The Myth of Sex Addiction With Dr. David Ley

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Welcome to this episode of Sex with Emily. Tonight's show is all about the psychology of porn as well as sex and porn addiction. Are they real? These are just a few of the Topics My guest, Dr. David Ley and I will discuss on this episode of Sex with Emily. Thanks for listening. First, a word from our sponsor. You know, I'm obsessed with a lot of different kinds of gadgets and usually they're sex toys. But right now it is my no no Pro. Because I've spent so much time and money on razors and waxing and all that other stuff that we try to do to remove hair. But the no no Pro is the best way to remove unwanted hair with zero pain. No pain at all. And it's for men too. You know that hair on your neck and your back and you just want to get rid of it. Long neck hairs, you don't know what to do. So whether it's your legs, your arms, your face, you will love how easy the Nono is to use Nono Pro and the weeks of long lasting results. Plus it comes with 100% 60 day money back guarantee. And when you purchase it, you'll get a 50 gift card to an award winning skincare line. Go to nonoemily.com, that's nonoemily.com.

Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them.

In a bygone day.

Hey, Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Cause my man E here, he just got his heart broken.

He thinks you're kind of cute. A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my. Do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks. Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me?

Oh, my God.

I feel being bad feels pretty good. You know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, go to sex with emily.com, where you can check out all of our podcasts, our blogs, our videos, all of our sex tips that will help you have better sex and relationships. Which is why I know you're listening to the show. And who doesn't want that? You know, raise your hand if you want a worse relationship or you want no sex. I mean, some people are asexual and they don't want sex. But we're not going to cover that tonight. I'm here with Anderson. What up, Anderson? This is our wonderful Thursday night show where we are actually streaming live on ustream, which is a whole new thing. So Thursday nights. We started a little late tonight because we did have technical difficulties in the Loveline studio.

Well, look, the city is having technical difficulties.

Oh, it's the city, not just our studio.

Yeah, every, like, power outages.

Oh, okay. So don't be mad that we started late because there was a power outage. We can't. Can't help that. But yeah, you kind of blame Edison. I'm going to blame Edison, absolutely. 8, 39, 30 Pacific Standard Time. You can watch us live. And sometimes you can call in when we get the phones working and it's a good time. You can also. I do two podcasts a week. You should subscribe on itunes, which is really easy because you'll never miss another show again. And it's been funny recently because, Anderson, you're a podcaster as well.

Yeah, who's not?

Exactly. Everyone's a goddamn podcast these days. Okay, I started first, but whatevs.

He hosts the Film Vault and the After Disaster, which are two wonderful podcasts.

I started the film Vault 2007, actually, is when we first started doing it for an audience and that we were doing it just for fun back in 2003, so.

Okay, whatever. So you.

Do you still win?

I. I did Searching for Sex in San Francisco on cable in 2003.

That's TV. That doesn't. Oh, okay. So right around the same time, February for me. How about you?

Dude, I don't freaking remember February 8, 2003. But I was gonna say is that we are all. Yeah, why was it that we all are. Everyone has a goddamn podcast now. But what I was gonna say is it's really easy. It's funny because we do all podcasts, but there's so many people and all different ages, men, women, who just are like, I want to listen to your show. But I.

How do I get it? It's in the Internet.

Yeah, exactly. And so I'll just tell you, because my very best friend in San Francisco, Charlotte, she's like, always wants to listen. She's like, I'm so bummed. I don't know. I'm like, oh, my God. Download either podcast one app, Download Stitcher. That's a great one. Or there's an iTunes app. It's called Podcasts Free. These are all free apps. And you can easily. So easily, wherever you are, just stream and listen to a podcast, anything you want. So, you know, npr, I hope you listen to me. But whatever it is, people don't know this. So easy.

I know so many people are intimidated by technology, and I'm one of them. I'm not good at technology at all. But the podcast.

Shh.

What?

Don't let the bosses know that I'm not too good. But I'm the guy that walks into a room and nothing works. I mean, that's me nonstop. But, yeah, don't let my bosses know.

That it was Edison.

Well, it's tonight. It's Edison. I wish we had Tesla on our side. But it's easy for me. It's easy for. I taught my mom how to do it stupidly, because I don't want her listen to my shows. But I showed her, right?

No, I show my mom, too. And I just download. I download these apps for everyone, like, oh. And then people, like, love it because they can't believe it. So, anyway, that's an easy way to listen, folks, if you didn't know, but you're already listening, so you're already a step ahead. A few announcements I have is the sexual health Expo. I'm really Excited about this because it's January 17th and 18th in Los Angeles and it's sexualhealthexpo.com and it's going to be a two day conference, first of its kind, open to the public, where there's going to be top sex educators around the world speaking on all the topics you want to know about for better sex and relationships and the latest and greatest products that I always talk about, they'll be on display. I'm giving the keynote and I'm giving away free tickets. So if you want to go, email me. Feedbackaxwithelmi.com each ticket actually goes for two people. So you can bring your friend, your lover and tell me where you want to go and then I might give you a ticket. Also, we are looking for interns per usual. Not per usual, but every few months we get new interns and so now is the time. And you can go to internships.com and that's where it's posted and it's also on Intern Match, but we have to update it there as well if that's where you'd like to fancy. And you can also follow me on Twitter, which is ex with Emily. And I do a live chat every Wednesday from 12:30 to 1. And I answer Pacific Standard. I answer all your questions and yeah, that's what I got. And also your emails. I love, love, love hearing from you. I never get enough emails. Feedbackexwithamily.com because I answer your emails during the show and then we let you know, which is a really good time. And I think that's all. I went to a friend. So I went to a friend's book launch party last night. She launched a cookbook. My friend Gwen. And oh God, I don't want to say the name of, but we have no Internet. So the point is it's a quickbook. It's funny because it was a great party, amazing. But, you know, wherever I go, people are like, oh, sex show. And it was funny just that everyone has pulled me aside and ask questions. And so last night the question was about two people asking about penises dysfunctioning in their relationship. And one woman was with a delayed ejaculator and one woman was with a premature ejaculator. They were not friends.

Did they suggest they trade for a weekend?

Yeah, I'm like, hey, you guys might really want to do a swap here. But it's interesting because, you know, no one. People just don't know where to go for the answers. And it was just I'm always like sequestered the whole time talking about sex.

Do you get sick of it?

You know, it's funny. I really don't. Someone just asked me that. And I really. I love what I do. I actually love my job, and I love that it is actually a job.

Now, your friend with the cookbook, is it just a regular old cookbook?

No, it's really good. It's based on all of her, like, family recipes and stuff. And I'm gonna tell you all, if you go to my Instagram.

Sex family. It's not. Had nothing to do with sex. You actually have friends that just do regular things. It's not like cooking with Kohn.

That's why they all pull me aside. That's why they all pull me aside. Because they don't know what the hell to do their sex lives. But, you know, she can write a cookbook, but. Oh, and then it's called. Because now I gotta give her. Okay, it is called, God damn, we have no Internet.

What are you doing?

Honeysuckle Hill book.

See, I knew it was gonna be somewhat sexual. Honeysuckle.

Oh, you're right, it does sound sexual, but it's not at all. It's her family recipes. It's amazing. It's a really beautiful book. But it was just funny because people just. That's what I'm saying, is people gravitate. They're like, hey, you know, what are these problems that everyone's having? And tonight we will be talking about some of those because I'm so excited for our guest, Dr. David Ley. He'll be coming in a little bit, but he wrote a book and he talks a lot. Porn. He's a clinical psychologist. He wrote two books about sexuality addressing both male and female sexuality. And the book that we're gonna be. We're talking about both of them tonight. And is one on, like, the myth of porn. Do I have that right? Yes. You guys, the Internet is.

Just trust yourself.

The sex addiction. I'm so sorry, David. It's called the myth of sex addiction, which, you know. You know, even at Anderson on Love Light, every night we're getting calls. People are, like, addicted to porn. I'm addicted to this. And we don't want to be sexual.

I cheated on her. It's not my fault, man. I'm addicted.

Exactly.

I'm addicted to have a gene.

So we're gonna be talking about the myth of. Is it. Does it really exist? The myth of sex addiction. And he also wrote a book called Insatiable Wives. We're into that. There's so many Fun topics to talk about tonight.

I sent you a text earlier tonight when I was at dinner asking who the guest was. And when you told me I was quite excited, you said fun. I'm like, this is gonna be fun.

Really?

I'm like, really? Some girl that put like nine things in her ass at once. Fantastic.

We're on a porn star hiatus right now because we're really smart, interesting people like David lay on the show. But first, I also. We have a little bit sex the news.

Love the sex in the news.

I know, it's so good. A man gets robbed by online date after romantic dinner at Arby's.

That's not a thing.

No, it is a thing. Exactly. Right. You can't have an accident. Right, Exactly. You can't have a romantic dinner at Arby's. So ever since Catfish came out, a lot of people are suspicious. The online dating bait and switch. What they don't think about is meeting someone who steals your wallet. That's exactly what happened to 23 year old Jeffrey Mac, who took his online match, 20 year old Heather Durian. Whatever. To an Arby's in North Plains, Oregon for their first date. Having already stolen his heart, Mac shelled out $3.

I think that's three sandwiches.

Three whole dollars to buy her a milkshake. Unfortunately, as the couple drove up to the window get changed from the clerk, that's when she grabbed the money and ran. It might seem upon first read that the woman was insulted by Mac's choice of venue. We think most ladies would agree that Arby's Drive Thru might not be the most romantic venue for a first date. I actually do you know what's so funny? And this is so random. My first date was actually at Arby's when I was like, I remember our parents drove us and I was like, you know, maybe like 10 or 11 and we went to Arby's.

That's very cute. That's precious.

I just had a flash. Okay, so you think it would be she robbed him because she's like f you. I don't want roast beef milkshake. But that's not true. The he called the police and they tracked her back to her minivan. And you know what you find in a minivan?

Meth.

Well, they found his wallet along with hypodermic needles, two jars of hash oil, marijuana pipes, a scale and a pill bottle of material suspected to be methamphetamines.

Hey, I was right.

She was arrested.

How much does she get? Did you say how much she robbed? This Guy for.

No, it doesn't.

If he's an Arby's guy, I would think he probably had maybe tops 15 bucks.

15, 20 bucks maybe.

Yeah.

That's not the guy you're gonna rob. I'd go for yeah.

You don't hit the Arby's guy. No, you don't hit the Ruth Chris guy.

Exactly. Right. The guy Ruth. Even that would be about my like don't take. This is so bad.

Don't hit anybody.

I'm not gonna. Don't hit anybody. But I was just gonna say something really bad about chains and I'm not going to. Uh huh.

Go ahead, cuz.

No, I first know it's like Ruth's. No, Ruth's Chris.

Are they a sponsor? Fuck them.

Let's go.

I'm just not into chains. Like Olive Garden. Like it's.

I know. I hate when you go out of like some cities.

It's. That's your only. You know.

If you're out of town though, and you're like in a new place, don't go to a chain. Then you feel like you're in your backyard. Yeah.

But sometimes the option is.

I know. More and more so. Because all these guys own everything.

Exactly. So I'm not gonna say anything bad at all. But I'm gonna. Welcome David Ley. Hello, David.

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Good to have you. Liking your face. I'm so glad you're here because my next. We're gonna get into all your stuff in a minute. But my next Sex and the news story. I thought that you would have some comments on.

Exciting.

Yeah, very exciting. Just gonna bring you right in here. Throw you in. Okay. So I was gonna read the Arby story again. We already read. That is you guys.

Okay. Women with male friends have more sex. There's a study that came out. Well, ladies, it turns out having a lot of guy friends isn't just good for drinking beer on Thursday nights and playing video games. A new study from Oakland University found that women with a lot of men in their life, like friends or co workers, have more sex with their boyfriends compared with couples in which the female partner has fewer male influences. Researchers came to the Conclusion they studied 400 men in committed relationships and the men who reported their girlfriends as having lots of male attention from social and professional circles and felt that other men found their partners attractive were associated with having more sex with their girlfriends.

So it's interesting research, but one of the things I'll say is that the causality probably goes the other way. Women that have Higher libido already tend to have more male friends. They tend to get along better with men as opposed to women, because women oftentimes try to suppress the sexuality of other women. Women with high libido are kind of a threat to that. So women that like sex about as much as guys who used to get called nymphomaniacs tend to get along better with guys.

Right now we're just called a good time or win girl.

That's right.

But it's funny. Yeah, that's a really good point. And the thing is, I do have a lot of guy friends, but I also have a lot of female friends. I'm a girl's girl and a guy's girl. But you're right, that would make more sense. But also, this is what related to you, the researchers, they all think that this is because of sperm competition, which is what you talk a lot about. Also, if you don't already know, or I was reading some of your stuff about sperm competition. If you don't already know, the male sperm is very competitive. In fact, if sperm from two different males end up inside the same female, the little guys will actually fight each other to the death in order to fertilize first.

So this is a biological desire to fight off other sperm. Translates to dating world as a psychological desire to fight off other men, known as sperm competition in psychology, which goes back to biology and beginning of time. Right. When they talk about.

Yeah, Part of the idea is that women and men have been kind of fighting a cold war over sex and conception for thousands or millions of years. Both genders trying to control which one controls conception, which one controls who makes the baby. So that the shape of the penis actually works as a suction pump to suck out the semen of another man if it's present. Whereas female orgasm. One of the functions of female orgasm may be as a way to exert control over which man's sperm is more likely to cause conception.

Right, Exactly. And I always tell guys, I'm like, that is why your penis is shaped the way it is, to pull. Did you know this, Anderson?

Yeah, I heard this once before and I was as startled then as I am now.

I think I mentioned it on people. No one believes it.

And when women are ovulating, they're more likely to cheat and they're more likely to have orgasms with the men they cheat with as opposed to the men they're married to. Sorry, guys.

No, it's kind of true. Right. And we just can't help it. It's our Biology. So. But the thing that reminded me of you is that if a man is watching porn, he'll become more aroused and will release more sperm when he watch into a tissue. Of course, when he watches two men having sex with.

Exactly.

Or into his fleshlight, when he watches two men having sex with one woman rather than two women having sex with one man, it's the same thing.

You know, this is one of these things that we've learned about sexuality from porn, and people have a hard time with that. But we are learning about the way sex actually works, as opposed to the way we want it to work through pornography, through the free market economy of pornography, where people buy what they actually want and what turns them on. Makers of pornography found out that guys wanted to watch more porn that had multiple guys and a single woman. Now the universal male fantasy is two women and a man. Overwhelmingly, when you ask men what's your primary fantasy, they say, I want to have a threesome with two women.

Right.

So you would think that the Internet would be filled with that kind of pornography, because most pornography on the Internet is made for men, but in fact is the reverse. And what we have found is exactly that. That not only do men ejaculate harder and that their ejaculate contains more sperm when they watch pornography that has multiple men and a single woman. But they get aroused again sooner with the idea that they can, you know, they can keep going. So think about it. If you're making pornography, you make more money off that pornography because the guys stay longer and come back again and again.

But guys don't know this. They're not thinking that that's what they're. Why they're attracted to. I mean, they're not thinking that that's why. And I always thought that men didn't want to look at other penises. Oftentimes when they're watching porn, they're like, I don't want to see another penis because I'll. I know they do because I talk about it all the time. But my first initial thing was they don't want to see other penises around.

And guys look at women's faces in porn, frankly, more than women do.

Wait, guys look at women's face? Wait, what do you mean? When women are watching porn, they don't look at the women's faces.

When guys are watching pornography, they more frequently look at the woman's face. As opposed to what women look at when they watch pornography, which is more frequently the genitalia.

Right. Now, why do they look at the.

Face because women are. Men are looking for those attractive females. Men are looking for those qualities in a woman that they find sexy and appealing. And guys start the orgasm face.

And the moni.

Face. Guys start with the face.

They do, but then do they work their way? Okay, so initially or the entire time, their eyes are more drawn towards their face because I think they'd be looking at the penis going in and out.

More consistently over time. As a guy watches a porn, they're looking back at the woman's face.

That's nice. Now, what about during sex? They're not looking at her face. How come? During intercourse, guys are looking at her face, they want the lights off, and they're thinking about their, you know.

No, we want the lights on, right, David?

I know. Guys want the lights on, girls want the lights off.

Having the lights on makes it a little hard to watch tv. You can see the TV and the screen better.

So why don't guys look at your face? Because they're embarrassed during. I feel like most men are. Do not, do not want to, like, look at your face the whole time you're having sex.

Well, it's really intense. And then you start to worry, are you making a strange face? Are you making the goofy face? Is she gonna start laughing at you? It's easier to stare off in the distance.

That's true. It is true. But I like that. I mean, I'm not the chick who's like, look at me, you know, maybe everyone look at me.

I got a quick question for David.

Yes?

So I got, I got. This is a real story, and I'm not making jokes here. I got some friends who are trying to get pregnant. It's not me, I swear to God. And he's got like a low sperm count a little bit. So could the doctor, with your findings, could the doctor theoretically prescribe him to watch gang bang porn while banging his wife? Would that possibly get the number up?

You know, even more so you get with the guy's wife and you convince the wife to pretend that she's cheating. And then the guy, so long as they don't get in a fight and get divorced, then the guy's sperm count is more likely to go up. Because when a guy believes that his wife or female mate has been unfaithful, he is more likely to all of these things. His sperm is more likely to jump up, jump up and go, hey, we got to get in there.

What about me?

That's right, man. This is our field. We've got to get in. We've got to take over. And so it is that sperm competition that actually can increase conception. The wife shouldn't cheat, but if he thinks that she could have, he's more likely to get more role playing, more.

Boys into the role playing. It just like, you know, when I.

Wrote my first book about couples that basically do this, couples that play with these issues of insatiable wife. Yeah. And some of the couples I interviewed, they would go to a bar and the wife and husband would pretend they didn't know each other. The wife would sit at the bar and guys would hit on her. And then at the end of the night, the husband would walk up, hit on her, and swoop her away like he was. Like he was the king, you know, he was the guy who won. And he'd take his wife home and they'd fuck like strangers.

Right? And it's hot. This is what I try to explain to couples, even couples who aren't trying to have a baby in general, role playing can be hot. They think, I can never do that. I've been with my wife for 10 years. But just get into the moment, and even if you laugh a little, you know, whatever, you'll get through it. And you might go home and have rocking sex and get pregnant. That's really interesting, Anderson. You got to tell your friend that this. Why aren't you just, like, helping women get pregnant? I would think not personally, because you're married, but I would think that that would be an amazing. But what about, though, with just watching the porn, though, with men, too, if they're into it. And why can't. Why don't more guys want to have the actual. I get it. Why they don't. I'm like, why can't I have more threesomes with two guys then? I get it. They're not conscious of it psychologically.

But there's an interesting piece there, because while 70 to 90% of guys will endorse a fantasy of having a threesome with two women, fewer than 6 to 5% of men actually have a threesome with two women. So it is a message that people can have a very powerful sexual fantasy and yet never act on it.

Right. Most people, a lot of people have fantasies, and people are so ashamed of their fantasies. And it doesn't mean that you have to want to act on it. Our minds are very active.

90% of people never share their sexual fantasies, even with their husband or wife, which is really sad.

I think so, too. I think so too. Because I always say that's really key, is communication to Everything to better sex, to better relationship. And it just amazes me how many couples just they. And they might even want to. They don't even know how to start. And so I try to just teach that language of how you even just start. How do you, you know, if you've never. You've been with someone for a while. And obviously, as we know, sex sometimes isn't a problem at the beginning, isn't usually a problem at the beginning. It's amazing at the beginning. But then when it becomes a problem, well, we never had to talk about it before and people are just so afraid of it. So I would say communication is a lubrication.

I think even at the beginning of a relationship, though, sex can be intimidating. You know, the first time a man and a woman have sex, a woman is typically worried about what her body looks. Looks like. And a man is worried about whether or not he will be able to satisfy her, whether or not he will be skilled. And so, you know, one reason, Emily, I think that guys might have trouble looking at a woman, as you say, is because we've got things going on in our head and we're worried about, you know, we're worried about staying erect. We're worried about staying erect for long enough. We're worried about, you know, are we going to be able to have an orgasm? We're worried about all these things. And that worry can sometimes paralyze us and sabotage the whole process.

True. It's so absolutely true. Especially the first few times you're with someone and sometimes, you know, ongoing. So these are great. David, you're great. I'm so glad you're here. So, Dr. David Lay, it's a little intro here. Clinical psychologist and he's the author of two books about sexuality, addressing male and female sexuality and our society's tendency to treat sexual issues with fear and panic, which we do. He's an advocate for a non pathologizing approach to the sexual addiction, sexual education and treatment. And so we first met. It's funny because I was thinking, like I said, actually today in my office, I said, I think he was speaking at my school when we first met. And you were? When I was in my sex school, the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. Did you go to school there as well?

No. You know, it's funny. I am a very traditionally trained clinical psychologist. I am a narc. Well, I'm in practice. I run a large agency. We do lots of substance abuse treatment and mental illness treatment. But I've always had an interest in working with sexuality. I used to work with sex offenders, but over time, people would refer more and more patients to me just because of alternative sexuality. You know, I got. I had the choice with the last name Le. I could either become a sex doctor or a politician who was involved in a sex scandal. Anthony Weiner had already done so well at that that I decided sex doctor was better. But over the years, I've gotten that name of the sex doctor, you know, I was working with a probation system in Texas one time, and probation officers brought me this envelope, and it was all wrapped up in evidence tape. And they said, Dr. Lay, we need you to go through this. So what had happened was that a kid was breaking into a next door neighbor's house during the day, and he was downloading porn and printing it all out on their color printer. Now, if it had been my computer, what I would have been upset about was the ink.

Oh, my God. That's the first thing I thought of.

Holy shit, that stuff's expensive. So I had to sit down and go through this porn with the lights off and the door locked very carefully for hours to make sure there was nothing deviant in there.

Right.

Fun job. But that kind of started me on this career.

I was gonna ask you how you got started on this. Okay.

That sort of started me along this way of being the guy who would be brought in to say, well, you know, this might be uncommon kind of sexual behavior, but it's not unhealthy.

Right, Exactly. Everyone wants to know. That's what we're gonna get into tonight. Because everyone wants to know, am I normal? Am I unhealthy? Do I have an addiction? But there's the funny story I was gonna say, which, Anderson, I think we appreciate, except for I think you watched ways that you said to me. We met at class, right? You said. Yeah, you had add. You were the one with ADD in the background. Scrambling in the background, which is, I can be kind of a dick. I'm sorry. No, you're not a. No, I love it. I totally have add. It's very obvious to everyone who knows me, but it was funny that you were just speaking in front of class with, like, 30 people in the room, and I'm in the back, and you're like, she has add, Which I thought was funny. And so I'm glad that we finally made this happen. So, okay, your book, the Myth of Sex Addiction, it's controversial. And you say that sex addiction isn't real.

I think that it is a lot of things. It is an expression of our society's fear of sex. It is a tendency that we've had for hundreds of years to diagnose and pathologize people who like sex more than we think they should. Here's another interesting thing, though, is that the idea of sex addiction came into our society and into our kind of medical lingo in the early 80s when two things happened. One, when we switched as a society and we no longer viewed masculinity and men as the norm, the feminist revolution started to change things, and no longer could we allow men to be living under separate sexual rules. Now, the second thing that happened at the same time was that aids came in and all of a sudden, unrestrained male sexuality and especially unrestrained male homosexual behavior could result in death. And so we had Oprah talking about the down low phenomenon and husbands that were having secret gay sex and bringing aids home to their unsuspecting, poor, naive, trusting wives. And people got afraid of sex. And people. People started saying that guys who had too much sex were addicted to sex, that sex was like a disease. Sex was like a drug and like alcohol. You know, Bill Clinton had one blowjob in the white House, maybe, maybe more than that. Maybe more, maybe a few more than that. One documented, but got called a sex addict. Now, John Kennedy had sex all through the White House, around the world. John f. Kennedy once said to another foreign country's president, if he didn't have sex with a different woman every day, he got headaches. But nobody called John f. Kennedy a sex addict.

There was no TMZ then. We couldn't document that.

Yeah, well, but also, the media was more interested in, like, real stories. Kind of like the Cuban missile crisis, Right, exactly.

There was other things going on as.

Opposed to who was having blowjobs.

Right. And now we're obsessed with sex everywhere because it is everywhere. Now we're scared for our children who are learning about sex through porn, because kids already haven't been learning about it for decades. There's not great sex education in schools, but now there's porn.

And we all know intuitively that when we're turned on, we're tempted to do stupid stuff. They did this amazing study a few years back. A guy named Dan Ariely, who's a neuroeconomist at Harvard, did this study where they sent laptops wrapped in plastic home with college students and had the college students jerk off while they were looking at porn. And then while they're watching the porn, they would ask them questions like, would you do this? Would you do that? Well, guess what? It turns out when people are turned on, they're more likely to do stupid stuff like have sex with people they don't know or use have sex without using a condom. They might engage in risky kinds of behavior like spanking and things like that, all when they're turned on, because that is the way that sex works. It really does affect our judgment and it affects the decisions we make because mother Nature and evolution wants us to have sex whenever we can. Now, that doesn't make sex a bad thing. That doesn't make sex a drug or an alcohol that's affecting our brain. It simply means that making bad decisions sometimes when we're turned on is human. We can be responsible about that, and we can learn about it without calling sex a disease.

Okay, that's interesting. We're gonna come right back to that. And my guest is David Ley. You can find him on Twitter avidleigh L E Y or@Facebook.com David Lay, Ph.D.

But actually, Dr. David Lay.

That would I say. Oh, at Twitter. Oh, I just said David Lay. Sorry. Okay. It's rdavidleigh l e y on Twitter and then facebook.com David Lay, Ph.D. sure. Okay, so first I have to give a shout out to the lovely people at Good Vibrations. One of the reasons you're able to listen to us for free twice a week is because of the incredible people@goodvibes.com because they carry all the very best sex toy brands that I talk to you about all the time. All the toys that I just love, love, love. Like, right now, I'm sort of obsessed with the Vibratex girls. They're these cute little clitoral vibrators that come in little leather pouches, and they make a great gift for your partner or just for yourself. And they're great to use during sex, intercourse, whatever you want. And the Dahlia is great for G spot stimulation. Also, they sell the most orgasmic vibrator of all times, the Magic Wand. So just go to my site, sexwithemily.com and you click on the Good Vibes banner, and when you click on that, you'll see a store there. It's like my store of all the toys that, you know, I've tried them all. So you can use coupon code GVMLY20 for 20% off. So go to SexEmily.com, click on Good Vibes Q Bundco GVMLY20, and you will be well on your way to good times. Also, the flashlight. You know about the flashlight, David? Tell me about the flashlight, the flashlight, the flashlight. You know the flashlight.

I know the flashlight that you use in the dark when you're alone and lonely.

No, not only when you're alone and lonely or just when you know, because we. Speaking of Good Vibes, women have so many toys to choose from. Men.

It is sad, isn't it? You know, I love places like Good Vibes and all of these other feminist queer owned stores that are really reclaiming sexuality. And there are so many exciting, wonderful toys for women. And the toys for guys kind of suck.

That's why the Fleshlight's amazing. It's the number one sex toy for men and probably the only one you want. It's a male masturbation sleeve that the simulates the sensations of real sex. And so you have other options just using your hand. And from every guy I know who've used one who told me about it, they said it feels amazing. And the Fleshlight was engineered to look and feel like the real deal. Many people think it even feels better than sex.

And it's made from silicone because we invented by NASA. You know, humans do this amazing wonderful thing where any new technology we find a way to make it sexy.

Right.

Which is so awesome. I love that we are so creative. Yes.

Yeah. So the Fleshlight stamina training unit also helps you practice lasting longer, becoming a better lover. And you will lover and you'll experience some of the best, most mind blowing orgasms of your life. It's body safe, you can use it over and over again and it provides a variety. You know, men, they want to experiment. Women, we experiment. We should all be expanding our sexuality, right? So check it out. Here's the deal though, for my wonderful listeners. If you go to my website, you click on the Fleshlight banner. So go to sacaslme.com they are giving everybody a bottle of the the flush lube which is award winning when you buy a flashlight. So do that now go to my website, click on the flashlight banner and use coupon code Emily when you check out and you'll get their amazing award winning lube. I love lube. Hi. Okay, David, so I took a tour.

Of kink.com up in San Francisco one time and my wife and I were together taking a tour of the place. And the thing that was most amazing, the thing that I will never Forget were the 50 gallon drums of lube.

And I'm not even kidding with these pump. And that was their answer. They said, you know, you can never have enough lube.

I always say you can never be Too rich, too thin or have enough lube?

Absolutely.

You know that saying that rich and thin, I'm like, oh, lube too. I love lube. I just feel like people don't realize that how much it enhances. Okay, so back to addiction. Sex addiction. Because I could go off with my.

Get addicted to lube.

Can you? No. So you're saying it's very difficult. It's very difficult. People say, what do you mean? Like, it's real. They have sex and love Addicts Anonymous. They have alcohol, they have, you know, narcotics. So, you know, you're saying that it's really. You talk about the addiction myth, actually.

So if we're addicted to anything, it's using the word addiction. Because we can say we're addicted to chapstick. We're addicted, you know, Harry Potter. When the last Harry Potter book came out, people said, oh, I was addicted to Harry Potter. And I went through withdrawal because there was no more Harry Potter to read. The thing is, we're using the word addiction in a way that has kind of become meaningless. I think it's important that we pay attention to that. The modern psychiatry and substance abuse treatment is using the word addiction very little anymore because it has become too vague and nebulous. You know, there's even a question as to whether or not marijuana, for instance, is actually addictive. Can it, can it generate long term dependence kind of problems? Maybe. But if it is, the addiction there is working very different from like, for instance, addiction to cocaine or heroin. So as we learn more, we are becoming more subtle and more nuanced in the way we think about this. The problem with sex, and when we apply that to when we apply addiction to sex, is that sex is normal, sex is healthy. And there is absolutely no distinction between people that have lots of sex and when somebody is having too much sex. You know, Kinsey, the famous sex researcher, said it best, I think, and he said a nymphomaniac or a sex addict in today's world is somebody who has more sex than the therapist. So if you have more sex than me, then you are automatically addicted to sex. But if you have the same amount of sex as I do, then you're perfectly normal. He said the same kind of thing about the penis size. He said that the average penis size is always half an inch shorter than the main researcher. Right. We are. Our science is affected by humanity, but psychology is as well. And we are applying cultural, social norms to sex. And unfortunately, most of the problems that people have related to sex. And I am not, I'M not stupid. I know that people get in trouble for having sex. Absolutely. And I know people make bad decisions about sex, and I know people can get seduced into, you know, getting kind of carried away. But all of those things can be explained by a lot of other issues, including, one, the effect of sex, but two, the effect of other major mental health conditions that are oftentimes going untreated because people look and say, oh, it's sex, that, that is the problem. But unfortunately, by doing so, we end up ignoring other real issues like mismatched libido. And lots of couples across the course of a relationship will have times when one wants more sex than the other one. And in today's world, the person who wants more sex, it doesn't matter how little sex they actually want, if they want more sex than their partner, is automatically called a sex addict, right?

Well, yeah, but what if they want more sex and they happen to cheat on their partner and do other. They're surfing porn so much that they can't stop and they have pain and.

Then they say, oh, my God, it's not my fault. I made stupid, selfish decisions, but it's because I'm addicted and it's become this way to avoid responsibility.

Well, Kay, so what would you say the difference between a healthy sexual appetite and when does it cross the line?

Ultimately, it all depends on context. It depends upon, for instance, the relationship and how somebody has been able to negotiate their healthy sexual appetite within their relationship, within their life. You know, there are swingers out there who have more sex than any of us all put together. And they have made it work within their life because they've looked at it, they've looked at themselves, and they've made responsible, ethical, kinds of thoughtful decisions. Unfortunately, I think that lots of times we end up, people get in trouble, we blame the sex, but really it comes down to poor communication, selfishness, egocentrism, and lack of respect for other people.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think it's so interesting that you bring up swingers and people in alternative relationships, because I say this all the time and people don't get it. How could those people be unhealthy related? Do you really know any happy swingers? Do you know any happy polyamorous couples? And I say, you know, I actually do because they have fierce communication. They talk about everything. They have boundaries and, you know, they. Yes, they have people like, how can they get over jealousy? It's like, you know, you learn to transcend it. You learn to talk about you Might still feel jealousy, but then you learn how to deal with it and communicate it. So communicate with it. I mean, sure, there's unhappy swingers and there's unhappy monogamous couples, but there are some really good models of them being just fiercely open, and they talk about all their sexual needs and desires.

And after I wrote my first book and my first book, Insatiable, I want.

To get into that, too.

Yeah, it's about. Well, it's about cuckolds and hot wife couples, which are couples where the wife is going off and having lots of sex with men other than the husband. Oftentimes the husband is monogamous, but he's living vicariously through his wife's sexuality and really encouraging her to expand her sexuality to include other men. Those couples have the most amazing communication skills, the ones who are able to make this work. It is a tough life to negotiate, but their ability to talk about this stuff gives them the ability to talk about anything. And I talk. I joked about taking some of these folks around, like a traveling road show, really, to do a talk for vanilla and monogamous couples. Not about how to have kinky sex, but just about how to talk to each other.

Exactly. So what do you think? Well, okay, so what do you. I want to go back to the cuckolding in a minute because it's fascinating. But, I mean, I'm always telling you just gotta, you know, talk about your fantasies. But do you have any other skills when you work with couples and individuals? Like, how do you tell them? What would you think they would learn? Let's say we had a cuckolding couple right here, and what is it? They just, you know, obviously it's not always smooth sailing at the beginning, but it's that they talk about everything. Their desires, what they want, how they're feeling. That made me feel uncomfortable when you were banging the neighbor, even though I thought it would make me feel better. Is that. I mean, how would you even get. What's your tips for giving couples just to really start if they've never talked about sex?

You've got to first do a personal inventory, and you've got to identify what your needs and desires are. What are the things that turn you on? What are the things you're looking for? And then you've got to be able to. You've got to be able to communicate those to your partner, but you've at the same time got to have respect for your partner's needs as well. And I think that, unfortunately, is one of the things that can Be tough because you have to be self aware and at the same time willing to give some of that stuff up and compromise and negotiate within the boundaries that you and your partner have put together.

Right. And it's the kind of conversation you should start having, you know, early on. People wait. Often they're married and then they realize, oh, he wants this and she wants that. Doesn't work.

Yeah.

You know, or it could change over time.

I think we set people up, you know, I think when we fall in love, you know, we think, as you said, that honeymoon effect, that first six months to two years, all we want to do is fuck like rabbits and we can't get enough of each other. We think it's going to be like that forever. But unfortunately, you know, our bodies change, our minds change. The way that love works in our body changes, and we start having to move into a little more mature, sophisticated kind of sexuality with our partner. We need to prepare for that. But we don't set people up for that. We don't tell people to have these conversations, unfortunately. And I think that if we did, people would be better prepared. But you can always catch up. I have a friend who. Her entire career is treating Mormon couples and helping them learn about sexuality, to negotiate sexuality and sexual desires within their relationships. Because they didn't grow up learning that.

Right? We didn't, but people here didn't either.

Absolutely. You know, my. My daughter went to an abstinence only sex education class, and the students were coming up to her after class and asking her questions because they knew she was my daughter.

Right, Exactly. Oh, my God. So what age did you start talking your daughter about sex? How old is she now?

I'm gonna get in deep, deep, deep shit for talking about.

No, but I think she.

Well, I picked her up one day at daycare, and the teachers came up to me and they said, you know, we need to talk to you, Dr. Ley. And I said, okay. And they said, your daughter's running around saying that to everybody. Everybody that walked in the door. Girls have vaginas and boys have penises. And I was like, well, what's the problem? Her pronunciation? You know, it should be vagina. Actually, it should be Volvo before really getting into it.

Right.

But people react with that kind of fear, you know, I think healthy conversations with children should be developmentally appropriate throughout their lives.

And if they start asking questions early, you got. You can't just say, wait till you're old. It's an adult conversation. Do you think that they should. What if they start asking at 5 or 6.

Right. A famous surgeon general in the United States actually said, what if we taught kids about sex?

What if we taught kids about swimming the same way we teach them about sex? And would we be surprised that when they were old enough to go swimming, they all drowned?

Right, Exactly. No, it's a great.

We keep things secret, and then we throw them out to the wolves. And then we're surprised when there's pregnancy.

And STDs and bad stuff. They just don't know. I just feel like there needs to be. I've just been thinking, this is me having, like, three nieces, and my family still, like, oh, we can't talk about what Aunt Emily does. It's annoying. But, okay, so. God, I want to go back. But first of all, the cuckold. So that's your book, Insatiable Wives, Women who Stray, and the Men who Love Them. You can buy it on Amazon. So first, explain cuckolding for people who don't know what that is. You just kind of covered it. Men. You want?

Yeah.

There's so many different layers to it, but it's.

There are. You know, sometimes it is an aspect of BDSM and has humiliation kind of components. Sometimes it is more simply an offshoot of kind of swinging where the husband is monogamous and the wife is not. It comes in lots and lots of different flavors, but it is a very old kind of behavior that we have suppressed. You know, if you remember the movie Indecent Proposal, where Robert Redford and Demi Moore and Woody Harrelson. Robert Redford offers a million bucks to sleep with Demi Moore and Woody Harrelson's the husband and lets it happen. But then the morality play of the movie is depicting, look, this ends your marriage. This ends your communication that jealousy takes over you after you do this. It can't work. But people have been doing this for thousands of years. And my book Insatiable Wives talks about some of that history of it, showing that this thing that we treat as so taboo and so unhealthy may, in fact actually be very normal. You know, cuckolding porn and MILF porn is actually some of the most popular pornography on the Internet now because people are really. Men especially, are really intrigued by the idea of powerful, sexual women who are confident in their bodies and their sensuality. Men find that really sexy.

They do. Yeah. Yeah. Hello. Women take charge in the bedroom.

You know, women can have. On record there have been women who had, you know, 60 orgasms in an hour. But on record, the.

I'm gonna beat that, yeah. Tonight.

During the show, you know, maybe it's not a bad idea. I had some of my toys here now.

Yeah. Get one of those good vibes.

Yeah.

But men simply can't compete. And there is something that some men find incredibly appealing about the idea of helping their wives or their woman explore kind of the infinite aspects of a female. Female sexuality. Men get a lot out of this.

And it's. Some of the stuff that I talk about in that book is why these couples do it and why this thing that we think is so crazy maybe isn't right.

Because. And they say there's lots of different levels to it. Like some men just. Yeah, they. Those benevolent men who just want to see their women have the most pleasure they can, which is amazing. I haven't yet to find that man. But also that, you know, it feels good that your wife, you know, is desired by someone else, but it also can use shaming. Some men think, you know, his penis is bigger than mine, it feels so good, feels so bad kind of thing.

Absolutely. There's sometimes there's that humiliation kind of component. Leopold van Sacker mesach that masochism was named after, he actually explored this. He posted ads in the German newspapers of the day, kind of the Craigslist of the day, looking for a virile young man to befriend. To befriend his wife because he thought that watching another man have sex with his wife would be the ultimate in humiliation. That massacre wanted to learn about and wanted to experience it goes back that far and even further. Now, there are also some unhealthy aspects to this where, you know, some men kind of treat their wives as property. And it's this. It's this misogynistic kind of aspect to it. Now does that condemn the whole lifestyle or is it, again, simply an aspect of the fact that humans one talent is to fuck anything up. We can take anything. Sabotage, yes, we can take anything, no matter how beautiful and wonderful it is, and make bad decisions with it. But that doesn't condemn that behavior, that lifestyle, that desire, that need. It simply says that if we're going to do this, we need to do it with respect, negotiation and compassion.

Which is what people don't often do with sex, which is why it gets so complicated in relationships. And I think. So going back to porn and all that, I feel like there's a lot of women who just don't understand their partners to say their husband's need, or boy, whatever it is, boyfriend, need to watch porn. They're like I don't get it. We're having amazing sex. And why does he need to sneak off and do this thing? And I would say, you know, it's normal, it's healthy, it's normal. And it's better sex to have. You know, of course, it can be a problem too, but women just. They're so confused by it because we don't often have the same desires and need to watch as much.

And remember what I said about what a man is worried about when he has sex? He's worried about his ability to please the woman, to give her orgasms, to stay hard, to stay hard for long enough, and on and on and on. A lot of guys tell me that when they watch porn, it's about kind of a selfish release. It is about not having to worry about those things. It is an escape where they can be turned on and watch these women on in porn who are easily satisfied. You know, the guy just shows up in a porn and the woman is coming.

I know, but this is the problem. This is my problem with porn, though, is that that when people are learning through porn, they're like, well. And then guys I've talked to, and they're like, oh, that was.

She was the best.

It was the best sex. I'm like, well, why? He's like, well, she came really easily. You know, that's always what guys want. But then they're. When they're watching porn, technically, I'm thinking, you know, he's nowhere near her clitoris. That can't be pleasurable. But that's what guys think. Women are all gonna have orgasms. And so that doesn't mean. And that's fake it.

And that's why porn shouldn't be education. It's entertainment.

So we have no problem. Right? Exactly. I totally agree. But that's the only place people can find information. It is unfortunate. So you need to be out there more doing that. So we talked a little bit about the media and the.

Catastrophic.

Catastrophic nature of how they treat sexuality. I can say catastrophic. So, yeah, and that's really part of the problem, I think, that we all have is that there is so much shaming around it and that the media won't even talk about it, but yet everyone's online doing it. You know, it's just.

So the media makes money off of making people afraid by creating anxiety in viewers. They. They get viewers to tune in and then they sell them shit. Anxiety is used to manipulate people and to sell commercials. Sex, everybody is kind of nervous about. Sex is a universal kind of experience, because, again, we all know that there are times that we did things or thought about doing things when we were turned on. So it's really easy for the media to get people nervous about sex, worried that there's something wrong with them, there's something wrong with their partner, their partner might be cheating on them. These are really easy things to stir people up about and to manipulate them. You know, I talk a lot about Chicken Little. Chicken Little is an amazing story. The story of Chicken Little is over 2000 years old because it is a fact that people use fear to manipulate other people. And in the story of Chicken Little, you know, Chicken Little thinks the sky is falling and runs around and grabs people up and leads them off to protect them from the sky falling. Gets everybody all worked up about this panic. They go into the cave where the fox says, oh, don't worry. I'll take care of you, keep you safe. And then the fox eats them. It is a valuable moral story that we need to look at because the media and frankly, our government and oftentimes our leaders are using our fear and anxiety to manipulate us, control us, and to sell us shit, right?

And to repress and suppress our sexual desires and make us feel like we're not normal and something's wrong. But how do you explain, like, people's. If you. If porn is actually not an addiction, what about people's compulsive sexual behaviors? If it's not addiction, you know, then what is it like if they're compulsively met? You know, we get all the time people. I masturbate ten times a day. I can't. You know, I was just saying this last week. I. You know, again, I was talking earlier about every party. Everywhere I go, people, like, pull me aside. Probably happens to you, too.

Oh, yeah.

And he said, oh, you know, I think I have a problem. I masturbate twice a day. I'm like, that's not. I said this last week. So twice a day, you know, finally, you know, after a few minutes, he's like, well, it's actually like six or seven times a day. And that porn is really hardcore. And he's single, but he's like, now I'm trying to date women, and I can't even get an erection.

People are reporting this more and more and more, and there is even the belief that porn is causing erectile dysfunction first. There's no research to support that. There's no research really, for us to figure out what's actually going on. But what we need to know is that we're talking about erectile dysfunction more now than we've ever talked about, which is good. Which is good. But as a result, we're finding out that it happens a lot more than we ever thought. And there was a writer in the 70s called Herb Goldberg, and he said the wisdom of the penis. He says, sometimes your dick is smarter than you are, and it's not getting hard, and it shouldn't get hard. You need to pay attention to that. Now, the other thing I say to guys when they're reporting this, when shouldn't.

The dick get hard? If it wants to get hard? The penis.

If you are making bad decisions, if you're not taking care of yourself. Erectile dysfunction, especially in young men, is typically predicted by smoking, drugs, anxiety, and sexual inexperience. When we rule all of those things out and then we start looking at porn, are guys anxious because porn is easy and real relationships are hard? Are guys in their head more? Are guys worried that, you know, this woman might be more difficult to satisfy than the women in porn are?

Probably, yeah, because we are.

And that can be really scary, Challenging.

I don't say difficult, but, you know, it takes some work.

When a guy reports that to me, oftentimes my first response is, well, good. Now you get to explore all the other aspects of sex that don't involve a hard penis. There is a lot more to sex than just getting an erection. And by and large, when a guy does that and takes some of the pressure off and they start learning how to. How to touch and be touched, and they start learning about all these other aspects of sexuality that, for instance, lesbian couples explore.

Exactly.

Then they take some of that pressure off and magically, their penis gets hard.

Well, okay, so this is what I want to talk to you because we talked about this on the show recently, and we talk about this all the time. But there are certain men who don't understand, who don't get that by providing female pleasure, they can also receive pleasure. Like, they don't get, like. They're like, oh, I gotta go down on her performer, else I might have lost my erection. And then there's the men, obviously, who are like, I'm all about your pleasure. And it turns me on when you're turned on. And people like, really? There's guys that don't think that I'm like, yeah, yeah, I've been with those guys, you know, once, so. But can a man ever come around like, do you teach men this? Like, listen, what if you. Because I try to teach women too. Like, for example, who don't like performing oral sex on a guy. I'll be like, you know, it's an extension of him. You love him, it's his memory, it's his penis. Can you look at it like, you know, you have the power and it's his. Beautiful, you know, whatever. But I'm wondering, and I hope that that helps many people, but I'm wondering if there's just some guys who just don't get it. Like they're just never going to see the beauty in that. They're just going to see it as work. They're going to be in their head, they're going to be like, why isn't she having an orgasm yet? You know what I mean?

I think, yeah. You know, there's only so much we can do with personality.

Well, that's what I'm saying. Is it, is it a selfishness? It's not a self awareness. You can't teach someone that this is going to make you feel, I promise this will make you feel, you know what I mean, to get them into that set.

But you can teach people to be willing to try for their partner.

Right. And that's how you work with couples.

Absolutely. You know, what are you willing to put on the table and what am I willing to. Willing to put on the table? You know, what can you survive? I think that people, again, put so much pressure on sex because sex feels so good and it's so important and we're so obsessed with sex that sometimes we treat sex as though it's too important for us to identify, that we can negotiate, we can compromise. You know, I might really not want not be that interested in doing this behavior, whatever it is, like anal sex or something else. But you know, I love you and it's not the end of the world. I'm willing to try. You know, I had the chance to meet this one couple one time who had been married like 65 years. They were like in their 90s and they were this cool curmudgeoningly old couple. And I said, you know, ultimately, how did you, how did you do it? And their answer basically boiled down to, you don't sweat the small shit in the relationship. That's right. You find ways to compromise and you accept that this other person is a whole other person. And sometimes they might do things that drive you ape shit.

And they will, and they will and you'll drive them crazy and the whole thing. But how do you get. I mean, the interesting thing is like with couples, I think it's also the way they communicate with, like, why it's like you was here. Anal sex is a great example. My boyfriend, my partner's pressuring me. He keeps pressuring me. We don't have anal sex on your birthday. Can we analyze? And then. And then it becomes a thing that you don't want to do. It's the way people talk about it as well. Like, I don't want to force you.

No.

But, hey, maybe this is something we could try. We could start off slow. But it's just. I think it's the way they communicate that there's. Communicate about it atmosphere.

Sexual communication is such a huge issue.

Huge.

We don't talk about it in a healthy way again. We put so much pressure on it. But think about it. We're not teaching people to communicate about sex in any way, shape, or form. Why are we surprised that sex is such a controversial issue?

Exactly. Well, that's, you know, that's what I'm trying to fight the good fight here, and so are you, because, you know, I'm trying to get. But it's just like. And you. But you work with them. And I talk to, you know, millions of people a week, a month on the show, and it's just like, you have to just. I think it's that people have so much shame around it, and they're afraid to share it with their partner. And if they can't actually imagine saying the words out loud and, you know, like, just practice by yourself, then what you want to say, write it down. I mean, there's got to be. It's like ripping a band aid off. And then once you start the conversation, you might not be perfect the first time, but it will improve your sex life for sure.

Absolutely. The more you can be aware of your needs and respect your partner's needs and communicate about them both, oftentimes, the more effective sexuality can be. But sometimes you have to fuck like strangers.

I agree. I try.

And so it's a balance, right?

I absolutely agree. So you have to. Because it is gonna get stale and boring after a while. It just is. And I feel like every day when I hear people that they're so surprised or like. Like, I'm so shocked if it's like, they don't know that this is gonna happen. No one warns them, like, I have friends with kids. And they're like, no one tells you how hard it is. And it's like every day people wake up, they're like, no, why aren't we having sex anymore? Why isn't as good as it was. And they just let it die. And I'm like, that's. It is. It is the. It is. It is the glue that's gonna keep your relationship together. So you can't let it sit by the wayside, which is, you know, important. And I think why you're doing good work here. So we gotta wrap up.

Oh, my God.

I know. That was really. That was amazing.

In fact, that's crazy.

I know. Really, it's been great to have you here. You can find you@facebook.com David Lay, PhD. That's L E Y. You had to get into the business because of the lay.

Dr. Davidlay on Twitter.

Yep.

And buy both your books.

Buy both my books. Twitter is a good place to find me because I usually post all the media that I do.

You do a lot of media. You're really great. I mean, I love that you're bringing attention to this because it is becoming a whole sex addiction and people are over. People are diagnosing themselves all the time too.

Oh, yeah. I'm one of the only guys that is out there saying, wait, come on, folks, this is not real science. Let's pay attention to the real issues and stop blaming sex and calling it an addiction. It's too easy. It's a cop out.

Okay, well, check out your book and thank you for being here on the show. It's great to see you. And Anderson, you rock. Thanks for being here tonight and thanks everyone for listening to Sex with Emily was good for you. Email me feedbackexwithemily.com Thanks.

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