Sex Experts Tell All

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Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

Hey, Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Because my man e here, he just got his heart broken.

He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my.

Do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean, like laundry? It's shrink. Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me?

Oh, my God, I feel so good.

Being bad feels pretty good.

But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, go to sexwithemily.com and check out our website. All the great content we are updating every day for your sexual pleasure and happiness. And in case you missed it, take a listen to All Aboard the Booty Train. This was a fun episode from a few weeks ago. That's a perfect compliment to your sex resolutions. This year we talk about how to expand your sexual repertoire. And of course, we give a crash course in booty play, which I know you like. You can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts. Oh, and speaking of resolutions, it's contest time. It's still going our Better Lover 2018 contest. So I want you to just take a moment and think about where are you at with your love life, your sex life, your relationship right now, and where do you want to be in a year? So think about it, write it down, and send to me what changes you'd like to make this year. And if you do this, send me an email to FeedBackexWithemily with the title Better Lover 2018 to share your pledge with me for how you're gonna be a better lover this year. Just make sure you get your entries in by Sunday, January 14th, and I'll pick four winners who are gonna receive incredibly sexy prize packs. Cause you know you still want some presents after the holidays, right? And you can always get more sex with Emily on Social all day long. Exwithemily on Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and tw. Now onto the interviews. If you want to hear all the full episodes, look at the links in the show notes, which can be found@sexwithemily.com enjoy the show. I'm joined by writer, talk show host and all around badass millennial and smarty hottie Zara Berry. And I'm really excited for my guest here today. Hi, Zara.

I'm so excited to be here.

This is so fun.

This is so fun. And I'm honestly a huge fan of yours and I have been for a long time. Like, way before I started writing about sexuality on the Internet.

How did you find it?

I think through Dr. Drew. Like, I'm a big Dr. Drew.

You are? Yeah. Okay.

I mean, I grew up with like the Love Line era. You know, I was a little young, but like, I had older siblings, so, yeah, I think I like discovered you through him maybe. And then I just think what you do is so amazing.

Thank you.

Like, you're such a. Just such a sex positive voice and that's so needed. And like, I Just, I. Yeah, well.

That'S why you're here, because you're, you're kicking ass. I mean, I love Zara. We met actually at, in New York. Yes, at the, the Expo in September. Right.

We had met.

I don't remember. It seems like, oh my God, this year's been in. Oh, that was last year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But who knows? The time has gone. And Zara, she's a New York based writer, talk show host. And you, do you. I love all your writing. I mean, it's like she writes about sexuality, heartbreak, fashion, emotional discontent. It's like a, it's like a roller coaster. Read yourself, like, in a good way, like exhilarating and, you know, breakups and breakthroughs and breakdowns and just sex. It's all just so good. So I'm so glad you're here. You're gonna share your insights on dating, mating, navigating sex. As a millennial, I can't wait for you guys to hear what she has to say. Like, how are you doing?

I'm good in la. I'm loving being in la and it's really, it's been actually really interesting because I lived here when I was like very young. I moved here when I was 17 and I lived here till I was 22. And it was just like kind of when I sort of came out as a lesbian and I was like going to all these crazy, like, lesbian. It was just like, it was like a very.

My.

I worked at Fred Siegel. Like, oh my gosh, I was very lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. But it was like this big coming of age time for me and to come back now at 30 and kind of like now I'm a writer and I sort of have like more direction and focus in my life. LA is like a different experience, Right?

Exactly. You know, I was like reading through all of your, all your writing, social media. Yes. Oh my God. I'm like, wow. It was like, it was exhilarating, you know, like, it's a thrill. It's a thrill to read everything, like your heartbreaks and your sexcapades, like I said, and like breakthroughs and so like, let's talk about a little bit, like where you are today. Okay, so you say like you're a mascara. Lesbian.

A mascara.

Mascara, yeah, mascara.

So is that like, because my mother's English and for some reason that's like the only word I can't say. Mascara. Like, I don't.

I've tried the Midwest, like air. I say long As I would try.

Cause I get made fun of, but no. So I say mascara lesbian, but I guess it would be mascara lesbian.

Right. Okay, got it. Like lipstick lesbian.

Like lipstick lesbian. But I never identified with lipstick lesbian. Because when I think of making out, I don't think of wearing. I love lipstick. But, like, if I'm feeling hypersexual, I wear, like, a nude lip because I want to make out. Otherwise, it looks like a bloody scene, you know?

Right.

So I identify with mascara. I love mascara.

Right. We have great eyelashes.

Oh, thank you.

It looks amazing. So. As you should. So.

So how.

What's your story? So you've always. No. You've had a whole bunch of different sexual experiences?

Yes. Yes. Lots. Yes.

Okay. And so now you're in a committed relationship with a woman.

Yes.

And so what I think is interesting, though, is that you've gone through a lot. Like you. When you were younger. Tell me about your, like, sexual. When you first discovered you were.

You know what? I think I was talking about this with a friend last night. I first discovered that I was a lesbian when I was in the seventh grade. And I got drunk with a bunch of my friends. Like, we, like, stuck. It was, like, very, like, typical suburban dark story where, like, a bunch of, like, kids in the suburbs, like, raid the liquor, like, cabinet. And then we all ended up sort of, like, making out. And I remember afterwards. And giving each other hickeys. We're like, oh, let's practice kissing. And I'm pretty sure I instigated it, but. And then afterwards, they were all laughing about it. And I remember feeling like, oh, like, this kind of meant something to me. And I could tell it didn't mean anything to them. It was just like, you know, like a friendly. You know, how kids experiment with each other, whatever. But for me, it, like, haunted me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And then I, like, started thinking about boys, and I was like. I just. I realized that there was a disconnect.

Okay.

And I knew what lesbians were.

Right.

You know, I have liberal parents. I knew what they were, but I just also didn't. There wasn't lesbians in the media at that time. Ellen was kind of.

That's, like, it. Right?

That's it. You know? And I love Ellen to death, but I don't necessarily identify with her. So I was like, how. I don't. I was very confused because I'm such. So feminine, you know?

Well, you are so. Well, that's the thing. Like, I feel like you're probably always Getting hit on by men. Not as much anymore. Explain that to me. Yeah.

I actually am, like, so rarely around straight men. I feel like I'm always around women and gay men, that when I am around straight men and they start hitting on me, I'm bewildered, you know?

But do you come out and say, like, what do you do? Are you like.

Sometimes I play along for a second, and then I'll, like, go in for the kill and mention my girlfriend just because it's funny to sort of see. I mean, that sounds.

No, but they're, like, shocked, right? Like, they're always like, what? Like, because they don't. I mean, you typically don't see me. You do. We're in a way where everywhere. But you see it, but you don't also typically. Yeah, no, like, I get it.

But I often will talk to straight men, you know, as if they're just, like, bros. And I'll start talking. And then when they probably like you.

Because of that, though.

Yeah.

Because you're so comfortable.

Yeah. But then when they sort of connect it and they realize that I'm a lesbian, they're like, oh, shit. You know, like, I freaked out, but.

And do they ever. Like, I can turn it. Yeah. I had a guy, a gay guy say. He's like, well, what do you say? Like, if I went straight, I'm like, really? We really have these conversations like, you're not gonna go straight because of me, and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, you're like, this is so boring. Are you really in this conversation? Okay, so you wrote about. You've written a lot of things, but you wrote about, like, sex myths about lesbian sex.

Yes.

And I think that, like, you know, I've been doing. You know, I've done thousands of podcasts off it. I've had gay, straight, so many different people on the show, but I think that, like, lesbian sex still really is this mystery to a lot of men and women. I mean, if they're just, like, confused by it, or they're like, do you hate penises? Like, how does it really happen? Like, lesbian Beth.

Yes.

What is it?

Lesbian bed death.

Bed death syndrome, all that stuff. But let's talk about some of the myths.

Okay, let's see. And I think you're so right. People are, like, fascinated by lesbian sex. Because I think that we are. Lesbians in general are very elusive creatures. I think gay men are more putting themselves out there, more open, but we're.

Absolutely a little mysterious people, like, don't they really, like, they're so Confused. But I know, like, it's been a while since I've had someone, like, on the show. Like, I've had lesbians, gays. We don't get into it because, like, I feel like people know, but with you, it's like, this is what you do and you talk about it. So let's shed some light for some people.

Yeah. And I mean, look, for a long time, I always tell people this. People would say to me when I first came out, like, what's lesbian sex? And I'd be like, I'm not telling you, but it was because I didn't know and I was too embarrassed.

I would go back to you on that.

Yeah. Girls would be like, oh, like, did you have sex with her? And I'd be like, no. But I wasn't sure if I actually did because I didn't know what it was either.

How do you define sex?

I mean, how do you define sex? And there's so. And like, that's the other thing is that different lesbians define it differently. So some lesbians would say, you know, when you use a strap on, it's sex. Or when you. Any kind of penetration is sex or oral sex. And I just say, anytime someone has an orgasm, to me, it's sex. And when I said that to my girlfriend, she was like, oh, well, my number just got cut in half. Like, she, like, went down. And how many people she thought she had slept with? Because she didn't define it like that.

Okay. Yeah, because they were like, oh, orgasm. It's not about orgasm. It's about the connection. So people think it's just, like, there's no. Because I guess people think it's. There's no penis. Well, there aren't penises, but, like, dildos or there's. There's just, I don't know, oral or. I mean, what are.

Some of the things I hear a lot are definitely scissoring. People are like, that doesn't happen. For some reason, straight people are really protective of me with these kind of things. And my old editor would be like, oh, come on. People don't scissor. Like, Zara, isn't that stupid? People think, like, lesbians scissor. And I'm like, oh, I scissor.

Yeah, right. With your legs. Like, potentially. Like, your legs are coming together. Like, yeah, right. Yeah.

I mean, I see.

Like, it's computed, right? Yeah, but it's not. Like, not every night.

Like, not every night. But, like, people do. And I think people are always like, oh, that's a porn thing. But I. I scissor. I'm Zara Barry and I scissor.

We're totally okay with that.

So what else do I hear? Oh, yeah, that I think that people think that we're all experts on oral sex, too.

Well, I hope you are, because I was hoping to pick your brain.

I mean, I'm an expert on oral sex. That's only just because I've had a lot of practice. But, you know, it took me a while, too, first time I went down there. Like, just because I have the same parts doesn't mean I know what I'm doing. And women, every woman's body is so different and what she likes. I feel like with men and my experiences with men, it's pretty straightforward what they like.

Yeah.

And women, it's like each woman has a different trigger point. Some women, you know, like penetration, some hate penetration. And each time you get a woman in front of you, you have to figure it out. You have to figure out what she likes and listen to her body. And I've definitely had plenty of sexual experiences with women where they didn't know, you know, what they were doing. It was like being with a guy almost, you know.

Oh, they don't know what they're doing with you.

Yeah.

Yeah. Do you feel like we're not all great lovers?

Unfortunately, no, we're really not. But it can be taught why I exist here on the planet. But I feel like. Do you have a lot of women coming to you? Like, oh, I haven't been with any woman and I want to be with you.

Yeah. I get people more of, like, come to me for tips. Like, I have a lot of, like, readers that are bi curious, and, you know, I don't even know how to talk to a woman. And that's why I try and talk about this stuff so openly, because I remember being like that. Yeah.

You know, started out. We get a lot of questions like that as well, so. And I know you've written about this extensively, too, but what are some tips for women who are like. Jamie, who's in another room, who works for me, she was, like, just saying on the show last week that she's like, if it happened, like, I might be interested. And I think there's a lot of women who just feel like they're open about it, but they would not know where to start. So what would be some tips?

I mean, I think that the best thing to do if you're bi curious is to get on Tinder honestly and be upfront and just say that you are bi, curious, or bisexual, and that you're, you know, looking to experiment, but you're inexperienced because you don't wanna. What lesbians hate is sort of being fooled. Like, they don't want, like, say they go on a date with you, and then you realize, ooh, you know, I'm not into this. I'm. I'm only into men. It doesn't feel good.

Right. You know, just, like, we wouldn't like it if a guy came up, you know, shut up, and he was. Was, you know, whatever, married, misrepresented himself totally.

You don't want to be anybody's experiment. But then there are plenty of women who are down to experiment with you. So just be open about it. Be honest. I mean, there are plenty of women who are. Actually, I know tons of lesbians who are turned on by being the teacher. I'm not.

Right.

You know, I like someone who's more experienced than I am. Personally, I feel like I'm a leader in so many aspects of my life. Like, sexually.

Please. That's how I feel, too.

Do you feel like that?

Yes. Because I've been out with guys lately. I'm just. Just, like. I know he could use my help so much, but, like, I help, like, millions of people do the podcast every week. I don't. I don't want to teach this guy. Like, I want him to learn. I just want to be, like, listen to some episodes and then we'll, like, go out again. I know what you mean. So you want someone who's. I get it.

Yeah.

It's their job.

Totally.

Like, I want, like, off time when I'm having sex, but. But I do think it's true. Yeah. I'm trying to think about. And I've, like, experimented. I've dabbled, and I'm trying to think of what I think. I just. Yeah, maybe it was a little confusing at first, but you just. Yeah, I mean, you just kind of, like, be honest.

Yeah.

And I want you get down there. What did I do? I kind of remember I was a little drunk.

I mean, definitely with women, communication, you know, women like it. Like, I think my experience, like, women love when you ask them what they like, and just. You don't have to pretend like you have it all figured out. Just be like, does this feel good? What do you like? You know, you can even say, like, I don't really know what I'm doing. Can you help me? And I think a lot of, like, women are into that. They want to help you. Also, like, listen to her body I feel like with men, women, everybody, I'm sure you feel this way. Like if she. You can tell if someone's responding to you. So don't get so in your head and worry about what you're doing and instead put your focus on the person.

Right? Get out of your head, everyone.

Get out of your head.

I think they were so worried about what they're thinking, but the information's right there. Like, pay attention. Like, is her breath changing? Is she moving towards you, away from you? Like, there's a lot you can tell. Yeah, in the moment. But I think just like, you know, our brains are, you know, our biggest enemies.

Sometimes I think that's the best sex tip I ever got, was. It's funny because my mother used to always. I was always shy growing up. And she'd say, okay, if you're shy, put your energy on the other person, start asking them questions. And then I've sort of like translated that to sex. Like, if you're feeling self conscious, just instead fixate on their body. Like, are they in tune with you? Is this making them feel good? Are they moaning? And then before you know it, then you're into the. You're out of your head and you're into the sort of meditation of sex, which I think is when the best sex happens. When you're just sort of like. Like when you let go. It's like dancing. Exactly. That is the body knows what to do, you know, it's the brain.

It is the brain. The brain is. I mean, I think, like so many of the questions I can answer. It's like, you're like, I can't have an orgasm or I don't know what to do. And it's like, get out of your head. But you don't want to totally, like get into trance. But there is a point where it starts to flow like dancing. You're not worrying. And it is true. Just like in life, like, you know, you got to give to receive. That it's a really good tip that like, when you're worried, just keep like, giving. By giving I mean, like asking questions or saying like, what do you like? And there's a lot of women though, I think I hear they're like, I don't know what I like. Like, gay, straight, whatever. I don't know, I don't know. And that's when I was like, just masturbate. Like, figure it out. Like, how did you figure out what you liked? Did you always masturbate? Young age.

Totally from a very young age. I mean, and you know what's really funny is I always tell people this, is that when I first masturbated, I thought that it had given me hiv, because I knew. Is that such a weird stuff? It just goes to show, like, lack of education does to people, because I knew that, you know, one of my mom's friends had passed away from aids, and I knew it was, like, something sexual, but I didn't know what sex was. And then I figured out that masturbation was something sexual, but I couldn't. You know, no one had ever talked to me about it. So I spent, like, six months in third grade, like, convinced that I had HIV and that my parents were gonna, like, hate me because I was selfish. And I had. I. Like, I couldn't resist the temptation. And then finally, somehow, I connected the dots, and it was like a huge wave. Like, I remember it. I remember being like, oh, okay, I'm fine. But, yeah, I started masturbating young. And I think it's so important.

I know. It's the most important thing I know, especially for women to figure it out, because I think a lot of women feel like their partner's just gonna figure it out or just happen during sex. And it just. We just know that that doesn't. For some women, that doesn't happen.

No. And also, like, no, me neither. And for me, I always thought that sex was, like. You know, even as a lesbian growing up, the way I grew up, I always thought that, like, it was sex really wasn't for women to be enjoyed. You know, it was about pleasing the other person. And I hear that all the time. Like. And, you know, you think of high school, and it was like, this girl gives great head, but you never heard rumors about, like, oh, this guy is paraded going down on girls ever.

Like, you know, guys didn't even do it. They didn't know. You're so right. It's always about this, like. Or this slutty girl who was labeled as doing stuff. You're absolutely right. We are not. And I'm trying to change that. And I. Yeah. Even with young girls I know today, like, 17, like, high school girl, they're like, same thing. Like, it's about pleasing the partner.

Yeah.

They don't masturbate. They don't know what makes them feel good. So if you're young and you're listening or your parents of young children, they don't know. They're not gonna figure it out on their own. It's the same thing. And it's, like, horrifying because I'm like, I really think things have change. Like, I really think that young women today, young girl would. It just would be different with all the sex out there. But it's in many ways it's not. It's about like pleasing the guy or looking good for them or putting out cause they like him more or whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just not the case.

I'm gonna welcome my guest, Dr. Drew Pinski.

Hey, there. It is fun around here. That's why I can't stay away.

I know, right?

I keep coming back.

You gotta keep coming back.

The pounds of lube especially.

Dude, don't leave without pounds of lube. I got a backpack for you.

Old lube.

Yeah. Dr. Drew, it's so funny. So I never listen to my podcasts, so I've been doing it for 12 years.

Yeah, I don't listen either to mine, to anything I do ever. Almost never. My wife listens to stuff, so I sometimes hear it in the background and I cringe.

Right, exactly. But it's not even so much. Cause I've already gotten over the fact that my voice is like this. And I say way too much. It's more like I was there and I feel like I really have to listen. Do I really have an hour? I want to listen to something else.

Absolutely. If I were going to evaluate myself, I'd probably listen for five minutes and I'd have many, many notes in five minutes.

Believe me. That's the thing. And then I want to change everything, so I just don't. But then. So you're coming back. You've been on the show. You were on one other time. There were two other times.

I'm sure it's twice. But the last time we had a really good conversation.

We had a party that was a party. Like, that was fun.

And then you saw me speak at the human gathering.

That's right.

If you thought that stuff was interesting.

Exactly.

Different stuff than we were talking about.

Different stuff. But what I was gonna say is. Well, Right. Cause that's what I wanna talk about as well. So it was when you were on the first floor and you were like talking about how. We were talking about happiness first of all. And you were talking about how it's this elusive thing and there's all these books on happiness and no one ever defines what happiness is. And then you're saying, you know, it's actually about, you know, you were saying that you're grateful if you're grateful a few times a day. That's what you Know, can make you have to sign that you could be happy.

And it also adds to happiness, too.

Yeah, it kind of adds to happiness. But then also when you were talking about. And this might be too much because we do have callers, we have things that we're doing.

It's a little away from sex a little bit, but go ahead.

But I don't know, I just. When you were talking about your experience, I think it was with your thoughts therapy. Rational motive therapy. Is that what it's. Emotionally focused therapy, Emotion focused therapy. And you were talking about how you had the patient and you heard that.

Yeah, I hear these things and I feel these things, and it happens to me all the time.

Yeah. And then that's. I think that's. But it's like the embodiment and it's the work and it's. So a lot of what people are feeling, they don't even know what they're feeling. And how it manifests in your body and how you learn to connect with people. And then you got on the floor and you were talking about our parents. You're like, if you're a parent, you have to mimic back their emotion.

And then you got on your knees and, well, this woman was like, how am I going to be a great parent? I'm like, do this. Get down to your kid's level. And I was trying to show and be face to face. Let your body attune. And when it does attune, guess what? Your heart rate will mirror the kid's heartbeat. Your. Even your hippus, your. The pupillary movements in your iris will actually mimic your kid. And then just stay open and reflect back on your face and appreciation of what the child's experiencing. And that little model is an exchange that we can use in everyday life. The mirroring in our face. Women do that almost automatically. Do it very slowly.

They do.

They do. You're doing a little bit of right now, even with me, and I'm acutely aware of it because I had to really do a little bit pronounced as a male in order to set the boundary and to show that appreciation of what they're experiencing. And if you remember on celebrity rehab, the patients used to give me shit about it. Go, no, there he is with that sad face again. It's like, no, I'm signaling. I'm not. I'm signaling. It's a different. I'm not catching your feeling, but I am deeply appreciating your feeling. And I'm signaling you. I'm not telling you because telling goes to A different part of the brain. The signal goes to the deeper, right sided, holistic, embedded part of the relationship.

And is that something that you think as a physician, you learned it or more through the therapy? I feel like you were talking about your therapeutic experience that allowed you to connect more with yourself and then with everybody.

Some of my therapeutic experience as a patient, I was talking about my therapeutic environment as a practitioner. And then I was talking about my disciple. What's the word for all? Like the disciples. I was talking about all the people I. What were Jesus followers called? Disciples.

Disciples, yeah.

There are like, there's disciples out there that. I am their St. Paul.

Right.

There's a guy named Peter Fonagy whose stuff I'm describing now is a guy named Alan Shore. There's a guy named Stephen Porges, a guy named Dan Siegel, a guy named Bessel Vanderkolk, who I forgot to mention at the Bench. These guys, I'm telling you, these guys have worked this stuff out and I, I listen and read their stuff like I'm reading the Bible as I'm just. Oh, I'm just in awe of it. And so it's because Deep, deep application. It's the next hundred years. I'm telling you, it's the beginning of the next hundred years of understanding the human experience.

Right. And I think that a lot of, well, a lot of what we talk about is we're always saying, Indian Loveline, you should see it. You should see a therapist, you should go to therapy, you should do this, you should do that. People, I don't know, it's just like, it's another, it was another way of showing that how much that experience. People don't really get it. They're like, I go talk about myself and pay 300 bucks.

There's lots of bad therapists doing.

There's so many bad therapists.

Behavioral therapies which have evidentiary sort of practice associated with them. They work, they work for short term problems. But really I almost thought, I thought, I don't. I think I said this. We should have a different sort of term for, for this sort of finding meaning. Fully evolving mental health.

That's where it's all right, but I think that a lot of it is about your thoughts.

It is, but it's not mental health. It's like mental evolution or something. It's, it's, it's, it's mental mindfulness. No, it's realization rather than health. Self realization. Again, we're back to.

But just as important, I don't know. Okay. This Is what I just.

But all our craziness comes out in relationships. Nowhere does relationships come out more than. No craziness come out in a relationship.

That's why we all need a little bit of therapy. Like, I have a hard time, I think too, with people who. Dating someone who hasn't. And I think we have a lot of callers today that we can help along that line. But what I want to talk to you about first is a little sex of the news. I want to talk to you about the dick click.

The what? Oh, when your ligament clicks.

No, that's not the dick click. This was in the news today. You might have. You were probably doing some radio shows. No, dude, listen to this. So there are plenty of male contraceptives in development at the moment, but a new switch device has been revealed, which may be the strangest of the lot. A new device called the dick click works in the same way as a vasectomy, but it's like an alternative. It operates via surgically inserted valves.

I don't know where this one.

Do you know this? And there's literally a click on your penis that would. They could be like, I want the sperm on, I want this sperm off.

Who's gonna remember to do it? It's not had been fully researched.

It's really drunk or something.

Reversed reversible vasectomies have been tried a million times and they're sort of.

They don't work or they do. We were talking about them before. I'm like, do they work?

They don't work reliably. And this is a company that really doesn't have the research yet to say.

They'Re going to see the pictures of it. Have you seen the pictures of it? So this thing probably wouldn't have. Men won't want to take responsibility for this at all. But.

But it's a good idea.

I just want to show you the switch, you guys. We'll put this on our website. But look at this.

Yeah, this.

It's like they put the switch in their scrotum.

Yeah, yeah.

Literally, that doesn't work.

Yeah, well, that kind of.

Men don't take responsibility.

Well, no, when you look at the. The penis implants, the penis pumps.

Yeah.

They're kind of like devices like this. But those are. That's a lot of hardware. It's not a minor thing. It's a big deal. So, yeah, I had read about that and it started like, it's not. Gonna. Probably not gonna happen.

Okay. None of this could happen. The male pill won't happen. Because then, no, no, I have a headache side effect.

No, no male pill will have something like that. Will have. Because it's not about. But they cannot do it hormonally. In men, you can't do it.

They can't stop the sperm, right?

So it's going to be some sort of blocking agent, either blocks capacitance. Before the sperm can penetrate the egg, it has to do something called capacitance. The head of the sperm has to change in a certain way that helps it penetrate. So it's either going to interrupt with the movement of the tail or the capacitance, I think.

And you think it's really going to happen someday.

Someday. It's. Take a while.

I just feel like that we're spending so much time on the female pills and stuff like that. They're not gonna. That men wouldn't take it. They wouldn't be responsible. I don't know. Okay, that's another thing. Should we get some calls? Drew, is there anything else going on in your world?

Oh.

Oh, finally. No, no, no. I was gonna say, finally they have some. Finally they're admitting, oh, guess what? Oral contraceptives cause depression in female. Oh, my God.

They're just saying that.

They're just really sort of coming out with it in a big way. And it's like, no. How many times on Loveline do we say, are you on the shot? Are you on progesterone?

Every day, Every.

Right, that's right.

Why don't they warn women at all? I would think that there's a. More information now. But now we know the fact. I mean, Anna, everything.

Oh, my God.

Anna.

Did Anna have a problem with this?

Anna? No. Did I say Anna?

I thought that's what you said.

Oh, no. I said, and on the last show, no, but Anna. I don't know if Anna did. But when I was on the last show, we were talking about how women have no information about sex. They're disconnected from their bodies. Younger girls, like when they're first having sex. Yes, we talked. You're like me. See, I didn't remember either why everyone loved this show, because everyone here loved it too, with us. So I was like, okay, I'll listen. Yesterday I ran. I'm like, I'm gonna listen. And I'm like, oh, this was pretty good. We talked all about how women don't under. What did I. I wrote it down.

Because I still don't remember. I'm sure what I was talking about, though, was how mystified it makes me that in this day and age, how that's possible.

That's what I. They. I was upset because I had family. I had family and friends who have kids who are 17. And they're like, sex hurt. I don't understand sex. I don't masturbate. Gross. And it hurts inside of me. The penis, the condom. Ew. And they don't understand. They don't understand sexuality. They don't understand why they should masturbate. They don't even know why. They don't want to be vulnerable, so they don't even want relationships with anybody. So they're just having sex to please the guy. Nothing's changed. Because I felt that way, Right?

And that means there's something biological in this. Right? And so we have to. There's a difference. And guess what? Everybody. Men and women, are different biologically. So you have to help them with that biology. You have to treat the men. You're trying to get them not to do something, but you can't get them to stop. And the females, you're trying to get them to engage with it, to be a part of it.

Exactly.

You know, it's funny. I saw something on. Do you ever watch that show?

Oh, this is.

This is way out of your demo. But Frankie. And yes.

Yes. Just because everyone's talking about it. Yeah, I've seen one episode.

Okay, well, Susan loves My Wife, loves that show. And in there, they eventually get a vibrator business. It reminds me of you a million times. The second, third season, they really get into this vibrator business. And one of the character, a male. Young male's female partner, they have sex. They do it for a long time. She says it's great. And he leaves the vibrator behind. The mom's vibrator device, which is supposedly this wonderful, super special device.

They are super special.

I'm sure something like that exists in your closet already.

We'll get some treats.

Yeah. And he hears her after they've had this long session, masturbating and making a different sound, and it freaks him the hell out. And I thought, oh, that is so much about the man. And he confronts her. He goes, look, how come. How come I couldn't make. This is like the man. We want you to have the ultimate experience with our penis.

Exactly. That's it.

How come you. Well, I couldn't. He was, like, so upset. He goes. She goes, oh, no, no, it's not better. It's just different. We're like, okay, here's what I heard. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Exactly. And it wasn't my penis. My penis was not in the room.

But we have. When you say it's different and it sounds more intense, we just hear, we missed out. We didn't hit it right. It's weird. And we can't imagine. We can't literally can't imagine. Imagine that there's an equivalent experience that's better or good. That's not about orgasmic intensity. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely.

Because we're fully in that sort of biological zone in our sexuality.

No, that's true.

Even though we appreciate the connection, we like the intimacy and stuff. In terms of the orgasm part, there's an orgasm, it's either intense or super intense, and that's it.

And if it's super intense and you weren't there and it was different than the ego, it's the ego, too.

It's more than ego because it's not biology, but. But it's a language we don't understand. Because I still, as someone who tries to be very attuned to all that, I really don't understand. I watched that scene. I went, I have no idea what she's talking about. And yet that's a real thing. I know that's a real thing. I really don't know what she's talking about.

It would be like if you used, let's say, a fleshlight, like a male masturbation sleep. All you could think about is like, that's still your hand, though. I mean, I guess a vibration doesn't. You're just saying having an orgasm with a vibrator, not a penis, is not. What do you.

No, see, you don't understand what I'm saying.

I understand what you don't understand.

Right, Right. That's the craziness here. Men will have more intense experience based on who they're with. Novelty, what their eyes are perceiving and what you're experiencing.

Right.

That's the. That's the rest. That's the right. Is that. Is there anything I need a vibrator.

I'd rather be with a man and, like.

More noise than the vibrator. I'm already jealous. More noise, the vibrator. What are you talking.

Huh?

Maybe my orgasm. Maybe. You said the orgasm sounded different on the TV show.

I know. And you just said you make more noise to vibrate. Sometimes I have more orgasms and I'm jealous. For your partners, I'm immediately jealous.

I make a lot of noise.

Am I right? Look, there's another man sitting here. He knows.

Michael. What you'd be jealous.

It's weird. And there's no reason. I understand. It's totally right.

What about when you masturbate? Isn't it different? Like.

No, it's just. Just whatever we're looking at, that's what we're looking at.

Yeah, but then couldn't we. But women are threatened all the time by male masturbating. They're like, I don't understand why he's looking at.

We're not threatened. We're hurt. We're disappointed. Right.

But women are disappointed all the time by their partners who watch porn. They're like, oh, my God, does she want me?

They're threatened. We're not threatened. We're like, why? Why? I'm hurt. Why can't I. Why can't I do that?

Cause you don't vibrate, but you just.

Can'T bring one in my brain.

There's actually ones that can attach to your penis, your fingers. We could turn your penis into a. Like, wrap something around it.

But then you guys won't. You won't bring it all together. Like, then you go, no, no, no, until you left.

And then we take it off and leave that here. Let me take it off your penis before you walk out the door. I know it's all very confusing. Okay, we're gonna. We're gonna take some calls.

Let's do it.

But this was. This is a good time, right? I mean, it's.

To me, it's. We didn't talk about this at all. And it did.

Cause.

No, we didn't know.

I was just saying. We talked about women and sexuality and how confused they are. But. No, we. I don't.

But this is.

This is the.

That difference. That. That is a perceptual difference.

And we're not teaching kids well.

But it's. It's.

It's.

The perceptual difference is so profound that we don't understand what each other are talking about and trying to. And open to it. And we can't do it because it is such a different experience for men and women.

I know. So people have to go easy on themselves, I think, too, because it's like relationships, they're going to be. It's going to be a challenge if you choose to be a member of that.

But that's just the sexuality part. I mean, then you layer in all of our histories and psychologies and interpersonal craziness. Then here we go.

That's why I'm really happy living alone with my 16 vibrators. Truly. And dating. And then I have a choice to go home. Okay, we're going to.

Anybody interesting?

No, not yet. I have like three days.

I hope they're listening.

They are listening. Here's the problem. So I'm dating guy.

If they weren't. If they weren't upset enough about knowing they couldn't give you the certain sound with their penis, now they're truly crushed. Well done.

That was a little castrating ballbuster.

I never knew that women make different noises too. Like, like, you know, like evolutionarily speaking, wasn't it when they were with a man, a different man. It was like their mating call. Like the more sound this. When they're made noises, louder screams. It was because their partner was coming home and they were like, you know, they were like, we're talking about like cavemen. When they would.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's why, like, it's all about, like, mating calls.

Yeah, it is.

So I'm like, mating call with my. My vibrator.

No, I understand, but, but, but it's something that your. Your actual mates are concerned about.

They are listening, some of them, but I. Because they find out what I do.

I know.

And then they listen. And then he's like, so you're gonna bring his lube? He sent me like an emoji. He sent me an eggplant emoji as a joke today. I have a date tonight. And he's like, I wish there was a lube emoji. I'm like, we've never met and you're talking to me about lube, but you've been listening to my podcast.

Inappropriate.

How dare you cancel. What are you doing tonight?

I'm always getting you to cancel dates.

I don't know. I know. Okay, so, Drew. Drdrew.com by the way. Is that what we said, everyone?

Yes.

I wouldn't have known that had I not listened to all our podcasts. Interesting to listen. Drdrew.com you've got a million podcasts which just go there.

I got this Life got Weekly infusion. We have Dr. Drew podcast. We have the me and Adam podcast. So if you have anybody fans of Loveline out there, Adam, and we're still together.

There are.

We're contemplating. Mike and I are contemplating doing one. They've been podcast because a lot of people.

Mike Atherwood, who was the other host. Yeah, a lot of people. We have a lot of international listeners who might not know about Loveline. So you guys are going to do another podcast in your spare time. You could just do it at the KBC or whatever, right?

Yeah, we could. Yeah, good point.

Okay, good. Should we give a shout out to our sponsors and we'll be right back. Thank you, everyone for listening to the show and thank you for supporting our sponsors. We love them and we only, like, talk about people and work with brands and sponsors that we actually use, try, believe in, and we hope you will too. We'll be right back.

I hope you guys are enjoying the episode. The next half features Australian sex and relationship therapist Cindy Darnell and John Weinland, an expert speaker and teacher in the practices of masculine and feminine energy and spiritual intimacy. I'm here with Cindy Darnell, one of Australia's leading sex and relationship therapists. She flew around the world just to be here with me today. I know you were here for other reasons, but Cindy Darnell is one of Australia's leading sex and relationship therapists. She is amazing. I've been hearing about her through my good friend Elle Chase, sex educator, who's also here in the room for years. And she just explained, she said she's like the Emily Morris in Australia. Cindy, I'm so glad you're here. Welcome to the show. We have a lot of listeners in Australia and you're just so impressive, everything you've done. I like your website, your blogs and all your amazing stuff you've going on. It's super impressive and I'm glad that I you're here and that you made it into the studio.

Thank you. I'm really glad to be here. I love, I love, love, love being.

In the US So tell me a little about yourself because you have an interesting, like, niche, like connecting with, like, couples and singles and working people in relationships. So can you tell me a little bit about how you like, I wanted to sign up on your website. Oh, good. Like, I was like, wow, you really can help people with anything. You know, I really can. You actually see, you see patients, clients. Yeah, I see clients, clients. One on one, on one, one on.

One, couples, two on one. Yep.

So, yeah, tell me, tell me a little bit how you work.

So I call myself a sex and relationship therapist. That's the most accurate description, I guess, for what I do and what that means is I work in a therapeutic context. So I'm a qualified psychotherapist, but I specialized in sex and relationships because it's something that I think a lot of people still really struggle with, particularly in Australia, around the world as well, because it is such a taboo and a lot of relationship therapists tend to not want to do or they've not been trained in managing sex stuff because I think the narrative that is so common is that sex and relationships are the same thing and that if you're a relationship therapist, then you must also be a sex therapist. And they're actually really quite different fields. They're complementary, but they're not exactly the same like coffee and milk. You know, they go great together, but they don't, you don't need to have them together. You can have them separately. So my interest in sexuality and relationships has been, I think it really started in sexuality about 20 something years ago. I had the pleasure of meeting Annie Sprinkle and Barbara Careles when I was very, very young. And Barbara Karelles and I in particular formed a very strong friendship back then. And so she's been a mentor to me for many, many years. And so much of the work that I do has been influenced by her ideas and values. And even though she's not a therapist, she's very much someone that I credit with kickstarting my career in Australia 20 years ago in this field. So I've gone on since then.

For people who don't know who Barbara Karellis is. Could you.

So Barbara Karelis is from New York and she's the author of Urban Tantra, among other things. And she also is, I think, one of the world's leading tantra experts and she's also one of the world's pioneers in teaching tantra from a non gender specific aspect. So she has sort of blown the whole idea of sort of divine masculine and divine feminine out of the water and has really pioneered a whole new approach to tantra which is all gender inclusive. And she's amazing. And her partner is Kate Bornstein, who is well known for being a very well loved trans activist and most recently on the Caitlyn Jenner reality show. Yeah, they have both been. So it started with aunties, my sex.

I love it. They were here. But, but you've, you've stayed in touch with over the years. Absolutely. Mentor.

Absolutely.

Okay, so. So it started with, with that and then you, you got your degree in therapy.

Yeah, so I went and studied therapy first. I was just a regular, you know, garden variety psychotherapist first. And then I found that the, the therapeutic community in Australia and in internationally is on many levels quite conservative, especially when it comes to sex. Because there's a lot of misunderstanding about even the concept of what, what is sex, what is normal sex, who has it, who's allowed to have it, and the notions around all the taboos and what's allowed and what's not allowed really throws people. And because, you know, we've all pretty much grown up in some version of a sex negative culture. If you haven't learned to talk about sex in helpful and meaningful ways, even if you're a trained therapist, you can be trying to be helpful with your clients and still make mistakes. If you're feeding in to old ideas that are limiting and, and shaming of people's sexuality. And I don't just mean their orientation, I mean their practices, what they actually do.

But the relationship, I, I, but the relationship therapists do. I agree because I feel like people that it is so different and that I actually think a lot from a lot of my listeners who call and who, who email the show. I'm like, they just need, people need sex therapy more than relationship there.

Yeah, well, yeah, it's, it's complementary.

It is complimentary. But the fact that, you know, both and most, and I understand that most relationship therapists really don't.

They don't.

It's a whole different. How would you explain. I think you do it well on your website, but how could you explain the difference what someone would get from relationship therapy and sex therapy?

Well, it would depend on the problem that they're having. Because I think we all get tricked into different beliefs about sex and relationships because of the narratives that we are taught from a very young age. And this happens through movies and books and news and just, you know, common assumptions about how things are. And I think one of the biggest things is that intimacy and eroticism are the same and they're really not because you can have intimacy that is very sort of vulnerable, making heart connected, all that kind of, you know, yummy, mushy, security oriented stuff. And that can actually put out the fire of eroticism for a lot of people.

Cancels it out. Right.

And that, that can be problematic for people in long term relationships, particularly people in long term monogamous relationships. How do we navigate that space between wanting to feel safe and wanting to feel hot, you know, so this is where it becomes a particular skill in dancing between those two points on the spectrum and what is possible and also engaging people in conversations about what's normal. Because I think a lot of folks get very, very invested in being normal, as in sort of in contrast with being content that people really want to be normal. They like, you know, they'll say to me, how often should we be having sex? You know, and they want some sort of like, you know, 1.7 times a week or whatever. And instead well, I'll say to them, first of all, what kind of sex are you talking about? And then it's like, why do you, why do you want to be normal? Why do you care what other people are doing? What is it? What matters to you? And people get spend so much energy on trying to be normal and very little energy on trying to be content or trying to be happy.

So true.

And it takes them away, it distracts them from where they could actually find the contentment that they're looking for.

Absolutely. I mean, there's so many things in what you just said. I'm like, I want to talk about all of them. Because I do feel like, well, first of all, we get, you know, hundreds of emails here a day questions. And I feel like everybody just like at the end of the day, like, am I normal? Is it okay? Just tell me. I'm okay. Tell me. Okay. That's the number one question. Right? Like, is it normal? And it's like, it's like, how does it feel to you? Obviously, if it's harmful to your life? If something's, you know, if you're, for example, with porn, if you're watching too much porn and it's a problem if you can't go to work and you can no longer have an erection or then, then we could talk about it. But most things people are worried about are they're fine, it's okay to express your sexuality. Giving people permission to find out what is hot for them and what works for them. So I think that's such a great, interesting way to describe it like that. Why does everyone really care? I was like, you're fine, you're fine, don't trip on it. But also when you're talking about working with couples, so one of the top questions we get asked and probably things that you deal with is libidos, mismatched libidos and couples, because of what happens in that long term relationship where intimacy does kind of stamp out desire and they all cancel. We get close and comfortable, we become one, but yet we don't want to have sex with our partners. And, and people always say, you know, and then they go to a relationship therapist only. And I'm like, what do you just keep talking about the same issues over and over again and you're never going to get down into what's really going on. So I'm guessing with sex therapy you kind of help them untangle that probably remove resentments that have built up over time.

Yeah.

And, but then also in dealing with, it's interesting Intimacy versus eroticism. So if they come to you and they're like, well, I don't even know what you mean by like. Do you help them identify what's erotic to them and share fantasies and stuff like that?

Absolutely. Well, yes. And I don't necessarily think that sharing fantasies is always the helpful thing.

Not all fantasies.

Yeah. So sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. But helping people work out what it is that turns them on, that's in contrast. Yeah. In contrast with what it is they want to have in a relationship. Because what we lust after sometimes can be very different to what we want in a partner, in a life partner. And that is, I think, a relatively common quandary for folks. And it's something that we are not equipped to manage because our sex and relationships education at school doesn't navigate that ambiguity, you know, and for a lot of people, what's hot is the ambiguity is that area of, oh, I don't know about this. And that for a lot of people is sexy. Do you want to open a bank account with someone that makes you feel a bit unsafe? Not necessarily, but it can be a real turn on to go, oh, you know, what is it about this person that's so intoxicating? But we're not gonna get a mortgage together.

Exactly. So how do you keep them? So what is it with. I know it's not just one answer, but how do you help couples fan those flames again and feel like, get that ambiguity back when they're like, we've been living together and we own a house and have six children?

Yeah. Look, it's, it's not easy, I can tell you that. But it does involve what I call a degree of self inquiry. So you need to go back and look at what your motivations for having sex are now.

Yeah, you said, okay, let's go back to that. So they have to think about, they.

Have to think about what their motivation is. So if they are looking for a motivation, that is what, you know, like lust oriented. That they want to feel that lusty, kind of hot energy that you feel when you first meet somebody. You might not get that again in a long term relationship. I'm not saying that you, you won't, but you might not. So I often refer to it as that kind of intention of sitting at the. You're trying to get to a destination, but you're sitting at a bus stop and you're waiting for a bus that never comes because you're waiting to feel in the mood. You're waiting to Feel hot. You're waiting to feel excited. And that bus isn't coming. And in the meantime, you're sitting at the bus stop and all these cars are going past and Ubers are going past and your friends are going past taxis. Everybody's going, you know, do you want to ride? Do you want to ride? And you're like, no, no, I'm fine. I'm just going to sit here and wait for the bus. And you sit and you sit and you sit and you wait for years for this bus that never comes. And in any other situation, if you had a destination to get to, you would. You would walk if you had to get there. But for some reason, when it comes to sex, we are so invested in having lust be the motivator that we will sit and wait for that bus even if it doesn't come.

Right. And we don't even investigate what. Yeah.

And we don't investigate other modes of transport. If we want to get to a place, we might have to get there in a bunch of different ways. And if that bus isn't coming, that's going to be okay. How else can we get there? Can we catch a ride with somebody else? Uber, taxi, whatever. And that's the thing with sex, is that folks get really locked into. It has to look a certain way and it has to be a certain way, and it has to be like it is in the movies, or it has to be like it was when I was 16.

And it's like, maybe it's not. You break that down. You break down. Absolutely. And that can take a bit of work. Wild. Oh, yeah, it does. I mean, I was gonna ask you about. Because sex education here is abysmal. We don't get any sex in Australia. So. Yeah, I mean, Australia. Because I told you, like, we do have so many. Hello to all my Australian listeners and all my listeners.

But.

But yeah, I was just wondering why the huge influx lately also of listeners. I don't know if like. Like what you're saying is. It's just even you're. It's less there. Even less education, less.

I don't know that it's less, but it's just. It's. Sex is not something that's necessarily socially talked about. I mean, there's a. There's a presence of sex in the media, but it tends to not be especially robust. It tends to be very kind of light, and it tends to be sort of very focused on being normal. There's not a great exploration of sort of alternative sex practices or alternative relationships. That is slowly starting to happen, but folks are still, you know, trying to. Playing the normal game, I think, in a lot of ways. And slowly, slowly, that's going to start opening when we get more access to more information.

Right. Is there anything that you see as a difference, though, between. You've spent a lot of time in the States and. And Australia. That's kind of a different kind of approach to sex. Besides not talking about it, is there anything, I don't know, trends or things have come up lately that you're like, oh, that's interesting. In Australia.

I think. Is it all the same?

It's. It's pretty much. Much all the same in terms of the information that's fed to us through the media is similar to what's going on here. But in terms of, like, when I teach classes in Australia and when I teach classes in the US I'm often amazed at how much more open Americans are with their personal information in public spaces.

Right.

Would never, ever.

Oh, my God.

Those kinds of questions in public. They would come up one at a time and, you know, I'll be at an event for an hour and a half afterwards answering questions one by one. That would happen in a public forum in the U.S. we're like, I was having analysis.

Yeah.

Australians would never, never, never do that. Right.

Yeah, I guess that's it. But really, it's just sex. It's just this big enigma with sex that. I agree with what you're saying that we all think we will work on every other part of our life. Yeah. Well, anything we want to be good at or we want to strive, we want to achieve goals. Like, we'll work really hard at our career, on our health. Like, if we want to, like, run a marathon, we'll train for that. Our spirituality. But sex is like this mystical thing that we believe should just be amazing and perfect all the time, because it was really good during that glorious honeymoon phase the first few months. And it's magic. People think of sex as being this magical thing, and when it's gone, it's poof. Yeah. And it's just like, I spend so much time, you know, as I'm sure you do, just trying to get people even. Just the basics of it. It's gonna take some work. The bus you're gonna have to look at where you're going, but it's, like, fun. It's like, this is an interesting kind of work. This is the best kind of work you could do. It'll help every other area of your life.

So I just and also, I think it's a process. I mean, it never ends. You know, I've been studying sex in various forms for over 20 years and I still feel like I don't know everything. I know a lot of stuff, but then I think I get to a point where I know a thing and then it changes. And I'm like, ah, actually, no, it's not that exactly.

That's my guest, John Wineland. Hi, John. I just love bring. Come. I'm gonna bring you in now. I'm going to go through some things here, but John's awesome. I'm really excited to have you here today.

Thank you.

We were talking a little before the show about all the questions we get asked from listeners. And I was like, a lot of it is about, like, how do we keep that sexual attraction alive? And what is sexual attraction? Like, if we don't have it at the beginning, can we build that? And then when you're in a long term relationship, you know, we never want sex at the same time. How do we really connect? How do we enhance intimacy? And what John brings to the table is he's a coach. And how would you explain your work exactly?

Yeah, it's a, it's a different.

I tried. I was like, I'm gonna come up with one sentence and I said, I'm just gonna ask him.

Yeah, I teach sexuality, right. I teach men and women, so I teach sexuality. Spiritual intimacy is what I call it. And embodiment, like, what's it mean to be sort of bring yourself fully into your body and then have sex versus having sex as a way to kind of get into your body? Yeah, yeah. What, what that does. And, and then I also work with people teaching meditation, I teach movement, I teach all kinds of things in between. But mainly it comes down to how do I deepen my relationship? How do I have a better relationship? How do we have better sex? How do I communicate with her? How do I make her happy? That happens a lot. Like, men really want to know, like, why can't I make her happy? I love her, she loves me. But she's always pissed, right? Yeah, yeah.

I mean. But really, like, I feel like I'm responsible for my own happiness.

You know what I mean? Like, yeah, if someone doesn't make me happy. I understand what you're saying, though, that women, like, he's. We want, we want our partners to fill all these things for us.

Right, Right.

Ultimately, well, that.

See, that's a tricky one because.

Self sufficiency is a beautiful thing. Right. But if you're too self sufficient as a woman. Right. So women are, are well ahead of men and actually passing men in the capacity to earn money. In 20 years, women are going to make more money than men. Across the board, we know that when a woman is self sufficient, everywhere in her life, fantastic, happy, everywhere in her life, fantastic. And the relationship can only be as good as the states that both people bring to it. So yeah, of course, however, what the masculine craves is to be able to lead someone who wants to trust him someplace that she can't lead herself. So what I see with women a lot is they're super successful. Most of the women I work with are super successful. But they bring that self sufficiency to the relationship and they don't offer the place where they actually need a masculine partner. It could be a feminine partner. Right. Either way. But they, they don't allow their self sufficiency to drop away at the crucial moments of relationship and sex. And that actually pushes men away.

Yes. So I see what you're saying. And I was kind of just being like, I'm responsible for my own happiness. I get it. I've been with many a man who I'm just like, ugh, why, when I'm with you, I feel worse after. I'm not saying that I haven't felt worse or if guys haven't made me, but I do think that I am probably one of those women for sure. And I wasn't always. You know, it's like at this point I am, I take care of myself, I am successful, I have really good friends, I'm. God, I have a lot of issues too, but I could see that I, I could possibly be coming across that way. And then guys are like, I don't see where she needs me. And it's not necessarily like, I need you to pay my rent or I need you to, but in other ways that I could soften. And I always thought of myself as like, but I'm such, I'm so feminine, I'm so, you know, but there is a certain energy, the way I move, the way I talk, the way I, you know, what I would offer to men. So what do you tell these women? Where would you start with me? Let's just turn this to a therapy session. Do you guys all mind? Because I need a little help.

So, yeah, I'm not. So there's nothing wrong with that.

I know, yeah.

It's all great to be, you know, in the stages of relationship. We go from this place of give me what I want. Right. Like Give me what I want to. This place of. Let's make it about us. Right? Let's make it. I'm sufficient, you're sufficient. We're whole human beings and that's beautiful. But what happens? What gets created in that place where both people are self sufficient and they're kind of living their own lives, but they don't work on the. What we call sexual polarity, meaning the celebration of their opposites. Then they become like magnets that rub against them, each other. Right. And if you take a magnet that rubs against another magnet and they were attracted, but they're just constantly. It'll be, It'll. It'll take away the attraction.

Exactly.

So normally what happens is that the attraction starts to diminish because the masculine partner. We're talking about women specifically, the masculine partner wants to be. Okay, so we'll dive right in.

Yeah, that's.

Masculine partner wants to penetrate. Like the masculine in me, the masculine in you. Like the masculine wants to penetrate. We want to penetrate the world. We want to penetrate energy. We want to penetrate.

Right.

And if there's not an invitation to penetrate some part of you, like, not your business, not your, you know, not stuff that you're handling just fine, but the depth of your heart, right?

Oh, penetrating my heart.

Yeah, penetrating my heart.

Be open.

Yeah.

Oh, and like vulnerable.

Yeah, of course.

So annoying. That again.

Okay, so when you're self sufficient and you're holding that back, then we're like, well, what the fuck am I doing here? Where's, you know, we actually get nourished by your opening surrender, that kind of thing.

So we'll talk about embodiment minute because I want to go back to the masculine and feminine. So when I was thinking about this show, I was like, I could talk to you for six hours. So masculine and feminine energy, though, I think that we all sort of understand that we all have a masculine and feminine within us. And sometimes I, for example, we were saying I might lead with the masculine and how do I play with my feminine? Is this something that we could kind of explain, go to a little bit more, finish this and then kind of.

Yeah, it's really good to define these terms.

Yeah, let's define them.

Yeah, you're right. Everybody has a masculine and feminine, but at our core we have one or the other. So those of, you know, those listeners, man or woman. Right. Who prefer to be penetrated, like prefer to be pinned with some, you know, by somebody that they trust. Ravished.

Ravished.

Like we're talking sexually. Penetrated.

Sexually, yeah. Okay, so Your sexual.

Talk about sexual, not my heart.

Yeah, well, it's both. I mean, there's no disconnection, right? There's no disconnection.

Penetrate me all over.

Yeah. So, you know, the great masculine gift is that I'm gonna ravish your heart through your body. Like that's the, that's the masculine gift to the feminine.

But that's hot.

But for a feminine being, she prefers to be penetrated, she prefers to be ravished. Right. Well, the masculine being prefers to do the ravishing, Right. Prefers someone, someone to surrender to his leadership or his heart or his consciousness. And so that's how you can tell what your essence is, right. What you prefer sexually. Now, a lot of, lot of people these days want to go back and forth and that's awesome. But if they don't nourish their essence and they don't live in their essence, then there's this sense of dissatisfaction. There's this sense of not feeling like they're really being, could be who they are and they don't attract the opposite. So what I see with a lot of women is that their essence is totally feminine and they want somebody that they trust to lead them relationally, sexually, that kind of thing. Take me someplace I can't take myself. Right? That's the value. Yeah, please. This is what I hear from women all the time.

Take it.

Take me someplace I can't take myself emotionally, sexually, you know, lead me that way. Right. And, and, but to do that, they've got to be a magnet for somebody that wants that. And, and so sexual polarity is the celebration actually of, of the essence, the masculine essence in a man or a woman, but typically it's a man and the feminine essence in a man or woman, but typically it's a woman, woman. And when you have those two extremes magnified, it creates an arc of what we call sexual polarity. Like the south pole and the North Pole.

Right.

Yin and yang. I mean, this is not new stuff. People been talking about this for thousands of years, right?

Yeah. That's why this is also. Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, this is, it's tried and true.

Yeah, yeah.

So bringing it up.

So that's why many long term relationships. Because I know this is a question listeners have. Why they're always asking, why is there no attraction? Right. Because they're not. They have a lot of resonance, which is beautiful. Resonance creates intimacy. Intimacy is the, the we're the same. Like, I'm human, you're human. I have a heart, you have a heart. I might be Afraid. You're afraid. But that's not very hot, right? I mean, it's beautiful. And it's. It's. It's one pillar of sexual intimacy. But the other pillar has to be. Let's celebrate the difference. Like, what makes you feminine at your very core? What's the essence of feminine? And the essence of feminine from where? From how I've studied and how I teach. It is the essence of feminine is I move love through my body. Right? And the more I can move love through my body, the more someone with a masculine essence. Who's. Whose essence is. I'm. Consciousness. Right. I'm.

Your listeners are. My, like, might freak out right now, but I'm surprised.

Yeah, yeah, go there, go there. Stick with us, guys.

I promise. I am in the essence. I am at the essence. That which never changes. Like, I don't change. Like, the masculine in me is the same always. The feminine is changing all the time. So you get this. That's why in workshops we teach the men to actually be still and the women to move. Because you put those two together and you can see it. It's just like immediate, energetic, immediate sexual polarity, immediate heat. And most couples don't practice this. They're doing the same thing at the same time again and again and again. And they don't actually practice sexual polarity, which is like any skill, playing piano, doing yoga, you know, anything, you have to practice it.

Yeah, I always say this. It's like sex is a skill. I think we all assume for some reason that sex, we should automatically have all the answers, know how to be really good at sex, whatever that means for you, and it shouldn't be work. And what else in your life. What else in your life are you great at that's really important to you that you didn't have to work at. And it's a skill, and so it's okay. And that's the other thing that is interesting, after 12 years of doing this and reading all of your emails and talking to everyone, is that people are truly every single day, surprised that it happened. They're like, wow, we were. Sex was so great, Emily. The first three, six months, year, and now it's not. What do I look to the first person that it's happened to? Right? Because people are like, I don't understand and I can't get it back. And this is part of the practice. This is going to happen. I'm like, let's prepare for it. And then here's what we do about it.

Yeah. Well, there's so many reasons why that happens. Right. I mean, you know, they've proven now that once you commit to somebody, like once you move in together or decide to get married or have a baby or some kind of commitment, you're destined to relive your childhood programming. Like it's now proven. So we're gonna attract people that do the same shit that our family did.

Exactly.

We're going to, if we don't attract them, we're going to take the person who comes and we're going to actually make them do that.

Right, right. Self fulfilling prophecy.

We're going to make them do that. You know, imago therapy is a beautiful, a beautiful approach to this and they've explained all this. So we're going to do that. Imago therapy. Yeah, yeah. I am a go.

Right.

And so what to do is no one, it's not a problem. We all do it, but most of us are unconscious about it.

Exactly.

So we got to get conscious, like, oh, I'm doing this thing, I'm making her do the thing that absolutely kills me. Or I'm making him do the thing that is going to ultimately make him do what my deepest wound is. And most of us are unaware that we're doing it. Once we're aware we're doing it, then we can make art with it, we can play with it, we can fuck from there. We can do all kinds of cool things. But if we're unaware, then we're just gonna unconsciously recreate it.

Thank you for listening and thanks to my amazing team. Ken, Jamie, our interns, Shannon and Jenny, producer Lark and Michael. And thank you everyone so much for subscribing to the show, supporting it, reviewing us on itunes. We appreciate it. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwith emily.com.

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