Real Self, Real Sex w/ Jeffrey Marsh

Stop what you're doing and listen closely because Bellesa and I are giving away free spicy toys or gift cards to every single one of you. That's right, everyone who signs up wins something. And if you haven't heard of Bellesa, let me put you on. They're a bi woman for everyone company that's completely flipping the script on sexual wellness and now they're hooking you up. You've definitely seen Bellesa's viral toys all over your for you page. Like the rose, it blew up for a reason. This little flower shaped suction toy is iconic.

Or.

Or their famous whisper collection. You know the first fully ever silent vibrators. If you live with roommates, parents, or even if your partner is sleeping right next to you, these toys are silent without compromising power. Or their new Pebble Pro. They just one up their best selling pebble with a stronger, smarter and seriously spicy redesign. Ballast has somehow figured out how to engineer a one stop pleasure shop with three interchangeable heads. It sucks. It humps, it licks, it vibrates. I'm speechless. And of course I had to hook all of you up. So my friends at Bellesa are sending out free toys or gift cards for toys to everyone who signs up. You heard that right. Every single one of you wins something. Just click the link in the episode description or head to bbvibes.com Emily that's B B V I B E S.com Emily.

People I'm sure are listening and are tripped up by that.

A penis does not make you a man.

Yes, there are women in this world with penises.

Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions.

Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. On today's show, I'm joined by activist, author and queer commentator Jeffrey Marsh to discuss all things gender. Jeffrey breaks down their approach towards radical self acceptance and how to really, truly do it. How fearlessly demanding respect from others frees you up to fully be yourself. The importance of representation for trans individuals and their experience as the first openly non binary person on television. They even help me identify my needs and go a little bit deeper and explore why it might be difficult for me to ask for all my needs to be met. We go there. We also dive into Jeffrey's book how to be you intentions with Emily. For each episode. Let's set an intention. I do it. I encourage you to do the same. My intention for this episode was to showcase different ways to wholeheartedly embrace your inner self to live a more authentic life with very specific tips. All right, questions. If you want to ask me a question, just call my brand new hotline. It's 559-talk-SEX or 559-825-5739. Leave me your questions there. Or you can just message me sex with emily.com Ask Emily. As always, include your name, your gender identity, location, age and how you listen to the show. Also, check out our hot article right now at sex with emily.com 7 sex toys to celebrate masturbation all year long. All right. Enjoy the show.

Jeffrey Marsh is one of the world's foremost commentators on non binary identity and activism in America with a message of positivity and inclusion and a deep knowledge of queer issues in history. They're also the author of how to Be you, which is now available as an audiobook. Check them out on social media at the Jeffrey Marsh. Jeffrey, you were the first prominent openly non binary public figure to be interviewed on national television. So can you tell me about that? Tell me about your journey. I mean, what a, what an experience to be the first person. And we're still. Because I'm going to have to ask you today some of the basic questions because I have so many, so many things I want to talk to you about. But I still think it's very confusing for people. They're like they, them, she, her now Instagram wants me to choose. People are angry about it or confused by it. So tell me about your journey. Like, tell me everything. Jeffrey.

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm happy to start at the beginning as you were describing a little bit of, you know, why I'm known, I guess you could call it. I was thinking how many of those words in that description do you want to talk about? The first openly non binary person on TV to talk about being non binary. There's just a whole chain of things that came together to make non binary even possible. And that doesn't mean that our identities are not valid. Of course they are. But we are living in a time where there is a context and a language where we can fully be open about who we are.

Right?

And to me, that's why coming on your show was such why I've been looking forward to recording this with you for so long. Because it does have to do with how we relate to each other and it does have to do with how we respect Ourselves and each other and which trips up so many people. It has to do with being a human, having needs, being. Okay, that you have needs, being able to say that you have needs, and being able to request that other people help you with your own needs. So, meaning, like, I need to be respected for who I am. And so part of talking about being non binary is just trying to help people respect me for who I am.

Yeah, exactly. So. So let's go back to non binary, though. So just to ask you these questions, like non binary, gender, non conforming, like, how do we even just. Just break it down from my audience who still. It still can be challenging for people because was it more like, to give context, Was it more like you were born a cisgender male? Right?

No, no, not at all.

Okay, what were you born?

Let's start there. So the way we talk about it is I was assigned male at birth.

Assigned male at birth.

So there's a. I almost said gift certificate, but my birth was a gift. There's a birth certificate in a filing cabinet in Pennsylvania with my name on it. And it says male, which I think is what you're getting at. And the reason we phrase it that I was assigned male at birth is because it feels like that was a word and a label and a category that is irrelevant to who I am. Stick with me. Is irrelevant to who I am and was assigned to me. That was a decision made for me before I could speak for myself.

And that decision was based on the genitalia that you were born with?

Well, yeah. I mean, doctors at the time, that's. That's largely what they were basing it on, is Right. Outward physical appearance.

Exactly. So how old are you when you're like this? Just doesn't feel right to be assigned as a man.

Oh, gosh. Kindergarten. Well, I remember sitting in kindergarten, one of the teachers we had, I think we had at least two teachers for our kindergarten class. One of them spent time cutting out felt figures, one in the shape of a boy and one in the shape of a girl. And they also cut out felt clothing and felt accoutrement. So objet. Right. A book bag, an umbrella. Right. As a class, we were supposed to sit around and dress these figures for the day and for the weather. So some, you know, lesson about you wear a sweater when it's cold or, you know, I don't know what we were supposed to learn. And I was constantly getting in trouble for putting the wrong things with the wrong figure. The stuff that wasn't supposed to go.

And I just put a dress on the mail, perhaps on the board.

Yeah. And I was always the kid in class who wanted to wear the princess dress, and I was not allowed to at a very young age. And I was, you know, before too long.

I haven't thought about this in a really long time, but before too long, my feet grew too big to wear my mom's shoes without her knowing about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, my feet were starting to stretch into my mom's shoes when I started. Early teens. This way of expressing has always been a part of me. And the reason talking about non binary is important is because it goes even beyond expression. It is the deep, deep way that we experience ourselves. So in other words, it's different than a drag queen, which is someone. There's nothing wrong with drag queens, but that's someone who wears things, and that's part of that label is what you wear. Non binary is much more of a conception of who you are deep in your soul.

Well, we explained your experience of like, I'm not, I'm neither.

Yes.

So that's what we mean when we say non binary.

Yes. And you asked, you know, were you all sitting in a room together talking about this stuff? And it sort of seems like that, but we were talking to each other and fueling each other and supporting each other on places like Tumblr, if you remember Tumblr.

Yes.

And Vine. And, you know, we were coming out as non binary and connecting with each other. I remember DMing with other non binary activists and, and stuff like that. And we thought, for example, they as a pronoun is so convenient because people use it to mean one person already. People say someone left their wallet here. I hope they come back and get it. I wish they weren't so forgetful to leave their wallet. Right. You're saying they and you mean one person. So we just thought, oh, my goodness, I don't have to be a he, I don't have to be a she, I can be a they. And.

It has become one of the cornerstones of our movement because it is so important to use respectful language. And we didn't anticipate that, you know, quote unquote pronouns would become this big deal. But they, they certainly have. And it's, it's simply because it's so important for respect.

And now I feel like in the last few years, I think it gets easier.

Sure.

You talk about it. It's like, great, whatever you want.

You know what it's like. So you have a friend who gets Married and their name changes. Well, you stumble over it for a while and then, you know, you just use the new name.

Exactly.

There's no big deal. Right. So you could find out a new set of pronouns for someone and you stumble over it for a while and then it just becomes second nature. And also, like, you don't know the gender of a dog and you use they people do all the time. You don't know the gender of an unborn baby. And then the baby's born and you know the gender and you just start using whatever pronouns are next. Right. So there, there are lots of examples of us showing respect by using language in certain ways. That's all we're asking for.

So they then pronouns for trans and gender non conforming people. So what about trans fitting into. Because not everyone trans is non binary, Right?

Correct. Yes. So the T in LGBT stands for trans, and it's used as an umbrella term for people who are not the gender they were assign birth. So that's what I. That's the language I was using before, and it's the easiest for this conversation. So Laverne Cox has a birth certificate somewhere that says one thing. And Laverne is Laverne now and transitioned to be a she. Her. I have a birth certificate that says it does not say non binary. I can guarantee that. And I have transitioned and now come out as non binary. So we're both trans, even though I use they them. Laverne uses she herself. Does. Does all of that make sense?

That makes sense, yeah. Because people get caught up. Like, it means that you have to have an operation, or it means that you have to take hormones, or it means it doesn't mean anything.

Oh, gosh, yes. And you know, in my bio, you were talking about how I was the first person to talk about this stuff openly on national tv, and I was asked about my genitals on tv. It's. It's. Yeah. When you come out as trans, you give up a certain amount of privacy.

And you say, that's not okay to ask me that or what did you do? What is the right way to handle that?

I've chosen to live a life where, and hopefully you notice how charming I am. I've chosen to live a life where people can ask me anything because that's what I want to give to the world. So when I was asked about that on tv, I just answered honestly. The reason it's not the best idea is because not everybody wants to talk about their genitalia. Right.

So don't ask everybody well, what. Can I ask what genitalia you have?

Yeah, I have a penis.

Okay.

And it doesn't make me a man.

Right, Exactly.

People I'm sure are listening and are tripped up by that statement.

A penis does not make you a man.

Yes, there are women in this world with penises. Tis true.

And you know, I am not a biologist, but biology is incredibly complicated. And gender is usually an amalgam of. Of a few things for people. They think about chromosomes, they think about hormones, they think about what's called secondary sex characteristics. So whether you have facial hair or not, they think about your genitalia. Right. All of those things kind of mushed together make up a gender for the layperson. For biologists, it's much more complicated than that. But all the things I just mentioned are incredibly vibrant, wild, weird. There are people in humanity who are born with all kinds of genitalia.

Right.

All kinds. There are XXY chromosomes.

Right.

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of hormone levels. There are women who are what we call cisgender women. So non trans women whose birth certificate says woman and they live as a woman who have facial hair. That happens.

It happens. It's hormones. It's everything.

What is gender based on? And the reason it's a good question to ask yourself is. Now we're getting extra deep. It can be a system of oppression.

Yes.

Separate and unequal genders, that's. That's what we're amounting to. So.

Right.

I'm sure everybody was raised with the idea that in the binary gender system, one gender is better than the other gender.

Right.

And if you even conceive of people like me who are not either of those two, we're horrible. Right. We're certainly not better than men. You know what I mean?

Right. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Jeffrey tells me how they learn to ask for what they need. Something I think all of us struggle with at some point. Don't go anywhere.

So who, who is Jeffrey?

Deep in my soul, I wish I knew.

But would you not even like to think about gender then? Like, would you ever say, well, there's a part of me that feels more feminine or masculine? Would you ever use any of those words? Or is it just sort of something else entirely?

Oh, I love that. Yeah, of course. I. Well, so I have to get meta with you for a second.

Please. I love it.

You're so ready. So the meta conversation is so many of the boxes we put ourselves into Orphic and we get attached to the box. So to me, non binary is literally a chance to uncheck all the boxes and then see what we have left. Throughout human history, there have been people like me, and they've been called lots of different things. A while ago, you asked specifically about the word non binary. And for us, the binary genders. Binary meaning two. The binary genders are man and woman. The two genders that most people think are the only two genders. And to say I'm non binary just means I don't fit in the man category. I don't fit in the woman category. And me personally, Jeffrey, I'll speak very, very specifically about me. I feel like I have, you know, a wheelbarrow full of genders. I just have so much gender going on. It's not an absence of gender for me. It's just like I express all, all in every and every which way.

What I love that you're doing is because I know that you coach and you speak and you have a beautiful TED Talk that you did, and check that out. We'll link all that in the show notes. But so let me tell you about a conversation I had. And I had a conversation with a close family member. She's a lesbian. She's in her 50s. And she said to me, I just don't understand. I have a friend's son who's 7 years old and already wants to declare that he is a she or wants to do an operation or something. And my mom chimes in and was like, yeah. And so. And so's daughter says, announced that she's bisexual, but she's 14 and hasn't been with anybody. Was, this is crazy what's going on, right? The older, like, it's crazy. And I was like, but think about it. I know. And I know for a fact that in kindergarten she felt that she was attracted to women. Because we've had these conversations. And I said, or girls. And I said, do you know? And that was hard for her to come out, not until she was in her, you know, early 20s. I said, can you imagine how many other kids in the class probably felt that way as well? But they would only because they're in a box. And there's a choice. If you're a man, you have to be the woman. If you're a woman, you'd be with man. But now what I see this is giving young people opportunity to say, I actually don't know yet. And how beautiful is that that they can come from the place figuring it out. Like, I just think it's Just really misunderstood. People get angry about it. So do you feel that this is the case, that this is going to serve, or you probably have seen this a lot of young people or people of all ages to realize it's my choice and I get to identify however I want.

Yeah, of course. And to back up just a teeny tiny bit, who you are deep down is not a choice. You're talking about the choice to express yourself.

That's what I'm saying. The choice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and one thing that I know gets stolen from young LGBTQ people is their future. So I was. I know I look incredibly young and people can look at my social media to verify, but I'm 43. I was born in 1977, and I literally thought that I was going to be dead. I really began to more and more understand who I was at the height of the AIDS crisis and at the height of celebrities even dying on TV. And I never thought I would be 43. I never thought I'd be 23, because I never saw an example of someone like me surviving. And so if there's anything I can do with my channel, it's to give that 7 year old who was like me the chance to survive and to know that there is a place for you, there is a future for you.

The fleece sure looks great with fabulous skin.

Hey, thank you. I'm wishing that quite a lot. It's also, you know, loving yourself.

Loving yourself.

Loving yourself is the best skincare.

I mean, because. But that's also like your book, you know, is all about how to be you, how to learn to love yourself, accept yourself. Stop the negative self talk.

Yes. You mentioned anger a couple times.

Oh, people are angry.

I make people angry. Yeah.

Yeah.

And you've. You. We've had a lovely conversation and you can probably see that I'm just as sweet as pie, and I hold firm to the understanding and the commitment that I will be respected. And nothing makes people angrier than when you do that. So I'll give you an example. People often talk about me as a walking metaphor. It's pretty obvious when you see me what I was told is wrong with me from a very early age. And the metaphor is I've learned to not only accept that about myself, but love it, celebrate it, enjoy it, adorn it.

Right. It's like the thing that dance in it.

Right?

Yeah. So the things. And this is what you talk about, I think it was in your TED Talk, about the things that we think that aren't lovable about ourselves. Are actually the things we need to go towards, which is such a concept that people think, well, I could never tell anybody about. We're not even just talking about sexuality and gender. Just shame that we have about where we failed or we should be better, we should be smarter, we should be more fit, or all the. All the worries. You're saying that I'm going to embrace that. Yeah.

Yep.

And you're a living example of that. You were told you can't wear these shoes, you can't dress this way. You were probably bullied.

Gee, you think? I mean, yeah, I was bullied, actually, inside and outside of my home, the places where you are supposed to be safest. I was not. And, you know, instead of becoming angry myself, instead of choosing bitterness, heaviness, and obsession with getting even right, I've chosen to help other people make the same transition, pun intended, that I did, from being misunderstood, being bullied to helping people heal. And it's the same thing you do. So, you know, we recognize each other.

We do, we do. So, Jeffrey, what was the turning point for you when you thought, I'm not going to be bullied and I'm going to go towards the pain, I'm going to go towards this, and I'm going to live this life of accepting and loving myself? Because we often say. I say it all the time, if you don't love yourself, it's going to be really hard. Or even like yourself, it's really hard to find a genuine someone else to love you. And people go, yeah, self love, blah, blah, blah. But you, you've walked the walk, talk the talk. And I'd love to know what that looked like for you.

You just said that.

Self love, you know, blah, blah, blah. Right? No, you're exactly right. Yes. So they say, read hashtag self love on Instagram and then they. I was going to make a Twitter joke. They switch over to Twitter and find self hate. But what I mean is, you know, they get off Instagram and all of a sudden it's a deluge inside their mind that you did this. You were so stupid. The people at work are laughing at you. All of that stuff happening internally. And I'll tell you a really, really quick story about the monastery where I trained. I was there for an extended stay. So I've been studying zen for over 20 years now. And I was at the monastery for an extended stay. And I was about to leave and go to the real world for a while, to the outside world for a while. And the night before I left, I had Very strong feelings. Like, I did not want to be here anym. And went to the meditation hall and meditated and then petitioned the monastery the next day to stay longer. And they said yes. And so I stayed a little bit longer. And what I was able to see is that for me, I can't speak for anyone else, for me, those feelings, those sensations, that heaviness, that darkness, however you want to call it, arrived when I was just on the edge of. Of a real sense of freedom and lightness. That it was, in a way, a spiritual sort of counterbalance.

Yes.

So in my experience, people who are the heaviest in this life have that chance to be the lightest. Huh.

Wow.

And I try to help people to do that.

Are you saying that in a way, you were there the night before you were leaving, and you felt this heaviness that you wanted to leave? You're like, I got to get out. Is that what you felt? I got to get out of here.

Oh, maybe I was a little too euphemistic. I wanted to leave Earth.

Oh, you were saying, like, I wanted.

To leave this life. Yes.

Okay, got it. Wow. You felt after all the days there meditating, you thought, I'm not going to go back out there.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. This is something people don't talk about in self care, but sometimes when you go into that sort of work, the systems that have been keeping you, you will kick so far into.

Trying to keep you from breaking free that things will get very dark. So it happens.

They're holding on to you because you've been using them your whole. They don't want you to get rid of your productive. It's like your defense.

They don't want to be out of a job.

Yeah, they don't want to be out of the job. Exactly. They don't want to be out of the job. All of our negatives to all of our defenses are like, nope, we're not going to release it. So then you stayed an extra and you had. You had this enlightenment epiphany. You had a chance. And so that was the moment. You stayed for a little bit longer, and you thought, no, I'm going to live, and I'm going to live this life the way I.

And I'll tell. I'll tell you. The guide at the monastery said, you know, you'll notice that there's no cliff at the monastery property. There's no lake. There's no. Because it's really essential that people who are doing self care are extra kind to themselves, are extra protective of Themselves. Have every support possible, have every person that they can reach out to available while they're doing this work. And that circles back to what we mentioned about needs and having them and being clear about them.

So you got out of the monastery and I guess we're talking 20 years ago. So you've been on this path now for a while.

Yeah. And it was off and on with the same monastery for 20 years. So that was after one of my stays. And, you know, can you go deep for a moment? What's a need that you have? Say it on the podcast.

What's a need I have that I'm not. That I don't currently have? Or just a need I need to.

Be just name one.

Loved. Respected.

Right. Like, isn't that so human and simple? And every single person tries to live their whole life not admitting that they.

Need to be loved because we're afraid to feel needy. We're afraid we won't get it.

Yeah. I think we're afraid to be rejected.

We're afraid we're going to be rejected because we don't go after the love. Because we think, well, if someone really loves me and this isn't even conscious sometimes if they let me. If I really let someone in to love me and they see all of my darkness, well, they won't really love me because we're so. We have so much shame around who we really are.

Wow. Yeah. And that probably comes right out of our childhood, right?

Oh, it all comes from childhood.

Right. I don't know if you've experienced this, but a lot of people I coach with were always the child that no one had to worry about.

I've absolutely heard it. I know I have these people as friends, and you know what I mean?

Like, you're the one.

They can't get their needs met because no one thinks they ever need anything.

Don't worry about me. I'm over here. I'm the good one. I. You know, nobody has to worry about you. And not the, you know, not the, like, discipline problem or whatever different childhood experience would be. But it's. To me, when I did that, when I was a kid, I used. My mom is a Lutheran pastor, and so I used Jesus as that shield. And I was. I could quote the Bible and I was the most, like, in. With Jesus kind of person. And I was using it as a shield in a way to seem perfect and lovable and all of that stuff as like a bookend, you know, having gone on this spiritual journey to be not currently Christian, not harboring Any resentment toward Christianity in the least. But I'm not Christian at the moment. So many Christians write to me and say they use the exact same language in every dm. They say I remind them of Jesus. And so there's some sort of, like, symmetry of what I've devoted my life to. Is some. Some sort of bookend to. To what I was raised with.

Well, that must be because you were raised with it. So it's truly part of who you are. Are there parts of it, though, that you can still respect and honor? Like parts of being Lutheran?

Parts of Christianity?

For sure, yeah.

I mean, like, for example, if you read the things Jesus said in the Bible. Thumbs up. I mean.

That really is spiritually sound stuff I was told as a kid. So an example of the other side. I was told as a kid. Jesus doesn't love you. God hates you. You're never going to heaven unless you change who you are.

That's people in your home and out of your home told you this. You're so brave, Jeffrey. So many people stay in those environments because they're so afraid to leave family and to leave what's perceived as the only love they have. But it's really around people who aren't willing to accept them as who they are.

Can I say something weird?

Yes, of course.

I think staying. I think that exchange to stay small in order to be safe, I think that takes bravery in a weird way.

Yeah. That is.

That, to me, is somebody really on the edge.

You're so right. That is really brave. It's all brave because we're all trying to survive, right?

I think so.

And I would love to see people maybe from this conversation, understand that it's okay to honor what you need and what you deep down desire. And I'm going to say that if you're living a life to please others, even if it's brave, I think ultimately it's not going to be the life that you could be living in. The life that would give you the most fulfillment and the most joy.

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I. When I use that word, brave, it's good. I mean, it takes a lot of spiritual, mental, emotional energy and focus to hide who you are. 24 7.

Well, that's the thing. Hi.

I know. I did it.

We're not even talking about sexuality. Just hiding that you don't want to be in a relationship that you're in.

Or living or hiding that you have needs to bring it back around.

Needs.

Right.

Why aren't we. So how do you. Do you work with people too you help them. That's kind of one of the. Your bases is like, what is a need? Well, we also don't even have the language to even ask for what we want without being. Especially if you grew up at a home where your needs were just irrelevant. Which was sort of my upbringing that no one ever asked what I wanted. It didn't matter. I was on everyone else's agenda and it wasn't important and it wasn't nurturing and it wasn't. And granted, my mom's great, we're in a good place, but she had her own. Everyone's parents does. They don't. They love you in the best way they can. But I'm still trying to figure out now sometimes, like, what are my needs? Because when you're somebody who's constantly like, everyone else's needs are more important or no one ever asked me. I remember going to college and I remember just feeling like, who am I? What I don't know what I want to eat or where I want to sit or who would I want to be. And I didn't have the words then to say, oh, you're 18 and you just came from your home and no one ever asked you what you wanted or what you needed. I. What I did is, and this is something I still have struggled with and I work on is that I just beat myself up. How did I get to be 18 and not know myself? And it wasn't until therapy and all the years realizing, well, no one frigging asked and I didn't feel seen. So it's interesting journey. Yeah. Anyway, I haven't thought about that either. Yeah.

Did you just say anyways? No.

Anyways. No. See, I don't take up a lot of space for my own. I don't usually. Yeah.

Because that was a brilliant story. Don't anyways it. There are a couple of things that I loved in that story because we're all told by that negative self tape that we are especially awful. But every single person is going around being told that they're especially awful, which is something that makes us all the same and brings us all together. And the other thing I love about your story is, you know, there's no 18 year old alive who is clear on what they want, what they're doing and that's okay.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, and then some people have the parents that are constantly telling them what they should be and what they should do. And then those people feel oppressed because they're like, I didn't want to be a doctor or I didn't want to be a pastor. I didn't want, you know, so they don't have choice. So at least I, you know, we had had a choice. After the break, I asked Jeffrey what being non binary means for their sexual orientation. And thank you, everyone, for supporting our sponsors who help keep this show free.

You're really putting up. I'm so glad the work you're doing, because I hope to see this in the world in the next five, 10 years where we just don't even see it. I mean, don't you think these. The younger people who are saying, well, I don't know what I am and I'm not declaring it. I was celebrating that.

I think. Absolutely. What if parents embrace that?

If parents embrace it. That's the thing.

When parents embrace that, they send a message of autonomy to their child, that you are in the driver's seat of declaring who you are, which may be the biggest gift that a parent could give to their kid.

And it's so hard for parents because a lot of parents see their kids as an extensions of themselves. Right. And they think, well, if my kid is a certain way, then people aren't going to respect me. Or, you know what I mean? It's. What is the. What is everyone going to think? Do you feel like there's more and more people now who were born in a way where they're questioning it, but they feel more. Is it. There's more people now because of hormones? There's all these studies that saying that people born after 92 have. Are born with less testosterone and less estrogen and. Or do you think that there's just more people talking about it now? Like, do you think we're actually seeing more and more babies born with this?

I think that's something. Yeah. Well, no, I think it's something that we'll see.

Yeah.

You know, it's. It's just unclear right now. You make me think of a couple things, though. Tell me that if you dig into the historical record, there's always been trans people. There's always been people who have not been a man or a woman. And we've talked about them in different ways and conceived of them in different ways. And in some cultures, they've been celebrated and seen as, you know, closer to God than other folks. And in some cultures, they've just been, you know, mundane, and they're seen as the same as other people. Right. It's just we've always been around. And the other thing you made Me think of is when left handedness a genetic trait, when it became more acceptable, quote, unquote. I'm using quotes around this. The number of left handed people skyrocketed. But of course what I mean is more people could use their left hand because it was natural for them, because it was destigmatized.

Right, right.

So as we destigmatize being non binary and being trans, you're going to hear about more people doing it because they've always been there.

They've always been there.

Yeah.

And do you think that there's a lot of people who come out? This is the question we got from Instagram a few times.

Yes, tell me.

So someone said, for people who are non binary, how does their sexual preference work?

Oh, it's a good question. Ask my partner. The kids on TikTok say I'm a non binary lesbian. I love it. I love it. Because you would think the term lesbian relies on one person being a woman and the other person being a woman. But not to lump everyone together, of course, but the kids today, I can't believe I sound like such a 43 year old. The kids today are just so liberated that the words are something that they can pick and choose to suit their needs when they talk about what they want or who they want to be with or how they're feeling in that particular moment. And I take such inspiration from that approach to gender and sexuality. It's the right way to go.

It is the right way to go.

This is going to be the most like you answer, you got to communicate with your partner. Right? That's the answer. Because I came out as non binary and my partner said, well, what does that make me? And I was like, I don't know, what does that make you? You know, over the coming weeks we had to discuss it and you know, it basically means you're attracted to me. So great, you can call that what you want.

Can I ask how your partner identifies?

We use the word queer because it's very inclusive to us.

Okay.

And so because we know we're not, you know, we're not going to use the word straight.

Right.

To describe what we're doing. He's a he. Him. He's a man.

Okay.

And so we went through, we went through a time of discussing it.

Okay, yeah, got it. You came to it.

Which I realize is an unsatisfying answer.

No, no, no. But it makes sense. You had to figure out what it was. Are we, do we fit? Well, that kind of leads to another question here. Can you discuss biphobia, especially in regards to bi men. There's a lot of bi people. Again, it kind of goes to like, you can't be bi. You must choose. It just seems like it's just people are just don't have a lot of information.

Well, it's like your friend saying, how does a 14 year old know that they're bi if they haven't been with anyone? It's like you must know that sexuality is a whole lot more than just what you do with whom. There's a whole matrix of an inner life of emotions and crushes and attractions. And we are complicated, messy, beautiful creatures that have a whole lot going on. And to me, because this, this comes up a lot, there's a whole lot of. Just in culture in general, there's a whole lot of bi erasure. So when a bi person is with a certain person, they get X label that's not bi. When they're with a different person, they get a different label that's, that's not bi. And they just declaring themselves bi is, can be such an act of self reliance because they're aware of the truth of their attraction.

Yeah. And I guess queer is just an easier way to say it too, I think, to get out of the bi thing. Couldn't you just be. I just think queer is all encompassing now.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people find the term bi useful because of the way their attraction works. And of course you'd want to talk to a bi person about why that label is so powerful for them.

True. Yep.

But I like queer because it's just.

So, you know, I like queer too.

It's a messy word.

It is.

And I like that about it.

Yeah, exactly. But how can parents learn to embrace their child's choices?

Oh, oh, I know again, we'll emphasize for everybody and I know what you mean. But we'll emphasize that it's not a choice. That's an inherent thing that happens. I see that.

Choices around their.

Okay, well, I think you were saying like choosing to come out, which is a choice.

That's what I meant. Right, right.

But so many people just want to assume that it's a choice and they can convince their kid not to be who they are. And that's not, that's not good. So the answer, of course, because I coach a lot of parents, is you have to demonstrate total loving self acceptance. You know this from your work. Nobody's going to pick up what you're putting down unless you're putting it down. Meaning nobody is going to get any lesson from you. This is my experience. No one's going to get any wisdom from you unless you are demonstrating a person who knows that wisdom and lives it. So no one is going to understand. No one will take me seriously as an authority on self compassion unless I am doing it. And it's the same for how do I raise a kid.

Yeah, but that's then learning people's self compassion who have never loved themselves, they have to do the work right.

You, it's the answer nobody wants. And you know, talking about gender, you know, moms especially are conditioned to sacrifice their entire selves and their lives for their family and children. And all your children will get from that is that women should sacrifice their whole selves and their whole lives for other people.

Yes.

I hate to put it so bluntly.

No, I know I have.

What you want to demonstrate is self reliance and loving yourself.

So you're part of your coaching program which people can find on your site. Your site which is jeffreymarsh.com I love that you offer coaching to parents and to everybody but it seems like this would be a really. You'd be busy right now.

Can I. Oh my gosh, yes. And can I let you in on a secret?

Please.

A bunch of parents come to me and say can you coach my 14 year old who's non binary, you know, needs help coming out at school or whatever. And I always say oh yes, of course. What I like to do is have one session with the parents first and invariably the parents end up coaching with me. And we may somewhere down the road get to helping the 14 year old. But it really needs. Parenting is such a journey of self discovery and every parent wants to pawn off the self discovery onto the other people in the family and help them do it, but you can't.

I love that.

You gotta do it.

I didn't even know where that was going. You redirected like let's start with you, the parent.

Yeah, exactly.

That's beautiful.

I trick them.

You do?

I trick them into loving themselves.

You've such a wonderful way about you. It's true. A lot of us are just. It's just so hard. And would you say that you still have slip ups? You still have days, times where you don't feel. Does it go away? Do you ever feel like some days or no. You've just sort of been doing it for so long that you, you always love yourself without the negative stuff?

I love. No, I love that you're asking about slip ups because I need more clarity from you. Define a slip up in self care.

I'm really hard on myself. I have these negative tapes. I don't ask what I need. I think things are my fault. But then I have to like stop myself and turn it around and sometimes every day but sometimes for days it's fine. You know what I mean? That kind of slip up because that kind of like I didn't. I wasn't the most loving to myself today. Like I didn't. Not today but in general those kind of days.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. So a slip up is any time where you don't need the meat. The standard of self care for that day. If that's the definition. No, I don't have slip ups because I have no standards for self care. Dun dun dun.

Why you bear in the lead. What do you mean?

There's no day where I'm supposed to do anything or achieve anything with self care. I do not. Nope, not going there. So could there be a day where I fall into where an old self tape is playing? Oh my gosh, yes. Like a self hate internal tape. Yeah, sure. You know, some people think that achieving some kind of spiritual happiness or whatever means that you won't have your self hate tapes play anymore. But no, no, I don't. I don't find that to be true. For me sometimes they. It's like stimulus and response. It's so ingrained it'll start but I don't take it seriously and I don't listen and I. It doesn't ruin my life and I.

What do you care about it? You just kind of let it go. You're like there it goes again. Everyone's got their own ways of.

I. Depending on the situation I will start telling myself very kind things. My in the sense that my self talk is my business and I'm going to choose. I'll literally close my eyes and say I love you Jeffrey. Thank you for who you are. I'm glad you're here. I know you're trying really hard today. Thank you for that. You know, we're just taught to abandon ourselves frankly. And all I do is try to come on back.

So how do you have any advice then like for what. What we could be doing for more self care for ourselves then if you don't have a daily practice around.

I wrote the book.

Yeah.

I think the place. The thing I'll say is that it's very poignant to me that the time when we need. Need self compassion the most is the time when we're least able to Give it meaning. The most difficult time in anyone's self compassion journey is going to be the very beginning of it. And that's when you're least talented at it. Do you know what I mean? So the time when you are absolutely the most desperate, when you absolutely should forgive yourself, love yourself unconditionally, let yourself off the hook, when you should just be pouring love like over your psyche at every single waking minute, is the, is the time when you least know how to do that. And it's just one of the ironies of the self compassion journey. And it's almost some people, when they start a self compassion journey will start to think ignorance is bliss. And I should have like never started this. Do you know what I mean? Because you start to feel worse.

You're like, it's harder than it. Yes.

For a while. Yeah. And you start uncovering these patterns but then blaming yourself for the patterns and you start hating yourself even more than when you were just kind of like.

Showing up to work late with your Starbucks and not thinking about it.

Right, right, right.

It's like, yeah, that to me is very poignant and difficult. So the advice would be be as kind to yourself as you can. Keep going. It does absolutely get better. You get more talented at it. You find friends that are going to match your same goals and where you're pointed to.

So important to find those people in your life.

I think so. That's why I'm glad to be here with you.

I know, Me too. It's so nice, it's so nice to talk to you here. How would you like to see language change and evolve around pronouns over time?

Oh, that's a really interesting one. People often ask me, do I want eventually for everyone to use they them? And the answer is absolutely not. Because a lot of people love she her and you know, they, they are a woman and that's who they are. And I would never, you know, there's this common misconception that people like me want to like tear down gender or something. Yeah, quite the opposite. I want everyone to love whatever gender they are. And that's, that's what I'm into. So our language is going to evolve. I mean, there's nothing we can do to stop it, contrary to popular belief. And I, I would just want it to become that whatever way is going to be more inclusive. And. Can I let you in on a little secret? Yes. There's probably something on the frontier that we will begin to not call ourselves non binary anymore because it refers to what we're Not. And so we might start to use language to talk about what we are. You know, that's where words like gender fluid comes in and you know, stuff like that.

So gender fluid sounds kind of more fun, doesn't it? Positive. Yeah. Gender fluid.

Your gender can be fun. Isn't that a good message?

Yeah. How about I'm gender fun.

Gender fun. Gender enthusiastic.

Gender delightful enthusiast.

Yeah.

How do we make. Here's another question. How can we make space for the non binary community?

I think the most important thing you could do as an ally. This is going to sound so tragic, but I don't mean it that way. Don't look at us with disgust. That's your assignment.

A lot of us leave the house and we're wearing what we wear and we're presenting how we present. And there is something that is gender different about somebody in public. Don't treat that person unkindly. That's your assignment. Because a lot of people have, are just have been trained into an initial reaction of finding us gross or scary or difficult or whatever. It's just threatening. Yeah. And just don't do that. Please treat us like full, beautiful human beings.

That's a good answer. Okay.

Thank you. It's an important one.

So it is. It's a really important answer because people, because they say like you're wearing makeup. Eyelashes, which are fabulous.

I look gorgeous. You complimented my skin already.

You do look gorgeous. You're so skin.

Skin care, but also foundation. Let's be.

Let's be real. Right? Of course. Same, same. So most days this is how you. You dress. You dress more.

Indeed. Yeah.

Feminine.

Okay.

In your book, so how to be you, which is now the audio format just came out. People can listen to your delightful.

You're doing more hyping of my brand than I am. I love it.

Well, I think I'm honored that you're on the show. So I want to celebrate you.

You're so kind.

How can listeners be more authentic and embrace who they are? Something I know you talk a lot about, which is a very broad question.

But like, you know what people ask me the most? How can I be confident?

Right.

That exact word. You're so confident. How can I be like you? And I always have this pause and I really take in that question because what people are seeing in me is not confidence. You know, I realized this a while ago. What you are witnessing is 100% complete, enthusiastic self acceptance. To me, confidence is part of a binary. So you're going to be confident sometimes and not confident other times. And to me, there's a different place. There's a non binary approach where you accept whether you feel confident or not. You just are an acceptance machine and you just accept everything about yourself. And that's what people witness in and call confidence.

That is such an interesting way to look at it. So what we're saying is when you're authentically yourself and you truly, deeply accept yourself for all of your blessings and strengths and weaknesses, that's the most confident thing we can do. We can show up as. That's confidence. And people think it's like, I have to stand up straight, I have to say these certain things to be confident. But it's not about any of that. It's really about an embodiment of who you truly are.

Oh, you got it. Yes. It's not about meeting a standard of what confidence is. It's about that authenticity. And you know, when I went, I've done, I've done TV a few times and it's not like it's not nerve wracking to go into a studio and have the lights there and, you know, everything. It's just that. I know, but I seem confident, or people call it that, whatever, you know, whatever that means. And it's not necessarily that I feel internally confident, it's just that I know that I have my back. No matter what. What? No matter what happens in that TV appearance, no matter what happens on a podcast, to be meta, meta, you know, no matter what happens afterwards, I'm going to be kind with myself, nice to myself. I'm going to have a snack, I'm going to do something I love, you know, I'm going to enjoy myself. And that makes a person comfortable.

Yeah. We have to be on our own side. We have to be on our own teams. Sometimes we abandon ourselves. Right.

You might have noticed no one else is doing it.

No one's doing it for you.

For very few people, let's put it that way.

Gosh, that is so helpful.

You know, Can I compliment you? How good are you at receiving compliments?

Oh, I, I'm okay.

You talented at it. Okay.

I like them.

You're okay at it. Okay.

Okay. Yeah.

We're gonna test the limits. Your podcast saves lives. You knew that changes lives. Yes, but saves them as well. Because what you are doing is taking, you are undoing shame. And shame is what holds people down the most.

Yes, it's true.

And you're reaching in there to the like, to the things. Shame is built on the foundations. And you're, you're. I was about to say, ripping that stuff out. But you're gentler than that. You're. You're just challenging that stuff, and it's so deeply important.

Well, thank you for saying that. I realize how much of sexuality is caught up in your shame. Why we don't fully express ourselves is because we have shame. So I'm just trying to help people spot it. Right. Thank you.

And people can't even tell, you know, people that they're going to have sex with what they like, what they want, what they enjoy, what they need.

Right. We think we don't deserve it. We think they're going to leave us. We think they're going to feel bad about themselves. And then I'm going to feel like a bad partner because I made them feel bad by asking for something we have. Everything goes back to shame. I have to ask you now, Jeffrey, the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests.

Yes.

And these are what comes to mind. You were. Okay, what's your biggest turn on Eyes? Biggest turn off Toxic masculinity.

That's a whole other show. We could talk about that. What makes good sex?

Communication.

Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

Oh, my goodness. Do as much as you like and want. Enjoy yourself.

What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

You're not wrong and bad for enjoyment.

Beautiful answers, Jeffrey. Yes.

And some answers you might have given. I mean, your work is so. Has been so impactful for me, so.

Oh, really? Thank you. I'm so honored, so happy to be connected with you. Now, where can people find you, Jeffrey, and all the things you have going on right now?

Well, find me on the Instagram. You can search my name. It's J E F F R E Y M A R S H. And I'm also a star on TikTok.

Okay. TikTok. It's all Jeffrey March.

Yeah. And I love a personal connection, so I ask people, you know, if they want to connect with me or whatever. My email is right there. It's on my website. It's on my Instagram page.

Great.

You want to work together, whatever, do coaching you, you email me and that starts the ball rolling.

Jeffrey. Thank you. This is fabulous. I love talking to you.

Such a delight.

That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts and share this with a friend or a partner. Believe me, if you got something out of this episode, they recognize will too. We release two to three episodes a week. Find me at Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. It's all sexwithemily. If you'd like to ask me a question about sex or dating relationships, email me feedbackexwithemily.com or sexwithemily.com askemily and check out my website. We have so many great articles diving deep into topics like how do I have multiple orgasms? How do I last longer in bed? How do I stop thinking about my ex? What sex toy should I try? And so much more. Sign up for Weekly Emails I've been told I give really good emails. I do. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwith emily.com there's one overlooked mineral behind better sleep, sharper focus, stronger muscles and a healthier heart. And at least half of us aren't getting enough. Most people don't realize they're running low on one of the most vital minerals for human health. Magnesium. And here's the thing. No single form of magnesium can deliver all of its benefits. That's exactly why Qualia Magnesium plus was created with 10 highly bioavailable forms of magnesium plus over 70 essential minerals. It provides total magnesium support, helping you sleep better, think clearer, move stronger, and feel your best every day. And honestly, when you're less stressed and more energized, your intimacy and desire naturally benefit too. Sure, magnesium can help you sleep, but Qualia Magnesium plus goes beyond that. It's a whole body nourishment for how you think, move, connect and feel. More than just a sleep supplement. It's a foundation for daily well being which absolutely supports a healthier sex life. Getting enough magnesium from food alone is harder than ever due to depleted soils and chronic stress and our body's reduced ability to absorb it as we age well. Qualia's Magnesium plus formula is non gmo, vegan, gluten free and designed so all the ingredients work together for comprehensive magnesium support. And personally, I've been taking Qualia Magnesium plus in the evenings and I really noticed calmer nights and clear mornings and just feeling more grounded in my body, which always makes intimacy feel more accessible and enjoyable. It's become such an easy part of my nightly routine. Experience the most trusted magnesium for your purity, potency and performance. Go to qualialife.comsexwithemily for 50% off. And here's a bonus use the code Sex with Emily for an additional 15% off your order. That's Q U A l I a life.com sexwithemily thanks for Qualia for sponsoring this episode.