Virtually Connected with Damona Hoffman

Okay. So is there any like emoji 101? Because that's another area where I'm just like, I don't know about emojis. Really?

It's funny. Tinder actually did a study on like their most frequently used emojis, but I'm a big fan of the winky face. Like if you're saying something and kidding and you're kidding about it, or you're trying to say that you think it's funny, like a winky face emoji or a blushing emoji, you have to Really be careful with the heart eyes emoji. I can't believe we're having a conversation in depth about emojis, but they all have different meanings.

They do. Yes, they do. And sometimes I don't know, I'm like, what does that emoji mean? I don't know. I feel like—

Just don't send an eggplant like before the first video date. I mean, unless you want to just really cut to the chase.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily Morse, and on today's show I'm joined by certified dating coach and host of the Dates and Mates podcast, Damona Hoffman, to talk about dating in this new time we find ourselves in and how to do it right for all times. Topics include: when it comes to dating online for the first time, where do you start? Okay, you met someone you like. How do you keep a virtual relationship going? And if you're already in a relationship, how are you able to keep dating when you can't actually go out on dates? And ways to go deeper with your conversations beyond the typical small talk, and we get a little bit into flirting. All this and more. Thanks for listening.

Look into his eyes.

They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

Hey Emily, you got a boyfriend? My man E here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my, do women know about shrinkage?

Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks.

Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me?

Oh my God, it feels so good.

Being bad feels pretty good. You know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And all social media, we are Sex with Emily. Intentions with Emily. For each show, I start off by setting an intention for the show, and I encourage you to do the same. And what I mean is, think about what you want to get out of listening to this episode. Like, how could it help you? It could be, I've been dating online since before the quarantine, I need some pointers, or I have a new relationship, but how do I keep things going virtually? What do I do, Emily? Help me. Well, my intention is to give you tools to date from a distance, but wherever we're dating, how do you nurture these relationships and keep them going? Hope you enjoyed today's show. I really enjoyed interviewing Damona Hoffman. She's a dating expert of the new generation. She actually met her husband dating online. She knows what she's doing. She's got courses, she's got a successful podcast. You can find her at damonahoffman.com and Damona Hoffman on all social social media. I hope you guys enjoy this interview. So excited to welcome my guest today. Demona Hoffman is a certified dating coach and host of the Dates and Mates podcast. We are doing a swap today. I did her podcast, she's doing my podcast, and I am so excited to have you here because we need a lot of dating help. I mean, we always do, but now more than ever. I love that you're here too as an expert in this field.

Thank you for having me. People need love more than ever right now, just like you said. So we'll get down to it.

A lot of people are, are dating right now in the time that we're dealing with the coronavirus and we're quarantined and all these things. And then there's some people who are, it's their first time on the apps. I hear the apps have been flooded by newbies because before they didn't have time or they didn't think it was for them. So what do you think about that? If you're just starting to date, what's happening right now? Like, how do you know which app to do? Where to go, then we've got to get into video dating. Oh yeah. Okay.

Video dating comes later. First, we, we have to just get to the app. And I do see that there has been a huge increase in new users and also in new communication. Like, not only are people flooding the apps, but they're chatting a lot, they're swiping a lot because we're bored, Emily. We're bored and we need affection. We need that connection. And that whether we're quarantined or not, that need is never going to go away. But now, like you said, there are a lot of new people that don't know how each app functions or how to move through the phases of communication to actually get on the date. And I just have to say, just like off the bat, we cannot be going on face-to-face dates. I'm hearing this, Emily, and I'm not cool with this.

People are going face-to-face right now?

Stay home. Yes. If your state is saying stay home, even if you've been on like 2, cute little video dates with somebody. This is not the time to start running over to their house and playing Romeo and Juliet.

Please do not. Please do not do that. But what I love about this time, and my hunch is that I love things are slowing down a little bit and then we got to get to know somebody. We got to put a pause in it. Let's say they've decided they're not going to go on a date, but what— they're not going to actually meet in person. But what do they do now with the apps? I don't know. Do we get messaging? What's a great way to message right now? Because if you're doing it, I'm assuming you're doing all the like, hey, you're not really doing the things that you're supposed to be doing.

Hey, you up?

Yeah.

Yeah, they're up. They're home. Well, I want to just like first just slow down like the process of dating. And I agree with you, Emily, that this is going to ultimately, ultimately be very good for dating and for online dating. I've been coaching singles on online dating for 15 years.

Wow.

So like way back, way back, old school. When I, when I started online dating, I had to actually go to Kinko's, not even FedEx Kinko's, Kinko's. I hear if you scan a photo, so the barrier for entry was high and everyone who was there wanted to really be there and make a connection. Now it's so easy to begin a profile. You can just pick a couple of pictures, integrate it with your Facebook or Instagram and you're online.

Okay.

And so one thing I've been trying to get people to do is slow down, like you were saying, and really take the time to do it mindfully. And it wasn't happening with me just saying it on the Dates of AIDS podcast, but now we are being forced to slow down. But one thing that I have people do before they even start thinking about dating is to get really clear on their mindset. What are they looking for? And what you want right now might not be what you wanted a month ago. But if you have clarity, then you can stop yourself from just time wasting. Because even in quarantine times, you can be on these apps for a while and have nothing to show for it a month or two from now.

Okay. So getting clear on mindset. Give me an example of that because I always tell people that too, like get clear on what you need in a partner. But what if you've never even done that? You're like, I just want somebody like, that's also a slowing down process. Do you have good tools for that or things for people to think about?

Well, that's an answer to the question. I just want somebody, like I just want a connection. I'm not necessarily looking to get married or to have a baby in the next year or whatever it is. I just want to make a connection. That's a goal. But a lot of times when I ask people, well, what do you want? They're like, well, I don't know. Well, what's— what do you like? What, what do you want in a relationship? Well, I'll know it when I see it. No, you won't. Because if you haven't seen it yet, you're probably not going to see it unless you get some clarity on that first. And then that, once we have the mindset clarity, that's what helps me to build the profile off of that. Because if you just put up, like, I did a profile polish for Shondaland this fall, and the woman they sent me, she was in her 20s, she was really attractive, and I could look at her profile and right away I was like, okay, let me guess, your problem is you get tons of messages but you're not really, you're not going out on a lot of dates. You're not happy with the dates when you do. And she was like, like, how did you know that? How'd you know that just from looking at my profile? And it's like, because you have a generic profile, you have really pretty pictures, you have your bikini shot, you have all the like classic pictures, bikini, full body, and, and like your party shot with your girlfriends and you look like a lot of fun, but I don't really know anything about you. So I teach people how to tell their story. Through their profile and let that be the thing that attracts their best partner.

That's so good. Cause essentially it is marketing and we're the worst at marketing ourselves. It's real. I think we can be unless we learn the skills. So you teach people the best practices essentially, cause it's not that there's no one out there or the dating apps suck or it's just a hookup place. It's about presenting who you are, what you want, but how would we know? How do we, we wouldn't know unless we talked to you.

Well, you, you can figure this out if you take the time before you create the profile. Most profiles are created either you're like talking with your girlfriend and you're like, we need to meet somebody, let's create profiles. Or, you know, your dream.

That's how mine was created. Exactly. My friend took my phone. So then what is the best practice? I mean, is that something, what is the best practices then? If you like, what are, what are the mistakes we're seeing so we can correct them?

Well, first, the first mistake is not having the right profile. Then the second mistake is moving into the chat that never goes anywhere. Okay.

Let's talk about that.

Wants to be just a pen pal with somebody. That's really boring. Well, some people do like there and there are, there are cheaters. Like I don't deny that there are people that are using dating apps for different, different resources. Most of my listeners and most of my clients want at least a, sexual relationship, if not a serious relationship and something long-term. So getting that clarity and putting that out there and then behaving in that way will help you get what you want. So if you want a serious relationship, why, why you have 25 pen pals that you're swiping back and forth between? Try to focus. Like, you have to have enough numbers to be able to find a good match, but try to actually focus on the person in front of you. Like, we do have a little bit of this paradox of choice of so many options that we get overwhelmed. And then I hear the complaints from people that they're like, well, no one takes anybody seriously anymore. And I keep getting ghosted. And there's no one— all the things you were saying, like, no one's good online. And yet you're doing the same thing.

How the hell then, Damona Hoffman, do we have more fruitful convert chats on an app? How do we get it going so we feel actually connected with somebody that we would like to meet and maybe take to the next level, which right now the next level is virtual dating or video chat. What's the conversation like?

The chat is really important. And a while ago I did, I did a training on the texting trap, I call it. Like people would get stuck in this phase. And not move offline and move on to the real, real date. And of course now we're talking about the real date is the video date, but these are skills. Like what I do is help people develop skills. I want to, I'm not a matchmaker. I want to teach you how to fish so that you can repeat it and do it anytime for yourself.

Teach, teach me.

Okay.

So when I haven't done the apps in so long because I don't enjoy texting.

Yes. And you shouldn't actually because texting, in the early phase of the relationship is really for information and not conversation. And that's one of the biggest, the next biggest mistake that people make. They think that you can filter and get to know someone over text and you really can't. People have time to think of their witty, quippy responses. And then when they're face to face and they see your beautiful face, Emily, then they're all intimidated and they don't know what to say. You're like, why is this guy not as clever as he seemed when he was in chat? So we want to keep that period short and sweet and then move into now the video date.

It's Toyota Truck Month. Time to get a truck that works as hard as you do. Tacoma, Tundra, built for the worksite, ready for the trail, and packed with tech that makes every drive smarter. Available with 360-degree panoramic cameras for perfect visibility in tight spots. Powered tailgate for easy loading. And a high-tech connected screen to keep you on the grid no matter where you are. All backed by the brand known for its legendary reliability. The rugged Toyota Tacoma and the full-size Tundra are built to handle it all. And right now, your local Toyota dealer has great financing and lease options available to qualified customers. Meaning there's no better time to test drive the Toyota truck you need. Find a great Toyota Truck Month deal today when you visit buyatoyota.com. That's buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.

TaxAct can think of a million things more fun than filing taxes.

TaxAct is going to name some now. Sitting in traffic, folding a fitted bedsheet, listening to your coworker talk about his fantasy team, Digging a hole. Digging an even larger hole next to that original hole. Unfortunately, TaxAct's filing software can't make taxes fun, but TaxAct can help you get them done. TaxAct.

Let's get them over with as quickly as possible.

Okay, I love everything you're saying. So you're saying short and sweet, and I agree with you because I present much better, like, talk to me, you're gonna love me. But my texting is like Hi, let's talk. Here's my number. Cause I don't want to do it. And then I'm like a terrible texter. And even with guys I'm dating, like, I'm like, I'm just warning you in advance. I don't love texting. So the first, so right now what the text might be is, hey, you want to like, let's move this to video or is there anything else that is just, we're saying, but basically we're exchanging information early on in the text.

So you need, yeah, you need to have some rapport with them. Yeah. What I like to do is to, jump right into the meat of the conversation and pretend like you already know them.

Okay.

Another mistake that people make is like they text sometimes like they're writing an email, like they give the backstory period. It's like it takes up half of the, half of the screen and nobody wants to—

I just got anxious. No one wants that.

So short burst communication. Got it. I'm also a big fan of emojis and this is, you know, I've been doing this 15 years, so this has evolved for me because I used to be like, that's so childish. But then I realized, So much context was lost in just the words. And so much of our communication is all these other things, your intonation, your body language.

Yes.

The only way to convey that through text is using emojis and other images to also add context to what you've typed.

Okay. So is there any like emoji 101? Because that's another area where I'm just like, I don't know about emojis. Really?

It's funny. Tinder actually did a study on like their most frequently used emojis, but I'm a big fan of the winky face. Like if you're saying something and kidding and you're kidding about it, or you're trying to say that you think it's funny, like a winky face emoji or a blushing emoji. You have to really be careful with the heart eyes emoji. I can't believe we're having a conversation in depth about emojis, but they all have different They do. Different meanings.

Do you have— yes, they do. And sometimes I don't know, I'm like, what does that emoji mean? I don't know. I feel like—

Just don't send an eggplant like—

No.

Before the first video date. I mean, unless you want to just really cut to the chase.

Exactly. But I say no, it's fun to build the tension through the texts.

Yeah. And I love this period. And one thing that I think is great about the fact that we have to space out the interaction is that we never get that magic period back. Like, once you've met and once you've had sex, it becomes the next phase. And I think it's kind of sweet and magical that we can almost turn back to like this courtship phase of really slowing down and getting to connect with one another.

I totally agree with you. And this is the stage that we're always kind of craving to go back to anyway. And I believe that the longer we can extend it and make it last, the more I think it bodes well for the relationship overall if you kind of stayed in this sweet spot. So now we're like, okay, this guy, I was hopefully successful with emojis. He was too. And then we're like, let's video chat. What are your best tips for that right now? It's FaceTime. Does it matter? FaceTime, Zoom, do you have any preference? Or should we just use— I don't know if it matters what you use.

I will say that Bumble has this feature built in, which I, think was really smart of them. They added it last June, I believe. And now it's really, it's really coming in handy because some people are uncomfortable sharing personal information. So, you know, there's always that phase of like, well, let's— should we chat? Like, give me your number, which just feels silly to me. Like, we're just— I don't know about you, Emily. I have so many modes for people to message me. I've got DMs on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. And I'm just like, I don't even Remember, right? And that's why everybody's ghosting because like we can't even remember.

I ghost my mother. I didn't mean to. I was like, mom, I didn't see that you texted me. I'm so busy. I'm sorry. Yeah, exactly. Mom, you didn't tell me. Exactly.

It's terrible. It's great if you are dating a lot. It's great to keep your dating life organized. And sometimes people accuse me of being not a very romantic dating coach, Emily, and I don't really care because I know what I do works. And this isn't something that you naturally do. And so I put a process around this thing that is so overwhelming for people. And if you organize it and you make the dating process less, less overwhelming, then when you actually get to the date, you can feel the magic and the chemistry and all those beautiful things that you want to feel. So if you're keeping all of your communication, and I'm not like endorsing Bumble over another app, I get it.

No, I'm totally, I'm raptured. Okay.

Yeah.

So keep it organized. Yeah. Okay.

Um, the other thing that you have to remember when you're setting up a video chat date, and a lot of people were doing the video dates as a filter. I, for a long time I've said, I think you should do a phone call before you go on the actual date. And especially a lot of my millennial listeners were skipping that. They were just chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, set up the date. Then the date gets canceled the day before, or They realize that the person wasn't at all what they were expecting and now they're stuck on this dinner date. No dinner dates. And thank goodness now with the video chat dates, we can actually have like shorter, shorter, more, you know, more, more energetic dates because the longer a date goes, you have to think of it like a wave. Like the energy is going to the beginning. It's kind of awkward getting to know each other. The energy sort of weird. There will come a time where you hit a rhythm and it peaks. And then the longer— you can only sustain that peak for so long. So the longer it's, it's sort of like sex, Emily Morse, right? Then eventually the energy is going to fall. And that's where a lot of people end up leaving the date at the low point. The things you're going to remember most are the beginning and the, the end of the date. And if you end it feeling like it's stopped in the middle. Like, oh, I'm really enjoying talking to you. Uh, but I have to, I have to run and do something for work, but can we talk again? And even if you are so desperate to talk to this person again, if you leave them wanting more, you have a much better chance that they're going to call again and want to see you one more time.

I love this. They always say like, leave the party when you're having a good time. Like, that's the best thing. Okay. So then you're like, peace out. Like, this was a great video chat. And like, let's come back later. I hear what you're saying. I've been telling my, Everyone, my listeners, I'm like, do a video. I was saying do a FaceTime date first because you keep hearing all these stories. And I haven't dated, like I've been dating some people, I don't do it, but I'm joking about me, although maybe it is time for me to go online. But I do feel like I'm telling everybody you've got to do the video chat because why drive across town? I mean, I've done this too for sure when I was dating a lot. You put all your makeup on, you're getting ready, you get across town, you're like, nope, this was a big waste of my time and I got to sit through dinner. So I agree, no dinner dates. But let's just cut it. Like, why not do a 15-minute interview always, especially now? So how do you take it to video now? Because is there a time limit? Like, I think it's because that's awkward. What if you see them and you're like, there's so many— okay, my first question is, what if you get on the date and you're like, no, the video date, how do you just end it? Is that not fair?

So, and I'll be honest, this part, because the quarantine is so— is still pretty new. I'm still testing this out and figuring this out for my clients. Traditionally, I would say the video chat or the phone pre-date should be, like you said, about 15 minutes, any tops. It's just, it's just the checkout. Like, does this, is this going to work? Okay. Yes, we can move on to the next date. So what I'm having people do now is more like 30-minute video date being the first date. But here's the thing to remember is that when you set up that that checkout date, they are also checking you out. A lot of times we forget that. So people will set it up sort of hastily like, oh, well, should we just, should we just video chat? Especially like if you can just click one button on Bumble and move to the video, they just do it, whatever they're wearing, wherever they are. And the next thing you know, you're on that date and you've heard this before. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression. So you have to remember that they're looking at you and saying like, oh, She doesn't really look like her profile either. So I like to have people set up that first date like it's a date. And I do this even if the next phase is a call.

Yeah.

Okay. Have a plan.

What do we do? Okay. So how do we set up that date?

So we say, do you, do you want to chat or do you want to like, do you want to talk on the phone or do you want to do a video date and set a time for it? So it's not just like, Yeah, call me sometime tonight. Have your, put yourself, set yourself up for success and put yourself in the right mindset. The other thing that I really like, if it's going to be a full video date and not just a checkout, but a full video date is dreadful if you don't know one another and you're trying to connect for the first time over video, you don't have like the physical intimacy. You don't, you can't really look that person in the eye. And you don't know anything about them, so you're sitting there trying to make a connection for the first time, it's very intimidating. Yeah, you can cut the, the, the edge off of it a little bit by, by planning an activity. So what I like to do is have like a sip and— we can have a sip and paint night tomorrow, are you up for that? Or do you want to play trivia with me? So it's something else that's going on, and this is a great tip even even for offline dating, once you're meeting face to face, if you have an activity, there's something that you can refer to. There's something that you can, can go back to if you get to a point where there's a lull in the conversation.

Oh, I love this. There's a plan because otherwise you're like, so where'd you grow up? How's your quarantine going? Like, it's just the same day, like every, every other day.

Yeah.

Yeah. I like this. Now, what is there any like tips just for like, well, I guess just you want everyone knows now like how you got to look good, have a camera, have make, check your angles first and lighting and all that stuff. I think that that's important. You have these virtual dates and then, and then yeah, I feel like what about couples who are, or people who are quarantining apart, let's say, and they have been separated and they're like, okay, I'm bored. I got, I don't like, I feel like I've been hearing from people, they just, they're like, I don't know if this relationship's working. I don't want to talk every day. I've also been saying like, have a game, do something different, go a little bit deeper in your relationship, ask questions, maybe talk about your sex life. Do you have any tips for that? Or have you heard maybe less than that? Fewer chats, like you don't need to talk every day.

Yeah. You have to communicate with your partner. I mean, that's at the core of any great relationship and we're all dealing with a lot right now. So anyone who really cares about you wouldn't fault you if you're just like, I have a lot on my plate. It would be great if we could talk tomorrow. They don't, You know, if you don't express it, then you're going to build up resentment, and that's really not going to be helpful in the relationship. So let them make a plan, let them know what the plan is, but then reiterate that you love talking with them and you're just dealing with a lot with quarantine, family, whatever it is. And I think your idea, Emily Morse, is great, even if you're further into the relationship. Yes, have an activity that you're doing, have something else that you can reference. Like, you know, when I was younger, like, we used to watch TV and we call each other and like just watch the show and then talk about it as we're watching the show. You could do that. There's so many activities that you could do. You could do a lot of like 20 questions. There's even like this 36 questions that lead to love. I had strangers. Yeah, yeah, two strangers ask the question. And I actually did a TV series where they had couples to ask the questions because we thought if it brings strangers closer together, just imagine what would happen if we had people who are already in a relationship.

Did it work? How'd it go with the people?

I have literally liberty to tell you.

No, but, uh, you already did it. You already have.

Yeah, we already did it. It's, it's called A Question of Love actually. It's on like Amazon, Apple, wherever.

Okay. Go check out Timon Hoffman. All right.

But having those intimate conversations, like This is a great time. And also the fact that we're doing it over video, a lot of times people get really intimidated by having those deeper conversations face to face, right? So it could actually be a little easier to do it over video.

Yeah.

I think the other thing that I, I love for people to do in between dates, like if you're newer to dating one another, call back previous times you spent together or memories that you shared or things that you have in common. So like, let's say you were at a concert together a few months ago. If you maybe send them a song and like text the song to them or a GIF of that artist or a joke that you, you have in common from a TV show that you've watched together and having that nostalgia and the connection really can build the intimacy when you're just using digital tools.

I love this. I love the nostalgia element. I love the like, 'cause oh yeah, this is how we— it's like a reminder of our love, our connection, of our intimacy. And especially through text, I love the idea of peppering it in with a song, a picture of something that reminds you of your memory. Like we are surrounded with those things as well. A snapshot of your first text, or things that you remember. Yeah, I love all that. It's like mixing it up.

And anybody can learn to do that. Like my dad's sending gifts now. So if my dad can do it, you guys can do it. Exactly, right?

No, I think that's so important. I mean, no, absolutely, right? I know, same with my mom. Every day, different emojis and stuff. It's very impressive. People, we are very adaptable. We can learn so much. We're gonna take a quick break and we come back more with Damona Hoffman. And thanks everyone for supporting our sponsors. Did you see Love Is Blind, the show on Netflix?

Of course.

Yeah, of course. Right. So, okay. I think there's something to that without seeing somebody and you're actually having a conversation and it's growing and we see that it didn't work for everybody and it worked for some. Now what about this video chat? We're actually seeing them now and we're talking, but we're not touching. So how much do you think that if you're just like in a hot and heavy, you just started doing video chatting a month ago, but you're, I mean, I've heard this from everybody. Do you think that this is a more reliable indicator that a relationship could go than just hearing their voice? Like, do you think this could be real? Like we could feel all this connection and then we meet somebody and it could be more of a game on or could it be like, oh, I didn't realize how you smelled or how you actually felt? What do you think? How, how real is this, this love or lust that we're feeling?

I'm going to give you an answer and then I'm going to, I'm going to follow it up with a question for you. I would say it's yet to be seen, but I think we'll probably have about the same odds as Love Is Blind. I think it can build connection, but ultimately this happens all the time with my clients that once they meet in person and they've moved offline, they've— that person has competed against the fantasy version of them. I mean, this even— I'll be honest, this even happened to me when I met my husband. I met my husband online more than 15 years ago. And I had this idea of who he was in my head based on his photo. And there's so much information. You have to keep in mind when you post a photo, your whole life story is being told. Like What's in the background? What are you wearing? And I just had this idea of him as sort of this roguish, like rugged, I don't know, artist kind of guy. And he is an artist, but he's like nice guy, reliable. And I was doing a dating plan. I made a plan for myself before I met him called Operation Date Nice Guys. I called it Operation DNG for sure. I'm not even And the first thing I thought when I saw him was like, oh, he seems like such a nice guy. And I had to remind myself I was doing Operation Date Nice Guys. And there was this moment of dissonance between the person I thought I was going to meet and who was sitting there in front of me. And sometimes the longer you talk online— this is why when I coach couples who are dating long distance, I say try to do the video date as quickly as possible and then meet in person as soon as you can. Like, I have a client that met someone who— she was in the DC area and he was in South Africa. And she said, I'm going to go to South Africa. And, and they'd been talking for like 6 weeks. And her family was like, you're crazy. Like, you're going to South Africa with this guy that you've never met. And I was like, no, you're doing the right thing because you have to see if it's really real. So this is a really long-winded way of saying, I think we're just going to have to see when we're in person and be open to the fact that it might change. That connection that you thought you had over video, it may be different when you see them face to face and you see, like, you're used to seeing them from the waist up. I don't know. Like, maybe it'll be different.

Exactly. I'm just curious. Yeah, because I've always been, like I said, I've always recommended to people they do the video chat, but now that everyone's doing it, I feel like it's a little bit safer, but I mean, we never know until you get all the elements, all the senses. You can feel someone.

Yes, there's so many elements of attraction. Okay, so now I'm gonna follow it up with my question, because a lot of times people ask me on the Dates and Mates podcast, like, if you've met in person and you have connection and chemistry, but then you move on to sex and the sex isn't good at the beginning, do you think it can evolve?

Great question. I think that if the sex isn't great at the beginning, it can evolve, but pretty much you're gonna know within the first month. I'm gonna tell you that. I don't believe that, oh, he was the worst kisser and I'm gonna— like, I can't go out with him again. I think that maybe he was kissing his ex in a certain way and now he's kissing you and you both didn't know how to kiss together. But I do think that, that it can get better from there, like the first time or the second time. But I think we pretty much have our information within the first few times. I also think though couples who are together for a while can improve upon it. Like if it was great at the beginning and it's changed, I think that you can get— you can even grow beyond that. But I think that sometimes it could just be someone's really nervous and so things just don't operate the way you want them to. But I do think chemistry is something that is this intangible, really delicious thing that You know when you have it, and if you never had it, you're never gonna create it. Does that make sense? Like, if—

yes, I definitely— I, I give—

what do you feel like?

3 dates. I say, okay, 3 dates before you make a determination. So I say all you need to know by the end of the first date is that you're curious enough about the person to spend another hour with them, okay? And I do keep those first dates very short and sweet. And then all you need to know at the end of the second date is that you're still curious. If by the third date you're not feeling anything and you— or they've said something that's offensive to you or that goes against your values, which kind of goes back to what we were talking about at the very beginning about getting clear on mindset and what's like really important to you in your partner. If you know by the third date, then I say you don't have to keep going with it.

Well, no, I, that I agree with. I thought you meant if there's no chemistry, like you've actually already kissed or made out or had sex, can you get that? That's what I thought you meant.

That was my initial question. But like, I just was thinking about where does the chemistry come in? But a lot of times I, I, one of the problems I see is people will have sex for the first time and be like, the sex wasn't good. Or like you said, like they'll kiss and then all of a sudden they're just ready to to walk away because of this feeling like, well, there's, there's a million other people a swipe away, so I don't need to work on that. Even though they had everything else I was looking for, that, that chemistry or that sexual— like, I wasn't sexually satisfied the first time.

Right, exactly.

I—

yes, I think we're saying the same thing. And I do love your idea of the three, that the third date you should know. I think you should know by the third, a third date. For sure. And I think in the past what I've done, and I hear this from other people too, like, I, and I think I feel that women do it more than men, but we, I talked myself into somebody before. I've been like, oh, they could be great. And then like a few months go by and I'm like, you knew that on the third date. So I do think that's a pretty good time, right? Do you find that women do that more so? We were kind of like, oh, but he's good on paper and I can go out with him for a bit longer. Maybe it'll grow. Do you find that? That's probably why you had to set the rule. Yeah.

I, well, I find that, um, men will know right away, like if there isn't a physical attraction on the first date for most guys, I can't get them to even consider a second date. For women, I do feel like you can, you can grow into feeling something for someone, but Yeah, you don't want to give them the benefit of the doubt too much. And that's why it all goes back to the mindset because I find that I've said on my show before, chemistry is a liar. Like if you are feeling all the butterflies and you think you want to marry that person by the second date, you need to go back to that list of what you were looking for in the first place and make sure that that person lines up with— I give my clients 3 must-haves and 1 deal breaker. And a lot of times you're gonna find that that person either has your deal breaker or doesn't have your must-haves, and you're gonna start making excuses because you're feeling this, you're feeling that, or because they have this job, or because it seems like it should work. And that's not really the way to move into a relationship that can build.

God, I love that you have people do— your clients— and you work with men and women, right, on their apps, on their dating, on their relationships. You do all of it. I think that's such a great skill Jill, you must be very, very busy and doing your Dates Evade podcast because I literally want you to get like so many new clients right now from listening to this because I feel like sometimes we just date randomly and to have a plan and to have your non-negotiables, like I need this. I don't want that. It's such a great place. It's right in front of you. It's like on your notes on your phone and you're like, oh, I said I don't want a smoker. Like, no, he's not going to quit smoking or whatever your deal breakers are.

Right. Right. And the thing is, Emily, like, A lot of these adjustments that I talk about, it's so simple. It's almost like, I'm sorry to make it so easy for you guys, but many times people come to me and they're like, I haven't dated in 2 years. I, you know, I don't know what I'm looking for, but I'll know it when I see it. But I want to be married by this time next year. And when I just break it down like this and I like take the emotion out of it, okay, we are all caught up. We are all in our feelings. Okay? So let's just break it down and I'll just tell you the system that has worked for my clients over the last 15 years. And everyone that does the system gets the result that they want. Now you can do it your way and you can keep getting the same results or you can just, just like, honey, let me take the wheel and we'll just drive this car home. And so I have a lot of programs too that like—

Tell me about your— people can take your program and opt in and do it. I love this. I'm like, I want you to take my wheel.

Yeah, I have. So the online programs are self-led. So it's like, here's the plan. You just follow the plan and it works. So I, I broke what I, what I normally do in a 3-month program with my one-on-one clients. I broke it down into a 30-day online program that just takes you through all of these steps in the dating funnel. So we've talked about mindset a lot. Mindset's the first step. Second step is sourcing. Where are you finding dates? So right now we're all finding them on dating apps. Which is great, which is one of the most powerful tools in your dating toolbox. And I love dating apps. That's how I met my husband. But it's not the only thing that once we get— can get offline, right, that you could be doing. So where are you finding the dates? And then screening. How are you screening through the dates? Because you could go on a lot of dates. Like I was talking about the client that I had for the Shondaland article, you could go on a lot of dates. Yeah. But are you getting your needs met? Are you getting what you want? Are you getting exhausted and frustrated and bitter about dating? So you have to have this filtering process in place to make sure you're going on the right dates. And then it's showing up on the date. It's presentation and flirting skills. Flirting is a little—

Can we talk about flirting? Okay.

Yes.

I want to talk about— Actually, I want to talk about, well, this is your course. I think we shouldn't give it all away. They should come sign up for your course and your website is— tell them.

It's, oh, my website is damonahoffman.com. And then if they're interested in the 30-Day Dating Playbook, it's just 30daydating.com. Com.

Okay, cool. And this is all gonna be in the show notes as well. Let's talk about seduction and teasing and flirting. Sure. This is, this is a learned skill. Not everybody's a great flirter, and I hear that millennials are particularly bad at flirting. Someone told me this. But tell me, let's talk about flirting 101. How do you teach that?

I feel like I'm good at flirting digitally, but are okay, as they haven't it, and this is this is science, because they have spent more time communicating online and through text and emojis and all the other stuff we were talking about, they don't know how to read facial expressions and emotions as well. And I'm not putting down, like, I know a lot of your listeners—

Love a millennial.

Yes.

Totally.

A lot of mine are too. This is just facts. So it's something that you have to develop the skill set to be able to read where someone is coming from nonverbally. And the majority of, of what someone is saying comes across through nonverbal cues. So when you want to build connection with someone, we— can we talk about like once you're moving offline?

Like, yeah, we're not always gonna be online and quarantined in our kitchen.

It's okay, right?

Sitting here talking to you.

Yeah. So I talk about you want to have, have sec with someone. So sec, yeah. Love it. So that is, that is like how you, you build the chemistry. So I want to focus on first, eye contact is the E. Okay, we're practicing.

We're looking at each other right now. Okay, you can look at this video.

We're looking, we're looking at each other like Through Zoom. Like, yeah, yes, on— we're building chemistry online. So you want to have good eye contact. You also want to have— you want to have— you need to have also physical contact. So the way that you sit next to someone on a date can determine whether or not you feel chemistry with them. Okay, you are going on a dinner date, which we already covered is pretty much the worst kind of date that you can have.

First date, worst first date, not worst second date, or just worst date?

Well, I mean, how many amazing dinner dates have you had?

I know, very, very few, right?

I mean, definitely early on because it feels like an interview.

It does.

You want to build, you want to build that connection and that chemistry, and it's really hard to do that if you're sitting on the other side of a table, you're like waiting for the meal to come, and like not that many people look that sexy when they're eating anyway.

No, no.

So if you can do drinks instead, or an activity date, I'll talk about an activity date in a second, but if you can do drinks instead and you sit kitty-corner to them so that you're close enough that you can actually have the other C, contact, so that you can touch one another, that can really build chemistry and also let them know that you're consenting to things going further, especially for women. Like, it's hard for men to initiate that physical content in a way that escalates in a respectful and safe way right now. But for women, it's really important that you send clear signals about what you want.

Okay.

So touching, like, even just a simple, like, bat on the hand when you're like, you're so funny. Right. And then you just— that connection, that moment when you touch each other, that can really— like, most men are really starved for physical attention. Like, you know, Emily, you and I, when we see our girlfriends, like, we hug each other, kiss each other. We're constantly getting physical input. And guys go to the movies and they sit like 3 seats apart because they're worried their knees might touch.

So even just that bat on their hand is like they're feeling it.

Yes, exactly. Okay, exactly. So, and then making the eye contact in tandem with that can really send the signal that you want to escalate things to the next level.

Okay, this is great. So this is when you're together, you're like, you're letting him know that you want to— okay, that's building the tension in the cup. And then what's sec though? What is it? Is it— what's sec?

Oh girl, I'm like having a brain fart on the first one.

Don't worry, I don't even care. I get it, dude, I've had so many.

But I'm like, I have like quarantine brain.

I know, same. Okay, wait, so that's— okay, so but now that we're talking about flirting, now I guess we're doing it out. We talked about the texting. I don't even want to get texting flirting because I just think flirting is important to show that it is not— it's definitely the nonverbal things. I think that's such a great reminder to people when they're like, I can't tell if he likes me and I liked him and why has he tried to kiss me me, and it's like, well, maybe you haven't let it be known yet, and that might come from a touch or from eye contact. And now you're making me realize, though, I'm super touchy, and I feel like men always have thought historically that I was into them or that I wanted something from them. But literally, I'm like, shut up, I'm pushing them. I'm just— I'm physical. And I never really thought— yeah, I always been called flirty, but I never really placed it to the fact that I'm very touchy and very— I make eye contact. I'm Very like friendly.

I remember the first one, the S is for smiling, letting the person know. I was like, it's so simple. I told you quarantine brain, letting the person know that you're enjoying being with them. Like so many times chemistry is built just from being, letting that person know that they're wanted, right? Like when you feel like, oh, that person likes me, you're like, well now I like them and I want to be with them even more. So, you know, smiling, eye contact, and then, and then making physical contact by touching them is— can really like bond you two on that first date. But yeah, Emily, you gotta be careful because your touch is powerful.

I know it is. Now I'm realizing that I have built it up.

And yeah, it doesn't even have to be like touching in an erogenous zone, just touching like on the shoulder, touching the hand is is an escalation.

That's good to know. Okay, so, so Timona, let's just say this. You're in a relationship, you're married for 13 years, 15 years?

You're very married. I always forget, honestly.

You're very married.

Don't tell my husband.

Let's talk about how you have kept it just right now during the quarantine. It might just be helpful to know, like, how, how have you guys kept it interesting, connected, and communicated well during this time? You've kids, right, as well?

I have 2 kids, and honestly, Between my work and the kids' school, a lot of our communication is just like, how do we do this? But we have a check-in every night where we just, I just say, how was today for you? And we can just, we can just really talk about how we're feeling. The thing with, I mean, I have a nice sensitive man because I did Operation Date Nice Guys, who's not afraid of feelings, my feelings or his feelings. You got to let them out. And I know a lot of your listeners are men that may be feeling like it's not safe for them to share or that it's not manly for them to share how they're feeling. And that's the only way that you can really break through in a relationship is for everybody to say really what's going on. The other thing that we do for years, we have always had a weekly date. And that is really important now, even during the quarantine, to continue to do. And so like, I just made like my quarantine date with him for this week. And even though we can't go out, there's so many things that we can still—

What are you going to do? What are you going to do this time?

We don't know yet. We don't know yet. We did, we did trivia night before. Sometimes like we even just play video games because I never do that. It's something like that just kind of makes me feel like a kid again. And when you can get into that state of play, that is really good for a relationship, especially a long-term relationship, because we get into the rut and we get into like, you know, adulting so hard. Like, I got to raise these kids, girl. I got to deal with their school assignments. And when you're stuck in the minutia and the stuff, the housework, that's another thing. I'm sure you've, you've read about the study that women who, who have partners that split the housework are having more sex because guess what? We tired. We're tired.

Of course.

Right.

We're going to do it all. Yeah. If you want to get laid more, guys, like just pick up a dish and wash it. And my husband is really 50/50 on everything, on the parenting, on the housework. Housework. Honestly, I'm working more right now, so it's more like 70/30. Yeah, but that's the thing. Like, if you feel like you're giving more to the relationship and your partner feels like they're giving more, then you're both winning. Like, you should both feel like you're the lucky one.

Exactly. I've always heard that. That is so true. I think that you both have to feel like you got the better end of the deal, right? So it's a great way to say, oh, Damona, I love everything and I love Operation Nice Guy. Well, you're gonna have to I think everybody would love to know about how to create a dating plan. Operation Nice Guy. Look, and he is a nice guy. You are wonderful. I'm going to ask you the 5 quickie questions we ask all of our guests. Are you ready?

I'll try.

Timon Hoffman, biggest turn-on?

A good hard kiss.

Biggest turn-off?

Feet.

What makes good sex?

A lot of foreplay and like skin-to-skin contact.

Something, something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships?

It gets better.

Number one sex tip?

Don't be afraid to say what you want and be willing to be open to trying new things.

I love it. Thank you so much, Damona, for being here. Check out datesandmates.com, your podcast. And Dimona Hoffman everywhere, pretty much, right?

I'm on all the socials @DimonaHoffman. I love, I love the DMs. I love answering questions, which we do every week on Dates and Mates. And I am such a fan of the show, Emily, so thank you for paving the way for other podcasters like me and being an inspiration.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for being on the show. I so appreciate it. It's a great chat. Thanks.

Thanks.

SexWithEmily.com/SMS. Rate us and review us wherever you listen to the show, on whatever podcast platform. It definitely helps us. We're releasing 3 shows a week. Our store's still open on our website if you want to buy some toys and some things to keep your own sex life going with yourself or with a partner. Check that out. And thank you everybody for supporting the show and my amazing team for all your hard work all the time— Ken, Kristin, Elisa, Brian, and Robin, producer Jamie, and Michael. Was Is it good for you? Email me feedback@sexwithemily.com.

President Barack Obama. Virginia, we are counting on you. Republicans want to steal enough seats in Congress to rig the next election and wield unchecked power for 2 more years. But you can stop them by voting yes Yes by April 21st. Help put our elections back on a level playing field and let voters decide, not politicians. Vote yes by April 21st.

Paid for by Virginians for Fair Elections.

USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com/bundle. Restrictions apply.