Why Prioritizing Sexual Pleasure Makes You Healthier (Backed by Science) | ft. Dr. Justin Lehmiller

One of the key things we saw in that research was that for the people who managed after that year to still be on good terms with their friends with benefit, they had the communication in the beginning. They set the ground rules, got on the same page about what their expectations were. What is this and what isn't this?

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Are you suddenly feeling a little kinkier? Well, according to my guest, social psychologist and Kinsey Institute researcher, Dr. Justin Lehmill, a lot of us are ready to experiment right now. Justin shares fascinating sex research from the COVID era, including why Americans have become significantly more sexually adventurous. With over half trying something new in bed since the pandemic began. We dive into the sex communication practices heterosexual individuals can learn from the LGBTQ community and how to make casual sex better for women. Spoiler alert. Emphasize her pleasure. We also explore the Kinsey Scale and why sexuality is so fluid, why threesomes are such a popular fantasy, and what our porn preferences reveal and don't reveal about us. Plus, we discuss sex education as it's practiced in the Netherlands and get incredibly useful tools for talking to your kids about sex. Dr. Justin Lehmiller is a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute. He runs a sex and psychology blog and podcast and is author of Tell Me what yout the Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help youp Improve your Sex Life. He's an award winning educator, prolific researcher, and leading voice in sexuality research and education. My intention is to give you some of the latest sex studies so you realize you're not alone in wanting to expand your sexual horizons and show you that better communication really is the key to everything. All right, everybody. Enjoy this episode with Dr. Justin Lehmiller. Hi, Justin. So good to have you back on the show. And you've been busy.

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. I mean, it's been an interesting time to be a sex researcher and I've been busier than ever in conducting the most research and actually I think published the most of my entire career. Really in the beginning, my career totally changed because I had all of these speaking gigs lined up and I was going to be traveling the world. I think I was going to be in seven different countries last summer. And so all of a sudden I found myself with a lot of time on my hands and I was talking to some of my colleagues at the Kinsey Institute. And we were seeing all these media headlines about, you know, what was going to be happening for sex lives. Lots of big, bold predictions. And so we thought, huh, is any of that actually going to shake out? So we wanted to actually collect the data to test whether what we were seeing in the media was, was actually coming to fruition. So, you know, that kind of gave us the inspiration, and I think we all had more time on our hands and needed something to focus on. So he turned to sex research.

But I remember thinking, yes, Justin's doing this. What did we learn about this? What's up now?

So that's a great question. You know, there's no baby boom. There's no evidence that, you know, people were really having a lot of sex. So that's what we found in the research we did at the Kinsey Institute. Although we did find that people were being more sexually experimental. About one in five people last year said they tried something new in the bedroom. So we recently conducted a new study to see, you know, what do things look like? So the Kinsey Institute partnered with Love Honey to do this survey of, you know, what, what is happening right now in our sex lives and relationships. And one of the really interesting things we found was that there was an even greater trend toward sexual experimentation. So Americans have become kinkier. We actually found that a majority of Americans, 51, 52%, so they tried something new in bed since the pandemic began. And also that a majority of Americans said that their sexual interests had shifted in some way. And of those who reported a shift, three quarters of them said that they became kinkier. So we're kind of thinking of this as the hot kink summer. You know, when people are kind of exploring their wild side.

That's exciting. What are they trying? What are they doing? That's kinky.

Yeah. So kink is one of those big, messy terms that means different things to different people. The way we defined it for purposes of our survey was, you know, interest in what you would consider to be non mainstream sexual activities. So for some, that's BDSM type stuff. For others, it might be having a three summer group sex. For others, it might be trying a sex toy for the first time or, you know, having sex in new positions and locations. You know, there was all different kinds of stuff that people said they were trying. But interestingly, you know, as someone who is a big sexual fantasy researcher, I saw that a lot of people said that one of the most common new things they did was to share and act on their sexual fantasies. So people got more in touch with their fantasies during this period. And also, one of the really, really cool things about the recent study we did was that we saw that it was around 40% or so of Americans who said that they got better at communicating about sex. They felt more comfortable talking about sex with their partners. And so, you know, for all this talk of doom and gloom, you know, there are some positive sides of it that we've become better sexual communicators in some way. We've started exploring other sides of our sexual selves that maybe we otherwise wouldn't have because we didn't really have the opportunity.

You know, I guess it was about having time.

Time was definitely a big part of it. Another part was that, you know, people were really stressed and anxious. And so that actually creates for a lot of people this barrier to getting in the mood for sex and to feeling sexual desire. But if you engage in a new activity, you can kind of break through some of the inhibitions that are caused by stress and anxiety because it creates this immersive experience that draws you in. They're raises arousal, makes it easier to become aroused than stay aroused, because you're in the moment when you're trying something that's new and different. So I think that was a big part of it for a lot of people. And then also couples, I think, needed to find ways to meet their needs for self expansion, that need to keep trying new and different things. And since you couldn't leave your home and go out and do all the things you might normally do on, say, a date night, you kind of had to learn to try new things in the bedroom at home.

It's very, very hopeful. And it all comes through communication. We all need to. You know, I always say communication is a lubrication. So people have the time and space to talk and to experiment. You know, so many people email and call in with questions that their mind's wandering during sex and they're anxious and they're worried and they can't get in the mood and they're worrying about things. But when you try something new, a new act, a new sex act, even if it's talking dirty or a fantasy, your mind can't wander because you're both present and connected. Okay, Justin, let's talk about threesomes, because you did kind of mention that people were having threesomes. I had some people call into the show. I think there was a guy in Tennessee and he's like, we're having an eightsome over here. I'M like eight of you. You're having. Okay, what about threesomes and how many of them have had threesomes? I know you've done a lot of studies on threesomes.

Yeah, I'm a threesome researcher. And, you know, kind of what sparked my interest in it initially was I published this book a couple of years ago. We actually spoke about it on an earlier podcast that it was called Tell Me what yout want. I surveyed 4,000Americans, 4,000 plus Americans about their sexual fantasies, and I found that threesomes were actually the most popular sexual fantasy. So that kind of got me interested in better understanding the psychology behind it. And ever since, I've included threesome questions on most of the sex surveys that I've done. So, you know, to answer your question about how many people have ever had a threesome, if you look at nationally representative data, it's about 1 in 5 men and 1 in 10 women who say that they've ever had a threesome before. So when you look at the number of people who are fantasizing about threesomes versus the number who have actually done it, you know, there's a pretty big gap between fantasy and reality. There were some people who were interested in having threesomes and who did have threesomes. I think it was around 2% of Americans in our recent nationally representative study that we did through the Kinsey Institute who said they had their first threesome during the pandemic. So some people did it, and some people also did virtual threesomes. You know, that was another thing where they kind of like, had to find a new way to connect. It's like, I want to explore this side of myself. But some people did feel safe doing that in person, so they did it over. Zoom.

Why not? And I always tell people, practice a threesome at a time. Dirty talk, text about it. What you found was that it's the number one fantasy for. For all genders. Right? It's not. People always assume it's like men sometimes, but it's all genders fantasize about threesomes. But how does that differ? What they are. What they are actually fantasizing about? Like, how do men and women differ in that way? Their attitudes towards it.

So on average, men fantasize about threesomes in group sex more often than. Than women. But most women have had this type of fantasy before, according to the data that we've collected. And, you know, in terms of overall differences in sexual fantasies, men and women have a lot in common. You know, most of the things that men are fantasizing about, women have fantasized about as well, and vice versa. But besides multi partner sex, some of the other areas where we see differences are that women do tend to have more of a passion in romance fantasies. They fantasize about that more frequently than men do. But most men have those fantasies too. And we actually saw an increase in passion, fashion and romance fantasies. That was the one type of fantasy where we really saw an increase over the last year and a half or so. And I think that it really speaks to the fact that so many people felt lonely and disconnected from people around them. And so they were trying to turn inward and use their fantasies as sort of a way of coping. And I think that kind of explains the rise of the passion and romance type fantasies.

That makes sense. How do you define a passion and romance fantasy?

Yeah, that's one of those things that can take different forms for different people. But the real core of the passion and romance fantasy is that it's about emotional connection. It's about being present and being connected to another person. And so that's what really distinguishes it from some of the other types of fantasies. That's not to say that you don't have passion and emotion in other types of fantasies. Like, certainly a threesome can be very passionate. Right. And I think every type of fantasy we have, you know, we're often trying to meet some type of deeper psychological need. And you know, for example, that can often be feeling desired. And so a threesome fantasy. I see that most people fantasize about being the center of attention in a threesome, which means, you know, they want that attention and validation from other people. And so it's not necessarily just about, oh, I want extra bodies around and extra things to see and touch and feel and extra forms of physical sensation. No, it's often about like this deeper emotional need that people are trying to meet. So that's a different way of sort of looking at our sexual fantasies is that they're not always about the second act itself. Sometimes there's this emotional subtext that I think, as a psychologist, is really fascinating to explore.

I love to think about people fantasizing more about connection and intimacy. How do these threesomes turn out? Are people happy with the threesomes? Are they a disappointment?

Great question. And so threesomes, despite being the most popular fantasy, they're also the fantasy that is least likely to turn out well. And I think that's because a lot of people don't really have a script for how it should Go. So they get into the situation and they're not sure who's supposed to do what with whom and when. Right. And oftentimes people have very discrepant ideas about how they want the threesome to go. And like I said, most people are fantasizing about being the center of attention, but not everyone can be the center of attention unless you're going to take turns and negotiate that and communicate and figure it out in advance. And this isn't to say that threesomes never work out well, because often they do. It's just that there seems to be a little bit more risk there because there often isn't the communication present between all partners. You know, a lot of threesomes start with people just kind of having a couple drinks, and then next thing you know, clothes are coming off and they haven't negotiated or communicated about anything beforehand. So that's where I think a lot of them tend to go wrong. It's just there. There isn't that level of intimacy and communication with all partners. And I think that's actually where the virtual threesomes can be helpful as a practice, you know, to. To kind of learn how to communicate with multiple partners at the same time and kind of figure out how do we all get what we want out of this? And so maybe that's a good starting point for people. And maybe we'll be better prepared for three things because we practice them on zoom.

Exactly. I mean, is that funny? Isn't that funny? Well, it is true. That makes so much sense. Of the ones that are more successful are the people who did the planning. Sure. Like, a spontaneous threesome might work out well, but you're much more likely to work out if you've discussed it. You've have boundaries, you have really healthy communic, then you're probably going to do okay, but just, you know, we got really drunk and the three of us fell into bed. Maybe not as much.

Well, and there's also an interesting difference I see in my research based on people's sexual orientation. So, for example, heterosexual cisgender women tend to be the least satisfied with their threesome experiences, whereas gay men tend to be the most satisfied. And, you know, everyone else is kind of somewhere in the middle. And I think part of it is that when you're talking about a heterosexual dynamic, heterosexual, male, female couple, you have people often with different ideas of the gender of the third person they want to bring in. Right. And so somebody might be making a compromise or sacrifice in some way and doing something that they'd like to have a threesome, but maybe it's not under their optimal circumstances. But if you're looking at, say, a threesome between three gay men, everybody's on the same page about the gender of the partner that they want. And so there's some differences there, interestingly. And also just in general, sexual minorities, LGBTQ persons report better experiences acting out their sexual fantasies. And I think part of that is because they tend to have better sexual communication on average, and they're more likely to talk about what they want, and that makes it more likely that you're going to get what you want.

That's so interesting. So what do you think it is about the gay community that allows men to be better communicators?

Well, you know, it's interesting, for example, if you look at an apple like Grindr, right, which facilitates connections between men who have sex with men predominantly, and there's actually a lot of communication sexually that takes place on there. You know, one of the most common phrases that you're going to see is, what are you into? Right? And so they have that discussion about, you know, here are the sex acts that I am and I'm not into. And so you don't see that happening quite as often in heterosexual populations. And on apps, there's just not as much negotiation beforehand about here are the specific types of activities that I'm into and what my boundaries are. You know, you'll see more discussion of kink on, you know, apps like Grindr, just because there is that, you know, sort of higher level of sexual communication, and I think, in some ways, a little bit less shame in talking about sexual fantasies and desires that might be considered taboo because, you know, by virtue of being lgbtq, you've already transgressed some social boundaries, and so that makes it less costly in some ways to transgress other sexual boundaries. Right. So I think that that kind of opens the door to embrace other aspects of your sexual self and communicate about them with your partner.

That makes so much sense. And I'm. I'm always saying I wish that heterosexual people would talk about sex earlier on, like, right away. I mean, there's so much more to gain. But when it's, like, silent, we pretend it's not even really a thing. And because there is shame in talking about it. And I don't want this person to think something about me. Whatever it is, that our beliefs are just. You get it out of the way early on. I mean, just know. But I think a lot of people probably, I just know that they don't really know what they want, or they haven't experimented much. But would that ever happen, you think, on Grindr, is it pretty much like, you better be able to answer these questions? Because I feel like heterosexual couples are like, well, I'm not sure what I'm into, or I haven't experimented enough.

Well. And, you know, I. I'm not going to paint anybody in, in broad strokes, because, you know, there are some CIS people who are great at communicating about sex.

Yes.

And then there are LGBTQ people who have a lot of sexual hang ups, are not very good at talking about it, or just aren't comfortable doing it. So, you know, we're talking about differences on average. There's always some variability. But, you know, I think the point is just within the LGBTQ community, you tend to see a bit more of this communication. People are more explicit about what they want. And so I think, you know, there's actually a lot of things that we can learn from the LGBTQ community that could make heterosexual sexual dynamics better. And, you know, another lesson that they can learn, for example, is to look at. At how lesbians define sex. Right. So if you look at how heterosexuals define sex, the vast majority say penile vaginal intercourse. A high percentage will say penile anal intercourse. But most of them don't count oral sex, and they don't count other activities. But if you look at lesbians, you know, in the research I've seen, they count at least 10 different activities as sex. A majority of them do. And that includes just genital. Genital touching, you know, where there isn't any penetration, it can include use of sex toys. Right. So when you take this more expansive view of sex, it gives you more opportunities to be intimate when maybe you're in the mood for one thing, but your partner isn't. Well, you can explore other possibilities together. And also, as you age and as your body changes, like, if you have that expansive view of sex, it just gives you so many more possibilities for things you can do. So, you know, it just. I think there's lots of lessons that we can learn from other communities, apply in our own life and enhance our sex lives.

Exactly, Justin. Absolutely. I love that you're bringing this up because I often say we're so. In heterosexual relationships, we're so centered on penetration, and that's just not how a lot of vulva owners are going to say when they think about sex. That's not what they're looking for. They might not be the mood. They don't have as much Pleasure that way. Like to me, a great oral sesh. That's, that is, that is sex. So you're right. First of all, let me just plug your website because your website is fantastic. Fantastic. Laymiller.com l e h m I l l e r.com we're going to put all of your links in the show notes. But I love that your studies are just, they're so well written, they're so easy to digest and they're so fascinating. You also did an article of how similar or different are the sex lives of gay and straight men. Do you want to talk about some of those findings?

So I love blogging about and podcasting about sex and taking the research and translating it for the public because there's so much great sex science that's out there, but it's written in this very jargon filled way that, you know, the average person just can't understand. So that's what I consider to be one of my jobs is to take the research and make it digestible for you and you know, you can learn things about yourself and about others and hopefully that can help to improve and enhance your sex life. But for the specific article you mentioned, that was a write up of a study comparing heterosexually identified and gay identified men in terms of, you know, number of partners and how their sex lives are similar or different. And you know, it's interesting because people tend to think that, that gay and straight men are totally different, like that they're polar opposites. But what the data show is that they actually have a lot in common, especially in terms of their level of desire for sex. There is a difference in average number of partners, with gay men tending to have more, but that's likely because they have more sexual opportunities because men on average are more interested in casual sex. It's not to say that women aren't interested in casual sex, they're just interested in casual sex that often happens under the terms that it's not offered. Right? So for example, if you look at some of the research where if women know that they're going to be with a highly skilled partner who's going to bring them a lot of pleasure that they really want to be with, you know, their interest in casual sex is the same as men. So when you add pleasure to the equation, women are into it, but you know that it's not always there, right? And I know you've talked about this before a lot on your podcast and in your other work about women's pleasure. Just like often isn't prioritized to the same degree as men's is, and that leads a lot of women to have unsatisfying casual sex experiences. So if we want to make casual sex better for women, we have to prioritize women's pleasure.

Cannot say it enough, so thank you for. And a lot of women email in and they're like, I really want to be able to have casual sex, but I don't. I have weird, you know, I'm, you know, I don't feel great about it. Like, they don't do it. There should be no pressure. And at the end of the day, and Justin's here to back me up, it's not as satisfying for women. Research even shows that having a highly skilled partner, God, could be vet for that. How do we find those people?

You know, another study I'm thinking about comparing gay and straight men, looks at the kinds of porn that they watch and consume. And, you know, a lot of people would kind of think that, well, you tend to watch porn that's consistent with your sexual identity. But what we've seen in the research, regardless of sexual orientation, is that there's a lot of identity discrepancy, porn watching that goes on. A lot of heterosexually identified men watch gay male porn, and a lot of gay identified men watch heterosexual porn. Right. And I think that speaks to the fact that there's a lot of sexual fluidity across genders, across sexual orientations. And so we don't fit as neatly into these little boxes that people think that we do in terms of our sexual attractions and behaviors. And it's something that a lot of people just don't talk about. But that's one of the interesting things as a researcher is that I ask people the questions that they're not typically asked by others, and we learn a lot about their sexuality. And it's far more diverse and variable than people give it credit for and often doesn't match up with the stereotypes that people hold.

Yes, exactly. You know, I always mention the Kinsey scale, Right?

Yep.

You know how it's, it's, it's a spectrum, and a lot of our listeners haven't really heard about it. Like, how many of us are fully heterosexual versus somewhere in the middle. So can you, can you kind of talk about it for a minute? Because we, we do get a lot of questions from listeners. And if, if you're, maybe you've sent this question, if you're listening, you know, women are like, I'm concerned. I'm watching lesbian porn, but I'm not a Lesbian or, you know, some. A lot of straight men say, I'm watching gay porn. What does it mean? So we get that all the time. And I'm always like, well, it's a spectrum. But maybe you could talk about it from actually being work a Kinsey fellow.

Yeah. I mean, and there's also a lot of interesting work looking at the type of porn that women watch. And you have a lot of women, heterosexually identified women in particular, who watch gay male porn. And it's interesting when you look at their reasons for why they're watching it. For some it's just, you know, it's a novelty, or they're just like, really into men. So having multiple men is like twice the pleasure that they get out of it. And in other cases, you have women saying that they prefer to watch porn that doesn't have women in it because then they're not psychologically putting themselves in the position of the women and the porn that they're consuming. And so it can allow them to be more in the moment and to enjoy what they're watching. And so when you're talking about something like porn watching, what do people watch and why? It's much more complex than people think it is. Because human sexuality is inherently complex. And now I've gotten off on a porn tangent and I don't remember.

No, but that's true. That's so helpful, though. It's true. It doesn't have to mean anything. Just that it's inherently complex, which I had thought about that women just don't want to take other women out. I don't want to be comparing my body to her body or her orgasms to mine. That makes so much sense.

Yeah. And has she consented to this? You know, like, that's a whole other issue because you don't often see that consent negotiation piece in porn. And I think it's so interesting when you see pornography where you have like. Like an exit interview with the performers after this. But they talk about what that experience was like for them, and it's so fascinating. And I think when you have that present, I think it can provide a lot of reassurance to the viewer that, hey, everyone here was into it and on board and here's what they took out of it and how they felt about it. And so having that sort of behind the scenes look like lifting the veil behind pornography is just a fascinating experience that I don't think most people have had because what happens on set is very different from the shortened version that you see on your screen. There's so much happening behind the scenes. I was on a podcast with Tina Moren a couple of years ago, and I think she made the perfect analogy for this. She said watching porn is like watching a cooking show, right? You're only seeing, like, the little highlights here and there, and you're not seeing, like, how long the whole process takes and everything that goes on behind the scenes. You're not seeing, like, the reapplications of lubrication and the consent negotiation beforehand. And so it's like you're watching the highlight reel as opposed to this whole experience and how it actually played out. And you also don't see things like the laughter that takes place between takes and like, the. The communication and dynamic that can exist between the performers. And I think if you had a little bit more of that present, porn would feel a lot more ethical to some people.

Yeah, that's such a good analogy. I'm thinking about the cooking shows. Like, somebody had to cut up those green beans. They're not only are, like, sliced and diced in the bowl, you know, the equivalent of that would be, like, lube and warm up and consent. Like someone had to cut things up and make it all look pretty. That is a great analogy, but can we go back to the Kinsey scale for a second? Just kind of explaining the basic premise of that when it first came out, like in the early 50s, right?

Yeah. So Alfred Kinsey did his pioneering research on human sexuality in the 40s and 50s, and he developed his famous Kinsey scale where he plotted sexual orientation or sexuality on a spectrum. And Kinsey wasn't really focused on sexual identity at the time because, you know, people didn't really have the identity labels that we have today. And so his work was really focused more around sexual attraction and sexual behavior. And so he created this zero to six scale, with zero being exclusively heterosexual in terms of your attraction and behavior, and six being exclusively homosexual in terms of your attraction and behavior, with everything in the middle being some degree of bisexuality, with a three being equal attraction to. To men and to women. And then there was also an X on his scale for people who didn't really experience sexual attraction. So he did observe asexuality in a way, and kind of allowed for that in his scale. So that was kind of like where the origins of this idea of sexuality on a spectrum began. I think the Kinsey scale made a really important contribution, but it's not necessarily optimal for how we assess sexual orientation sexuality in the modern world, because we recognize it's really Complex. There's so many components. And how do gender diverse individuals fit into this? Right. And also your sexual attraction versus your romantic attraction and the number of partners that you want to have. And are you monogamously oriented or non monogamously oriented? So when I have some colleagues who are trying to put all of these pieces together to sort of come up with kind of the, the grand theory of sexuality.

Oh, I would love that. So what could we do better in understanding people who are more fluid sexually? And. And if I recall correctly, that many people are a zero, wasn't it more like people are more like a one or two? Right. Is that, was that sort of what he found?

It also varied across men and across women in terms of kind of what the numbers were. I believe that Kinsey found that about 10% of the men he surveyed were a five or a six. So they were at the more exclusively gay end of the spectrum, if you will. And so that's where this idea of 10% of the population being gay came from, is that Kinsey found that 10% of the men were a five or six. Now, the issue with drawing broad conclusions, sweeping conclusions from that was that Kinsey didn't have a representative sample. Right. He was studying sex in a time where it was really taboo. And so it was just whoever he could get to talk to him. And so he did over sample from the gay community. He did a lot of his work interviewing men in gay bars. And so you can't necessarily look at, you know, his findings and say these are direct population estimates. And actually, it wasn't until the 1990s that we actually had our first nationally representative survey of human sexuality in the United States. Right. You know, when you think about it from that standpoint, our knowledge of human sexuality is still really young. It's, it's still in its infancy in a lot of ways, because there's so many barriers to studying it.

God, that's amazing. Then maybe it was the women were a little bit more one or two. Right.

Yeah. So in the modern research, we see that there is more variability in sort of where women fall on these scales compared to men. Whereas men tend to cluster more at the far ends of the spectrum. You have more women kind of in the middle. And we see this across a wide range of studies. But there's also some age related differences in this as well. So if you look at the oldest Americans today, a very small percentage who identify as LGBTQ, it's about 1 to 2%. But if you look at the youngest Americans today, the 18 to 24 year olds, according to recent national polls, about 16% of them identify as LGBTQ, which is a huge number.

I saw that. That just came out this week. Right. I think it was a 40% increase, it said, in people who had identified as LGBTQ. I thought that was amazing.

Yeah. And it's really interesting when you look at where the growth is. So actually, the number of Americans who identify as gay or lesbian actually hasn't really changed over the years in recent decades. It's the number who identify as bisexual or as trans or non binary where you're really seeing that high level of growth. And I think, you know, for the bisexual identification piece, you know, bisexuality has long been really stigmatized, and despite the fact that Americans are much more accepting of gays and lesbians, today, they're not necessarily that much more accepting of bisexuals. Right. And I've written about this on the blog, where attitudes toward gays and lesbians have moved on average, positive over time, whereas attitudes toward bisexuals have only become neutral. Right. People still have a lot of hangups about bisexuality.

What do you think that's about? All the hangups? I get a lot of questions about that too. We don't have a lot of examples of it.

There's a lot of questioning of whether it's real. And that's especially true for men who identify as bisexual. People are more accepting of women's bisexuality, especially if you look at, say, heterosexual men, because they eroticize, you know, women who are into same sex experiences, but you don't necessarily see that same level of eroticism, this eroticization of bisexual men among heterosexual women. Right. And yeah, actually I hear this from a lot of bisexual men where they actually find it really hard to find female partners because there are a lot of women who are convinced that they're secretly gay and that they could never be happy in a relationship with them and that they would always want to leave them for a man. And so, you know, there's all these stereotypes about bisexuals that they can't be monogamous, that they're secretly gay, and, and it's, it's really, really harmful. And so that has led a lot of people to hide their bisexuality from their partners. But what we're seeing, especially among younger adults, is that they're getting a lot more comfortable acknowledging and coming out with their bisexual identities.

I think that's exciting. I was, I was like, I cheered when I read that. So exciting. So let's, let's talk about dating for a minute. What about friends with benefits, because we do get a lot of questions about this. I know you've done some work around this. What happens with friends with benefits? How do they work out? Who experiences better versus worse outcomes?

So I love this topic. I actually just wrote a post for my blog on what I learned from a decade of research on friends with benefits.

Okay, this is so good. Everyone check it out. Check out his site, laymiller.com, but he's going to give us the highlights right now.

So, you know, actually my very first sex study, like how I dip my toes in the water was by studying friends with benefits. And it was because I had a lot of my college students who were asking me, how do these relationships work? What do I need to know? And I was like, well, I'd love to give you an answer, but I don't have data to give you an answer to base it on. And I always want to, when I'm talking about and answering people's questions to have some data to back it up. Otherwise, I'll just say, I don't know, I got to go contact the study first. But one of the studies that I did with some of my colleagues was a one year longitudinal study of friends with benefits. So we followed people for a year to see what happens to their friends with benefits relationship over time. And to my knowledge, it's the first longitudinal study of this. And it was really fascinating because we saw that these relationships go off in a lot of different directions and most of them did not last. You know, for that entire full year period. You had some who went on to become romantic partners, some who were still friends with benefits, some who went back to being just friends, and then some who became in frenemies, right, that have lost their entire connection. And it was really split across the board in terms of those outcomes. So there wasn't really just one trajectory that these relationships took. They went off a lot of different ways. But one of the key things we saw in that research was that for the people who managed after that year to still be on good terms with their friends with benefit, they had the communication in the beginning. They set the ground rules, they got on the same page about what their expectations were. What is this and what isn't this, right? And that's where a lot of friends with benefits go wrong, is that people come in with different expectations. One person sees this as a chance to be with this person and maybe turn it into a romantic relationship. The other person is really just looking for no string sex. And so that's where things tend to go wrong.

That's so true. We got it. So. So if you want to have a better threesome and a better friends with benefit situation and communicate everyone, or really, I mean, let's just be honest, every sexual situation will benefit from some healthy communication. And how common are these friends with benefits relationships?

They are common and they're actually becoming increasingly common. So if you look at nationally representative surveys over time, when people are asked, have you ever had sex with a friend before? You've seen this increase in recent years. So friends with benefits are on the rise. They're becoming more common. And I want to say, to the the best of my recollection, because this wasn't one of my studies and it's been a little while since I wrote about it, but it was, it was between 40 and 50% of Americans today who said that they had had sex with a friend before. Right. Which says this is not at all an uncommon experience. And that's another one of those things that increased to some degree during the pandemic. Right. Because a lot of people lived with a friend or a roommate and they couldn't go out and date and hook up and do these other things. And so there were a lot of friends and roommates who hooked up.

Yeah, exactly. What else are you going to do? Yeah, And I do feel like I'm hearing more about them, but often with that confusing, like, what's your intentions? Is that really what you want? So that's really important to talk about it because in the end, you know, you're. I mean, you do see some cases where it works out, but people always are thinking about that, like, I'm going to be the one that, where it does work out, they are going to fall in love with me. An article you did yesterday was about another study. It just came on. Yeah, I was so excited about this. 4 Ways Men say Couples vibrators improved their sex lives. I was like, is this a gift that just came up the day before he's on the show. What did that study find?

This was an interesting study where they gave heterosexual men who volunteered for this study a free couple's vibrator and gave them instructions in how to use it. You know, they didn't want them flying blind here. And they gave them about two months and said, you know, we want you to have sex with the vibrator a certain number of times and then have sex without the vibrator a certain number of times. And then they gave them several surveys so they could compare their sexual experiences. And one of the things they found was that the vast majority of men, 71% said that using the couple's vibrator enhanced their sexual pleasure. And 88% said that they plan to keep using the vibrator even after the study was over. And when you looked at what specifically men were saying about how did this vibrator improve their sex life with their partner, one of them was that it enhanced pleasure for them and their partner. And one of the ways that it enhanced pleasure is that by using this couple's vibrator, their hands were free to do other things and pursue other forms of stimulation. So I think it can make it a more multisensory experience in some ways. And then there was also the appreciation of their partner's pleasure. So the men saw how this enhanced their partner's pleasure and that turned them on even more. Right. And seeing your partner pleased and satisfied is really hot. Right. So this is an easy way that you can sort of boost your partner's pleasure in your own pleasure at the same time. And then there's just the novelty aspect, trying something new, getting some different sensation and then the intimacy aspect. You had a lot of men who said they felt more connected to their partner in part because they often had simultaneous orgasms. Right. So you know, there's all kinds of ways that exploring sex toys and couples fibers like this improve your sex life.

I found that too anecdotally in my life and friends lives that once they get past that whole stigma, vibrator is going to replace me. Which people still believe this in 2021 that this study was so great to see. No, you're actually, you know, just try it, try it a few times. And they had to here for a study. But I love that they came to the conclusion that I would assume that. And what I've seen again, anecdot that people, they love the toys, they're like, you know, get out that toy, you're going to bring the toy. And then they forget they ever had the worries about it. I wonder which couple's toy they use. Do you know, do they all get the same one?

It was a We Vibe.

I figured.

Yes. I forget exactly which model it was.

Yeah, the We Vibe Sync is a great couple's toy. This is great. I was so happy to read that because that's what I think. That's amazing. We love We Vibe. And I was also really happy to hear that you are going to teach in the Netherlands. Because when people ask me what should we do about sex ed? I always say well, the only place that I see it doing right, doing well is in the Netherlands, so. So I love that you're teaching abroad. Hopefully it's still happening. You're teaching on sex and culture in Amsterdam. So what can we learn from the Dutch? How do we improve sex ed?

Great question. So I've actually taught several study abroad courses in Amsterdam in the past. They've all been taking groups of college students to the Netherlands to learn about sex and culture. And those were probably the most rewarding experiences of my entire teaching career because I was taking college students from Indiana to another country. For some of them, it was their first time out of the U.S. for some, it was their first time on an airplane. And so you've got this really, you get to share that really eye opening experience with them and then they wind up in the red light district. And it's just, it's fascinating for the.

Whole trip that was after class.

Okay, well, we did our tours of the red light district, right. So we actually had had sex workers who would walk us around the red light district and explain to us how all of this works. And it was so fascinating to be there to watch the sale of sex happen out in the open, right? Where the communication, the negotiation happens, like right there at a window. And then people agree to it, they go in, right. And so there's not that sort of shame and stigma of sex work where in countries where it's illegal, where it's all underground. And so just being able to see that negotiation out in the open is fascinating in and of itself. But for the new course I'm teaching, I'm actually taking a group of practicing sex therapists over with me for a, you know, cultural immersion experience to learn about how sex is different around the world. And one of the things we're doing is I'm having the creators of the sex ed program that is used in more than half of all Dutch schools, they're going to come in and talk to us about how that program works and how successful it is. And, and I love this program so much. It's called Long Live Love. And it really tries to equip adolescents with the tools they need to navigate healthy and satisfying sex lives. And they don't just focus like they do in the U.S. i'm saying don't do it right and that, you know, if you have sex, you will get pregnant and die or you will get chlamydia. And, you know, where it's just in the US we tend to focus only on the really negative side of Sex. And it's just. Just stay away from it over there. Certainly they talk about STIs and STDs, but they also teach you sexual communication skills. And they start at a very early age in kindergarten, teaching you about boundaries and how to communicate about them. They actually teach you the proper anatomical names for your body. They mention the word clitoris. Like, how fucking great is that, right?

Right at 5, right? There's my clitoris. It's amazing.

So they know their bodies. They know how to communicate boundaries and respect for others. And they also teach them how to navigate difficult sexual situations. So, for example, there's this workbook that they give to all the students that I just adore because they give them these difficult sexual situations. You got these boxes with bubbles of people talking. And one of the situations is one partner wants to use a condom, but the other one doesn't. And so how do you resolve that discrepancy? That's an issue that often comes up, and most of us have no template for, or how do we do that? What do we do in that situation? So they actually try to help people to build the sexual communication skills that are going to serve them well. And the result of it is that in the Netherlands, they have the lowest rates of teen pregnancy, teen STIs, and teen abortion in the industrialized world. And here in the US we have the highest rates of all of those things.

Let's just let that sink in for a moment, people, really. I mean, think about what we could learn from that. It's just because we just don't require sex ed, and when we do, it's not accurate. And all the. All those things. I love that you're going over there. I mean, what could parents do? Maybe we're not going to get it in schools, but what could parents do now? Because people always say, how do I answer the questions?

Yeah, I mean, there's so many things that you can do as a parent. One is to start at a young age, right, Talking to your kids about sex. And that's not to say, like at a young age, we're teaching them about intercourse and how it works. Rather, teach them the correct direct names for their body parts rather than euphemisms. And also teach them things about, how do you say, if somebody touches you and you don't want to be touched, how do you communicate about that? And it doesn't necessarily have to be sexual touch. You're just building that broader communication skill because that's something that's going to serve your child well. Throughout their entire life, if something were to happen to them, they'd be more likely to communicate it to you. So this is. Is good for everyone, for your kids to be equipped with these skills. Another thing is, you know, if your kids ask questions about sex, be honest with them. Don't make up stories, don't treat it like Santa Claus, where you're just going to make up some myth or something like that and talk about the stork and so forth. You know, you don't have to get into the mechanics of sex and all this stuff at a young age. You know, think about this as it's age appropriate, developmentally appropriate. Give them the information that they need. Don't be afraid to answer questions if your kids have curiosity, because if they don't get the answer from you, they're probably going to go look for it somewhere else. And they might not get as good of an answer if they do. And then something else is, figure out, when your kids are learning about sex in school, what are they learning so that you can fill in the gaps. Because odds are your school isn't going to teach the kids everything they need to know. And also, you can't cover everything they need to know in the span of one talk. So instead of thinking about the talk, think about having a series of talk with your child over time where you tell them what they need to know at that particular point in time. And that means, you know, at some point it's going to be talking about sex and how it works, talking about your body, talking about safe sex and protection, talking about how relationships work. Right. We need relationship education, too. So think about, you know, how you're going to cover these things and you don't have to do it all at once. And the earlier you start kind of like normalizing this, the less awkward it's going to be. Where people run into problems is they just wait and wait and wait, and then it's too late. Their kids are already having sex and they've missed out on that opportunity to increase the odds that they had a safe, pleasurable, positive experience.

Exactly. It's so true. We're going to miss out. I think people assume like, oh, they're teaching sex. No, they're not teaching penetration when the kids are five, you know, it's age appropriate. What about masturbation? Because I have a lot of people and listeners, kids who are starting to masturbate. And that's something that I'm like, we'll talk to them about it. And they're just like, because here we have a parents who weren't educated either, and they still have shame around it. But how do we stop or what do they do in the Netherlands? How do they talk to their kids about masturbation? How can we help people here?

I mean, masturbation, we have to recognize it's a normal, healthy part of sexual expression. There's nothing wrong with it. And actually masturbation is good for us. You know, masturbation is a form of self care. Masturbation has a lot of benefits. And so, you know, there are certain, obviously certain lessons that you would want to teach your kids about. That's something you do in private. A lot of kids will touch themselves and they kind of have to learn, like, no, that's not something you do at the dinner table and so forth. So you got to teach them the appropriate boundaries. But don't shame them and tell them to not do it. It's really the shame piece that is so damaging around both sex and masturbation. And when you start saying that's dirty, that is shameful, that's disgusting, you should never do that. That's where you're starting to set your kid down the path of having a lot of conflicts around sex and can make it harder for them to communicate about sex with their partners and to get what they want and to build healthy, satisfying relationships. So I think, you know, sort of the biggest lesson we can learn is to avoid the shaming piece of it and to have the open communication. You know, if your child has questions about it and you know, different parents are going to have different levels of comfort with this, I totally get that. And that's okay. Just, just try to avoid the shame piece.

By shame piece, we mean your kids touching yourself and you say, no, that's wrong, that's dirty. If they're like 2 years old and their hands on their pants, that's when it starts.

And then we call it their private parts oftentimes too, which sort of adds this other level to it. Like, it's like something that never should be shown to anyone, let alone a partner and so forth. So it's just thinking about what's the language that you're using, what are the lessons that you want to convey to them, and if it's one that sex and masturbation are unhealthy, shameful, bad things, you know, that can actually be very psychologically damaging to people and can be really hard to get over. I recently had Kristen Mark on my podcast who has done some work on, you know, sort of the early lessons that people have gotten about sex and how they carry them with them for a lifetime. And it can be really psychologically devastating. So I think it's. It's important to reframe the messages that we're providing to our kids around sex and masturbation.

They really do. They really do carry me. Just people think, oh, well, I was when I was younger. But yeah, if you were, you know, practicing a certain religion until you were 18 and you heard every day, like, don't have sex or it's wrong or it's make you blind or whatever, it doesn't mean that you just all of a sudden start having sex and you. You don't still have that wiring, that conditioning.

It. It's traumatic. You know, it's another way to think about it is that, you know, especially if you tell your kids that all of these bad, terrible things are going to happen to them if they masturbate or if they have sex, you know, that creates. Creates a lot of anxiety around this. That can be hard to move past things.

Exactly. Justin, this is so good, the work you're doing. Is there anything that you recommend to parents right now? Like, is there a great book for talking to your kids about sex? Is there something that you recommend?

I mean, there are lots of great books around this, and it kind of depends on, like, you know, where your child is in their developmental process. You know, for example, if you have. Have a teenager, there's this great book called S E X. It's sort of the comprehensive guide to everything you need to know to get you through your teens and 20s. You know, that could be a great gift to give your kid, especially if you're not super knowledgeable about sex yourself or you're really uncomfortable with it. At least you can give them this tool that can equip them with the knowledge so that they're not instead turning to porn or to their peers who may know even less than they do. They're getting, like, incorrect information. And, you know, some of the other books I would recommend, you know, especially if your child is young and you're getting ready to, you know, kind of have that series of talks. There's a book called Read me by Linnae St John, which is like sort of this parental primer for how you have these talks. If your child is really young and you want to teach them about, you know, sort of boundaries and consent, there's a book called let's Talk About Body Boundaries, Consent and Respect. You know, and it's. It's great for kind of giving you the tools and the language you need to help your child at the age where they are and help them learn what it is that they need to know. So, so many great resources out there. Just go out and look for them and. And don't be afraid to. To start that series of talks.

Exactly. Just talk about Lyndee St. John's actually, we went to grad school together. We did an episode a few year. Maybe about a year or two ago, so you guys can check out that episode as well. Justin, this is so helpful. You are doing incredible work, and I'm so happy to see you again. I want to ask you the quickie questions we ask all of our guests. There's five of them. Ready? What is your biggest turn on?

What comes to mind first is actually partner pleasure. Like, it's like knowing that the other person is really into it because that means they're really into you and you're doing something right. And, you know, it feels good. You know, it's really hot to know that everybody's there. And I think, you know, that's where we need to rethink these conversations around consent. Like, consent is really hot. Right? And desire. Mutual desire. Really hot, too. So it's. Yeah, it's. It's all about pleasure.

I love it. What's your biggest turnoff?

Ooh. I mean, that's kind of, like, changed over time because I used to be somebody who was like, sex can only happen in a sensory deprivation chamber. When the lights are off, it's like, you know, there's no sound or anything else because I was, like, very easily distracted. Um, but I don't have as many of those anymore. I'm trying to think, is there, like, one specific thing? I don't know, but it. It would be a different answer depending on where I am in my life.

Okay, got it. Um, what makes good sex?

Of course, the communication always makes it good. Um, because you have to be able to tell your partner what it is that you want. So I think that's really the key is being able to say what you want and to listen to what your partner is saying about what they want. And. And to work your best to make sure that everybody is getting a little bit of that or a lot of it.

Something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

It's not dirty and shameful and that, you know, relationships are great, but they're hard work, and you know, that there isn't, like, just that one ideal person out there that you're going to meet and everything's going to work out perfectly. It's, you know, the way to think about a soulmate is it's like it's that person who makes you want to work on the relationship and that person who motivates you to get up and do that. And so that's, I think, a really important lesson for relationships.

Good. Number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex.

Well, I think the number one thing I would say would be that sex isn't just one thing. Sex can be anything you want it to be. And the narrower your definition of sex, the more likely you are to be setting yourself up for disappointment and for disagreement and conflict in your relationship. So I think it's really important to expand that definition. Have this whole erotic buffet of things that you can choose from. And so then you know, you can always figure out something to connect and to get pleasure and have intimacy.

Oh, so well said. So inspiring. Dustin. Where can everyone find you?

Well, my podcast and blog are sex and psychology. You can find it at leymiller.com or sexandpsychology.com you can also find links to my books and other projects and you can follow me on the social medias. I'm on Instagram at Justin J.

La Miller, thank you so much for being here, Justin. I so appreciate you. And we have to do this more often and then meet in person.

Yes, always great to see you. Thanks so much for having me.

Thank you. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like subscribe and leave it a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok and X. It's all sexwithemily and I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sex with emily.com for free guides, articles and more ways to prioritize your pleasure.