The Sex Expert: Dr. Emily Morse on the Power of Communication in Intimacy

Hi, Emily.

Hi, Jillian.

Oh, my God, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. I've been wanting to do this for a very long time, so thank you for being here.

Of course. I'm so excited to be here. I was really looking forward to this.

Let's just dive right in, shall we?

Yeah. Yes.

Let's just do this, please. Love and sex. It's what makes the world go around that money.

Exactly.

What I would love to start with is so we. We know how important communication is inside of a relationship, but what about communicating about sex before you're actually in the relationship with the person? Because, I mean.

I never. I. If you were to look at my history, like, other than, like, you know, recent, very recent history. My. I never had a conversation about sex before I had sex with someone. It was literally like, I hope this works out. I hope I don't get fucked over. I hope this is good. I hope I have a good time, you know, and there's. There's just no. There's no education on how to have that conversation. And I think it does not matter how sex positive a person is. Sex complicates things. It complicates feelings. And. Sure. And then you get two people. One person is like, yeah, sex is like, whatever. And the other person is. Sex is everything to me. Sex means that everything is going to change for me. And they don't have a conversation, and then they. They turn their connection into something sexual. And it. It really gets messy quickly. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Oh, God, yes. Let's.

That is dating and sex.

Oh, great points. Dating and sex. Well, here's the thing. First off, we don't talk about sex in, I'm gonna say generally. And my mission has always been to let people just know this, that communication is a lubrication. I've been saying that for 20 years. The more we talk about sex, the better sex we're gonna have. But most of us don't talk about sex when we're in a relationship, when we're out of a relationship, before a relationship, during a relationship, because there's.

Fear around it. We don't know what to say. There's shame, all the things. So to ask you to answer your specific question, how do we talk about sex before we have sex with somebody? Is a really. It can be really tricky. But I feel like you have to look at, like, what do you know about yourself sexually? You could even say to somebody on the first date or whatever. Like, I have found in my Past relationships that I didn't really talk about sex enough. And it's really important to me that I'm with somebody who has a growth mindset around sex. So I'm wondering if you share those values rather than being like, I really like it 3.2 times a week and I like it, you know, I like doggy style. Like, we're not talking about that. I'm just saying that the real meat of talking about sex is being able to do it vulnerably, work out. Just like you work out everything else in a relationship. Different schedules, or when you're going to go to sleep, or the food you're going to eat, or where you're going to take your summer vacation. You also need to kind of strategize around sex. I want to normalize the fact that when you get into a relationship with somebody, sex is just going to be another one of the things that you're going to have to work on because it's going to change. You're going to want it at different times, your body's going to change, there's going to be different things you want. And so just saying, hopefully sex is on the table and it's something we can talk about. Right.

And also, what about, like, when I have sex with someone, I have an expectation that we're in a relationship.

Oh, that's huge too. Okay, so listen, this is the other thing. A lot of people are like, everyone's having like one night stands or I'm just supposed to be like sleeping around. Like that's not for everybody. So to be able to say I get really attached when I have sex with people, it's gonna make me feel like I'm going to put this relationship on a pedestal. All of a sudden I might get prematurely attached. But I realize we don't really know each other yet. So it's best for me to wait till we're intimate until I know that. Until I know you more or I know that we are committed or I know that you're not sleeping with anyone else because. Not. Because that's not okay. But I. My constitution. Personally, I won't be able to be the most open, most free, most accepted lover if I know that. So these are the conditions that I need. This is my requirement. Tell me about yours. You know, like, this is how we learn.

Yes. That's so important because people are like, how do I even. Because, you know, especially for women, I. They have this. God, there's so much conditioning that has told women that, you know, I'm not. This is. And this is more specifically in heteronormative situations. But, you know, he's not going to be interested in me or he's going to lose interest in me. If I say I, it's, you know, I would rather wait. And I always say, well, good. Well, first of all, not. Not the one who's actually interested in you.

Right, Exactly. If they're like, it's conditional on you having sex with me tonight. What a beautiful, beautiful piece of information you just got about this person that maybe not your person. Clearly you're not on the right. Same schedule right now. This person actually isn't listening to you. And about something that's very important and probably wasn't hard to say. We already can see this person, the history that you're gonna have with this person. Like, maybe it's time to not go out with them again. They did you a favor. Right? So I think that we should stop worrying how we're gonna sound and how we're gonna come across to somebody. Because the opposite of that is you never sharing your feelings and getting into a relationship where you're acquiescing and doing things that don't. You're overriding your own beliefs. And you're already doing that from the beginning. Like, you know, time to move on.

Yeah, well, that. Yeah, it's time to move on. But I think that that leads to a really important topic, which is that I do think that women in general have been very conditioned to be people pleasers and to please, especially when it comes to the bedroom. I think that there's a belief by. Shared by many women that, you know, our job in the bedroom is to.

To be the porn star, to be the pleaser, to. To perform, you know, and, and that. That belief that, you know, I'm supposed to perform because I'm supposed to be perceived a certain way. And really what is. What is the secret to this person's heart? Is my sex. And so if I am not actually performing at a level if I'm not. And I. I see this much more with women who date mental health where there's this belief if I'm not hooking him sexually, you know, if I'm not grabbing, I'm speaking metaphorically, if I'm not really like getting under his skin, you know, and the way that I'm really gonna get under his skin in a good way, the way that I'm gonna make him obsessed with me is through how I fuck him. And then what happens is that there's.

That woman Is. Or that girl is completely divorced from her own pleasure. Like, the amount you brought up doggy style, the amount of times that someone has a woman has said to me, like, yeah, I don't really like doggy style, but I do it because he likes it. And look, hey, I'm all for, like, doing certain things to please your partner that you may not be into, but, like, they literally. That's all they do because they think, well, that's what he wants. And I'm like, but what do you want? And it's a novel idea for a lot of women to not understand how important their pleasure is. And actually, anyone who's sleeping with them is going to be turned on by her being turned on.

Exactly, Jillian. That's. That's. That's everything. That's so true. A lot of us are. We're pleasers. We have sex performatively based on what we think the man's going to like or what. What we think our partner is going to be into. Because the marking, what we tell ourselves is the marking of being a great lover and being a great partner. And, like, knocking their socks off in bed like those Cosmo headlines is playing a role and doing a performance of what. What we think they want. And that is exactly how I actually started my career 20 years ago. I was like, I'm done being performative. I'm done faking pleasure, faking orgasms. This just doesn't seem very equitable to me. How is it that my partner's always having a good time ending, and I know that they had the best time of their life and I didn't. It just seems like a waste of my time. It's not very efficient. I'm not like there's any other area of my life. So I really went on a journey to figure out how the. How what. What actually feels good to me. What do I like? And that took a lot of time. And I still listen. I'm a. I don't know if you ever get reformed people pleaser. Do you ever stop being a people pleaser? I still work on that. Right. I think I. I'm a. You know, you're always. It's always part of your conditioning. But I. I really. I really check myself because I know exactly what you're saying is that when we. When I have been in my authentic pleasure and I've learned. And that's been my entire journey of even saying I'm not even gonna have sex with anyone else but myself for a while, what actually feels good in my body what kind of touch do I like? And then I can go back and think about the sex I've had as well and be like, I really required a little bit of making out and conversation, deep conversation, and the house had to be clean. I'm like, what are all the conditions I've needed to be in my best place so I can receive pleasure? And that is something that every. Is available to every woman, every human to think about it. Because as. And once we. I'm telling you all that once we. You actually know that and you do the work to figure out what I actually like, what feels good to me. You're going to be with partners or you'll attract the partners, or the partners you're with are going to fucking be relishing in the fact that they're with a woman who knows her body and what she likes. And I think that we're so worried that, like, if we don't play that, play that role, that those aren't going to be the people for us, but they're going to. They're going to abandon us or not going to want to be with us. But there's so much magic in, like, just showing up fully embodied and in our pleasure. And that is a journey. And it's okay to say, like, even to someone. I realize that a lot of sex I've been having has been more performative than. But right now I'm really focusing on what I like. And I found, like, what I'm learning is that I really love making out. I really love when you massage my back. I. When we go to dinner and we have these conversations and you really. We talk about feelings and emotions, I find myself getting more turned on. And then I'm more ready for sex. You know what I mean? It's like, there's all these layers to it. It's not just the act. I mean, like, it's not, you know, but then we'll be much more aroused and turned on and feel safe with our partners when we feel like we can express what we need. And then there's all the things about touch and slowing down. I mean, most sex goes way too fast for women.

Way too fast. Oh, God.

I always say, like, go five times slower. Like, just tell your partner. Like, we just slow everything down. And so those are some of the ways we can get into it. But I feel like get into our own pleasure. And that does start with solo sex, masturbation, Taking time to figure out what feels good, but then also, really in your relationships or when you're Dating being like, I found myself going to this pattern again. I'm about to react and about to acquiesce into sex, but I'm actually no. Now that I need to slow down, it's okay to say no. So it's all a practice.

Yeah.

But so worthwhile.

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So worthwhile. So let's talk a little bit about trauma. Yeah, Trauma and the role of sex and, you know, people getting over trauma, people getting over sexual trauma, some shame around their bodies. How does one. I get a lot of people, a lot of people over the years asking me, like, how do I. How do I go into the dating world? Or how do I bring this up to a potential partner that I've had some sort of trauma here. How do I actually let go, you know, because, you know, so much of it is like somatics. It's like when we're in our head and we're tense, like, we're going to have a very particular kind of experience sexually, when we can actually let go, that's when we're gonna have a better sexual experience. And we need safety. And especially for someone who's experienced some sort of sexual trauma that needs a lot of safety. How would you go about having that conversation?

Yeah, I love that we're talking all about the communication here because I love just talking about, like. And I know that so much of what you talk about, too, on your show, and it's like, it's Sort of. It's the same rules apply. It's like you don't want to talk about sex in the bedroom. You want to talk about it. You don't wait till you're having a trauma response or you're feeling something. Like you want to wait till you're. This is. And that's how we start to feel safe with someone. You just let them. A history of trauma that when certain things happen sexually, I get shut down. This is what I've noticed about myself. I need to feel really safe with someone before I have sex. I'm actually in EMDR trauma right now. You know, I'm working on my trauma with different modalities, or I'm really trying to trust my own body when it comes to sex. So you might find that sometimes when I'm having sex, for example, what's great for trauma is saying, I'm going to slow down for a minute. Sometimes we might be going really fast and it might be good. But I want you to know that I might want it to stop for a minute and breathe. Breathe with you and take a few deep breaths, because then I can really center in my body and then I can come back to the moment of sex. So sometimes that might happen, like just letting them know what. What you might need. I think that what I love to impart to women.

So often is that it's okay for us to stop sex. It's okay for us to get going with someone and. And be like, you know what? I. I actually would like to kind of slow down or can we take a pause? I'm going to get a glass of water. And I think where I was raised or I believed that if I was having sex with somebody, even if I went over to their house and it was under the assumption I could never change courses, I could never stop the sex from happening. I would. I would be offending them. They would get blue balls, which actually isn't even a seriously tragic thing for men.

It's fine.

I was afraid that I'd be the one that shut them down, right? So it's like all these things are like, this is just. Again, it is very somatic knowing, like, oh, I'm starting to get this response again, or I'm not feeling safe. Can we slow down? So I think, like, I love talking to partners about the therapy I've done, the work I've done, what I've learned about my body, how it works. I mean, I find it like, how else are people going to be great lovers to you? How else can someone be a great partner to you? But also it starts with being a great partner to ourself. And so if we've had trauma, it doesn't mean your sex life is over and you can never have sex. It just means, like, now you have really actually more information to, to work on with yourself and with your partner. But it's really important to do some, some work around it, like trauma therapy. And even sometimes you can just work it out with a partner who's willing to kind of go slow with you and be. Be a great. Be a pre. Be present.

Yes.

Really?

Yeah. I mean, I think that's huge. You know, when you were saying what you were saying before really made me think about foreplay. And that foreplay really did, like, begins well before even the first touch. At least for me it does. Yeah, it's like, it's more energetic. It's like, I. I don't know, it's. It's like trying to define arousal and attraction and chemistry. It's so hard to pinpoint. It's just like, it is just me watching you, like, be yourself, you know, in a room that has nothing to do with me. You know, maybe it's like the way you, like, smiled at me or the way you, like, I don't know, got me a glass of water. Foreplay is.

It's true though. Foreplay is everything. It's not just a suggestion. It's actually a requirement. People like, oh, foreplay would be a nice to have. No, it's actually a requirement. We need time to get aroused and turned on. And I call them arousal styles. Also in my book, I talk about. In smart sex, I talk about. Because arousal and desire get very conflated. They're pretty much the same thing. Desire is the want to. Want to have sex. And arousal is actually the. The arousal, like our genitals, like getting. Getting an erection or the blood flow, but the desire. So it's really. It's like desire style, sort of raw. It means, okay, we can use them interchangeably. But thinking about what is it that I require to be in the mood for sex? So maybe it's. I've had a really great conversation with my partner. We went to dinner, we went to a movie. We did things that made us feel connected. For some people, it's, you know, we did a physical activity together. We went to work out or we went to hike together. We tried a new thing that really bonded us. We got that same dopamine from feeling connected. And then there's like the physicality of Our space. For some people, I have to know that the house is clean, the dishes are away, I finished up my work. Like, I can't just rush into sex. There just needs to be a Runway. There's like an arousal Runway that needs to happen. A desire so you can think about what is your arousal Runway. What are all the things. You gotta reverse engineer it. So even if you people think like you're saying, jillian, when was the. When do you feel the most attracted to your partner? The most sexual, the most around? I mean, if you think about patterning, you could think, what are all the things that were required to get me to this place? And it probably wasn't when your partner just came home from work and grabbed you and said, I'm ready for set when you're in the middle of something. So it's like we get to dictate what that looks like. We know what times of day. Maybe we're more like, I know in night, like past 10 o', clock. Like, I go to bed early. Like, I'm. I'm not. Like, I've let my partner know. Like, like Tuesday night, 10 o', clock, probably not gonna happen. And it probably won't happen on Wednesday. But, like, I'm really good on the weekends. I'm not great in the early mornings, but I might be great in the late afternoon. Cause we work from home, right? So, like, there's just. So you're just saving yourself and then you get to troubleshoot it. You get to be like, okay, now I know that about. Thank you for telling me that. Because then we get into this cycle with our partners where they're making a bid for sexual. And we were rejecting them because it's really not our time and we don't feel it. And then it becomes this. Like, it still is this one mysterious part of our relationship where we're like, I hope I get enough foreplay and I hope that they're in the mood at this right time and the stars will align and we'll both want to have sex. And at the same time, that's not reality. We don't just kind of randomly plan, like, our workouts. Like, maybe at 3 o' clock it'll be stuck over my head that I should go for a walk right now, or I should go to the gym, or, you know, we plan our meals. We plan everything else. And I know people think that sex is that one area that we shouldn't put too much thought or talk into or planning because it takes away the magic. But that magic is a Is available and exists early on in relationships. That's the honeymoon phase. That's the newness. But that's gonna fizzle out.

That.

That is just. That's not sustainable. So all of these things you're asking about, like, how do we communicate about it and how do we not perform and how do we be in our bodies? Like, this all takes some talking and some time and some thinking about our sex life. Not as just this, like, hope it. Close your eyes and hope for the best. Right?

Yeah.

So these are all just such good like, like. But we don't know. Most of us don't have a lot of experience with it. So even us talking about is like very new. For like, what we're saying here is not the norm is what I'm saying. No one's like, right, wrong. Right now all your friends are having these conversations. Everyone else knows exactly what foreplay looks like. They don't. This is still. Even though we've been doing this for 20 years, you know that there's some stuff we have to you at YouTube for 20 years. There's a lot that we just have to keep learning and reminding ourselves. And we're always. We're never done learning. But in the area of sex, for so long it was very taboo and very shameful and it still is for many people. But I'm saying like, what we know now and about, you know, so much more science and research. But behind also women's sexuality and men's. This is. These are the areas that are just. We have the data. We just need to know ourselves and know that it's okay. We are completely normal as we are. Everything's acceptable. Just really figure out our own owner's manual. What we actually require to be aroused, turned on, connected, and feel safe. And then we have those conversations with partner. We look for partners that can accept us as we are.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

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I also think like in long term partnership, well, we tend to think of sex as just like this carnal desire that should overcome us and is of just the body. When really I think it's using our brains too. In other words, like if we're in a story or we're just sort of looking at our partner, like if we're kissing our partner.

We can do something in our brains to convince our nervous system that maybe this is the last time or the first time we're ever going to kiss this person. Like the difference between kissing your long term partner on just a regular day and then kissing them with the thought of what if this was the last kiss I ever shared with this person? And how just changing your thinking around it can create desire. And we get, you know, we can so easily take each other for granted. It's the law of familiarity. And so I think, you know, I like to kind of apply mindfulness to the whole relationship thing and like having that, that, that thought, you know, or, or like even thinking about, oh, remember the first time, you know, that reminiscing about the first time that you met, you know, or the first things. Like those are the things that we actually have to be willing to recruit within ourselves and in our minds to make desire stronger.

I think so, absolutely. I love everything that you're saying here because it's, it is so true that, that we.

First talked about it. My, it is all about mindfulness and the presence of it. Because if we can, most of what's keeping us and especially in long term relationships is that, is that we are so in our heads, right? We are worrying about things, we're having sex, we're like, I'm not feeling it, I'm not turned on. We're in the future, right? We're worrying about the future. We're in the past. And when you can bring yourself to the present moment, anytime you're having sex, you realize that none of that everything else, it can exist, right? You can't exist in fear or you know, worry or anxiety. And then you really can focus on the thoughts you're having. And I love that reframe of like what if it's last time I kissed him or I really love this, this person is like, you know, just being able to be like what am I feeling, tasting, smelling, hearing. I always bring in the senses too. Is another way to invoke mindfulness is That a big question I get asked, one of the top ones is how do I, how do I get in the mood? But also how do I not disassociate during sex? How do I not leave the room? How do I not. All these things, the worry and it's like if you can just say, like, okay, in this moment, like when you find yourself going to another place, like, what am I, what am I seeing? Like I'm looking in my partner's beautiful eyes. What am I feeling? Like my hands on my partner's, you know, body. What am I, you know, smelling? And I always like this like vanilla candle when I have sex, I'm smelling the candle. So then I know what am I hearing? My playlist. Like I'm, I'm able to surround myself. Because when you do that, and you might have to do it a few times, then you are just there with your person in front of them in that moment and then you can come back to the connection. And that's why breath is also great. I love, I mean I do this with my, with my partner. I'd be like, we're going, can we just stop and breathe? Really? Like. And people be like, I could never breathe. My partner. Well, it fucking works.

Oh, and you breathe together and try to breathe together. Yes.

I love breathing together. It completely resets. Talk about like our nervous systems that are more aligned, we're calming, we regulate each other. Just then that's tantra. Like that's when people are like, oh, tantra sex. I should go have like 10 hour orgasms and do all these things. That's part of it. But the really basic tantra is looking to each other's eyes and regulating your breathing and breathing together. I mean that's just such a connection. And then you like kind of sink into, into a rhythm where then start from there again. You know, start the arousal from there, start the connection from that place. Do it every time. Try that. Like that's just a way to kind of know that you're both. Because if your person's coming on strong or you're coming on strong and they're not there yet, it's really hard to regulate. But just to say like, just warm up. It's like you're stretching before exercise. You know, it's like the warmup.

I can't even tell you how many times I've been in a situation, you know, with even my ex husband and just partners were like, they're feeling so passionate and coming on so strong and I'm just like, again, I'm just not there. And I just need, you know, like, need so much more. But I just. I don't know. I never. I never stopped it. I never.

That's it. Because we feel guilty.

Yeah, I feel guilty. Or feel like it's not. I felt like it wasn't the right thing to do. I. Sometimes I felt like maybe something's wrong with me, you know, that I'm not feeling this right now, or, you know, is it that I don't love this person? I mean, you get. You can get into a real headshot, Jillian.

That's it. That you just. I love that you just brought that you just described the exact conditioning to go back to your first conversation, our first message about performance. It's like, we don't think that we deserve. Like, we all think that something's wrong with us. I should be just as turned on when and how my partner is, and to the degree in which they're turned on, I should be always ready to go. If I'm a good partner, I should always be having orgasms. I should always be like. And then if I don't and if I stop this, I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'm not normal, I'm defective, I'm broken. And it's just like. That's just the messaging we get. And it could be just not. It's just not true.

And I. Yeah, it's not true and it's not accurate. It's so sad. I think about all the people and even, you know, who are just having sex that they don't really love. I'm not saying, like, they're having sex and it's like a horrible experience or a traumatic experience, but they're having sex and they're like, I wish this was different right now. Like, I don't like this position. I. This isn't turning me on. And so many people are doing that and they're not speaking up and it's so. Oh, God, I'm getting tense just talking about feeling.

I know that feeling, too. I did it for so many years. It was like, honestly, it wasn't until, like my early 30s when I was like, I'm so tired. I've been having sex since I was, what, 17? And it really was this light bulb moment where I was like, okay, so I've had a lot of sex, a lot of partners I wasn't into. I was like dating two year serial monogamous for a while. And I was like, but it's always the same. It's really fun. In the beginning and exciting. And then I found myself like, I'm with someone. They're pounding away at me like a jackhammer. I am. I am so bored. I'm waiting for it to be over. This is like, sometimes it's painful because I didn't know about the power of lube. Losing a lube every time you have sex. And I'm just like. I'm like, there's no other area of my life where I don't ask for what I want. Assert my power. If I'm thirsty, I feel so thirsty. If I don't like the food, I'd send back the food. But why is sex the one area where I feel jailed? I feel trapped. I'm like, I can't speak up. I'm like, this doesn't feel right. And that's where I started my podcast in 2005, talking to people about their sex lives. That was not the sexuality.

Is that how it all began?

That's how it all began.

Wow.

I was like literally living in San Francisco. I was not. I went back to grad school, got my doctorate and all that a few years in. But at first I was just like, what is good sex to you? How do you. How have you having it in a long term relationship? How don't you have it? Do you masturbate? Like, what? And I couldn't find any information. I mean, there really wasn't. People weren't. Yeah. 20 years ago, there was still very much this performative model and this very much like. And even if I go back and listen, like, I think people still didn't really know, right? So I was like, well, there's got to be more information about this because I am never. And I made that commitment. I said, I never. I'm not going to go into a relationship. And I stopped dating for a while. I stopped having sex for a while. I was like, I'm not. I don't want to be that again. Like, you know when you get to a point in your life where you keep doing something so many times you're like, I'm just freaking done. Like, I done. I can't even stand myself right now. Like, I can't live another day doing this destructive thing or this thing.

That's usually when people change, right?

That. That's when they see you, right? They come to you. You're like, I'm at my rock bottom. So I guess I hit my sexual rock bottom. And I was like, this just isn't. And then once you start doing the work, you're Like, I can't actually not. I can't go backwards. I can't. So. But it's been. It's not like I immediately was. But then I had to undo all the things that were harmful, all the people pleasing with sex, all the, like, faking it till you make it and then really learning that, oh, my arousal looks like this. I need a lot of foreplay. I probably won't have an orgasm this way, but I know I have it this way. And so this is how I'm going to orgasm, then letting my partners know this is how I orgasm. And this position doesn't feel good to me. It only does if we have lube or it only does if I have a pillow or like. But again, that's just from. And it's different with every partner too. But if you're in a long term relationship, how great to say, can we just agree that we are. Today's a clean slate. We've been together for 10 years and we probably haven't had a conversation like this before, but maybe we can, you know, And I have a lot of tools too. In my book and in my podcast, I talk about how to, like, create your own sexual history. So many tools. Yeah, it's great, dude, I got 20 years of tools. But it's like, what do we love? Like, what's the three most memorable times you've had sex? Let's write each, write it down and switch the list. What? Okay, what was happening there? Like, we already have a lot of information, but if we just kind of look at it, we can look at what partnered looked good, but looked, was, was felt great to us, what didn't work. And then you troubleshoot it like everything else, but make it, like, fun because now you get to discover, like, through this work I've discovered, and I know a lot of people I work with, that we discover new erogenous zones, new places that feel good, that, like, I love a massage, even for five minutes, it's going to change my entire state. And I might be ready for sex in five minutes if you massage me or if we go away somewhere even to get out of the same bedroom, doing the same things over and over again. So, like, there's a lot of different ways to, to hack this, but we just aren't given the tools. So this, the, the, the pursuit of personal pleasure is a serious mission because pleasure is our birthright. And the more ways we find to cultivate pleasure in our life, whether it's in the bedroom or everywhere else, we're going to have more of it. Pleasure begets pleasure. And the more we feel good in our bodies just eating the foods we like, spending time with people we like, dealing with our own traumas. So it's not holding us back. We're going to be much more open to receiving it too. And yeah, it's really hard to do it. We still have our own blocks up.

Yes.

Around it.

Oh, God. So true.

This episode is brought to you by Indeed. If you need to hire, you need. Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors. So ditch the busy work. Use Indeed for scheduling, screening, and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. It's absolutely genius. And it doesn't just help you hire faster. 93% of employers agree Indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other job sites, according to a recent Indeed survey. And it just. One of the things that I really love about it is just makes hiring all in one place so easy. So if you are someone who runs your own business, have your own business, and you need to hire honestly, you really, truly do need Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at indeed.comjol just go to indeed.comjol right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comJOL terms and conditions apply. Need to hire. You really need Indeed. Oh, there's so many different, like, jumping points. Yeah, I, I guess I think, you know, just based on all the questions that I get, I think it might be a good idea to talk a little bit about STDs, like herpes, for example, and like how to navigate that. Because I get a lot of, a lot of questions. A lot of people who write into me saying, you know, I was just diagnosed with this and I feel like my life is over, my sex life is over. How am I going to move on? And, yeah, and I, you know, I, you know, I try to normalize it for them and just how common it is and just to talk about it. And yes, you know, there might be people who, who reject you because of it, but there's still life after it. I'm just wondering if there, if that's something. Yeah, there's a lot you want to add to that.

Yeah, no, really, that's it. That your life is not over. It's really, really common to have an STD or sti. I mean, really large percentage. I think it's like, I don't want to say this wrong. I think one in five, I think two and five have herpes.

Is STI. The.

The more STI.

Politically correct.

STI.

STI.

STI is not STDs. STI. Yeah, STI. Any STI. Okay, so, yeah, it's not STDs anymore, it's STI.

But thanks for the education.

Yeah, no, but I think it's just. It's really important to get tested. It's really important to know if you do have herpes, though that is one where you can take a daily suppressant. And if you take this daily suppressant, the chances of being transmissible are way, way less than being with someone who doesn't know they have herpes and you're not using protection, and you could get it that way. So, in fact, I think that the people who can actually have the conversations about sexual health with a partner before they have sex, whether it's, I've been tested recently or I'm, I have herpes and I'm taking a daily suppressant are. Are. Are. Are much more. I value those partners or I feel like those are partners that you want to go towards because they're people who are actually care about you and your sexual health and they're being honest and they want to have the conversation about it. So they're valuing their health and they're valuing your health.

So most people aren't having the conversations about testing and sti. So almost in a way, I'm going, this says a lot about this person's character. This says that this is somebody that has morals, and they're like, oh. That they actually have, like, some depth around their consequences. And so I just feel that that's a partner that I value rather than someone who's like, I don't need to get tested or I'm not going to use a condom.

Oh, yeah.

So I just feel like the more. And again, the more people have these conversations, the more it will become normalized. So I want people to know, your relationship, your life, is not over. Be really honest with people. Get as educated as you can about what the STI is and how to treat it and what the protocol is. And then when you go to someone, you say, I want you to know I got herpes. I've had it for six years. I've been on a daily suppressant. I have not had a breakout or when I get breakouts, I know, and I don't have sex. And this is how I've managed it for the last four years. It's like, okay, this person knows Their stuff I'm going to be, yeah, I respect that person. But it's that silence around and the shame again, Jillian. At the end of the day, so much of the reason what's keeping us all from pleasure mostly is the is. Is that I call them the pleasure thief. Stress, trauma and shame. And though if we can learn to manage those things, I don't think that we ever get completely get rid of all the shame and the trauma. We manage it. If we are just mindful of when they pop up, then we can look at oh, it's the shame that's keeping me from saying this or from doing this or this trauma. And, and the more we can just learn to manage, work with those symptoms, I suppose then we can lean more into having better sex, more pleasure.

Oh, it's so true. And the stress, I mean I talk about that a lot too. I mean it is how we are reacting to our lives on a consistent basis will determine the quality of our romantic relations relationship.

Exactly. How do we manage our stress and anxiety if we are in a constantly in a state of stress when our cortisol is spiked? We, we.

Impossible.

Impossible. It's impossible. And most of us. And then we numb out and then we get drink too much or we do something and then we try to muddle our way through it. But manage your, manage your own, manage your stress and anxiety first. Right. It's leading into every area of your life. Yeah.

What about different sex drives? And, and yeah, how, how did people manage different sex drives? And then I guess the second part of the question is different sex styles. Like, you know, what if someone is like, I like, you know, there to be candles and I like music to be playing and I like to slowly get into the mood. Another person is like just give it to me on the kitchen table. Yeah. And that's how I like to do it. And then these people, they find each other, they get together, they're. They're so compatible in so many ways, but they can't seem to find that sexual compatibility.

That's. Yeah. I mean the first thing is to first talk about desire styles or desire discrepancy. That's the first thing mismatched is that just I want to normalize that. In every relationship you're likely going to be mismatched. And I think that would make people feel a lot better knowing that in every relationship there is a high desire partner and a low desire partner. And the lower desire partner has the power because they're the gatekeepers to the sex happening always.

Yeah.

The Ones deciding. And that's just who's going to match up. It's very rare that two high desires and two low desires to get together. So let me just let everyone know that that is, that is just evening the playing field there. You're all okay. And then learning how to. Again, it's all about communication. I mean, my, my mission is for couples to talk about sexual. Like they're talking about the weather, like they're talking about for dinner. Like, so what do you think this week? What's it looking like? Do you think we could. Maybe it could be a good night.

For us, you know.

Schedule it.

But. But I think it's more being intentional but scheduling sex. But it's also being intentional about sex. Like, let's just be intentional that our sex life is something that we're really going to prioritize in the relationship. We're not just going to see what it all happens when in the cards, you know, when the stars align and it all happens. We're actually going to be intentional lovers to each other and we're going to figure out what works for us. And that would say, like, I know that my regular desire is probably maybe once a week and you want it seven days a week. So we clearly, that's not gonna work like that. I can't do it seven days a week. And then you could start thinking about. And then you get into what's the style that works for you. So let's say you're someone who wants to have it on the kitchen table every night. But I just want some, you know, maybe some mutual masturbation. Like I love laying by my partner. We'll both get off and meet. Like, I think it's redefining sex. So sex the way we define it right now, most people think of sex as penetration, but for the majority of people with a vulva, vagina, that's not actually the best sex we're going to have. We're not going to have orgasms that way. We're not going to have the most pleasure. And that's because so much of sex has been designed through religion and procreation. But if you decenter on penetration, then there's a lot of sex that I think a lot of women would be likely to have if it was more like oral sex or using your vibrator or fingers dirty top, fingers, hands, mouth. That's so more women are gonna have an orgasm with a finger, a mouth or a toy. And so if we just know that, then maybe that's an, you know, Part of our sex. So really we were talking about styles, we're talking about desire. Like I might be more likely to use my toy a few days a week. That actually penetration for some. For maybe. I'm just saying like, or I might want, you know. So it's really just getting into what kind of things work for you. If I want more of a romance romance like I hope that my partner is cool with candles in the kitchen if they want to throw me down in the kitchen. There's also ways to like to work together with your desires and what you both, what both of your turn ons are. And so I don't think that it's a deal breaker if your partner's really into something that you're not. As long as you figure out what you're into too. Because then you could figure out a way it's created. Like this is such a beautiful way to create. Co. Create a sex life that's meaningful is if you both are like, this is what I like. These are the ingredients that are important to me. This is important to me. Let's and let's, let's kind of create a beautiful sex life together that works for us.

So I love that. And I think there's so many women walking around listening to this episode right now saying, oh my God, there's nothing wrong with me. It's true. I, I don't like, penetration is like the hardest way for me to get off. And I think there's. So the men who are listening to this who have sex with women are like, oh my God.

So they are, they don't, they don't.

They're like, it's not, I'm not getting her off necessarily by, you know, penetrating her. I've got to do, I got to do something else. This is, I have to be this groundbreaking for a lot of people right now.

Yeah, no, it really is. I mean this is a, this is, this is the requirement. Only 20% of women have an orgasm from anything to do with a penis. And let me just say this for the guys listening, this has nothing to do with your penis. You're not a bad lover. You just haven't had the right information. Because sex education is abysmal. We don't teach it in schools. We're learning through porn. And it looks like it's working for everyone on camera. But the actual truth and the data and the science and what I love is that we're actually studying women's sexual desire right now. We're looking at the clitoris and even When I was in the process of writing my book, we thought it would had 8,000 nerve endings for all these years. It's only been on the map since, since 1997. But that's just a side note. We found out it has 12,000 nerve endings. You're like, okay, so like we are learning so much. And so all those nerve endings in the clitoris, it's also internal, can be stimulated and played with and touched and nipples too. Our nipples are highly orgasm, but usually we stopped touching the nipples after the second date when we started penetrating. So it's more like, it's more like actually sex can be way better than we've already had. Like, you think penetration is great? Try like giving your partner incredible pleasure just from your fingers and having, watching her ride in ecstasy and having the kind of desire that you thought she might have been having with the penetration. But now you can give it to her in other ways. And guys have so many erogen stones too, all over their bodies that feel good, but they are just kind of limited to their, to the penetration because that is a sure thing for guys. Most guys, it's going to feel great. And we're not taking that off the table for you. In fact, I think a lot of women would be more likely to penetrate if we already got our needs met in other ways. So this is just like an education train, right? We're all just sort of learning, learning about it now. It's really just not that we just don't know, right? But totally our bodies are these incredible. We are all covered in nerve endings that feel so great when stimulated with, with, with, with a vibration or with touch or with some wetness and sensuality. It's like sensuality is, is that is really the key to it and getting curious about what feels good. And that's when couples will have so much more to play with when they realize that like our bodies are just this amazing place that we just haven't even started to examine yet. So let's have some fun figuring out what that looks like for our next chapter. Or if you're just dating someone new. Let's figure it out together.

Yeah, it's so fun. It can be really fun. Do you think sex is the first thing to go in a relationship when a couple is struggling emotionally with each other?

Sometimes I would say that sex is one of the first things that goes. Kissing actually is the first thing that goes in like all long term relationships it seems, but we just have kissing and sometimes when we do kiss again, we're like oh yeah, I really liked kissing. But yeah, I think that sex is a. When the sex goes in a relationship, it's usually a symptom of resentments that have built up over time, not communicating our needs, hormones, anger. There's a lot anger, anger, repressed anger, not being able to express what we want. Having kids. I mean, can we just normalize the fact that when you have a child, your sex life is forever going to be changed, at least for 15 years to 18 years. Or, you know, the kids at home. It's like we can never say when they're an infant. Like women are told when they have a baby that they can go from the hospital and they can have sex again in six weeks. For the majority of women, that is not the case. They are definitely the sex won't look like it did before. And side note, to be honest, it probably wasn't that great before anyway, if I know most women, because it can always get better. I think every woman right now and man is at a point in their life, if they're listening to this, that this could be the first day of the rest of your sex life. Just even listening to this episode right now because you can always make it. You can always be like, I'm actually going to take it seriously now. I'm actually just like you do with your mental health. Like you do. I would actually learn about my sexuality. So I do think that sex goes because we don't. It's like once sex we put on the back burner, we'll get back to it. It's really hard to get back to because again, yeah, resentments, anger, maybe there's some health issues. Maybe our body never bounced back after we had a child and now it feels different and we have less desire or less sensations. And so that's why I talk about sexual intelligence. I talk about these five pillars of sexual intelligence in my book. And it was a way to kind of get people to realize that sex isn't just about the act. So there's five pillars. It's, it's, yes, it's the, it's community communicating about sex, but also your health. Like if you are on a certain medication, that could be why your sex drive is down too, right? Yes. There's the relational. It could be relational and it could be biological, physical, absolutely. Psychological, spiritual. All those things are related to the sex life. And I think we don't know really how to problem solve it or troubleshoot it so that it just becomes this huge problem in the relationship that we don't know how to solve. But we can start unpacking it by really looking at our bodies. What feels good, talking to our partner about it. But to answer your question long. Yes. I think that sex goes in most relationships that are not.

Yeah.

We don't know how to manage our relationally.

Yeah. And I think it also, like you said, it starts with kissing. And I think it's just like. I think people forget that passion and intimacy just starts with touch. And it doesn't actually have to be, like, sexual. It's like people who dance together and touch and are affectionate, hold hands. Like, that goes. That's very, very, I think, really, really important. I think that's just as important as feeling safe. It's like that kind of physical touch.

Yeah, absolutely. And, Jillian, this is what. This is what I was saying earlier is that when we say, like, if you mismatch drives, sometimes we think we're craving sex, and maybe that's the penetration, but we're craving touch, a hug, holding hands, being connected to each other, looking to each other's eyes like that. That kind of intimacy can be what. What we're actually craving. When we think it's the sex, it might just be connection, and that would be a way to get connected. Right. So it's not always just about the sex. So the sex goes. But we really are craving. That's the thing. It's like, we think that was connection. But no, I just wanted to have a conversation with my partner without the phone. I really wanted to leave the house. I really wanted to get away for a night, not talk about the kids or work, and then look, my desire's back. Right. So I think connection can be true. Deep connection can kind of help fuel your. The. The romantic connection.

Again, a match. Or could it be deeper? Like, you know, could those kinks be something that could be rooted in trauma? Or is it like, anything goes. Don't be shameful about anything. This is. This is the tricky thing because people get very judgmental.

It's very tricky. So I think that we don't want to lead with. So I think it's how we approach our kinks in a relationship. And so, I mean, if you're somebody who has a. A true kink, like, I actually. Or like, if somebody's like, I require. I must be tied up every time we have sex and spanked and be wearing a diaper, let's just say, yeah, extreme kink. That's what I would need.

And we'll do extreme kink.

Yeah, we'll do extre. Kink Like, I need these things every single time.

And it's also every single time that makes it very extreme. But that's.

That's almost more of a fetish. There's a difference between fantasy and fetish. A fetish is requirement. And. And a. And you're not. You were saying kink. So I just want people to know, like a kink is anything really. Well, let's just break this down. Missionary sex. Kink is defined as anything that's not missionary sex. So a kink could be oral sex.

Okay.

Kink could be spanking. Right. But then when people think about it, but also people always assume bdsm, you gotta be tied up, you gotta be wear latex every time. So there's a. It's a spectrum, right. Just having an honest conversation with your partner about what your kinks are, but then also explain to them why it's your kink, like how it makes you feel and what you think it could do for them too. So often if we're just throwing down, I have this requirement during sex, you need to blindfold me and spank me, and this is what you need to do. But our partner's like, well, what, what. What's in it for me? So if you have a conversation about, I think it's really why you think it's a turn on, why it's hot for you, what you think your partner will get from it, how it'll make you feel, then these conversations for partners coming together on their kinks, I think I know would be a lot more successful for both of them because I just think we don't often provide enough information and we don't know why we like something. But again, that's why it all comes back to our own internal work, understanding ourselves better so we can describe it to explain it to a partner. And when we talk about, you know, how thing. How things make us feel and how we think it would feel for them, they're more likely to come on board to want to satisfy our needs. Right?

Absolutely. So well said. Thank you for that. So tell, tell. Tell us about your book, because I want everyone to run and get your book.

Well, my book is called smart sex, how to boost your sex IQ and own your pleasure. And it came out last year and it's all about my. I realized that after so long doing this, I have so much. I was writing, like tips and tricks, and people always, you know, have so many questions for me, and they always want a quick fix when it comes to sex. And when I was writing, I Was like, you know what? Sex is not a quick fix. And in fact, here's how you can be your own best sex expert and your own best sex. I want everyone, empower everyone to be their own sex educator, their sex expert. So I came up with these, the five pillars of sexual intelligence. And so anytime you're having a challenge, I don't know why I. I can't get turned on, or I'm not as wet as I used to be, or I don't know how to get this need met. You can kind of run through these five stages and see like, well, what one of these areas can I troubleshoot? And like real and real quickly. It's embodiment. Am I in my body? So if I'm in my body during sex, or was I leaving the room and disassociating, that might be why I'm having, you know, trouble connecting. And the second one is our health. And that's, you know, do we have traumas, are we taking medications, are we moving our bodies, eating good food? All that's going to impact self acceptance. Do I accept myself where I'm at today? Um, do I. How well, you know, do I. That's really the confidence piece. How am I okay with myself naked today? Do I accept my experience till today and then self knowledge? Do I know what turns me on? Do I know my sexual history? And then the last one is collaboration, and that's how well we communicate with our partners and communicate with ourselves about sex. And so the book is all about that and lots of all the best tips and tricks for everything you'd ever want to have better sex.

So basically, everyone needs to own your book.

Everyone needs to own it. Yes. People love the book and they can find it anywhere. Anywhere. You can find it anywhere? Yes, on my website and also on my site, sexwithemily.com I have so many. I actually have a store that I launched last year too, with all of my favorite products and toys that I've been using for 20 years. So they're all like vetted by me and wonderful. A lot of stuff we're announcing, so sign up for our mailing list. People love our, our mailing list. People always say that I give really good email and they give me a good email.

I love that. I love that. Well, we'll, we'll put all those, all those links in the show notes before, right after this.

Thank you so much for sharing your incredible wisdom and passion with me and with the audience today. I learned a lot. This was even a therapeutic conversation for me. And I think it's going to be, like, incredible for people listening. So thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, Jillian. Thank you for opening up the space to talk about it and for all the incredible work you do. I love watching, listening to you.

Oh, the feeling is mutual.

Awesome. Thank you. Have a good day. Appreciate you.

Jillian. On Love is a Q code production executive produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson. Produced by Shin Yin in who editing and music by Will Tendi.