The Master Of O

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Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they called them in a bygone day.

Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken.

He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my. Do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge?

What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks?

Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me?

Oh my God, it feels so good. Being bad feels pretty good.

You know, Emily, She's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, go to sexwithemily.com where you can check out all my podcasts, my blogs, my videos, anything you want to know about having better sex and relationships. Just assuming why you're listening to the Sex with Emily podcast, you can find it all on my website. And the easiest thing to do is just to subscribe to the podcast because I do 2 a week. You'll never miss a podcast. They'll just end up right there in your inbox and all will be good because I know you don't want to miss anything that I have to say. And I want to thank everyone for listening and I love hearing from you and I appreciate— I read all your emails that you send to feedback@sexwithemily.com, so keep them coming. And also on Wednesdays between 12:30 and 1 o'clock Pacific Standard Time, if you're on Twitter, and if you're not, you should be on Twitter, @sexwithemily, #AskEmily. I will be answering all of your sex and relationship questions between 12:30 to 1:00. So you can do that. Join me there. It'll be really, really fun. And today's show, I'm really excited about my guest, who I'll get to in a minute, but I have Ernest Greene on the show, and he is the director, editor, and author of a new book called Master of O, which is based on the story of O, which is an infamous French novel from 1954. And it's a pretty erotic tale here. We're going to get into it. It's dirty, sexy, hot, and we're going to talk about that. But I'm— luckily, I'm surprised that Nina Hartley came, who's also his partner. They've been together for 14 years. So Nina, thank you for joining me. Nina's been on the show several times and we're going to get— because, you know, one of the top questions I get asked in my relationship, in my relationship, in my show is how do we spice things up? How do we keep things interesting? How do I get my partner to try this or that? I mean, literally, I think that is probably the top. I get 3 asked, asked 3 top questions. That's one of them. Um, and so I think today they're, they're, they're, you know, Ernest has been in the BDSM community for about 40 years, 40 years. And so, you know, I'm not saying that you got to go all out BDSM, but there's a lot of elements here that you can learn that can help spice up your relationship. And we're gonna break it down for you, and we're gonna talk about how they've been happy and had a happy relationship together for 14 years. Were they, you know, both— I mean, who keeps seeing a heartily happy for 14 years? Pretty amazing. And, um, and you're pretty amazing yourself too. Not to say that you wouldn't be difficult as well— not difficult, but you guys have had, you know, your share.

It's challenging.

Um, so I'm excited to talk to you guys both. We're going to get into all that. We also might get to some emails today. And, um, yeah, I want to talk to Anderson for a second.

Anderson, What up, baby?

How are you?

I'm good.

I love that you came by my office today.

I did.

That was the highlight of my day.

Was it really?

Yeah.

Must have been a sad day.

It kind of was a sad day because I was in the Valley all day at a meeting.

What's wrong with the Valley?

That's where I live.

What are you trying to say, babe?

I knew you were there. I would have had lunch. No, it was just like a really long meeting.

Here's what the listeners need to know about Emily, okay? So I walk into her office. It's smack dab in the middle of Hollywood, right? And it's like hopping. There's no place to park. All these tourists taking pictures of every— People were taking a picture of me.

People were just taking pictures of me.

'Cause you're so hot, they think you're Southern.

I like those buses that have the tops cut off. I mean, that, the epicenter of Hollywood, wherever you are. Beautiful view on the 11th floor.

Cool house.

Emily has no idea what's outside the window.

None.

No, I just don't have time to look out the— I know I have a view of the Hollywood sign.

What else is around you? Like the Roosevelt, the pool, you see all the Hollywood sign, downtown LA. I'm like, look at this. She's like, oh, I've never seen that before.

No, I hadn't seen the pool. I was there for 3 days before my friend came. He's like, you know you see the Hollywood sign. And that's bad. That's what my mom always says. Pay attention. You're focused on the dick in front of you. Which is good. You know what though, I just, I do love my office and I need to appreciate it. It is beautiful office space, so thank you for coming by. And you saw my sex toys, you think, and you're like, oh, I thought there'd be more sex toys.

I was hoping for like 10.

What'd you want, like 50?

I wanted like, like the, uh, deer heads on the walls of hunters. I wanted like giant black dongs on, on like—

I'm so sorry. Next time, next time I'll do that for you. But I appreciate you stopping by. It was, it was fun to see you. And, um, so also, I guess let's just— oh, one more thing. On July 16th, I will be teaching a workshop at the Hustler Hollywood Store, which is Legendary on Sunset Boulevard. How to Blow His Mind, uh, with Sex with Emily is what it's called.

You came up with that idea on this show?

I did, didn't I? That idea. But how to blow his mind, did I come up with that title?

Yeah. Well, no, not that.

You know what's so funny is because I just came with it yesterday, but I should listen to my shows. Do most people listen to their— because everyone's like, you should just listen. I'm like, I don't have time. I don't have time to listen to anything else. I did say that though.

Oh, you should listen, then get caught by a listener, like, who can hear what you're listening to in traffic or something.

And you listening to yourself, I like—

I didn't know—

time.

But, um, yes, I am teaching a workshop. I'm really excited about about it, and everyone should just check out the Hustler store in Hollywood. It's legendary. It's been there for a long time. And so if you're in town, I would love to see you, meet you in person, and, um, it is July 16th, and I will have— in the evening, in the evening— and I will have more details to follow.

And what do you get to see if you show up?

If you show up, you get to learn my tips for blowing him away in bed. There will be some blowjob tips, there will be some toy demonstrations, some kink, how to spice things up in the bedroom. Um, and we'll have some cocktails and some food, and it'll be a great night. And the store is beautiful. It's amazing. It's a huge— it's a legendary—

you should—

if you, you know, you come to Hollywood, you're like, I want to see the Hollywood sign, you should also go to the Hollywood store.

It should be on your checklist.

Yeah, it should.

And if you, if you're listening to this and you do live in LA or you're there, you can— you tell them at the checkout that you, uh, mention my name, Emily, Sex with Emily, and you get 20% off whatever you buy, I believe. Tell them you get some good percentage off. I should know that.

It's 20%, confirmed in here.

Okay, I just said 20%, so tell them that's what I said. Okay, so Hello, Ernest Green. I am so glad you're here. So, okay, so you've directed over 500 features, kinky features, starred in a lot of kinky features. Yep. And you also— so your book, um, your brand new book Master of O, is based on the erotic novel Story of O, which was published in 1954 by French author Pauline Réage, right? Réage?

Pauline Réage. That was one of many.

I thought it was Réage, and then it was something, because I do speak French anyway, right? It wasn't her real name. Um, uh, You, so basically you, you bring, uh, Reage's tale of erotic submission to modern-day Los Angeles to look at the other side of the famous stories from, from the male perspective. It includes detailed depictions of BDSM techniques like bondage, flogging, electrical stimulation, but also explores the remarkable intimacy and trust that comes from being on either side of that equation. And you've been active, like I said, in the BDSM community for 40 years, conducting workshops and seminars, and he's been married to Nina Hartley sex-positive porn star, pornographic film director, sex educator, feminist, author since 2003. That's what I have. It's a long time.

That is the one.

Congratulations on that.

Although it's just flown by, I gotta tell you.

Really? Because you guys are so happy together. Marital bliss.

It really is.

What's the secret?

No kids.

I hear you. I hear you. To me, that's— that totally— I'm with you. I get it.

We were past that before we did the marriage.

But did you ever think that you— did you have earning yearnings to have children ever?

No, never. Never hit me. I kept waiting and there, right, no battery in the biological clock.

I kept waiting. I'm like, I don't, I don't have it. Like, it didn't happen.

They forgot to wind your clock at the factory, right?

Exactly. And I'm fine with that, right? We have full lives without it. So, um, okay.

And I looked around at my family when I was young and decided right then and there, that's enough of that.

Same thing, same with me. I'm like, my family, really? Like, marriage, divorce, the whole thing? No thank you. So, okay, Ernest, I mean, I just, I have so many questions for you, but I want to know first though, like, your history. Like, when did you first know that you were a kinky soul?

I never didn't know. From the first sexual thoughts that I ever had, they were all around power exchange and power play. They were all around bondage and things associated with it. They were all about that.

Like, at what age?

I would say that by the time I was maybe 12 or 13, I knew this was what was going to be.

But how did you know? Had you seen images? Had you been watching? Where?

I just respond— I'll tell you, I— listen, by the time I was 10, I'd already tied up every kid in the neighborhood. We had to move 13 times before I moved. Probably was junior high school. I believe it is. That's a whole other subject, but I do believe that it's somewhat heritable. It's in that sense, if there's a gay gene, there's probably a kinky gene.

There probably is a kinky gene.

Because I have other family members who, you know, without consultation, having grown up nowhere near each other, when we bump into each other, the subject has a way of coming up. So yeah, I think that has something to do with it. And I also just found it fascinating, intriguing in some way. It was the thing that pushed the button.

Right, it was a thing that got you going. So how did you find partners that were suitable for you?

Well, fortunately, I think also as with other kinds of unusual sexuality, people who have it have a sort of radar for it. So people find you. I never have had any— I've never had to look for partners. I grew up in Denver, Colorado. Very unlikely.

Very unlikely. Well, I'm glad you're saying that because a lot of my listeners are like, how do I find a partner? How do I know? How do you—

You're in more trouble. It really won't be a problem if you're really there. It started for me when I was in high school, and a girl a year ahead of me in high school was a cheerleader and couldn't have been a more unlikely partner for the class nerd. I had somehow decided that there was something about me that was just the thing that she needed, and just the thing that she needed was to be tied up with scarves and spanked with a belt before having sex.

How did she know?

I have no idea how people know, but somehow—

And she knew you were the guy.

And somehow she looked at me and she thought— The cheerleader.

It's unlikely.

But it's got to be him, right? And in fact, she proposed this before we had—

she said, hey, tie me up. She's like 17.

Yeah.

And, uh, before, before we, uh, actually got around to having conventional sex, we did that as foreplay, and it's pretty much been that way for me ever since.

So can you have just traditional sex without any of that, or just doesn't do it for you?

Well, sure I could, and have, and, and have—

you guys ever— you guys just have regular?

No, no, no.

Well, why would we?

I don't know, just because sometimes you're like, I'm tired, I just don't feel like getting out the whips, the ties, the chains, you know. If I'm that tired, I'm really probably not in mood for sex anyway.

He's not a quickie. He's not a fast trick.

Sometime, not quick, but just like 15 minutes maybe. But you don't want to get—

never.

Do you have the under-bed restraints and all that? I mean, you must have everything.

We have a whole room.

I'm— oh, you do? No kids, right?

Yeah, so we don't have to put anything away.

That's true.

It's very convenient for us. And in fact, what we do for a living really complements it nicely. I mean, it's what we do. But, um, it's even whatever— even if we do something that for us is like a relative quickie, The dominant-submissive aspect of it is still there. You know, you're still wearing your collar. There are certain little symbolic things that we do. So even if what we're doing doesn't appear to be particularly elaborate or unusual, it's the headspace from which we're doing it.

Yeah, right. Okay.

That means the most. That is the most important part of it.

So, Nina, have you always been into being the submissive? I don't think I know. I've always been like— I knew I've always talked for an hour.

I've always been into whatever sex is happening in the room, with very few exceptions. Obviously, gay men are not going to have me in the room. Heterosexual women are not going to have me in the room, you know. But, and for me, my idea of sex is, ooh, naked people, where? How can I join in? So when I think of sex, I don't think of having intercourse myself. I think of being in a room with sexual energy and seeing where I fit in. I never had a dominant-submissive fantasy, but I fell in love with the man, not the role. And so to— in order to have sexual attention from Ernest, I needed to learn his love language. Luckily, I'm very, very— I'm a universal adapter when it comes to sex, like a stem cell.

I got it.

And so if I like you, if I'm interested in sex with you and you have a particular way of doing it, I'm happy to learn that way in because I'm always fascinated with what gets people going. Like you, it's like, oh, wow.

Totally. Yeah. No, I'm actually the same way.

And so some people would think, oh, what is that like?

You're just following? No, no, I'm open.

I'm open. I'm consenting adults. Otherwise, you know, no one's cheating, no one is lying. We're all here on purpose, and we know why we're here. I'm down for anything within reason. I mean, you know, I have some hard limits, but everybody does. So turns out that the kind of sex Ernest likes to have is, for me, super swoony, swoon-inducing. And for the— oh, he's the only man I've ever slept with that doesn't get boring. Um, every other guy, it's like twice and done.

Can we clone them?

Like, please, I've been trying.

You've never been bored of all the—

never been bored—

men partners? I know, I'm sure a lot of people have asked you.

And the most exciting man I like to have sex with, 4 times a year, only if I don't talk to them in between time. So to find someone I want to— I live with— I— so we have a— we have a— we work together, we're married, and then the hot sex is just crazy after 4. I just— crazy. It's crazy.

That's That's amazing that you guys are able to get together.

It's crazy.

I mean, what is the secret then?

Well, in our particular case, it just, it happens to be that our, our, our, that our desires align, even though the, the template in which we, with which we express them really comes from me and from the, from the DS place. But as far as the things that we actually do, we just do a lot of interesting, fun, different things. It's never the same twice.

Always.

See, that's what I But think about it. There. There are. There are five behaviors. There's hugging and kissing, sucking and. And hugging, tugging. No, no, no, no. There's kissing and hugging and sucking and, and. And massage. There's five behaviors. There are three orifices for females and two for men. And six groupings. It's all been done, right? So we. We hug and we kiss and we suck and we. And he gives head and everything.

We do all those sometimes. Ask me, do you people ever have, like, regular sex.

That's what I just asked you.

Yeah, well, we do, but we do foreplay at the same time.

So, so if the average length of sex is 15 minutes— kiss, kiss, hug, hug, he gets erect, they move to intercourse, he comes, maybe she does, they fall asleep. So for— so if we play for 90 minutes, there's 20 minutes of looking at porn and having a drink, and there's 20— and then so there's, there's sucking and fucking and beating and spanking. And so we maybe mix it up, so there's still In 90 minutes of play, there may be 35 cumulative minutes of intercourse, maybe 40, and the rest is other things, right? So we're just— it's a party, right?

I love it. It's a party every time.

Yes, it is.

Seriously, you are right now, you have like people listening, doing, how the hell can I get that? Can I get that? Not if they're even into it.

It's about— it's what we give attention to. We, right, we honor.

It's learned. It's a set of learnable skills. It is a skill set.

Because like I said, not everyone's— they always— I mean, I mean, a million times I woke up this morning, I had 3 press requests. How do we spice it up in the bed? I mean, really, like, you want to show— well, you should take a vacation. You can get away with it. But, but there's more to it. It's more about communicating and discussing and picking the right partner that you know has the same sexual preference, similar.

And not expecting that the new sex spontaneity, mutual lust all the time is going to be able to be able to hold off. Right.

No, you're going to have to use your imagination in addition to all your other parts. I mean, that's going to have to be in there. And one thing I would say right at the beginning, there is not everything that we do and not everything that we know about what we do would be applicable to most people's relationships. If you are not in some way bent in that direction, it's not going to work for you. It's not going to turn you on. However, there is something that is a practice that is part of what we do that I think is adaptable to every kind of relationship, which is negotiated, communicated, understanding in advance of what it is that you want to do. That's the thing that's absolutely necessary. Yes, that's absolutely necessary for what we do because it involves safety, right? You know, it involves people's comfort level and not taking them too far out of their comfort zone. A little bit is okay. Too much, not okay. So you gotta know all that stuff up front. Well, I think that would be a thing that what we call, if you'll pardon the expression, vanilla couples could also stand to do.

I agree, and I feel like there should be some kind of intake form when you start dating someone because I feel like so many people are mismatched sexually. I mean, 'cause they don't understand that the first 9 months, a year, it's amazing, and then all of a sudden they're like, I feel like every day people wake up and they find out that the world isn't flat. They're like, oh my God, I don't know what to do, we've been together and now we don't have sex anymore, and I'm not attracted to her, she doesn't want it, he doesn't want it. I'm like, people, this happens, this is normal, this is natural, how do you avoid that?

People expect sex to just happen. The media supports it just happening. TV, movies, it just happens. We didn't think about it. Ernest and I think about it. We make date night, so we know that on Friday at 5 o'clock, between 5 o'clock and 5:30, whatever time we start, there is the daytime, then there's setting up the space, setting out the— Right, it's part of your ritual.

And that really does get you in the space.

It does, it does. It's like foreplay.

Ritual isn't sacred, it allows the sacred to emerge. So what we Respecting each other is we respect our sexual life together enough to make space for it and give it our full attention. Computers are off, phones are off, nothing— if it's not bleeding or on fire, it can wait.

Right, exactly. Turn the phones off. People always say that they just, you know, they can't make time because they don't prioritize it. I think that people have to start talking about sex very, very early on because then you won't have all the— you know, if you're mismatched sexually but you've been together and you've kids and the whole thing, you don't see how you can get out of it. And you're never gonna change. So if you want it more, she might— you decide you want something different and you can't talk her into having a threesome or having some kind of kink, it's— I don't know, you can't talk someone into it. Well, you could try like saying, let's watch porn and see what interests you, but these are things that you got to figure out before you walk down the aisle, before you make a commitment. And I'm just wondering, like, what— like, you know, I try to say we'll talk about it, but people are so uncomfortable talking about sex, which is why they're emailing me with 10-page letters. I'm like, what? Talk to your partner. They can't. They don't.

We don't give people the skills.

The thing is that with the kind of sex that we do, with BDSM sex, you don't have the option of not communicating, right? There are risks involved. In fact, there are various terms to describe what it is we do. The current one, the currently trending one, is called risk-aware consensual kink. Okay, RACK for short. I like that. Got a nice ring to it. Before that, it used to be safe, sane, and consensual, but I always thought the word sane Yeah, I'm not so sure with those things, people. Look, people who wear latex in July, ah, you know, and think it's good, think it's fun.

I don't know, I've lived in San Francisco for 20 years, I'm like, yeah, who doesn't wear latex in July? But no, I get what you're saying.

But as far as—

But what you do is that we're gonna get to— I get that, that's, yeah, of course.

As far as the awareness that's necessary to do this safely and to do this in a manner that's not psychologically harmful and that isn't going to get you arrested, you really do have to sit down and go through that questionnaire. You don't have the choice. Of not confronting the question of what's okay and what isn't okay.

Right.

Then after you've gotten those boundaries laid down, within those boundaries, got incredible freedom because you know where those limits are and anything inside of them is okay.

Right, exactly. So what if someone— a couple's just starting out and they're thinking, God, you know, I just would like to tie up my partner, or I'd like to blindfold her or him. And how do you—

there's a lot of terrific literature out there. Believe me, the world has changed greatly since when I began in all of this. There's lots of good stuff to read. There's lots of good stuff and bad stuff online. That has become, in my opinion, our greatest challenge is how we are going to deal with it.

I know.

Huge influx of people who are fascinated by this.

Fascination. Yeah.

And, you know, anybody can represent themselves as anything in that situation. You don't have to prove, as you did when I got in, you had to sort of prove that you were at least serious about learning how to do it safely and correctly. Now you don't have to prove anything. If you can convince someone to go along with it, you can probably you know, get them to do that, and the results might be okay or they might be not okay. So we have some challenges of our own. I mean, when I first joined an SM group in Los Angeles, which was at that time the preeminent Los Angeles SM group, it had 64 members. This was back in 1983. Well, by the time I eventually had been, you know, head of that group for 6 terms, it had grown to 750 members, and I thought that was a kind of an unwieldy number.

That's a lot. What year are we talking about?

Yeah, by the time 1986, '87 or '88 rolled around, it suddenly became, well, you know, after Madonna came along and started wearing her underwear on stage, everything changed. It changed the world. And all kinds of people got interested in this thing, and it became a dynamic idea that attracted a lot of attention, and some of the attention was good and some of the attention was not good. Some of the people it attracted were just right for it, and thank heaven they found it.

What was going on in this group? Was this, these your partners in the group, or was it more about supporting each other?

It was actually mostly about education. It was about learning techniques because there is a technical aspect to this. If you're going to do BDSM sex in a way that's going to be mutually satisfying, there are things that you need to learn how to do.

Like, break it down, like if you're a beginner.

Well, if you're a beginner, the first thing you need to learn how to do is to get access to one another's fantasies. What do you picture yourself doing? What role do you picture yourself in? What sounds like it would be exciting? Then you begin to address the practical questions of of how much of that fantasy can you actually make real within your skill level. Now, you have the advantage these days of being able to attend all kinds of seminars and events and courses and so on and so forth where people who have been doing this for years can show you how to do the thing that you want to do. But you will still have to focus on acquiring the skills necessary. I used to teach a lot of bondage workshops because one of the things I used to do is rig bondage professionally for photographs and so on. And I would start it out with a room full of bright-eyed, interested young folk. And I'd have all this gear and junk laid out on the table in front of me, all kind of ropes and chains and stuff. And I'd say, so you want to do some bondage? What is the first thing you need? Is it this? And I'd hold up some rope. Nope, not that. Put it down. How about this? I'd hold up a pair of handcuffs. Nope, not that. What you need is this. And then I'd hold up a pair of paramedic scissors. I'd say the first thing you need to know is how to get people out of things. Very quickly, if somebody's— if somebody starts to feel anxious, if they start to feel uncomfortable in any way, you got to get them out of there first. So think ahead. You have to learn to think ahead. Is that the sweet spot in BDSM? Is that place where your instincts, your physiological desires, and your skills all come together? Because they all have to be working together for it to really be a quality experience, right?

Okay, that's good. That's good for starting out. Like, people who are— what if it's just basic that they're thinking, you know, okay, I gotta bring up Fifty Shades of Grey?

I knew we were going there.

I had to, I had to, I had to, and I hate— and I thought on the way over, I don't want to, but I am, because that's just— I think now it's become part of the consciousness, it's part— it's been part of the national discussion that women— and I don't know so much that they want that, it's more about— I mean, some might, they might be thinking, God, I wish that my partner would do this, and I don't know how to talk to him about it. It's not that I want a dungeon, it's not that I want like what you guys have at your house, which I'm sure is amazing, It is. But it's just a little bit, like maybe a spanking or a, you know, how do you communicate that?

By asking. You know, one of my earlier partners said, "How do you have such tremendous success getting people to do this?" Meaning women, not people, women.

He's heterosexual.

Yes, I am, relentlessly. You know, "How do you get so many women to do this?" I said, "I ask them." Right. You know, it really, it's surprising when you put it to people, you know, as one intelligent person to another, "Have you ever considered doing this and would you be interested?" You'd be surprised how many say, yeah, I've actually thought about it a few times, kind of wondered about it. Okay, well, that's the big— curiosity is the beginning.

Well, this is the thing, because I have a question for you, because I— because you said that most, most women, most partners say yes.

Yes. Okay, I get turned down. I've gotten turned down, you know, 3, 4 times in my life. No, come on.

No, but I was reading stuff about, about, about the story of O, and, and they said that the themes in this book depict the true nature of women.

No, they do not.

I want to say that that's what like one of the people who were on the book, one of the critics, and do you, so I'm, but I'm asking, you've had so many women who are consensual, do you think, not that so many women want to be into BDSM, but they want to be dominated?

I think some do and some don't. I absolutely think it's, I don't think it's gender related. In fact, you know, gender politics bores my ass off, has nothing to do with anything. One of the things I really liked about the SM community when I first got into it was, was that it was the first place I ever was where gender carried no behavioral expectations whatsoever. You know, that we had dominant men and submissive women, we had dominant women and submissive men, we had dominant transvestites, we had all kinds of things.

I know, but I guess you're talking about like the story of O, that that was this quintessential—

Well, there are those who want to believe that, and I, you know, I reject those politics.

I mean, I agree, I totally agree. I was I was wondering what you thought. So, do you remember when you first read the story of O?

Yeah.

Okay.

I certainly do. I read it when I was about 15. I got it through the mail from Grove Press. Yay, Barney Rosset. His spirit is with us today. And I read it and I found it absolutely riveting and fascinating and, you know, couldn't put it down, which of course since it's only 200 pages long, you don't have to put it down. You can get it done in about a day. And then at the end of it, I threw it against the wall. It was like, what? That's what we were leading up to?

Right.

I'm not going to— it's no spoiler to tell you that it has no end. I can't possibly spoil the end for you because there isn't one. Basically, if you know the history of how it was written, it was never intended to be published. So basically, at some point, the author kind of just ran out of steam on it and couldn't get the act off stage. And so they have a kind of Michael O'Donoghue, and then they were all run over by a truck kind of ending. So it's just really The book has some great things about it and it has some things that are very frustrating. The characters are not well developed. The female characters are better developed than the male characters, but that's not saying much because the male characters are absolutely cardboard cutouts. There's nothing, there is nothing about the two men to whom O gives herself as a slave that would make any sense at all to any rational person. What would make either of these guys attractive to that degree. Well, there probably was something, but bear in mind that the person who wrote that book didn't much like BDSM.

They didn't call it—

they called it sadomasochism.

It was a kind of a challenge, right? It was like a love letter, right?

She was in love with a guy who was into it, right? And she was not. And what she basically— they were both writers, and she said, well, I can't do the things that you like to do, but I can write the kind of book that you like to read. And so she wrote it for him as a birthday present, read it to him, and then, being as he was an author of some repute, he more or less, and things being as they were in France at that time, he said, nope, it must be published. And it was, she was like, but, but, and the next thing you knew it was published.

Published, right?

Yes.

Okay, so then what about Master of O? So did you, how much did you change the characters and how much did you change the, it's from the male perspective. Yes. Because you felt the male characters were underdeveloped.

I thought they were cardboard.

They were cardboard.

Right, right. I mean, I read it so long ago.

So unappealing, you know, there was nothing about them that anyone would like, much less want to do. All the things that she did for them. So I wanted to provide some kind of a more believable example of a more complex kind of personality who happens to be dominant, likes that kind of sexuality, and who would attract a high-powered, capable, accomplished woman of the type that O was in the original book.

Right.

I think that O, of all the characters in my book, is the most similar to the original, you know, model than any of the others. The others are all completely different. The guys are completely different. Very different. But there were certain things about O that were recognizable as a personality type that I would encounter later in life. You know, a lot of the people who prefer to play in the submissive role and prefer their sex to be in the submissive role are extremely high-powered, driven, ambitious, you know, very, very orderly kinds of personalities, right? I mean, with a clear plan for everything. That's the kind of person who really needs a vacation.

Exactly.

They need an hour and a half vacation from that.

I totally understand.

Yep. They need to let go of the wheel for a minute so somebody else can drive. And that's basically what, what you get to do. So I really wanted that character. I wanted the character of O to be, I wanted it to be very, very clear, very clear that this was what she, that this was what she was all about.

Right.

And in fact, she was all about it herself. She lived a fetishistic life, right? On, even when she was unpartnered, it was just part of who, it was part of her identity. And then she met a guy who was kind of like that too. A hard driving, successful guy who was just—

modern day Los Angeles, right? Because they love that.

Which has some similarities to Paris in 1953. It's a place of self-reinvention. People come here to become somebody that they weren't before. And there are a whole lot of people out here doing that.

It's still happening every day, right?

Well, and Paris in 1954 was kind of like that. They'd had a rough 10 years or so before that. And there were a lot of people who really wanted to kind of be somebody other than whoever they were before that. So as France emerged as it had not really been before as a center of popular culture, film, fashion, journalism, all kinds of stuff of that kind. And indeed, it's no accident that in both books, in Story of O and in Master of O, O is a— in my book, of course, she's a pornographic photographer.

Okay.

But in the original, she was a fashion photographer, but for the time, you know, the connection was still there.

Right.

And there's an interesting sequence in the original where she does a photo shoot for fashion purposes, and she sees for the first time, having had the experience herself, the fetishistic implications of fashion.

Right, absolutely.

That when she puts a ribbon choker around a model's neck, it might be a collar, you know, that she sees this now with new eyes. Right.

So how much did you read? Did you read the story again, go back and forth, or was it more like you just took the basic— because I'm going to fully admit that I have not read it yet, and I'm very upset about it. I'm going to read it like tomorrow, which is why I'm— It's 900 pages long.

You're not going to read it tomorrow.

Tomorrow. Okay, people can download it though, masterofo.com.

Yes, you can download it tonight.

Quick.

Okay, good. I don't feel so bad because I was outside. No, masterofo.com. masterofo.com. Just go download it now because you've got amazing reviews on it on your site and everything. We're going to read a little excerpt in, in a little bit. Um, but so how much did you, did you change this? Like, was it more like just going off the story? Was it like more modern-day BDSM? Do you think it's changed?

Oh, I think it's changed a great deal.

How is it? How so?

Well, Well, one thing that I really disliked about the original book, and it was not necessarily the author's fault, it was something that was imposed in an introduction written by the guy who made her publish it. It was his dismissal of the idea that there was any physical pleasure for the submissive partner.

Exactly. That's what I—

okay. It was all about giving it up for love, that you suffered to love, you were a martyr to love. Oh boy. Nobody—

so different. I mean, right, because she was— she has discernible pleasure in this.

Yes.

She wants it.

She's satisfied. Yeah, she has— you could say she has discernible pleasure. Oh my God.

That's whatever. I mean, I've read everything about— I mean, today I've been like obsessed.

Every 3 pages she has discernible pleasure. Her whole life is about that. No, these are very hedonistic characters and they really enjoy themselves. Let me tell you, nobody ever took a second whipping out of love.

How long did it take? No, how long did it take you to write the book?

1 year. Exactly.

Exactly. Like, and what's your writing style? Is it every, every day you sit and write?

Yes, I am one of those, you know, you're disciplined like that. That isn't that— some people have to discipline themselves to write, or like people have to discipline themselves to do SM. They should probably take up another hobby, right? If I were one of people who found writing difficult, I'd do something else.

Right. So you've always found it. Yeah. You like it. You enjoy it. You sit, do you like a room that you sit in and you— Yeah.

And it's, it, yeah, it's actually my, my desk is in our play space.

Oh, okay.

So I can look up and, you know, there it all is to remind me in case I'd forgotten. But, uh, really writing this was a lot of fun because I got to use a lot of bits and pieces of a lot of people I really knew from that book.

Nina, she's in there. Yeah.

She's in there in, in, in, in a role that's—

I, I—

what I did was I cast against type. She's in there playing a role that's really not much like her. And, uh, I did, I did that with lots of people. There, there are some recognizable folks in there, people who really— there's some recognizable people. If you know who they are, you'll recognize them. And it's interesting that when some of them were asked to blurb the book, there was a sort of moment of discomfort when they said, sort of familiar, but okay, I'll do it anyway.

Was that me? Was that you? I know you've had a lot of partners. Okay, when we come back, we're going to hear from Nina. Um, I got some words from our sponsors here. We want to keep this show free, and I just would, would be great if you could support our sponsors. Let me tell you about Promescent. Did you know 1 in 3 men suffers from premature ejaculation? Well, now you don't have to. Promescent is a quickly absorbing delay spray that allows you to have the sex you want. You don't even have to think about baseball or your great-aunt Margaret with the furry mustache. You can focus on your partner's hot body, especially now that you have the time time to make her orgasm, or him orgasm. Also, Promescent closes the arousal gap between men and women. You might get there faster than she would like, so Promescent helps you last twice as long. Thousands of urologists are recommending Promescent, the only FDA-approved treatment for premature ejaculation. Go to promescent.com to find out more. That's Promescent, P-R-O-M-E-S-C-E-N-T.com. It's not rising to the top that's a challenge, it's staying there. Also, our sponsors, which you guys can— which you guys I'm sure are familiar with, is Good Vibrations.

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Oh yeah, we love Good Vibrations. So one of the reasons, again, you're able to listen for free is because of the incredible people at goodvibes.com. They carry all the best sex toy brands. You can get the Rabbit Habit from Vibratax, the Fun Factory Amarino, which is one of my new faves, um, a Pocket Rocket. You can even get the strongest, most orgasmic vibrator of all time, the Magic Wand. Uh, use code GVEMILY for 20% off, or go to my site sexwithemily.com, click on the Good Vibrations banner to see my favorite toys. You know I've tried them all. That's goodvibes.com, coupon code GVEmily20. Thanks again everyone for supporting my sponsors. Awesome. You've been very— I know, right?

If I hadn't been— again, if I had not been exhibitionistic enough for porn, I would have gotten a job there.

Yeah, I know.

They started when I was 18 and I just loved the idea of them all along.

I love— yeah, they're, they're amazing. So go buy some toys today. And we're good, we got some callers coming in, so we've got some— so we've got the first, the first call. Hello, Justin.

Hey.

Hey Justin, how you doing? How can I help you? You're on with Ernest Green, Nina Hartley, myself. We're all here to help you.

All right. Um, so I was hanging out with one of my ex-girlfriends today, and after the fact that I kissed her, she tells me that she had contracted herpes from one of her ex-boyfriends after we broke up.

Okay.

And I didn't know if I could contract it from mouth-to-mouth contact or would I have to have, like, genital contact.

I mean, if she was having an inflammation— she— but she has genital herpes, correct?

Yes.

Okay. I mean, if she wasn't, the chance that you probably didn't contract it if you didn't have sex with her, if you have intercourse with her, you wouldn't get it just from, from kissing her. No. But, you know, you— if you you have to take necessary measures if you— obviously, if you do have sex with her. But unless she was having, you know, cold sores or there was some kind of breakout in her mouth, I— you don't run the risk.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're good. Anything else, Nina, that you guys want to add to that? Do you know what I mean?

I think that's, that's pretty straightforward, except for just, you know, look before you leap. Another reason to have sex with the lights on. Any broke— any broken skin, just do something else that night, right? It doesn't matter. Even if it quote-unquote only a shaving bump. An open skin is open skin. Don't have sex with any, any sores, cuts, abrasions, nicks, anything like that.

You should be investigating it ahead of time. So that's what I say to you, Justin. No worries, I think you're fine.

All right, thank you.

Okay, sure, thanks so much for calling.

Okay, so I wasn't ready for that at all.

What? No, because it wasn't about your book. I know people just calling with questions sometimes, you know, it happens.

You know, I can answer that question.

I know you could. I figured, you know, hey, I wanted to ask a question. Oh, go ahead.

Ernest, when you meet people, yes, do you size them up immediately and say like, uh, that guy's a bottom or top or like submissive? I mean, do you, do you try and like— Emily, doing the show with her tonight, are you—

yeah, what do you think about me?

You think she wants to be in charge?

I think you're a switch.

Really?

Yep.

Depending on your partner.

Depending on your partner.

I'm not, I'm not a— I've never taught— I would— I have a partner that I've been with that wanted me to be more dominant And I just, I've never done it.

I don't think it would be your natural inclination, but I think if you could see that it actually was pleasing to the person you were doing it with and that you could acquire the necessary skill set to do it very easily, I think you'd enjoy it.

It's on my list.

Because let me tell you, if you're a giving person, this is what I always say, you're a giving person. I like to think that if you are that kind of dominant, the fact that it is obviously pleasing to your partner is reason enough to do it.

Exactly.

You know, so yeah, so I would say that you would probably be able to.

No, don't let him lie to you.

Are.

There's a line in the book that I will let the people read, but I will— we both like looking at women, and I— he's 100% kinky. I'm 40% kinky, 40% poly, and 20% vanilla. So I'm a more— I have a wider palette of sex.

You've got that pretty broken down. Do you still have sex with other people?

Oh yeah, threesomes, threesomes, and then we each have solo partners, because I need some vanilla on the side, right?

But he said We're non-monogamous. That was a condition, right?

So he had to be there.

And it works. People never think it works.

People, it works. It works if that is your orientation.

Exactly.

If you look at a beautiful woman on the street that I know physically the type that he would go for, right, and he'll look at her and go, oh, nice, because she doesn't— he, he can tell if a woman has that energy, the aura, right? The, the, you could—

you have the kink.

Yeah, he has kink. I don't— I'm like a puppy. Hi, naked people, where?

Right.

And he's like, no.

Her.

And he's in—

you're right, you know, and he nails it. And then you nail her, maybe.

Hopefully. Yeah, and I'll help.

Right, right. I love that, you guys.

I like playing the torture. I like playing— see, so when we're— I'm, again, I'm a, I'm a stem cell, so I adapt to my partner's energy. So when we're alone, I'm always playing from the submissive role, and I really like it. It's very personal, romantic.

What do you like about it?

I like— it's like a constant— it's always a romance novel cover where she's swooning and he's his big bad self. It's like, oh, it's like he's reading your mind. So the sex we have is always I had that first time sex just taken away. Oh my gosh.

So how aggressive, how intense is it?

Oh, it's intense. I'm masochistic. There's whipping, caning, beating, beating, air quotes, all consensual.

All consensual, right.

This is not, this is hitting with implements designed to hit bodies with. So leather whips, riding crops, rattan canes, his hand sometimes, sometimes a loose fist.

Let me tell you, a butt is a lot tougher than hand.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so I, I like— our BDSM is violence without anger and pain without fear. So it is very, air quotes, violent. He pushes me around, he hits me, he shoves me against things, but it is like a dance, like an Apache dance.

Have you ever been hurt?

Um, no, actually. One time you bruised me. I was just having— it was in such a space, and he, he stopped before I wanted to.

Usually I'm the one who says, 'That's enough of that.' I'm He's—

in 14 years, you've marked me more than an hour twice. So he—

wow. So never any marks or bruises? Because I had a guy slap my ass once, like, 4 times, and I had a bruise. It was just very good.

You know, people hurt me more easily.

But also, and also, if you know how boxers' hands get tough enough.

Yeah, yeah, you get tough.

You get—

you can get iron butt called iron butt.

Oh, iron butt, right?

Yeah.

I mean, they're like squats at the gym.

There are some women I've been with who you really—

I would wail on them, sure.

That the next— and I said, you know, and you want to—

even Monday, Monday's playdate, you thought for sure she was— an hour later, clean as a whistle.

Okay, so no, can we talk about the jealousy thing here? Not like— no, you're like, yeah, Monday's playdate. So you came home and told her about it and you're cool together? Oh, the two of you? Okay, I thought there was someone else you were with.

No, no. So, so the way that we are, when I first got with him, the condition upon relationship was non-monogamy because I dealt with that my first marriage.

Right.

No, so not cut out for it.

Not cut out And he's loyal, he is fierce, he's fiercely in love with me, but it's not for us. We don't need our sex to be always in the same body as our romance. Now, sex with him alone is clearly the best of the best, absolutely. But you know you're cut out for non-monogamy if the statement, "The more people I fuck, the more I love my partner," makes sense to you. Anybody can be fun once or once in a while, but fun all the time, that's a special person. I can have fun with anybody once, right?

Who are you? Hey, new body, right?

You know, or 4 times a year. Yeah, so that is just— that's just the chemistry.

I was just born without the jealousy gene.

I just don't know.

I had to heal mine to have the life I want. He never had it.

When people are jealous, when they tell me, you know, I'm kind of a jealous person, I asked them this one question. Tell me one thing in all of human history, one good thing that's come about as a result of someone being jealous. I can't think of one myself. I mean, I don't— I fail to see it as a productive aspect, right? Anything about human nature. I never liked—

but I hear people who will make their partner a little bit jealous to get their partner's attention.

Yes.

And so that's all the mate guarding and the mate guarding bullshit, right? And I— they're the difference between love and lust. And so the companionship and intimacy you have the long-term partner is crazy to get my attention.

You don't have to go to all that trouble.

No, it's just, you know, so people say, and people, I love about being married to a fetishist is I, I know that if I want behavior B, I will do behavior A, and if I do A, I'll get B. If I want C, I'll do D.

It's really, and you feel like all of your sexual needs are getting taken care of.

I am, partly because we're not monogamous.

So, right, because you're more— you're bisexual.

I'm bisexual. I do like having vanilla sex. I do like sometimes being in charge, and he does not switch. He's a heterosexual, not straight, and does not switch. I'm a top-heavy switch, right? You know, I don't need to beat boy butt, but I'm not saying I don't like it, right?

So how often are you guys with other people?

Ideally, we would have— ideally, we'd have one threesome a month and and solo date each month. So after 14 years, we still, we make room for sex once a week, and we value that. We prioritize that instead of movies, instead of going to the museum.

And let me also say that we have this knack, and maybe it comes something, there's something work-related in it, but whatever it is, when we get down to doing it, we become strangers to each other. That's part of the appeal of it.

Of the BDSM, is it? Yeah. Right.

Is that I become the dominant partner, she becomes the submissive partner. We are different people than the people who are sitting in the living room.

We don't talk a lot during, during our sex. It's not— some dominances use words. He is more— he's more— he's using, he's using my body to help me go where I want to go, right?

And where do you want to go?

I like feeling my partners— I like my partners to be their bad self, to be fully themselves. And so that's what you like, that you know that, right? I like to welcome that. I like to make it okay for that person to step up into that space. And he's someone who's absolutely fine with who he is.

I'm not your barking kind of dog.

So do you have intercourse after?

So, um, so after—

during—

walk me through a session.

Okay.

Um, even though they're not all the same?

No, no, but the basic template's the same. So, um, a basic sesh, um, there's pornography set out, he pours me a drink.

What kind of porn?

Um, illustrated, uh, single, single, really twisted, really twisted, sick, evil, dark cartoons. Cartoons? Drawings. Drawings. So don't worry about anyone's shoulders or does it— it's not a real person.

I don't worry about somebody being hurt. In fact, I edit a cartoon magazine that does this type, and we say no actual toons were harmed in the making of these comics.

Right. So, and so the setting up, I set up the room, there's going to be lube and baby wipes and gloves, and the vibrator's already stung.

And which vibrator?

A magic wand.

Um, yeah, but you will be collared, you will be cuffed.

I will, I will wear— I wear collar, my collar cuffs, and high heels.

Do you put them all on yourself?

Yeah, I do.

So then what do you wear?

Except for the collar, I put that on.

He puts a collar on me because that's a romantic thing. He kisses the back of my neck and locks the collar on. And then we— and he puts on his riding boots and his little, you know, envelope cap made of leather. We drink the drink.

Yeah, you could last a drink.

I like a single malt scotch, so I'm, I'm good for one.

I don't drink.

Yeah, I have a limit of one drink.

Okay.

And we're So, but once the hat goes on and the porn comes out, then all the discipline is all conversation is about sex. So if I think about, oh God, that thing next week, that has to wait.

You have to replace it, which is just a good tool for people during sex.

Yes, absolutely.

To do this well requires focus and concentration.

Right, right.

So you can't really be thinking about next week while you're doing it and have a good time.

Right, exactly. And that's, I wish that most people would transfer that into Just regular sex.

Right, but so, so, what, what, so for what we can, so, so all the sex, and then because of the role structure, he may say, you know, would you like XXX? It's not really a question. My answer is yes, sir.

Right.

But that doesn't mean she can't make suggestions. Would you find it amusing if I were to do such and such?

Right, so one thing, what keeps it fresh is you learn how to speak in a way that gives me full agency without breaking the role. This is the ultimate role play. So he's in charge and I'm— he's Fred and I'm Ginger. Well, Ginger can communicate. So I can't say, hey, Ernest, you know, scratch my back. But I can say, would sir like to see? And if he says yes, then that's a yes. If he says no, drop it. And so learn. So for me, the emotional practice of learning how not to argue within the scene, that took a minute. So what I like about the role playing is that It forms very firm fences within which to roam. And so then we get out of the living room, walk back to the— I may have a butt plug in, but they put it in a lewd manner.

What butt plug do you like these days?

My favorite one died. I don't even know the name.

In your butt?

No, almost, but no. The secret is to— everything is permitted except modesty. Right. So my job as a, my job as a air quote sex slave consensual, it's a game, is that lewdness is, I'm supposed to want to get some, my job is to be horny and into sex, so I get to, I'm free to—

So if I walk her back from the living room, let's say, to the play space. You walk her on a— No, I don't.

You hold my collar and, right.

Yeah, I might hold her collar or I might hold her arms behind her and of course she's gonna, you know, there are some kinds of dominance who really, I don't know what their problem is, but they don't like any kind of initiative on the part of their submissive partners, and they're missing out.

No, I don't get her.

Exactly. I've told her that her number one duty as a slave is to get some, right? So if I happen to be, you know, be standing behind her holding her arms and her hands are still available, she'll use them, right?

Oh well, yeah, what might happen? Oh my gosh.

And I will not fight it.

So, so in the back, so, um, yes, you said you put the butt plug in in a lewd manner and you didn't expand. What do you mean by that?

Um, well, I'll sprawl on my back on the couch and I'll lube it up and I'll lift my leg and hold butt cheek up and watch it go in. I'll dab the lube off with a baby wipe and, oh, sit down.

Ernest is watching this. Yes, that's his whole product switch.

And then that's pre-drink and pre-porn. So, so already it's like, hee hee, and I've cleaned up my butt. And right, there's a pre-flight checklist.

How do you clean it out?

Um, I use a— but I call it butt squeegee, but a, um, bulb syringe. Um, you don't— do not need to use an enema.

No, we're not— people have been asking a lot lately.

No, no, just clean up a lot of, uh, high-fiber diet and a lot of water so you have— right, so that part of your body is happy and regular. And then rinse out a few pieces that might be left, and it's a finger's length or dick's length, it's fine, right? And then, so, but the sex is—

we—

I'm masochistic, I like being hit with things. And so, and what he does in what order, it's— that's up to him.

And you never know what's coming.

That's the fun part.

I don't really have an agenda. I usually go in there and see what's like an art.

Seems like, yeah, you know, some days it's Some days it's the whip, some days the cane and the whip, some days it's the horse, some days it's the suspension, some days it's being bounced against the wall.

I mean, and are you getting more and more turned on?

Oh, for sure, because he's a massively good cunnilingus.

Oh, so you're stopping and doing—

oh yeah, absolutely. It's a little fucking, a little whipping, a little bondage, a little fucking, a little flay show, mix it up, a little flay show, a little fucking, a little whipping, a little cunnilingus, a little fucking.

Right, see, and this is what I'm saying is that people— what if you're just like vanilla but you want to introduce a little role play? How would How would you suggest that to people?

I would start with, you can have, you know, a bowl with roles. So, you know, often roleplay has to do with power dynamic.

Absolutely.

Teacher-student, cop and DD, doctor-patient. So basically in roleplay, someone is, we're agreeing that you're taking the lead and we're agreeing that I'm taking the follow and that within reason, I'm probably going to say yes, but you know what not to ask me so you don't get annoyed. No, he's not gonna ask me, right? So that's that limit thing. So I know, so it's the being good dominant is giving the right orders and the right orders, the right, the right orders are fun to do what they want.

They'll always agree, they'll be very obedient.

So I like that idea, just pick it, like, oh my God, go home and I'm just gonna become a nurse and he's gonna know, no, pick it up. I like that. And then just play with it and go with it. You might laugh at first, but just start, it's just a way of having sex with, like, kind of like having sex.

Yeah, but it's, you know, changing it up. It's not arbitrary for I mean, if you are—

if you guys are different, I'm just talking about people—

for people who are real, who are really drawn to BDSM sexuality and DS sexuality, they're usually pretty much— even people who switch are usually pretty much one way or the other. They prefer to be in one role or the other and generally are better at it. You know, you're right, you do best the thing that you like best, right? So this is the thing that I like best. And generally, you know, listen, we start out with We start out sometimes with some kissing, making out on the couch and heavy petting. Yes, you always do that.

So I mean, but also, also he—

but when we get, when we get in there, sometimes, you know, I'll just, uh, I'll have a riding crop under my arm and I'll have you get up on the bed and I'll— on the bondage bed— and I'll give you a few whaps on the ass.

But do you ever feel like, no, I don't really want to right now? No.

If either one of us doesn't want to, we just don't do it. You know, okay, don't do it at all. Tell you something.

We have to have you read the— yeah, were you gonna say something? Okay.

All I was going to say is that you really have to be in the mood to do this because it really requires some concentration.

Yeah, absolutely. You can't do it, which is the best kind of things in life, is when you're— when you are focused and in the moment. That's because—

and one thing, let me tell you one thing about being a dominant guy that's sort of challenging is that you need to be able to keep a hard-on while you're fiddling around with ropes and whips and stuff. So you have to do that well, but you've got to focus on— you've got to focus on the sexual aspect of it. You got Your inner movie is saying, everything I'm doing here is leading up to something that's going to feel really good, right? That's, you know, and if you can keep that going, you're good.

As a submissive, uh, playing from the submissive role, my job is to be in the eternal now. His job is 3 steps ahead.

Exactly.

The dominant—

so nice to be like, just let it all go.

The dominant sets the agenda, the submissive sets the tone, the mood, right? You know, am I— and some— and depending on the day, some days I'm really strong, meaning I I can take more beating the other day. I am generally masochistic. And that does not mean I like pain.

It's not pain.

Pain is not pain.

If you experience it as pain, it's not being done right.

It's pleasure.

It's intensity.

Hey guys, speaking of pain, safe word.

Yeah, well, I—

Do you guys use the same safe word over and over again?

We don't ever.

You want to know something funny about that? I have over the years had many partners to whom I have given safe words, and I've never heard one used. That means you're good at it. No, people really don't. Very rarely go that far. The thing is, the public confusion about this is that it's about pain. No, it's not about pain, it's about pleasure. So when are you going to use your safe word? When you're having fun, you know. For as long as it still feels good, you're not going to use it.

That's a good testament to your skills.

You might say yellow when your foot's going to sleep.

Yeah, right. Something—

red, yellow, green—

things do happen. I mean, yeah, if something turns out to be—

my job as a submissive is not being a doormat. It is a verb. Submit is a verb. And so passivity is not welcome. So he says— Ernest says discomfort should never distract from the torture. So if my foot's asleep, I'm all in my foot, I can't— I don't care what you're doing to my vulva, right? So I need to say, sir, my foot, right? Yes. And this— and the smart dominant will go, one moment please, and he will re— he'll get it to go and fix that, right?

That's your job.

And you go and you get back to it.

There's also something there, you know, there is One thing I like to say is that if you know one of us, to know one of us is to know one of us. We're all different.

Right, that's true too.

And I'm a particular kind of dominant that's, you know, I see other kinds around. There's a certain sort, and unfortunately I think they've been influenced by popular media, who believe that what they need to be is stern and mean.

Disapproving, withholding.

And not acting like that.

You have to find out in yourself.

That's not me, I've always got a big grin on my face and I'm having a good time.

Do you think that people will be learning they could learn from Master of O. A lot of your reviews in the book are from women, like you've got some influential— Dita Von Teese, Margaret Cho, Carol Queen. Do you think your book is more for women, men? You think everyone can learn from it?

Well, I'd like to think—

And be enjoyed and turned on and hot?

Sure.

Yes, thank you. I like to think it does all that.

Let me say that my intentions here were not educational.

Right.

I didn't want to write that book. No, but it's—

I'm not saying you can't have— Yeah.

But I think that— If you've never seen me geek out, I think what you can learn from reading this book is something about the people, something about the personalities who are drawn to this life. You'll learn a lot of technical stuff about what they do.

But I think that's what people want to know about the psychology. They're confused by it.

What I like about this book is there's no naive person. There's no stand-in for the innocent.

Which is different than the original Sopranos.

Did you watch Sopranos?

Yes.

The first episode, you're dropped into the world. Exactly. You're dropped into this world.

I love it. Okay, well, we've only got a few more minutes. So let's read an excerpt from Master of O.

Okay, this takes the beginning of the second chapter. O and Ray— Stephen and Ray are half-brothers. O is Ray's partner for the evening. Ray has given O to Stephen, and O has accepted this challenge. He has left her to go change into a robe and expects to find her nude in the living room after he comes back. From the long bar of robes and dressing gowns, he continued today's theme with a heavy black silk Turnbull and Asser, its wide quilted shawl lapels and matching cuffs piped in red. How many pairs of skull-embroidered velvet slippers could one man wear in a lifetime? Stephen's own extravagances made him cringe occasionally, but now was not the time for introspection. Always expecting him to be his bad self, what most women wanted from him, he lowered the lights and headed out into tonight's arena. As expected, he found O in the living room, displayed as precisely as all the artifacts he kept under glass, stripped to her red-soled pumps, stay-ups, the long gloves she'd impulsively slipped back on, and the collar around her neck. O knelt on her high heels in the middle of the dragon rug. Her knees were wide apart, her hands still laced behind her head like the condemned awaiting execution, shoulders squared, breasts out, chin straight, eyes lowered. When Stephen stopped and stared, A slight tremor washed over her, though of course she didn't turn her head to look at him. She was the one there to be looked at. Stephen was perfectly rude about taking in the view, making her stand at attention, walking around her, looking high and low. Yes, there were surprises. Oh, could her rouge have been a shade darker so the rings stood out more? But they were far from inconspicuous. Though only an inch and a half in diameter, they were wicked thick, agonizingly stretched from an initial 10-gauge to their current 6. Plain stainless with black hematite captive bead closings, they clearly wanted to be grabbed, weighted, tied, and made to hurt. Stephen took in the slender shoulders and spectacular natural teardrop breasts of the type for which women in this town paid vast sums and still didn't get. O's belly, flat and cut from fanatical exercise, her perfectly sculpted pink lower lips, the high tight buttocks, and the long straight legs with slender ankles all comprised a fine inventory and Both of them knew it. Stephen could see O's pulse thumping in her carotids. A drop of sweat trickled in each armpit. He was quite certain she was dripping elsewhere too. The tightening, throbbing bulge under his silk robe was just as apparent to the two of them. Stephen let her stay at attention as he plucked the half joint from the ashtray and fired up with the big giant lighter, inhaling a big hit. He approached O at leisure, his head wreathed in smoke. He seemed so accustomed to having whatever he wanted, absolutely devoid of shame or doubt, and she was alone with him at last. Nothing stood between him and what he wanted of her. He stopped in front of O's face, tracing her cheek with a fingertip. I love this moment, he said quietly, so full of promise.

Hmm, I like it. Well, so everyone's got to read—

okay, you gotta go to masterofo.com, buy yourself an ebook, and come the 1st of July, there will be a paperback tag version.

Oh really? Okay, I didn't know that. Okay, well, okay, got it. Okay, so Nina Hartley, we'll plug— what's your website? That's the best one.

Nina.com. And you can follow me on Twitter. Nina.com.

Just Nina? You got Nina.com? 20 years ago. Jesus, that was good.

She fought for it.

Well, the one good thing my exes did for me. And if you want to follow me on Twitter, it's @NinaLand. Disneyland only. Nina Land.

Okay, got it. Okay, thank you, Ernest Green. Thank you so much for being on the show. You guys You gotta come back. As always, you're always welcome on the show. Um, Anderson, what up? Thanks for being with me tonight.

Yeah, of course.

I love you, mean it. Everyone follow me— Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all that stuff— Sex with Emily. And thanks so much for listening. Was it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com. I'm Emily from sexwithemily.com. Crazy Girl Products carries unique pheromone-infused products that scientifically make you hotter and feel more confident. I love their new After Dark especially their Lip Nip Tingle. To find out what that means, go to crazygirlproducts.com, use coupon code EMILY25, and get 25% off your purchase when you buy something at crazygirlproducts.com.

Perhaps play a little game called Just a Tip, just for a second, just to see how it feels.

Hey, this is Jordan Harbinger, host of The Art of Charm podcast, the number one dating and relationship advice podcast in iTunes.

I'm Emily Morse, host of the Sex with Emily podcast, the number one sex and relationship podcast on iTunes. ITunes and at sexwithemily.com. And this is Just the Tip.

You mentioned on another tip about mutual masturbation. What exactly is that? I think a lot of people are probably getting some interesting visuals here.

I love mutual masturbation because first of all, masturbation is also a form of sex, but when you do it with a partner, it can be a great way to share intimacy and get some other sexual secrets. So if you're masturbating and she's masturbating next to you, You can see how she touches herself. Does she rub her clitoris in circles? Does she go up and down? Maybe she touches the outside of her clitoris. Maybe she uses her fingers or a vibrator. It's just a great way to learn how your partner touches themselves so you can mimic some of those moves and know what turns them on. I think it's like, and it's fun and it's hot to watch your partner masturbate. I think it's hot. A lot of women do, men do, watching each other. Why not?

What if it's a little awkward?

It can be awkward at first maybe, or maybe you could help each each other. Then she could watch you for a while, and then she could take over, and you could take over what she's doing, and you could both just have manually stimulated orgasms together.

Cool. Yeah, sounds like a plan.

I mean, it might seem awkward to people, but you got to get through. You could also keep your eyes closed. It can be more comfortable to slip into your comfort zone. I know part of it is watching them, but you don't have to leave your eyes open the whole time. So just kind of get into your rhythm and your groove. And, you know, sometimes the awkward things are the things that, you know, make us us the most, advance us sexually.

Sure, and it sure beats masturbating by yourself.

Exactly.

If you guys want to learn more from The Art of Charm about dating, relationships, and even networking for business, visit us at theartofcharm podcast.com, or check us out on iTunes and follow me on Twitter @TheArtOfCharm.

And check out the Sex with Emily podcast at sexwithemily.com and iTunes if you want to have the best sex of your life, that is. Also follow me on Twitter @sexwithemily. Sex with Emily. Buying a car can be such a stressful experience, but TrueCar is changing car buying forever. TrueCar actually helps car buyers get rid of the fear that they might overpay, and that fear is the worst. Last month, over 45,000 cars were sold by the TrueCar certified dealer network, and TrueCar.com users save an average of $3,046 off MSRP. So when you're ready to buy a car, you just gotta follow these 3 easy steps. Steps if you want to save money. First, go to TrueCar.com and find out what other people paid for the car you're looking for. Then register at TrueCar.com to see upfront pricing information, and then you lock in your savings. Third step, totally simple. All you do is you print out your TrueCar savings certificate, and then you take it to the TrueCar certified dealer for a better hassle-free car buying experience. Who doesn't want that? Some features not available in all states. And every day, TrueCar.com users receive negotiation-free guaranteed You need savings. Save time, save money, and never overpay. Why would you do that? Visit TrueCar.com today. That's TrueCar.com.