex educate the masses, all people out there. Schools need to take in great sex educators and to help them educate, explain the world to people growing up. Because sex matters to them. Sex is one of the things that matters most to them, you know?

Exactly. You grew up in Sweden.

Yes.

So you had like the sex education that's hailed around the world as the best sex education. Right. So you learned it wasn't just like one class for an hour. It was like an ongoing discussion.

Ongoing conversation since I was a little kid until, you know, a grown up. Up adult. Totally. We talk about sex as something quite natural. First it starts with, you know, the body. Learning about our bodies, different body parts, how they serve us and how we get pleasure out of them. You know, I talk a lot of times to people about the learning curve when it comes to sex. You know, little boys are starting to touch themselves and little girls are starting to touch themselves. And what happens, happens so many times is when boys does it, people kind of laugh and it's like, cute, look, he's. He's touching his little dicky and it's like kind of. That's normal because he's a little boy.

Right.

So he's trying out his masculinity. But when girls does it, they get this kind of, don't do that. And many times from the people most close to them, they're mothers, you know.

That'S their first message they get about their vagina is, no, it's private. Don't do it. It's dirty, it's wrong. And no one tells them, okay, now's the time to go have pleasure. They were just shut down at 4 or 5 when they were masturbating in the kitchen and told to go to their room. So that's right. Exactly.

And imagine how it would change if their mothers would tell them. You know, I know that that feels great, but maybe you should do it in your room instead of in the kitchen or in the living room.

Exactly. But encourage, not. Not shut them down.

Exactly.

And no one ever lifts them back up again. And then the next thing they see is porn. And then they're having sex with some guy making some weird noises that wasn't even coming from them or originating because they thought that's how they had to act.

Exactly. But also, that poor guy growing up, you know, nobody talks to him about sex, and he has a huge sex drive. And then he's been watching hundreds of hours of porn online, and suddenly he has an opportunity with a girl, and he's getting in there, and he thinks that he has to behave as a porn star because that's what he's seen. So he goes for choking her, and she, you know, gets crazy and screams and say, like, hey, what up? What are you doing?

Right. Why are you choking her? Right.

Totally miscommunication. And much of that is not. I wouldn't say that it's because of porn, but I would say it's because nobody tells them that the porn they are watching is an exaggerated fiction of sex. But it's not the same thing as having sex. Right? Sex takes a lot of time. It takes time to get to know your own body. Body, Another person's body. How you connect together. That's hours and hours of work and trying and, you know, figuring it out. And porn is like, bam, bam, bam. Four minutes. And then she screams. And there was only, like, penetrative vaginal sex. And that is nothing like real life. I know most women, I know, they need some clitorial simulations to come.

Right, Exactly. And we're not getting that at all. And then. And I think it's a disservice to. Because it's perpetuating what more and more men having sex, growing up thinking, like, yeah, they don't understand the clitoral symptoms. So let's talk about the porn that you're making, though. It focuses more on the emotional connection with sex. Not so much as much. I mean, of course it's physical, but how do you even explain it? Like, it's just like, yeah, that's what I want. I want you to. I guess it's the plot, but it's a story. But it's also. It's romantic. We're kissing for a while. Like, you're touching my face. I'm like. And then you could get into whatever. Yeah, I want that.

But it's. It's kind of. I used to say that it's all of it. I mean, the difference is really, if you compare it to mainstream porn, then it would be like comparing a fast food restaurant to a little family restaurant. You know, the whole treatment is different. It's different. You know, when I go to the market and I buy my ingredients and I think about what do I want to make and how do I want to set up the table? And, you know, all of those small details. And that's how I work. It's not only me. I work with a kind of big crew. We are around 15 people behind the camera.

15 or 15?

15, yeah. Most of us women, because it's something that I'm really pushing for. I think we need to have more women behind the camera. More women on set.

What could we do? I'm just trying to think if there's some kind of educational porn for younger girls.

Yes, but it's always difficult because obviously I am not allowed to promote porn. People under 18. And I don't know, maybe here in america it's even 21, you know, and there we have this problem again that you can drive a car when you're like, 16, and you can go to the army when you're 18. And you can drink alcohol here, I think 21, yeah, right. But in Europe, you can do it at 18.

I know it's much more liberal views towards sex. So my question also is we have women behind the camera. So what about the female talent that you work with? How would you say that that is different?

Different.

It's different for women, and it's different for men also, because we are all human for many.

And for women, how is it different?

And I do work with. I do work with people who work also in the mainstream porn industry. And I guess what is very different is the whole process. Because when I make a movie, it's more like any indie movie, you know, it's the same kind of ambient and the same kind of set. And then what I hear a lot from my female stars is that they feel very secure at my set because they are surrounded by so many other women, you know, because that is something that they feel a lot in. In the mainstream porn industry is managed by men. So most of the time they go to a set and there's only men around them. If they're lucky, there's a makeup artist, you know, it's like, so true. In my set, they have this kind of sisterhood feeling going on. They know that me and my crew, that we will look after them, that we, you know, we'll see if something is not right and then we will act on it. And that, I think, is very comfortable and feels great. But it's all about, really, the ethical production process. And that should be a standard. Whether we are talking, you know, feminist porn, indie porn or mainstream porn. It should be a standard in any business out there, Even if you're making buildings or, you know.

Ethical person with ethical values. And when it Comes to filmmaking and porn business. I mean, what are ethical values? Well, it's informing your actors before shooting what will happen. So they are getting the script sent weeks before the shooting. They can give me feedback on that. I ask them, with whom would they like to perform, to make sure that they are together with a partner that they trust and that they are attracted to. Because that's like the whole difference. When there's good chemistry between people and most people who work in the porn industry, they have favorite co workers, people that they really like to work together with. Then we talk about all the details. We do the STI testing. Obviously, before the shooting. Actors always have the right to look at the other person's paperwork so they know that everybody is in the best conditions. We talk about condom use. Is that something they want to use or not? We talk about lubricants. Are they allergic to anything?

What leaves do you want on set? Right?

I love it.

No, it matters.

Toys are involved. Then we talk about their boundaries and their limits. Is there something that they don't. Don't want to do? Something that they don't like? You know, is there something they like particularly?

This is what every couple should do, by the way, before they get together, like, or at least on the first or second date.

It's only the same thing.

I know, it's so obvious.

It should be easy to have this kind of conversations with people about sex because that is when sex works, when you can trust that everything has been taken care of. And then, of course, I always tell my performers that if they feel uncomfortable during a shooting, they can always cut. You know, they can always tell me, I need a break, I need to go to the bathroom, I need water, I need a towel. You know, these standard kind of things. And they know that I will never push their boundaries. I will, will never say to them, what do you think about now? If we could do a little more maybe we. If, you know, if we have. If we have agreed on doing vaginal sex, I would never ask them to do anal sex, for example. That is a totally no go, you know, I would never tell them. There's a third person that I'm thinking would be interesting if they were turned on.

So why. Yeah, exactly.

But, but this kind of thing, they do happen sometimes. I mean, the actresses and the performers, they are telling me about this kind of stories. I also have a lot of male performers telling me that sometimes they are in trouble because they are having trouble to maintain their erection.

So what do you do with that?

Yeah, well, what I do is that I give them time. You know, I give them time and security. So hopefully that won't happen. But sometimes when they are at, you know, regular shootings, they get very pressured, and then many of them take the kind of Viagra drugs they need to make it happen. And if they can't do it, sometimes I heard stories about producers who won't pay them, who say, like, if you can't do it, then, you know, I'm not gonna.

And that's definitely, like, if a guy ethical behaviors. I get that. But you're really ballistic poured, too. So what if the guy loses his erection? Would you keep that in the film where she gets him hard again?

I could. I could, yes.

Let's stop and make a sandwich. Will you get hard again or.

I could definitely do that because I don't see it really as a problem.

It's real.

It's real. It could happen. It depends always on the film that you are doing and what you want to, you know, communicate. I mean, I did shoot, for example, a threesome where one guy had trouble for a while and he went away to the bathroom. The other two were going on, and then after a while, he was good again, and then he came back in.

You know, like, there you are. It flowed like a real threesome. Someone's got to get up and go to the bathroom at some point.

Exactly. I'm all happy. I'm super happy to be here. It's been a wonderful conversation, really.

Oh, this was a fun show, you guys. I so enjoyed this show. I'm all riled up. We should go home and watch some more porn. All right, I gotta go. But don't worry, I'll be back soon with more sex with Emily. You guys, there's so much more to talk about, so don't miss my next episode. Subscribe to Sex with Emily right now. Please, like, review and share this podcast with the ones you love. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com Find us on all social media. It is exwithemily.

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