Take Your Sex Life from Stale to Sexy, Part 2

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I want to know that I can take you someplace that you can't take yourself sexually especially.

Eroticism is about imagination, not the 20 positions that you can come up with.

Right?

If you want to be a good partner, then you want to make that person feel better about themselves when they're around you than when they're not.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. When it comes to sex and long term relationships, why do they always start out hot and then go lukewarm? Why does our eroticism go dormant once the newness of a relationship wears off? And what are some specific strategies for bringing back the heat we desperately long for? Well, it's part two in our Best of special. If you haven't heard part one yet, pause this episode and come back after. I'm taking your sex life from stale to sexy and I can't wait to let you listen in on my conversations with John Weiland and Esther Perel. And a bit of wisdom from Tom Bilyeux. John is a relationship coach specializing in polarity and embodiment, and for this show I've selected his most potent advice on hot sex. According to John, getting in touch with our masculine and feminine energies, regardless of gender has the power to transform the way we show up in bed. Next, I talked to Esther Perel, well recognized couples therapist, author and fellow podcaster who explains how a couple's sex life loses its passion. Our partners become reliable and safe, which is great for a relationship, but according to Esther, not always great for sex. So how do we revive the mystery, the risk and the sense of adventure with our partners? Listen for the sensual techniques she uses to help couples get back in touch with their hungry side. Finally, Impact Theory's Tom Bilyeu dishes on desire and why attraction for other people is not death for a relationship. All right, Intentions with Emily for each episode, join me in setting an intention. I do it. I encourage you do the same. Well, my intention is to give you new ideas to help solve an age old problem keeping your sex life hot. Please rate Review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show. I've got tons of great articles up@sexwithemily.com and also check out my YouTube channel for more sex tips and advice. If you want to ask me a question, just call my hotline 559-talk-SEX or 559-825-5739. Leave me your questions or message me sex with emily.com askemily all right everyone, enjoy this episode.

This topic is probably the one I get asked most often because most long term couples are desperate to return to the passionate sex they had at the beginning or they hopefully had at the beginning. You're gonna get some truly valuable insights from John, Tom, and Esther, but here are three of my top tips to revive a stale sex life. First, get to know and understand polarity. You'll hear a lot about that in this episode, but basically what I'm talking about is masculine and feminine energies. We all have them inside of us. We do. We use them throughout the day. We're always switching back and forth. But think about it. Which type speaks to you and which type do you crave receiving? Second, prioritize novelty. Like, how are you bringing novelty and adventure back into your relationship? It doesn't have to be sexual. I'm not saying you have to swim for the rafters. It could be traveling to a new location, trying a new activity together, or going on a gorgeous hike. Couples who are constantly trying new things together tend to keep the connection and the intimacy going strong finally, get curious about your partner's desire and use that desire to create an erotic atmosphere. So pay attention. Have conversations with your partner about desire, about turn ons. Remember, recap the conversation. Create a Google Doc for all I care. Just find a way to become an expert not only in what your desires, but also your partners. All right, onto the show. I want to start with John Wineland, who explains what polarity is and why it makes for such satisfying sexual encounters.

So we all have a masculine and a feminine, right? We all have. These are universal energies, right? Yin and yang, north pole, south pole, consciousness and energy. I mean, the world is filled with. There's two specific laws around intimacy. The first is that we're all the same, right? We're all human. You know, I have fear, you have fear. I have a soul. You have a soul if you believe in that, right? I want love, you want love. And the first step in getting intimacy is to see that in each other. Like, yeah, like, you know, I'm goodness, you're goodness, and kind of give each other start from that place of we're the same. And that's great, but there's not a lot of in that. You know what I mean? Like, and so.

Fuck you mean, like, not a lot of hotness.

Not a lot of hotness, Right?

All right.

Yeah. So that's the first step is really like finding sameness, like, and recognizing each other's humanity. There's also the laws of polarity, which the universe has too. Magnetism is a perfect law of polarity. And what we realized is that along with sameness, there needs to be difference. And this does not. This is not gender. The problem is a lot of people conflate this with gender.

That's why I need to explain it. They're like, no, I'm not like that. I'm like, we all have those energies in with. In us.

We all have them. And for there to be the deepest kind of sexual intimacy, we need both the sameness recognized and we need the differences recognized. And one way to work with this. You know, my teacher David Dana talked about this a lot. He's written a lot of books on this. So you can definitely check out his books listeners, if you want to get more into this.

Yeah. D E I D a fan of.

His work, and he outlined that for there to be the deepest connection and the hottest sexual polarity, meaning charge, that one person had to animate their masculine and relax their feminine. And one person had to animate their feminine and relax their masculine. And when you have that Coupled with the, you know, we're one, basically. I'm human, you're human, you get really deep connected sex. Right. And so the masculine and the feminine really are speaking to universal energies that we all have. Now the rub here is that still for most people, especially over 30, most men identify with their masculine. Right, right. Not all. Not all.

Right. And we're talking about in the bedroom specifically when it comes to intimate relationships.

Yeah, that's the first place. But you know, and we'll get into a little bit the distinctions between the two and then most, most women identify with their feminine, even though they might have, you know, mad masculine capacity in the workplace, in the courtroom and the, you know, wherever they are, wherever they're doing that. But at their heart they would prefer to be ravished and taken somewhere cherished, ravished, taken someplace deeply by somebody that they trust. Right. That's how you know you have a feminine sexual essence if you prefer to be the ravisher. Right. And to be washed with the energy. Right. If you're just really wanting energy. So you want to, you. If you want to be surrendered to sexually, which most masculine.

Explain that. And again, I want to just say one thing too that let's explain that this be gay relationships, same sex couples, same thing. There's usually to make sex hot, there's a masculine and feminine energy. So I just want to put that out there that that's how it plays.

Doesn'T matter the gender orientation or the.

Sexuality, someone's leading, someone's following. So let's talk surrender.

Right.

So what the masculine wants.

So you want to be trusted fully. Like I want to know that I can take you someplace that you can't take yourself sexually especially like there's a place in your heart, there's a place in your body that you can do all kinds of things on your own. But there's certain things that you can't do on your by yourself. For you to surrender your capable leadership, which you're probably pretty good at, and trust me. Right. And literally give me your body, your heart, the deepest part of both. That would be a surrender. Like a full bodied, you know, the way it occurs to the masculine partner is like, take me, like, take me, I'm your like kind of like a sexual helplessness.

Right.

And the masculine craves that deeply to be trusted so much that you'll give me everything.

Okay, so here's my question. I hear, I guess because I'm a woman, I understand this more. I intrinsically understand that experience. I hear from women all the time. That's what they desire. But for men, I, they don't use those words. Not like I just want her to. They might say, why won't she do anal? But they're not saying to me, like.

But that's a question of surrender, right?

It is.

That's a surround. I mean that, that illustrates. Anal illustrates exactly that.

It's like the taboo, give me your anal.

Well, for, for you, for you to surrender that kind of, that part, part of your body to me and do it open heartedly and with complete desire. That is a surrender.

That's true. One of the biggest surrenders.

That's why men love it, Right? Because I mean, you know, it feels good. It doesn't necessarily feel better than, you know, than regular sex, but it means.

Something in the sexual.

It means something. It means you're surrendering and trusting me.

Right. It is the ultimate act of trust and surrender. Absolutely.

Because.

Let me give you another example because I hear from just as many women who are saying my partner or saying this about their male partner is he doesn't want sex as much. He doesn't initiate. Sometimes I think he doesn't even like it. He did at the beginning. I tell him what I want, he doesn't listen. So what about that masculine energy? Not connecting? Because that's really common.

Yeah.

So what's that guy all tripped up on?

Well, you know, there's a couple different ways to go about this. So first of all, men are let the masculine, the masculine. Sometimes I'll say men, because most men are masculine essences, but that's not always true. The masculine prefers peace, nothingness, numbness, emptiness, less. Even the masculine and you. Right, and masculine. A lot of women these days, you know, a lot of women meditate, they actually love that part. And the masculine in all of us prefers that. Well, sex and relationship are a whole lot of something. So we're not necessarily. When I say we, I mean, you know, masculine guys. I consider myself a masculine essence. We love you. And yet that's not where we would want to go naturally. Now in the first year, year and a half, there's hormones, there's dopamine, there's, you know, there's all kinds of drugs that are helping us like continually go there.

Right.

But once you get into a longer term relationship, that's just kind of natural. The masculine is, is thinking about purpose, thinking about success, freedom. Success to the masculine occurs as freedom.

Right.

I'll be free when I write my book. I'll be free when I make this much money. I'll be free when I have this kind of sex, I'll be free. When I travel the world, I'll be free. Right. And so a lot of men are living in that myth that freedom is hitting a goal of some kind. For the feminine, the question is more like, when will there be enough love? Right. There'll be enough love when I find the right guy, or there'll be enough love when we have the right sex, or there'll be enough love when my husband does this. There'll be enough. And both of them are myths. Right?

There's.

There's never enough for you.

There's never enough anything, and there's never enough love.

Right.

Or the flip side, there is enough as there is in the moment.

Like in the moment, there's in the moment, Exactly. That's a great point.

Keep thinking you're going to get somewhere. That's where it's all going to happen. When you get married, you have the kids, the house, the perfect partner. Guess what? But going back to this, I'm going to go back to the sex thing because I liked my example and you thought it about women wanting to be ravaged and how that feels. I still can't. I need the example for the men. And then we're going to move how that heightened sex feels when he's feeling the surrender. The surrender.

Well, can we use your anal example, please? That really is the perfect example.

No, I love it. Let's do it.

So let's say I'm with my partner and this is on the table. Anal's on the table. And, you know, it's obviously something that is, you know, not easy for every woman to do. There's a certain level of trust inherent in that. And there's obviously pain involved sometimes. Right. And so there's a certain level of having to relax her body and surrender into me penetrating her deeply.

Right.

Probably the deepest place in her body. Yeah.

So.

And so I'm penetrating the deepest part of her body. She has to relax her body. She has to sort of open her heart to me. Otherwise I don't think she would trust me. Right. So there's a whole bunch of things that have to happen that occur to me as absolute surrender of her heart and body.

Right.

And the other thing that the masculine craves in sex is the energetic range.

Yeah, let's. That's it. Women bring the energy. So.

Yeah, women bring the energy. Men bring the presence and the structure and the. Yeah. To me and to most guys that I know, like that kind of surrender. Another example would be Tying, tying you up. And so the more we get into the taboo pieces where I'm tying you to the bed and leaving you there for a couple of hours and saying, here, you get to eat grapes for two hours and I'll be back. Those kind of, that kind of sex play. That's why it's such a hot play for people with legitimate masculine and feminine essences. Because the feminine wants to surrender in her heart to. Now this gets into the consent piece we were talking about to somebody that she can trust implicitly.

And it's that trust thing, like I've always said here. And like if people, women feel safer, women are more likely to enjoy sex, report having satisfying sex and more orgasms when there was someone they can trust. And trust goes so much deeper than just like, I know who he is, I know where he lives and I, I feel like he's not going to hurt me. I, I googled him, his face. We fence on Facebook. We're talking about this deeper level trust.

Can we bring that deeper level trust back to anal sex?

Yes.

Okay, let's just. Okay, so if we're together, we're in a sexual moment, right. And you can't feel me feeling your heart. Like I'm not looking into your eyes. I'm not breathing with you. I'm moving very fast or I'm disconnected. Right. I'm not in my body or I'm just kind of rushing your heart. Won't. You won't feel me feeling you. And you won't be able to trust me with anal sex. So the, the level of. That's a perfect example from the masking. Like, if you want to go there, man, if this is something you want to go to you, this is one of those things where there's, there's a lot of trust that has to be worked up slowly and, and really she really needs to be felt, especially if you're in that part of her body. Because it could be dangerous, it could be painful. If your heart. Disconnected, it's abuse.

Exactly. It is abuse. And I think that we sense that sometimes when we're like he's disconnected or he doesn't get it's because it's what we're talking about. And also you guys, yeah, anal sex can be painful, but we talk a lot how to do it. So when you're breathing and if it is painful, you guys, you're not breathing, using enough lube and slowing down. So much about great sex is slowing down. Now let's hear from John on the three ways we can have sex and the art of asking for what you want.

There's three ways that we could have sex, right? We could have sex physically, meaning, you know, bodies, two bodies together, right? Focusing on the outside of your body. You know, there's the clitoris and there's the breasts, and there's, you know, I have a penis and there's that whole thing, right? And that's where most of us live, right? In the physical realm. There's also emotional sex. Like you could feel me feeling your heart. We talked about penetration, right? So I could, you know, penetrate you emotionally. Like, feel what you're feeling really deeply and all the way up and down your body. If I practice. And then the third part of sex is this energetic piece where we're talking where one of us is in our feminine and one of us is in our masculine. And we're having sex from that energetic place, right? So it feels literally like the whole body is being, you know, you're inviting me with your whole body and I'm penetrating you with my whole body. Or it's energetic. So most of us live in that first realm. And so this embodiment piece is, is essential to get into those higher realms. Like, and in the third realm, that's where we're talking about, you know, hour long sex, multiple orgasms, weeping, cervical orgasms, you know, withholding ejaculation, spiritual sex. Like, you know, everyone says it was a spiritual experience. That's what we're talking about.

And I think that's what. Yeah, that's what a lot of people, I think when they want more connection, but that's another layer. But I think people would be like, I want that.

Yeah, who the fuck doesn't want that? Like, I want to have my. I want my sex to inspire me and make me, you know, feel divine and fill me with love and make me happy to be alive, right? So embodiment is the practice of moving from living in our heads, which most of us do. We're thinking, thinking, thinking. We've got our iPhones out. We're literally living energetically in our heads and moving us down energetically through breath and just, just breath and awareness. If you breathe into your belly and you place all your awareness into your, you know, into the lower part of your body, you're actually going to be felt in the lower part of your body, right? So the practice of literally becoming more aware of our bodies and using breath to be in our bodies. And then the other piece of embodiment is taking something that is ethereal, like let's call it seduction. So take seduction, right? Most women would love to know how to seduce a man more, right? So this is an ethereal concept, but you could actually make that real through your body so that not only you felt, like, so confident and in touch with the seductress in you, but I would feel it. So it's almost like your body becomes a transmitter for this ethereal concept. Or we could take fierce love, right? And I could get so present and so filled with this thing that you would feel fierce love coming from me.

Even if I just, like, came in the door and was on my phone, like, doing a snap or something.

Now, it might take longer than 30 seconds for you to feel it, but if I was. If I stayed there and I just kept looking at you like, I love you. You're so beautiful. Like, and I just was giving you that energy through my body, you'd have no choice.

I'd be like, forget.

You'd have no choice. Yeah, eventually.

I'm not gonna send that shit, right? No.

Unless you were really mad at me about something we hadn't worked out, but that's a whole different God.

Right?

Okay.

Is it the kind of thing if people go, yeah, I want that? Or maybe they don't want that. They're like, I'm just happy I found the clitoris last week. Which is awesome. Guys, we're not saying this is, like, the only way to have sex. I feel like when I first started learning years ago, people think of tantra or think about, you know, breathing together and delayed ejaculation, all that. But we're not even labeling it that. It's more like we would both have to. When we see each other connect, before we actually had penetrative sex, we would breathe together and we would. Right. Or does it now? Is it just like with your. It just flipped on for you when you're with someone? Or is it more like you still have to have that intention together and meet at that place?

Yeah, well, men are more like blowtorches, and women are more like crock pots in this realm. Right? So. So, yeah, it takes some. Of course it takes time. In fact, I say women shouldn't even have sex unless they're feeling like the man that they're with fully. Like, eye contact. Does he feel my heart? Is he with me fully? Like, hopefully, you know, matching breath. So a way to start having energetic sex is to start breathing with somebody. Slow it down. Yeah.

I guess what I've experienced and think a lot of people is that it's just this. All those layers from childhood, from life. Like people that don't like touch, for example. Like people are like, I don't want to be touched that long or it makes me uncomfortable. I mean, I like, I like what you're saying. Invited out.

But.

Well, not everyone's receptive if you buy this concept that you're going to evoke from him a deeper version of him by revealing more of what's true. Like, so, for example, let's say you're with a guy and he's not feeling you, but you know, you're making out, but you're just like, this guy's not feeling me. And you know, I always encourage women to stop and go, would you like to know what I would need to trust you more?

Right. Okay.

Would you like to know? You know, would you? I mean, and, and rather than abandon themselves and have sex when they don't.

Feel fully connected, which so many women, I think they do that. And men. But I think I hear this from women all the time, that they're like, I just kept going because it already started and I didn't want to stop it and feel rejected. But how great to be that if you're, if you are embodied and you are that self awareness, because you should never continue with anything. There's no contract. You don't have to be there. But to be able to have that self awareness and stop it and say, you know what I would really need? I mean, then what would I say?

Any man worth his salt is going to be. Yeah. Unless he's just so triggered by a powerful woman or anything like that. So you might say, you know, like, I would need you to look into my eyes.

Right.

I would need you to kiss me slower.

Right.

Or I would need to feel you, like really feeling my body. Or I would need you to. I mean. And most women don't even know they can ask this shit, right?

It's so good.

Yeah, yeah. And it will evoke the part of him. Cause men want to make you happy. We do want to make you happy.

They do, they really do. And we want to make men happy, but we don't know how.

Yeah. But feel the difference between I would need you to feel my body versus like slow down or like moving his hand someplace, which is what? You know, which is it. One occurs to the masculine as a heartfelt requirement quest. The other occurs as kind of a. I don't want to even use this term, but it does occur to men like this, like a castration.

Right.

Like, I don't trust you to me. Well, so I'm going to tell you how to me.

Right, Exactly.

And, and most guys would not be with a woman like that, right? Would want to be invited, would want to be. I mean she can ask anything she needs to ask. But, but there's an art to, there is an art.

And that's what you, you teach this work, which I think is, is, is fascinating.

If I could give them something, a communication piece, because this is your thing. Communication is lubrication. Right. So what I would need to trust you more. I mean, who's gonna argue with that?

I know. I love it.

If he does, he's an asshole. Find somebody else.

Let's take a short break. And we come back as Sarah Perel talks to me about the crisis of desire and how we can turn ourselves on.

Welcome back. I've pulled the highlights from my conversation with Esther Perel on wanting what we already have and how pleasure is directly linked to self worth.

For most of history, sexuality in long term relationships, which was primarily marriage, was for procreation, so that you could have eight children for which you probably needed to have more because a few were not going to survive. And sex was primarily a woman's marital duty. So you did it because you had to. And you had a motivation too, which was to procreate. We went from the procreative model to the recreative model. We went from duty to, to desire. We went from sexuality to be kind of an economic asset because children were economic assets to sexuality being for pleasure and for connection. We take it for granted. But it is a massive transformation. And then come the 60s and we have a number of mini revolutions, but primarily we have the democratization of contraception, which means that there is a generation that for the first time has premarital sex, has the permission to do what they want, has contraception in their hand, has asexuality that has been redefined under a completely new organizing principle. And they don't feel like it at home and they don't know why.

Can we want what we already have? Is the fundamental question of desire. What is the difference between love and desire? How do they relate, but also how do they conflict? Why is it that the forbidden is so erotic? Why does parenthood deliver such a fatal erotic blow? What is at stake when the very thing that people rely on is the very thing that becomes most fragile? Because we don't think of desire as something that needs to be cultivated, sustained, actively nourished. We think that because in the beginning, for some of us anyway, it's there, it's just gonna remain there forever. And the forever keeps on getting longer. Exactly. That's the crisis of desire.

We had to get married. We became property of the man. And then we thought, well, we get to pick a partner. And it should be based on this love and sex and connection. Well, it's what we're talking about is the honeymoon phase, right, that everyone goes through at the beginning of a relationship.

No, not everyone, actually, as many people that start lukewarm and become hot later. That is also a myth that everybody starts with a tremendous amount of erotic enthusiasm for their partner. Some do, but many don't. But we don't say it out loud because the myth says that there should be a honeymoon phase.

Okay, well, so those people like in arranged marriages or they're just making, they're making their own arrangements in their head and they think, well, I'm not a true to this person, but they're going to be a great provider. So that's not important to me right now to have that kind of desire.

That or I feel deeply emotionally connected to you. You feel safe to me, you will be good to me, you will not hurt me, you will care for me. And you know, and the fact that I am not as drawn to you physically or feel compatible with you physically is secondary at this moment. My erotic needs and my emotional needs are not aligned. And I am letting my emotional needs be the decisive factor. It's fine.

But is it fine? So how important is sex in a long term relationship?

It may be very important for that very same person, but maybe the emotional need superseded and you have to be, you have to know that, you have to understand that, you know, that same person who made that choice may have been fine for 10, 15 years sometimes, and then that other dormant part of them resurfaces, you know, with a vengeance and says, and what about me? But that doesn't mean that there was a wrong choice that was made at first. There was a choice that was made for different reasons. And those things we have the idea that sexual needs and emotional needs are one and the same and they always go neatly aligned together. And that is not necessarily the case. There are people with whom we can have wonderful sexual encounters, with whom we would never want to live a life. And there are people with whom we want to live a whole life. But we have to mourn a kind of a erotic flatness that for some of us is a real dear loss.

So how do we rec. I mean, I know that a lot of your work is Getting couples to reconcile this and to understand.

The importance of sex, how they can either get it back. You know, we had it at the beginning. That's what I hear a lot. At least they had. Even if they had it for a week, they're even 20 years. That first week was amazing. And they all want to go back. I would say you're never going to go back. But what, what do we do? Like, can we experience desire and deep love at the same time?

Yes, yes, of course. Some of us really do. The way I organized it in my head was actually based on the. On the work also of Stephen Mitchell and others. It was not. It wasn't just my original thinking that we all have two fundamental sets of human needs and we need security and we need safety and stability and predictability. We also need adventure and novelty and risk and mystery and sometimes danger. The degree to which these two organizing needs, existential needs in our life, live inside of us, will tell you the answer to how important is sex? When you say how important is sex in a long term relationship? My first answer to you is, for whom? Tell me the story of that person and who that person is and I'll have a better sense of how to answer that rather than some flat generalizable number. And each of us straddles these two fundamental needs and they change in the course of our life. So some of us.

Will find that the place where we love is also the place where desire feels very free. The safety I feel with you is what unleashes my erotic self. I ask this exercise a lot where I ask people separate the page in two. When I think about sex, I think of. When I think about love, I think of when I am wanted, I feel. When I want. When I desire, I feel. And when I think about desire, between you and me. And then on the other side, when I think about love, when I am loved, when I love and when I think about the love between you and me. And then you look at the connections. For some people, these two seamlessly flow together and one flows from the other. And for other people they are rather separately and disconnected. When I love, I feel deeply responsible. When I desire, I want to be free of all responsibility.

It's that dance that every person has to explore for themselves. Then how do you bring them together? You tell people it's not the desire just for doing sex. Desire and the erotic. You know, I think that that's what frees people up is when I say we're not talking about sex, you can have sex three times A week and feel absolutely nothing. I am not there to help you do it, but I will explore with you. Where do you go in sex? What does sex mean for you? What parts of you get expressed in sex? What is it the vocabulary for. For you? When I go into that frame, it becomes a different conversation. Women have done sex for centuries and felt nothing. So desire is not the desire to do it. Here's the question for desire. I turn myself off when or by is very different than you turn me off when. And what turns me off is. So I turn myself off, say people. I shut down my desire, right? I suppress, I go numb. When I feel self critical, when I feel.

Not in touch with my body, when I am loathsome of my body, when I don't take time to care for myself, when I haven't been in nature or listen to music or done something that is aesthetically pleasing, when I feel undeserving of pleasure, when I worry about money, when you and I fight the whole day. I turn myself on. I awaken myself, I ignite myself, which isn't. You turn me on when. And what turns me on is people will say, I turn myself on when I take care of myself, when I pamper myself, when I dance in the rain, when I meet with friends, when I go to the club. 90% of what they're talking about is not about sex. I turn myself on when I feel alive. I turn myself on when I feel worthy of being desired, when I feel desirable. I turn myself on when I like who I am, when I'm with you. And that notion that desire is the one aspect of sex that you can't force. You can force people to have sex, you can't force them to want it, but in order to want it, it needs to be worth wanting.

Now, let's talk about desire for you.

First off, a lot of people say you turn me off and you turn me on, but you're empowering people to say no. I. It's a decision, it's a choice. Like, when am I the most turned on? When am I the most turned off? And I bet you it's really easy for a lot of people to answer, what turns them off then actually, what turns them on? And then that gets into. Because you work a lot on eroticism and sexuality as well. And I think they're different. You know, eroticism and feeling desire and feeling like, understanding. You know, you always talk about erotic intelligence, right? It's a place, you say, sex isn't something we do. It's a place we go, I'm interested.

In the erotic dimension of sex, the poetics, the meaning of it, not what you do. The same gesture in sex can be ultimately pleasurable and soothing and, and fun. And it can be utterly, you know, cringing. It's the same gesture. It's not this gesture versus that. It's the context where you're at with yourself and with the other that will determine if this becomes a source of connection or a source of hurt. That's the important thing to understand with sex. So what I'm dealing with is the energy, I distinguish it, the curiosity, the way people stay interested, the way people stay motivated, the way people use their imagination, what you think it's like at, at 70, you're not going to see the same thing that you see at 25. But you may be so much more confident that it actually gets better. Sex gets better with age. It gets better when people are more confident and more self accepting.

Yes.

It doesn't have to do with the size of their pants. So to talk about eroticism was a way to liberate the conversation from all the mischief, guided and miscommunicated myths that surround the conversation about sex. I said, okay, let's. Eroticism is about imagination, not about the 20 positions that you can come up with.

Right.

Or whatever.

So when you have couples, for example, do this, like, what turns me off, what turns me on? It's, that's the way of them getting into their own, like understanding about it, that maybe the same sex that could feel good once they realize that, oh, I'm, I am turning myself off because. But once you get, I found once I'm turned on, I'm open for whatever if I'm really in that space. But it takes work. It's at arousal.

And if you're not turned on, and I'm not talking just arousal, I'm talking available, open, willing. If you're not willing, your partner can do all the things that you typically like. There's going to be nobody at the reception desk. So it's not what the other person does. The other person can follow your, you know, prescriptions, but if you're not into it that day, that moment, nothing's going to happen, I mean, unless you force yourself, but it's not going to be willing. The difference in talking about sex versus eroticism is talking about pleasure versus performance.

Effy, say more of that about that because I'd love to dive into, to pleasure. How do we look at pleasure as something that we deserve?

Pleasure is not orgasm. First of all, pleasure Is the way you talk to me, the way I look at you, the way your hand hovers around me without even touching me. Pleasure is the attention that you give to me. Pleasure is your willingness to go as slow as I want to go, or that, you know, pleasure is the way we're gazing at each other. Pleasure is not about outcome. It's really not about, you know, how was the sex? We did it and it worked, you know, and I'm like, this is pragmatism applied to eroticism. That doesn't really. So pleasure is not about, you know, getting this thing done. It can happen without any of the trappings of what we consider a sexual act. Pleasure is linked to self worth because it's about, do I deserve to feel good? And in order to feel deserving of feeling good, of being given to, of being pleasured, of having someone pay attention to me, of feeling safe, that they're not going to hurt me, etc. Etc. And Vice versa.

It demands that I feel lovable and desirable. And so pleasure is directly connected to self worth. Good sex is directly connected to self worth. Can I ask for what I want? Can I take the time that I need to take? Can I expect that you would want to do something that maybe is not in your preferences, but you're doing it for me? You know, I love to work around sexuality with a vocabulary of key verbs. Like every time you learn a language, you need to learn the key verbs. Sexuality is a language that demands the keywords. How do you deal with asking? How comfortable are you to ask, how comfortable are you with the asks of partners? Not just a stable partner, any partners. How do you deal with giving? Do you enjoy giving? Do you find giving is just, you know, something you need to get through? It's a responsibility, it's a burden. How do you feel about receiving? Do you feel like the passivity of receiving? Do you only feel that you can receive after you've given because you've earned it? You know, how do you deal with sharing? How do you deal with refusing? Can you say no? Because if you can't say no, you can't really say yes. How is your experience around these verbs when it comes to your sexual encounters? Yes, you learn a lot.

How do we retrain the brain to understand that pleasure is our birthright and not just a reward? Like, I think there's so much about sex and eroticism that we just think we don't deserve it.

So the way I work with it is very experientially and I don't Just retrain the brain. I retrain the physical experience, the embodied experience, which then will send messages to the brain. So I work a lot with water. What is your preferred temperature of the water? I want you to send in the shower with the perfect temperature for you. And then I want you to notice what is the place on your body where you enjoy it the most. Is it the nape of your neck? Is it the back? Is it your head? You know, is it your shoulder? Is it the front? You know? And then I want you to just stay under the shower and for as long as you can notice, notice the soothing, pleasurable quality of that water. And if at some point you begin to think, oh, I should turn, I should move, I should wash, I should finish, see if you can extend it just another 30 seconds. You see, you can do it alone, you can do it with the partner watching. These are all metaphor transposed metaphors of experiences around pleasure. Imagine that you're eating and your partner is just watching and you're pleasing yourself. Find the thing you like the most. I work with food a lot. I work with fruits, I work with water, I work with fabric, with clothes.

That you experience on your body. I work with touch. Do you want hovering touch? This is from the work of Jaya. Do you want gentle touch? Do you want straight touch? Or do you want stipple touch? There's a beautiful exercise, another one that is really the difference between giving touch and taking touch. So the giving touch, I give touch to you. I stroke your hand and I am thinking of you and my mind is completely focused on you. This is a great retrain exercise. And then there is the taking touch, which is now I continue to stroke your hand, but this time I'm focused on me. It's how I enjoy. It's the contact of my hand. And you can see people completely change the way they touch. Now I am using your hand for my pleasure and I am taking touch. And now I go back to thinking about you. And now I am giving touch. And the distinction that the pleasure of giving is a different kind than the pleasure of taking.

Yes. I remember I was with a guy and he would touch me, he'd come up. It's like you were saying he would do this thing. And I was like, that might feel good to you, but what we're saying is like really sometimes just taking sex off the table and practice one of these. Touching for my pleasure. Touching for your pleasure. Yeah.

Do you want to know a little secret of mine? Can I take your hand and guide it in the way that really unlocks it for me. Can I show you? And then you literally take the hand and you make, you know, this, this spot. And actually if you do it in circles, that's my thing. My thing is circles. You know, other people, it's a straight line. Other people, it's a little, you know, stifled line. Remember that one? It's really a key for me. And it's like everybody can share their little sensual secrets like that with a lover where they are not being critical. They're really saying, here is the way to get to me.

We're wrapping up things with Tom Bilyeu, who gets real about his relationship with his wife, Lisa Bilyeu, and why desiring other people isn't something we necessarily need to be afraid of and how to age well together.

I'm either never getting married or I'm marrying this woman. She is the only woman I've ever said I love you to. Like, it's like a whole thing. So we get together and I'm like, look, I want to be married to you. And that's going to be that. And this is going to take work. And so that was so self evident to me that like it won't happen by accident. Neurochemistry changes over time. So I think by then a study had come out that showed that if you take someone who's just done a bump of cocaine and put them in an FMRI machine and take someone who thinks about their newly found lover and you can't tell the difference on a brain scan, it's all dopamine, it's the reward centers, it's craving, it's like all this crazy shit. And I thought, okay, so I know that ends. Nobody stays there. And if you're the kind of person that just needs that high, that next high, just like a drug addict. But you know, sex or love is your drug addiction.

Yeah.

So I was like, all right, let us not fall prey to that. So I have this whole belief that if something is predictable, then you should be able to avoid the negative consequences of it. So it was just so predictable that our relationship would change over time. So we talked a lot about like, how do you grow together, how do you age well together? And so I was like, look, women are prized for their beauty. So let me just tell you right here and now, one day you're gonna be ugly, you're gonna be fucking wrinkles and skin and bone. And that is the truth of where you're headed. And I was like, how old were.

You at this point? When you had this conversation with her. See, look at this. That's amazing that you had that just from two things, from true thinking.

Read. People don't read read. Like literally every secret you've ever wanted to know has been written in a book. These days it's in a YouTube video. People just need to drink in the information. So it's all out there. So it just comes down to what.

You, Young Tom at 24 says you might not. Okay.

Now, Tom was also stupid at 24, so let's not get too clappy here.

No, okay, I get it.

I was full of moronic behavior. But just in this one, I definitely set myself up well. So we communicated a lot. And I said, look, I want you to understand there's like a very predictable cycle that people go on. Men become successful and as their partner ages, they become less attractive and so they end up splitting. The guys become more valuable over time. And based on traditional standards of what people are valued for, men are valued for access to resources. Women are valued for beauty. So I'm like, we are on like opposite paths. I'm going to grow more valuable to the average woman and you're going to grow less valuable to the average man. So what I need you to understand is I don't prize that. What I prize in you is a shared life. There's no way to do that. It's the only thing that can be. It has to be done in real time. You can't short circuit that. So I'm telling you right now, not only do I love you, not only am I on fire for you sexually, but. And I respect you, but I am committed to you. And so it's that commitment that gives us a bond. And that shit is like fire, man. That's how a relationship ages well. Because like you're just, you're raw, you're vulnerable, you open yourself up completely. And you say, even though I understand the neurochemistry, I will always find. Have you seen those? The who women find attractive Age group. Women find attractive. The age group men find attractive.

Yeah.

This is so crazy.

Yeah.

For people that have never seen this before.

Yeah.

I want you to understand. Women find guys attractive that are within two years of their age, no matter where they're at. Okay. So if they're 40, then they find a guy from like 38 to 42 attractive. So there's like that four year window for a guy. It is always, no matter what age they are, it's always 22.

Right.

I was like, that's fucking crazy. Like, as a Woman, that shit would be terrifying, right?

So I was like now we're all terrified now. Thanks for reminding us all.

Here is what you want driving the.

Cars off the road, you need to.

Have a conversation because if you can predict it and discuss it, then you can avoid the stupidity of it. So I just said, look, I will always find a 22 year old attractive but I'm going to share a life with you. And so I don't want you to be paranoid that you're going to age. Now look, she's 40 and fucking hot as hell, but she's going to be 80 one day and barring some like magical breakthrough, she will be wrinkly as the day is long. So I just, I needed her to know. The thing that is intoxicating to me is a shared experience to share this life with someone.

That's your okay, so this is the thing because I would love every single person listening to men going yes, it's not about beauty anymore. It's about. Because what you're talking about is shared experiences but also just communication, connection, having a plan, discussing your values, making sure you're just being yeah. Treating each other really well, learning how to fight, you know, smart, communicate well. So many people are not well. That's why, you know, I will always have a job here. Like people just don't know and they're like oh well that 22 year old looks great because my wife and I have never communicated about these things ever. And she's, you know that they just don't even have what you're saying. So I feel like I would love that to get into the mind of people but they're thinking like, but every woman's attractive. I actually don't even.

How could they get. Just seems impossible to tell people you can't you that you will choose that over beauty, that you will choose longevity. Like I would love that. How could. What kind of campaign?

Very easy one ready. You can always trust people to be selfish. So if you want to be a good partner, then you want to make that person feel better about themselves when they're around you than when they're not. And let me tell you, people will be true to that. It does not matter like how hot the next person is. It's like if all they have to offer is carnal experience. And look, there are going to be some people that they just haven't done the work to get beyond that. And so they're stuck, stuck in sort of that loop of it's a drug like loop. So you have to be good enough to recognize when somebody's stuck there. But, like, if the way that Lisa makes me feel is supported, is loved, like I'm fucking seen in like the Avatar way. Like, I see you, motherfucker. I know your weaknesses. I know the things that you're insecure about. And I'm here for you. I'm with you. And I'm not with you because you've pulled the wool over my eyes. I've seen you at your worst and I'm still here. Like that shit.

That's what we all want. I think we're all nodding in here. But what I have to say is what I would love, Tom, and I guess this is what you do with all the really impressive body of work that you've created in the last few years with impact theory, is that like what I want is for people to. Because like you just said, a lot of people don't do the work. I'm wondering, like, I would. I want Tom, just like you to go talk to men about this stuff because like, how do you get them there? Like, what would be the hook? Because I'm saying go to therapy. Feel your feelings. Things are blocked. But how do you get men? Like, is it the mindset that you guys talk about? Because you talk a lot about that in your show and that is kind of self improvement. I kind of like the way you say that. Maybe growth mindset is better than being like, go to therapy. Go to Tom's university. What? Because do you know these guys?

Of course.

Right.

And I.

Are you just hanging out with them? The people who are more.

I mean, look, sure, of course I attract a certain kind of person, so my friends are not going to be the more typically.

But you know, I'm talking.

Of course, but. So here's the bad news. I'm taken a lot of flack for this because I'm so fucking cavalier about it. But the reality is you cannot want it for somebody if they're not going to do the work that's on them. Do not waste your time and energy trying to convince somebody who has no interest in being convinced so they'll never get there.

Like they.

It maybe like they might get there.

On their own, but not because we asked them to.

A hundred percent like it. Look, I'm willing to accept that we can literally do anything that doesn't violate the laws of physics. But some things are going to take so much time and energy. You have to ask, why am I investing that much time and energy into doing that? Like, for instance, if we really had to change a guy. Have you ever seen the movie the Game?

Yeah.

Okay. And they do this elaborate hoax that goes on for like a year or something, and they finally get this guy to essentially commit suicide, Right? But they save him with an airbag, and it's like, oh, you finally learned your lesson. So you could go to those extremes and maybe it would work, but it's like, God, is it really worth it? So I get it that this is, like, me at my most typically masculine. I'm just like, I don't have time.

For that shit, Right?

Like, if somebody's not willing to do the work that's on.

Well, that's. Well, that's it. So. Because I was thinking when I started asking about when you said that you were, like, weaker and emotionally, you weren't as evolved. It sounds to me like you pretty much. It was more about the confidence stuff or working on mindset, but you always had sort of an emotional compass.

Yeah, well, how about I use different language?

I have always been very in touch with my feminine side. And when you don't understand masculine energy and feminine energy and what's attractive.

Then you find yourself in trouble. Because I have had some ridiculous missed opportunities because I was not approaching it with confidence. I was being feminine and more withdrawn and like, oh, God, it literally is making me cringe inside to even talk about this right now. So it's like to. To do that, set me up to be. To have a skill set that was very powerful as a husband, but I could never get to that stage without first realizing. No, you have to, like, toughen the fuck up. You've gotta, like, get strong and centered and you've gotta be able to step into confidence and all of that. And then it was like, whoa, I could actually attract women. That was like a game changer for me.

You can find more about Esther Perel@estherperrell.com or by following her @estherperrell official on Instagram. Find more johnwinland.com or on Instagram on Weinland. Tom Bilyeu is the founder of Quest Nutrition and Impact Theory. Find more about tom@impacttheory.com and on Instagram and Twitter ombilyeu. That's our show, and I really hope you enjoyed this Best of Special part two. So if you didn't hear part one, go check that out and just remember this. Like everything else in life, our sex lives are fluid. They're constantly changing from decade to decade, year to year, sometimes day to day. What feels really boring today and isn't A turn on might really excite you tomorrow. So just remember, take time to play and have fun with your partner. Make sure you both have a growth mindset around sex. You're both willing to talk about it and try different things and see what turns you both on. And remember to always have really honest, truthful, authentic conversations with each other.

That's it for today's episode. See you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or part partner. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Sex with Emily oh, I've been told I give really good email, so sign up at sex with emily.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. If you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating or relationships, call my hotline 559-TALK SEX. That's 559-82559.

Or go to sexwithemily.com askemily Special thanks to Acast for powering the Sex with Emily podcast. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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