Sex & the Brain with Dr. Helen Fisher

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Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them, in a bygone day. Hey, Emily, you got a boyfriend? Cause my man E here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards. Oh, my.

Do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean? Like laundry? It shrinks.

Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding?

Me.

Oh my God, I feel so good.

Being bad feels pretty good. But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships and everything in between. For more information, check out sex with emily.com for even more great sex and relationship information. Catch me Monday through Friday on Siri XM stars from 5 to 7pm Pacific for even more fun sex talk. And you can get a free 30 day trial at sex sexwithemily.com sxm as always, find me on all social media exwithemily okay guys, I really hope you enjoyed this interview that I recorded with Dr. Helen Fisher at her home in New York. She's a renowned sex researcher and biological anthropologist. She has been an idol and inspiration for me. I swear we are kindred spirits. She's a senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute. She's a member of the center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Rutgers University and chief scientific advisor to match.com she is has truly paved the way for research about love and personalities, sex drive, attachment and all the things. I really hope you enjoyed this interview with Dr. Helen Fisher. Dr. Helen Fisher, she's a biological anthropologist, senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, member of the center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Rutgers University, and scientific Chief advisor to match.com and you really, truly have paved the way for research about love, personality, sex drive, attachment and been named by Business Insider as One of the 15 most amazing women in science today. Written six internationally, best selling books on romantic love and future sex including why We Love, why Him, why Her? Anatomy of Love. And you truly have been a pioneer in all these fields. A pioneer in examining the neurochemistry of business, team building, innovation and leadership. But that's more recently. But I have to tell you the story. So I started this podcast in 2005 and I was in San Francisco and I was driving and I was just still learning everything about sex because I came into it like all I knew was like, sex could be a lot better than it is, I think. And I just started interviewing people about sex and relationships. So you happen to be on NPR and I believe you were being interviewed about why we love. And I remember I pulled off the road, I grabbed a piece of paper and I just started. I was like so blown away because I had never heard about the three types of love. I was just, it was so new to me to learn about lust and attachment and craving and all those things. And I was just, I think I still have the piece of paper because I don't throw anything away. But then I just got all your books. I started reading about you and just. I was like, you know, and then whenever.

That's such a sweetheart. Thank you.

Really. I mean, I mean it. You're. You really are pioneer. And everyone just is such. All my friends. I can't believe you're talking to Alan Fisher. So thank you for taking the time.

I'm delighted. I've always heard about you, and we had a good time a few years ago.

Well, that's what I was saying. We had this moment. We were both at a match. Because I know you do such amazing work for Match.com or your advisor for them.

Yeah.

And we were speaking in an event. It was a very interesting panel. It was Helen and myself and Patty Stanger, the matchmaker and Perez Hilton. And the four of us were talking about the. The match panel. And then afterwards, we. We were just talking and I just remember feeling like we were both women who chose not to have kids.

Absolutely. Never wanted. Never wanted. Never wanted to.

No. And you're okay with that? You're.

I'm not only okay with it, but, you know, I see young women today, and I, you know, I always say to them, at least I was never disappointed that I didn't have them. In other words, a lot of women are worried. They don't want to have them, but they are afraid that down the road they're going to get disappointed. Now it's just me, but I, you know, I mean, I've had two men in my life who had children who I helped to raise, but they were already in their teens. I love teenagers. I love to be with teenagers. I mean, I love being the other woman. You know, I don't have to worry that they're not wearing socks or that they're, you know, not studying hard enough. I don't want anybody killing themselves. But it's fun to be not the mother and be sort of an older person who can give you. Give some advice or listen to them. So many times they say, don't tell my father, and I don't tell their father. I'm building a different kind of relationship with them. And, you know, I mean, I'm an anthropologist, as you know, and for millions of years, you know, young people had all kinds of people they could confide in. I mean, they lived in a little community, a little hunting and gathering group. And you had your mother, but you had aunts and uncles and cousins and older brothers and sisters and younger people and, you know, all kinds of people that you could talk to. And I like playing that role for the young. For anybody. I get.

Yeah, no, no, I get it. And that's exactly. It's exactly how I feel right now is that. And now we're really missing that because I have three nieces. All my friends, kids call my friends. Kids call me now. And I'm like, I will not tell your mother. And I won't. I never would. It's like a great. It's like being the aunt to everyone.

Yes, exactly.

It's the best relationship. But I think that's so interesting what you're saying about it. And I've been thinking that a lot lately, too, how we move away from our communities and like it used to be we were hunter gatherers and everyone was around our mothers and our. Our grandparents. And now we have this isolation and this epidemic of loneliness that we talk about. And I think that that's. That's really real.

Yeah, I don't know whether it's real. I mean, I haven't studied it. I certainly read about it. But I do know that those people that spend more time on the Internet also have more friends and see their friends more often. So, you know, I. There's always two sides of this.

There's two sides to it. That's true.

And by the way, I mean, you know, we. We send over 15,000 emails and I don't even know how many text every year. I mean, it's just that there' not right in front of us all the time. I mean, you know, I am in constant contact with all kinds of people. I mean, I lost my cell phone two days ago, and it was a major problem for me. It was a major problem.

No, I'm not saying. I'm just saying we're just isolated. I guess I was thinking about the way I was raised without having family around and stuff, so. But let's talk about the stuff that you are.

So just one thing about not having family around. I think that we build new family, the community. Yeah. And for example, I call it the urban clan. Now, I have an identical twin sister, but she lives in France, and I have an older sister who lives in Germany. And I, until very recently had a brother that lived in, you know, Independence, Missouri, and nieces that are all over the place. But I have a clan in New York. I mean, I have a group of people in New York and they're all different ages. I mean, one is 24 and one is 86. But, you know, these people I could call on if I Was really in any kind of trouble. And so we do build family.

We do.

It's just not the traditional concept of family, you know, And I think that's one of the reasons that sort of these holidays can be very difficult. You will go off to your family of origin, your natal family, and you really don't know a lot of them. You don't know what to give them for a present and this and that. And you leave your urban clan or your, you know, your work clan or your exercise clan or your social clan, et cetera, et cetera, which are people who have suffered through sort of the daily problems that you've suffered through. So we are an animal that builds family.

That's true. No, that is true.

But I do think that when you talk about loneliness, this whole thing of fom, you know, fear of missing out, and there's no question about it, that because of our Internet world, we see what everybody else is doing. We see where they're traveling. We see all the photographs of where they went. We see all about their boyfriends and their problems and their girlfriends, et cetera. And I do think that maybe that's what they're, you know, saying when they're talking about loneliness. I mean, we're seeing a lot less murder among the young, but a lot more suicide. And that probably is from loneliness.

Yeah, I don't know. I wasn't even talking about loneliness. I just. You know what it is? I've just been thinking a lot lately about family and attachment. And just thinking about that. It was so much. Maybe it was a little easier than we had everyone around us. And now you're right. We are rebuilding it again. We are. We are building it. And, you know.

Well, the nice thing about. Is that we can build what we want.

Yeah, exactly. Choose our family, let's be honest, for a reason. Can we talk? Right. Okay. So let's. Hi, Mom. Love you mean it. But you're in Michigan, and that's cool. So. But let's. Okay, so, I mean, so when I pulled off side of the road when I was listening to her, but it was the first time I. Can we just talk about. To break that down to my listeners, like the three basics of love. You've talked about this for years, and then we're going to build upon this. But the lust, romantic attraction, attachment.

Yeah, I was. I was walking actually in. In a park in New York City several years ago, and it suddenly occurred to me, I wonder if we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive second is feelings of intense romantic love. And the third is feelings of deep attachment. And that all kinds of love, I mean, you know, is some combination of those three. Now, I'm not. You would not going to be in love with your mother. You just feel deeply attached to your mother. You're not going to want to have sex with your mother, et cetera, et cetera. So there's going to be all different kinds of combinations that we make. But I think that these three basic brain systems evolved, and they evolved for different reasons. I think the sex drive evolved to get you out there looking for a whole range of partners. I mean, you can have sex with somebody you're not in love with. I think romantic love evolved to enable you to focus your mating energy on just one at a time and start the mating process. And I think this feelings of deep attachment evolved to enable you to stick with this person, at least long enough to raise a child together as a team. So these things do different jobs. We feel attachment to all kinds of people. What's interesting is when I looked into the brain, romantic love can be triggered instantly. It's like a brain system, like the fear system. You can be scared instantly and you can boom. You can fall in love instead.

Like the love at first sight.

Right.

But isn't it more lust at first sight?

I think it's often love at first sight. You know, I do all these studies with math.

Let's talk about all your studies.

And one of the questions was, do you believe in love at first sight? Not sex at first sight or lust at first sight, but love at first sight. And over 50% of both men and women said yes. And when I asked the question, has it ever happened to you? I think it's something like 40% of men had said yes. And a little, I think 29% of women or 30% of women had said yes. But you have to be ready for it. I mean, you know, as you grow up, you. You evolve what I call a love map. An unconscious list of what you're looking for in a partner. And then suddenly the time is right, you're ready to fall in love. And you see somebody who fits within that love map even somewhat, and they smile at you and they laugh with you or they crack a joke, and instantly you can trigger that brain circuitry for romantic love and fall madly in love. Not just lust, but in love. And, you know, these three brain systems, a lot of people get them mixed up. They feel that lust comes first and then romantic love and then feelings of attachment. But these are brain systems. They can operate in any combination. I mean, you have some wonderful friend at school or at work, and it's just a nice attachment, and you feel deeply attached. And then suddenly you're free. They're free, and boom, you can feel a romantic love. Then you can feel the sex drive, or you can fall in love first, and then suddenly everything. Once you fall in love with somebody, Everything becomes sexual about them.

What if you get stuck though one of these phases? What if you're only, like, in the last phase? Like, aren't there people who can't move on or can't attach?

Right. I think that different times of life, we're looking for different kinds of things. I mean, I know a guy right now who just really wants to sleep around. That's what he wants to do. He just really wants. He does not want any kind of attachment. He had a long attachment to somebody, and he's done with that for the moment. Well, he'll probably get back to it. We'll see. And then there's some people, I call them romance junkies, you know, and they need that thrill, that dopamine high, the elation, the giddiness, the euphoria, the romance. And so as that begins to settle down a bit into a deep attachment, Then they'll feel claustrophobic and want to move on. And then there's people, I call them attachment junkies that can't leave a bad partnership because they're stuck. They have that sense of attachment, even if it's quite abusive. So actually, I think that all three of these brain systems can be perfectly wonderful, and all of them can be perfectly horrible. I mean, I think you can have a real sex addiction, A real romance addiction, or a real attachment addiction, but when they're working well, and when you've found all three in the same person, that's a beautiful addiction.

Right? Exactly. How is this change? I mean, this is. Because this was a huge. This was huge research that you did. It's made a huge impact. And what do you say has been one of the biggest impacts it's had on the way people think about love and attachment. Or at least how could people. What could people learn from this now? Like, how could they learn about themselves and the way they date and the way they love?

I think my recent research is probably the most important for that. It's on personality.

Oh, yeah, let's.

You know, I mean, I think you really learn about. It's nice to know about these three brain systems. It's nice to Know what's happening to you.

Right, right.

And it's nice to think a little bit clearly about it and, you know, stay away from things that don't work. I mean, I said to a man last night, I was at this gala, and he said, well, so. And so. And he broke up. And I said, well, stay broken up. She's not the right person for you. You know, I've known their saga for several months, and there's just too much drama.

Right.

And they're, you know, they're both wonderful people, but they're not right for each other right now, and maybe they never will be.

So timing or it's. I mean, so your person. I love your. We took the personality quiz.

Oh, you did? Oh, how wonderful. I bet you're just like me.

I don't know what I'm.

Dopamine. Well, estrogen explorer. Yeah. Explorer, Negotiator.

Yeah. Explore, negotiate. Absolutely, yes. And I'm like, of course. I knew without even just reading the dopamine. I'm like, yes, I am dopamine.

Yeah.

So. Well, let's talk about the personality, because not everybody knows this. We can send them to your quiz as well. We'll put this in the. Put this in the show notes so people can take your quiz. So let's just talk about the research you did. Love and personality types for a second. So. And then we'll break it down to that. We're the same.

Match.com came to me in 2005 and said, you know, why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said, I don't know. I mean, nobody knows. I mean, we do tend to fall in love with people from the same socioeconomic background, same general level of intelligence, same general level of good looks, educational level, same religious and social and economic goals, reproductive goals. But you can walk into a room and everybody's from your background and same level of intelligence and good looks and educate. And you don't fall in love with.

All of them all the time, so.

All the time.

Michigan. I got a nice guy for you. I'm like, no, not interested. Right.

Where in Michigan? Atticus.

Bloomfield Hills.

Okay.

Yeah.

I only know Ann Arbor.

Yeah, I went to school there, but it's.

Oh, okay. Yeah, great school.

Yeah.

But I began to think to myself, okay, maybe basic chemistry draws you naturally towards one person rather than another. I mean, people will say, well, we have chemistry or we don't have chemistry. So what does that mean?

What does it mean? Alan Fisher.

Emily is so cute.

You're the one who's studying? Really? You're the one like, everyone's like, well.

So anyway, what I did is I went through the last 40 years of biological literature looking for any trait at all linked with any biological system. And there's a lot of systems in the brain, but they keep, most of them keep the eyes blinking or the heart beating. They're not linked with personality traits, but these four are the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen systems. So I listed the traits of each one of these basic brain systems and made a questionnaire for match to see to what degree you express the traits in the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen system. Over 14 million people have now taken that questionnaire.

In 42.

Yeah, that's very cute. And in 40 countries.

And 14 million is quite.

People love questionnaires. They really do.

They love questionnaire Cosmo in the day, right? We all love the quizzes. But now.

And because this one is the only, actually the only one on earth that is built on basic brain circuitry. No, no. I mean, I know that's bragging, but the bottom line is.

Oh, no, you brag. Alan Fisher doesn't brag enough. Jesus.

Thank you. Thank you.

Really.

So anyway, so here are the four traits that are linked with each of these systems. And then I was able to watch on match in all these countries who's naturally drawn to whom. And that's where I had suddenly slipped into mother nature's kitchen and begun to figure out, why him? Why her? Why you fall in love with one person rather than another. But anyway, no, why him?

Why her? Which is also, if you guys are interested in this at all, you want more. It is your book. Why him? Why her?

Yeah. And the questionnaire is in that questionnaire.

Yeah.

In much more detail and how get along with these people. But anyway, people who are very expressive of the dopamine system. I call explorers. Emily, you're one risk taking, novelty seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, mentally flexible and idea generation. These are the people who come up with out of the box ideas and they're drawn to people like themselves. Explorers want explorers. They want somebody who's going to leap off the couch and I don't know, go swimming in Central park or go racing over to Lincoln center at the, you know, 10 minutes before something's gonna start and just go in and plop down whatever they want to, you know, take their backpack and go off to Laos and look in the woods or whatever. Explorers.

I did that at 25, went to Laos. Okay.

Really? I I love Laos. Me too.

I loved it. We should go back.

You're the only person I've ever met who'd been to laos.

Really? Yeah, 25 years ago.

Wow. Yeah, I went about 10 years ago. Maybe. Probably hasn't changed.

No, I don't. Probably not. I was like bushwhacking, dude.

Wow. So there you go. Yes. Here's an explorer.

Yeah, well I've been to 107 countries. Yeah. Including North Korea and Mongolian, you know, that's the explorer. Anyway, the bottom line is the high serotonin. I call these people builders. They are.

They like the familiar. They're traditional, conventional. They follow the rules, they respect authority. They think, they like think concretely instead of theoretically. They like schedules and plans.

They tend to be quite social and they tend to be religious. Religiosity is actually in the serotonin system and these people are drawn to people like themselves. Traditional goes with that.

Makes sense.

And a good example is Mike Pence or Mitt Romney. I mean they've married people who are very traditional like themselves. They follow the rules, they're very structured, they're concrete thinkers, they're principled.

Well, in taking your quiz, like do you think you do you follow the rules? Rules? Like do you like never, never. Right.

I mean I follow the rules if it makes sense to me, but that's about it. I'm good on the road. I follow the rules of the road.

Mostly. I love this. You're great and, but anyway, so that type goes for that type and so the highest testosterone goes for high estrogen and vice versa. So people who are very high testosterone tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough minded, skeptical, good at what we call rule based systems. Everything from engineering to computers to math to mechanics. Steve Jobs was a good example, I'm sure. Bill Gates is Hillary Clinton. I heard Hillary Clinton is. I think she's high testosterone. She was actually interested in going into the Marines. I mean she's tough minded, that girl. And she married a high estrogen.

That's what's amazing. But when I heard you say that, that Bill Clinton was probably high estrogen.

Yeah. Well, these people are verbally skilled people. Skill. Whole world knows he can't stop. Negotiators and directors. Directors of the high testosterone and the negotiators of the high estrogen and negotiators. Yeah, they think broadly, contextually. And of course that's you because the person constantly interviewing people, constantly thinking outside the box, constantly looking for other ways of seeing a particular issue is going to be high estrogen. Person. Verbally skilled people skills. Can deal with ambiguity. Yes.

Very good. Nurturing, trusting, diplomatic, generally. And mentally flexible. So they go for their opposite.

So we're explorers, right? But you said we go. Would we only date other explorers, though? Because to me, who's gonna pay the, you know, bill? Who's gonna make sure we get place on time? You know, that's why I think maybe I've been more attracted to testosterone. Are the directors.

Well, the bottom line is. We are. We are. We are. Yeah, we are. All for. I mean, the problem with all these other personality questionnaires is that they put you in one bucket or another. These are brain systems. They're not buckets. So, for example, my boyfriend and I are both high dopamine. That works fine. He. I am high estrogen, and he is high testosterone, so that works fine, too. He is higher serotonin, and in this case, I mean, he's not that high or I wouldn't have a hard time at it. But he's higher than I am, and so he plans everything. And it's sort of beautiful because, I mean, yesterday we were driving through Pennsylvania, and, man, he knew where we were going. He knew how long it was gonna take to get there. He got our hotel room. You know, we got to the hotel too late, and we were looking forward to go to that restaurant. He immediately got on his phone and found another really nice place to go. All of that. If it had been you and I, we would have gotten out the door and started walking.

Ex. No, Exactly. This is why we would have had.

A good time, too. It would have been fun.

We would have found someone that would invite us over for dinner maybe.

Exactly. Whatever. But.

But this is the thing with my ex. I was saying this, that we. He's great guy, but I'm like, no one planned anything. Like, I'm not a planner and that. I felt kind of like it just always. It was a thing. So I was like, how do I figure this out now ahead of time? I'd never been in that situation before because he kept saying, why aren't you planning stuff? I'm like, oh, in all my life, I haven't been in this situation because I must have always been attracted to the person who plans.

Right?

So anyway. But so using this quiz, and he.

Must have always been with somebody who plans.

I guess so. Because the things.

Oh, wow.

Well, not. Not a lot. I mean, he wanted to play video games. There was many things that didn't work. But, yeah, I love him. James always, like, really with the Boyfriend. But it's just interesting to learn.

Yeah, but what's really.

What's.

What's really interesting is. And now, for example, he and I were going to the movies. This was months ago. And I said to him, I said, sweetheart, do you have any water in your backpack? And he said, yeah, I do. And I said, oh, great, we can drink it in the movie house. He said, no, we can't. You can't bring food or drink into a movie house. You got to buy it at the concession stand.

Serotonin. He had a moment of serotonin, but.

You'Re like, no, it's put in the backpack.

I said, wow. But what's beautiful is, you know, I mean, I. Modern psychology is very good. It's all very good. But the bottom line is we are blaming everything these days on our mother and our childhood. Some of who we are is just biological. He wasn't stubborn about that water because of the way he grew up. It's who he is, is who he was born, is who he's going to be. And under those circumstances, you just have to do a workaround. You don't have to go to a psychiatrist's office for 15 years to wonder why he can't bring water to a moving house. It's just who he is. And then I said, oh, okay, we buy the water at the concession stand. So the bottom line is, I mean, psychology has added a great deal about who we are and how to get along, et cetera, and it's all good. I mean, John Gottman is a brilliant man about, don't show contempt, don't threaten divorce, listen actively. All very good. But the bottom line is, get to know who the person also is biologically, and you can make a good relationship. Now, for example, my man, he has these crazily wonderful ideas. I love them, you know?

Right.

And somebody else would think, be very impatient with all this, but it works perfectly for me. And it's who he is. He's not going to change.

Right. People don't change either.

No, they don't. They can. We can adapt if they want to, but, you know, I mean, could I ever make you uncurious? I don't think so. Could I ever make you. I mean, if you and I went to Laos together, I mean, we'd plan a little bit, we'd figure out where we were staying, but we wouldn't have a plan for what we're gonna do every day for three weeks. We would not do that.

I'm already keen to cancel day three, but Then I.

We'd bring a little guidebook and we'd get, you know, at breakfast we'd figure out what we were doing.

We could travel together. I feel like we need to do something together. But no, you're right. It's very. But so. Okay.

So.

So going back to this for a second, and I've had a lot of therapy and I've also had a lot of different kinds of therapy, but I thought it was useful. I know what you're saying, because you can spend too much time talking about your childhood because eventually you do just be like, understand where you came from and then move on from there. But what about. Can we go into attachment styles a little bit? Because isn't it important to kind of know why you attach or anxious avoidant and things about that? I've just learned. I'm constantly learning more about that too.

So am I. I'm really learning about that.

Personally fascinated by it before you're four years old. And then how do you know if your wasn't looking into your eyes like you're everything to her? What if she kept leaving the room and then you feel not loved or if you had abuse or.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, all of that's very worthwhile and there's no question about it. What I'm trying to do is add the second half of the puzzle. A huge number of other people are adding that half of the puzzle. Your childhood, the traumas, who you are, how you expect the world to behave around you, what you're looking for in a partner, all of that is, I think, extremely valuable. But there's a second half of this puzzle which is who you're built to be. And a good 40 to 60% of who you are does come out of your biology. Some people are gonna. Are. They're homebodies. They're going to keep being homebodies unless they don't want to be a homebody. And then they marry somebody who wants to go out all the time. And there may be some friction in it, but I mean, I think you just have to know not only who you are, but who your partner and your friends are. Now, for example, I've got a friend, a girlfriend, who's very high testosterone, I'm very high estrogen. So I'm. I just don't do conflict. I just, I just, I'm not in. I just. I just don't do conflict. I just. I can't cope with it. I just don't do it. So one day recently, I met her for lunch And I walked in and she said, helen, where'd you get that purse? And I said, well, I bought it in the street. And she said, it looks. It. It looks cheap.

I have friends like that.

And I said, marie.

And she said, helen, I'm just trying to be honest with you. I'm trying to be helpful. But the high estrogen type takes it as an attack.

Yeah. Yes.

And so when you understand that she's trying to be. I mean, I'm glad she said that. Right. And one of the problems with very high testosterone is that I don't fight back, you know, and then one time I did fight back, and I said, you know, and when I fight back, it's perfectly fine with the high testosterone. They're used to that. But then I go home and I say, say, why did I say that? Oh, I feel like such a heel. Right. Oh, I felt so aggressive. But, you know, and so, I mean, it's hard to not. It's hard to be somebody that you really are not. No, it's. We can act out of character. It's just tiring. And in my case, it can just be, you know, very socially anxious. Makes me socially anxious.

Same. It's so funny. I am totally conflict avoidant, and I guess. And I love what you're saying because, I mean, a whole, like, 16 light bulbs went off because in a way, it's like, I have friends like that, too, and I kind of like it with, like, no, Emily, you're not. Where. My friend came over. She. She must be high testosterone. She cleaned out my whole closet. She was helping me because I was too much stuff and cluttered. This is cheap. You can't wear it again. And I was like, great. Like, I. It wasn't. Didn't make me have sex. I'm trying to get rid of stuff. But she's so. And I appreciate her directness. And she literally was like, no, these are done. These are done. Get this rid of this. And we need people like that in our lives. But it's just funny thinking about the people we're attracted to. Me, even as friends. But, yeah, conflict. I've been like that forever.

It would be hard to travel with somebody like that for me.

Oh, yes.

You know, no, but you're right.

I know what you're saying.

As long as you can appreciate her and she can appreciate you. Does she appreciate you?

She does.

Well, that's important because I've got friends who just. They just think I'm weak because I'm sweet and I'm pleasant and I'M accommodating and I'm trying to level the playing field, and they take that as weakness.

Do they tell you. But when you're.

No, they treat me that way. You know, then don't you feel like.

That you don't want to be around those friends?

Yeah, it's not long because it's too tiring.

It is exhausting. The ones who are just draining, the ones that are drained. I think you learn this as you get older, you start to shed. And I've been working. There was Jamie, who's sitting here. She's my millennial producer, who I love. She's 26.

I love millennials. We have to talk about millennials.

We're going to get into millennials obsessed. But it's like, I'm like, no, this happens in life. Like her friends from high school. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know if they serve you. And it's okay to change and grow and shed, but it's absolutely. Well, women spend anymore if you're not. If it's conflict.

When you call.

Every time you call me, I'm anxious. I see the phone call. It's going to be stressful. No.

Yeah. Well, I mean, women hold on to their friends, particularly the high estrogen type.

Right.

They're going to hold on to their. You know, because they feel obliged. And. And, I mean, I think women.

On you.

Yeah. I think. I think women do an awful lot of things that they don't feel like doing. Right. Well, it's true.

But I guess as you learn that, you don't have to do them anymore. But I guess if it's part of who you are, I would.

I don't know. I haven't learned.

No, I'll always be a good friend. And I'm a pleaser, too. I guess. You're making me feel like it's okay. I'm a pleaser.

Yeah, me too. Horrible pleaser. Horrible please. Like, over, please.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. My friend finally said to me last week, she said. Said thank you. You just said, thank you so much. I'm like, I'm so appreciative, though. She goes, but after a while, it's diminishing returns. Like. Like you could just say thank you once.

And I. Oh, that's interesting.

I was like, see, because if you.

Said thank you all the time with me, I'd get it right.

I'm like, oh, my God. Literally. I'm so grateful now to be sick. You're out. I mean, I mean it, though.

I know. Same with me.

So who knows?

I mean, if it was you and me, it was so funny. I was doing this years ago. I was doing this photography thing with the photographer, and it was a woman and it was me, and we would get out of sync, so I would be moving when she was clicking, and I would say, oh, I'm sorry. And she'd say, oh, I'm sorry. And I'd say, oh, I'm sorry. She said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And finally, the guy who was her crew said, why are the two of you constantly so sorry? And I just said, we get it, we get it. Just don't bother us.

We're speaking each other's language, right? All right, guys, we're gonna take a quick break. And after this, more with Dr. Helen Fisher.

Okay, let's talk about millennials and the start of this whole, like, they get such a bad rap, right?

But it's such a bad rap, and it is so wrong.

And the whole thing, it is so wrong.

It is so wrong. I mean, first of all, this is these dating apps is just new technology. You have to learn how to use it. The only real algorithm is your own brain. You gotta get out and meet the person. And these dating apps, they're not, you know, as I say this at Match, they know it, and everybody else does, too. These are not dating sites. They're not dating apps. They're introducing apps. They're introducing sites. And what they are is they just give you an awful lot of people, and then you have to sift through it. The problem is the human brain is not built to even cope with so many choices. The brain has a sweet spot, apparently, between five and nine alternatives. And after that, you don't choose any. You just don't choose any. And I hear about these people who, you know, had 30 dates in 30 days. No wonder. I mean, they're just in a complete dither. They're not going to meet anybody. And so I basically ended up saying, you know, I mean, this. You just have to learn how to use this new system.

Number one, after you've met nine people, stop and get to know at least one of those people more. Because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them and the more you think that they are like you. So stop effort.

For men and for women.

Oh, yes, definitely for men and for women. Men fall in love faster than women do. Do men fall in love more often than women do? Men are two and a half times more likely to kill Themselves. When a relationship is over, it's exactly the same brain circuitry in men as women. But men just fall faster because they're so visual. Yeah, so? So there's two things. A stop after you've met nine people and get to know one of them better. And second, think of reasons to say yes. The brain is built to say no. We've got this huge brain region in the behind your forehead in a brain region linked with what we call negativity bias. The brain is built to think of the negative. For example, let's say we all go to a party and everybody says, oh, Emily, you look so great, and this and that. And then somebody says, emily, have you lost too much weight? What are you gonna remember? Just that.

Yeah. Like, why is she talking about my weight? Yeah, I'm too skinny. Right.

So, you know, that's just because.

For survival techniques. Right?

Absolutely. I mean, for millions of years, it was adaptive to remember who did not like you.

Right, Right.

And it's good to know who you do, who does like you. But if you forget who doesn't like you, you could be dead. So we remember the negative. And so when you go out with somebody, you know, on the first date, think of reasons to say yes. You know, overlook the fact that he's got brown shoes instead of black shoes, that he's wearing a T shirt instead of a tie. Whatever. I mean, if it's really obvious, then you gotta get rid of it.

Absolutely. Right. We're so picky. When people say they're so picky, they're so picky. They're picky. Then you're not gonna shoe anywh.

And women are pickier than men are for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons. I mean, you know, we're going to bear that baby, and that's going to be dangerous.

Baby comes out in black shoes.

But what about this whole thing about men decide who they're going to sleep with in 42 minutes or less or.

On a date, or women can decide within three minutes. Absolutely. But.

But what if we decided that. But you're saying even then go out with them for a second time? Even if we're not sure. We don't think we would. We might decide that we would.

Well, it's perfectly. I mean, if they're 40 years older and, you know, speak with a dreadful accent and don't have any te teeth. I mean, you go right split. But, you know, if. If it's a. If it's a maybe go out again. Absolutely.

Okay.

And one thing that's interesting about, you know, first of all, I'm crazy about millennials. I am really impressed with millennials. They, and you are so right, they get such a bad rap. These people are ambitious. Yes, they are. Really. They're ambitious. And what's interesting is, you know, people say, oh, they're living at home. Two thirds of people in their 20s are living at, at home. Yes, they are, but it's because they're saving their money and they're building their career. It's not because they're lazy and don't want to leave the basement. They are just ambitious. They're trying and they're being very careful about who they sleep with, actually. I mean, this whole big thing is, oh, millennials are not having any sex. One of the reasons they're having less sex is they're not living. They're living at home. You can't cart somebody in all the time at your parents house. But they are using what I regard as the sex interview. In one study I did with match, 36% of singles had had sex with somebo before the first date. And older people get all pushed out of shape about that and they think, oh, wow, you know, because in my day, because I'm older, you know, we had the first date long before you kiss somebody. These days, they start out with just friends. They're just friends. And then they move into friends with benefits. You learn a lot between the sheets. You get to know somebody. Then after a period of time, you go and tell friends and family, and then you have the official first date.

Right?

And so people say, oh, they're not having a first date early on. No, no, they're not. They're being more careful with the first date. And these days a first date is expensive. I mean, in my day, they pick me up after dinner and we played miniature golf or went parking or whatever. But these days it can cost you $200 if you're in LA or in New York. So you really want to know who you're spending your money and your time on. What we're really seeing is the extension of what I call the pre commitment stage, this long period of getting to know somebody before you tie the knot. I think that makes great sense. In fact, I did a study of 1100 married people and I said to them, you know, a lot of questions I asked, but one of the questions was, would you remarry the person you're currently married to? And 81% said yes. And I think that the. Well, I've got three pieces of very solid data that the later you marry, the more likely you are to stay married. So what millennials are doing is they're getting their career in order. They're saving their money, they're sleeping around. People sleep around. They're learning a whole lot about themselves, but they're also learning in this pre commitment stage, how to get rid of the ones they don't want. They're learning more about their own sexuality, about who they want, what kind of sense of humor, where they want to go. All kinds of things they're learning about before they wed. And I honestly think that this long period of pre Commitment. Commitment and the opportunity to meet people on the Internet, so you don't have to make, you know, foolish choices when you're 19. You can make a good choice when you're 29.

Yeah.

And have a whole lot of years to get to know yourself and other people. And then, so, I mean, you know, people do tend to divorce. I mean, I'm, as an anthropologist in hunting and gathering societies, they did tend to have two or three husbands during the course of their lives. So there's nothing new about divorce.

Right.

But I do think that the later we marry. Well, all the data show that the later we marry, the more likely we are to remain married because we don't.

Know ourselves in our time. I always say, wait till you're 30. Like, just kind of what? I mean, if you can't wait till you're 30 because you got to figure out who you are, we're not really. Not even really. You haven't made the decisions yet. You haven't been out there to date as many people to understand what might be.

Exactly. And I love the fact that people are living together before they went, you know, I mean, you. You get. You learn a lot with that, too. And that brings me to lat.

Okay. Oh, circle back. Lat. What is lat?

So it means living apart together. I think it's largely for people who are not gonna have children or don't want to have children now.

Okay.

And for example, my boyfriend came to me and he said, you know, he said, I want two or three nights. You know, his son went off to college, and so now we could spend a good deal of time together. And the first thing he said to me is, he said, you know, Helen, I want two or three nights to myself every week. Well, the first thing I did is I put my hand behind my back and I pulled it. I said, what do you. What do you really want? You want four? You want seven? Are we breaking up?

Yeah.

He Said, no, no, you know, two to three nights a week. It's perfect for me. I have all these girlfriends. I have all these things I want to do at night. Sometimes I just want to go to sleep and read a book, you know.

You don't want to have to be in bed with someone all the time. I understand that.

And so. And of course, I mean, what we're probably doing is sustaining this in this romantic tradition. But we're both older, right? Why not?

It makes so much sense. Your life set. You're setting your ways.

And he has his house and I have mine. And, you know, he'll be here tonight. He was not here last night, which is perfectly fine.

You look forward to seeing him. You're not picking up his socks, he's not picking up yours. Like, it's exactly, I think, that.

That he has his kitchen. He's got content of his icebox or, you know, fridge. And I, mine. And what I really like about today is that we have alternatives. You can marry later. Women can have careers. You can get rid of things that don't work in order to make something that does work. You know, some of these people are polyamorous. Well, that's not for me. I couldn't do that. But it's not a matter of morality. I just. I don't have the personality for it. I'd be too jealous. I don't want to show share. But. But the bottom line is there's people who are polyamorous.

The queer, the, you know, older people with lat, et cetera, et cetera. I think that we have every reason to be able to build the kind of partnerships that we want.

So then why is it still so hard then, you think, for some people to. What about when we say, okay, going back to millennials, who they don't want to catch feelings or they don't want to.

That's a great term, isn't it?

Yeah. I don't want to catch feels. I never heard that before you. It was like, before, like five years ago. But what does that. I mean, is that meaning. Is that protective measure? Or do you think that that's some way. I like to think, like, they never. Their friends aren't doing it, so they don't. They're not looking into, like, I don't understand that because I caught feelings a lot in my 20s. I couldn't help it.

Yeah, me neither. Yeah, no, I think they can't either, but they don't want to get committed. They don't want to get into that long term. Commitment. Another thing that you just said is you had never heard that term. Catchy and feeling. The millennials are adding all these words to our vocabulary that I really, really like. I mean, even this thing defined the relationship. Dtr. Now, in my day, you went out with somebody maybe for months, if not years, and you really had no idea if they were going to ask you to marry. Nothing was defined.

Is there a ring in his pocket?

And now it's defined. And in fact, I asked on Match, how long do you. When do you raise that issue of define the relationship? And I was astonished that they said after about four months, I wouldn't dare do it. That seems very early for me.

Oh, really?

But they want to know what's going on. They really do. They let this term being ghosted and ghosted and benched feelings and all these things. They're defining all this. I really think that's terrific.

Yeah, I think so, too. Because otherwise you're just like, going in this abyss. And then also, people also still make assumptions that, well, we slept together, so we must be committed, or we've gone on three dates and that person's probably not dating anyone, even though still they're not dating anyone else. And, like, don't make any assumptions about the person you've gone on three dates with. Like, if you haven't talked about it yet.

Right.

That's when you get jealous and all these things happen. So figure it out. And I think the sooner we realize that there's so many options, it's more accepted right now, too, to. To say to someone, I'm casually dating, I'm in friends with benefits, I want this or that. And then. And to say, then you won't, you know, be spending a year with someone who doesn't want the same things you do.

Exactly.

So it makes. It makes a lot more sense. Right.

As a matter of fact, even. I mean, it's so funny. You know, just friends have a very different set of unspoken rules than if you're dating now. If you're just friends, you can call somebody to go out the day of it. You can have three to five drinks, you can go to a fast food place, you can go over to their house and watch television. You know, whereas if you're actually dating somebody, you've got to call three days in advance, you've got to go to a decent restaurant, you can't have more than two drinks. I mean, they are defining all this. I am very impressed with them.

Really true. We appreciate you going back to this living apart together thing. I just want to talk about how that is such a great thing for even couples who are married and living together now could still learn from that. Because I've always had this hunch that, like, when as a young, you know, my 20s, I thought that makes so much sense, that to. To have that separation or to kind of. When we talk about how women crave novelty and excitement and all the newness, it kind of makes sense to. Even if you're even living together, how you can kind of still instill some of that separate.

And it just makes sense.

And I.

It's so interesting because, you know, I do know people who are living together and own the property together and, you know, own the apartment together. And they've lived. And very often, at least in New York, they'll have to even mesh their schedules because she's going out on Tuesday night with her girlfriends and she's going to the theater on Thursday with such and such. And what's he doing? And so they have to. I like that. I like the fact that, you know, I mean, what is it? As Kahlil Gibran, the poet said, he's. And, you know, put some space in your togetherness.

Yes.

And we really weren't built for 24, 7. I mean, even in hunting and gathering societies, women would go off to another camp for even a few weeks. I mean, they traveled, and they didn't always travel together.

Yeah. I mean, the couples I know who have this, or like, he travels or she travels for work every third week, it's great. Like, they really like that you get to miss someone.

Yeah, I think that's. Yes. I've got two girlfriends who during the week, the husband. Husband works in Boston and the wife works in New York. And then they're together on the weekends.

So, you know, it's like long distance, but they come. Yeah, I mean, I think that's something.

But I think it's nice in the beginning. I don't know.

I mean, but with kids, it makes it a little more challenging. Like, we're talking, like, right. When you have kids, it can be a lot.

Well, so it's so interesting because I was talking to a man who was recently married and has a. I think a child who's now something like 10 months old. And I talked to him about lat. Living apart together, and he said, oh, if I could have just one night, just one night every two weeks, just to myself, I said, I. I wouldn't go out with other women. I Just one night in a hotel room, and immediately my friend Said, oh, I bet his wife wouldn't like that. And I thought to myself, maybe she would. She probably would.

Probably the best thing that ever happened. Maybe they switch. He's home every week, someone goes to gets a hotel room. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think that we need that. God, it makes so much sense.

No, we aren't built for all this, you know, I mean, but the nice thing about these days is we can do that. I mean, you just have to be honest about it and work it out and build it up, build it together. And that's why my man was so great. I mean, I wouldn't have have dared to say that.

We wouldn't have said that because it would have been like. Right?

Yeah.

Because he needed the order at the serotonin.

I never thought of that, Emily, till this second. He needed the structure.

You need to understand.

Well done. Oh, my God.

Yeah. No, I'm upset. All your sisters.

I not even thought of that. But he also had a lot of therapy because of very bad partnership in his past. I had chalked it up to the bad partnership, but I think that you're right.

He needed boundaries. Tuesday nights. Which night did you come? Coming. Yeah. There you go. Thank you.

Oh, my God. Whatever I can do. Okay, let's. Let's talk about orgasms, oxytocin and attachment. So how orgasms bond us. Because I always say that on the show, but I feel like I've heard you talk about it in a way that. How it's just important to just touch in other ways and just the importance.

Of that bonding, attachment, you know, I mean, sex is good for you. It's good for you in many ways. And you can say all those ways better than I can. I mean, it's good for the skin, it's good for the lungs, it's good for the bladder, it's good for the sense of humor. I mean, it's just good for you if you're with the right person. And in fact, you know, any touching of the genitals drives up the dopamine system and can help you feel feelings of intense romantic love for the person. But with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin and vasopressin. And those are. Those brain chemicals are linked with feelings of deep attachment to somebody. So orgasm is good. And in fact, when I asked Match.

I do this annual study with Match called Singles in America. America, we do not poll the MATCH members, we poll the American public. So it's a representative sample of Americans based on the U. S. Census and almost 70 of women regard, do not regard it as good sex unless they have an orgasm. I mean, the old days where you're supposed to lie back and think of England are over.

Women want sexual gratification just as men do.

But can it get confusing though, too? Just if you. People who think that they can't be with several people because women are like, well, if I have an orgasm with them, I'm totally attached and I can't be with anyone else.

Well, I don't know. I never thought of that. But, but I mean, I do think that it brings you closer to somebody. I mean, that's one of the reasons that people, you know, sex is not casual. Unless you're so drunk that you can't remember it, it's not casual. I mean, things happen. You learn a great deal about a person. I mean, you learn, you know, not only size and shape and motion, but whether they're kind, whether they can listen, whether they can acc. Whether they want to please, whether they do have a sense of humor, whether they're, you know, Etc, Etc. So you learn a lot between the sheets. And I do think that once you get into bed with somebody, you know, I mean, sex, you know, triggers five of the 12 cranial nerves. I mean, you, you, you see them, you hear them, you smell them, you taste them, you feel them. I mean, the, the whole brain becomes activated by the whole experience. And of course, with orgasm is one of the most powerful feelings the human animal can have. So.

You know, it's good to have a partner that, that you like in bed. And, you know, I mean, it's not the only part of a relationship that you can certainly have.

Right. Just to remind couples that like, the touch is important too. Just touching and organizing.

Absolutely.

Not every couple's like, oh, we don't need any more sex. So usually there's one person that says that, but yeah, you do. You have to continue to connect or.

Figure out a way to do it. I mean, that's a, I mean, you're a sex therapist. But I would think that, I mean, I've always heard from sex therapists that's one of the biggest problems when one individual wants more than the biggest.

Right?

Yeah. And, you know, I'm not a therapist, but if, if I was with somebody, I would be tempted to say, listen, this is an important part of a relationship. If you're not interested, maybe you should try taking some testosterone or that's been amazing supplements. Yeah, yeah. Or, or, or, or, or understand that this is a, is a meaningful part for this other person and that you should try to accommodate. And the more sex you have, the more you want, the less you have, the less you want.

Right, but we forget after time like if we haven't had an orgasm for a while, right?

So no. And it's very good for the body and the mind. So I mean that's a very important. Now I mean there's some people who aren't terribly interested in sex and they marry somebody who's also not terribly interested in sex and that's fine, whatever. Probably not quite as healthy, right? But, but it's fine for them.

I'm obsessed with your personality types now. Are you the only one who pulled about these four types?

Yes, I'm the only.

I think everyone, I'm literally all I can think about now. I'm putting everyone into personality types and why.

It's an entirely new idea and the business world really likes it. I'm making more and more speeches in business because you know, I mean, how do these different kinds of people innovate? How do they lead? How do you build a team?

That same quiz that's on your absolutely same one for businesses we should figure.

That out because this is not about love, this is about personality and know. And so I mean for example, one of the problems in business is that people, if, let's say you're building a team, you tend to, to choose teammates who are like yourself because you can understand them. Right now if you and I were going to Laos, we might want to have a third person who, who gets the airline tickets. I mean we could reign them in. We don't want something, we don't want an agenda for every single day we're there. So it's, it's important to build a team with some of the people that, that you are not like, you know, I mean, for example, one of the things that, I mean, I am all for hiring women and for blacks and Asians and Latinos and etc. Etc. Etc. I'm all for cultural diversity, but how about diversity of mind hire putting some people in your team who do not think the way you do. I mean I've started this new company called Neuro Color and we've got a second generation personality questionnaire and we go into businesses and we train people on understanding these four styles of thinking and behaving and how to build a team and how to, how you want to be talked to. I don't like to be talked. I don't like it when the testosterone tells me where'd you get that purse.

Yeah.

I don't. Or that shirt is cheap. Get rid of it. I, I mean I can do it.

Right.

And. But it's tiring for me. I'm trying to be sweet and smile and.

Right. You know, but you might need that guy to talk to your sales people.

Exactly.

Not you. Like, you know, you got. That's so interesting because we're hiring. No, I want to have a personality.

Test so in my personality in.

People can hire you now though, so they can go to your site.

It's called neurocolor.

It's a company Neurocolor.

But the co founder and I, his name is Dave Labno and he's very high testosterone. I'm very high estrogen. There's a little clash there at times. But we're both very high dopamine. We need a high serotonin person. We need the builder. And there's times that we don't know what to do. And so we will call. We've got another two people in the company who are very high serotonin and we call them and ask them, what would you do under the circumstances? What do you think about this? Because we are not going to see it the way a high serotonin. The builder would see it. And it's very valuable to have people around who are, who can do the things that you don't do. For example, I was once. And also get them in the right job. You know, I was once out at Visa, the credit card company and everybody had taken my personality questionnaire and I could see that there was this one woman took my personality questionnaire. She was the head of the accounting department, a big, big part of Visa.

But on my questionnaire she was all explorer, all, all high dopamine. And of course in accounting you're a bean counter. I mean it's high serotonin and it's a very different kind of task. And so I pulled her aside because I didn't want to embarrass her in front of her colleagues. Everything I said, tell me me which is more the real you, the you at work or the you outside of work? And she said h outside of work. You know, which was my questionnaire showed. And she said it's work is very tiring and it's because she's having to fit herself in to a role that she doesn't naturally play.

But did she like it or was she like, oh, thank you, I haven't wanted to be.

I didn't.

But it's interesting to look at that.

Yeah.

To people to to yeah. Kidding yourself and rock places that to kind of go towards where your natural.

Your skills are that that would be the leaders of the company to try and put people where they will do their best and people will do their best. And now for example with innovation, I mean you are going to think outside the box and come up with a new idea, a better mousetrap. That's what you're going to do. But you want a nice high serotonin person to create the process, innovate the new process for how it's done. That's going to be make you too impatient.

Right.

You're going to want a high tech guy to build this, build the whatever.

Testosterone, the tea, the.

Yeah. And then you're going to want a high estrogen which is also you who to sell it to explain it to advertise it to etc etc. So just getting people in the right place is very valuable.

I'm so glad businesses are picking this up and couple and people dating. I mean you know people have like what about people have like Myers Briggs and stuff on their personality. Everyone takes it, not everyone gets it.

Well, one of the things that's very hard to remember, I am itp. You know, it's very difficult to remember. It's much easier to remember.

Explorer builder, it's really smart.

Director, negotiator.

So that's, it's hard to remember. But also it puts you in buckets. And the bottom line is you can act out of character. I can do serotonin. I mean I pay my bills every month. I do get my schedule under control, I, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't feel like doing it right ever. And I mean what takes my boyfriend two seconds to go onto the Internet to buy an airplane ticket? I'll wait days before I make the call.

Yeah, days. Someone's to come sit next to me on my couch, my sister. I'm like, okay, we're doing it now, we're doing it now.

I know, it's awesome.

Yeah, that's just who I am. I'm not gonna change it.

No.

Feel so much better.

Yeah.

Just embracing it.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's so funny. And then dating and then realizing what's important to you and then finding people who can kind of come fulfill that.

Exactly. I mean I had one man that I've hung around with for years. I mean we're just friends. I've probably known him for 50 years. We have gone to the same restaurant for 15 years and he always wants to go. He's just High serotonin guy. And I thought to myself over these past years, you know, he would never be a lover. I mean, he's barely been to Europe, you know, I mean, he just likes to stay home, he likes to steady and that's biology.

Truly. It's not anything about your parents raised.

You, they, you know, it's so interesting, when my book on this came out, why him? Why her? My editor for the book called me up. He had just read the first draft. He said, you know, Helen, I finally understand my son. Yeah. And my editor was very high explorer, dopamine, risk taking, novelty seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic. But his son was the high serotonin. He wanted to stay home. And he was a cautious kid. He didn't want to go out on all these adventures that his father wanted to go on. And he said, I love my son, but I never understood him until now.

You just get it that way. Who knows if it's because of the way he raised him or if it's because.

Oh, it's because it's. Oh, I think he's a high serotonin kid.

Yeah.

Just how it's biology.

I mean, I've got sense. You look, measure their brain. You measure their, their brains, right?

But yes, I did. And that's why this is my questionnaire is so unusual. I got all the data from looking at the brain literature to make the questionnaire. But then I put two groups of people who had taken the questionnaire into the brain scanner to prove that what I was measuring with my questionnaire questionnaire actually corresponded with what was in the brain. So if I were to put you into my machine first, I'd give you the questionnaire. You score very high on my dopamine scale, the Explorer. And then when I looked at your brain, I'd see a long, a lot of activity in the whole dopamine pathway. I would also see activity in the brain region for empathy because that's estrogen and with verbal skills, because that's estrogen. So I would be able to see your brain and see. Yes, that's why it's different from the Myers Briggs, from all the Myers Briggs actually is quite right in some ways, but they don't know it. For example, I don't know how much you know about the Myers Briggs.

A little bit. Yeah.

Well, when they're measuring the degree to which you are feeling versus thinking, what they're really measuring, they don't know it, but they're really measuring the traits of the testosterone versus estrogen system. And when they're the perceiving versus judgment P versus J. They're really measuring the traits of the dopamine versus the serotonin system. Once again, they don't know it, but.

That'S what they're doing, like simplified it that.

It sounds like what I did is I got the biology to it, but then they put you in a bucket. You're either perceiving or judging. They got one thing wrong. And in fact everybody's gotten one thing wrong. I think I've never written about this, but I do measure it in my neurocolor question what they get wrong. I don't think anybody in business or in psychology or layman actually understand extroversion versus introversion. I think that Isabel Myers had it right of Myers and Briggs in that it's where you get your energy. Now I'm an introvert. I get my energy from being alone. But if I go into a party, I'm talkative, I'm laughing, I can be the life of the party, etc. Etc. And what they do is they confuse introverts with sort of wallflowers and extroverts with sort of the life of the party. But I think they're two separate scales. The degree to which you get your intro, which is introversion versus extroversion, and a whole second scale which is outgoing versus reserved.

Now I make so much sense.

I am an outgoing introvert.

Yeah, this is a whole new thing, I think that makes so much sense.

And my brain scanning partner is a reserved extrovert. She has to have people around. There are people constantly going in and out of her house. There's dogs, there's cats, there's people, there's. You name it, there's people. But she's reserved around people.

That's so interesting. That makes sense. It's too simple. Simple to say because I love being alone, but I'm an extrovert. But yeah, I need, I need my alone time because around people all the time, but I get energy from people, I think.

Yeah, And Myers Briggs have that wrong. And I think the other thing that they've got wrong is putting you in a bucket. Because we're all a combination of all of them. It's a matter of degree. Now my boyfriend is particularly high on the dopamine and the testosterone skills, but he's got some serotonin in him. Myers Briggs would not pick that up.

Oh, okay.

And that serotonin has been valuable. I mean, he, he makes the plans. He actually likes it. I keep on apologizing. Oh, I'm So sorry. I never get us the hotel room. I never.

He likes it, though. He needs to know that it's happening, that you have a place to go. Maybe he's looking at. I mean, yeah, my mom has something of a very similar. Like, he loves the planning and doing it, so he appreciates it. I want to talk to you about rejection.

Yeah.

Because you talk about painful, the most painful. You say it's the most painful experience a human can endure, and I agree. Can we talk about that a little bit? The phases of rejection and what happens in romantic love and getting rejected.

So after I put my first group of people into the brain scanner who are happily in love, and that got a lot of press, and I said to my, you know, Helen, that's really not very important. What's really important is to find out what happens when you've been rejected in love. I mean, that's when people murder or commit suicide or slip into clinical depression or stalk. I mean, if I'm going to make any contribution on this planet, it's going to be among people who are rejected in love. So we put 15 people into the scanner, and we found activity in a lot of brain regions. Among them, three brain regions linked with craving. The basic brain region linked with addiction. It's an addiction.

Yeah. You become addicted to the obsessed. Right.

And certainly also the brain region linked with feelings of intense romantic love. I mean, you don't stop loving somebody because they dumped you. In fact, you can love them more.

Right, right.

And a brain region region linked with feelings of deep attachment, of course. And a brain region linked with physical pain. Not only the anxiety that goes along with physical pain, but a brain region that also becomes active. When you have tooth pain, but you go to the dentist, the tooth pain's gone. A week later, you've forgotten it. You don't forget somebody a week after they've dumped you. It can go on for months or years. So basically, this. Yeah, this I know. You know, when I was writing my book on that, why We Love, I thought to myself, why do we go through this? I mean, why aren't we just. Why isn't it easier to break up? I mean, everybody gets dumb. And I thought to myself, well, you know, look at what you're losing. I mean, you're not only losing your daily routines, your daily habits, somebody to make love to and laugh with, but you could be losing the. Your children or the dog or the house and economic problems and, you know, where do you go at Christmas or Hanukkah or wherever? And I Mean, you know, I mean, you, you lose a great deal.

And company.

Yeah, you absolutely. You can lose friends, you can lose neighbors, you can lose a lot. But what you're really losing is a reproductive partner. You've lost your opportunity to send your DNA on with this individual. And if you've already had children with the person, you're losing a parent, Right.

What if you don't want children? What if you're older and you still hurts?

It always hurts. It always hurts. I mean, you know, it always, always hurts. It always is so painful and that. But it is a process. I mean, psychiatrists say this is not my work. Psychiatrists say that, you know, the first thing is the protest stage. You just try to win the person back. You know, you can try to seduce, you can try insult them. You walk in and say, I'll never see you again. You have a whole big drama. You walk out, 10 minutes later you're back to do it again.

Right?

It's an obsession. And you're trying to win the person, but back. You can seduce, you can try and make him jealous. You can.

Do a lot of things. And then after a while, you just flat out give up. And that's the second stage. You move from protest to resignation. And then you sort of slump into. Onto the bed and you just lie there and you cry or you drink too much, you drive too fast, you hole up and watch tv, and after a while that begins to fade and you move into recovery. So it really is a whole pattern. And. But, you know, men and women do it somewhat differently. Women try to negotiate a great deal, whereas men will try to make a woman jealous or go out and get another relationship almost immediately to try to make the person jealous. So they'll do it somewhat differently. But is it true, you think that.

Men do it like that, but then they feel it later or they just kind of.

I don't know if that's true, that men. Well, men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. So the bottom line is they're feeling it.

They're feeling it.

Yeah.

But they're like just numbing it by going out and dating someone else right away. They're probably men and women do it.

I saw just as much sorrow in the men that I put into the brain scanner as the women. They don't talk about as much. Women talk about it too much.

I agree.

And what they're doing then is retraumatizing. I mean, it's something you do want to talk about. It To a point. But after a while you need to stop talking about it because every time you raise the issue again with friends, family, you're re traumatizing yourself, you're reliving it at some point. And that happened to me once with this guy. I mean, it was ridiculous. He was constantly leaving with me, leaving me. And finally, you know, I said to my girlfriends, I, I'm not going to talk about it anymore because I'm just retraumatizing myself. Right.

It's so helpful. Right. And then you heal time. Time does heal all wounds. It is true.

But would you think we've been able to prove that actually these rejected people, the longer you get away from the moment of initial rejection projection, the less activity there is in a brain region linked with feelings of attachment. So we've been able to prove that in the brain, time does heal. But if women talk about it too much, men often don't talk about it enough.

Right, right.

So they don't process it. And there was this one guy, you've got to sort of build a story that you can then get rid of. And there was this one guy that left me. I could not figure out why he left. I could not figure it out. And I finally said to myself, and I was never gonna know because he was gone. So I thought, I finally said to myself, helen, make it up. Just make up your story. Make up the story of why you left, what went wrong, what you did. Make it up. And so that you can, once you get a story, you can throw the story out, you can bury the story that worked.

You just think about you like this.

To this day, I don't know why I left, but I got my story.

You never know either. Like even. Because that's the thing about the actress.

Tell me. Right. If I, you know, kind of thing.

Yeah, I mean, but I already make.

It up, you know.

Yeah, but we make up so many stories in our head about things too. Like even on the apps and we get more rejected or we had a great date and they ghosted.

Yeah.

You're never gonna know anyway. And if you spend an hour, it's two hours with someone and you've spent 10 days obsessing about it doesn't matter, make a point, Just move on. You gotta move on.

You gotta move on.

It makes sense though, why it's so hard.

You know, make it up. Make it. I mean, that's what I would do. I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist or, you know, therapist like you. I. But I, but you know, if, if I was on the Internet and I had a really wonderful date with somebody or two wonderful dates with somebody, and geez, I thought it was great. And then they said to me, well, I'll call you next week. And then they never do. I would think. I mean, if you really had no idea. I don't know. I mean, just off the top of my head, I guess I would say, well, maybe his girlfriend came back.

Maybe.

Maybe it doesn't have to do with me.

Doesn't have to do with you. I tell people all the time, first of all, you'll never know. But just assume it has nothing to do with you. How could it, after one date, two dates anyway. Or if it does.

Doesn't have to.

Never know.

Yeah, never know.

It's healthier, though, not to beat yourself up and go to the negative.

Exactly.

Which is what we're wired to do, right?

Exactly. People would say, well, love is dead. You can't kill love. It's a brain system. It evolved over 4 million years ago. It's going to be with us as long as we survive as a species 4 million years from now. It's like the fear system or the hope system. It's a basic brain system we will always love.

Well, I love that you've made your life work out of studying love. It's been so helpful for so many people, including myself.

Well, thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

Me too.

Thank you, Dr. Helen Fish. Sure. For being here. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to this show. I hope you enjoyed my interview and enjoyed the podcast. Thank you everybody for listening and for supporting the show. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, producer Jamie and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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