The Deal with Divorce w/ Laura Wasser

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25. You got divorced. Now one of my things, and I've been saying this for years, like I don't think anyone should get married before, I think we barely even know ourselves. And even then, I know a lot of people who still don't. And they're in their late 30s, 40s, so. Exactly.

They shouldn't have gotten married under age 30. I don't know that we could regulate that. I would sure love to see people have more counseling beforehand.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate conversation around sex. You may think of her as divorce attorney to the stars, and Laura Wasser is certainly that. But Laura is also a sharp thinker on marriage and communication and is here to tell us what every couple needs to know before saying I do. She says that couples who have the prenup conversation are actually more likely to stay together than those who don't, and that money is an even bigger conversational taboo than sexual. She also tells us what it's like repping actor clients versus musician clients, why we're seeing a celebrity led trend of gentle separations, and how social media has changed the game for divorce cases. Plus, I take your divorce questions like when is it time to say I don't and get the hell out? Or how about if you're single and have a tendency to hook up with older separated men, are they just your type of or are there some deeper conversations you need to be having with them and maybe with yourself? Let's talk about dating as a divorcee. When is it okay to tell the kids you've met someone new? And finally, after being married for so long, how do you tell the difference between love and lust, especially when you're back on the scene? All this and more on today's divorce show, Intentions with Emily. For each episode, I want to start off by setting an intention. It really works. I encourage you to do the same thing. Well, my intention is to empower you with data about divorce, whether you're married, about to get married, or thinking about marriage in the future. Hey, listen, relationships evolve and that's okay. So for this episode, I'd love to demystify divorce so you can live out your most informed, most fulfilling relationships. Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show and my new article, Ask Emily How Do I have Good Sex during Menopause? And our holiday gift guide is up at sex with emily.com and also check out my YouTube channel for more sex tips and advice. If you want to ask me questions, just call my hotline 559-talk-SEX or 559-825-5739. Leave me your questions or message me sexwithemily.com askemily all right, everyone enjoyed this episode. Foreign.

Attorney Laura Allison Wasser is an author, entrepreneur and family law expert with over 20 years of experience. She's also a guest lecturer at prestigious law schools, the founder of an accessible and affordable online divorce service, it'sovereasy.com and has represented several well known celebrity clients. Find Laura on Instagram at Laura Wasser official and@itsovereasy.com or on Twitter and Instagram. It's over easy. Talk about your own journey a bit. How you got into like why family.

Law and my dad is a family law attorney so I even though I thought I would never follow in his footsteps, in fact I didn't even think I'd be a lawyer. Which is kind of a joke because my parents named me Laura Allison Wasser. My initials are law. I fought it so, so hard until basically I was graduating from college at Cal. And I was like, well, what else am I going to do? Because I'm certainly not going to go to medical school because I didn't have those kind of grades. So I was a rhetoric major in college. I went into law school. I still never thought I would be doing matrimonial law. And I got married the summer before my final year of law school. I had a big wedding in 1993. Gorgeous, whatever. But I was 25 and so was he, and we were clearly too young to be married. So about a year after, while I was waiting for my bar results, I said, okay, this is probably not working. And he's like, yeah, you're probably right. But even as a first year associate filling out those forms by myself, and I'd been to law school and English as my first language, I was like, wow, this is really difficult. Why does it have to be so difficult? And that's why people get lawyers, because it's a totally emotional time. It's so scary. And then you've got all these forms and you don't understand them and you're sure you're going to be doing them wrong. And this is the next chapter. And you have to make sure financially you're covered and your kids are covered. So it's super scary. Anyway, I did that. And in doing that, I did it at my dad's firm. I said, can I work here for a while until I get back on my feet? And I never left because it's a really interesting field of law. Like you said, you get to know all kinds of people. You touch their lives. You get in there for like 6 to 12 months and then you're done. And so all of these people who.

Like, told you everything, everything, like they.

Have to everything about sexual proclivities, cheating, dreams, you know, every financial issue that they have that they would never share with anyone. Hey, I Lisa Porsche, but I really can't afford it. Like, every month I'm scraping to make the payments or whatever is. I know. And then poof, after it's done, they're done. I'll like run into them in a restaurant. We're kind of like, hey, 25, you got divorced.

Now one of my things, and I've been saying this for years, like, I don't think anyone should get married before they're 30. I think we barely even know ourselves. And even then, I know a lot of people who still don't. And they're in their late 30s, 40s, so. Exactly.

They shouldn't have gotten married under age 30, I don't know that we could regulate that. I would sure love to see that.

I can advise it.

People have more counseling beforehand. If you're going to cast your lot with somebody, you need to know yourself maybe a little bit better. But most importantly, you need to know the laws in your state. So many people get married, they don't even realize that, like, in a state like California, that means half of everything you make is going to be hers or his. People don't know that.

Right, exactly. So we're like, we're all like, you know, the early start, the dopamine, the love hormones, we don't care about anything. It's all going to work out because I'm madly in love. But have you found when people are sitting in your office, like, do you feel like there's certain types. You're like, yes. Do you feel when they walk in, you're like, I've got this. And what are some common, like, archetypes, would you say?

Interesting. I feel like most of my actor clients take direction very well. Like, you have to really walk them through it. There's a lot of times that I'll write an email for them that they can then, you know, make a little bit more their own and send. But they definitely want a little bit more direction. I definitely think that my artists, like, my musicians are way more emotional about things. Like, I'll really have to explain things three or four times, and these are broad generalizations, but those guys are the ones that are a little more emotional, and I have to kind of handhold a little bit more for them. And it's interesting. Male, female, I don't necessarily see as many trends, but I definitely see trends in the breadwinners. The breadwinners, whether they're male or female, really want to make a deal because they know that they're paying for everybody. The supported spouse is generally the one that feels like he or she doesn't have much to lose. And we have to explain to them. Yeah, you do, because you are spending money that would otherwise be going to you or your kids on lawyers, fighting over things that you may not care about. It's not just a bottomless pit. So let's have a finite number here and then come to it.

What are just some of the common issues you see? I know it's a really broad question, but, for example, I remember hearing a few years ago that, like, in 8 out of 10 divorce cases right now, Facebook came up in the. In the, you know, in the transcripts.

There'S A lot of social media. I mean, there's a lot of social media and there's a lot of online stuff. I mean, people will find their spouses, you know, having full on online relationships. They've never even met the person. But whatever it is that they are not getting from their marriage, they're kind of putting into the computer to this person out there. People do online dating even when they're married. So that's a lot. But again, I, as you probably would agree, that's not the underlying problem. Back up to what are they missing in their marriage that causes them to, whether it be online or just going to a bar and meeting somebody and hooking up. Where's the disconnect there? And that has, that's age old. And so people probably don't do enough work to figure out how to communicate. And instead of resenting and shoving stuff down, actually talking about it, working through it. And then there's also people just grow apart. If you get married when you're 25, the chances are you're gonna grow up and determine who you are. And it may not be the person that grew with this other person. So I don't know that human beings are really inherently meant to mate for life. I believe we like to be families. I have my family, I have my tribe. I have the two dads to my two kids.

I'm with you. I don't know that we're just a mate for life. I don't see many cases where it actually works. But what we can do is start talking about these things right away in the relationship early on.

Yes.

So how much do you see sex play a role in things? Like they had different sexual proclivities or they weren't having sex. Like, does it come up a lot?

The weren't having sex comes up a lot. I think people that experiment have proclivities. They usually do okay, because they are having some kind of communication, some kind of intimacy. Even when things go horribly, horribly wrong. Oh, let's bring a third person in the relationship. And then they're like, whoa, that did not work out. We did not like how that felt. Or I didn't like how it felt, particularly since you're still sleeping with her or whatever it is. Those are less likely to show up in my office than the ones that go, I don't know what happened, we haven't had sex. I mean. And I will ask as one of the main questions, like what's going on? How many kids? How long have you been married? Are you in therapy? And I say, what's your sex life like? Because so many people will say, not good. We haven't had sex in like two years. And I'm like, what?

Yeah.

Or I can't believe that she's cheating on me. Really? When was the last time you had sex? Like six months ago. Well, what?

Believe it. Where do you think you're going? To go get it right. So is there ever couples that come to you and say, actually the sex is amazing, but we can't get along with anything, anything else, we still want to have sex?

Yes, it's. I mean, it's interesting. Like you said that first meeting, watching. Remember, I don't usually meet with both couples unless I'm doing mediation. I mean, both parties. I'll meet with one or the other. But there are some that will say the sex was never the problem. Sex is fine, that wasn't the problem. But our communication with regard to other things is the problem. And I've had people that I can't get a finite data separation, which is a big deal in California because that's when you actually stop the clock running, when you stop having to split proceeds from projects, when you stop having to have a clock on spousal support because they keep sleeping together. And that's one of the indicators of whether or not a person is a complete, irreconcilable, irremediable break in the marriage. But they're still having sex all the time.

Have you seen couples like, well, we're actually gonna get back together. We're calling this off.

I see people get back together. I see people get back together because that chemistry is so amazing. I see work out other things. Okay, we're not gonna get back together, but we really still like dating or we like hooking up with each other or whatever. It's rare, but it does happen.

Going back to social media for a second, do you think that people are like using it as evidence? Do you have any advice for people like what they shouldn't be doing or what they should be doing?

Well, okay, so we usually at the beginning of every case, we send out a letter saying, you must not erase or delete any of your drives or whatever else. Because a lot of that. And again, California's a no fault state. So it's not about the cheating. It's about like moving the money. We need to see the footprint of where the money went. Usually we'd have people coming in with forensic accounts and huge boxes of documents. Now it's all online, but people will try to delete stuff or get rid of stuff. And I also think that people getting divorced don't realize what it is that's important and not important. I mean, I have so many people say I need a good private investigator. And I'm like, why? I need to see if he's cheating. Why? I mean, if you need to see for your own self, fine. But for me, I don't need to see because California is a no fault state, so it makes no difference. But yeah, I think a lot of people are really not very savvy when it comes to what they're doing. Or if you're having a big dispute about child support. Oh, he really should be paying me more child support and I know that he's able to. Well, how do you know that? Well, I'm on his Instagram page. He's driving a new car. He's in Cabo with his new blonde girlfriend right now. I'm on her Instagram page and she just bought new boobs and she doesn't have any money. So it must have come. So he can't pay child support because he's doing this.

So then what do you do with that?

Well then you can use that for evidence and you can say like, it is evidence.

That sure, like you, it is not the boobs necessarily. You gotta get the boobs back. But right though that makes so much sense. I would think that that would be so much more incriminating evidence that you would not have seen in the past.

You let people into your life when you make it public and so therefore you're open to that kind of examination.

That is, that makes so much sense. Okay. So I always say, and what I believe to be true is that the three main causes of divorce are typically arguments in a relationship are sex and, and kids and money.

I think that makes sense. I think I actually read an article the other day that had like six of them, but those were the three.

Okay, so you see that and would you. Is there anything that you see, like, I know that you're not the therapist, but in sitting in there, that maybe this could have been resolved had they.

I guess it's all about fucking therapy.

Having therapy early on, or communicating, getting good communication. And I always say this to couples like, you should be doing therapy when you're getting along, when things are good, because that will help you get in a rhythm and establish. It's like going to the gym. You want to start going to the gym when you're healthy, then if something happens, you get an injury, whatever. You know how to get back in there and get back into shape. It's the same with this. You learn those tools in therapy to communicate. And for sure, with the sex and the money, one of the reasons people have issues with those two items is that they don't know how to talk about them. Now, I will tell you this. People are more likely to talk about sex than they are about money, particularly women. They will talk about sex. They do not want to talk about money, which I find so strange. You need to talk about these things. This is your spouse.

Right. Why do you think it is money?

Again, it's because that hypothetical wife, she was the princess, and so she was in the castle, and she never had to worry about anything. And her prince would go out and shoot the deer and bring home the food and whatever it was. Come on. That is just not a good way to be. You need to know you can be a princess and so still know what bank accounts are. You know, I have people that come in all the time. Sophisticated, gorgeous women. They have their personal shoppers at Neiman Marcus. They could have a reservation at any restaurant in town. They go to the shows in Paris. And I say, okay, so, you know, how much does your spouse make every year? No idea. How much the mortgage obligation, if any, on your home? No idea. And they say, I'm so embarrassed that I don't know any of this. I said, don't be embarrassed. It must be nice. It's just. It has to be really scary right now.

Yeah. How do we have them just pull off the shield and say, I know you're afraid about walking this money conversation, but it has to happen. It would save us so much.

It also, I feel, would keep people more together. Because if you feel like you have a partner in these financial, you know, good times and bad times, okay. Because again, people go through good and bad. If you have a partner, this is the person whom you lay down to sleep with every night, who you are having intimate sexual relations with, hopefully who you've raised children with, which are generally going to be the most important item in your life. Kids, how to raise them, keeping them happy. Why wouldn't this be the person that you say, hey, we just had a huge windfall this year, or, hey, I'm suffering. Like, I. And I see so many people argue because she's spending too much, and I'm really, really stressed out about it. Well, how is she supposed to know that she's spending too much if you haven't let her in on any of the secrets of what is being Earned.

Right.

And it's community money. It's her money. Every relationship, as you know, is a deal. In every relationship, both people have things that they bring to the table that will change in the course of relationships, but that's the relationship. So you see these stereotypical older, wealthy, Hollywood guy, not super attractive, young, trophy. What? They have a deal. That's the deal. And if she does put on a hundred pounds or he does lose all his money, it's not saying it's gonna end, but the deal changes.

It does change. What are the things that people should just figure out about each other before they walk down the aisle? Like, what should we know?

I don't believe that everyone should have a prenup, but I believe that everyone should have a prenup conversation. But when you get married, you are entering into a contract. You may not know the terms because you don't know what the law is in your state, which baffles my mind. Know the law in your state. But then the other thing, so you know, without a prenup, everything that you earn, or if you're a painter and you paint a painting after you're married, that painting is half your spouse's. If you earn money, any of those things, but for what you inherit or is gifted to you, that's going to be community property. In a state like California, you also are going to be responsible for paying spousal support to that person so that they can live in the lifestyle to which they became accustomed during the marriage for a certain period of time. And child support. Okay, so now we know that if you don't have a prenup, that's the rules. What other rules do you need to know? Hey, my parents are older, and I never want to put them in assisted living, so they're probably going to live with us when we get. When they get older. Are you okay with that? Hey, it's really important that my kids go to private school. I don't want them going to public school. Are you okay with that? Hey, I want to make sure that you know that I'm probably not going to go back to work after I have kids. I just don't want to. I can't imagine being a working mom. I want to stay home. And again, it'll change. You may actually have kids and go, get me the fuck out of here. I got to get back to work. Having those conversations, those are things you should know. How much debt is there? People get married when you have a prenup. You have to disclose everything. So you know people get married 10 years, in you go. Oh, by the way, I've been using my community money this whole time to pay down my law school debt. Nobody knew. And I'm telling you that the prenups I've done, even the really difficult ones, those people have stayed together. They may not like what they're hearing, and it may take the bloom off the rose a little bit, but by the time they get married, they have some truths that I think help them throughout their marriage. There's not any huge surprises. And there've been a couple where once you get into the weeds, they go, you know what? I don't like what I'm seeing here, and we're not going to get married.

That's what I would think. I think it would be that one next step. Like, we. I just think it's way too easy to get married, too. So why not have this. This prenup? Maybe even. Maybe we have to rebrand the name prenup, but just something about. Because, you know, like, in certain religions, like, there's a counselor, like in the church that can sit down and they have to go for eight weeks. Like, there should be certain protocols that are required before you walk down the aisle. And I love that you're just asking those tough questions. So with sex, do you ever find. I don't know if they get in this to you. Have you ever found that there's something like somebody's got way into kink, like got way into BDSM or something else, and they're like, I am not. This is not my jam.

Yeah, that has been an issue. And then. Then he or she goes elsewhere. Now that's a question. Can I put up with that if I don't want to do this, but my spouse really does, and he or she is not having a. An emotional attachment, but, you know, once a week they go to the dominatrix, and that's really important and whatever. Sometimes they make it work.

I know a lot of couples who have made that work. And I feel like it's just getting past that fear that this belief that we have that sex is supposed to be monogamous as one person for the rest of your life. For a lot of people, it's okay to say, once a week, my partner's gonna go to dominatrix, and I'm gonna go get a massage or happy ending.

And.

And it seems so crazy to people, but how much better is it to get your needs met and then you still can come home with your. Your partner?

And also, if you Think about it. A lot of this comes from the forbiddenness of it. So if what it is. Aster Perel did a whole thing on, like, when you're lying to your partner, there's something about it that, like, feels good to you or whatever. I said to my boyfriend very early on, because it's true. I don't care at all if you go to strip clubs. It doesn't, like, offend me or bother me. And I also don't care if you go and get a happy ending at any point. And he goes, you totally ruined it for me. I never want to do those things. And I was like, I'm sorry. But again, if that's what it is, then that's a part of it, too.

Yeah, it's exactly. I had. I had a friend of mine who's getting married, like, I was like, 10 years ago, and he said to me, I'm freaking out because I just. I know myself, and I know I might be able to someday. I just might want to do something. I said, well, just tell her that you need a hall pass. Tell her to say to her, you know, I'm not saying right now, but at some point, maybe I'll be out of town or something's gonna happen. And she said, yeah, she gave him the hall pass. And he was like, so much. He was able to, like, get married to her. I don't know. I haven't checked in with him lately, but it was like, something I had to do.

I need an end of this story. I need to know what happened.

Here's the thing. I should call him.

Yeah, I should ask him.

Thinking about it, but I think he has no. I think I did run into a few years ago, and he's like, it just been. And I did. He was visiting San Francisco. I was like, whatever happened? Because I used to live there. And he's like, yeah, I think he's done it when he's traveling or he's in Vegas. But she's cool. It was an arrangement, which. Kind of the opposite of what you're saying, because you took it away from me. But there's both sides that it goes. Absolutely. That's smart, though.

I have had a lot of clients come to me, and one or the other is cheating outside of the marriage. And as soon as it's disclosed and the dissolution starts, they come back, they go, this wasn't fun anymore for me. I don't want to be with her. I want to be with you.

And then what happens, though? Can they get back together?

Sometimes they Can. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes the person who the cheated on party is like, I just can't ever be with you again after that. And sometimes they're like, okay, good. It just depends.

Since you are the celebrity divorce attorney. Let's talk about celebrity divorces because we are seeing it being a little more amicable.

We're definitely seeing a trend with celebrities, really, whether it's true or not, putting on a great face and showing the rest of the world, starting with their children and working all the way out, that they are still going to be friends, that they are still going to co parent. They can sometimes vacation together. They're not going to have a big, you know, war in court together. You're not going to read about this in the newspaper. Except that, hey, we really still love each other and we're family, blah, blah. What that does for our culture is it trickles down. We all want to be like the celebrities. So we're gonna consciously uncouple and we're going to. I think it was gently separate. Was another one of them. I mean, and I think that's great for everybody. That's directly in line with what it is that I'm trying to do, which is be nicer to each other, be kind.

Your co parent. It's true. Because I still hear these stories nowadays, even from friends or people call into the show. They're like, one of the parents is trashing the other parent to the kids. And that just could have devastating impact on the kids. My parents and do that. That was rare. That was rare at the time. So now it's good to see that. That the celebrity divorces are actually pretend.

You'Re that celebrity and fake it till you make it. And eventually that you will start being like that.

Yeah. Because you at one point, you loved each other and you have family, so don't make it hell. And I have five questions for you that we ask all of our guests. Okay. Very quickie questions. Okay. What is your biggest turn on kindness? Biggest turn off cheapness? How would you describe your relationship? You're in a relationship in three words.

Lots of laughs. Laughs.

I love it. One thing you would tell your younger self about, sex.

Ooh. Keep it up.

Keep going. Keep doing it. Number one relationship tip.

Communicate. Even if it's not comfortable, communicate.

All right. Thank you, Laura. We can find you at. We'll put this all at the top of the show too, but it's overeasy.com.

Laura Wasser official is insta. And the firm that I work with is. Wasser Cooperman, Mandel's family law in Century City.

And yeah, so freezing. Okay. And this will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

After the break, I'm answering another Emily's email about what it means if you keep dating men who are separated. Ooh, good question.

Hey, Dr. Emily. I keep finding myself in flirtatious relationships with older men. And sometimes this moves to the bedroom. I feel so desired. And when I'm with older men and super turned on, the complicated part is if these men aren't single and they're separated and I don't know how I feel about it, at first I didn't think anything about it. They were separated, no big deal. That's their business. But I'm not hurting anyone if they're separated, right? What does separated mean exactly? I've never been married and I have no emotional tie to this category. Can you help? Should I not sleep with men who are separated? I don't want to hurt anyone. Talk to me about it. All right, Emily. Well, this is really interesting that you keep finding yourself with men who are separated. They're not divorced. They're not living apart from their spouse. Maybe they're living apart, but they are officially separated, which means they are not officially not together. It just means they're taking a break. Now, we don't know for sure. Maybe they're separated and their partner doesn't know they're separated. This is a murky area and you are right to have your antenna go up and think, huh? What does it really mean? It's interesting. They're not saying, I'm in the middle of a divorce or I'm in a transition of, you know, moving out of my house, but separated. My advice for you is to ask them what they mean by separated. You could just say separated. Huh? Tell me more about that. And then you get to find out in their words what it means. Now, separated could be a stop on the way to divorce town. Separated could mean we got in a fight and I'm now like getting back at my partner or I'm seeing what it would be like to be single. But in any case, to answer your question, I am feeling like this probably doesn't mean these are guys that you should be making your future on or really any sort of long term future. Now, if you just want to have some sex, have some fun, and you're in a place where you are not going to get emotionally attached or emotionally dependent on these guys, I think it's fine. I think it's okay to go out and have some fun. But I also think you do run the risk of being hurt. What if they're really married and they're cheating? I would ask those questions. I think if you probe, you know, you should be able to get the answers and then you get to make your own decisions. I would say, yeah, if these guys are married, you know, you would be hurting the wife if she found out. If they're still together, find out a little bit more, ask some questions. And to go back to your point here, what does it mean for you, Emily, that you are finding yourself in flirtatious relationships with older men? Is this a pattern that's been going on for a while? Is it satisfying you on a deeper level? Is it telling you something about what you really are attracted to? Is it something that, you know, you actually are just friends with them and it becomes flirtatious? And then when they make the advances, your ego feels good and you think, okay, maybe I'll go have sex with them. What do you really want right now, Emily? What are you getting out of these relationships? Are you looking for a relationship? So I think for you, getting clear, Emily, on what your intention is right now in this place of dating in your life. Because if it is just to have some sex and figure things out, well, yeah, then keep dating these separated men. Life is short. We all don't have a lot of time on this planet. We really don't. We never know what life's gonna bring us. And so if you're someone, Emily, who is looking for a relationship, then I would say, you know what? I'm gonna keep the friendship in these relationships with older men and take out the flirtatious part and see how I really feel about these relationships. Because remember, every time we let go of something that isn't serving us, it's not healthy. Whether it's a person, place, or thing, we're going to fill it with something that actually is going to help us and move us forward. It's true. That's just how it works. You make space for something else, it's going to get filled. If you spend a lot of time with these ambiguous relationships with older men, then you're leaving less space for relationships with men. That might really be a great complement to where you are now. Only you know, Emily, what you're looking for, because I believe once we all get clear on it, we are all able to get it. Shane, 44 in Canada. Okay, Shane, what is your question? How can I help you?

I'm Married to my wife, this October will be 20 years. We've been together for 23. Our relationship has been somewhat volatile, meaning, I mean, she has a pretty. Pretty bad temper, and it seems to have just gotten worse over the years and especially after kids really seem to pick up. And it's killed my sex drive and it's killed my attachment or even just being, you know, emotionally present for her. I know that sex and connection is important in a relationship, and it's definitely important to me, but I have no desire to be with her. And we've seen a therapist before. We saw a therapist for over a year, and from the early meetings with that therapist, she told us that there was a ton of red flags that she had seen from our. You know, we filled in the original questionnaire and just meeting with us a couple of times, but we went through. We met with her for a year, and the way it ended was she was going on leave, and she just basically said, listen, we've done a year. You know, I don't know if we're really in any better position than we were when we started. You know, I can refer you to someone else or, you know, you guys can maybe decide this is not going to work. Right. So kind of caused by surprise when that happened, but we didn't see anybody else, and we've kind of just been, I would say, treading water, barely, since then. And that was about a couple years ago. And I don't know what to do. I just don't know if this environment is. It's definitely not good for me. I don't think it's good for the kids because they're old enough now where they. They say stuff to me, Right.

And I don't.

I feel. There's a lot of guilt that I feel because by not doing anything, I'm, you know, leaving them in this environment, which is detrimental to them in the long run. Right.

So.

Yeah. What do your kids say when they say that they know what's going on? What do they see?

My daughter just turned 16. My son's 13 and a half. And, you know, like, they're like, why is mom yelling? Like, yesterday my daughter called me because she. We had to drive to work, and she's like, can you drive me to work? Because Mom's yelling and cussing and. Yeah, I don't want to be around her.

Has your wife ever gotten any treatment on her own?

No. I mean, I broached the subject with her. Like, we've had times where, like, I've said, like, listen, I can't do this. Right. Like, I'm. I'm done. Like, I can't deal with your temper.

Let's go back to the red flags that the therapist pointed out, because that's pretty rare that a therapist is going to say it doesn't look good. I haven't heard that. So how are those red flags going?

I can't remember exactly what it was. I know that, you know, probably.

No, though.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm sure a lot of it had to do with just. There was a lot of anger on both sides, I'm sure. Right. Different backgrounds. She. I mean, she came from a pretty conservative Chinese upbringing. I mean, even when we were dating, like, we got engaged and I'd never met her parents. Her parents didn't even know anything about me.

Yeah.

So, I mean, you know, I was young. I was like 22 or something like that. So, I mean, you didn't know at the time, you know, the significance of that? I mean, yeah, you can be scared because of cultural backgrounds. Right. Like, my family's from Sri Lanka, so, you know, I'm brown in color and her family's Chinese. And so they're very strict that way. Right. Like, you don't.

Yeah.

Kind of go outside the culture.

I get that. Yeah. I mean, but it's in 20 years now, so. Yeah, I guess I'm asking because you called in asking about, like, now I don't want to have sex with her after all this long, but all this while. Which makes sense because if there's been yelling and screaming and in the home and a temper that hasn't been. Been resolved, she's repeating this. It sounds a little bit toxic and potentially abusive and it doesn't. It would make sense that you wouldn't have such a high libido right now. I understand the fears of not wanting to impact your kids, but the fact that your kids are saying to you, mom screaming now. Not that any kid want their parents to get divorced. I just think that you went to therapy for a year. That would be my suggestion for you. So then do you feel like you could see your life, you could see separating, like a trial separation?

Well, that's the thing. Right. Like, I. I mean, I come from a divorce family. My. Both my parents have been divorced twice. And you never want that for your family. Right. You always want to try. Don't want to be another anecdote where, you know, you come from a divorced family. That's why you're divorced. Right. So aside from that, like, life wise, like you know, we've cultivated like good group of friends and we're in the community and stuff like that. And so a good life except for the home life. Right. Like, I feel a tremendous amount of guilt too, because I know that like, by not being a husband to her in the bedroom, that, I mean it's not fair to her either. Right.

Like, it's not fair to either one of you. And I feel like you've been taking a lot of the brunt of this over the last 20 years. It sounds like this has been probably going on for a long time. I understand that cultural differences and you come from different backgrounds, but after 20 years, you pretty much know what the challenges are and understand people staying together with little kids. I understand that. But I also know that kids know what's going on in the home and parents can stay together and that can be just as difficult for kids if the home environment isn't peaceful, that they're not actually seeing what it looks like to have loving parents, they're not seeing affectionate parents and parents who are supporting each other. And do you know what gets your wife to take action? Like, I could you say, I don't. Have you ever said to her, I'm not sure I could keep going like this because she probably needs therapy on her own. The fact that she went for a year is incredible with you. A lot of couples just bail on that. But even the therapist told you there was no progress.

I honestly don't know if she truly loves me or she's just afraid of being labeled, you know, especially in her family as being divorced and having a marriage that didn't work. And it's just, she just says, oh no, I love you and why not, right?

You both have a fear that you're gonna be judged by your families and you're a full on adult. You know, you have kids, you have adults, you're 44 years old. @ some point in life we got to stop focusing so much and worrying so much about what our family is going to think and our neighbors are going to think people are still going to love you and they're still going to be your friends. You're an adult right now. So I feel like a trial separation or doing something different needs to.

Happen. I started seeing another therapist on my own and I, I had my first session yesterday actually. So, so happy for you. Literally. Yeah. What he said is to, you know, I would say, you know, you know, offer her an opportunity to talk about the relationship and say, ask her, you know, like what triggers her like what? What is she trying to communicate when she flies off the.

Handle? I concur with your therapist that we have to change the conversation of like, what is the fear around here? Let's talk about the state of this marriage. It's unhealthy in these ways. And just have a real conversation with her. You're doing all the right things, but I would definitely have it continue to have those conversations with her. And if it starts to get abusive and her yelling gets more intense, you have every right to leave that relationship. Bring your kids with you. It sounds.

Unhealthy.

Thanks. Thank you. Of course, Jane. Have a great night. I appreciate you. Thanks for calling in. You guys. I understand that there is this stigma around divorce. I hear this all the time. I understand it. What about the stigma of staying in a relationship where you're not experiencing pleasure, where it's making you feel like you're a bad person, you're not lovable, that you've created toxic behaviors that are making make your life miserable? Why isn't there a stigma about staying in unhealthy relationships? And also if you're walking around with messages that don't serve you anymore from people who aren't in your life anymore, your parents, are they really going to leave you? Are they going to judge you? Your cousins, your neighbors, who really cares? And is their happiness more important than your own? So once you tease all these things out and you realize what's important to you, you can even journal about it, then I think you can make healthier decisions coming from what's good for you and what you deserve rather than worrying about what everyone else thinks around you. Let's hear a quick word for our sponsors, but stick around. I'm talking all about how to dive into dating after getting divorced.

This is from Alex, 44, in Texas. Hey, Dr. Emily, I'm curious if you could speak about the relationship between physical attraction and the emotion of love. I was married for 12 years before my wife and I divorced in 2018. In my dating experiences, since it's the more attractive women who seem to generate more emotions with me, despite the less attractive women possessing far more attributes that I'm looking for and are obviously a better fit for me, this isn't making my dating life any easier and it's really starting to tie my mind in knots. Also, as I'm open to accepting love and giving love, is it fair to compare the emotion I feel now at 44 to the emotions I felt as a young, inexperienced 21 year old where I could be swept off my feet and not touch the ground again for a year. In fact, I haven't had what people call a honeymoon period in any of my post divorce relationships. These relationships have felt very mature and level headed, but I can't help wondering if maybe this is a bad thing. Should all good relationship experience the honeymoon phase? I wasn't afraid of being single again after my divorce. I just wasn't expecting such emotional confusion when everything seemed so clear and easy to translate when I was younger. It seems like I now question everything and oddly in my fourth decade of life, I'm questioning how love works. Hugs to you and your team from Texas. Thank you Alex I love this email question. I think so many of us can relate to once we've experienced deep love, marriage, a long term relationship once we get older. You have decades of dating now under your belt. We're less likely to experience the innocence and the naivete that we felt in our 20s. It was our first times being in love, feeling that our heart, you know, could never expand as much as it did. And that deep attraction we feel to somebody and we don't have as many concerns, concerns about kids or getting older or all the things. It's just a much more free time and it doesn't repeat again. It doesn't. But the good news about being in your 40s is that you have experience, you have more depth and you know what you want. So at least you know better what you want. I hope so. To answer your question about the honeymoon phase, it does look a little bit different in your 40s. I still think you should be feeling super attracted to people and excited and that feeling that you know you want to see this person a lot and you're really enjoying the sex you're having and you're enjoying the connection and every time you're with them you're feeling this excitement to learn more and more about them. So that honeymoon phase does exist. It just might feel a little bit different right now when you're saying that these attractive women are generating more emotions. Define the emotions. Is it emotions like I think this is my person forever or is it more of a physical attraction? Only you know the difference between that? I love that you're open to accepting love and giving love, but I think comparing it to what you felt at 21 is not realistic. Nothing's going to feel the same as it did at 21 in your 40s. And I think that's a good thing because now you understand more about what you want. You were married, you did the work in a relationship for 12 years and the fact that you're saying that these relationships have feel more mature and level headed, as long as you are attracted to the people and it feels beyond friendship, then I think it's okay. I think this is where you get to discuss what are your shared values? What's important to you? How do you want to live your life? How do you like to spend your free time? How important are kids to you? How important is marriage? Living together? Talk about money and how you guys deal with debt. Do you have debt? How about when someone's parents get sick, do you want them to come live with you? I think that these are the kind of things that we don't really think about in our 20s, which is why we love so openly. And honoring the fact that you're a 44 year old man who seems like you've done some work and you have some thoughts around this, it's okay to be questioning it. Love isn't lust. And it sounds like maybe you're having some lust for these younger women, but you're also thinking to yourself, I think I want something with a little more depth and somebody who can kind of meet me where I'm at. There have been studies that show that an 8 year age difference is about the maximum age range that really works in relationships. Now I know you have stories about 20 year age gaps and been working for a lot of people. That's great. Maybe it does. But for the majority of people, as science says, it's about an eight year age difference or fewer years than that that really make for healthy, sustainable relationships. So best of luck to you, Alex. Keep me posted. Next we're going to talk to Jazz and his girlfriend Virginia. Hi, you two, tell me.

Everything. Okay, so we've been dating for just over 14 months and at the time that we started, which was June of last year, I was seven months out of an amico divorce. I was married for 17 years and she was in her prior relationship, marriage plus relationship for 17 years. So we both. But at the time we met, she was four years out of her divorce. So it was, well, a long past for her. And so for me, I just been tentative about when I'm going to let my son and my ex know that like my ex knows I'm in the dating world. As of now, she doesn't know that I've met someone that I've dated this long and we have an amicable relationship with my ex. And part of me feels like, like I don't know how she will Take it that I met someone else so soon. And my son, who's 16, he's kind of sensitive. And, like, the last time I saw him, he was still kind of hard for. For him to even talk about the divorce. I mean, he. Obviously, he's been living with it for over a year. Part of me is like, when's a good time to let them.

Know? I think it's time. What I get concerned about is couples. Like, it's been three dates. Come meet my child. I mean, the rule of thumb is about six months with.

Somebody.

Sure. You know, it's going to be a solid relationship to introduce your new partner to your kids. For Jaina, do you have.

Kids? Yeah, I have two. 12 and.

15. Got it. I think that it's time you guys seem like you're together and loving and open and communicating. I mean, you already have the divorce settled. It's.

Done. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Up to this point, I had been waiting because I just wanted to make sure, like, this was gonna last a long time, because I don't want to get.

Them. Yep. Attached to somebody. Yeah, that's really important.

Considerations. And then a couple of weeks ago, we had sort of like a tiff that.

I think gave us both a little bit of pause, like, oh, wow, could we at some point break up? That made me a little bit more nervous about laying it.

Out. But you're already like that already. And he's already met my two kids. He spends time with them. We vacation together. And so I think. I don't think it causes a huge strain on the relationship, but a little bit, because I would think so, too. Very incorporated into my life, but I'm not.

Well. Ron, what are you afraid.

Of? Hurting people that I care about? Because I remember what it was like for me. I was a lot younger than he was when I knew. My parents are getting divorced, so there's a little bit of difference. So there's part of that. And I'm that kind of person, like, who doesn't like to hurt people who I care about. And so a part of me still cares about my ex's feelings. Not to the extent that, you know, obviously it would prevent me from meeting other people or whatnot, but to say, hey, I've met someone else who is possibly going to be permanent for the foreseeable future. Just so you know. Okay.

Seems.

But now your Virginia is ready for you. Now you're hurting someone that you love and that you've been with for 14 months. And she sounds like she's.

Ready. Is this Right.

Okay.

She's not gonna.

Come. We actually had a past fight about.

This. Oh, okay. There you.

Go. Because, I mean, this is months ago, but I would say. You would say, oh, I talked to my son, like, you know, because of COVID and stuff. And so, like, he was. He talks to someone on Zoom, since he lives kind of far away right.

Now.

Right. And remember, I'll be like, oh, do you know, when are you planning to tell him? Or when are you planning. You know? And we kind of. Every time I ask that question, you get upset with me when I.

Ask. I don't know if upset's the right word.

I just would say that. Two things. One, I've totally brought her into the lives of all the people who are close to me. That. That mean to me, like, my best friends, my family, who's down here, who I care about. If my son was down here, it would be a completely different picture that he's living in another city right now. So it's almost like going out of my way to introduce him to this new person who, for all intents and purposes, is not going to be like a mom to him. Right. And so that's. I think, for me, that's part of the.

Issue. I think it's really important kids to. For kids to understand their parents. Emotional life as well, and to say, you're someone that's really special to me. I really wanted to wait until I knew that it would, because my. You could even be honest. My parents didn't do that. They introduced me to people right away, or it wasn't a great experience. Experience. So I've spent a lot of time really making sure that if I did introduce you to somebody, it was somebody that I really cared about. And you just have one mom, one dad, like your mom, and I love you, and she's not coming in to be your mom, and she's not coming in to take over your life. But I just want you to know something that's happening that's making me happy right now, that's giving me a lot of joy, and I look forward to you both meeting one day and that, like, leave it at that. So it's mostly on Zoom, is what you're saying that most of this is on.

Zoom. I see my son. Yeah. I spent a few weeks with him last month. I went up and visited him. But for the most part, we see each other on Zoom, like, once a.

Week. So what do you guys talk about? I mean, this would be something.

Great. He's, like, really into video Production and Legos and Marvel. So we talk about, you know, 16 year old.

Stuff.

Yeah. He really gets into.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. And I think that would be nice for him to just to let him know a little bit about what's going on with you because. What about his mother? He lives with his.

Mother?

Yes. And is she dating other.

People? I have no idea. I doubt it, but I really don't.

Know. But why do you doubt.

It? Because I know she's put a lot of focus and to being a mom to him. But to be honest, I don't know. Like we don't talk about each.

Other'S. Okay, well that sounds like how you have really healthy boundaries with her. And I love. That was an amicable divorce, but 14 months and you've been with someone that you really, you care about. I think it's time to at least to share that. I think in your mind you're like, oh, it's going to be this like, oh God, dad's. You know that. How do you do that? I really hope that mom and dad would get back together, you know. So I think that you're kind of creating these case in your head which I think is so loving too in a way protective because you don't want to make the same mistakes that your parents did is what I heard you say. But. But it's a different time now and you get to be Ron, who sounds like you're a really loving man. Father, lover, ex husband. All the things and your son might want to know. Like he might say, dad, why don't you tell me? I'm really happy you found.

Someone. And is it like, do I make a point to bring it.

Up? When are you going to see him.

Again? Probably either this weekend or.

Next. I mean, is it important to you, Virginia, that he tells him this weekend or soon enough.

Or. I don't necessarily. What do you need for this weekend? But I mean at some point I think it would be important. I've been trying to be patient about like the.

Timing.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I think what I am most worried about is like, you know, especially if you want to have a really solid relationship with your child, you don't want them to also feel like you've been hiding things from them. So like we're already at 14 months. If he waits another like year, like he'll be like, oh, by the way, I've been dating this person for two years, but I've never mentioned them to you. You know what I.

Mean? Yeah. I mean you might be broaching at that point. But I also understand he's a 16 year old boy and he's probably concerned with himself more than like, what's dad doing? Because at that age you still think your parents just lived for you, right? Your parents just live for you. It takes a long time to get up. So he might be like, okay, cool dad, whatever. Let's get back to talking about video games, you know. Yeah, yeah, So I see what you're saying with the emotional maturity level of a 16 year old boy is not, you know, or girl even at that point. It's just. I don't know, I mean, I think it just. What it's telling me is that there's some more connection that you might. Maybe there's other things to share with them first or I don't know. I mean, I know it's rough with kids because they don't really. They will. He will get to a point where he's, dad, how are you doing? What's going on with your life? He's not there yet. I think that a lot of kids don't get there maybe till their twenties. I can tell you, like a lot of my friends, kids or my nieces, like they probably never said, how are you, aunt Em? Until like they were like 20. Like, what's going on with you? Right. So I just think this is about your dynamic with him. But if it feels more important to you, I'm giving you the go ahead. I'm saying it's okay because I think that we hide so much from kids and I think it's really healthy to let him know, be real with him. I waited because I didn't want to hurt you. But I really think there's someone special. I think you'd like to meet her. It's not like it's been a month. Like my mom, she'll tell me she hates when I bring this up. My parents got divorced and my mom got remarried like six months later and moved someone in with us. Like that was bad. That was like the 80s, whatever. What I'm saying is that wasn't. She's not me. We talk about all the time. Point is, that's not ideal. That was like six months. This is like 14 months. You're being careful. There's some middle ground there where you just got to be honest and treat your kid. You know, kids are 16 year old, man. He should know. He should know what's going on with his dad and teach him something about relationships. That relationships can end but you can find love. And she probably talked about masturbation, too, but that's another.

Show. I don't think my ex would appreciate.

That. Why, though? You're the other person in the family with a.

Penis. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then. And then just not be worried about that conversation with my.

Ex. I think you should tell your ex, maybe for the same time, and say, I want you to know I've been seeing someone. She might have been, too. I think you should tell her, like, you guys are divorced fully, it's amicable. I think that couples who break up, like, she should be happy for you that you found. Or at least, like, great, you're in a place with someone, and if she's not, that's another. Doesn't sound like it was that amicable. But after four years apart, eventually you just want someone to be happy.

Right?

Yeah. I don't know her. I don't know her emotional state, her mental state. You say, I just want you to know that I've been seeing someone and I'm going to tell our son about it. When you do decide to tell your son, that's how I think the order. Because you don't want him to misinterpret it and say, hey, mom, dad, seen.

A. So you think I should tell her.

First? Yeah. Say, I'm talking to our son today, and I just want you to know that I'm gonna let him know that I've been seeing someone. And I want you to know, too clearly, the fact that it's so hard for you makes me feel like there's something there that it'll be really important for you to do. So what you're telling me is it's amicable, We've been divorced, we don't talk. It's been a few years. We're living apart in different cities. Why wouldn't you tell her? So all that's making me think is either I'm missing something here, but otherwise, those are all the facts. Let her know. What are we.

Missing? We're not missing anything. It was just. There was like. There was an awkward point when we were. When we had decided to get divorced, but we were still together at that point. We were going through a lot emotionally. I was wondering what it would be like to be out in the dating world again. And make a long story short, we were sharing passwords because we were splitting up our passwords, since we were separating. And my bumble password was in the total list. And she came across it, so she actually took it pretty.

Well.

Okay. It's kind of awkward. Even though, again, we had decided we were getting divorced. Yeah, we were already separated, but it was just so this. This awkwardness of, like, me getting back into the dating scene so.

Quickly. You did nothing wrong here. I think you have some. I don't know, maybe some shame or you feel bad. You sound like you have a really big a heart.

I know, and I love that about you. And now you're in a loving relationship with a woman. And I think maybe this will help you maybe separate from that and realize that it's okay. Like, a lot of people are on Bumble the next day after they break up. Happens all the time. Really? You're like, we just broke up. And now she's. I hope she's on Bumble. I hope she's somewhere. I hope she's. Don't you hope she has.

Fun? Because we were. We were traveling abroad at the time, but I had had my VPN set for the city we were going back to. So I thought I would only find people in the city we were going back to. But apparently Bumble can go past her vpn so it would still find people local to the city we were in at the.

Time. I get it. I think you got it. It's time for you to be your own best advocate here. It sounds like you really want to, like, please her and you're really careful about everyone's feelings, but I want you to kind of think about what's good for you. And wouldn't it feel good to have all this out in the open and have your partner happy here and have your kids know who you are and have your ex know that you're doing fine? And I hope you let her know that you hope she is as well. It's okay. You're all adults. And I would think that our higher selves all want everyone in our lives to be happy and to find love. Especially the father of her child. Well, thank you for calling in. Thank you. It was really great to see both of you. Thank you. Now I gotta know what happens, so you have to let me.

Know. We.

Will. Okay. Thank you so.

Much. Thank.

You. Great to see you both. Have a good night. Bye. I think that sometimes we gotta take a check for trying to protect others around us, protect their feelings. Maybe it's a little bit of people pleasing. We try so hard to make sure that everyone around us is okay, but we're not really standing up for ourselves, advocating for our needs. And I think it's perfectly okay and probably time if you have a relationship with your ex or you're sharing a child together that it's okay to let them know that you have a life outside the relationship. And if anything, I think it is important to show our kids our emotional states and what we're going through. And I think all of that is valid and an important part of feeling that we are showing up as our authentic selves all the time.

That's it for today's episode. See you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like subscribe and give us a a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter sexwithemily oh, I've been told I give really good email, so sign up@sexwithemily.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. If you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating or relationships, call my hotline 5592-talk-SEX. That's 559-825-5739 or go to sexwithemily.com askemily Special thanks to Acast for powering the Sex with Emily podcast. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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