What's in a Dame? with Alex Fine

Okay, so let's talk about one of my favorite ways to upgrade your solo or partner play. It is the Hera by Jeju. It's a sleek, powerful rabbit vibrator that's basically the best of both worlds. It's incredible for internal stimulation and those rumbly, mind blowing clitor vibes Jaejoo is known for. Here's what I love. The external ears are powered by the same motor as the Mimi which you've heard me rave about before. I love the Mimi. And the internal arm delivers deep, deep, satisfying vibrations right to your G spot. It's super soft, ultra quiet and it moves with your body. So whether you're using it solo or with a partner, it has this feel like it's made just for you. And honestly, it's kind of a no brainer. Everyone loves the hera and right now you can get 20% off the hera using code emily20@sexwithemily.com hera that's emily20 for 20 off at sexwithemily.com h e r a so if you've been looking for a toy that delivers powerful blended orgasm with thoughtful design and serious quality, this is it. So go treat yourself. You deserve it. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show. I'm joined by co founder of Dame Products, Alexander Fine to talk about women in sex tech, the ins and outs of running a sex toy company and the G spot debate. What is it? Where is it and why you should never question its existence again. Why having an STD is not the end of the world. And are you a one and done kind of person? How to stop up losing interest in your partners after the first sexual encounter. All this and more. Thanks for listening.

Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that block our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day. Hey, Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Because my man e here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards.

Oh my. The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common knowledge?

What do you mean? Like laundry? It shrinks.

Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me? Oh my God, I feel so good.

Being bad feels pretty good. But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships and everything in between. For more information, go to sexwithemily.com, check it out. Check out Our website because it's a good time. And you can also follow us on all social media. It's exwhealthmily across the board on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And here's the fun news. You can listen to podcasts pretty much everywhere that you're hanging out these days. Spotify, Google Play, iHeartRadio, SoundCloud, if you're into that sort of thing, everywhere. So thanks everyone for listening. Checking us out on itunes. I appreciate when you review us there. It helps the show and that makes me happy because I want to keep doing shows because I love you all. And I also love my guest. She's amazing. Alexandra Fine. She's the co founder of Dame Products. You know, I love a good sex toy. She is an innovative woman. She's a master's in clinical psychology from Columbia and she focused on marriage and sex therapy. So we're going to talk about that. She also realized, but what's going on with women in sex? Women aren't having great sex. They deserve more orgasm. So she's very innovative and started Dame Products and I just adore her. CEO and co founder of Dane Products, Alex Fine.

Hi.

I'm so excited. She came from New York, stopped by, said hello, we're gonna get some dinner, but first we're gonna talk business and sex. So welcome to the show. Tell me people. Not everyone knows about your journey here. So let's tell me about your journey with Dame Products.

Yeah. So Dame Products has been a company for a little over four years now. It was started by myself and my co founder, Janet. Janet went to MIT for mechanical engineering. And as you mentioned, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist for a. I got my master's in psychology at Columbia and I had worked at Planned Parenthood and really focused my studies on sexuality, women's studies. But ultimately I'm just not very good at listening and I'm really impatient. So I was like, let me see what else is out there. I worked in a consumer goods company. I loved it. It was like a three to four person company depending on that part of my journey. And I was like, oh, I love entrepreneurship. This is amazing. What if I made sex toys? Like, I can put my passion for passion and mix it with entrepreneurship and maybe more effectively impact women's sexuality that way.

Right. So what about sex toys before? Like, why sex toy? Had you had experience with sex toys before? So you like, were a connoisseur fan?

So I am 30. In 1998 is when sex and the City had that rabbit episode.

It was like 20 years ago this month.

It was 20 years ago. So for me, I definitely felt growing up, like, sex toys were, like, risque, but, like, everybody's doing it right. And I knew where Babe land was. Cause I grew up outside of New York City. So I.

In some ways had used vibrators. I think probably maybe around 16, starting maybe. I don't know how I got one.

And.

Yeah. But they were never. They never felt well. A ton of them just broke on me. I had one light on fire.

Batteries and stuff. They start heating. Yeah.

I had like the bullet with, like the wire. And one time, like, when you want your vibrator to work, you want your vibrator to work.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. I always say, like, people are like, what's the worst sex you ever have? Like, literally when I'm almost there, my vibrator dies. When that used to happen, not as much anymore. It's vibrator. Okay, so. So you had. So you were obviously studying sex experiences. Sex had your own toys, and then you're like, oh, my God, I want to make a toy.

I want to make a toy. I always wanted to help more vulva owners experience more pleasure. You know, women are four times more likely to say that sex has been not at all pleasurable in the last year. They're, you know, half as likely to have an orgasm during sex. There's just a whole list of stigma and issues around female sexuality relative to male sexuality. And I just really wanted to impact that in my life. And making toys that were designed to increase female pleasure in a way that made partners still feel included in the experience seemed like something that people weren't really necessarily doing in the space. Plus, I feel like all the toys out, not all of them, but a lot of them, there was definitely the stuff that was lighting on fire and not great quality and not safe at the time. There was like the jelly stuff and then there was the high, high end stuff. That was really amazing, but I never felt like it was marketed for me. Right. It felt really hypersexual. Like they were like always, like in dark packages. It was like, very sexy and really expensive too.

It's funny. I was. Yeah, it's true. They were. When they changed about. I'm trying to think it's probably about 10 years ago, 12 years ago, I think. Like, I think you mentioned that I was reading something you wrote Jimmy Jane, like, early on when they started. And it was like, that was the first one. Yeah.

Maybe even early 2000s.

And you're like, oh, it doesn't look like a big penis. Like that's. And a lot of the toys were developed by men and thinking, well, women must want a penis.

Yeah, people must.

Like that's just. Must be what they want is extension. Because I'm not there. Like that whole mentality around. I think we have come a long way since then and even since the Sex and the City episode, which was so pivotal. That is literally the one moment on television that people can bring up where they like saw a vibrator like the first time. Yeah. So that and that and then to where they are now. But you're right. So Those toys like 10 years ago is when they started changing. That's what I love about your product, is that your toy is that it really is something. It's wearable.

So.

Yeah.

Oh, right. Okay.

So I know we've got so much to say here, you guys. You know I always bring it back.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we launched this company. I finally met, like I had this idea for this one specific vibrator which is called Eva. Now we make a few, but this was kind of the product that launched us. It's a hands free clitoral vibrator that a vulva owner can wear. It has these bendable wings that tuck underneath the labia majora. It pushes them out kind of like a spider man or a ninja climbing up a wall or something. And that keeps the motor in place and you can wear it while you're being penetrated. 70% of women, and there's a lot of research out there that shows it's even higher in some way have their most sexual sensation via their clitoris.

Yes, yes.

So we wanted to create a way for vulva owners to have that stimulation during penetrative sex. Pivming. Somebody called it pivving.

Piving.

PV sex Pivving, like penis in vagina. Pivming. I love it. I'm trying to spread it. I think it should catch on. Generally when people think of sex, that is what they think of, but it's actually a really male centric view of sex. And we often view sex as like ending with the male orgasm. How can we increase female pleasure? And what does that look like? So anyway, Eva, we. We created it. I met my co founder very serendipitously and she was able to like take these very scary things I was making at home and turn them into like a beautiful manufactured product. We launched it on Indiegogo, which is a crowdfunding platform.

Right.

And we raised over half a million dollars.

That's amazing. Congratulations, by the way.

That's huge in this industry.

And didn't you have to, like, petition them to allow you to actually do us crowdfund for sort of.

Okay, so. So we had to. We reached out to Kickstarter and they denied us. And so we went on Indigogo and Indiegogo is really supportive of the industry at the time, and they didn't. We didn't have to petition. But then two years later, we launched our second product, which is Fin, which is also phenomenal. It's a finger vibrator. It's really just easy to hold and grip.

Okay.

Again, it's like the goal of it that time was we wanted to make touch, to increase touch without taking away from the. From what it's like to touch somebody. Like, oftentimes we use these toys. A lot of these toys, like, become the experience. They put their. It's like a long stick of plastic, maybe between you and your partner. So we wanted to, like, minimize the space. So it's kind of like a small little bullet vibrator with those, you know, the things that people put in the back of their phones.

Yes.

It's like almost like that's on the back of your phone. Little topper. So it just like fits between your fingers. People with arthritis love it. It's just like, so easy to hold.

And then we, at that point, our offices just like, happened to be around the block from Kickstarter. And we had met them in the scene and they started to get to know us, and we sent them an email being like, hey, we're about to do our second crowdfunding campaign. We're just curious how you guys feel about us maybe using the platform. And they kind of came back to us and they were like, you know, what we've reviewed, how we feel about the space and what the space can be. And like, you've changed our minds, essentially. And they let us on the platform. Amazing. Yeah, it was. It was a tough decision because we had such a great experience with Indiegogo and we felt like we were.

Oh, I see. So Indigo kickstart. I get it.

Right.

Because the only two competitors.

But it was just so amazing to be the first. Yes, yeah. Right. There are two separate platforms.

Which one? Okay, got it. You're also, you know, learned a lot through the last four years you've been doing this, I'm sure, from vulva owners. I'm trying to get better at this. Really, people, I mean, I just have to. It's true. People with vulvas.

Vulva owners, it's hard because on the.

Internet, this has changed just so my listeners know, like say woman man. But that's really is assumptive right now with different gender identities. Like to say person with a vulva, person with a penis. Penis owners.

It's funny because generally you don't need to identify people that way. I actually make products for vulvas.

Right. That's like literally.

Literally.

But even now you.

Right, yeah. Because right. There are. Now there are men, or there probably have been for quite some time. But now we really have a lot more. More of a stronger population that identify as men and even present as men.

And feel like everything is masculine.

Masculine. But they have. They have a vagina, they have a vulva, and that's fantastic. And the products work for them as well.

Exactly.

Even though actually sometimes testosterone can change your vulva a little bit. So there are different shapes, which is something that we think about in product development.

Right.

Eva fits different people differently. It depends on how enlarged your clitoris is, which is what testosterone often does to the clitoris. So if it gets really enlarged, it will kind of be hard to wear. Eva.

Okay.

So Fin is definitely better for that. And it's definitely something that we're like considering too in our designs and understanding.

Cause we're going to be making some more.

Oh, yeah, we're launching more stuff, like a whole thing. We have like a little. Little program called Dame Labs where anybody can kind of sign up to be involved in helping us design our products. And we send out surveys and that's awesome. Yeah.

So dameproducts.com where they can find it, right?

Yeah.

You go to Dame Products, show notes as well.

Yeah. We'll make sure it gets out there.

We will. We've both been in this industry and you've learned a lot in the last few years that you've been doing this. Five years now, four years. So you've gotten great feedback. It's been really successful. You guys. You know that I know all the toys out there. And what have you learned about sex or response from vulva owners?

I would say I feel happy.

Vulva owners?

Yeah. I often feel like I relearn like just like the most simple truths, you know, every now and then. Like, we are different and we all experience sensation differently. And there's a huge variety of what we like. And like, it's very subjective. And like sometimes I'm always just like shocked by that clitoral stimulation. It seems to really be the preferred products. We're excited to make internal toys. Something I've personally learned is how much I like internal toys, I didn't know until I actually started. I've been more aggressively trying out sex toys since now that I have a sex toy company.

Yeah, exactly. They send them to you. Well, crazy, right?

Yeah.

I really love weighted dildos.

Oh, not even vit. But dildos.

Dildos like internal products that have, like, mass. I didn't realize, like, the weight. You can kind of. It's about pressure play more than vibration internally. And that was something that, like, I had no idea. So while, you know, we've been making toys, like, it's something like 80% of our. We did a survey recently, and 80% preferred clitoral fibroblast.

We did this study, too. So we were asking our listeners, was it our formal study? It might have been our formal study, but we just did a big survey, and then we did one on Twitter. But we're asking people, and most people want the clitoral toys, which makes sense because the clitoris is where all the magic happens. That's why we have 8,000 nerve endings there. And it's not just that little bud. So that's kind of the entree point. But so many toys before were oriented towards that. And you're making me think of. I'm going to go right into the sex the news thing here, because I feel like you said, you keep learning things over and over again, but yet, in a way I've been using a long time. Things do change. But there's really some things. Like, people can test the G spot and does it really exist? Or why does it exist? Or how do you explain where it is? I also find that people that I am close with in my life, not just listeners, but they're like, that I think would know or would be more familiar, are like, does everyone have a G spot? Like, women friends of mine. And I still feel like we're so insular in this industry in many ways. But, yeah, that people are surprised by it or they still want to know where it is. So what is the deal with the G spot? So over the years that there have been conflicting ideas over what it is. And it was invented by Ernst Grafenberg, which I always think it's funny that a man was the one who was like, hey, there is this G spot. It is real. So why is there controversy? So it's more complicated. And it's not just like a spot. It's really like, oh, well, is it actual anatomical structure? Like, are doctors and medical schooling? And this is the G spot.

Right.

You know, it's more about the tissues that are. And some people think it is an extension of the clitoris. Many theories abound about the G spot. You know, it's real and pleasure. Whether or not it's a myth, it's understood by medical professionals and sexual experts, sexual experts like ourselves here, to be part of the urethral clitoral complex. It extends inside the body up to 5 inches, well into the labium, abdomen. And the G spot is part of the clitoris. Some say that's the back end of the internal structure. I just wanted to discuss with you about. Because you just brought this up about the toys. Like, people often think that the G spot is this holy grail of orgasms and there's something wrong if we can't have it.

Freud.

I just. Exactly. I just want everyone to chill a little bit out about it. And I do, you know, hope that people just do the exploring that women are like, I'm going to go inside. I'm just gonna figure it out. I'm gonna use a toy. They could use same products. They could use the eva. They could use the fin. I would say if you are looking for it, do a little research. Knock out that orgasm first, the clitoral orgasm. And then it can help you more engorge the G spot. So let's just talk about your thoughts on the G spot, all that we threw out there.

My thoughts are that if people are reporting the experience, then it exists. Right. Like done. I just really don't know how we, you know, like, I think. I think Kinsey had, I think, reported that there was somebody interviewed who was able to orgasm from rubbing their eyebrows.

Yeah.

So like, you know, that's what. Right. And your thoughts, like, whatever does, you know, whatever brings you to orgasm is great. And if there is a spot in your body that seems to have some kind of nerve connection that gives you pleasure in your brain, then that for you is a spot. So, like, it exists.

It does exist. So how would you explain it? Okay, where's the G spot, Alex? Fine.

The G spot is on the frontal wall. It's about usually an inch to 2 inches up on the front wall. And you can kind of changes like squishiness, I think.

Yeah. And it's like too big. You put a finger inside, come hither motion towards the frontier wall. And you can find like a rough like. Like an apricot pit or peach pit.

Ooh, like that? Yes. Like the.

Can get rough and kind of swollen. That's how you can find it by penetrating it by kind of applying pressure. Yeah. So.

And I think that another thing to do is to also. Instead of just looking for it, to kind of like do that stroking come. That come hither motion that we're talking about, but go from side to side really slowly and see if there's a part where it does feel different. I think sometimes when you're just trying to hit the spot, you actually just might be hitting it over and over again, but you're not sure exactly. It's like, try a different spot that doesn't feel as good and to feel more.

Exactly. Because you never know. Because that's why it does help to be warmed up. I think just going in for it. That's why I love my clitoral toys. And I think that's. For a lot of women, the clitoral orgasm is the easiest one.

Yeah. But sometimes I even use a clitoral toy. And I've had. There's something like one of my pet peeves with toys is when they don't have a low enough setting.

Yeah.

And I have to, like, layer. Like, we're all like, put a. Put like the toy underneath the pillow or something.

Right, Right. Or do your underwear. Three pairs of underwear on.

Yeah. Yeah. Just to like. Because it's about. It's a slow warmup. And that feels for me. I like that.

I agree. I like playing with the toys. People just are think. I think what we're saying is that all this stuff about exploring. It really is important to not give up. Also, if you've just been looking in one way. But there's a lot of other sensations. One toy could give you so many different. So much pleasure. So you gotta keep looking for the pleasure spot. So when you said you've just discovered G spot toys, prior to that, how do you orgasm? Like, how did you first discover it? So I need to know.

I actually have internal and external orgasms.

Okay. So I think that's why it's harder for you to. I had to go on this spelunking mission.

Yeah. But I definitely didn't really know where my own G spot was. I also wonder if penetration being viewed as, like, sex, like, and what sex actually is, if that, like, made it to me just, like, more taboo and dirtier and therefore, like, I was into it more or something. And it was like. I remember when I was younger and I first started having sex, like, literally having an orgasm within, like, the first three, like, just like, because there was like, a penis inside of me. And I wonder if it was even just more mental than it was, like, I was so revved up. And those, like, first year or so of having sex, it's like, every time you're like, oh, my God, are we going to have. Right.

It's gonna.

Is it like, are we gonna do it? Like, that's not the situation anymore.

Now it's like, you're like, she's married. She's an old married doctor. She's got married.

She's not, like, dating somebody for a long time or, like, even in your 20s. For me, in my 20s, when sex was definitely something I knew I wanted to do and I was gonna even go for it and all of that, like, I.

You had an orgasm within the first time that the penis went inside of you?

Yeah. I was really.

You guys, don't try this at home. This is not normal. This is very rare. I don't know how. I probably kind of want to hand. How many times I've heard that someone had an orgasm the first time they had sex?

I definitely. And I was even. I think I was orgasming when I was a little kid.

So you were, like, masturbating or you found it.

I used to, like, hump all my pillows and, like. And all my stuffed animals. Fluffy had, you mean, potentially a traumatic life. I'm not really sure how Fluffy feels about it.

Right. Wow. Fluffy was a pet. I was a. Not a real pet. Something like that.

Not a real pet.

No. We can't talk about that in the air if it was. But. Right. So you were one of those. I wish. I have such envy. I really do. Admiration, whatever. For girls who were a kid. I didn't know.

But everybody is different, and everybody explores it differently. And I think that that makes your experience just different. And maybe in some ways, there's probably parts of it that I would feel envious of.

Probably. That's what makes the world go round.

Yeah.

But really for women, I was just like, God, you just. You had that.

I think that that is. And then. Then I really liked it, and I wanted to talk about it and I wanted to experience it more. Like, I definitely felt like.

When I was younger and in my teenage years, like, you know, you're a woman, you're either gonna be a mom or you're gonna be a whore. It's gonna be one of those, too. And I was, like, way more stoked to be a whore.

Right.

Like, seemed more interesting. I just. I was like, oh, I want to. Like. Yeah. And I wanted to.

How did that manifest, like, a horror for you? Like, what did you do, like, in your brain or. In your life.

I don't. I think it's actually funny because I'm saying that, like, on one hand, and then actually what happened was in. I don't know if I wanted to be a whore. You know, it's like me, because, like, it's like the two structures that I think you're kind of given.

Yeah, exactly. But good girl. I was like a good girl on Megan. Sleepy. Slutty.

Yeah. But I was also like a Goodyear Goody in some ways. Like, I was a straight A student.

And I got the grades I'm gonna get.

Yeah, I was like a tomboy, too. I really liked. I was really competitive with the boys. And I. In sixth grade, like, some of my good guy friends wanted to know what kissing felt like, and I was like, oh, I could totally make that happen for you. And I, like, kissed three boys in one night. And that did not go over well in the school.

Well, their parents got called, like, no, no, no, no, no.

I mean, like, people were just mean. I mean, there's more to it. People were really mean to me. And I, like, went home crying that day. And then, like, was definitely felt a little slut shamed.

And in sixth grade.

Yeah, in sixth and seventh grade. And then I got really.

Was much more guarded about doing the things I wanted to do because I was concerned about, like, the societal feedback.

So, yeah, that. So this is, like, weird, because on one hand, I was like, yeah, I totally was like, oh, the madam on this TV show seems like she's in control of this situation and seems dope. Like, I think that's who I want to be.

Way more interesting in the mom than the mom.

Totally.

Whatever. I agree. I get that.

Like, but then on the flip side, I definitely did not like the social stigma.

No, no, it's true. Because girls are. Everyone can be so mean. So what do we do now, though?

Like.

Because women are still not, I guess, in our businesses, in our worlds, we're trying to change this. But women are not having pleasurable sex. They're not able to ask what they want. I would rather have women kiss and experiment in a safe way than not because they're afraid they're going to get ridiculed. That's what I think. I was more shut down because I was afraid of. I was just raised to be, like, a good girl in many ways. Or that was what I told myself. But now I wish maybe I've made up for it. But when I was in high school or I went the other way. Like, I'm just Not going to. I was afraid that if I made out with a guy or did something, had sex with someone, that they would judge me or that it would be a thing. So I was like, I'm not gonna do that. And so I try to figure out still, like, what is the happy medium. I think it's also telling women it's okay to have casual sex and to be okay with it as long as it's consensual. That I just hope that it's changing soon, that we realize it's for pleasure and there's no bullying, but it's still going on.

I think you're gonna have a wide range of experiences and you're gonna constantly find new boundaries. For me.

I left college, so I dated somebody throughout all of college and, like, did women gender studies. And I was like, I'm a sexually liberated woman, but I really been just like, dating this one guy this whole college. And then we broke up. And then I was like, I'm gonna go out there and like, I wanna get the sex that I want. But then I did hit, like, I wasn't having great sex and I didn't really always enjoy it. And, like, I wasn't really sure what I was looking for in it. And I, like, re questioned some of those things, and that's fine too. Like, you're just. I think it's okay to have uncomfortable experiences and to enjoy doing something, and then the next day you realize, oh, I don't enjoy that now, and that's okay too. And not to, like, get. So, you know, I definitely would be, like, down on myself. Like, am I looking for love in the wrong places and trying to, like, you know, I don't know.

That's part of the experience. Exactly. You can't possibly know until you. That's why I'm all for people dating around and trying to figure out what they really love so then you can figure out what you don't. Sometimes what you don't like is easier than figuring out what you like. But when you were having bad sex, what is bad sex to you?

Well, to me, bad sex was definitely, like, could be painful, you know, it could be. It's like what a lot of other women are expressing now, really. Just, like, uncomfortable and just bad sex would be like, you know, we were kissing and it was like straight from that to pivming to being done.

I'll figure out pivping. That's like my favorite. Honestly.

That's because, like, it's a very specific. Really, when we think about sex, like, that's usually what we're talking about. But really, it's. That's much more specific than when I have good sex.

What's good sex?

Good sex is, to me, is slower, but not always. I actually do really like pounding.

Yeah.

You can swear I can say fucking. Yeah. And that is, like. I remember definitely learning and feeling this. Like, there's making love and then there's fucking. And I'm always like, how do I make them just do all of it.

At the same time?

I want it all in one session.

You could even flow through all of them. Yes. That's a Friday.

That's so fun.

I know. So you recently got married, like, literally, like, five minutes ago.

Like, five minutes, yeah.

And so how is your. So now I'm assuming you're having amazing sex all the time, but I'm curious. I know it's hard. So, as a sex educator, like, what did you.

I used to have such a. I used to put a quota on myself because, like, sexuality becomes such a part of my identity and my work, and I view myself as a sexual being. And in order to be a sexual being, I have to be having sex at least four times a week. You know, like, I decided. And that was so. That was such an awful thing to.

Do to myself sometimes. Just not. You just can't. You just. I can't be with your partner for seven years.

So maybe my sexual. Sometimes I don't think I am as sexual as I was.

We're not. Well, it changes over time. Yes. Everything and things can impact us, like hormones or medications or we're just freaking tired or. Being an entrepreneur starting a business definitely.

Killed my sex life a lot sometimes. And you would think also trying out these toys would be fun, but sometimes it's work.

It is like, it is work. So did it impact. Do you think that it ever got like, oh, my God, this is work when you're having sex a little bit?

Like, I would definitely, definitely have had experiences where I was trying. I had a few prototypes to try. And I would be like, I want us to keep the controls the same. So it's like, I don't want to change the position. Like, I want to try these three toys and see which one stays in place the best. Right. So it's like, we had to do it in the same. I would be like, okay, thrust exactly the same way.

Stop.

No, stop. And I would, like, switch out the toy.

It's like you're trying to get pregnant. Yeah.

I don't know what that experience is.

I know but no, but that's what they say. They're like, honey, just sit here. Don't move. I'm gonna do a handstand. I get that. The thing is, it's funny. Cause when you work in this, people think, well, don't you ever get sick of sex? I'm like, I could never get sick of sex. Does a chef get tired of cooking or food or eating? But I could see, like, you know, we're talking about all the time. And sometimes I am.

I mean, I guess that we all sometimes get sick of life. Right. But mostly, like, I enjoy living life, and I try to focus on that. And it's not really about how much life I live. It's not like, oh, I've been living life so much, so now I don't like it anymore.

Exactly. Because sex is. It can keep getting better.

Yeah.

Keep improving communication, and you find new.

Things, and it keeps changing. And it's kind of fun that your relationships change and your body change. Maybe we've never thought about it like that.

Exactly. I want to embrace the fact that our bodies change, what we desire change, and when and how we want sex changes. So I think giving ourselves permission, like you said, this arbitrary four times a week, which sounds good, right? Because people are always saying to me, probably one of the first questions that asked, they say, how many times should I be having sex my wife? And I'm like, and I don't should. I'm not gonna normalize it. Is it okay for you and your partner find out what works for both of you. Don't pick it out, but to know that it's okay, that it's not always amazing, you're not always gonna want to, and what can you do to.

And I think that also as, like, as a sex talker, you know, people expect that your sex life is both amazing and wild and kinky and all of these things, and that you've tried it all, but that's not necessarily true.

Will you stay and help me answer some questions for the people? Thank you, Alex Fine from Dame Products. And thank you, everyone, for listening. Now, quick shout out to our sponsors and we'll be right back.

Was there anything that being in this industry, though, that you did try, that you never thought you would?

Yeah. Well, I think that, like, definitely starting a sex toy company for me gave me a reason to buy. Just to have so many sex toys, you know, and really get to explore and experience them. I do wonder if I would have tried some of these internal products.

Right.

Because it's like, oh, I was doing these things. I was having a great, great time. So to go out and search for more.

Right.

I don't know if I would have.

Yeah, exactly. I want to know how you think having more women in this industry is going to change sex toys and sex tech.

Well, one, almost all industries were dominated by men for a long time. So, you know, it's not just that it's not just vibrators, but it is interesting that there have been so many men, like designing these products that are ultimately meant to please a female body. But they weren't testing them on there. They weren't asking, no one was talking about it. And they were designing these products that were very much replicate. Like just like penises. Like, you know, like what. What do. Yeah. For pivot. It's like, oh, what. What's your. Women. Women must want more penises, I guess. And there's just like a lot of other things. I think about the way sometimes they've been designed. Like, I feel like it's not as common, but for a while they were putting like porn stars and stuff on vibrators and it's just like, why would.

Women on the boxes? Up until about yet 10, 12 years ago, you're like, oh, I gotta hide this. Like, that's what people think of it. So it has changed.

Yeah, it was really interesting. I don't think that. I don't think that the marketers were acknowledging who the market was or they were selling it to men to use on women. Like, it was like vibrators were still ultimately for male pressure and like even like the way, like what is up on a vibrator? You know, like when you're using it on yourself, it's like you are using it upside down. That's how they're designed. Sort of. But people are starting to change that.

Exactly. They try to change where the buttons are.

They're like, oh, yeah, that kind of makes sense. Like women. And I think women see that. Or if you have the right equipment to try the products, you can make the products better.

There's more likelihood that you'll get.

Exactly. You actually have the clitoris that you can measure to put around. Yeah.

We like have 3D printers in our office. So we like 3D print our prototypes, make them in house. And we could literally go into the bathroom.

That's so cool. I'll be like, oh, do you guys do that? It must be fun in your office. It is a fun.

But I will say I was talking to a bunch of friends and people were talking about if you've ever masturbated in the office and people were going around and talking about it, and I was like, well, it's funny because I have masturbated in the office for work because I had to.

You had to.

Which is very different than everybody else there. And I don't find it enjoyable. It's not actually like, I'm masturbating. It's like, I'm just trying to feel this out.

You probably have a little notepad next to you.

Exactly. It's, like, not.

It's not sexy.

It's not sexy. I'm not doing it for sexual, like, which is challenging. It probably would be better. Or it is better experience when I go home and really get to experience it in the whole way that I would naturally do it. But, yeah, we'll do that, and then we'll, like, change the way the ridge is or change, like, how it.

You know, your partner must be really close. Are you like, hey, I just tried this ridge. Go in. And you tried it?

It's funny because I think, yes, we are close. And I think the team, though, in general, does a really great job of kind of, like, objectively talking about their experiences in a way that isn't, like, about.

Sensuality. It's just kind of about their objective experience. So we can make the toy better. But it still is. We still talk about our vaginas. Like, we are, like. I think it really helps. And we. It is really hard. We just never want anybody in the company to feel uncomfortable, but we also want them to feel comfortable to, like, just help us make this product better.

Right?

Yeah.

I wish that more. This is the other thing. My wish for women vulva owning people, vulva having, is that we do just celebrate it and feel more comfortable about it and that we are, like, I have my. We're not so secretive about everything that's going on. Ejaculating our periods and needing tampons or how we're changing and our moods change and how. Just. I don't know. I just think this whole, like, embarrassment around it, like, just celebrating it, loving it, looking in the mirror, like, it makes us human. If you haven't done this yet, like, I don't know if I've talked about this in a while, but take a mirror and just take a look. And at first, you'll be like, the first time I heard my voice, maybe through on mic, I'd be like, oh, that's my voice. And I'm like, okay. You will feel that way, too, about your vagina. At first you're like, whoa. But, like, they're all different. They're like snowflakes. And the more you, like, see it, you get to know it. And then. You know what's a really cool thing to do is when you're masturbating, to look at it before and then as you get turned on and to see, like, clitoris swells.

I always sit down to do this, and then I, like, get into it.

Someone's like, can I use the bathroom? You're like, God damn it.

No, more like, at home. Like, I'll cut. You know, Because I do think also the way you're full of shape changes and, like, to see it and to see it, like, a little bit. Like, it's puffier. It's like.

It's, like, hot. Like, the blood. It's, like, puffy. And, like, if you have a hidden clitoris, it, like, comes out. You're like, hello.

Yes.

You've been hiding there. Like, I just think because I talk a lot about exploration and the idea of having a vaginal idea. If I sold of a journal so you guys could write down, like, a. Like, you could just journal about your vagina for journal and. Because I think you'd see not only.

Am I talking about.

I know, okay, we trademarked it. All the exploration that you're doing, you're trying it out. You're figuring out, where's my G spot, where's my clitoris? Like, what's turning me on? And then if you actually looking. So I feel, like, a lot. I feel like I need to talk about this more, you guys, because then you're gonna understand that when you're masturbating or when you're having sex, you'll know more. Like, actually, since I'm so familiar with mine now, I'll be like, oh, that's. I know where the sensitivity is on the upper left part of my clitoris. Like, I know it more. And then that's helped me guide my partner by looking. So I think that could be a bridge for a lot of women to gap to look at their vagina in that way and watch how it changes and grows and blossoms.

I definitely also think of finding, like, a lexicon, like, some words. Like, I really like the term like orbiting and layering, which I found really helpful with me and my partner. Well, tell me, like, orbiting is like. Like, rubbing around my clitoris. Like, you orbit it. So. Not direct stimulation. Because I'm like, I don't want you to touch my clitoris, like, directly. Like, in like, but. But orbiting. He's like, oh, I know exactly what you want now.

Right?

And if layering is like, I want you to kind of put my lips on top of my clitoris and rub my labia lips this way. It's again, like, it's non direct clitoral stimulation. And just when I learned about those words or, like, had that language and then I could explain it to my partner.

Those are really good words.

Those are great words.

It's like, kind of mansplaining the.

Yeah, but, like, it's hard because, I mean, like, we have all of these terms for, like, specific ways to get balls in a hoop. Like, there's a difference between, like, a layup and, you know, like, we should have more words for how you touched.

Right. And I want to. I want to get back to this, what you just said about the. I know what you mean about your labia coming over the clitoris or, like, using it to circle, to layer, or to orbit. A lot of women do require indirect clitoral stimulation. And the clitoris is not just the little bud. It's actually. There's so many nerve endings. That's why we can't say the G spot yet. The clitoris, it's all. Let's just tell you that it all feels really good. And this is why exploring it is important. And that when you're doing that, it's like you're still pulling on the nerve endings, are still kind of tugging at them, if you will. Or with the layering and the orbiting. Cause it's all these nerve endings that you're experimenting with is what I'm saying.

They're all different. And also, like, penises are different too. You know, I definitely feel like, you know, I am.

Hetero. Like, what do they call it? Hetero. Flexible.

Right.

And they're like, maybe even. I don't know. But, like, most of my experiences have been with the penises over vaginas and vulvas. But, you know, some guys or some penis havers don't like it when their balls get touched. Although some people do.

Exactly. You gotta check case by case, ball by ball basis.

Yeah, everyone's different. Everybody, like, just. It's not. It's not like, oh, that means that, like, the balls don't exist. Like, different people have.

You got to talk about it. So how did you figure it out with your partner?

Your husband, the second touched his balls. He, like, he does not like it.

Right.

So I kind of sometimes still, honestly, I. We're getting pretty personal here.

It's Fine. We're fine.

But, like, I sometimes still feel like it's a trust thing. Like, do you not trust me?

Right.

Like, I have. Like, you know, if somebody was. Was asking me, I'd be like, well, you shouldn't take it personally, you know, Exactly. But, like, in between me and him, I'm like, it's because you don't trust me.

You think I'm gonna smash your butt.

Look at you. Yeah.

Yeah, I know how to do this.

Yeah.

It's true, though. It's fine.

I like to nibble. I. I do like pulling and nibbling and biting a little bit more than he does. So sometimes I do it maybe more to him. I could see where maybe he doesn't trust me. Like, I kind of get it.

Well, if he said not to. And you are, I don't trust you either. Yeah, I understand what he's saying, but it's a good freaking point that we don't probably talk about the penis is that it is so different. Every person, too. So I've even had. Like, recently, we had an email from a woman, from a listener, and she was like, I'm dating someone, and he really doesn't like blow jobs. What do I do? Am I doing it wrong? Because as women, oftentimes we do blame ourselves and think we're missing something. But, yes, there's some people who don't love oral sex.

Men do that, too. I think that that's actually one of the things we hear about our vibrators that people really like or a wide range of things is like, they don't. Men often want to feel like they're still doing it, and they feel like, oh, if you use a vibrator, like, it's not really me. Like, it's not. I need to give you the orgasm.

Exactly. So how do you. Okay, so this is my question. How? Because you actually are making the choice. I'm just. It's one of the many things I talk about in the sense of like. But for you, like, you must get that every day. Like, is it going to replace. I mean, you still are oftentimes. So what's your answer to that? Because I know I've answered it so many times. Times on the show and in life when they're like, oh, we don't need that. You're telling them what you do. Right. You probably like a couple, and they're like, oh, that sounds nice. That you make toys. We don't need that. Because there is this sense that he's supposed to deliver it.

Yeah. And I Feel like there's also this, you know, I think guys definitely have an ego thing with it as well. One thing that we say often in the office is that if we're going to acknowledge that women are sexual beings, we also need to validate that men are emotional beings and that they're sensitive and these things do matter in their sexual experiences. And it's really easy, I think, to. Or it can be really easy to just be like, that's, you know, it's not a human being. It's just this object. It's a tool. It can never truly replace another human.

But if that's how someone's feeling, we need to acknowledge that and have a conversation about it in a real way.

Right. But I think once you find those people haven't tried. Yeah.

I also think that not everybody does have access to a partner. And if this is a really fantastic.

Way, you must have a lot of firsts. Like, people who've emailed or got in touch. We get a lot of emails. So however they see you in life and say, like, wow, they had the first orgasms or their first time feeling.

Comfortable buying a vibrator or using a vibrator.

Yeah. And we've also, like, had a lot of first two as a company. We're the first company to. In this space to be on Kickstarter. We were just on, like, primetime tv.

Oh, I want to talk to you about that.

Yeah. So, like, we've had some of our own kind of first as well. And I think that that is helping more people change how they view the space.

Yeah, well, I think so. I watched you. She was just on today's show. They can check it out on your site.

Yeah.

But if you go to the Megyn Kelly Live show.

And it was. Yeah, Meg Kelly. And I was like, wow. You know, it's so funny because since we saw it on Sex and the City, the vibrate. There's really. There are laws against showing vibrate. You can't show them on tv. Like, I know I've been on a few talk shows, and they were like, but we can't actually show it. And it's like. And I could see you because I remember having been. I was on the Today show and the Doctors, a few other things, and they were like, you can't. You literally have to be so careful about what you say. Like, you couldn't even say, like, she said to you, oh, there's a clip on it. Like, you couldn't even. You said, labia majora.

I said labia majora. And then people like, I know I did. I did say clitoral stimulation. They didn't want us to use the word masturbation, but they were. They told us. They were like, if it's a medical word, why wouldn't we be able to use it? And I was like, yep.

But I.

But in my head, I was like, oh, there's.

There's men.

There has been. It's. It's not very clear about what you can and cannot say. You can't say vagina on tv, but.

You can say vagina now.

You can, but it's just that a lot of places don't. They just recommend. They just don't want you to.

Like when Vagina Monologues came out, they couldn't even say vagina when it came out, like, 25 years ago. So I think you are changing the face of it, and I think you guys are doing great work at Dame Products. They're beautiful products, and they're helping a lot of people. And I really do think that we are in a. You're helping to usher in a new, new era of toys and helping couples with intimacy and women and vulva owners and penis owners.

It feels really. I mean, just even offering a different version of what these tools can be has. Is.

It's really. Yeah. Very innovative. Exciting. Alex, you help me answer some emails from the people.

I would love to.

Okay. We. I love my listeners. Okay. They asked me really good questions, and I'm glad you're here to help. It's. Why do I do. If you want a question answer on the show, you can text ask Emily all one word to 797-979. Fill out the short form. But yes, if you'd like to be called, we do caller shows. They're really fun. Or go to sex with emily.com, click the Ask Emily tab and include your name, your age, where you live, and how you listen to the show. Okay. This is from Laura, 26, in Pennsylvania. Help. I'm that one exception that everybody's scared of. I have herpes. I have outbreaks of genital sores. I got it when I was sexually assaulted. I know this is heavy stuff, so sorry to bring down the mood. I love your show and hope this does not preclude us from being besties. I get it. No one wants to have herpes, and no one wants to have sex with someone with herpes. Oh, and no one wants to discuss rape. How do I tell someone I'm about to have sex with dating my status and not just be someone who never has sex again. Should I just walk around with a sign that says I have herpes? Should I just remove my vagina altogether? Maybe I should become a nun. Oh, Laura, we are still besties. You do not have to stop having sex. Everyone's gonna want to have sex with you at the same rate. I'm telling you, this is not a deal breaker. And I'm glad you wrote because her language. Doesn't your heart go, huh, Babe, you're fine. This happens. What is it? One in four? One in five people?

So a lot of people have herpes. One, which is like cold sores. If you've ever had a cold sore, then you have the virus. A lot of people also have. I think. I think general herpes doesn't necessarily mean that they are having sores. Just, you know, you could have it and it could be dormant in your body. And first, Laura, I think make sure you go to your doctor. There's great medication out there that works really well.

Take a daily suppressant. You take them and you just.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely depends. And some people don't have to take them every day. And it depends on. I believe I actually outbreak.

So I can tell you. So if you have outbreaks, definitely you want to just take them. It's just helpful. But for some people, they might have one outbreak and they'll never have one again.

Yeah.

So it kind of depends on your situation, what strain you have, and to just be safe. But you really. You do have to tell people that you're out if you're having sex with them. If you're not having an outbreak and you're taking the suppressant and you're using protection, you're pretty safe at that point. But I think we all know. Feel like no one's using condoms. People tell you this. Do your friends use condoms? I want you all to use condoms. I feel like I hear this and it's ridiculous because it just takes one time and you can get an std.

But maybe if we just all had herpes, that would be basically do.

I mean, it's happening. But exactly. Then we. Then we'll have other problems.

And There are other STDs that are actually so. I mean, or can have a more negative impact in the quality of your life than herpes. So you know it's not true for all of us.

Right, Exactly. So. But it's not a deal breaker. Your life is not over. It is not a death sentence. You just want to be honest and just say, I want, you know, I have Herpes. I'm taking daily suppressant or whatever method you decide, and I'm using protection. And the chances are, again, you don't know if someone's a carrier or not, but you just have to be honest. Just say if you have any questions. They can ask you questions, but I don't think it's like a babe. I'm so afraid. This is the language. This is what I want to say to you, Laura. This is the language I need you to change here. I need you to change your entire mindset that there's something wrong with you, that you have some scarlet letter that no one's going to want to see, that you're wrong and your life is impacted in the way that you're never gonna have sex again. Like, this is not that. So when you're talking to someone about it, it's more like, I just need you to know, like, it's straightforward. You don't have to keep talking about it for hours. You have to apologize. You don't have to, hey, I have herpes. It's really common. Hopefully you're taking a suppressant and where you use condoms. And I just want you to know.

There'S also some really great people out there that are doing, like, herpes stigma work where they're, you know, I think coming out as having an std. Like, you know, I had hpv. I got hpv. I mean, probably still tormented my system in some way. And I remember, like, just like, the. How hard it was to tell people even that, and how then I kind of got really addicted to telling everybody because I felt like everybody needed to know that.

How is that the hpv? I understand your tattoo. No, just kidding. She doesn't have a tattoo. What if she did that said hpv. That's how upset she was.

No, but I just wanted everybody to know. I know. Don't. I didn't even know it existed. And I didn't know you can get it the ways I had gotten it and all these things. So, you know, I really wanted it. Well, I mean, I got it. Like, I did everything that you were supposed to do. Like, I was dating this guy and we had sex and we used a condom, and I still ended up with hpv.

Well, this can happen. It can happen. Okay, you guys, I just want you to know this comes down to also communication, talking to someone about it. And Laura, get comfortable. You could practice your friends if you're nervous about it. Like, tell your. Your best girlfriends, but once you have this conversation with someone, you're gonna Realize it's just like saying, like, and this is how I need you to touch my clitoris. And I have herpes. And here's how it all goes down. So you're gonna be fine. You will be fine. Okay? No.

And then I went on the. I went on the pill, and then I think that's when I. And then we'd gone. Just the whole thing. I don't remember what happened, but I remember feeling like I did all the things.

But you can't even really know. It could be from.

Because he could have a doorman in his exact body.

So it could be oral sex. It could be from, we don't know, kissing. There's a lot of different ways to get a lot of different things. So just be you guys, go to your doctors. Use protection. All that is important. There's good condoms out there too. You guys, like, if you like, oh, they're uncomfortable. They make sex worse. Like, you can actually. I love skin condoms. Lifestyle.

Share your personal narrative, too. I know it's really hard, but it's so helpful, too, for other people.

People. Well, this is what saying what you just said about once you. You were so scared, and then once you told people, it got a lot easier. You guys, that's how life is. So that's all the things like your secrets. They say this in aa. I'm not sober, but I know. I just love it. I'm like. But sometimes I wish. Because I. I've been to meetings, I think, with friends, whatever. They're like, you're only as sick as your secrets. Meaning, like, the more, like, when you speak your truths and you're really honest, you realize it gives you so much being vulnerable and being open. You'll be shouted from the rooftops that you've harpies.

I mean, I think that's also why I was so, so, so interested in sexuality. Because it was like a truth. And it did seem like something worth talking about that we weren't supposed to talk about. And it was like forced secrets. It was like, you're gonna want to have sex, but you're definitely not supposed to have any of these desires and these feelings. It's like, you know, built. It's like built in secrets of shame that are in you. And I just really wanted to get those out.

Exactly.

I really wanted to talk about it. I was like, I like talking about poop too.

Right? Poop is a huge crowd pleaser.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a lot. I think people feel it's, like, easier talking about poop. We all poop Also, you know, money is another thing that people have.

Money.

And sex and kids and the three things. It's okay to talk about it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's not always easy. We were saying, even in our own relationships or in life, it's not always, but gets you zero over time. Okay. This is from Cecilia. She's 19. Hello, Emily. I wanted to email you because I've been listening for a while and need your help. All caps. I've had sex with two guys and I find that the moment I do, I stop liking them. This is probably because the sex that we have is terrible for both people. I've tried different positions, been encouraging, given and received oral. Maybe it's because we're inexperienced, but whatever I try, I don't end up enjoying it. I find myself craving to have sex with these guys. And then when I do it, all I want to do is stop and do other things. I'm great on my own, but for some reason, when I add someone else, it doesn't work. Am I just really bad at sex? Thanks and love you. Oh, okay. So Cecilia's 19, which I think is amazing that you're emailing and you're listening, so thank you. Because I think at 19, I didn't even know to ask about sex. So I love this and I love that you're experimenting and encouraging and. And know yourself. I mean, that you're whatever. That you're working on yourself. But I don't wanna pathologize you and say that like, you know that there's, like, a problem here at all. I feel like in my mind, you're, like the fact that you. Do you remember those periods when you were dating? You're, like, not into anybody. You're learning yourself.

But I've even had periods, like, with my current partner too, where, like, we'll start having sex and I'll feel. Well, it's a really different issue where it's like, oh, and we're doing the same thing we've done. We did yesterday or like last week. And like, I'll. I will have, like. I've definitely have had feelings where I've been really into it. And then we start having sex or something and, like, I kind of lose it.

Right.

I mean, I definitely feel for me, actually, as I've gotten older and I have more in my mind. Well, that's like, you know, it's just about staying present.

Exactly. It's our mind pulls us out of it.

Yeah.

But I was gonna say that she should. Maybe you need to be Single for a while. Like, take your. Take the pressure off yourself to find the want. Because 19 is a good time to just date around because she said she has sex with them and she doesn't like them or she has sex with them and the sex is bad. So I feel like it would be a good time for her to go out and just start communicating her needs to whoever you're with.

It also, if she's having sex with other 19 year old boys, they're also probably learning. Everybody's learning at the same time and nobody really knows what they're doing. But I think it's really awesome that she's having solo experiences that are enjoyable. That's definitely a really good place to start and to learn about your body so you can have the language to express what you like. And then I would also maybe suggest like playing a slow. I mean, I'm gonna make an assumption. I definitely find that a lot of my partners, they just need to slow down. Just slow down, like touch softer. And this, you know, could be my personal experience.

No, I'm telling you that that's it.

Do some like sensei, like, do like some like meditation and like massage each other and try, you know, maybe like, try creating like a cult, like a game about sensation and play and just, just like closing your eyes and you know, like mindful touching and see where that goes.

I think you're right. Okay. Especially at night with the testosterone at 19. Like, I feel like there's a lot of rushing through it because they're new at it as well. And then we're slowing down.

Every time you see sex too, in the media, it's like goes from like kissing to like heavy petting to pivoting so quickly. And I feel like then that's what you think you want and you're like really into it. And like, I definitely, like, I know Come as yous Are, but Emily Nagasaki.

Nagasaki.

She talks a lot about, about having like these accelerators in your brain and breaks in your brain. And like there's just something that happens and you're like super turned on. And then when you're turned off, you are turned off. So like it's. It's a really natural feeling that you're feeling.

Right. Exactly. And learning how to play with it. And I love the idea of slowing down. I always say to go five times slower than you think or three, five too much because five seems like people really get it. But whatever you're doing right now, I guarantee for men and for women, we can all stand to Just slow down a little and be more mindful. Like you were just saying that you get in your head sometimes. Yeah. You have business. A lot more concerns going on, and I find that, too. And it's funny because even though I'm giving advice all the time, going back to, like, what I do and how my sex life is, I still find that I wander. But what I've learned is this. I can bring myself back. And I'm so. But it took me so long. I mean, really just even. It just doesn't get as far now where I'd be really turned on. And then I'm thinking, like, oh, God, I didn't text this person back. Right. Right now I can't have sex. And then it's really a choice in that moment to say, I'm gonna. But I'm gonna let that go. I'm go back into my body. I'm gonna slow it down, go back to kissing. Like, at any moment. What I want, like, what I want, Cecilia to learn and everyone to learn is that at any moment, you have the choice to stop that train of sex, like, if it's going too fast or if it's. You're not feeling it, and to just go back to the basics, the kissing, the touching, and then rebuild again.

Definitely to rebuild again.

Rebuild it again. Bring it back up again. Okay, so thank you, Cecilia, for that question. All right, that is our last email. Alexandra Fine from Dame Products. I'm so excited to see you here in California. Congratulations on all of your success. Everyone can check you out. Dame Products.

Afine human on Instagram.

Yeah.

And Dame Products on Instagram and Twitter and anything else you want to say. Any last words. Everyone can check them out. They're great products you can wear. I love. I mean, you can wear them during sex. Yeah, wear them.

They're great. There's like, fin is like a no grip handheld vibrator. And even wearable, it stays in place. We also have a pretty cool return policy, which is, like, really unique in this space. Yeah. We just want people to be happy and enjoy and feel like they can take a risk just like any other product.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

You're doing a good job. Thank you. Thank you, Ani. Okay, thanks, everyone. Thank you for listening. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Sarah, producer, Jamie and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com.

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