Surviving & Sexy: Bouncing Back After Breast Cancer

What advice would you give to other women going through this? Like, how— what did your partner do, you think, like, that we could, like, learn from? Like, what were some of the great—

hope that there is an open conversation between the man and the woman, or two women, or whatever. Like, that there's an open conversation that, hey, I'm about to go through this, I don't know what it's going to entail. There might be loss of confidence, I might lose my libido, you know, there might be pain during penetration, whatever. They reduce size of the vagina. I read that and I was just like, What do you mean? It's going to— I'm going to have a reduced— what?

Right. Right. Which is happening anyway at this time in our 40s. It does start to atrophy for anyone.

But you don't— but I think for me, I had never Googled that.

Right. Right.

So knowing what all the traits were for menopause, I thought, oh, okay, well, some of this is— I'm already— I was going to have this happen during menopause. It's now just going to be quicker.

Right.

I think having two partners really discuss physical changes and then the psychological changes. I'm going to be vulnerable. I may not want to get naked for a while. I, you know, for me, I wanted to wear a little, um, a cute tank top. I didn't want to get completely naked for a while, right? Um, and, and then being, I think, open, both of them, both partners, to how is it going to change and evolve. And that, you know what, you may not have to always have an orgasm. That may not be the you may just need to enjoy one another's company and intimacy, and that might be okay.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily Morse, and on today's show, I'm joined by Allison Kaye to talk about how to get your sex life back after having breast cancer. Topics include what it's like to go through breast cancer from diagnosis to treatment, things to ask and information to get from your doctors because, hey, they don't always tell you everything, how to be supportive friends, family, and partners, as well as where to go to find support elsewhere and ways to get back into your body and back into a pleasurable sex life. All this and more. Thanks for listening.

Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day. Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken. She thinks you're kind of cute. A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my.

Do women know about shrinkage? Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks?

Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my God, it feels so good.

Being bad feels pretty good. But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com. You're gonna love our site. You're also gonna like to find us on social media wherever you are on. It's Sex with Emily across the board. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, all the places. Alright guys, I hope you enjoy this very special show. Allison is a financial advisor and she's been a fan of the show. We met at the WUT conference in the Bay Area a few months ago and she truly has an amazing story. A breast cancer survivor got her mojo back in life and in the bedroom, and I'm really grateful for her to tell her story. And be able to share with you some insight from someone who has been through this. So Allison, thank you so much for joining me.

Emily, I— the thanks go out to you. I think as I expressed, you have been instrumental in helping me get my mojo back physically. So, um, big thanks to you.

Yes, of course. I mean, it was so wonderful to meet you, and your letter, I've been carrying it. I carry it in my journal with me every day because it was just such a— it really made me feel good as well that this show was really able to help you get through it. So can you just start by telling, telling me your story about, you know, everything? Yeah.

Thank you. Sure. And I will tell you, when I met you, I had, um, had my ovaries out 2 days prior. So at that conference, I, you know, was maybe hunched over a bit, but, um, I was diagnosed with stage 2 breast cancer when I was 45 and had up until that point been very healthy. And enjoyed a very active physical life, a lot of exercise, and a very fulfilled sex life. I know this is what the call is about. But really had never had any physical issues in my life, nor had my family, no history of cancer. I was diagnosed with a routine screen with breast cancer, and it was stage 2, and it was in my lymph nodes. And, you know, it's frightening at first, when you hear that you have cancer and yet then you wrap your head around, okay, life is never going to be the same for me. But, you know, there are so many different varying degrees of a breast cancer diagnosis and really any cancer diagnosis. I think after, you know, the initial shock over the following 48 hours, I came to understand I had the type of breast cancer that is very common. 80% of the breast cancers are the kind that I had. And it was very treatable and I was going to have a pretty good survival rate. So I then had to kind of shift and focus on, okay, what's, what's life going to look for me during treatment and what's it going to look like after? And at the point was learning that I had had it also in some lymph nodes and my treatment was going to entail a bilateral mastectomy and 4 rounds of chemo. And 6 weeks of radiation. Wow. All of that maybe within a 12-month period. And then I would likely be on a 5-year estrogen blocker drug.

Okay.

And so you kind of tackle it, what do I have to do to survive? And then you kind of, okay, I'm going to lose my hair, I'm going to lose my breasts. That's okay because I'm still going to live and be a viable kind of active. For me, it's important to be very active. So You know, just wrapping your head around what's it going to look like in the new version of me.

Well, Allison, I'm still wrapping my head around. So you were 45, and so how many years ago was that?

That was 3 years ago.

Okay. So I want to understand this. So Allison, you just went in for your yearly mammogram?

Yes.

So you had gotten one every year since you're 40, about? I think that's when they tell us to start getting them, right? 40?

I have very dense breasts, and so at 35, my OB-GYN said, just go in for a screen, a baseline at 35, and so when I started going back in at 40, they knew, okay, I already had, you know, pretty dense breasts, and so I had had 3 or 4 false positives where they said, oh, you need to come back and have a second screen, and every time I had done that, it had come back, no, no, no, you are fine, but thanks for coming in, we wanted a second screen. So honestly, at 45, when I had my mammogram, Nobody said anything. I came back for the second screening 2 weeks ago and it was at that second more complex screening that they said, "We are going to want to do a biopsy." And I thought, "What? I have dense breasts. That is nothing. You are wasting my time." And they said, "Why don't you come back in 2 days? In 2 days we will have the results." And I thought, "Wait a minute." So I went to the diagnosis. Which I didn't know I was getting diagnosed by myself, not with family or friends, just thinking, you know, yeah, we're independent women.

We're like, we're not going to bring people into this. But wait, going back to the dense breast thing, because I've heard this lately a lot, that a lot of women— I was actually told in my last mammogram that I have dense breasts, and she said, well, next year come in and get— what kind is it with, with the dense breasts?

It's a different kind of 3D screen. It can be a 3D screen that they can do for you.

Okay, so you went— so now I'm like, shoot, I should go back earlier. Anyway, so, but I think it's more common to now— so you went and then you came in and they said, okay, we got to move this quickly.

Well, they just said something doesn't look right. We're going to make the tests available for you in 2 days. And I just said, well, great. Have my, have my OB-GYN call me. And she said, no, I think you're going to want to come in. So it was at that point getting the biopsy that I thought, well, wait a minute, do you, do you see something that I should be aware of? And of course, you know, the technician I am very thankful. I think I have really great medical care here in San Francisco. The technician, you know, they can't say anything. So you have to go back in a couple of days when they've actually done the full diagnosis of your exam.

Okay. So then you went back in.

Yeah, it was scary. It was scary. At that one point I thought, no, come on, you're just wasting my time.

Right, exactly. Of course, because you're healthy and you never had any, no one in your family has it. There's no history. So then you go in and then what's the, what's the first step then of the, of the process? Process? Like, do you— did you get them— you get the mastectomy and then you— how does it work?

So for me, in walking in, um, they— this hospital that I go to has a great breast care center. And I know at first when I'm sitting down, they introduced— here is someone who's the hospital facilitator for breast health, and here's the, um, the technician. And that— at that point, before they even said anything, just the introduction, I thought I have cancer because why else would there be two people here? So you sit down and I have done research most of my career in finance, so I do take things from a more maybe analytical view and statistically, okay, you know, give me the facts, what kind is it? I will tell you at that point I knew very little about breast cancer, very little. And didn't know the varying degrees. And you hear about stage 0, stage 1, stage 2, and all I knew was, you know, stage 4 is bad.

Yeah, I think that's what most of us know, right?

I knew nothing. And so at that 30-minute meeting, you know, I just— at first, I don't know what happened the first couple of minutes because you're somewhat numb, and I didn't cry, but just kind of the— I think researcher in me started asking questions. What is the survival rate? What is the diagnosis? What is the treatment? And they say, well, here is what you are going to do. You are going to meet with a breast surgeon. You are going to meet with an oncologist. This hospital that I am associated with, they put together a team and these people kind of work with you, the radiologist, oncologist, breast surgeon, and you— here is a handful of people that you can go and you can have two opinions. On which type of doctors that you want.

Okay.

So that's kind of, I took all that and still then went back after I left that meeting, cried and cried and cried in the bathroom right there, which I'm certain most women do.

I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. This happened to my best friend. Very similar. Yeah.

Oh yeah. And then it's like, okay. And then I kind of literally sat on Google for probably 10, 15 minutes. Found out the kind that I had and was like, wait a minute, this is 80% of the kind of breast cancers that are diagnosed are this type, the one that I was diagnosed. Survival rates are pretty good in terms of it could be, for me, anywhere from 85% to 92%, 99%, right? Right. Because at that point you didn't know how many lymph nodes and how big. So for me, I used that as, okay, I can get through this. This is fine. I'm a statistic. Okay, I got it. I got it. I'm going to live. I'm not going to die.

Right, right.

But, but I think it's then, am I going to be— am I going to lose my hair? Do I have to have breasts removed? Kind of all the treatments. And that's what happens next is 2 weeks, 3 weeks of meeting with doctors and more doctors and getting second opinions and trying to come to a plan of, okay, what's the plan of attack? What am I going to do and in what order? And for me and the type of breast cancer that I had and where it was, I was able to have a nipple-sparing mastectomy.

Okay.

Which means they basically— and I'm not a doctor, nor am I a cancer expert by any means, but, um, I found a breast surgeon that is able to basically cut underneath the breast, right where your bra line would hit.

Right.

And lift up the skin, if you can imagine, cut out all the breast tissue. Wow. Okay. And then put implants in and take out the portions with under, under both underarms. And hopefully they've been collected all the breast tissue that would have any, you know, remaining cancer associated So after that, then you recover for 6 weeks. I was then given 4 rounds of chemotherapy and then knew, you know, a few weeks after chemotherapy, I would then have roughly 6 weeks of radiation.

Wow. Chemo and then radiation. Okay. So how was that?

But I think some people, you know, depending on the diagnosis, can just have a lumpectomy, which is just a small portion of a breast tissue removed. Some people are not able to have a nipple-sparing mastectomy. So really, if you looked at me naked today, I look very similar.

Okay.

I, I look very, very similar to what I look like naked, um, you know, prior.

So yeah, so the breast— so they take— so they do the surgery first and then you still have to go through chemotherapy even though they're removing all the cancerous tissues.

Correct. And I think that for me, my diagnosis, it's because it had already spread to the lymph nodes and because might be somewhere else in my body, right? If, if it was, and I was really like stage 2 and there's stage 2A and stage 2B, I was kind of in the middle, but it's, I've had, um, friends and people that I've met now that are stage 0 or stage 1 where they've just had a lumpectomy. And maybe radiation because it's confined to that one local area.

Right. That's what I've heard as well. So, okay. So talk to me now. Were you in a, are you in a relationship? What's your life like? You, are you seeing someone? Were you married? Are you married?

I was divorced.

Okay.

And I will tell you having this, um, and I hope he doesn't listen to this. Um, but I would say going through this process, it, it very much affirmed that I was very happy that I had divorced him. I, I, it's hard to say, but it's really, you really evaluate your life with something like this and, and like, okay, are you really surrounding yourself with the people who you want to be around? And I had thankfully a lot of support, family and friends, okay, that, um, were unbelievable. And I did have a partner, a romantic partner, and, um, you know, not planning on getting married, but, you know, just standard boyfriend, but he's not standard because I think he was able to really truly look at me as a woman, a viable woman, and help me along my way, you know, along the journey, and not ever once feel sad for me, feel like, you know, I was a cancer patient, right? You know, and so it's from that standpoint, he was like, I'm here for you. But, but that said, Emily, we weren't so, um, involved with one another that we're going to get married. Right. So it was a boyfriend.

Right. Got it. And your sex life up until then was, how was your sex life? Amazing. So you've always like have great sex communication, all that stuff. I orgasm.

Yes. I think I'm quite, quite fortunate. And you would know all the statistics of this, um, about how frequently women are actually able to have an orgasm. But my mom was, you know, a Gloria Steinem fan. And when I grew up, it was— we always talked about sex. It was something very healthy. She had Cosmo around and like the Joy of Sex. So it was very like, sex is something natural. It's something you do. We're not from a religious family. And it was, yes, you need to respect your body, right? And ensure that others respect your body. So there was a good boundary within it. I wasn't out pouring around, but there was very much—

you understood your pleasure in your body. You had the, the double mastectomy and then you had chemo. How were you still staying intimate with this partner who sounds like he was really emotionally supportive? When did you start to see the impact on your sex drive, your sex life, your connection?

Well, I, I will say probably the month between diagnosis and first treatment, there was very little— like, there's no libido because you're on kind of fight or flight. Yeah. And, and yet I knew enough from enough physical activity and exercise that sex is so good for your mental stability. It helps you sleep, you know, the endorphins. So for me, I kind of thought, this is like a vitamin, right? I need to continuously— I can— I need— and so I kind of went to him and said, look, you know, I'm gonna— I don't know what I'm gonna go through. I don't know what it's gonna look like. I don't know if I'm gonna be bald, right, or have bandages on my breasts I need to have sex and I need you to think of this as like a vitamin for me. And I laughed. I went to one of the pre-chemotherapy sessions with my two doctors, the oncologist, and I have my dad and my stepmom with me and they're telling me about all the side effects I'm about to incur. This is— I've already had my breast removed.

Okay.

And so at this meeting, you know, she's saying, you know, you might lose hair, you might lose your fingernails. You're gonna have like between all of your sinuses, your— the lubrication in your eyes, the lubrication in your anus, anal cavity, right, vagina, everything is gonna basically dry up because you're on these two different drugs, right? I'm like, great. So I said, well, what's sex gonna be like with my dad? She's like, good. I don't— she's like, it's not— it's, you know, and your vagina is a muscle and it is a tissue and you need to keep it healthy, but Frankly, she's like, you may not want to have sex. And I was like, well, is my ass okay? Or is my, you know, is anal on the table? And my dad almost died.

I love you, Allison. I love that you said that with your dad in the room. Right. Good, good. Great question.

But I was like, it was so serious of a conversation. And yet I know that the physical touch is so important, especially I thought for healing. So I basically said the same thing to my My partner at the time, like, look, I might have loss of libido. I'm going to have fatigue. I'm going to be rapidly pushed into menopause and all the hormone issues that go along with menopause. And yet I'm also, oh, by the way, you can't get on top of me because I have these spacers inside my chest. I couldn't have the implant for a year after my first surgery. So I have these weird hard plastic, almost like an implant, but it's a spacer inside the chest.

Okay.

So that I, you know, so I basically said to him, and I don't know that I'm going to have any confidence. And he's like, well, great. You'll just be on top all the time. So he was good and he was light about the whole thing. And yet was, you know, hey, it kind of stayed, hey, this is medicine. You know, you said you need to get it on.

Let's go. Good. Yeah. So how did you keep it lit?

Yeah.

So what happened? Like, how did you? Yeah.

I will say you helped me. Tremendously because I knew I need to have this. I started talking about girlfriends. Hey, what, you know, I already had 1,000 different toys, vibrators, you name it. And then I was, so I told my partner, like, I need to watch porn and I don't really want any crazy, I don't want any, you know, people slapping each other. And he's like, great. I would try to find different erotica. I tried to read the vampire books, but they were too cheesy for me. But, you know, trying to do anything that would help get my mindset out of I'm sick and going through this to I'm still a viable, sexy woman, which I did not feel like. But I kind of also knew though, Emily, this is healthy for me to have a physical connection. So I started listening to your podcast all the time. And girlfriends kind of, oh, you got to listen to Sex with Emily, she's hysterical. And it was through that, I just knew you had random people on and you were different, you know, speakers that I just thought, yeah. And then, oh, you know what, I'm just gonna have so much lube that I still have, you know, I'm gonna try this kind of lube that you suggested, that kind of lube. And then the toys, I don't know how many different toys I bought of yours.

Great, amazing.

And I was like, I love this woman. And so I don't know if there were other podcasts and books, but it was really like changing. And I think being aware that, okay, I can't change that my physical appearance is going to look different. I was thankful I did not have to lose my hair. I did a cold cap during chemotherapy.

You did a cold cap?

It's called a penguin cold cap. So you basically freeze your hair follicles. During each chemotherapy treatment. And it allowed me to at least keep my hair. Okay.

That's a bit— I didn't know that about that.

Yeah. But I lost hair everywhere else but on my head. Okay.

So, so tell me about this though. Like, did your doctors, did they— so really was the only conversation you really had with them about sex was that one with your dad in the room or was there any other information?

No, it was just that one. And I frankly, went and had to do my own research. I even went to Good Vibrations here in San Francisco and said, you know, this is what I'm going through, do you guys— and they were like, oh, you might need a dilator, you need this kind of lube, um, because you really, during chemotherapy, you have to stay away from bacteria, you have to stay away from infections. So I kind of like, what do I want, silicone versus— basically you need, you need to stay as healthy as you possibly can.

So, so was that helpful? So what was the most helpful? So, I mean, Alison, your, your story is amazing to me that you really prioritized sex along everything else. I would think, especially for many women of our, you know, our age in our forties, we're like, well, thank you. Many women would be like, well, thank God I wasn't really wanting sex anyway. But you were so— it is mindset. This is a really great example of like mind over matter that when we keep our pilot light lit, when we keep our brain on board with sex, You know, were you able to still, like, what were some of the challenges? Were you still able to order?

Yeah, I, I would say this, and this is, I kind of laugh, is, um, we, he was great. We had kind of a mini romantic weekend a week before, like, two, I don't know, a few days before my first surgery, a few days before my first chemo treatment, a little mini trip to Yosemite in the middle of chemotherapy, you know, between weeks, the second and the third round, and then a little trip to the South right before radiation. And so I think I also— I don't know at what point— told him, you know, he's always been very focused on making sure I have an orgasm, but I said I don't want it to be that goal. For me, this goal is going to be a connection, time together, right?

Did you still have desire? Like, what changes did you know? Did you dry up? Did you feel like Totally.

Oh my God, it was a desert. I mean, total desert. And I would say, I mean, if you think about that, not having any mucus anywhere in your body, Emily.

Oh God.

Not in your nose, not in your eyes. Like, my body was a desert and I was drinking so much water, it didn't matter.

It doesn't matter, right? Did you have orgasms? Were you still having pleasure?

I did, but not, I did, I did, but not anywhere to the same degree that I did before. So yes, I could, but I also kind of, I'm an overachiever, had to basically say, well, that's not gonna be the entire point of it. The point is for us to lay in the bed and have connection and be naked and to still use my vagina as a muscle, right?

Right, do your Kegels.

And keep, exactly, keep that tissue healthy because when I'm done with treatment, I wanna be able to pick back up.

Right.

So I had read about, and you would probably know more about this, if I decided not to have any sex whatsoever during those 6 months, you know, was I gonna have, you know, vaginal atrophy?

And yeah, I don't—

I, I was afraid of that. So I thought— I don't even know what that is from a doctor's standpoint. Nobody talked about that. But I thought, I'm gonna avoid that, whatever it is.

We're gonna take a quick break, and we come back more with Allison. So you kept having sex, and did you use the dilators? Like, what was helpful for you?

Like, tons of lube.

Which lube? It's okay. What kind of lube?

You know, I know you, you like a different kind. I happen to love the Astroglide, and that, that worked for me.

Okay, great.

I tried a lot of different ones that you had suggested. That was kind of the one that worked the best for me. Um, I tried a ton of different toys.

Which toys were helpful?

The Womanizer.

Yeah, the Womanizer, I think. Yeah, hands down amazing, right? So that really helped you. So you were still able to have orgasms and you're still able to have sex?

I think you told me about, um, funny, the other one that's got like a black prong. But, um, I did have a little bit of pain.

Okay.

It's very gentle, and so would just take it easy and take it slow. It kind of lost the— not the desire for oral because frankly I thought, and I'm certain I smelled weird with all the chemicals in my body, right? So I didn't— I couldn't kiss as much.

Yeah, because you're dry, your mouth is dry.

God. So I would basically say, you know, I don't— I'm happy to give you oral, I don't want any oral at this point in time. He's so great. No, no, no. And I was like, trust me, it's— I can't feel good in my own skin because I think I smell, right? And you know showering, but it's not that, it's chemicals. So there was a little bit of pain, but honestly tons of lube and patience.

Yeah, being patient, going slow, building your arousal. So was like watching porn helpful? Was erotica helpful?

Yes, yes.

All of it.

So I would almost have to, it's like a workout and I've done a lot, you know, a lot of physical achievements physically. So I kind of knew this is the same thing. I've got to work up to it. And here's the thing, it's like, you understand, if I can't achieve an orgasm, it was still a good session, right? Or it was still, we were together, we bonded, we connected. There's endorphins and stuff. We're touching one another, but maybe I didn't have an orgasm every time.

Right. So in that year, so tell me, then you started to go to the chemotherapy and then you had to take medications, the estrogen blocking medication.

Yes. And then I will tell you, it is, was, and this goes not just for women with breast cancer, but for menopause. Right, right. One, I have chin hairs, um, you know, going through menopause and, and the hormonal swings from that and the hot flashes.

Um, and you can't take anything, like you can't— obviously you can't take bioidentical hormones.

No, I'm taking the opposite. I'm taking things to—

right, exactly. You're draining your estrogen, but then— and so it's coming on fast, but you're still throughout all of this Would you— what was the longest you think that you went out— when you went without intimacy in this whole process or in the last 3 years? How long?

9 days. I'm embarrassed to say I had had— I'm embarrassed by this. I don't know why I'm embarrassed. Um, I had had my double mastectomy. I had had my 2— like, you have drainage tubes, and I got them out on like the 8th day, which is I'm healthy, so I'm thankful that's— but they took out the tubes there. And then I told him, I'm like, okay, we— and he's like, you're on bandage? And I was like, I don't know how, but, you know, we were gonna scissor, we're gonna do something, but I need to make sure I work. He's like, of course you work. So, you know, I did not come. I did not.

No, but you kept it going. You kept it going with it. You're amazing, Allison. All this— I mean, and how about your sensitivity in your breasts after it? Like, did you have sensitivity before, and what's it like now?

I did have— I, I will tell you, um, I never truly appreciated the sensitivity in my breasts. I never did. I took it for granted, and, uh, I truly, truly took it for granted. And I have none right now, none on either breast. Um, I'm— and, you know, nothing on my underarms, nothing on my breasts, and it is what it is. And so you have to kind of resort to, can you get a little feather duster and, you know, massage my legs or my feet or my back? Can you do other things so that I get physical connection? Um, so that it's work.

It is work. I mean, but you were in for it. And I'm sure knowing you, you were probably working the whole time and living your life and working out and working on your sex life, which is amazing to me. Did you— what did you discover? Like, did you learn like new erogenous zones? Did your sex life get Did it improve in some ways? Because I would think with all the focus and attention, I'm going to think that like the bright side, perhaps you discovered other paths to pleasure.

Well, I, or you, it is now more intense, oddly intense.

How? Explain that to me.

It is more intense in that is maybe a, like, because I have to work up to it, right? 25 minutes. 35 minutes.

Work up to orgasm or work up to arousal?

Orgasm. Okay, work up to orgasm, which in the past— and maybe that's— I don't know, you can tell me what the averages are. Before, I think it was very quick, right?

Uh, even with a vibrator, is it still 25 minutes?

Yes, it is still 25 minutes. And it has to be— I gotta try a couple different poses, I have to have, um, the music right, or the ambiance. I have to set stage. And, and the thing is, so some of the spontaneous— where before I could have sex anywhere, outside, you know, in a car, everywhere— so now it has to be a little more planned out. Um, but yeah, but with it, I still think, damn, I still got it, right? And I, um, you know, I had my, my ovaries out when I—

yeah, tell me about the ovaries. What was that about?

Getting So that is— so I'm going to guess 18 months into me taking the anti-estrogen pills and 18 months after diagnosis, my menstruation— I started having a period again.

Okay. Wow.

All right. But you have— I basically need to— for me to ensure that I have no breast cancer cells continue to populate, I need to make sure I have no more estrogen. So having, you know, going back and having my period, ovulating is not what I wanted. So they had to put me on another drug, Lupron, every 3 months. I would have to get a shot and I hate the side effects from that. So I went to my OB-GYN and she says, well, why don't we just— why don't you just take your ovaries out? It's a very easy laparoscopic procedure. And again, my question to her was like, well, will I still have sex?

Yeah, exactly. What did she say?

Yes, you will.

Right.

Yes, you will.

Um, say that again. You said, will I still have a sex drive? Is that what you said?

Yeah, of course. You know, and she's like, well, if you're in menopause already, it's, it's probably the same. Um, and my thought was, well, I, will I still have an orgasm? She's like, yes, you will. Okay. So, um, yeah. And, and that will tell you, there was some pain from that 2, 3 weeks later trying to have sex. So that was that kind of took a little bit of time not having pain because as I learned how they, with the laparoscopic, they kind of fill your abdomen up with a lot of air and gas, I guess it is. So they can find the ovaries, they cut them out. So things kind of shift. So that was a little painful, but he was very, and it probably took 2 or 3 weeks for it not to be painful. And he was, um, again, very patient. Wow.

So what is the, God, this partner sounds amazing. So what advice would you give to other women going through this? I said, like, how— what did your partner do, you think, like, that we could, like, learn from? Like, what were some of the great—

I hope that there is an open conversation between the man and the woman, or two women, or whatever. Like, that there's an open conversation that, hey, you know, I'm about to go through this. I don't know what it's going to entail. There might be loss of confidence. I might lose my libido. Um, you know, there might be pain during penetration, whatever. They reduce size of the vagina. I read that and I was just like, What do you mean? It's going to— I'm going to have a reduced— what?

Right. Right. Which is happening anyway at this time in our 40s. It does start to atrophy for anyone.

Exactly. But you don't— but I think for me, I had never Googled that.

Right.

Right. So I went through. So knowing what all the traits were for menopause, I thought, oh, okay, well, some of this is— I'm already— I was going to have this happen during menopause. It's now just going to be quicker.

Right.

I think having two partners really discuss You know, the physical changes and then the psychological changes. I'm going to be vulnerable. I may not want to get naked for a while. I, you know, for me, I wanted to wear a little, a cute tank top. I didn't want to get completely naked for a while. Right. And then being, I think, open, both of them, both partners, to how is it going to change and evolve. And that, you know what, you may not have to always have an orgasm. That may not be the— you may just need to enjoy one another's company and intimacy, and that might be okay.

And also, like, it's like, it sounds like, Allison, I mean, the thing is you really had to go do your own work. Like, did you ever talk about what— when you're getting your ovaries out, did they give you any information about sex or did you have to ask?

I had to ask. They did not. And I will tell you, the conversation with the oncologist that personally would It's so weird and very uncomfortable. And there's not enough out there about sex. And I know there is tons of material out there for menopause and how menopause can hit, but how the two tie together. Okay, you're about to go through this breast cancer treatment and there are women who are doing the same treatment in their 20s and 30s, unfortunately.

Yeah, I know. And they're not getting any information.

No. And I think then realizing, okay, well, you tell me, Emily, what is the vagina made out of? It's tissue, right?

Right.

How do you keep that tissue healthy? If you have a sprained leg or a broken leg, you still want to basically keep that tissue healthy. So how do you do that? And then, I don't know, I, I think I was open to podcasts, erotica, different toys, different lubrication. Dressing up in funky outfits, like what's going to get me—

And what did, what did though, Allison? What would you say? Like what was the most helpful and what was least helpful for you?

Um, I think my most helpful was that I was open to this is going to change. I knew my, my sex life is going to be different and that's okay.

Right. And so positive, Allison. It's so, it's so, this is so inspiring really. I mean, I think just the fact that you're like, this is going to change, but what can I do to get ahead of it? And not without the victim. And really, I mean, thank you for sharing this. So, so it was helpful just kind of trying everything, keeping your mind on board with it and being like, trying everything. So exactly.

Now I, I cannot, um, have an orgasm today on top. Can't do it.

Okay.

You can try for hours and hours. It won't work. Won't work.

Okay, but before you were able to— were you able to have an orgasm internally and externally?

Yes, just no problem whatsoever.

Okay, and now it's only externally?

Uh, it is only externally. Literally? Yep, that's it. Okay, which is fine, which is fine, because then I think, gosh, right? So I think it's been open and then, okay, my new normal is this. But here's the thing, Also, right, I'm 3 years past my diagnosis. I'm not giving up. Can I have a double again? Right? I'm still like, there's hope that things will still continue to improve.

I think so. I believe they will. I know they will. I believe you'll be able to orgasm in all the ways you were before. In fact, I pretty much know it. Because again, it's just relearning it. It's relearning it and the different nerve endings and stuff, but I feel like you will be able to. And you're gonna have to keep me posted on that. But have you talked to other women?

There needs to be more research, and I think, or not research, but help for women going through this so that they're not Googling all the terrible side effects. And, you know, I was so thankful going in here in San Francisco, having women at Good Vibrations saying, oh, try this, oh, try this.

I love that Good Vibes was successful. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I got my first vibrator there. A huge fan of Good Vibrations. So did you talk to other people like in the process, other women who were having— because they're like a support group, or do you have other people that you shared your story with or who are going through? Because I feel like every woman has a different experience, but ultimately what they could learn from you is that you got to like do your work on your own, which everyone woman needs to do whether they're going through this or not, frankly. But you had to go into overdrive with it.

I went into overdrive. I think when I did, I had a good group of women friends, and most of them are older and had been going through menopause already. So I think talking to them, they were like, oh, that's normal. That's typically menopause. That's not even cancer. That's just menopause.

Right.

So I think kind of as I learned more about menopause, because I wasn't ready to go through menopause mentally until I got the diagnosis, then I kind of realized, well, wait a minute, I would have gone— I would have been going through all these changes anyway.

Right.

That's true.

Just a little bit earlier, just a little bit earlier. Was there anything that wasn't helpful? Like, was there any misinformation that people are hearing that you're like, oh God, don't listen to that. Like anything that we could just kind of discourage people from going down that?

I think thinking that it has to be the same as what it was. I think I, and for me, this was hard because I wanted things to be, have the exact same as I had before. And, and it's different and that's okay. Right.

And do you feel like your arousal— yeah, I mean, do you feel like desire changed? Because, you know, we hear that again. I know it's probably hard to tell, but like, is it menopause? Is it, is it from the meds? But for so many women, they're like, I just don't have the desire anymore.

The loss of libido is definitely— it is— there is a loss of libido. And it is being mindful, just like you work out, just like you eat right, like This is good for my body. Let's get it on, right?

It really seems like it helped.

I think so. And I have to think, you know, physical touch still helps couples and people in your mentality. So why don't I want to rub around naked with my partner?

Exactly right.

Wow.

Allison, your story is so—

and then the sleep. I will say the sleep deprivation, right, gets on you when you're going through some kind of healing like this. And all you really want to do is sleep. And then I kind of thought, you know what, maybe if we have sex, I'll sleep better. So I don't know. I, everything was like, this is a muscle or tissue. And I have to, I mean, I think it is a mental thing though.

Like the fact that you did it and you probably would sleep better after you have an orgasm or after you have intimacy with our partner. Cuz a lot of times we don't because there's stress around not having the intimacy with our partner. So then we're awake cuz we're not connecting. So like making that part of your routine that like we have to make sure that we connect on a regular basis. Was probably very, was very, very healing. Um, Alison, this is amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. Are you having pain right now when you have sex? How is— you said after you had your ovulation?

No, no, no, it was, it was the first couple of weeks and then no.

So are you feeling any kind of changes since then, like anything in the last like few months? No. Okay, this is, this is incredible.

I, I mean, for me, and I, I don't know, I, you know, no, I have joint pain, but that has nothing to do with my, my sexy parts.

So, so really it sounds like this partner of yours is pretty incredible. We could all learn from this. Like, it actually brought you closer together in ways. Yeah, it was very supportive.

And I would hope, I would hope women who are going through even menopause, right, not even cancer, I hope they would have a partner that would be understanding of their changes and open to helping them without being judgmental.

And I guess, yeah, I would hope so too. But you were saying, it's interesting, you were going through a divorce and you're like, thank God, because I knew he couldn't be there. So I guess this is time where you test and you're like, you know, we kind of know who would show up or not, whether it's your friend or your lover, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. Well, anything else that we need to know? Because I want to— I also want to ask you the 5 questions we ask all of our guests. But do you have any questions for me, or is there any, um, anything else that was like— I'm trying to think, was there anything like that you learned that you're like, I wish that every woman knew this? I mean, you've shared so much, we're all just So fascinated here listening to your story. Is there anything else?

Um, I would love to have something, you know, Sex with Emily, a little like card on every oncologist's desk. So when they have a woman that they're talking to about their upcoming treatment, they can turn around and say, you know, and, and if you do, you know, have a partner and wanna get your mojo and, and hear, you know, listen to this lady, reach somebody like you that is a expert in the field and can help kind of break down the barriers that people might have because they're really truly focused on how do I survive, how do I eat right and do all these other things. And I think that in terms of peace of mind is so important. So I don't know if there's something you could do, if somebody, you know, someone like you could be on, uh, in front of a bunch of oncologists, you know, I think that's not a bad idea.

Yeah, no, I mean, I, I would, I would love to do that. I did. I mean, I, because I've heard this, like I said, my best friend went to this who's also in the Bay Area, and she kept asking me. She was not getting any information about it, and she was just like, oh, I'm really dry. I'm like, yes, of course you are, and here's why. And I was like sending her toys and lubes. And so, so I'm so glad that you found help with the show and, and all the things that you did. It's just such a, um, a story of inspiration, and I— you're amazing, Allison. So thank you.

I'm so— thank you again. I'm so grateful for you, Emily, and the giggles, and it's fun, and and it just makes it, it's been, it's been, I think, a much sweeter experience with you having you in my life.

Oh, Alison, I feel the same. I mean, really, thank you so much for your kind words and your note. And I'm just so glad we could connect. And now it's like, you know, we all help each other. So you're helping all of my listeners right now. So thank you, Alison. And so, okay, so I'm going to ask you the 5 questions we ask our guests.

Ready? Okay.

Okay. What's your biggest turn-on? These are quickie questions. Biggest turn-on?

Smell.

Okay. Biggest turn-off?

It would also be smell. It's a good one.

What makes— smell, right? What makes good sex?

Good partner.

Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships?

Oh, I would say enjoy the Breasts more. I mean, for me, I, I didn't— I truly underappreciated the sensitivity. Yeah, that's a good one.

Okay, number one sex tip: lube. Yes, Allison, we're so aligned. Allison, you're amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story and, and for, for opening this up for women, I think, everywhere. I think we all know people who are going through this and going through breast cancer. It doesn't have to be the end to your sex life. And so I'm so glad you found the show helpful. I'm so glad the show has brought us together and you'll have to come visit when you are in Los Angeles. And just thank you, Allison. I really appreciate it. Really inspiring.

My pleasure.

Thanks for your time.

Have to.

Thanks, Allison. If you like the show, and we hope you do, just right now, you can just do this very quickly. Just subscribe wherever you're listening, subscribe to the show. Um, it really helps us. We release 3 shows a week and that way we can get on people's radar. And if you like it, leave us 5 stars, especially on iTunes. We love that. And let me know what you want to hear more on the show, like what more guests you want to hear, what topics. And thanks for always reviewing and, and also for sending to a friend who might need this information. It helps everybody. So you can send me emails about all that at feedback@sexwithemily.com. Our newsletter, I love our newsletter. We give, we give a great one every week. If you ever missed anything on the site or with the shows, we just sum it up for you in a cool newsletter on Fridays or Thursdays, one of those days. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristin, Elisa, producer Jamie, and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.