The Science of Love: How to Predict (and Prevent) Divorce

It's really important to stress that the topics, of course, are really important in terms of what couples fight about. Those are the most common things couples fight about. However, the way they fight is what predicts divorce. The way they fight. So they could be talking about who's going to hold on to the remote for the TV, and that can lead to a divorce because of the horrible ways that they're fighting.

Real question: are you and your partner truly compatible, or are you just navigating the same storm in different boats? The idea of compatibility gets tossed around all the time, but what does it actually mean in a lasting relationship? Does it come down to shared hobbies, chemistry, star signs, or is there something deeper, more science-backed, and actually more useful? Well, in today's episode, I'm joined by two absolute legends in the relationship world, Drs. John and Julie Gottman, founders of the Gottman Institute and partners in love and research for over 30 years. They spent decades studying the actual science of what makes relationships succeed or fail. And today they're here to break down why the myth of compatibility might be messing with your love life. The 4 behaviors that are most likely to destroy a relationship. What's really going on with pheromones, attraction, and long-term connection. And how to use their book, Eight Dates, to have the kind of conversations that build real intimacy, not just surface-level, how-was-your-day talk. Before we dive in, let's set intention together. What do you want to take away from this episode? Better communication, stronger connection, maybe just some reassurance that your relationship is actually doing better than you think? My intention to introduce you to the revolutionary research back work of the Gottmans, so you can apply it to your own love life with clarity, confidence, and compassion. Let's get into it. Hello.

Hi.

Hello. Good afternoon.

Hi.

I am so excited to meet both of you. I'm a huge fan. It's a great honor to have you on the show.

Thank you.

That's very kind of you. Thank you.

Thank you for being here. Oh, I'm excited. There's so much to unpack here. I know you got the questions, but this is just, you know, there's so much to, to talk about. I am, am excited. I'm a huge fan. So we already started recording, but if there's anything you wanted to, to add, and we're gonna do your bios and promote anything you want to promote after, of course we can do that. We'll be adding that stuff in. So great. Yeah, this is great. Okay, so it is a huge honor to have you both on the show. I admire all the important work that you have been doing. You've helped so many of us, including myself, understand relationships and just the factors that contribute to having a healthy relationship, which so many of us don't understand. We don't get to go to relationship school. Most of us haven't had healthy relationships modeled. And I quote you guys all the time. I think everyone does. And you're truly pioneers, really. And so So, you know, something to start with that I'm so in awe. I mean, there's many things that I'm in awe about, but I'm in awe about the two of you is that not only have you done this groundbreaking work over 30 years together, right? 30 years together.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Um, but you've maintained, you work together and you've maintained a healthy relationship.

Yeah.

Which is incredible. Cuz sometimes people can have a great successful career together and their relationship suffers. And I also understand that the work you do is it has, contributed to that, but I just need to know how you both met. So can you just start there? Uh, sure.

So, uh, I was going to be driving about an hour to a party, and one cannot drive an hour without having coffee in your car. And so I stopped in at a little coffee, uh, cafe, and, uh, John was sitting there. I went to go order coffee, and he asked me if if I'd like to sit with him for a few minutes. Right. So we sat together for almost an hour, which made me late to the party, but I didn't really care because he was dazzling. He was dazzling. I loved his eyes. I loved his mind. I didn't really know what he did or the fact that he was already a famous person in the academic world. But I think I just kind of fell in love right then and there. Okay.

You fell in love with my car.

Well, this is true. I mean, his car was voted the ugliest car in the University of Washington faculty parking lot.

Right.

And I adored it. It was like a 19—

I don't know what—

'62 red Dodge with big white patches of Bondo all over it because he hadn't had it painted after he had all the rust patched up. And I loved his car. It was just—

I loved his car. And you loved meeting him. That's amazing. And what I know is that— what I heard is that John, too, you were— you had been dating too, right, for a while? Is it true that you went on 60 dates?

That's true. So when I got to Seattle, I'd been divorced for about 7 years and I decided, you know, school hadn't started yet and I'd get to know the city and go on as many dates as I could. So before I met Julie, I had gone out on 60 dates in 10 weeks. She was number 61. And she was a clear outlier. I had a database.

I mean, that is incredible. Were you tracking the dates? Were you writing notes about them? Or could you just— you just kept moving until you found someone that you liked?

You know, I didn't think I'd find the love of my life. But I thought I'd find somebody to go to movies with or out to dinner. And And I did meet people like that, but nothing compared to Julie.

Okay. And you just knew.

Yeah.

And then you started working together, which I love because I've also heard you say— well, thank you for sharing that story. I've heard you also say that— I think Julie was in an interview— you said, you know, we're not relationship gurus. You know, you've just learned from a lot of the successful couples that you've worked with over the years, which— and I would also say that does make you relationship gurus. But through the years of research and of observing, like, all these couples, you know, you now how you learned that where couples are actually struggling, where they struggle the most. And I know this is one of your most cited pieces, but I just, for my listeners, so you can predict. So what you've figured out together is you can predict with confidence and accuracy what separates, I'm gonna use your words here, the masters of relationships from the disasters in relationships. Right. You can tell with confidence which relationships are gonna succeed and which ones are not, right?

Uh, basically that's true. Um, however, that's a given that, uh, they're not getting any kind of intervention in the 6 years between, uh, when we first see them and later on when we find out what's happened to them.

Okay, so they're not— so you mean So it's after— it's after that process of 6 years that you—

Well, what I mean is that they came into the lab, they were hooked up to various physiology equipment and they were videotaped and so on. And they would just have a couple of conversations with one another, each conversation for 15 minutes. They would also just be interviewed about the history of their relationship. And that was important. And then we'd say bye-bye, they'd leave the lab, and we'd check in on them every couple of years. And within about 6 years, we could tell based on that day they came into the lab what would happen to them 6 years down the road with 94% accuracy, given that they didn't have any intervention, any therapy, for example, between when we when we saw them and when we checked in with them later.

Actually, if they got therapy, they were more likely to divorce than if they got no therapy. Yeah, that's what Bob Levinson and I found.

Bad therapy.

Yeah, it's always— but, you know, things are different. In the last 25 years, Julie and I have worked together to create a new therapy and new ways of helping couples. And now Things are much better and much rosier. So you can help people avoid relationship disaster and to some degree turn a disaster into a master.

Okay, so, so what you're saying is if they had therapy in the 6 years with you, like you said, they have some bad therapy, but if they were with you, like in the— we're talking about the Love Lab, right?

Right.

Okay, well, if so, you know, basically what happened is at first, and John started this work before he and I met 35 years ago. So about 45 years ago, he was working with his colleague Robert Levinson, who is a professor at UC Berkeley. And they did a lot of the initial lab work determining what predicted divorce or staying together unhappily or staying together very happily. So they were the ones that determined those principles, and then we continued the work after John and I met. But what we also did 25 years ago is to make a decision that we wanted to create theory and interventions based on what we saw the successful couples do try those out in a workshop, and then see whether or not they actually worked, fine-tune them, and then begin teaching them to therapists and doing the therapy ourselves, doing the workshops. And then it just spread like wildfire around the world because people really didn't know what successful couples were doing to make them successful. Until John and Bob figured it out.

Well, let's— we could get into that. Like, let's find out what are the successful couples doing?

Well, first of all, let's talk about what they're not doing.

Well, yeah, we could talk about— yeah, we could talk about— let's talk about— yeah, exactly. We could do— there's so many different ways to go here. Let's talk about what they're not doing. What are they not doing? That would be the—

yeah, right. Okay. So when they bring up a conflict, they're doing typically a lot of what we call the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Yes. Those are very big predictors of relationship demise. The first one is criticism, which means they'll look at a problem they're having and they'll blame the other partner and put the other partner down with criticism. "You're so lazy. You never clean up the kitchen. What's the matter with you?" "Here's what's wrong with you." "Here's what's wrong with you." So criticism. Secondly, They will use contempt, and contempt is a bit like criticism, but it's coming from a more superior place. So it has sarcasm sometimes. It will have an eye roll, you know, like, "Oh my God, really? Are you really that stupid?" That kind of stuff that if you have teenagers in your life, you've seen it a lot. So contempt turned out to be the worst thing for a relationship. It's really terrible.

Yeah, I use contempt. I mean, I think about contempt a lot. That's something from your work that stands out so much. Can we just stop there? Give me some examples of contempt just so people really get it, what it might look like.

Sure. Oh, you think I'm driving too fast? Oh, you're scared? Oh, Mockery, one. "You slut, you disgust me." Name-calling, contempt. Sarcasm. "You wouldn't even think of doing the laundry, would you? It doesn't even occur to you." You know, that kind of thing. It's just this massive put-down that's even worse than criticism.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, absolutely. So what's the, and then the next one, we're talking about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which we talk about often on the show. So yeah, the next one, we did 3.

Yeah, so number 3 is defensiveness. So that's the hardest one really for people to do less of. We never really lose it altogether. But defensiveness is either, it's a response to feeling put down or attacked. And so a person will be defensive by either being kind of a righteous victim, like, "What do you mean? I do pay the bills on time. I always pay the bills," you know, that kind of thing. Or counterattacking, "Oh yeah? Well, you got a traffic ticket last week," you know, that kind of stuff. So it's counterattack. That's defensiveness, number 3. And number 4 is what we call stonewalling. And stonewalling really means that during a conversation, you are in effect shutting yourself so completely down to the other person that you're not responding to them at all. You may not be looking at them at all. You don't say anything at all. And I'm not talking about a short pause, like a pause to think of an answer. It's for minutes at a time. There's no response, no head nod, no, "Uh-huh, I get it." Nothing. You're turning into a stone wall. That's the fourth one.

Okay, those are the four that you observed with how many couples over the years now?

A couple thousand, 3,000.

So this is what— and it doesn't have to— are all of those present? Does just one have to be present?

Yeah. One of the interesting things was that the masters of relationship, even if their partners were critical, rather than counterattacking, getting defensive, or whining and acting like an innocent victim, they took responsibility. They said, "That's interesting. Maybe I can be selfish and thoughtless at times. Tell me more about what you feel." and tell me what you need. And that was a very different response than pushing off, you know, pushing away what the partner is saying. So that became a very different way of talking, just, you know, saying, if you're upset, I really want to hear about it. And that really gave us a window into what it is that people are doing when relationships are going well.

Right, right. So that, right, exactly. That's what works. So one person could be stonewalling or, or it could be, you know, and then the way the partner reacts is sort of diffusing it.

Yeah.

And sort of, and then that might actually turn it around.

That's right. That's right.

So, so the thing is, I'm just wondering, is this the kind of thing when we see partner people doing this, like, I just wonder, could we all learn that? Like, are there couples that have just been together a few weeks and they could just come to one of your labs and they could Could we learn these skills? Because you'd save so much heartache. You'd save, you'd save so many problems in relationships before they walk down the aisle. And I get many people won't even go through the door because they're riding the dopamine bliss of a new relationship. But I think that it's just so— I mean, now I think I've even heard you said you can predict it in under an hour because you are the masters, right? You could probably tell it.

Emily, you know, one of the things that we discovered is that in prevention, And when couples take a workshop, and usually they're really interested in taking a workshop to improve their relationship when they're expecting a baby and they don't want the baby to be negatively affected by their arguing. And they just come to a workshop that lasts 10 hours. We can avoid all these negative consequences for almost 80% of couples. And just 10 hours.

These are the couple— these are the workshops that you do around the, around the world, right?

We do a lot of workshops around the world, but this particular workshop was just an amazing research study. We didn't expect the results to be that good between the couples who expected a baby and did the workshop. It was a 2-day workshop, 5 hours each day, and the couples who didn't. Do the workshop. But, uh, is right, 80% of those couples did really, really well, uh, compared to maybe about 25% of the couples who didn't do the workshop, right? Wow.

I mean, how can we make this a requirement? I mean, I, I would love all of my listeners to go because I feel like at least if you're listening now, try to sign up for a workshop because I always tell my listeners that they, they really, therapy is crucial. I believe that everyone needs therapy. And really, I think it's, it's a requirement. I think, you know, that something's going to happen at some point. You might as well get into therapy before there's a huge problem, but it's really hard to get people to do that. And so do you, do you agree with that? What do you think? Do you think that most couples could benefit from therapy? The right therapy?

You know, I think, I don't know if I would say all couples, But certainly a large number of couples could really benefit from it. One of the things, Emily, that I would really love to see are high school kids getting a class in relationships, right? Because all those patterns get started so early, and they don't particularly change that much in adulthood. So if kids knew that criticism doesn't work if you're, you know, dating somebody, if they knew that it really helps helps to take responsibility for what you've contributed to a negative incident and how to do that without kind of losing yourself. I think it would be tremendously helpful for kids, and they would probably end up making better choices of life partners later on.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's so much lacking in education for, for our youth. I always say that I wish they had comprehensive, accurate sex education, but to throw in Communication, right? Maybe we can offline. I mean, I would love to create something like that. I know that they, I know that they absolutely require that. I— so you're talking about kids though, and tell me what you think about this, because I do, I see it all the time, that having kids is going to change your relationship in many ways.

Absolutely.

And I usually focus on— I hear from people when it's the sex, they stop having sex, they stop initiating sex. And so How much of that have you ever talked to couples about that and what to do? And we'll get into your book, Eight Dates. So we can always talk about Eight Dates. I think it's a fabulous read. Everybody needs to read this book no matter where you're at in your relationship. But I know you talk about sex there too, being, you know, a really important factor that— ask these questions, do it now, go on the sex date, right? I mean, that's an important thing to get ahead of.

And one of the things that we discovered was that And this was backed up by a study done at UCLA by the Sloan Institute that especially for dual career couples, a lot of times everything takes priority over the relationship. The children do, the career does. And essentially relationships die by being ignored and they stop really having romance and playfulness and fun and adventure. You know, we found in a very large study we did that of couples about to start therapy, 40,000 couples, gay, lesbian, and heterosexual couples, 80% of them said that fun had come to die in their relationship. And that's what the Sloan study found as well, is that people stop really romancing one another. They stop playing together and having fun and, you know, really having an erotic life with one another.

They do because they don't know how.

Yeah, I think that what you mentioned, Emily, is really a good point, which is that a lot of new parents find sex going over a cliff. And I think, you know, there's, there's a lack of real understanding of what's happening there. And when we did our study, which was part of our book Bringing Baby Home, What we saw is that couples, first of all, underestimated how much work a child is. They underestimated the effects of sleep deprivation. And what research has shown about sleep is that you don't have to actually have less hours of sleep, but after 30 days of interrupted sleep, you are going to show almost every clinical sign of depression, including a loss of sex drive. So, you know, it's very typical for parents who are losing sleep, of course, with a new child to get more irritable, feel exhausted all the time, just want to think about the baby and nothing else. And they forget how to really connect with one another, prioritize time with one another. I've seen couples, for example, it's really funny, who they would have a date a month, an overnight where, you know, Grandma and Grandpa would come in, take care of the baby. They'd go for a date and they would go to a hotel, you know, thinking it would be really romantic. What would they do? They'd both fall asleep.

Which is the most romantic thing ever. No one woke us up for 9 hours and it was hot.

Oh man, it's true.

And it's— I mean, I love that we're normalizing this because it's fun. Every time someone has a baby or they go through the situation, they think they're the only ones. I can't believe this is happening. And then you're so in it, it's almost too late. I mean, it's never too late, but it's almost like they just— they can't even think their way out of it. So I love that you have these couples coming to you. And now I just have a question that I've always I've heard this before, and I want to see if you think this is true, that, that sex, having kids, and money are three of the biggest factors, predictors of divorce, or those are the biggest challenges in a relationship. Would you agree to that? Maybe I heard it from you.

Yeah, there's some truth in that, particularly the money disputes. Very often are labeled as the big predictors of divorce. But we've actually found that that's kind of a superficial view because arguments about money are almost always arguments about what money means. And underneath there is really about your values, about how to live life and what life means. So one thing that's happened during COVID to good relationships is people have really talked about their lives together and how they can have more meaningful connection in their lives. And so I think the fights about sex, money, and other things, really, a lot of times they're about the absence of connection, emotional connection. And physical connection. And they sort of, you know, take a back seat to what really is vital in a relationship, keeping it alive.

Also, I think it's really important to stress that the topics, of course, are really important in terms of what couples fight about. Those are the most common things couples fight about. However, the way they fight is what predicts divorce, the way they fight. So they could be talking about who's going to hold on to the remote for the TV, and that can lead to a divorce because of the horrible ways that they're fighting, the ways that they're using those Four Horsemen instead of the antidotes to those, which have much more to do with describing yourself, describing your own feelings. "I'm lonely. I really miss you. I miss touching you. Could we have a romantic night tonight?" Asking directly for what you need and not asking in a way that says, "Would you please stop doing this?" We call that a negative need.

Right, exactly.

But rather a positive need. You tell your partner how they can shine for you. And who doesn't want to shine for the other person, right?

Exactly. Well, this is why when— what you're saying is— I love your book, 8 Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, and I'm obsessed with it because I do believe that every couple could benefit from this book. And the title Dates might be misleading to people. They go, dating? I'm already married. It's perfect for you because really, if you've been with your partner for 10 months, 20 years, It's, it wa— it's all about communication. And it's a guide that walks you through how to talk and to listen in a way, you know, that's beneficial for, for you as a couple. So it's what you're saying is it's not really about the money. It's not that you went out and bought that pair of shoes. And it's not that, you know, really necessarily even about the sex. And so what I love is that you, cuz what I get asked a lot is that people say, oh, I don't know how to even have those conversations, but you lay it out in 8 dates. And it's very specific questions that on that date, you just get your partners. I mean, I think any partner who would wanna be a good lover and be a good partner, I would say, yeah, once a week, or let's say once a month, we'll go on a date and then just take your book as a script because you, you emphasize a lot about the open-ended questions rather than just the closed questions. And I think that's just a concept that is, is so important because it's really how we listen, how we do deepen it, and how we start to understand. It wasn't about money, it's about your relationship to money, about your upbringing, about what you've been told about money and fears. Right. You know, I know a lot of couples don't want to do that walk. They just want to stay maybe more in the superficial, but hopefully that people listening to the show are coming to see you.

Yeah, they're really about keeping curiosity alive in one another. They're not confrontational. They're sort of like asking couples, well, you know, how did your parents do it? And what's your background? What's your history with getting angry? What's your history with conflict? I know, how do you like to talk about things? And, you know, what do you feel about commitment and Trust. How did your parents show that they were trustworthy or failed to do that? You know, how can we feel more trusted in one another? Those kinds of questions. Yeah.

Yeah.

We field-tested the dates with 350 couples who recorded their dates. So we really know they work.

Right. Exactly. And I love how important those dates are. They really do work. They deepen the relationship. So you, you use those, you know, 8 concepts in the book to create different dates and exercises and open-ended questions to deepen the relationship connection. So maybe you can like walk us through, because I think we're gonna hit on a lot of things there. You know, some of the dates, some of the most important of the sex, of the date, not sex date. Okay. I wanna talk about the sex date. I do, but there's a few, which dates, um, do you find the most, you know, there's the conflict date, the money date, the, the, the sex date. There's the, you know, what else are there? The kids' date, the trust date, the conflict date. I do want to get into conflict. So maybe we could give just some examples here. Is there one that's your favorite?

The first date turned out to be in a lot of ways the most powerful emotionally, where they're talking about trust and commitment. You know, can you lean on me? Are you going to be there for me? And what's been your experience in other relationships? And what did you see with your own family? How did people show one another that they could really be there, count on that person to be there in hard times? You know, we say that in the wedding vows, right? You know, in sickness and health and, you know, for better or for worse. But how do you actually act when things are worse?

Yeah, exactly.

Like, yeah, you're still there. So that conversation turned out to have a lot of juice. People really wanted to talk about commitment and trust.

Yeah, it's important because if we don't have trust in a relationship, as you've seen, it's really— how do you, how do you really move on from that and then understand it with through this work? And I think I just want people to understand that it's You know, maybe you don't want to go to therapy, that's okay. But I think again, this book is a great gateway. I, I see it as like a mini therapy. It's your own way to do it without going to actually to see counselors, but just to take it with you and to use it as a guidepost. So even if you're dating someone, I love that.

So what's your favorite date, Julie?

Yeah, what's your favorite date?

I think my favorite is, uh, the date on dreams. Um, not nighttime dreams, but Looking at your own dreams for your own life, you know, we get so caught up in the minuscule, in the tasks, in the pick up the laundry, and who's going to make dinner tonight, you know, all that stuff, what happened at work today. However, all of us are philosophers. Every single person, no matter what your education is, all of us have built a system of values, and we look at the sense of purpose and meaning in our lives only in little tiny glimmers of light over the course of our life. It's so very difficult for us to carve out time to think about, okay, what do I dream about doing? What do I dream about being. Who do I want to be as a human being? How do I want to give to the world? What's my dream of the legacy I want to leave behind? What great adventures have I dreamed about doing that at this point seem impossible, but they still, you know, linger in my mind? So it's a sharing of those deeper layers that we normally do not enter into because our lives are so cluttered, so cluttered with tasks and trivia. So that date I adore. The other thing too is that, you know, everybody shares dreams and so on when they first get together and when they, you know, commit to one another and so on. Then you get busy. Well, the reality is that over the course of time, people change. Experience changes us. The history that we're living through, for example, this pandemic, is changing people so dramatically, not only superficially but at a much deeper level in terms of their values, in terms of what they dream about doing when they can fly. I could finally get out, you know, in a world with safety. So sharing those thoughts and how your dreams have changed over the decades can be really a momentous conversation.

Yeah, I mean, I think you're so right. I love what you're saying about dreams because you're right, we do often share that when we start dating somebody, and maybe that's what even attracts Talks you to them that they have these dreams and passions of who they're gonna be and what they're gonna do. But then life gets busy and you have a kid and it is about the laundry and paying the bills. And slowly but surely each one of you have little dreams that you're, that are dying. Like maybe every year they're just getting a little bit more repressed. And so to have it, to be able to talk about it and say, you know, this is still important to me. This is who I am. And I think this might be the antidote to, we always hear that couples couples grew apart. Well, we just grew apart. Well, this would kind of prevent that if you kept kind of monitoring. Well, I'm— we grew apart because I was going after my dream. I mean, I've heard this, this is sort of a cliché example, but well, I was home with the kids, but you were out doing this thing and you were out living your life and I didn't get to live my dream. So I guess I just love this idea of getting people to, to stick with these conversations that why you fell in love and what attracted you to each other. It's so important.

Yeah. Right.

So, so how important though are the, the, um, how important are the differences between the, how important are the similarities versus the differences in people's dreams and people's personalities and, and how they move through the world? How similar do we have to be?

Yeah, there is a huge myth out there. It's probably the most common myth about relationships that you have to be compatible and how compatible are you. But the reality is that, you know, if you're truly compatible, you're a clone of the other person and you get bored silly relating to them, right? So you really want to have a person who is different from you, and that is fine, that is great. The key to really having a successful relationship when your dreams are very different from the other persons is, do you support each other's dreams even though they're not yours? Now, there's going to be exceptions to that where your partner's dream is your nightmare. Well, okay, that's, you know, not going to happen probably. But I'll give you a classic example in our relationship. So I love to go to really crazy, crazy places on adventures. So I went to Antarctica. By myself about, I don't know, maybe 5 years ago or something. It was fabulous. No way in the world John was going to go with me. Not— he's not. Okay, he's changed since then, um, and I really, really, really, really missed him a lot on this insane adventure I went on. And so, um, next spring I proposed another adventure. So I turned 70 last April, and of course it was the midst of the pandemic. There was no way in the world to celebrate it. Couldn't travel, couldn't do anything, right? So I said to John, honey, I really want to go to the Arctic next spring, and how about we go to the Arctic in honor of my 70th birthday that never happened and your 80th birthday that will have just happened. Let's go to the Arctic. And he said, oh my God, really? And I said, really, it's okay, you can stay inside and read a book in the cabin. It's okay, it's okay. And he said, yeah, that sounds great, as long as we can go to Amsterdam first, which is his dream because he loves Amsterdam. I do love Amsterdam, right?

So it's an honoring of both And it's a compromise too, in a way, like figuring out, I know you, you've talked about this too, which I'd love to, to, if you kind of drill down on that too, cuz what I see is most couples like, you wanna go to Antarctica and I wanna go to Amsterdam. This won't work. Like, why are you selfish wanting to go on your adventure? And this is what I wanna do. But you made that work and you make it sound easy, but you've also been working at it for so long. So what does that process compromise in a relationship?

Well, you know, it really bothered me that Julie really enjoyed Antarctica, but she was alone a lot. And that was hard for me to hear about. So, you know, I realized I had to go on some of these adventures as well. And the Arctic is pretty interesting.

It wasn't so bad.

And I can do it in a way that, you know, I can enjoy it as well. So—

A lot of books.

A lot of books, right? Okay.

Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I mean, it's just a great way you talk about it because so many people just split in that they're like, no, but it's really a matter of drilling down. Why is this important to you? Why do you want to go there? How can we make it work for all of us? Which isn't always easy for everybody. Yeah, I love that. I want to talk about too, about the— I want to get back into about conflict for a minute and in relationships, cuz that's a lot of what we, you know, there's so many conflicts and there's so many problems that people just won't get past. They might not go to therapy. And I've always said, it seems like you're repeating the same things over and over. And then hearing your stat, 69% of conflicts are never solved. And in fact, they stay the same. So over years, so like this is never gonna change. But then yet we call these relationships still successful. How is that possible?

Well, here's the thing. You know, the question about successful relationships isn't do they solve all their problems? It's again, how do they dialogue about those problems? How do they dialogue? Right. So, you know, you were talking about compromise. Well, one of the things that is really, really important is taking the time to really understand your partner's point of view about a particular conflict and where it comes from, what it's about for them, what's the history behind that, childhood history, other relationship history. Why is it so important to you that you have this particular position on the issue? Really lived? Why? What is the underlying sense of purpose and meaning for you in having your position on the issue honored? And when you have that kind of conversation with one person as the listener and the other as the speaker, and that listener just staying with question after question to really understand the other person's point of view, And then reversing the roles so there's deeper understanding. Then compromise becomes so much easier because you develop compassion and a much deeper appreciation for your partner's internal world regarding their position on a conflict issue. You're never going to see things.

You don't solve it, but maybe you could. I know I've heard. Could you maybe give me some examples about how a conflict that stays the same, but how you kind of learn to judge it so it works in a way.

We call it the dreams within conflict. And we analyzed 950 of these conflicts that seemed like deal breakers where they're sort of opposed to each other and compromise seems unthinkable because in these deal breakers, you're kind of selling yourself out if you compromise. That's the way it feels. And so, After we analyzed that, and we also saw that in our own relationship as well, we found that some of these sort of unsolvable problems become the points of better connection. So, you know, an example from our own relationship, for example, was that, you know, we now live on Orcas Island in the San Juan Islands, north of Seattle. And we vacationed here when we were first married and we really loved it. We loved canoeing on the ocean and we really enjoyed it. And at a certain point, Julie really felt like she wanted to have a cabin on Orcas Island, a small cabin. And I was opposed to it, strongly opposed to it. And she really wanted to do it. And I didn't understand the reasons for it. I thought it was extravagant. We already had a house. We could rent. I had all kinds of objections to it. And we finally went to therapy to try to get help with this. And the therapy didn't work. The therapist said to me, John, you can say no to Julie and she has to live with it. And I turned to Julie and I said, "Do I sound like her?" And Julie said, "Yeah, you do." And I said, "Well, let's quit therapy and talk about this more deeply." You're fired, right?

Not all therapists are great. A lot of bad therapy out there.

So, you know, so she really asked me a lot of questions about why I was so opposed to this. And I asked her a lot of questions about why she wanted it so much. We found that there were deep reasons about why I was opposed to it, which had to do with my parents having survived the Holocaust and having to flee from Austria with absolutely no possessions at all. They lost everything. My parents always conveyed this idea that you shouldn't trust in property, or things. You should only trust in what you can carry in your mind. And so the idea of trusting in property to me was terrifying, right? Yet Emily really was born in the United States and wasn't a refugee like me. And she had grown up really appreciating nature in a very deep way and wanted to be a steward of nature. Which is something I didn't understand when we first married and learned to understand over time. So as we heard each other's reasons for wanting this, we decided to embark on an experiment and try it for a couple of years, buy a small place and see how it felt. And, you know, we tried the experiment and we both fell in love with having a home here.

I love that example because so I think the opposite of that is couples saying that just it just continues to be a fight for the rest of their relationship. Never let me live in the country. But you have that skill set of listening and teaching. I guess people learn this from you, but we are not born listeners, right? Active listening.

Right.

We really learned it from the couples in the lab who, you know, took these deal breakers and asked each other questions that deepened their understanding of their partner's point of view. And, and Julie really is the one who was insightful enough to see that this was an important therapy technique because of her background as a therapist.

Wow, you guys are like couples goals. Really, your relationship is like a goal. Like, I look at your relationship like, this is how it should be done. Let's get into sex real quick in relationships because I want to talk about like specifically the role of sex. And I loved your chapter in your book 8 Dates, because it brings to light how different people approach and experience talking about sex. I mean, I encourage people to talk about sex all the time. And one of the big things I always say, people like, what are the top questions you get asked? And I say, people just always wanna know if they're normal. I'm always like, it's okay. It's okay. Masturbation's okay. You want sex once. And people like, how? And people wanna know, should I be having sex once a week, 10 times a week? I said, well, it's what works for you in the relationship. I'm not here. I'm not the numbers police. I'm not going to knock on your door and say, you didn't have sex enough this week. But can you talk about, you know, like what, what are the traits of couples that you found that have a great sex life? It's really, you know, normally you talk about the normals too.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, you know, here's a, the largest study ever done on this question was done with 70,000 couples. And in 24 different countries. And they had that one question: What's different about people who say they have a great sex life compared to people who say they have a bad sex life? And, you know, reading that study, I was able to list about a baker's dozen of things that people did who had a great sex life. And none of them had to do with what happened in the bedroom. They were all things like People who have a great sex life tell each other they love them and mean it every day. They ask questions. They give compliments. They give surprise romantic gifts. They cuddle. They know their partner's preferences sexually. They know their partner's sort of inner world of desire, what turns them on and turns them off. And, you know, they really stay good friends. And that's so fascinating, I think.

Yeah, I think also successful couples are really, really good at both initiating and refusing sex without putting pressure on the other person. So I'll give you an example. I had a couple where he wanted more sex than she did. This was a hetero couple, and She had had a history of sexual abuse, and so when he would initiate and she would refuse, he would get angry at her. And the anger felt like a reenactment of the sexual abuse, in the sense that if she didn't conform to his desire and do what he wanted, then she was a bad person. Right? And that's oftentimes how a perpetrator will make a sexual abuse survivor feel.

Yeah, she's re-traumatized every time, right?

That's right. So she was re-traumatized every single time. And I mean, it was, it was a very, very difficult case, very difficult situation. But what ended up happening that really, really helped is This was a woman who came from a deeply religious background and had never had anything more than a kiss on the cheek. He had been married 3 times before and was a porn addict, right? So what he expected of her was complete pornographic sex, basically, with him in control all the time. And it was scheduled according to his needs, which was 3 times a week at 9:00 PM. So we stopped all of the sex. She had no idea of what she liked at all, zero, because it had all been his preference. And so I gave her one of my favorite books in the whole wide world by Lani Barbach called For Yourself: Female sexuality. It's all a mystery to me. It's all a mystery.

Can I just say, my, my, that was the first my mom gave. I told my mom when I was like 20, I'd never had an orgasm. I didn't know what masturbation was. I was like 20-something in college. My friends, I said, Mom, I never even had an orgasm. She gave me that book, Lonnie Barbac, For Yourself. And I still have it on my shelf. It was my first masturbation book. Anyway, I've never hear anyone else bring it up. So that was a moment.

Okay.

Yeah. Lonnie Barbac. Yeah.

Your mother was just spot on.

Good for her.

Because it's one of the best books ever written for women. And Lani went on to create programs to help women with their own sexuality, videos, more books, and so on. She's really been a huge contributor, especially for women in the field of sex. So this woman read the book, did all the exercises by herself, And by the end of about 8 months or so, which is what it took her, during which they were abstinent, by golly, then she could ask him for what she needed and what she wanted. And the reality was that, you know, he knew she wasn't there really emotionally. She was more like a zombie who was putting up with his sexual needs. And he missed her. He missed her. He felt lonely. He felt disconnected when they had sex. So now they were able to move back into having a sexual relationship in which both of their needs mattered, with hers mattering first, more so, and then eventually reaching a balance. Where they were so much more fulfilled because she learned what she loved sexually, sensually, and could convey that. Had to tell him specifically, and this woman didn't know she had a clitoris, right?

So a lot of— with nothing, a lot of things haven't changed, but a lot of women don't. But what I love that you're saying, and it reinforces something that we talk about a lot here, is that A lot of people, we just haven't done the work. We just allow— and a lot of women who were raised, it could be more performative during sex or just kind of give up and kind of fake orgasms. It just, you have to take time. It might be 8 months. It might be, you know, 8 weeks. You just study it and you say, I'm going to figure out what I want so I can come back to you and show up as a fully, you know, more sexual being and not looking at our sexuality in the eyes of our partners, but sort of figuring out what we want. So that's a, that's a, a beautiful story about that. And I also know that you've, you've talked about the, um, the initi— oh, the, uh, initiating. We kind of covered this, but that I— what I love, it was research, you said that 70% of people use indirect strategies to ask for sex, like they indirectly do it. And why not just be more direct? I just love that you cover that, right? Like we're just sort of setting ourselves up for failure there.

Gay and lesbian couples are more likely to be direct than heterosexual couples.

Yeah, exactly, right? It's just— and then also they talk about the importance of kissing. I know kissing is so important. Have you found that kissing is the first thing that goes in long-term relationships? And I think you have found in some studies how important, how important kissing is.

There's a German study that shows that German men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live 5 years longer than German men who do not.

That's not a good enough example for everybody to kiss your partner before you go to work. I don't know what is. I mean, come on, how hard is that? But we're really talking about constant connection and communication, right? Right. The healthiest thing that we see in relationships. We just have a few more minutes here. I want to know, uh, real quickly, can we talk about pheromones and attraction?

Sure.

I know it's a big question, but I get asked it all the time. Like, what is attraction? Do we have to be the same? And I know the t-shirt study and all the things, but what is that about attraction and pheromones? We could talk about it too, the t-shirt study.

Yeah.

Claus Wedekind, a German researcher, found that women prefer the smell of t-shirts that men wore for a couple of days when the men are most different from them genetically. Just in terms of the genes of the immune system. So that women are much more interested in men who are genetically diverse from them. And that has an obvious evolutionary advantage for your children. You know, if you have the genes of very different immune systems, your children are more protected. But here's this unconscious process happening and it's coming out in smell and other things that we probably aren't measuring. And the study was done, would those women actually like those men better whose smells they like better? And that study was done and it's true, they do like them better. So, you know, here we are, we're selecting people who are very different from us and we're most attracted to people who are very different from us. And the big mistake that people make is once they get together, If they try to turn their partner into them by being critical, then the relationship is going to go south. As opposed to really accepting the differences and really learning from and benefiting from celebrating those differences.

How can we bring the t-shirt study into today? I'm just trying to think through all of your work and everything I read and study. It's like you guys have the answers. And everyone's running around trying to figure it out. Is there a way to kind of hack the— hack attraction? Can we do a little mini t-shirt study? Like, how can we find out that we're making these choices of the right partner? Like, what, what do we— what, are there anything quick answers or things that we could just know that these are the things that have to be in place before you walk down the aisle or even go on the third date? Is there any way to know?

So we have an app that is free that people can download if they go to the App Store and type Gottman card decks, one of the card decks is 100 questions you can ask a woman about her inner erotic world and 100 questions you can ask a man about his inner erotic world. And they can download that for free. It's been downloaded 350,000 times so far. And then they can know if they're sexually compatible.

I love it. I love your app. I'm just telling you, I have it. I recommend it all the time. Maybe I'm responsible for like 20 of those downloads. But yeah, it's so well done.

But to address the broader question, you know, you asked, how can you know that you're really looking at somebody who you can have a really good relationship with? So attraction, of course, is a really important thing. But I would say there are several other factors that are really important. One is, does your partner actually do what he or she or they say they're gonna do. In other words, do they follow through with what they say they're gonna do? Because a lot of times people will experience, 'Oh, I'll call you next week,' and then they never do. So leave that one.

Okay.

Secondly, are they there for you when you need them in all kinds of different situations? Are they there for you when you want to celebrate a triumph? Are they there for you when you want to talk about a defeat? Are they there for you when you're physically sick? Are they there for you when you're depressed? Are they there for you when you want to go out and have a fabulous, you know, ecstatic, spontaneous, fun time? Are they there for you when you really need help with your kid? Are they there for you? That's probably the biggest to question along with sexual attraction. Yeah, that really makes a big difference.

It speaks to trust.

Okay. I don't know. Well, now you've brought up— that is super helpful. Are they there for you? Do they show up? Would they stay there? Are they reliable? Question about that sexual attraction. And I'm going to— I get asked all the time, like, if I wasn't attracted, I was never really attracted to my partner, but now I'm wondering if I could learn to be attracted to them. Like, I learned they're my best friend. We do everything together. I love them, their family loves me, I love them, but we've never— the sex wasn't there. Do you think you can create that if it wasn't there in the beginning?

You know, it depends on what it is you want to create. If you want to create a really hot, vibrant, really super duper passionate sex life, Probably not. However, if you want to create a sex life that is tender, that is loving, that is sweet, that is satisfying sexually, but may not be the hottest, most passionate thing in the whole wide world with fireworks, good enough.

Yeah, I guess it's deciding what sex— the importance of what it means to you. Again, Good enough. What sex means to you. Good enough. Yeah.

Okay.

I have a few more questions. This is from our Instagram. We told our Instagram audience you were coming on the show and they were very happy. So we have a few questions from them. You can just answer them here. We have— this is from someone who says we have a toddler and a baby. There is no gas left in the tank and we're losing our connection and chemistry. Help. Which I think we already probably answered that, to be honest. But do we kind of answer that?

Do you guys have a date night? Date night. Date night. Date night. Go on a date once a week, no matter what. Have a bank of babysitters you can call upon and go on a date. You've got to give the relationship some priority and some connection and take along with you maybe the book and just have a conversation that helps you draw closer emotionally, but sit very close together on a couch somewhere. John and I, when we didn't have much money, we would go in Seattle to a hotel that had the most beautiful lobby in the whole wide world. It was dimly lit, huge stone fireplace, big soft couches in front of it. We would go there, we'd commandeer a couch, and pretending we were guests and we would order one drink each and we'd just sit in front of the fire and talk for 3 or 4 hours and then we'd go home. Fabulous.

Non-negotiable date nights. I think that's— I think you even have some studies about that, that couples— maybe you cite in your book— couples who stick with the date night are the most successful. Or maybe it was a case study. Okay, here's another one. Steps to take while single to attract a healthy relationship.

Hmm, okay, so first of all, how do you meet somebody? Where do you meet them? You're probably not going to meet them at a bar. People go to bars for different reasons than finding the love of their life. So also, don't drink a lot, use a lot of drugs when you're first meeting somebody. You want to be sober, clear-eyed, clear-minded, so that you can really sense who this person is, right?

And be yourself.

And be yourself, right?

I love it. Okay, one more. How do couples address differing views of vulnerability and intimacy in sex? So if they have different views, or maybe it's even in the relationship, so there are different views of How vulnerable they want to be. Yeah. Yeah. One person wants to be more vulnerable and open and intimate, and the other one's just like kind of more shut down, which I guess is classic. It doesn't have to be sex, but one partner is shut down emotionally, doesn't have a lot of experience, and the other one's a little bit more open and wants— how do you crack that? How do you get them to—

Yeah. In sex in particular, right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay. So one of the things is that if a person doesn't have the vocabulary to be more vulnerable, maybe they can be more vulnerable through touch. So will they allow themselves, for example, to just be a receiver and receive touch from you that varies in all kinds of ways in terms of sensuality, and to tell you what they like and what they don't like. So, you know, one's a receiver, one's a giver. And you can touch them with your fingers, you can touch them with a piece of velvet, you can touch them with a feather, you can touch them all over their body. Where do they like to be touched the most? And when they really like it, Why do they like it? What feels good about it? What does it remind them of that makes them feel so good?

So it's a gradual opening. When people feel more safe, yes, they'll want to open up and be vulnerable.

Yeah.

I think Brené Brown has really talked so much about this in a beautiful way.

Yeah. I loved your interview with her as well. Yeah, she's great. I love her. Okay, you guys, thank you so much. Donna Julie Gottman, this is amazing. Now, I have 5 quickie questions we ask all of our guests, and they're quick. It can be one answer, one sentence. We can just go back and forth. Okay, ready? What is your biggest turn-on?

Uh, by turn-on, what do you mean?

It could mean just even like, uh, you know, um, eating chocolate. It could be when John says hello, when John looks you in the eyes, you know. It could be hearing my favorite song. Gets you in the mood to feel alive.

Okay, listening to blues, blues music. Love it. Love it.

John, what about you?

My biggest turn-on? Really taking a walk with Julie and our puppy.

You have a puppy too? Okay. I love it. Biggest turn-off? Something that's just like, nope, I'm not in the mood for any happiness or joy right now, or pleasure.

Um, watching, uh, watching a TV show where men are being violent against women.

Yeah, yeah, that'd be mine too.

Okay, what makes good sex?

Hmm. Really feeling emotionally connected and safe.

Just being with Julie.

Oh, something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships?

Don't give yourself away so easily.

It'll happen, don't worry.

Oh, and it happened. Okay. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

There's huge variation. Everything is acceptable.

Okay. I love that.

Except hurting the other person when they haven't consented to it.

I think for me, it's really that it's not rocket science. Sex isn't so difficult. And it's really about affection and caring and emotional connection and that becoming physical connection as well.

Great. I love it. Thank you both for being here so much. This is such an honor. This was a wonderful interview. And I just thank you for all the work that you do. I appreciate you so much. Yeah, this was great.

You're a wonderful interviewer.

Thank you. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, and X. It's all @sexwithemily. And I've been told I give really good email, so sign up at sexassembly.com for free guides, articles, and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. Have a question about sex, dating, or relationships? Call my hotline, 559-TALK-SEX. That's 559-825-5739. Or leave a message at sexwithemily.com/ask. And hey, was it good for you? Email me anytime at feedback@sexassembly.com. Sexwithemily.com. I'd love to hear what you're thinking.