Why I Opened My Marriage After 20 Years

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Emily our cultural narrative is wrong because monogamy is really a much, much tighter shoe for women. And I found that also, you know, anecdotally among men and women that I interviewed. So yeah, there's a lot of our beliefs about sexuality, especially the gender difference.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. I'm joined today by cultural anthropologist Dr. Wednesday Martin, who's here to talk about non monogamy. We talk about what the research actually shows about female desire in long term relationships. How to navigate opening up your partnership with intention and clear rules. And what it looks like when you decide traditional monogamy isn't the only way to build a life together. This episode is about expanding what's possible, understanding your options and making choices that honor your truth, not just what you've been told you should want. If you've ever been curious about this path, stay right here and let's get into it.

Before we get into this amazing interview with Wednesday, I want to share some rules that she actually put in place in her relationship when it became non monogamous. We didn't get to this in the episode, but I wanted to share it with you now.

So number one was no kissing. She said that fell by the wayside.

After a few months.

Which by the way, just so you know, it's good to have some rules when you start.

But the couples who are successful in opening up a relationships often adapt and.

Change the rules as they go.

Okay.

Her second one was condoms and she.

Says we've always stuck to that.

Number three, sex only, no feels, so no feelings.

And she said that fell by the wayside pretty quickly too.

Number four was in our house is okay, but not in our bed. Number five, always check in and keep the other informed. So check in with each other how it's going, maybe after the date or.

Maybe like in the middle of the.

Date or the next morning.

Just keep checking in and stay in contact.

Number six was do whatever I want without checking in or permission while traveling.

So traveling they were able to do what they want to do. So those are her rules.

She wanted to share.

Also, we're going to have some great resources on this topic which we will include in the show notes. So please check those out.

Dr. Wednesday Martin is a social scientist with a background in anthropology and primatology, a feminist cultural critic and number one New York Times best selling author who focuses on gender, motherhood, parenting and female sexuality. She is the author of why Nearly Everything We Believe About Women, Lust and Infidelity Is Wrong and How the New.

Science Can Set Us Free.

She's currently working on a book about sexual autonomy and women in their 50s. Find more wednesdaymartin.com on Twitter @wednesdaymartin or.

On Instagram wednesdaymartin, Ph.D. i have so many questions for you that I realize that so many people now are interested in actually alternative relationships.

Yeah.

And they believe that it's just for, you know, certain types of people and they have all these, it's all, all these judgments around it or beliefs around it.

Yeah.

Untrue.

Yeah. There's a lot of misunderstood. First of all, you're right. I moved to LA in December of 2020 with my whole family. We came for the holiday and then the holiday was over. And I had always wanted to live in la, but I had stayed in New York for the sake of my career, for the sake of my family, for the sake of my marriage, for the sake of appearances. And during COVID we came here, like I said, for the winter holiday and my family was going back and my husband said I know you want to stay. Why don't you just stay? And we first thought I would stay for a month or whatever and I've been here for a year and a half. So when you and I first met up in la, I was at the beginning of being in what some people I know call a partnership. You and your partner are partners, but you live apart. And then some people call it living apart together latrs, living apart together relationships. So, yeah, when you and I first met, I was at the beginning of that journey of being in a living apart together relationship or in a partnership after basically 20 years of a very traditional marriage. And then what I've never talked about, ever. This is the first time I've ever spoken publicly about being in an openly non monogamous marriage, which is something that we started in 2019, I believe.

I'd love to know about your journey into anatomy. What sparked it, how it evolved. I think it'd be so helpful for everybody.

How did you. Yeah, sure, I'm always happy to talk about the personal in order to kind of illustrate the data or to be an n of 1, especially when there are a lot of data to go alongside of it. But yeah, like I said, I never have spoken about this publicly, ever. Of course I would do it on your podcast first. This would be the place to do it because you're such a great interviewer and you're so compassionate and curious about where people's desires take them and how sexuality and relationships are just a total adventure. So thank you for having me on to talk about it, first of all. And yeah, what I would say say is that I was in a very traditional, exclusive marriage for the better part of two decades. It really suited me. I started writing my book on true and I started reviewing the data about just what happens in relationships over time and how desire among men, if you're in a heterosexual couple, tends to ebb more slowly and female desire, you know, tends to drop.

I don't want to skate over that real quickly because I know that was one of the main points in your book that I thought was like a, like a huge myth. We often believe that it's the other way around.

So what we know from numerous well designed longitudinal studies, two German studies studied by Kristen Mark in the United States, a very comprehensive study by Cynthia Graham in the uk, an important study by a Finnish sex researcher named Annika Gunston in Finland, obviously I said, she's finished. And what these studies find over and over and in some, you know, these studies looked at the Experiences of tens of thousands of people across a broad range of ages. And they found a very interesting fact about what happens to desire and long term exclusive cohabiting relationships. Okay, Living together. What happens in those relationships, they found, is that contrary to everything we've been taught, guys, desire in a heterosexual, exclusive cohabiting relationship will stay pretty steady. It'll ebb slowly over the course of 9 to 12 years. Whereas for women, it's very, very normal for straight women in cohabiting exclusive relationships to experience a steep drop in desire in years one to four. Now this is what led so many people that I interviewed for my book on True to Tell me. So many experts said to me our cultural narrative is wrong because monogamy is really a much, much tighter shoe for women. And I found that also, you know, anecdotally among men and women that I interviewed. So, yeah, there's a lot of our beliefs about sexuality, especially the gender difference. Yeah, they're myths. Right?

Like the book, talking about alternatives, like, what do we do? What do we do then?

Yes, exactly. So what are the solutions to that? Right. One of the things is that women end up doing is they end up having something called service sex. Right. They have this 100% normal drop in desire for their long term partner within years one to four. And literally every woman that I interviewed from for Untrue reported that. And then so they say, well, but I know that sex is good for my marriage, for my partnership, for whatever, so let me keep having it. And we call it service sex because it's sexual. That women are having a long term, exclusive cohabiting partnerships in service of their marriages, in service of their partners, in service of the social contract that tells them that you have to keep having sex even if you don't want it. It's like going to the gym. Once you get there, you'll enjoy it, blah, blah, blah, all the things we say. So they end up having service sex, which isn't pleasurable and what we really want to do. And I think I can speak for both of us, I think we're both on a mission or for women and men alike to be having less service sex and to be having more of the kind of sex that they find pleasurable and exciting and, you know, to facilitate conversations and about alternatives. Exactly. Exactly what you said. So I would say to people who came to me after a lecture about untrue or tough or whatever, a salon that I did, they would say, yeah, but what can we do, right? There are so many options on the table. Not Everybody's going to want to open up their relationship. You know, we know that one of the things that women really need is they really have an evolved appetite for sexual variety and novelty. And if they don't get it, they shut down and start doing service X and think they don't like sex. But it's really just that they don't like having sex with the same person over and over and over and over again after one to four years. So just mix it up a little bit, even though we're told that it's mental.

But I'm also thinking a partner who knows this going into it could also say, okay, we know this is going to happen. What can we do?

This is. This isn't a catastrophe. Nobody's to blame. Do you know how many people. I know. I know so many people who blow up their marriages because after years one to four, the woman being a normal human woman is like, you know, in the aggregate. Right. We're. Because that's what we do in social science. We talk about in the aggregate. Most people, there are exceptions, but so many people blow up their marriages, they get divorces. They just so they can have sex with new people, just so they can be into sex again. And so I'm on a real mission for people, helping people understand, like, you can have exciting sex again. You just have to find out ways to engineer novelty and variety and excitement. And that might mean remaining monogamous and it might mean something else, but there are. There are tons of options.

What we're saying here is what he's going to talk to us about is just how you kind of came to this and what it looks like. Because.

Yeah.

Which we're also going to get into and define whether it's open or swinging there. There's just so many different ways to kind of find that variety and also a lot of these enhanced intimacy. But just to swing, to close this loop about the. What you're going to want to. For. For a moment, what you can do if you're like, we're. I want to be monogamous. I just want that desert of sex day with my partner. Well, then it's all the things that I talk about. Wendy talks about on the show all the time is the more you communicate about your sex life and you start to say, like, let's keep doing things that turns us both on. Whether it's going deeper into our fantasies, deeper into tantric sex, trying new, even lube could be a variety one night. Yeah. Things that couples just get into this rote Pattern of sex that's going to get dull. So you can't keep it interesting that way. And a lot of couples, you know, I think might think like, well, I want to have sex with other people and I'm attracted to, but oh my God, how would you open it? It seems so crazy. No one ever going to work for anybody.

Everybody I know who opened up their relationship successfully said at the beginning, oh no, I could never do that. And I count myself among those people. Just to get back to your point, like I love your point. I wouldn't want anybody to think that because I'm in an open marriage that I'm advocating for it for other people. I just want people to have a lot of options on the table. And I love what you said. So many things you can do, lube a new lube a new sex toy, watching porn together, going to a sex party, but not participating, right? There's so many things that you can do to get variety and novelty and excitement into a long term relationship. And I love that you talked about it. For me personally, the decision eventually became to transition from a really traditional relationship container of monogamous marriage to an open marriage. At first it just seemed like a solution to a problem, you know, But I realized eventually that it was a lot more than that. Once this decision was on the table, it requires so much talking and communicating. I remember I interviewed Carrie Jenkins who is this philosophy professor in British Columbia. She is a genius and she wrote a book called what Love Is and what It Could Be. And she came out publicly in this book and it's a book of philosophy about attachment and love and connection and all those profound things. But in it she writes about having a husband and a serious boyfriend. And she got a lot of flack for it. It's a beautiful book, what love is and what it could be. But one of the things that I thought was so funny when I interviewed her is she said, you know, when people think of open relationships or non monogamy, what they usually think of is, oh wow, wild stuff, sex and sex and sex and more sex. And sure, there can be plenty of that. But what she said, she said what I found to be the case, which is what people don't talk about as much is that in an open monogamy relationship container, those people who are primary, if that's your relationship structure, where there's a primary relationship, you are going to do a lot of talking and then you're going to do like a lot of, if you're a poly person, you're going to do, like, a lot of Google calendars and a lot of scheduling.

And so the practical aspects of it are hugely important, like. Like, communication and scheduling. But I can tell you that in the beginning of deciding to be in an open marriage for us, there were many, many, many conversations, and there needed to be. Yeah, we have to talk about how would we feel about stigma, you know, that we would encounter, you know, how do we keep this private? How do we protect the primacy of our relationship, which was really important and is really important to us. How do we communicate with the people with whom we have adventures? And then people do things like, do they want to adventure together? Do they want to adventure separately? What are the rules? A lot of people.

Including me, felt strongly about rules like the following. Nobody who's a friend or in our social circle, nobody that we work with for a long time. We agreed to just be very quiet about it for personal and professional reasons. You know, some people are very judgmental. You can be quiet about things without being ashamed of them. You can just be quiet in a pragmatic way. Some of our other rules were. And some of the other rules I've heard that people have were like, how many times you could be with this person. Is it going to be purely sexual? Or are you going to open the door to feelings? Are you going to be more of an open model or a poly model or a swinging model? So we had to have all those conversations, and believe me, they were exhausting. But that's when you're talking about rules, you're talking about feelings. And your partner might be like, what? Why do we need that rule? That rules dumb. And you might be like, what? I don't care about if we know them or not. Why do we have to have that rul. And then it's a negotiation and a conversation. Oh, my God. If you open your relationship, you are going to get to know your primary partner, if that's your thing. So, so, so, so.

Well.

You guys did it for a lot. It sounds like you exhaustively went through, like, you were not frivolous, because that's what I advise against couples. You're like, well, sex hasn't been great. We want to spice up. Let's go open, or let's be open. Let's go swing for a night. So maybe we should take a minute before we go into your story. How do we define, like, the terminology? Like swing?

Yeah. This is so important, right?

Versus people. Like, what does it mean?

Like, yeah, okay. This is so important to know your vocabulary words Which I didn't know, except that I had written on true. Otherwise I wouldn't have known my vocabulary words. So, okay, a lot of people use the term consensual non monogamy. I don't use that term. I just say non monogamy. It can have open non monogamy or the kind of non monogamy that's on the DL. So obviously today we're talking about forms of open non monogamy. I got that term from Tammy Nelson, one of our favorite sex researchers who writes a lot about non monogamy. And personally, I don't like the term consensual non monogamy. And as you can imagine, as an anthropologist, I hate the term ethical non monogamy. Like, just because you live in Brooklyn and lots of people are non monogamous, that doesn't make you more ethical than a woman who's doing it on the DL, right? Because she's in a really bad situation and she wants to get out and the only way she can do it, maybe economically, is to bridge to another partner. Nobody's. What I. So I don't say ethical or consensual. I'm just going to call it open non monogamy. Now, there are different forms of open non monogamy. There's swinging, which kind of gets such a bad rap. You know, like we think of the 70s and swingers and like, I don't know, the ice storm or people in bad clothes, whatever. So swingers are. And I, by the way, I love swingers. I love their personalities. I've interviewed many people into swinging and I've never liked a group of people more than I like swingers, although swinging's not for me. But swingers do this cool thing where the couple is pretty primary and then they adventured, usually together, primary really quickly.

That primary means like you are married.

And you're committ or you're, you're committed.

To somebody that's your primary, that's your primary partner. And everyone else is like secondary third, like first year.

Yeah, whatever. Thanks for pointing that out. That's really important. So if you're a swinger, here's the awesome thing about swingers. I remember I was invited to be a speaker at a swingers convention in New Orleans. I didn't end up doing it. There was a hurricane or something, sadly. But like, swingers have conventions, they go on cruises, they have swinger parties. They have a real sense of community and the couples are usually pretty bonded with each other and really good communicators. So that's what swinging is.

They meet somebody for a night, they go to a party, they hook up with someone else, and they go home and sleep in their beds together. Like, it's pretty much.

That is a really good description of swinging and swingers. And I think the really important thing to understand is that they have clubs, they go on cruises, they go to conferences. They have a real sense of community.

Yes.

It's like, almost like their entertainment, or there's something for the night, but they don't. It's not ongoing.

Yes. Right. Sometimes it could be ongoing. And sometimes swinger couples will, like, connect with each other and do, like, a swapping thing, like a spousal swapping thing, and stick together for a while and enjoy that and then kind of move on. Or sometimes they might have a rule that they only do it, you know, some other way. Okay. So that's swinging. And then there's this other thing called an open relationship. And the way it was described to me is that open is kind. The other kind of openly monogamous relationship is what we might call an open marriage or an open relationship. And that's kind of a misnomer because it's sort of like a lot of times people in open relationships, it could be don't ask, don't tell.

It could be that we do threesomes together and nothing else. But usually an open relationship means that the primary. There are primaries, and that they go off and have their adventures separately, and then they come back together. They might talk about it, they might not. It's all disclosed. But there might be degrees of disclosure and concepts of privacy and more kind of like don't ask, don't tell, or. Yeah, if you ask me, I'll tell you. So that's the way that those relationships go. Then there's polyamory. And I always say poly people. I love them and their chaos. I love these people. So poly people might not even have. And I mean that in a totally positive way. But I just said people who are polyamorous might not even have a primary partnership. Right. They might do a thing where there are three people in a relationship. They might live together or not. It's all equal. There's no hierarchy. There's not like the couples here, and here's the guest over here. It's like, no, we're in this. Like, this is our relationship. Right. And that's a form of being polyamorous.

Three fingers. But like a throuple kind of thing could be that, too. Or just in general.

Yeah. Thruffle. A Quad. And also, the important thing about polyamory to understand is it means an open relationship or swinging. You know, swinging is pretty much just sexual. Although swingers become very friendly with each other. An open relationship is mostly like, I'm off doing my thing, you're off doing your thing. We'll talk about it. Or not. Polyamory is more like, not only are we doing a sexual thing, but we're doing a romantic thing and we're getting into feelings and connection in a relationship with another person or with other people. So that's the easiest way I can describe the. Describe it. And then there are other subcategories. There's hot wiping, there's the cuckold lifestyle. Those are the main flavors.

So where would you say you're in, then? You're in non monogamy.

Yeah, open. Non monogamy and an open marriage. That's right. And that's what I've been doing. Yeah. For the better part of at least three years, maybe a little more. And. Yeah. And like I said, the beginning of that, I don't think people get it. I don't think people know how good you have to be at talking to each other and how good you have to become at talking to each other. I mean, there was so much talking, I couldn't believe it. Sometimes I would say, I can't talk anymore. But it was really important because we had to set up those rules. Right. That we both agreed on. We had to have the conversations about, like, why do you want that rule? Like, why is that even an issue? You have to be respectful. Right.

It sounds like you guys have done it in a really healthy way and you're constantly learning and evolving. Another question, though, is like, so what was the point when it got to. In your relationship? You said when you first thought about it, you thought, well, this can never be me. I'll never do it.

Yeah, exactly. I was like, no way. I was like, I want to have adventures, but I don't want him to. Exactly.

Because that's the thing.

Most people go, I wouldn't want that.

I mean, I want that exactly.

Like, it's okay for me to do it, but, like, I don't want them to do it. Yeah. I was one of those people who was like, well, I could handle me doing it and I would know that I could trust myself. But that's. And that's really a lot about trust. Right. When you say that, it's a lot about, like, I don't know if it's so much about imagining that you're super jealous. It's more about.

Could you trust your primary partner. And that's why there have to be. And thank God, most people, a lot of people who do this have really deep conversations first because that all this negotiating about rules and how do we feel about this and do we really want to do it. You're honing your communication skills and you are going to need those if you don't want to wind up divorced, beside yourself, angry, broken up. Part of the beauty of open marriage for me has been a couple things. Communication really upping my communication skills, not just in my marriage, but in general in the world. I got a lot of communication skills being in an open marriage that I use every day in my life, in my work in, when I interview people. Just like I had to develop a lot of communications because a lot of empathy, being able to see somebody else's point of view, not just my, not just my long term partner, but like my fun time, open relationship partner. Right. You have to be seeing things from multiple points of view. And that's helped me in all kinds of ways that skill. The other thing I think is really important for people to know other than that they're going to work on communication a lot is like you could become much, much closer to your partner for this. And here's another equally important thing that would be despite all the judgment and stigma because there's still a lot of.

That from the outside world. You mean.

Yeah, of you.

You actually do get closer if you are able to get to that point, which is what the thing we talk about is. Couples get to a place of conversion is the term that we use where you actually have this great deep love and connection for your partner. Tell me how you, you would define it, but you actually have great pleasure and satisfaction knowing that your partner is getting their needs met in a beautiful consensual way. You actually can feel that love and appreciation for them, which sort of trump's any insecurity and jealousy, although it still rears its head.

I'm so glad that you talked about conversion because when I was writing on True, I remember I was doing something interviewing somebody and I didn't know what conversion was and I needed it explained to me. And so sometimes conversion is sexual that some people report being really, really excited by seeing their partner get sexual pleasure from somebody else or by hearing about it or just by thinking about about it. And then there's, I mean you could also say that conversion is more about before I talked about developing empathy, developing really good communication skills. Because we had to talk about everything. And then empathy for other people's. How other people would be experiencing this and were experiencing this. And so, you know, yes, conversion is not always sexual in my understanding of it. Conversion can be that somebody's really happy for his husband, that his husband is off having a really fun adventure and having a good time instead of just going crazy and tearing his hair out about what's going on right now. Right.

Because it shouldn't be exactly. Like, if you're in a place right now where. And I get a lot. We're actually going to get in some questions in a bit from listeners. I think you'd be. So I'd love your help, but that's it. They're like, I. My partner wants me to do it. I'm not sure that I want to do it. Like, this is not something that you talk a partner into. You have to both be wholly on board with it, like, fully communicate. So then this is what it sounds like that you did. And so you got to a point where you're like, okay, so you got beyond that part of like, oh, we could never do it. Because once you and your partner sort of talk about, well, what would this look like? You communicated, and then you were able to go out there and find a new partner. And how did that happen?

What was it? Right. Apps.

Apps.

The apps. Because. Because I. There was. I mean, we had a rule, right? It wasn't going to be anybody in our social lives. It would be, obviously, you're not. We had our rules and our boundaries, and that meant people that we didn't know. So apps, dating apps were a really helpful ecology for me in finding partners. And, you know, we talk about the. The downside of apps a lot, and there are downsides, but the upside for me as a woman in an open marriage was that I could be very, very clear about what I was looking for. I could change it over time. I could be very direct. And eventually I learned that some apps are better for this than others. Right?

Okay.

So, like, some of them, some apps I would go on, and people wouldn't even know what an open marriage was.

Oh, and you're like, I don't got time for that.

Or like, for example, like a Tinder. Right? A Tinder would be maybe. I mean, there were. You can find anybody anywhere. But like, on Tinder, I more tended to.

Match with people who just thought, okay, well, this means just hooking up, right? Or but on someplace like, say, field. Right. Field is an app where people go to find a Third, or to find a Zaddy or a daddy or a sugar daddy or people go to find a sub, right. Or a Dom. So, so I very quickly learned that these apps were very different ecologies and that people had different levels of awareness about my relationship container on the different apps. And some apps were better than others. So for sure, though, I was on apps. And then like a lot of women, I had to screen for my safety, right? Yeah, my emotional safety, but my physical safety. And I mean, everybody has to screen for their physical safety when they want to be with people on apps. And I can say that for me, you know, initially, when I was a person who had been married for the better part of two decades, and then I, we, we opened things up for me initially, it was really about experiencing that variety and novelty and adventure and excitement in the initial phase. Eventually I was looking for forms of connection, especially when I was in LA on my own, in a partnership. I was looking for people who would understand that I was in a the partnership, who would understand, like, I'm not looking to get divorced, I'm not. Right. And so. And then I noticed that people in different demographics had different understandings. Right. Like if I were dating guys close to me in age or maybe older than I was, often these straight guys had very traditional expectations and they kind of couldn't wrap their mind around what it meant that I was in an open marriage and that my marriage was my top priority. Whereas younger people seemed to really understand it. And that's borne out in the data. We have data that show us that younger people, gay men and people in sexual and racial minorities, a lot of people who've been on the wrong side of power, really understand.

These alternative relationship forms more, more readily. We need more studies about exactly why that is. But yeah, so that was part of. You asked how I started to do it, I went on apps. And then, because I'm a social scientist, as I was on the apps, I was kind of like gathering information almost. And I was researching, looking at all the data that's out there. Amy Morris is one of my favorite, favorite sex researchers. And basically, if there's anything out there about open non monogamy, any study, Amy Morris and Helen Connolly probably have their names on it. I read a lot of her work. So for me, once I was in an open marriage and also in a partnership, there was a shift I was more looking for. And it was during COVID Right. So I was lonely, so. So I wasn't just looking for people to have variety and novelty and exciting adventures. With. I was looking for people to go for a walk with, you know, to have.

Like to meet up, you know, for. I don't drink, but like for a drink. I was looking for company more on the apps at that point and a lot. And what was interesting was that during COVID a lot of people were doing that.

Yeah.

So that's kind of how it shifted, both because I went from living together to being in a partnership to being on lockdown. And I think that just shows how flexible our sexual and social strategies are. Right. As Homo sapiens, because that's my. How I see the world.

Yeah.

I think my own personal experience kind of demonstrates that we evolved as super.

Flexible sexual strategists and social strategists, and we still have that software in there. And I would say that in practical terms, for people who want to open, just expect it to change over time.

When we come back, more with Wednesday Martin.

So, meaning even your openness is going to change, like just because you're open. That's constantly changing as well.

Yeah. You might want to close. I mean, I know people who are open and they. Then they close up. Like, I. I knew a couple who was very committed to being open and having fun adventures. And.

They. Then somebody's parent got sick and they had to nurture their parent, you know, and take care of them when they were very, very ill and died. And so a lot of couples then decide, you know, we're going to close for this. We're in the stressful time. I've known people who are open and they have a baby and they decide, you know what, we're going to close for three years, not even discuss it, and then we'll discuss it again in three years. So it's, it's a myth that once you open all the hits the fan and things are terrible, or that when you open, you're going to be open forever. Things change. You can have a flexible mindset. You evolved to have a flexible mindset about sex and relationships. So go ahead and do it.

Yeah, exactly. We have evolved in that way. And finally talk a lot about, in a lot of your work that we have evolved. Like, these are our primates, our species. Right. We are not.

Right. There are no social primate species that are monogamous. But that doesn't mean that some of us don't like it a lot and can't enjoy it.

We're giving people like. I guess that's why I love that you're here. Thank you for actually talking about it for the first time openly Because I think that that's what I hear from people a lot. They just think it's so this extreme. Like you're open and then once you're open and just like you just mentioned the majority of my friends who are in what I would say healthy non monogamous relationships, it has changed over time. Like they're just tired sometimes. Like we did it for months, but now we're moving homes or now we're feeling that we both want to spend more time together and then they decide to open it up again. And this time it might be more of a swinging thing or more of like a one night thing.

Exactly.

The language.

Like you get to decide kind of like you evolve like your workout routine over time too. Right.

I love that analogy that we're changeable. So of course our sexuality and our sexual strategies and our sexual desires are going to change. And so yeah, I just always want people to know that opening doesn't mean opening forever.

So you found new partners. And at the beginning, so just to say like the different stages you went through, at the beginning it was about sex because it was novel. You'd been with one person for a long time. So it's kind of like, like I can't imagine what that would be like to be with one person all these years, 20 years and then to all of a sudden you could do someone else. Like that's a thrill. That's exciting thing.

Yes. And a lot of people just stop their thinking about open relationships there. Like that'll be so awesome. And that is, I mean it's wonderful. Like women haven't evolved in on true. I really get into why women have this evolved appetite probably even more than men in the aggregate for variety and novelty and excitement and adventure sexually. And it was fun to get that. We also have. I should also mention that there are studies that show that women who sort of habituate to sexual stimulus more quickly over time. Right. One to four years is a opposed to nine to 12. Why some of them might do better and have a real yen for non monogamy even when their partners don't. Amy Moore, our wonderful sex researcher who's into studying non monogamy. In 2014 she co authored a study and one thing they found is that people with avoidant attachment styles.

Tended to report interest in open non monogamy more than other people. And they found that people with secure attachment styles tended to do pretty well with it. And so did people with avoidant attachment style. This 2014 study that Amy Moore did kind of just confirms what you might suspect, which is that people with anxious attachment styles.

Had more negative attitudes about open non monogamy and found it more difficult when they did it. And in that same study, Moores and her colleagues found that what they wrote was, some evidence suggests that women may prefer open non monogamy more than men because women, but not men, habituate to sexual stimuli over time and more quickly. So there's a counterintuitive finding. But yeah, we do know that if you have a pretty secure attachment style.

Or a slightly avoidant one, you might have an easier time in an open relationship type of container, whether it's poly swinging.

Hot wiping, you'd be like, oh.

You'Re with somebody else. It would just be hard. All this upper right.

Yeah. Just imagine doing something that goes against the grain of your being. You're like, I need you to text me.

Be connected, you know, all around.

Yeah.

And you don't have time. So then, so it sounds like you kind of evolve this in like a really healthy way. Like you continue to talk about with your partner, issue with your primary partner as you move through all of these stages in it. So like, what are some of the challenges you've had now, would you say? Or what are the biggest challenges for you or what people should avoid when. Well, we rather like not talk. I think what we've established is that you have to talk about it. Don't do it as something that's to. Going, going to. You think it's going to spice up your sex life. Anything else that you keep.

Yeah, for sure. I would say, I mean, because of my background, I always say, well, use the data to help you make better decisions. So like, for example, we know that there are people who, I mean, in my own experience there, there are some men who have been total dicks about this. Right. They think it means I just want to hook up, I'm just lying if whatever. And then some of them, they're not being dicks, they just don't understand. I would say that based on data, what we know is that younger people, people who identify as bisexual or gay.

These are people who have more of a familiarity with non monogamy. So, you know, I would personally, you know, want to be with somebody in one of those communities because I don't want to have to educate my sexual partner or my partner about what this is. I don't want to have to take them through it. I want them to have a familiarity with it and to be from a culture like for example, younger people, where it's not stigmatized I don't want to be with somebody from a culture where like it's a totally stigmatized thing and they think there's something wrong with me and I must be mentally ill. Right. So the first thing I would say is I would look, I would look at communities where there's support for this idea. Why, why beat your head up against a rock? I would also have people know. I think it's really important. This is another data based insight for people who want to do this to help them actually do.

Really helps to know about the prevalence of open non monogamy in the United States. And Amy Morse once again, along with Helen Fisher and my friend Justin Garcia, who's the director of the Kinsey Institute, they all did a study. It was great. It was one of these massive representative sample studies. Over 8,700 people. They were crunching census data that was nationally representative sample. I mean it was a great, great study. And they found that over 20% of people reported that they had been in an openly non monogamous relationship at some point. Right. So don't, don't let anybody make you feel like, oh, you are a freak show if you want to do this. Right. It's, there's a. And then they did another study, Amy Morris did another study about polyamory specifically and she found that like there was a high level of people, like almost 17% of people in this, again, like a great representative, huge sample that almost 17% of people reported a desire to be poly. One in nine people have engaged in a poly relationship at some point in their life. So just know that you're not a free and it's not that weird. And thankfully now we have like TV shows and stuff, scripted series. It's supporting people in doing it. So I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the data so you don't feel too weird looking for a person who understands what it is and you don't have to educate them and you don't have to deal with them stigmatizing you. And then I would just.

I would say that if you want to be open, you have to be open minded that things might not always go the way you want. You might start out by saying, okay, we're only going to have sexual relationships with people, we're only going to see them once. And then you might really connect with somebody and want to see them 10 times. And then you have to go back and negotiate. Right. I hear this all the time from people. And so if you're in an open relationship, in all relationships, the ground is always moving beneath your feet. But in an open relationship, the ground might be moving more and might be moving faster, and you just have to be ready for that. And one of the best ways to do it is to work on your communication skills.

It's so true.

Do not, I mean, do not assume that, you know, if you have a primary partner. Don't assume that you know what they want. Ask them. Don't assume that something would be okay. Ask them. If you need a rule redefined, A really common rule is like, well, when you're traveling, do whatever you want, right? But then some people are like, you know what? When you're traveling and we have this rule, I'm just so upset about what you might be doing. I need to change the rule. Or when you're traveling, do what you want. But, like, let's have a check in every day, right? And then I would say the other thing that people really think fear is that if they have a primary, they really fear that their primary is going to fall in love with somebody and leave them.

That's it.

Well, guess what? They might happens.

You hear those stories.

I mean, that might happen if you're monogamous.

That's true.

Well, why?

The question for us, this ties into the one thing you just said is that, yes, that is a big pill. Like, well, what if my partner runs off with a person? That can happen. We've heard that this happens. But what about also the notion that it is when we set up rules sometimes, like, well, let's just do it for sex. We're not going to catch feelings. We're not going to, you know, develop emotions and connect with this person. But how do you avoid that?

Guess what? You can either just cut it off like a brittle branch and say, well, or you can say, okay, this is a conversation to have with my primary partner, or this is a conversation to have with myself, or this is a conversation to have with my. My partner in adventure. Yeah. Relational risk is real. It's real if you're monogamous, and it's real if you're open. And I think that open people. The only difference between us and people who aren't open is that we have, like, made a bargain and explicit. We have had an explicit conversation with ourselves about how real relational risk is. And my marriage has never felt more precious to me. This is.

Next question was like, how has it been going?

I only speak for myself. My husband and I are both really private. What I can tell you is that for me, having the support of my primary partner has meant a lot to me, revisiting our guidelines, letting him know what's going on with me. You know, I have never valued that partnership more than I do now. And also, you know, our communication just got so much better. I mean, imagine going from a place in a long term exclusive relationship where you can't even talk about the possibility of maybe having an adventure with somebody else to granting permission, if you will, and support and care. A lot of people report, oh, it's a whole new phase in a marriage. And I have found that to be the case. I for sure have.

And I reinvigorates it then again too. Right. Because you guys are.

To me. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's been an enhancement of my marriage. It's definitely different than the way my marriage was before. Marriages change, relationships change, change, people change, Everything changes.

For sure. How has it been with your partner, your primary partner, talking about, like, do you. Is your role to share what happens or not? Like, how much do you talk about.

I think we're very typical. I can say I'm very typical of a person in an open relationship versus a poly relationship. You know, I haven't introduced anybody to my partner. Partner that wouldn't be comfortable in terms of our understanding that we are primary. There is that open model where it's like, just go do your thing, we'll go do our thing. And our relationship is primary. So that's pretty much okay. How it's been. I can say that I have felt great comfort in having a partner when I've had a breakup.

Breakup with him.

With one of your partners. You're one of your new.

Because there's been.

He's nursing you. He helped you through a breakup. Which I think is a beautiful.

I mean, it's really blow people's minds. A lot of people would not think that. I want people to consider that it's possible that they could, you know, be in some kind of open relationship container, whatever it is. And breakups happen. Hurt feelings happen. Consider the possibility that when somebody that you're having sex with hurts your feelings or somebody some people get into relationships with. So somebody you're having a relationship with that really hurts your feelings and you're beside yourself. Consider the possibility that like your spouse or your primary partner could be just a really wonderful source of support for you.

Beautiful thing I love.

Weird but true.

So what's next for your open relationship? Where do you think it's going to go from here and what do you.

What a great question. I mean, I think that what for sure is on the horizon is a lot more checking in. Things are going to change a little bit because I will be less in a living apart together relationship and more in a living together relationship. So that'll be interesting. You know, as my husband and I are physically together more, I think that a lot of people who are coupled might think, oh, like I, I like living with my partner for myself. Personally, what I can say about myself is I have really loved the adventure of moving to LA on my own, making all new friendships, learning all about a new city, struggling with loneliness, but enjoying connection in all its many different forms. And so it's going to be a real change for me and my husband to have a lot of day to day time together. We're always together on holidays and we travel back and forth to see each other. It'll be an interesting new phase, having been in a living apart together thing, to now live together a little bit. You know what else is in the future, Emily? Being open to anything. I lived in New York for 33 years. It is a culture of planning out every single thing in your life. And when I really, as I moved into my 50s, I realized that I wanted to say no to more things that I didn't want to do. I wanted to say yes to more things that I did want to do and that that was changing all the time. So I think what's on the horizon in terms of my open marriage, it's is what's on the horizon for me in general, which is more autonomy, you know, enhancing my connections with other people, enhancing my connection with my husband, enhancing my connection with my friends. It's not for everybody. I'm not advocating that other people do it. But opening my relationship has made me learn to think in new ways and communicate in new ways that really, truly is enriching my ability to connect with people.

Whether it's professionally, as friends, as lovers, as people I go for hikes with, you know. And the other thing that's on the horizon is selling my new book called Free Agent, which is about women in their 50s, kind of seizing agency, kind of rewriting our cultural narrative of who women in their 50s are. Because I see women in their 50s as just dazzlingly daring and brave and making big changes in their lives as opposed to what we're told about them, which is like, oh, well, when you go through menopause, you're irrelevant, dead, and you don't matter anymore. So this book is coming out and this book is very personal. And so I'll be going public in an even bigger way about being in an open marriage. And so that's on the horizon as well. And my husband and I will deal with that.

Well, thank you for too because just, you know, Wednesday and our dear friends are spending so much time together, which I cherish and I know that the book has even come out yet, which we're all dying to read. But for you just to be open and share this because I am getting so much interest from my listeners, my callers who are like, I want to be open and what do I do? And does it work? Here's a question so I'd love you to answer. Help me answer this question Wednesday. Then we're going to get into a few more things, but let's just ask this question. Johnny 56 in Idaho. Hey, Dr. Emily. In the last four to five years, my marriage has lost its intimacy. My wife is pretty much zero interest. I've tried to get her interested again and have been pretty patient. I've learned to have some pretty good sex by myself over the years. I've expressed my interest to her about trying swinging threesomes and group sex and exploring bisexual curiosities. She's always said, with the right people and the mood was right. I hate to pressure about sex. As in the past. I've had partners that have commented, is that all you could think about? She mentioned in the past I should get a girlfriend to keep me sexually satisfied. But I always blew it off and said I didn't want that. I want to be with her, but for the past year we've not been together. She took another job. She said she's been thinking about it. If I'm okay with her pursuing her career, she won't hold me back from experience. Things that I want to do. We've got five rules. No one she knew. No one from the town I reside in, not in our bed. Practice safe sex and don't fall in love. It blew me away. I didn't know to believe her or some sort of trick. Said she was dead serious and I should get to experience those things. So here's my question. I would like to experience those things, but assume if she, if, if I did, she would be involved.

Okay. First thing I want to say to this guy is, wow, you lucked out with this partner because this is a generous offer and so just be grateful for that. Step number one, like, how close do you feel to your partner and how much do you appreciate her for this? Completely grown, like really very mature response and problem solving. That's the first thing I want to say. Right. What would you say in addition?

You're right, because it sounds like he brought it up in the past. He's basically saying that his marriage has lost intimacy. He's much more sexual than she is. She. She said to him several times, like, I'm not going to be the woman you want. Go out and do it. And he was like, oh, you're joking.

Or that wouldn't really work.

And then finally she, like, literally, like, laid down the rules.

I love that she laid down the rules.

And then I think. But what I'm. What I'm hearing is he's like a. Is that really true? Is to put my face, like she's saying, I could go do this. And what if she's just kind of trying to bait me? Because it's unbelievable. But it also sounds what the next thing. When we talk to a lot on the show about, like, communication ad nauseam. It just sounds like he's. Some additional questions. Okay, so now that these are the rules and let me look at these rules, what does it actually look like? So am I going on a date and telling you about it later? Are you following? Are you coming with me on the date? Am I going. Are you doing it as well? So now it sounds like he's gotten over the, like, oh, my God, this is amazing. And now they just need to hammer out some more details of what's the vision?

Yes. What's the vision? Like, check in with her. Does she really want it to be this separate? He's saying that he assumes that she'll participate. Well, ask her. It sounds like she's saying, go do your thing. And it could very well be that she is saying, go do your thing on your own and.

Go ahead with my blessing. And so, yeah, I think you're right just to ask some really specific questions. Do you want to be involved in this? Do you not want to be involved in this? I can live with those rules. Could we add this other extra rule? I'm going to say one other thing. Okay. And I think this is so important.

Ask her again and again and again in many different ways. And don't give up on it, what she wants, because at first she's going to say, we just want you to have what you want. Because right now she's trying to solve a problem.

Just keep asking her what she wants because she's giving you permission because she's open to this idea, not just for you, but perhaps for herself. So that openness that she's extending to you, if you Just keep extending it to her as well. And just stay curious about. Just keep telling her how much you appreciate that she's doing this and willing to go there. But don't forget to just ask her, what do you want? And I've found personally that a partner who really wants to give you the freedoms to do the things that you want is a person that you just care for more and more and more and you want, want talk about conversion. You want them to have the wonderful things that you want. So keep asking her until you find out. I mean, don't badger her. But right now she's trying to resolve a problem which is getting him what he wants down the line. That means that let's get her what she wants.

Well, I love what you pointed out here is that she, she's trying to solve a problem. She's like, babe, I don't want the sex.

I'm busy.

I'm on the road.

Like, here's how you can get the sex. So you're right, though in some ways she's kind of deflecting, like, take care of my husband needs. But eventually, or maybe even now, she has some needs too, and she might.

So. Yeah, you said that much more efficiently than I did. Yes, that what doctor all the things.

It's all good.

That was very, very helpful. Okay, so Tom and Love it, love it. Lily, 34 in Alaska. My wife and I are looking at adding a girlfriend to our relationship. We don't want it to be just about sex. We want a real connection. We've tried some dating apps, but we got but have gotten nowhere. We're slightly introverts, but aren't opposed to going out if possible. So our question is this. What would you recommend for finding a girlfriend for a married couple looking to have a real connection with and have fun? It's hard to find someone who isn't just looking for a one night bling or something along those terms. And we really aren't into that. Being in Alaska, I feel like we're limited with choices. We don't have the means to travel so long distances out. Thank you for your time. We love your show and tips. Alaska. Yeah.

Okay. You know what I would do? Honestly, top to toe, I have a few things to say. First of all, I would get on a dating app. I would set my location. I would be 100% clear about everything that you want as a couple, everything you're looking for. And then I would show these potential girlfriends that you want to add to your relationship. I would show them that you Already understand what would make them wary and that you're not going to do it. You're not going to treat them as a needs fulfilling machine. You're not going to treat them as like a person without feelings who's just there to be your sexual thrill. Right. Because this is what unicorns complain about. And they have a really good point that they're often dehumanized and that the couple's all about themselves and just using her. Be really clear not only about your location and what you're looking for, but be really clear that you understand their humanity and that you're looking for somebody who wants to be in a relationship and that show them that you are down for that and that you know what the risks are to women who unicorn and that you're not gonna be part of them having that kind of bad experience. That would be. What's your advice?

I like that really speaking to their needs too is important. You're right. Because they're probably like, it could be so unclear, like, am I your slave or am I just for sex? Or I sleep in a separate room. So really then getting clear on what it actually looks like.

Like, are they saying, like, well, you're here to kind of make our relationship more exciting? If that's true, say it. Or are they saying you're here because we actually both want a relationship with somebody else, Like a poly type of thing. I would just get as specific and honest as I could. Which is going to be the conversation with your primary person.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. And I also think some apps. I've heard that Field F E L D has been successful for many couples.

Yes. There are many people on field looking for a third.

So there could be some profiles on there that you could look at and see if any of those get you interested. But the great thing is you can also start to adapt and evolve your profile too and just see what people respond to you.

Exactly.

I loved your dating profile that you had up was so. I just loved how specific you were and this is what I want and you asked for it and it was just so clear and you got it. Would you want to share any of that?

What you. Oh, sure. Yeah. I remember realizing when I went on dating apps, I remember realizing, oh, this is such a great opportunity. I can say exactly what I want.

So, you know, if you're a person who has a tall thing, say, I have a tall thing. I didn't apologize at all. I was like, take care. Six feet and over only. Please be athletic. Please Be cliterate.

Please be clear. It's a big one.

Yep. Please be ggg. Please care about closing the orgasm gap.

Gg. What's ggg?

Explain that. So that's a term from Dan Savage, who coined the term monogamish to describe a relationship where you're mostly, you have other adventures, but your primary is your primary emotionally and sexually is your. Is your home base. So he also coined this term ggg, which I believe means good giving and game.

Oh, I remember that.

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay. And I could, I could have it wrong. I love Dan and his work and sorry if I got it wrong, Dan, but GGG just basically means are you a good communicator? Do you care about somebody else's favorite pleasure as much as you care about your own? You know, are you open minded? All the things that we want in a partner. Right. And yeah. And at certain points I would say things like, I'm only going to see you three times. Right. Or I'm only going to see you five times. At certain points I was very specific. Like, you know, this is just for. Just excite, just for excitement and adventure. Eventually, like I said when I was living alone, I changed it and I said things like looking for somebody to go for walks with.

Looking for somebody, you know? Yeah. So it changed over time. But yeah, I was super specific. Oh, and I even said things like, I like to be pursued.

That's the one that I. Yeah, you say I like to be pursued and treated.

Yeah, I like to be spoiled and pursued. I think I said it one time. Yeah, I, I was into it.

This is amazing and all that. Yeah.

You know how it's too scary to tell people things sometimes for us. I have found, especially among women, I have found so many women get so nice and entitled in their dating bios. It's like they feel freed up to say what they really want. Now I felt super freed up because, I don't know, I don't show a lot of my face on my bio. I, you know, you and I are people who, we don't want people being like, oh, are you so and so. Right. Or whatever. And my husband and I were keeping it very private for a while, so I felt really freed up. Right. Like I had these pictures where I was a little bit blurry. I said exactly whatever the hell I wanted. But I really encourage, especially women, I really encourage them to get a speaker specific as possible, whether they want to be open or not. Just be so specific about what you want. When el you going to get a chance for that Again, if you're a woman, join a woman who just wants to go down on you for two hours. Yeah. Do you want a guy who just. Are you really into intercourse? I mean, you'll, you'll get. Oh, there, there will be things that you will not be allowed to say, but say everything that you want to say without getting kicked off the app. Exactly.

Well, what I love that you said was that I want someone to prepare, pursue me and I want to be spoiled. I want someone to make a plan. And I was like, wow, I want that too.

But I didn't think you could say it.

And you said it and you got it. And I just think that that's such a great.

And you'd be surprised how many people really, really. A lot of people don't read, but a lot of people do and they're really game. I love that. I love that about dating apps. Why not find the people who are game?

We're not looking for the people you got to convince. Like, you might as well. People who aren't totally down.

So.

So I love that. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. I'm going to ask you the five quickie questions that we ask all of our guests.

Okay.

What's your biggest turn on?

Someone who puts care into seeing me.

What's your biggest turnoff?

Somebody who wants to just drop in in my life rather than be intentional about it.

What makes good sex?

Lack of inhibition. Being open minded about trying new stuff. Because sex is iterative. You so have to be in the present moment and responding to how the person's body responds. Something works for your ex girlfriend might not work for me. So to me, a great sexual partner is somebody who can be in the moment and adjust and doesn't feel criticized and has an open mind about it. Right.

Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

Sex is good. Keep being careful. You don't have to be exclusive if you don't want to be. And you can if you do.

What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

It's good for you. It's good for you emotionally. It's good for you psychologically. But it's good for you physically. You can't be healthy if you don't have sexual health and pleasure is part of sexual health. You deserve pleasure. You deserve it. It's your fundamental human right. Pleasure is your birthright.

Yep, that's it. I love it. And that's what. Oh, finding relationships and the sex that work for you. So you can have more pleasure. And you've done that Wednesday. What a beautiful example. Thank you so much for being here. We can't wait to read your book. I love you and adore your pieces. Where can people find you?

Thanks Emily. I just want to say I treasure you. I treasure your friendship. I treasure your brain. I treasure our conversations in private and here. Thank you honey. People can find me on Instagram. I'm @WednesdayMartin PhD on Twitter I'm WednesdayMartin. You can just search me Dr. WednesdayMartin.

Thank you. Thanks.

Thanks honey.

That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to Sex with Emily. And if you love the show, please like subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or a partner. It might just spark something. It usually does. You can find me on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook and X. It's all Sex with Emily. Oh, and I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sex with emily.com for free guides and articles and more ways to prioritize your pleasure.

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