Sharing Secrets with Sarah Brokaw

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm joined by Sarah Brokaw, host of the podcast Shared Secrets. We're talking couple dynamics, relationship ups and downs, and of course, answering your questions. Topics include how therapy actually works with couples to set the foundation for healthy relationships, moving past a cheating incident, the real impact technology and social media is having on all of our relationships, and the right way to talk about what's not working sexually with your partner. All this and more. Thanks for listening. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they called them in a bygone day.

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I'm really excited to welcome my guest, Sarah Brokaw. She's a therapist, author, and host of the podcast Shared Secrets. Hi, Sarah.

Hey, Emily.

Hi, this is so fun.

It's so much fun.

I'm glad you're here in my office.

Mm-hmm.

And in my office. And I was excited to be a guest on your podcast. A few weeks ago, which everyone can check out, Shared Secrets. So you are a therapist.

Yes.

We're gonna get into your podcast in a second, but tell me about how'd you get into therapy? Why therapy?

I'll tell you, it started off when I was 10 years old and I had a piano teacher named Colleen. And every week she would come in on a Wednesday afternoon and say, okay, did you practice? And I'd say, no, I didn't practice, but let's just chit-chat. I wanna have a conversation with you. So she would roll her eyes and I'd say, Colleen, do you have a boyfriend? She goes, I do have a boyfriend. I said, what does he do? Well, he's an analyst. I said, what is an analyst? And she said, analysts, he, what he does is he analyzes people's dreams. I'm like, oh, that's fascinating. So the lesson ends. I didn't learn any more piano. I didn't practice for the week, but I did write out my dream. So she comes back a week later. I'm only 10, mind you. She comes back a week later and she goes, did you practice the piano? And I said, I didn't, but I wrote out the dream that I want your boyfriend to analyze.

Love it.

So at the end of the piano lesson, my mom comes in. And she goes, is Sarah making any progress? And she's like, she'll never be a pianist, but most likely she will be a psychoanalyst or psychotherapist. Wow.

At 10?

At 10.

That's amazing. And so did it click with you then, really, too?

Oh, yeah.

So you've always just been fascinated?

Fascinated with the people's minds and how people relate to each other. And, and I always say on a cellular level, we're really all the same.

Right. And that's really what a lot of your work has been about. Yes. Kind of like bridging the gap so we're not all living alone in isolation and sharing our secrets, sharing our stories. And so you see a lot of couples, individuals, you see everything, right? But I'm fascinated by your work with couples because you've been over 10 years.

You've been over 10 years. I've been working, yes, with couples. It started off with specialized training at the Ackerman Institute in New York. Then I did more training with the Gottman Institute.

I love that you did Gottman. I have so many questions. Yeah. I mean, you've had extensive training with, with trauma. And so, but let's talk about, first of all, I love the Gottman training. Is there a way that you could— I talk about it on the show sometimes, but—

How do I describe it in a nutshell?

Yeah, I just feel like it's some of the most fascinating work and studies I've seen around.

Well, the reason why— Well, for me—

John Gottman is what we're talking about.

Brilliant.

Brilliant.

Right. But he also has his wife, Julie Gottman, who's the clinical psychologist. So she's more the clinical part of the Gottman Institute. John is the scientist. And for me, I'm such an evidence-based person. I want to have evidence as to how these schools of thought really work, right? Before I can just employ them with the clients that I work with. And so I read all the books, you know, The Marriage Clinic and like The Seven Principles of a Happy Marriage. And then I decided to take some of the classes that he was teaching online. And I thought, okay, this is so up my alley. So I did level 1, level 2, and then I did level 3, which is more intensive learning from John and his wife, Julie. And everything that they had lectured made absolute sense. And then we would practice whatever they were teaching us, and I thought, well, this makes sense. But also what I thought was really fascinating is that they have this very labor-intensive questionnaire to really understand the nuances in a person's marriage. And it's things that you can't get over months or years of working with the couple, but this is just the fastest, most effective way in getting information that I don't think there's other institutes or therapists who are doing.

I've never heard anything that, that was that effective. But you're saying that these forms, couples fill them out?

Yes.

So that's the therapist fills it out? The couples fill it out?

The couples fill it out. So all I have to do is just go online and send the questionnaire to my couple, and then each partner will fill out the questionnaire separately, and it will say— and then I'll get the results back and it'll say These are the strengths. These are the weaknesses. These are possible ideas how you work, but you need to be a professional. You can't just do it.

I can't just do it with my friends. You guys aren't doing well.

Exactly.

You need to analyze the data and stuff.

Exactly.

I love that a lot of it turns out strengths, weaknesses. I mean, the thing I'm thinking of is their headlines, which is basically that they can predict the predictors of divorce.

Yes. I think that it's something that I recommend to all my clients where if they're ready to graduate from the therapy in my office and they say, well, if we need more resources, I always have them go to the Gottman website. There's all these workshops for couples. There's weekend retreats.

They do weekend retreats. Are huge for couples.

Yes.

Like, you know, I always say like vacation sex, take a vacation and take a weekend retreat once a year. It will change your relationship.

Exactly.

Speaking of changing people's relationships, in your work with couples, have you noticed any trends lately or anything that's been happening, or has it kind of always been the same? And if so, what are the top issues that come up?

Number one, I know a big one, which is there's been a sea change with how women perceive themselves in marriages or in relationships. I think, let's just say it's 15 years ago or 10, even 10 years ago, I think that a lot of women, when I was just starting to practice, I think that a lot of women historically really felt like they didn't have any freedom. There was no platform for them to explore who they were as women. I think that there were still the idea that they had to reach certain milestones in order to become the ideal woman. And that was you graduate from college, that is, if you're lucky, you're supposed to get married, you're supposed to have kids, then you're supposed to find a job, or you kind of reverse that. But you had to make sure to reach the certain milestones. Right now, I think what has happened is that women have been given a lot more freedom. And I don't know what we say, thanks to Sheryl Sandberg, or we say thanks to Meryl Streep, or we say thanks to Hillary Clinton, whomever those women are out, you know, who are giving us the permission to find our freedom, has emboldened a lot of women who are— who have been in relationships. So here they are, they've been given the platform for freedom. The poor men have not been given the lessons that we've been given a long time ago of to find who they are as people, and they don't have the vocabulary, right? And they're stuck. And then what I hear a lot from men is that it's not resentment, but it is resentment, but they don't want to admit it. But the resentment is my wife, my girlfriend, my partner has been given all the freedom to explore who she wants to be. If she wants to be a mom, she can choose to be a mom or not be a mom. Does she want to go to work? She can choose. What career path? She has an option. And then I hear from men, I'm not given that option. My option is usually become a provider, and to be an effective provider, you have to have a high-paying job. And if you don't have the high-paying job, then you really are not an effective provider. Now, unfortunately, they can't really express those emotions because no one's given them the vocabulary. So that's where they come in, and that's the trend I have noticed.

That they're feeling— and I would say, is that sort of like what we used to call, and maybe we still do, the midlife crisis, maybe, with some men that they're thinking—

midlife crisis—

just when men start realizing that there's something more and they can't put their finger on it. Like, they have everything they want, but yet there's sort of this yearning. And I believe it's for men who want to be vulnerable, want to have intimacy, want to understand what their issues are, but they've never been given a platform or a place to.

I think it's happening now at all ages.

Yep.

Yeah, I don't think it's just— I don't think it's just happening in your 40s or your 50s.

That men even younger, they're like, okay, emotions and vulnerabilities are okay.

I think younger men are given the permission to learn the vocabulary, whereas men in my age group and older are just trying to learn.

Yeah, exactly. Dating these men, right? They're just like learning how to even— and we say vocabulary, we're talking about emotions and feelings and letting the guard down and searching and having— just knowing how to communicate.

Even saying the word processing, right?

Let me process this for a minute.

And they're looking at me like, what the hell is process? What does that mean? So then what I'll do is I have to think, okay, if he's working if he's working somewhere, I'll use words like, "What's your exit strategy?" Business-oriented terminology. That's the way in which they can start to understand and digest. I'm not dumbing it down.

No, I get it. We hear things very differently as men and women, and that's a big part of it. What do you see in your practice about technology right now? Is it really as big of an impact on couples, you think, and social media? And are you hearing this? Tell me what you're hearing. Well, I think it's not just recently.

I think that's also been happening for a few years, which is that it's very tempting to have— and I hear a lot too, because it's denial, which is, you know, there will be one partner who will establish a wonderful relationship with a colleague at work, whether it's the man or a woman, or a woman and a woman, or man and man. And they will justify and say, well, we had to be in contact with each other via text because we had to both work on this document. We had to get it emailed to one another. Do you really need to do it at 10 o'clock at night?

Right.

But somehow using that phone or using the computer— and so I'm using email, I'm texting— it looks like it's more innocent, it's more businesslike. And it's kind of, to me, I'm like, yeah, but it's still an emotional affair, right?

It's like those micro-cheating or emotional affairs, right?

It's emotional affair, but, but it's more insidious because your emotional affair historically could happen on the phone, right, on the landline, or you're meeting up with a person, which makes it— creates a lot more work and a lot more lying, a lot more creativity in terms of why you have to meet up with that person, right? Having the phone and having email makes it seem like it's totally innocent.

It's legit. No one's going to see this. I'm sending this. I'm on my app. It doesn't— I mean, it's not really happening. Now, what about— yeah, I know. And I, I just feel like there's going to be a, a little bit of a backlash against technology, or just people are going to start putting rules in place for themselves too, to restrict the time and like charge the phone outside the bedroom and the TV in the bedroom and all those things, which I think are very important.

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And what about sex and couples?

Oh, man.

Common themes?

Porn. Okay, so this is interesting because you mentioned porn in our podcast. And well, I also struggle with porn.

Personally watching porn?

I do. And I do as a therapist as well, because I worked with— I've work with Equality Now as a volunteer, and I've met a lot of former victims of sex trafficking, and they've been in porn. So for me, I have this very different view than maybe someone who wants to watch it just to kind of get themselves titillated, to get into the mood. I look at it as these are poor, you know, subjected women out there who are struggling in surviving, right?

A lot of the bar, right? Unless it's like, you know, consensual porn or porn, right?

But is there such a thing?

Right.

Is there such a thing as consensual porn?

I mean, there is. Yes, there is. There's like, you know, we're calling it female-friendly porn or ethical porn. And there is porn that's a lot of it's made for women by women, but also just that they kind of sign off on all of these like bottom line issues. Yeah, there was consent, safe environment. But what about your struggle with it? Is that that you're more like watching it and you're like, and I'm thinking about the women who I've met who have been victims of sex trafficking. Right.

So I'm thinking if I'm going to watch that, I'm thinking about, you know, my friend Autumn, who's been a victim of sex trafficking for over 15 years. Okay, so that's where I kind of—

no, I get it, right?

But if a couple says, I— we need it to feel titillated, and if they're both on the same page about it, great.

So sexually though, mismatched libidos, we get a lot of that.

Oh man, this is something that's also come up a lot with the couples coming into my practice. If I'm working, it's really— it's it's couples from like 45 and over. Women are very comfortable in talking about going through perimenopause at 45 and over and talking about vaginal dryness and talking about how, you know, they don't have as much of a sex drive as they used to, but they're willing to work on it. Right. They're going to get the estrogen cream. They're going to do— have sex more often just to keep themselves lubricated. Men will not talk about erectile dysfunction.

No, they will not talk about their penises at all. No, I know they will talk to the doctor about it.

Yes, and so it's one of the first things I bring up with them. I said, your partner, female partner, wife, girlfriend, partner, is bringing this up, and it's something that she could be ashamed about, but she's choosing not to be ashamed about it. Men, on the other hand, I'm like, what is causing you to not want to— yes, there's already, I think, the instinct to be protective and be sure, right? But if you think also about advertising, like, if you look through magazines I'm just thinking of Good Housekeeping or Cosmopolitan magazine. There are these wonderful ads for perimenopause or if you're having hurtful sex, but you see two very attractive women in their late 40s or early 50s having a conversation about using a certain supplement or product to make your sex better. But if you see ads for erectile dysfunction, you're seeing an 80-year-old man taking Viagra.

I'm not that guy. Why don't they have the two guys at the bar going, "Hey, buddy, last night, I couldn't get it up." "Well, here, this is what you could do." That's what I want. I do feel like this is the time where men are realizing that there's more places for them to go and have that dialogue, and it's okay to be open and emotional. And hopefully, I know that you're helping them.

I'm hoping. I think that the men who've come into my practice have felt comfortable enough with me to have this conversation.

Well, it sounds like it. And so, people feel very comfortable talking to you as I did on your podcast. I loved it.

So, let's talk about shared Secrets, your podcast, and how I came up with it.

Yes, I want to hear all about that. You've interviewed so many fascinating people, so everyone has to check it out. I know it's, it's very well done, well produced, and just your greatness.

Well, I just love it so much. And it, it, it all stemmed from, I think, around 3 years ago when I was really burnt out with therapy, and I had to figure out why am I so burnt out? Why am I so burnt out? Is it compassion fatigue? And it's not. It wasn't compassion fatigue. It was about the tremendous amount of unnecessary shame that people were bringing into my office about the secrets that they're holding on to. They felt like they didn't need to be secrets. And then there was a lot of—

because you're only as sick as your secrets, right?

Right.

No, but it's so—

that's, that's part of it, right? And then I also noticed that because of the introduction of social media, which I do appreciate— use Facebook, I use Instagram, um, I did also notice that people are so good at presenting personas, but it's only personas. It's a brand. Is it really your authentic self?

Right. You mean— right, exactly. Everyone has the perfect life on Facebook.

And we all do it at some point or another. I don't care who you are. We all do it at some point to present ourselves in a certain way that really may not be who we are feeling at that moment. So with that, I thought, what would happen if I just took an opportunity to interview people who I've met at parties, at dinner parties, you know, such as yourself.

Right. I know. We don't remember. We had fun together.

Yes.

At a party somewhere years ago. Right.

Or, you know, we— I find, you know, people who I've met on Facebook or people I've known for years where they shared a secret. I'm like, are you willing to get on the podcast with me and talk about your secret? And they're like, yes, because it gave me so much freedom.

Well, right. It gave you freedom, right? Because you're opening up for that.

And they're opening up to me.

Right. Right. And it's so cathartic for them, too. You realize once you take the power away by, like, sharing it.

Exactly. And of course, you know, with the shared secrets, I also want to incorporate levity. So there's some podcasts that are not about the deep, dark secret that's being revealed. Like, I interview— Yeah.

Tell me about some of your favorite ones or some secrets that impacted you. Both of those.

Oh, God. There's a couple of them that really impact me. Well, okay, so let's just start off with this woman who's a good friend of mine named Lauren. And she talks about the secret to the taller, thinner, Skinny or taller, thinner, younger you, and talks about the foam roller, right? That to me was more just fun, but it's not a secret secret, right? Right. Using the foam roller, like, yeah, and she talks about it and she talks about the fascia, all that, right? That's great, right? But it's not psychologically oriented, right, at all.

No, I didn't feel like— I listened to a lot of your podcasts. Yeah, I felt like they were secrets, but the way you do, the way you, you know, because I didn't want to make it—

I didn't want to exploit them and I didn't want to make it a therapy session. I want to make it more of a dialogue, right?

That was my intention.

Um, one I have one that was actually also very powerful, but he can't give his last name. But it's also because I think it's part of the AA code of ethics. He was more than willing to. He's like, "I just can't do it." He's a good friend of mine. We knew each other in Japan in our 20s. We knew each other in our 30s. And then I hadn't seen him. He kind of disappeared. And he's a guy who went to USC. Did he go to USC? He went to USC. He was at the president of his fraternity, dynamic, erudite, just a dynamo. He got hooked on crystal meth at 43.

Wow.

And just fell off the face of the earth. And you would never ever imagine. Wow. Right. So that's one that really greatly impacted me when he told his story because he's also so articulate. Right. Another one that I think was really impactful was a woman who was formerly a man, transgender, named Natalie Egan, who was a tech exec at LinkedIn, married formerly his college sweetheart at Cornell, had 3 kids, but was profoundly depressed and started to come to terms with her, now her sexual identity after seeing the Caitlyn Jenner interview. She had no idea that she was transgender. She just thought she was just sick, a sick, sick human being. And so talking to her family about it and then obviously doing more research on it, She started the transition, told at that point his wife, and they separated. There's been a lot of pain, a lot of hurt, but also a lot of growth. And so Natalie tells her story, and so many people have reached out to me and said, "That is me," right? "That is me," or, "I would never have imagined that there's a person who happens to be kind of an alpha male at LinkedIn," right?

Who's making the transition. You have a picture in your mind, but Bruce Jenner, if you think Bruce Jenner was the all-star athlete, right? Like, like on my Cheerios box as a kid. Like, he was everything.

Exactly.

And right. So let's talk about sharing secrets. So let's go back to that because people think, oh yeah, I can never— yeah, sharing secrets is a good concept, but I can't tell anyone my secret. You know, like, let's talk about just more about the theory behind or the rationale behind.

I mean, like, when people say like everyone has a secret, right? But then you're like, but I'm not gonna tell my secret.

Right, exactly. I'm like, why? What is the power? What have you seen kind of catharsis about sharing a secret?

Because I think The way that I look at it was— so you know I wrote this book called Fortitude.

Yeah, I want to talk about that too.

Okay. And when people say, well, how do you go from writing a book— what's the connection between Fortitude and shared secrets? And I say, you can't find your fortitude unless you come to terms with the secrets, because the secret is what prevents you from growth.

Let's talk about some of those common secrets though that people you think would— for example, so in your book Fortitude, you were turning 40. Yeah. And you were like, I'm having dread. Facing that birthday cake and thinking, like, I want to just talk to women and see how they're facing it.

Right. So what are some of the common secrets? I think one was about wanting to have kids. That they really want to have kids, but their secret was the fear of doing it on their own or not knowing if they'll ever find a partner or are they fertile.

Right.

And it's something that so many women have not been able to have had the courage to say out loud. How do I go down this path? And so, as I call it, research is me-search. I was going through the same exact— my secret, right, was also that I ended up not going to my 20-year reunion because I wasn't married and I didn't have kids and I did not want to show up empty-handed.

So my secret was the embarrassment, the shame you have around that you didn't live.

Exactly.

Kicking off this thing that we said women have to meet these milestones.

So then that's when, at that moment, I call it a sparkling moment. At that moment I said, okay, here I am, you know, talking to all these clients and all these other women out there saying, you know, find a sense of courage, face life with a sense of confidence and curiosity rather than fear and regret. And I was doing exactly opposite. So, wow. At that moment, it was an aha moment, even though I don't believe in aha moments. I just kind of believe in moments. And I just said, okay, I had to really have a good dialogue with myself. I said, what is my fear? My fear is about, will I never have a child? And then how do I take the word fear out, replace it with curiosity? Huh, how can I have a child? So, and that was— And you did it.

I did it. Do you talk, I mean, how much do you talk about your experience with this?

All the time.

Okay, so tell me about, so you went through the process of—

It's a beautiful, beautiful journey that I went on. It started off at, you know, Broken up with the boyfriend I moved out to LA with, who just turned out to be an absolute disaster.

But he got you here.

He got me here. Exactly. Exactly. And I was in the midst of writing the book. And then I thought, my God, I just turned 40. And here I am writing this book for people to, you know, women to feel empowered. But why am I not really focusing on what I need to focus on? So it was, let me see, man, I was like mid, I think it was like in the middle of my 40th the year that I, you know, went to California Cryobank, and I bought some vials of sperm. And then that was fine. And then one of my friends said, I want you to come over to my husband's house because we're celebrating his birthday. So I'm like, okay, I'll go. I went begrudgingly. I walked in and they said, we want you to meet this guy. And in walks this beautiful Eurasian man, okay, you know, he's Chinese, and his name was Adrian. I'm like, oh dear God, he's beautiful. We ended up talking. We had this intense, intense connection with each other. And I gave him my phone number thinking that he was gonna call me. And I'm like, God, he didn't call me. So I ended up calling him a few days later, and we kept hanging out and hanging out and hanging out. And we were— I— we were coming up with an idea for a Bravo TV show, and he came over. But I also knew I had such a crush on him. So one of my friends said, you know, I think you just need to make the move. I think that you can talk about your TV show and talk about your treatment, but really what you want to do is seduce him, like, right?

Kiss him.

So, exactly. So I said, okay. So I called him. I said, why don't you come over in 20 minutes and we'll talk about our treatment? He's like, great. So I got myself in the black dress. I got a bottle of wine for liquid courage. I lit the whole house up in candles. He comes into the house. We're sitting down chit-chatting, and then something comes up about— I don't know what it was about— like, what do we tell the producers about We're not a couple, we're just friends. But what are you going to say about your relationships? Trying to hint to get an idea where his status was. And he goes, well, I'm glad that you're asking. Um, I'm bi. And I just kind of stood back. I'm like, wait, what? I'm like, you're bi? And then I said, do you have a boyfriend or are you bi? And I have a boyfriend. I said, and then my mom, like, well, then you're gay, right? Then I started to laugh. He goes, why are you laughing? And I said, I'm laughing because I got dressed up in this black dress, I lit the house up with candles, I was ready to give you a smooch, not happening. So from that moment on, we just became that much closer. On my 41st birthday is when I proposed to him and asked for his sperm.

Wow. Okay.

And so it's 41st, now I'm almost 48. And so it took us a good year, we did IVF, and now we have a beautiful kid. Now initially, I'm just telling the listener out there, initially what you have to do to go— when we made that decision, it's a lot more, um, difficult than it used to be, right? But now it's a lot easier because of the difficult process we have to go through. You had to—

I, in the last 8, 5 years, right?

And so I, as the mother-to-be, had to hire a lawyer for myself and hire a lawyer for him. That's the first step. The second step is that you have to go to a fertility psychologist to see if I'm deemed as— if you're using a direct donor, right? If you're using an unknown donor, this doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. Then the psychologist says, well, what if you're in this situation? What if he's in this situation? How are you going to handle it? She, at the time, could determine whether I was psychologically sound, if he was psychologically sound. Obviously, she said you both fine.

Thank God.

Right. Then the lawyers come in, and this is where it got litigious. So my lawyer is saying, well, you don't want to have this man be part of your life. He is the direct donor. He's the donor. You don't want him to come in.

And he's your friend too. So that's a very—

it got very complicated. And I think that his lawyer said, well, all of your rights are going to be taken away here, so do you really want to sign up for this? So we both started getting really tense with each other, and it took him a good year for him to sign that contract. So there I am waiting, I'm looking at my eggs disappear from here every month, and then finally, um, it was— he's— I said, what do you think you need? Adrian's his name. I said, what do you need in order to feel convinced that this is the right choice? Because I need to talk to your dad. And I think he felt that he needed to talk to my dad because I know his dad passed away. He didn't want to get any opinions from women. He needed to hear from a man.

He needs a man. Yeah.

So my dad said, get on it.

Right.

We're fine. You're fine. Let's make this happen.

And now he's an active part of your— Yes.

And that was part of the thing, though, that he was not going to be part of it. But then my son at 15 months started to call him Daddy. Yeah.

Right. That's beautiful.

But this, it's an anomaly because everyone says, wow, how do I get that set up?

Right. But I guess the message is not that set up, just that if women are listening to this and they're feeling it, like, there's, you know, it's okay. Also, if you, if you don't want kids, like, I've never, I've never had that urge to have kids. It was never a thing. And I never had the— I never even had the felt that it was. And I felt okay with that. I'm like, I obviously, I love kids. I always give it like, I love kids. Like, people think I don't love kids. Yeah. I mean, no, but it just was never a choice of mine. Never felt that urge. But I think a lot of women do.

And, uh, and regardless of what you feel, you're fine.

You're "Yeah, that's exactly it." Well, that's the other thing. This is a different time too, like letting people know it's okay if you don't want to. I think that women for so long felt like, "Yeah, we have to hit all these milestones and then I'll be happy and complete as a human," which is not true. And the book also talks about, like you do a lot about in Fortitude, which people can get from—

Amazon.

Amazon, everywhere, about destigmatizing aging. So what did you learn about women and their attitudes towards aging?

The exemplars of Fortitude or women who were not exemplars and trying to find them?

Well, I guess kind of like maybe what what you found to be this common struggle and what you were hoping to overcome.

I think that the exemplars of fortitude, the way that I look at it, in order to really have a sense of fortitude, that to me is you harness these 5 core values. And that is having a sense of grace, connectedness, accomplishment, adventure, and spirituality. Right?

With yourself.

With yourself. But what I always say to the person when they say, "Well, that's easy." I'm like, "Yeah, but—" the minute you hear someone else's voice when you're defining that value, that's not your value, right?

Well, that's the thing. We got to get rid of these voices in our head and our parents from society. Exactly.

So how do you do that? How do you really spend the time to define those values? And once you're able to do that, then the aging part won't really matter. It won't matter.

You know that you're living your purpose and it's more defined. Exactly. Exactly. And it got you out of your— and now you're slumping. Now you're doing the podcast. You said the fortitude led to the podcast.

The fortitude led to the podcast. But when people say, well, how is there— what's the connection? I say, well, my theory is that you cannot harness those 5 core values and define those values if you're holding on to the secret, because you're not being true. You're not being entirely true to yourself.

Okay, that's true. Are there common— besides the child, I'm just wondering if there's any common secrets that you found that women were holding? Like, besides the kids thing, was there anything else? Secrets.

Not being happy in their marriage. Right. Really not being happy in their marriage.

And never actually being able to say, like, it's okay and I could do something about it.

Yes. And really, really being stuck there. And, and, and partly it is about aging. I think a lot of women who I've talked to have gotten married way too young. And, and it doesn't mean that all women who've gotten married in their 20s did it too young, but I I think that there are a number of women who were not probably emotionally evolved. How could you be in your 20s?

What's your take on this? About the— like, if you had to say about the right time to get married for people? I know people get angry. I say don't get married in your 20s, and I'm gonna get angry. Don't email me.

No, no, no, it's not that. I— the way that I look at it is, I think marriage to me— I mean, I'm not married, right? And maybe there's a reason why I'm not married. Right here. Yeah, but I think that I look at my parents who got married at 21, 22. Right. And so I asked them, I'm like, what is the secret? And they say marriage, in effect, is with a stranger about whom you have a magnificent hunch. And they just so happen to get lucky.

A magnificent— that's a beautiful quote, right? So they— and they're still together, 54 years. See, then how do you ever live up to that?

Right, right. So I look at it as it is— it's a sacred contract that you have with someone else, and it's also a gamble. You may outgrow the other person. You may— and I think that's what's also happening with a lot of women now, which is they now have been given the platform to find their freedom. And so then they think, well, if I'm given the platform to find my freedom and I feel emboldened, why am I necessarily with this man, right? And then I think the men feel threatened by that.

Absolutely. And is it— it's true, right, that most women— it's mostly women who leave marriages more than men? I'm not saying that the only ones who want— I don't know the exact statistic. I've heard this, and I feel like in my own sample of life, of friends and people who are divorced, it's typically the woman who's kind of pushing it. Because I feel like a lot of times men might be more complacent with it, or again, they don't have the language around what's wrong in women. I think also they've—

I feel there's been a little bit more latitude given to men that they have extramarital affairs, or I don't know.

What's your take on, um, or what's your take on infidelity?

Yeah, well, I just read Esther Perel's book.

Emily Morse wrote an amazing book. I'm halfway through. Yeah. Which I love.

The State of Affairs. Yeah. I find it fascinating. Yeah. I feel like it's part of the human condition. I do believe that when you're in a marriage, I think that there's a struggle between finding novelty because we're part of the human condition. And then, but also seeking the familiar. And how do you amalgamate those two desires? Right. Exactly. How do you do that?

That's like Made in Captivity. Her book was a lot about that. And then she kind of Expand on that. How do you do that? How do you keep it interesting? That's a conversation. Okay, I'm gonna have you answer some questions with me. I would love that, and I've got some questions for you that I ask every guest. Quick questions. What is your biggest turn-on?

Oh my gosh. Well, I'm dating this guy, and I always kind of tell him, like, well, I always believe that chore play is foreplay, right?

Do something. Empty the dishwasher. Something, right? Clean up.

If you see that I have no gas in my tank, get it built.

Exactly. I like it. Biggest turn-off?

Oh man, I'm so tough though in this area. I don't like neediness. And you know, it's funny, I just think that for me it's not— and that he gets upset because he's like, well, I'm just showing my vulnerability, and aren't I supposed to do that? So I'm like, no, you're not really. You're not supposed to be—

well, not with me.

With everyone else, everyone else be vulnerable, not with me. But so I also think a turn-off for me, and it could be with any man, is about if they drink too much.

I agree, not attractive. Sexiest part of your partner's body? His biceps. And what's the one thing you wish you could tell your current partner or all future partners about your body's needs?

My body's needs? Oh, he meets all those needs. Love it.

He has found the spots.

He has found the spots, and it's because I'm at an age where I am so uninhibited.

Right, you're like, whatever. —It doesn't matter. How is the you different now sexually than it did 20 years ago?

Because I'm almost 48 and I'm thinking when I'm 68, maybe I'll have a great sex life. I don't know, but I know that I might as well just get it all in now.

What am I gonna wait for? Some special night?

Totally. Come on. We know what's gonna happen. Exactly. I like it. And it's his biggest turn-on.

Exactly. That you know what you want, you're asking for it, you're taking control. Because men have a lot of responsibility for guys to have to be in charge of the whole thing. Understand everyone's body. Every woman's different.

Exactly.

Okay, thank you. Okay, so Sarah Brokaw, this was amazing. Thank you for this. I'm going to have you stay on and answer questions. You can find Sarah, this will all be on our show notes, but it's @SarahBrokaw, S-A-R-A-H-B-R-O-K-A-W on Twitter, and that's @SarahAuldBrokaw on Facebook. And your website is sarahbrokaw.com, and this will also all be on Instagram, Sarah Auld Brokaw. Perfect. Got to find her. God Finder. Check out our podcast, Shared Secrets. Okay, I'm going to take a quick break, give a shout out to our sponsors. Thank you everyone for supporting them, and we'll be right back answering your emails. We're on to emails. I'm with Sarah, Sarah Brokaw. Thank you for staying here with me. We're going to help the people. I love hearing from all of you. Thank you for all your amazing emails and messages. You can easily ask ask a question, text ASKEMILY, one word, to 797979, and you can easily ask a question that way or submit a question from the Sex with Emily website via the Ask Emily tab. And as always, include information that helps me help you— your gender, your age, how you listen, and where you live, and all that good stuff. Okay, this is from Rachel. She's 30 from Oakland, California. Hi Emily, I've been in therapy for over a year. I'm working on not driving my worth from sex as I in previous relationships and in unhealthy ways. I've been with my current partner for 1.5 years, and within the first few months we realized we had mismatched libidos. I wanted sex a few times a day, and for him it was more like twice a month. After a few tantrums and emotional reactions to his rejection, my therapist suggested taking the pressure off of him. I've tried to do that, but now when we engage in sexual activity, he starts by giving me some foreplay and then wants me to go down on him. I'm fine with doing that. However, he always ends up orgasming way before he finishes before I do and there's no penetration. When he's done, I'm not ready for our interaction to be over. I feel like I don't know how to communicate this without being pushy or putting more pressure on him. We're starting to talk about moving forward in our relationship, marriage and kids and stuff like that, and I just don't know if this sex life is right for me and if I can live with this for the rest of my life. Can you share what you would do in this situation? Thanks, Rachel. So yeah, Rachel, I feel like it's common in couples to have mismatched libidos and to not have you know, to have challenges sexually. You've been together a year and a half. And my first thing, and I'd love to, I'd love to hear what you think. I think a lot of times we think that we've communicated something to our partner and we actually have, like, you maybe once we said, you know, foreplay would be better, or what are we going to do about this mismatch thing? And let's try. And then they think that's the conversation. But when we're trying to really get through to our partner about something like sex, whether it's shame and trauma or whatever it is, years of built up stuff, it's really hard to get through and make a change. So what would you tell Rachel here?

Well, the thing that I think is also, are they really content in every other area in the relationship?

Right. Is everything else—

is everything else fine? Is sex really the only issue that they're contending with? Right. And also, is she really having a conversation with him? As you point out, like, she may feel like she's communicating with him, But once again, I think what happens a lot is that men get flooded, and then they kind of stonewall. And then he probably feels like, well, I'm not making her happy, so why would I even want to go there, right? And so probably what she does in response is that she probably feels like he's ignoring her, abandoning her. She feels rejected. She feels rejected. And so she'll wait, but she'll keep score. And then she kitchen sinks it. And then she waits until one night where she really is frisky and randy and wants to do something and he just kind of turns away and then she loses it. So, there's probably a pattern there that's kind of been there from the very beginning.

And so, what would you tell couples about the sex talk? I mean, I've talked about this a lot, but I'd love to hear you talk about it.

I would say you sandwich it.

You sandwich it with positive. Compliment sandwich. Right, exactly.

You sandwich it. You just say, this is, you know, why I desire to be with you and this is how you make feel, and you make— and I just, I just want to get more of that. And then the middle part, which is that it's not a criticism, it's more of a complaint, a concern, where you can just say, but I also feel when I am with you that I am asking more from you than you're willing to give, and that just makes me feel crappy. Right. And then with the positive again, which is like, once again, would love to have this conversation with you when you're ready to have this conversation.

"And I really care about you and our relationship and our sex life." And I think it's interesting. That's— yeah, exactly. And I think you might have to have it a few times and then he might have to go away and think about it. But the interesting part about this too is that your first thing was, is everything else so great? And what I'm hearing is Rachel's a woman who's, you know, she's doing her work. She's been in therapy for a year and a half and she's doing some real work on herself. And I wonder if he's doing the work because that can be really hard to be with someone who has not done their work. And that's been kind of my challenge with with men. One of them is that I've always said— one of them is that I really want a guy who's done work. I mean, I've been working on myself forever, forever, right?

Like, but it's not that they don't want to. Where do they begin?

Where do they begin? Go to therapy. But find the right therapist.

But if it's the therapist, that word therapy also scares a lot of men.

It's a threat. So what do we call it now? What can we call it? Like, go to the— maybe we need to reframe it for men. A specialist. Or even an analyst sounds better.

Like you're telling me— because an analyst is like going down the rabbit hole.

No, but it sounds less threatening. It sounds more business-like.

If you're business-like, you go to the analyst, right? You go to the specialized— the specialist in this specific area. So they feel like they're actually— it's like going to a personal trainer who specializes in whatever. It's like you're going to a specialist who's going to focus on communicating with the girl who you feel is also not communicating.

Exactly. My brain just exploded for a second because I have a question for you about therapy and about what we're talking about, men and women in therapy, or any couples in therapy. On the show a lot, I'm always saying like, well, it sounds like, you know, you need therapy, or therapy would be great. And we know that in a lot of relationships, there might be one person who wants it, the other one doesn't. Men or women, or, you know, same-sex couples. It feels like there's always one person who wants it, and there's always one person who's so reluctant.

They come and they're like, I'm not the identified patient, right? So why am I here? I'm doing a favor, right?

Exactly. Exactly. So, so that's one thing, getting them over the hurdle. And I just feel like, so, but what I always say is it's the most useful thing that you could do in your relationship because so many times couples get into this battle. You can't have the same argument. It's gridlock issues.

That's what happens. It's the same. Yes. It's the same issues that keep coming up.

I feel like every couple would benefit from therapy. And I mean, I mean, like you could be together even like 6 months, but you're trying to work something out. 6 years maintenance. If things are really good, it's good to go back. Do you agree with that? Or do you think there's some couples that actually they're fine, they don't need therapy?

But if they're talking about a conflict?

I don't know. Yeah, I just feel like— don't you? Or you could disagree with me. Couples need therapy.

How is it gonna hurt them? Well, I don't think therapy is ever gonna hurt them unless you find a therapist who just wants to pathologize your gridlock issues. What I say, especially to couples who've just had kids, that come in, I'm like, you should go to therapy. Because what happens a lot of the times is that you are not only exhausted for having a new being in your life, but a lot of times that energy that you put on your partner is now being redirected to someone else. So a partner will feel rejected.

This is gonna happen when you have a child. There will be new struggles. Your relationship is not the same. I absolutely agree because we hear the same. I mean, you probably hear from couples all the time these same challenges around having a kid. I love it. That's true. Go to therapy, everyone. Okay, let's go back to Rachel here for a minute. Rachel from Oakland. I think we gave her some good things Things to think about here. Are you guys well-matched in other areas and how to talk to them about it. So let's move to another email. This is Eric 48 from Michigan. Hey Emily, as a male survivor of sexual harassment, I was wondering if you could offer any advice on overcoming the trauma and how do I reengage in the dating scene. Thanks. And he doesn't give any information on the trauma and I know you're a trauma specialist, it's one of your specialties. So what would you say to this? Sexual trauma, sexual harassment, male survivor of sexual harassment.

It's still trauma. Right. And that's— it's a big T for trauma. So my suggestion is, Eric, go to— go online and look at— and I don't know if you'll have it in Michigan, I know that they have in certain states— the trauma resiliency model.

Trauma resiliency model.

It's a type of model that a number of therapists are learning how to use with patients who've gone through a lot of trauma, and they're actually using it with a lot of wounded warriors who are coming in who are not benefiting from talk therapy nor any medication. That this type of— What is it exactly? It is— Is it like EMDR? It's similar to EMDR, but it's really about having the patient— if I'm the therapist, you're the patient, I'm going to have you first bring up a resource that brings a sense of calm, or if it's not calm, something that's neutral. And it can be one of your senses that is affected by that resource. So you can say, I— My visual resource is looking at the ocean. Then I'll get you into that mode. And then I would say, what do you notice? You say, I just notice calm. And then I would have you not narrate it to me. Just say, it feels blue, it feels warm, it feels whatever it is. Then I'll say, let's go to the activating event. So the trauma. The trauma. Then if I'm noticing, and then I would ask them, what do you notice? You're like, I feel like my neck is kind of closing up or my stomach is really hurting. We go back to the resource. So what you're doing is you're teaching your body how to handle that trauma without going into the fight, flight, flee mode. Right. That's, that's great work.

That's fascinating. Okay, we've got one more. Kia, she's 29 from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Hi Emily, back in August I confessed to cheating on my wife. We were together for 4 years before marrying. Lesbian couple. Ever since I came clean, which only happened happened one time and never again. I feel like she's been punishing me. I would never have cheated if I was getting what I needed sexually. Additionally, my wife has body image issues. When I tell her she's beautiful and I truly love her, she thinks I'm just saying those things because that's what you do when you're married. Now that I've been upfront with my cheating incident, she wants me to jump through every hoop possible to prove that this relationship is what I want. I'm very upfront that I cheated because I was lonely and insecure, and I know there's no excuse. Do I spend my entire life trying to prove my love repent my mistake and convince my wife this is where I want to be. If she's not willing to meet me halfway, I feel stuck, and I'd love some advice.

She goes to therapy. She can't do this on her own. She can't. She can't try to, because her wife is punishing her because she's still traumatized by the betrayal, right? And so they— but they also need the vocabulary too.

They used to go together though, right?

Go together as a couple, right? So if she's in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania—

yep, she's Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Okay, so if they can't find a decent family couples clinic there, they may have to expend the energy to go to New York City, go to the Ackerman Institute, which is a family couples— where you studied— yes, clinic. They can also reach out to Esther Perel, who I know is willing to take on clients.

She's really taking on clients, so that's great. I think, and I hear this a lot, people With cheating, they feel like, I told her everything, you know, I told my partner, why aren't we over it? Can't we move on?

But this person is cheating, though, is trying to get rid of the guilt, right?

And so they're like, but there is a certain process you've got to hear. You do. You got to keep talking about it. It's not going to go away just because of time. You— there's certain things you got to go through and deal with it.

Yes, they're stuck.

I got it. So therapy, it's important. Sarah, thank you so much. Sarah Brokoff for being on the show.

So fun. This is so much This is fun.

We could do this for hours. We will. We're going to continue this. And check out your podcast, Shared Secrets, and everything else at sarahbroca.com. And thank you everyone for listening to the show. Thank you to my amazing, wonderful team. I love you all. Thank you to Ken, Jamie, our volunteers Shannon and Jenny, producer Lark and Michael. And thanks everyone for listening. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.