Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex w/ Ian Kerner

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If I ask most heterosexual couples, well, how long did it take you to get to intercourse? Most of my couples will say 2 minute, 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minutes. So the sex script is so dominated by this one behavior. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. I'm so excited because renowned sex and relationship therapist and best selling Author Ian Kerner, Ph.D. joins me to talk about cliteracy, Female pleasure, his legendary book she Comes first and his brand new book, so tell me about the last time you had sex. Everything he's learned in 20 plus years as a practicing sex therapist. He describes that you could decode and rewrite your relationship's sex script. Yes, we all have them. And how doing so will transform your sex life. We discussed the importance of psychological arousal, what happens to your body during the honeymoon phase, and how to get into the flow state during sex. We also share the effects of porn, solutions for mismatched sex drives, how to be more intentional sexually, and the inner workings of kink dynamics. All right, Intentions with Emily for each episode, join me in setting an intention for the show. I encourage you to do this. I do it. Let's do it together. So when you're listening, what do you want to get out of this episode? How could it help you? Well, my intention was to give you a whole new perspective and how to approach sex with your partner so. So you can avoid getting into a rut and making sure you're both speaking the same sex language. All right, if you have a question you want me to answer on the show, just go to sexwithemily.com askemily. It's the easiest way to do it, and all I need from you is to include your name, your gender identity, your location, your age, and how you listen to the show. And yes, I'm cool if you change your name. Oh, and stay tuned. I have so missed talking to all of you live. So first we're going to be setting up a Sex with Emily hotline so you can call and leave me a voicemail and then look for news for some times that you'll be able to call in and talk to me, because I miss you. Remember, you can find me on all social media. Sex with Emily. All right, everybody, enjoy the show.

My guest is an exciting one for me. He was on the show a few years ago, and today Dr. Ian Kerner is here to talk about his latest book. He's a sex and couples therapist and the author of numerous books, including the the infamous she Comes first, which has been translated in more than a dozen languages, and his new book, so tell me about the last time you had sex. He's helped so many couples for more than 20 years. As a practicing therapist, I really admire Ian and I love all of his books. You can find more about Ian on Twitter Anker and Instagram Ian Kerner. LMFT. Tell me about your new book. So tell me about the last time you had sex, Emily.

It's great to be here and to be talking to you. And, you know, I've been doing sex therapy a long time now, and sometimes I feel like I'm like a dentist because people wait really too long to come and they're often in pain, you know, like. So the thing is, you know, people come in kind of hopeless and I really want to help them in that first session. So I kind of over the years have developed What I call kind of like a sex in action methodology, you know, where I kind of, I, I learn about the problem. I sort of look at it at the big, from the big picture perspective. I walk around it and then in every first session, I will ask a couple. So tell me about the last time you had sex. And I do that because I believe that every sexual event tells a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. There's a sequence of interactions that are of course physical, but they're also emotional, they're psychological. And you put them together and that creates what I call a sex script. And I believe that most couples, especially ones that start to settle into long term relationships, kind of have a sex script. And if it works, they're not coming to see me. And if it doesn't work, they are coming to see me. And there's something about the sex script that's reinforcing the problem that they're having. Okay, so I literally want to help couples rewrite their sex scripts away from the problem and towards pleasure.

Okay, so let's talk about this sex script, which you spend a lot of time unpacking in the book, chapter by chapter, with homework assignments in every chapter that really just, I mean, couples can take this at their own pace. I mean, they might find that just even in the first chapter, they stay there for a while after those homework assignments or the second chapter. Cause you give it, you give so much in this book. Like, I could just feel so much of yourself and so much of your years of doing this work. So, so let's talk about the sex script. How would you explain that? And also, is there a common sex script?

Interestingly, about 90 to 100% of my heterosexual couples, if I ask them, tell me about the last time you had sex. And I'm not using this like, oh, we're rewriting a sex script. Like, that's sort of what's in my head. I'm just asking them to tell me about the last time they had sex. Half the time they don't even remember they're arguing about when they had sex. They can't even agree on it. But with heterosexual couples especially, I would say 90% to 100% either had intercourse in their last sex script or wanted to have intercourse and failed to. And if I ask most heterosexual couples, well, how long did it take you to get to intercourse? Most of my couples will say 2 minute, 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes. If we're getting to 7 minutes, we're already getting extended. I'm not kidding you.

I mean, I know I, you know, so.

So the sex script is so dominated by this one behavior. Now here's an interesting question because there was actually a study done and they literally asked 25,000 gay and bisexual men to tell them about their most recent sexual event. So that's like perfect. That's exactly what I do. So people love to say that gay men are like straight men, right? We have like the same appetites, the same desires. It's just for different sexed person. So let me ask you, Emily, what percentage of gay men do you think had intercourse the last time they had sex? For heterosexuals, it's 90%.

Ooh, intercourse. So penetration. I would say penetrative.

Not. Not Penis and vagina, penis and anus. And anus.

It's not as many. I would say maybe 60%.

You know, that's what I would have said. Honestly, if you ask me the question, the actual answer is 35%.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

So according to the study of 25,000 gay and bisexual men conducted out of Indiana University, only 35% had intercourse the last time they had sex. So what were the other 65% doing? So they were engaging in 12 behaviors that are really very common behaviors. Kissing, hugging, manual stimulation of the genitals, oral stimulation of the genitals, oral stimulation of the anus, rubbing of genitals. Things that everyone does. But here's the amazing thing. Those 12 behaviors were put together in 1300 different combinations, right? That's 1300. Is this like, I hope people are understanding what I mean by sex script, right? It's the combinations of what behaviors, right? So there you have 65% of gay men engaging in non intercourse based sex and having sex scripts, having 1300 different sex scripts compared to, let's say, 95% of heterosexual couples who are having intercourse. We know about the orgasm gap, very few behaviors, because we know how quickly they're getting to intercourse. So that kind of gets you the feeling of what I'm starting to talk about, about like thinking about our sex scripts.

I decided to come back in my next life as a gay man. What I love about your book is that you don't center on penetration. You do not center it on penis goes into vagina, and that is sex, which forever. You know, I think a lot of people in our field are trying to expand the definition of sex into what if you just kiss one night? What if it's just oral sex? What if it's mutual masturbation? All of that can count as your last time you had sex. However, what you're finding is, and this is the couples that I hear from mostly, too, there's no warmup, there's no foreplay. It goes right to penetration. Just to get it over and check it off the list. And there's probably not as much satisfaction in that.

Absolutely.

And they can choose from those 12 acts. We could still choose from those acts, but we don't.

Right. Choose from those 12 behaviors. Studies also show that the more behaviors you put together, the more likely people are to experience pleasure and orgasm. So create your own personalized, idiosyncratic sex scripts that work for you. Like, why does this one behavior of penis and vagina for heterosexual couples have to dominate and overshadow sort of the way we have sex when a we know it's the sexual behavior that contributes most to the orgasm gap. Right. That's obvious. Like a penis and a vagina just doesn't really stimulate the clitoris very much. And I deal with so many cases of performance anxiety that are all centered around intercourse. So one of the reasons so many men that I work with focus so much on intercourse, it's because they're like, holy shit, I have an erection. I gotta do this thing right now.

Where do I stick it in? What do I do that I have to stick it in? I guess that's what it is. I never really thought about that way. I think that. And they also believe then that not only do I not have other options really, but that's gonna be the most satisfying option because maybe it has been up until now. So what we're saying is the elements of the sex script, there's way more than 12 acts, right? Did you find that or are there comm. Common?

Let's just say for now that there's 12 sort of common behaviors. There's going to be more behaviors. Now then the question is, there's two questions. One, how should those behaviors be organized? Right. Because you could have a certain behavior that's sequenced in the wrong way. Right. A lot of women will complain to me, you know, like, I don't mind oral sex, giving, receiving, but like, for it to be the first thing, it's like, that just doesn't feel good.

Right.

You know, it could be a great activity, but it's potentially at the wrong time.

Right.

The other thing that I think that is really important to the book is that I don't think that sex scripts should simply be reduced to behaviors. I think that that is the problem. So often, even for couples who have working sex scripts, they're living so much in the physical domain and not in the psychological or the erotic domain. So it's like once, you know, sort of maybe what the physical sequence of your sex script can be, how do you make that really erotically alive?

So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the psychological. Because we always say the brain is the largest sex organ. How do we get our brain on board? What are some of those psychological? So, sorry, you start with the sex script and you figure out the acts that feel good. Because that's sort of. Are you saying that's the basis where we understand. We're like, okay, I really like to sing. I like massage, I like oral. I like using a finger here. But how do you get your brain on board? And this is where we get into desire.

So one element that I didn't describe, which I should have said is like, when I'm asking a couple about their sex script, I'm really guiding them. I'm saying, so how did you initiate? Who initiate? How did you end up. Of all the things in the world you could have been doing, how did you end up having sex? Oh, okay, great. Someone initiated. And, well, how did you begin to cultivate arousal? Like, did you do undress yourselves? Do you undress each other? Like, what happens? Is it interesting? And then, well, how do you get going? How do you get absorbed in this sex? Like, are you present? Are you distracted? How do you get focused? And then, wow, how are you building up that momentum towards, you know, orgasm? Is orgasm important? Are they happening both at the same time, one after the other, not happening at all? What happens after the orgasm? Do you connect? Are you staying there? Are you reaching through the iPhone and then home? What happens in between sexual events? Is there, like an erotic thread? Does eroticism stay alive? So I am, like, hearing all of this and I'm getting data back, and a couple might say, you know what? We don't even initiate. If sex happens, it's just because one of us feels obligated or.

We get going but he loses his erection, or I'm never really into it, you know? So, Emily, I'm listening for all of the problems in the sex script, but I'm listening for the first problem, because that's the first problem that I can target and I can give them homework and then they can come back and we can work our way through every element of rewriting the sex script.

That's so good. So if they say to you, I'm just not in the mood, and he loses his direction, so how do you start talking to them about arousal then getting actually being in the mood for it, not just going through the motions?

Absolutely. We're talking in this phase, we're talking about arousal, we're talking about absorption. Right? Just getting absorbed in the moment, just getting present. And then I will often ask a couple, you know, they'll tell me the activities that they're engaging in and I'll learn that they'd like to more foreplay or, you know, it's so interesting because history will come up too. Like one woman will say like, well, no, I don't let him touch my vagina or go down on me because When I was 15 I had a case of bacterial vaginosis and someone told me my vagina smelled. And now that's a no, you know, so I'm also getting like interesting history. I'll get a sense of kind of the physical behaviors. But then I'll ask them, I always ask them, and I'll say, so what kind of like psychological arousal do you generate? And it's kind of like a leading question because you know that everyone's going to say, what are you talking about?

Exactly, Right? Yeah, they're like, none.

But what, yeah, what do you mean psychological arousal? And I'll say, well, listen, we know for a fact that there are women who can fantasize their way to orgasm. I know for a fact when I'm working with men who have erectile unpredictability and I want to give them a homework assignment, I'll sometimes say, hey, next time you're putting on some really hot porn, I want you to wait five minutes before you touch your penis and tell me what happens. And those guys will come back and say, hey, I had a pretty decent erection. And once I did touch it, I was really had a good erection. So that's the power of psychological arousal. It's hands free. What are you doing? That's hands free. That's touch free to generate arousal. And why are you doing this with yourself and not with your partner?

Because we're never taught. We're never taught anything about this at all. We don't understand it. We just go towards sex because it's pleasurable until it's not. Right? It's exactly because I think this happens in most relationships. I really do. I mean, after a while, after the honeymoon phase is over.

The honeymoon phase is amazing because, you know, A, we got a nice little neurochemical cocktail backing us up and B, there's so much excitement just in not knowing somebody and wanting to learn about somebody, you know.

So it's all new, it's all exciting.

It'S all new, it's all exciting. So you know what I. You know what I love, Emily, is that once I explain it in these terms, every couple I meet is says, we want more of that. We want that. We're ready for that. We don't have it. How do we get it?

Okay, right.

That's the million dollar question.

That is the million dollar question.

So I think complicated questions really have simple answers. You know, I really do believe that. So I think it's important to engage in what I call the cultivation of psychogenic stimulation. That's the clinical term. And I think that there's two ways of doing that. I think it can be face to face, and I think it can be side by side and by face to face. You know what I mean by face to face, Emily? You watch two little kids or three little kids, five or six year olds, playing in a playground. They're making something up. They have no props, except maybe a twig to be a gun or who knows what, or a jungle gym to be a castle. With nothing but their imaginations, they're actually creating worlds and characters that have power structures that if we played the same games as adults, adults, they'd be really hot. They'd be really charged, you know, so face to face psychogenic stimulation is being able to not just pull out a vibrator, not just grab a set of handcuffs. It's really being able to reach into your own psyche and begin to share something that turns you on. And it's crazy to me that so many of us either can't do that or won't do that, think we shouldn't need to do that, or believe they don't even have those fantasies or don't know that.

Right? Yeah, well, we don't. I mean, this is what we hear all day, every day. People think, well, I hear what you're saying, Emily. We should talk about our fantasies or we should role play. But that's just awkward. We've been together forever. Like, they're gonna laugh. Like, yeah, it's all those reasons. I can't, I won't. I have, I don't have any fantasies.

But I agree, but. So I'll sit down with that couple and I'll say, but listen, we've agreed that you need psychogenic stimulation. And I sometimes say, you know, we need a different on road into arousal, or we need like a different on ramp, or we need an arousal Runway. Those two terms, like an arousal Runway and an on ramp. People kind of like relate to those terms, you know.

Great one.

And I'll say then, you know, I think that we gotta do some side by side psychological arousal. And that's really simple. I just want you to take in together some sexy media. I don't care if it's reading erotic literature aloud. I don't care if it's listening to an erotica podcast. I don't care if it's listening to audio porn. I don't care if it's watching ethical porn, which is always interesting because everyone will then say ethical porn. And then that gets me to give them a whole nother speech.

Exactly.

And deconstruct their ideas about porn. But like I said, complicated issues have simple answers. Yeah. Then taking something really sexy together with the shared aim of letting it get you aroused, maybe get into a little mutual masturbation, you know, while it's happening.

You know, like let's say somebody says, yeah, but porn is wrong, or it makes me feel bad, or I, it's against my beliefs.

Right. First of all, I can try and make it fun. I can try and make it like that version of the Newlywed Game. I can say, I want you to pick erotica or porn that doesn't turn you on necessarily, but you think is going to turn on your partner. And then that always becomes fun. Yeah, that becomes fun. And then I will say, like, listen, I don't really care what you do. Like, look, I grew up old school. I'm a kid of the 70s and 80s. We didn't have the Internet. We had books, we had literature, we had the story of. Oh, we had Emmanuel.

Emmanuel. Yeah, exactly.

So first of all, I will really, people will, most of the time, one or both partners will dismiss porn. And I really just want to explore that as a conversation. I want to say, great, you're definitely not going to watch porn. I just want to know why.

Right.

Because there's a lot in there like, oh, it's objectifying or oh, I'm afraid that that's what he or she is going to think I want to do. Oh, because it's sleazy. Oh, because the actors don't want to be there. And then I can sort of just lightly challenge all of those assumptions. So I do believe I will never push anything. But I always want to challenge people a little bit.

Right.

You know, and then, Emily, the other thing I do is everything. For me, it's like, you know, the book is very structured. Right. And my sessions are very structured. Like I always say, like, listen, I just want to do an experiment. We're just bringing data back. So I don't even want you to have sex. If you go and have sex, that's your own business. But I just want you to do a limited experiment of watching this erotic media together or taking it in. And I just want you to bring me back the data from that. You know, sort of like.

Like what happened?

Yeah, you know, and so then that leads to the second session. You know, some will say, you know what, we really couldn't not have sex. We just had to. We were turned on. Or some will say, like, we actually never did it. We just never got there. And then that becomes interesting, like, why? So I guess what I'm saying is like, the idea of a sex script is really breaking things into smaller units and then just addressing those units with a focus and getting some just interesting experience back from that.

Right. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, I ask Ian how he helped his patients figure out their fantasies.

Like, how do you get them to expand what their fantasies are? Let's say they don't know. Or let's say they're still afraid of talking about it because that's why we have stuff on my site. Like the yes, no, maybe. It's like, I'm always trying to give people suggestions, but how do you. Is there another way that you. You help them have language around it?

Yeah, I have a couple of ways. So what we're talking about now is moving from the side by side to the face to face. Right. We want people bringing their erotic selves into the picture. They've engaged psychologically and they got aroused. Like, look, Emily, this could be a couple that now has a new on road into sex, which always involves watching some ethical porn or reading something or getting turned on. Right. That might be their sweet spot for a little while. But you're talking about something different, which is how do we begin to bring our erotic selves? And I have a few ways of doing that, you know, in every first session. And I give this as a homework assignment in the book. I'll ask a couple. So look, now we know about the problem. We sort of know about the sex script. That's reinforcing the problem. I want to ask you if we work together for not that long, like two or three months, and we meet each other every couple, two or three weeks with the homework in between and let's say, like, what month are we in? Right now we're in like April Mid April. Let's just say by June, not too far away at all, things are actually getting better. I want you to, first off, tell me what does better look like. They're reconstructing the sex script for me. They're saying, like, oh, like, he's going to, like, just come at me with, like, more desire. Like I'm going to really feel. Or I'm going to feel her desire more palpably. Or we're going to really engage in some great oral sex. Or we're going to start to play with, like, some power, something that we've already always wanted to write. So they're going to start to tell me about the solution. Right? So we've moved from problem to solution. My job then is to raise the temperature in the room a little bit, and around that solution, turn it into a fantasy. So, okay, so what does that mean? Like, you want him to desire you a lot more? Do you want him to say something? Do you want him to do something? Yeah, I want him to push me up against the wall and tell me he wants to fuck me. You know, like, wow, okay. Like, that's. That's not something he probably does. Or it's not. The way you talk about putting together the shopping list. Right. So you sort of want to, like. Like want you or hunger for you or almost want you to be objectified in those.

Right.

Sector. Right. So I'm just working with them to build the fantasy. Right.

And then. And then he might say, well, I don't know how to do that. Or that feels weird or how. Right. And then do you give them tools to do it as well?

Yeah, I do. But I feel like the main thing that they need is permission from each other. Like, once they've sort of talked about a little more, like, it's okay to come up to me and just, you know, bite me on the neck. It's permission and it's getting them to get in touch with their erotic self. So sometimes people will come back and say, yeah, I picked out the porn for him. It was a POV of a blowjob. Because I know he loves blowjobs and I hate it. Why is everything a blowjob? Well, that's interesting. Do you like blowjobs? Yeah, I do. He'll say, yeah, I really do like blowtips. Is it simply because it's a lubricated mouth with some friction of a hand against your penis? I mean, that could be just you masturbating, right, with some lube and your hand. No, no, I like it. Because it makes me feel like she totally loves me. Or it makes me feel like I'm totally empowered. Oh, it makes you feel, like, really loved. Or it makes you feel powerful right there. Then we're getting to even a sexual behavior or a body part, it contains an erotic element. It contains an element of fantasy. So when I think. When people think about fantasy, they're getting way too ambitious. They're feeling like I have to be, like, so super creative. Like, I want to be analy probed by my alien husband, flying saucer after coming out of suspended animation.

Like, it can just be next level of the blowjob or what it makes you feel to receive oral. Yeah, it's all. It's all in the feelings. So I'm glad you brought up blowjobs because I hear from so many men and women in heterosexual relationships, the man might say, my partner won't do it. She won't like it. She won't swallow. She will never do it. She's just swears it off. And then I hear from the women who are like, I just don't like it. How can I learn to like it? And I can bet that you, Ian Kerner, have successfully encouraged couples or, like, gotten them to get to the point where they.

I do. I do. Emily. Like, first of all, I want to say, look, you live to be my age, which is actually living to be getting up there in years, right? You deal with, like, so many sexual problems. You realize there are so many paths to pleasure, first of all. So I'm not going to ever. I hate when couples get so hung up on.

I agree. Let it go. Do something else.

There are so many paths to pleasure. The other thing that I really try and do is say anything you do, whether it's a blow job, whether it's intercourse, whether it's a kiss. It can have some kind of psychological meaning. It can be the most loving, romantic kiss. It can be the most passionate kiss that oral sex can come from. Like, look, you can go to any porn site. And oral sex can be done as fem. Dom. Domination. Right? Or it can be done as a mourning, loving act. Like, we're not watching just to see the penis in the mouth. No watching for the psychological context. So I always want to come back to, well, what's the psychological intention behind what you want to convey? It doesn't always have to be the same thing. It can be something different every day, you know?

Right. So what you're saying is, we don't have to force everybody to learn to love blowjobs or going down on their partner. It's like when people want to have a threesome or all the things. It's like, how else can you get that same feeling? What are the other paths to pleasure?

How can you wrap a behavior in like a really nice gift wrapping? That's really a turn on. And listen, you know, once you know something about, you know, human sexual anatomy, right? And you gotta. We, we know, right? Like when a fetus is in the womb, it's not until like seven or eight weeks that it's determined is that fetus gonna become a boy or a girl or, or, or intersex. Most of the time it's going to become a boy or a girl. So it's not like once that's determined, like the material, the tissue goes away. It just gets used in a different way, right? So we all share common tissue, common sexual function. And once you learn some basic principles of stimulating, right? Like once you learn, like, hey, you know, like a penis really responds to friction at the head and the glands, right? And lubrication can help with that friction. And it really responds to pressure at the base. And you can really experiment, experiment with friction and pressure. And it's sort of going to be those two things in combination with some psychological input, some sound, some, some, some emotion. Like, well, then you don't have to, like, swallow, right? You don't have to, like, deep throat. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. In fact, you should do the things that are going to be within your safe space, within your good feeling space. And that can be sexy. And, and I think it's when we don't really understand the principles of something. Like, you know, if you don't understand, you're not clitorate. If you don't understand how a clitoris works, then you're thinking about all these crazy positions and techniques, right? Without thinking about what's fundamentally at the base, you know?

So true. I get so many questions about all these. Oh, we need a new sex position. We're so bored. It's like, it's not about the crazy acrobatic sex positions, but you're so right, Ian. We're so not clitorate. We're not even penis literate, really. So it's not about getting more acrobatic and creative. It's about pinpointing what you know feels good and then working around that in positions. Okay, so, Ian, then do you spend a lot of time, like, I know I always pull out my evolva puppet on every. Like, do you. Do you sit there showing them the clitoris and the penis?

Absolutely. I have shelves of sex toys. I have shelves of books that I'll pull off the wall, I'll give to patients, you know?

Right. Like, take a look at these pictures. Right. Because we just don't know. So that's why you're giving people so much information in this book. And I love that people can kind of create their own cocktail. They can kind of. They could even jump around in the book, too. I mean.

Yeah.

So you talk in the book about the exciters and the inhibitors, the acts that keep us engaged versus, like, what is distracting us from having sex. And I think we have a long list of things that are keeping us from having sex. Right.

Yeah. So. So. So let's broaden out a little bit, because desire issues are probably the main kind of discrepancy that couples deal with, at least from. I don't know. Is that your.

Yes. Desire discrepancy? Absolutely. Mismatched vetoes. One partner wants sex more often than the other.

Absolutely. Or both partners are shut down a little bit. So I really talk a lot in the book. I'm really glad you brought this up, because it's probably as important as the concept of a sex script is figuring out what is your desire framework and what would be a shared desire framework for the two of you. Right. Because. And now this is not my work, obviously. It's standing on the shoulders of Rosemary Besson and Emily Nagoski and the Kinsey Institute and Debbie Herbanick and everyone who's exploring sort of the differences between male and female desire. What I think is the next stage is to recognize that that gender line doesn't really exist, that it's just issues with desire that we all experience. But in the book, I frame it this way. Some of us can metabolize a sexual cue very quickly. Right. We can see something sexy, and it really hits the genitals in an instant. Right. And I sort of describe that to having, like, a fast pass, to getting on, like, an amusement park ride. It's like, I got the fast pass. She looks hot in that towel coming out of the shower. I got a fast pass down to the roller coaster of sex. Right. Like, I'm ready to go. I can process that sexual cue very quickly. So I call that framework sort of a highly reactive desire framework. I'm very reactive to sexual cues. It also gets called a spontaneous desire framework. So that's my framework. Is that my partner's framework? Maybe if that's my partner's framework. Wow. Then we both have a fast pass. Our problem isn't getting on the ride. If they're in my office, it's probably that they went off the track somewhere on that.

Right, right, right, right.

But, but more than likely, if it's a long term relationship, this can be a long term heterosexual relationship. It can be a long term gay or lesbian relationship. More than likely, one partner doesn't have that fast pass. It's not that they don't appreciate a sexual cue. They just. They need more of that. Not only do they need more sexual cues, their desire is not as resistant to the stressors in an environment. It's not as resistant to a context. So, like, right. Like, I'm still at my age, luckily I'm still in the, like, highly reactive framework. Right. Like my desire. There could be a fire in the next room, but I might still really want to make it happen. Is it a big fire? A little.

That's amazing. Right, right, right.

You know, honestly, for my wife, like, and she's got some of that highly reactive desire going because we've. We have an environment that cultivates kind of eroticism. But more than likely, her desire is not as. As resistant to stressors. So she's in what would be called, I call it a more deliberative desire framework. It also gets called a responsive desire framework because we need more sexual cues. And then it comes down to what you talked about, this relationship between exciters and inhibitors. Or like a car, like the accelerator versus the break. Like, what are the things that are turning you on? For me, it's like my wife in the towel. For her, it might be like, my smell. She likes my smell. It's a little bit of my secret weapon. When she's really angry at me, I kind of bring her clothes and I'm like, come on, it's gonna be okay. Trying to get some of that.

So now we're coming back to, like, what's the desire framework? So I'm fast pass, and my wife is like, wait in line. So what does that mean? That means, honestly, Emily, I'm gonna have to wait in line too. Right. If I want to go on the ride alone. If I want to masturbate, great, I can use my fast pass. But if I want someone else to come along on the ride with me, and they don't have a fast pass, well, I have to wait online with that. I have to make it a very pleasant experience. I have to reduce all of the stressors. I Gotta get them a soda, get rid of the heat, whatever.

Exactly. Close the windows, put the kids to a nap, whatever it is. Right. You got to clear everything, clean the house. Okay.

Yeah. And so now we have, like, more of a shared desire framework. And I think it's also important for us to understand each other's desire frameworks, because I hate this so often, like, so I'm in that spontaneous desire framework. And I'll say, well, what's wrong with her? This is the way it's supposed to be. You know? And she's like, yeah, I guess it was that way one time, so maybe it should be that way. I don't know what's wrong. Or from the responsive desire person's perspective, what's wrong with him or her. It's always sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, without any thought to anything else. I think it's so important to understand each other's individual desire frameworks. And then I help them to create a shared framework. And again, it's not. It's not rocket science. It's just new information and new ways of thinking for people.

After the break, Ian tells me what we can all learn from the kink community. Stay tuned.

What I love is that you really help people unpack. Very specifically, like, the nuance of the problem. Because we all get people in our field. We get the same questions right for years. It's the same problems. And yes, you could say, well, buy a vibrator, watch erotica. Go shop. All the things that we say, buy lingerie, have a threesome. But. But you are like, stop there. Like, you are listening and you're helping people really just dissect what's going on step by step by step.

Thank you.

And this is the pattern. Like, I hear the questions, like, if someone calls to my show, I know where they're going, but I can only do so much. And then I'd say, go see Ian. But now I could say, get his book. Because it's really Ian. It's good.

It really, you know, she come. My two loves. Like, I don't think I'm gonna write another book for. I really don't. I want to do other projects, other things. I want to be with patients. I want to be with my family. I want to travel. But, like, the two books that I really think really are my life's work, one is she Comes First. And that really came out of my lived sense of sexuality and my own sense of dysfunction and wanting to, like, break through to just a new way of being and generating pleasure. So that book was really about me. It came out of me. And this book really is about my patients. And it really comes out of the people that I sit with every day and I talk to. There's a lot of case studies in there. It comes out of the work I do with other therapists teaching and supervising. So it was a hard book to write, but it also was easy in that I never doubted what I was writing or had to really. You're right.

This works exactly like, this is exactly the step by step process of what I do with patients. And you have so much in your toolkit. Let's just talk about the foundations of power play. Do you work with couples who say, well, I want my partner to be dominant, submissive and kink? Do you help them sort of figure that out as well? So how do you.

Absolutely. I mean, I take a few things from kink. Like, let me. Before we get into quickly the power play, the thing that I really learned about kink is that when it's done right, both partners go into a flow state. They're really present. I know kink really sounds like it can be all this acting and putting on stuff, but like, there's like really like it's been studied. Like bottoms go into what's called sort of like a sub drop, which is really into a deep state, like a trance like state. Tops go into kind of like an alpha wave kind of flow state. And there's really like a mutual flow state being generated. And I think that's what every couple needs to have happen during sex. Right. You need to get really turned on psychologically. And then you need to kind of shift into a kind of like flow state together where you're just totally present in the moment. So that's one lesson that I just learned from working with people who practice.

Oh, how do we. I love it. You describe that so well in the book about that state that we get into. And that's why people often like power play. Because you are not in your thinking about the laundry and worrying someone's coming, but your body, you're. You're, you're engaging. It's forced engagement. Because a lot of us are not as connected during sex. We're not connected to our partner. We're in our heads, we're disassociating. So it's that flow state.

Everything.

We all want the flow. I want it when I'm writing or when I'm on the show. Actually, I have it when I'm on the show. But in other areas it's. It's just. It's so hard. So do you teach couples this, or. It's more like a theory of.

I do. Yeah, I do. So the. The technical concept for being in a state of flesh flow when you're with another person is called entrainment. Okay. Like when you're pushing someone on a swing, you get into a state of entrainment. When you're throwing a ball with somebody, you get into a state of entrainment. When you're dancing and you're not thinking about the steps, you get into entrainment. When you're a good musician and you're playing, you get entrained. Right. So it's. It's actually a brain state.

It's like getting on the same frequency with someone via something rhythmic. So, you know, like, a lot of artists or writers say they do their best writing when they're walking. Right.

Isn't that interesting?

Not sitting down. They're actually walking.

That's what happens when I walk. I have my best work, best thoughts about the show. Yep.

So there's something about rhythmic entrainment. Right. That gets you into, like, that flow state. It's rhythm combined with either a process with yourself, like, I'm brushing my teeth and I go into a daydream, or with someone else. So the essence of Sex, Emily, is getting into that mutual flow state. It has to happen for both of you.

And you have a great chapter on entrainment. We don't have to give the whole book away, but I think you explained it really, really well there. And even I was thinking going, yes, that's what I want. I want my partner to read this. You know, it's like, I've had it. Or how do you have it more often than not? You can't guarantee that every time you're going to be in entrainment.

No, you can't. But in the book, I just give lots of little exercises that incrementally help you build up. I call it entrainment training, basically. And there's lots of little ways of doing it and getting there. And ultimately. So the ultimate thing about a sex script is you want, like, all the novelty and the eroticism at kind of like the front end. I mean, that's why kink is so powerful, because it gets you both physically and psychologically engaged. Right. So it really cloaks the experience in something psychological. But then you kind of want to go into just that state of flow where you're not thinking. So it's nice to have a script that works because then you kind of encode that routine. Right. Like, it's like if I'm driving the same route every day, I don't have to think about it anymore.

Right.

If suddenly I'm driving a new route, I have to think about it. So when we're having sex at a certain point, we don't want to be thinking about it anymore. We don't want to be searching for that.

What do we do next?

Technique, you know?

Right. So if they know that this is their new kink play, then they have a whole nother field to play in and then it's not getting as rote and bored and, and numbing, I suppose.

Yeah. And I, and I, and I do have a really nice section on kink. And again, it, for me, it comes down to like, too many people mess up with kink because they're just thinking about the props and they're not thinking of the intentionality behind it and why it's a turn on and why power turns them on and where.

This is it. Get started with it. Get inspired. It's going to answer all the questions that people have about this stuff. Right.

I hope. And I tried to do a whole part of the book for people who may be dealing with a problem already in their sex script, like problem with erections or a problem with orgasm or a problem with pain. I don't, I can't go in depth or early ejaculation or arouse. I can't go in depth into everything. But I try to give people, like, workarounds, you know, ways of still getting to pleasure even if they have a problem.

Because you say that. That's the thing is like they have a problem. I always say it's like a sexual challenge. I try not to. Right. But it's like you can work around all of it. None of it's a deal breaker. The size of your penis being. I mean, you know, your work was started on your having. Being a premature ejaculator. Mine was on faking orgasms. I was like, I do not want to fake orgasms. You're like, I don't want to. You just learned that there's other paths. That's all it is, other paths to pleasure.

Right, Right. You just got to get past your own stereotypes and, you know, ski internal schemas around what sex should look like. You know, once I realized sex does not have to look like the way everybody tells me it should look, just. And even that way that it looks leads to what you talked about, the faking part.

You know, you're like, I have an orgasm yet in the movie, in porn. She. She already came. So, Ian, in the year, how many years have you been doing this? 20 plus.

Yeah, about 20.

Okay, so what do you. What has changed as far as the. The challenges that couples are coming in within the last, if any, in 20 years? Anything you've noticed?

You know what? I've noticed a lot. And I think this. We're in a cultural moment, like a lot of heterosexual and gay couples who picked each other as life partners, but they really didn't pick based on sexual attraction. They really didn't. Based on privileging sexual attraction, which is different. I just haven't seen that. I didn't see that as much, you know, at the beginning. And they're really struggling with it. And I really try and get people to think about then, well, if you started monogamously oriented and you're really not sexually happy and you never have been, but you're so good in so many other ways, can't we just start to even deconstruct that script, the monogamy script, the marriage script, even in just little ways? So that. That's something interesting that's coming up. More people with this real existential dilemma, like picking between the relationship or sex. You know.

A lot more men, Emily, in their late teens, 20s, and 30s, struggling with erectile issues that are wholly psychological.

Yeah, well, you know, Ian, I was gonna say it's funny because I see and I want to go back to the erection thing, but first, let's talk about this. So what we're saying is more couples are realizing that monogamy is not for them, and you're helping them perhaps open it up. Right. How do you have the rules? How do you have the contracts? How do you set boundaries in an open relationship?

Yeah, but it's. It's. Again, it's like going back to she Comes first and getting people to challenge intercourse. You're asking them, in this case, to even challenge something that's harder to challenge. Right.

What do they tell the kids? What do they tell their family? Who do you bring? You know, so. But I think that's important. Yeah.

Or living. Live with despair. Right. Just live with despair that you can't take anymore. Right. Because sexuality is such an essential part of life and expression.

And if couples aren't attracted to you at the beginning, like, often they'll say, oh, well, we were never. The sex was never great. Don't you think it's really hard to create it out of nowhere?

I really do. I really do. I Mean, it helps so much if, if that chemistry that, you know, that ineffable thing that I said is so hard to.

You can't just drum it up out of nowhere and then. Can we go back? I want to talk to you about real quickly the erectile dysfunction thing. I've noticed that as well. That more I never really heard from men in their teens and twenties for having erectile dysfunction. But have you seen these studies lately about testosterone, about that the levels in testosterone drops since the 80s and it's because of toxins and because of pollution. What do you think about that as a theory?

Well, I would love. I would love to come and talk about this because it's such an important topic. But I will say this. I think more than anything, it had more than testosterone, more than porn and neural rewiring or whatever people are saying. I think it has to do with increased levels of anxiety.

Huh. Okay. Well, that was my first take. Okay. All right, Ian, thank you so much for being here. I have to ask you the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. So they're quick. Ready? Okay. What is your biggest turn on?

What is my biggest turn on? Oral sex.

Very on brand. Very on brand. Biggest turnoff?

Chicken flannel pajamas.

What makes good sex?

Not me wearing somebody else pajamas.

What makes good sex?

What makes good sex? Being able to turn on erotically and being able to turn off and get into that flow state. Being able to like turn on your sexual self and turn off every other part of yourself.

Something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

Embrace your challenges, embrace your problems. They may even pile up on top of each other. They're always going to come and there is always going to be a workaround. There's always going to be a solution. There are so many paths to pleasure.

Number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex.

It's not just that the brain is the biggest sex organ. It's that we really need to bring our minds into sex and really focus on mind based arousal. Right. Like, I want to be able to give my wife an orgasm just by talking to her, you know?

Yeah.

I wanna, I want us to. To make love with our minds.

I love this. Thank you so much, Ian Carter. And people can find your book. So tell me about the last time you had sex and where else can they find you?

I. Yeah, you come to my website. I always try and keep it up to date with what I'm doing and what I'm thinking about.

Thank you, Ian. Thank you for all of your work. We're excited for this book and thank.

You Emily for all of your work.

That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like subscribe and give us a review. Wherever you listen to podcasts and share this with a friend or a partner, believe me, if you got something out of this episode, they will too. We release two to three episodes a week. Find me at Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. It's all sexwithemily. If you'd like to ask me a question about sex or dating relationships, email me feedbackexwithemily.com or sexwithemily.com askemily and check out my website. We have so many great articles diving deep into topics like how do I have multiple orgasms? How do I last long longer in bed? How do I stop thinking about my ex? What sex toy should I try? And so much more. Sign up for Weekly Emails I've been told I give really good emails. I do. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com there's one overlooked mineral behind better sleep. Sharper focus, stronger muscles and a healthier heart. And at least half of us aren't getting enough. Most people don't realize they're running low on one of the most vital minerals for human health. Magnesium. And here's the thing, no single form of magnesium can deliver all of its benefits. That's exactly why Qualia Magnesium plus was created with 10 highly bioavailable forms of magnesium plus over 70 essential minerals. It provides total magnesium support, helping you sleep better, think clearer, move stronger and feel your best every day. And honestly, when you're less stressed and more energized, your intimacy and desire naturally benefit too. Sure, magnesium can help you sleep, but Qualia Magnesium plus goes beyond that. It's a whole body nourishment for how you think, move, connect and feel. More than just a sleep supplement, it's a foundation for daily well being which absolutely supports a healthier sex life. Getting enough magnesium from food alone is harder than ever due to depleted soils and chronic stress and our body's reduced ability to absorb it as we age. Well, Qualia's Magnesium plus formula is non gmo, vegan, gluten free and designed so all the ingredients work together for comprehensive magnesium support. And personally, I've been taking Qualia Magnesium plus in the evenings and I really noticed calmer nights and clear mornings and just feeling more grounded in my body, which always makes intimacy feel more accessible and enjoyable. It's become such an easy part of my nightly routine experience the most trusted magnesium for your purity, potency and performance. Go to qualia life.comsexwithemily for 50 off. And here's a bonus Use the code Sex with Emily for an additional 15 off your order. That's Q U A L I A life.com sexwithemily thanks for Qualia for sponsoring this episode.