Why You Feel Empty After Having Sex (Even When You Want It)

Stonewalling is like this wall, right?

It's—

yeah, there's no receiving, there's no giving. It's almost like the bridge of love gets torn away. That's kind of what it feels like in an instant when someone's stonewalling you. It's also like stonewalling can be part of like a silent treatment, stuff like that, which—

see, that just even hearing that, yeah, made me fill up with such anxiety. I don't think I could handle that. And I've often said that with you, I've noticed your pattern of knowing stonewallers.

Yeah.

I think that I grew up with a stonewaller and that it did. I did.

You did.

And that I think that I have like, it scares me to think that someone could just cut like that.

Yeah.

Right. We all different tolerance levels. Just to give you a reaction to that. But then you, you get that. You're like, knock, knock. Are you sure?

I keep knocking.

I'm like, yeah, I will never talk to you again.

No.

Interesting how different we all are with this. Why is it that some people expect pleasure and others feel like they they have to earn it? And why do so many of us prioritize our partner's experience over our own? And how do the earliest relationships we had, the ones we didn't necessarily choose, shape our capacity for intimacy now? Well, in this episode, we're exploring the roots of the pleasure gap, the emotional, psychological, and nervous system level patterns that shape how we experience connection, sex, and self-worth. Joining me today is Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a licensed holistic psychologist, a body-based trauma expert, and the author of Addicted to Drama. He's helped over half a million people worldwide break free from stress, trauma, and drama with his signature somatic approach. We talk about how childhood dynamics wire us for what feels familiar in adult relationships and why we often repeat old emotional blueprints and how those patterns can keep us stuck in dynamics that feel one-sided, disconnected, or even performative. This conversation is about reclaiming your right to feel, to receive, and to truly know your own pleasure without guilt, shame, or apology. So if you've ever found yourself asking, why do I always end up in this kind of relationship? Or why is it so hard to feel good? This episode is for you. All right, let's get into it. So if we talk about people who repeat patterns, people always, oh, you're repeating patterns. I don't want to repeat. Oh, I'm dating my father. I'm dating my mother. What does that mean? People say that like, oh, my mom always used to say to me, oh, my first husband or my dad was like, it was like just like my dad. I'm like, well, what does that mean?

Yeah.

So when people say repeating patterns, I would love to break that down so we can actually know, am I repeating a pattern in my relationships?

Yeah.

That is really just mirrored from my childhood but isn't serving me as an adult?

Yeah. Well, if we think about our nervous system like a record, a recording device, right? And it's constantly recording the information and creating shortcuts. So it's like, you know, if you're walking through a forest and you see like a ruffling in the trees and then like you see some brown fur, You know, it's a shortcut. Benji. No, you go, "Fuck, it's a bear." That's called the cognitive shortcut. And that helps us react faster and make decisions better. But at the same time—

We're not being chased by a bear anymore.

Well, we may not be. It may not actually be a bear. It may just be a dog or it may be a koala if you're in Australia, whatever. But the whole point is, is like our nervous system records from the moment we're born, actually right before we're born in our third trimester, which is interesting, but it's recording all this information. So the chaos, the anger, the rage of our parents, the love of our parents, whatever it is that we experienced in our, especially in the first 2, 3 years, is all being recorded. And that becomes our expectation of how other people are or how the world is. And we start to act in accordance with our expectation of how other people are, how the world is, and what we believe is the most like true and familiar way of being. So if like we, that's why I like that great saying, we'll always choose a familiar hell over a new experience. It's also energy of me. It's familiar energy.

Yeah. So it's a recording. So 3 weeks before you're born, third trimester.

Third trimester.

Third trimester. You're in your mother's stomach. And at that time, you press record. You have a little recorder, right?

Your nervous system's online and starting to record.

I'm just drawing a picture. So you press record, and then your mom is upset about something or fights with your dad, or she eats, she smokes cigarettes, or she's taking drugs, or she's depressed or something. And she's worried and scared about the baby and whatever. So then you press record and then you come out of the womb and then you're shot into the world and then maybe like it was a difficult birth. It's hard getting your head out. Your head got one of those little dents in it or something.

Oh, shit. I hate when that happens. But yeah, you know what I mean?

Like, that is when it starts. So every single thing that's happening for about the first— well, forever, but we're talking even the first pre-verbal.

Yeah, we're talking pre-verbal.

3 to 2 years?

Well, it, yeah, preverbal, but it's also like before what's called, um, the autographical memories are formed. So like autobiographical memories are the things that like we remember, like I went to the grocery store. All of that happens around age 2 to 3. So we have something called like the implicit memory system, which is the same part of like riding a bike, right? You don't have to think about riding a bike, you just do. That same part of our memory is taking in all of that information for the first couple of years, way before we have the part of our brain developed to remember autobiographical memories. Then we're like, oh, I went to the grocery store.

I had a scary dream.

Do you remember your birth?

No.

I don't either. But it was shitty.

We're talking about our life, right? But when we're talking about patterns, just so people know, even if you can't remember, certain things. We're going to get to what the patterns are now. We're going to recognize them. But what we're saying is it starts so young that when people are like, everything was really easy, there was things that happened that have shaped who you are today and the way you think today and the way you react to things. And then we had certain needs. We had certain things that needs that had to be met as well.

Yeah.

Is what I understand, too, from like you're crying as a baby in the crib. This is how I learned to understand attachment. So I'm crying, and then my mom could either come up with a bottle and with the right time, or she's like, no, we're going to let her cry. And that happens 1,000 times. And so I'm like, when I cry, the bottle shows up or it doesn't show up. And so I think I'm alone. I'm going to have to just take care, soothe myself.

Yeah, that's definitely a part of it. I mean, when we're born, our nervous system is not fully developed. So the part of us that's as an adult, like I'm saying, we're stressed out, we're driving to Coachella or wherever, I don't fucking know. And people are honking at us as adults. We're like, you and I, we're gonna be like, okay, we're gonna take a few deep breaths, right? We're gonna regulate ourselves. It's not a big deal. It's just traffic. If we're late to Missy Elliott for the first 10 minutes, there's still whatever, whatever. We have all these skill sets to regulate and cope. With stressors. As infants, we do not have that. We do not have the ability to do that for ourselves. So we have something called co-regulation. It's where our adult figures come in and they do that for us, and they regulate our nervous system as infants, and they help us if there's a lot of—

Give an example of that, because I think that this is where the rubber is, that rubber meets the road, is that a lot of us didn't get co-regulated.

No.

How we do it too.

55% of us did.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, we did?

Yeah. Oh, 55 to 60%.

We got— we got— well, okay.

Yeah. And it— that doesn't mean we all had great childhoods, but at least in the beginning we got—

in the first 2 years we were co-regulated because when we were crying, someone held us.

Someone held us and they were regulated. That's the, the trick here is like, if your parent is— or my parent, for example, was, um, hospitalized after I was born, and got severely injured in the birth, was like really anxious about the injury that she, she had. My mom had while giving birth to me, like that level of anxiety, that level of depression of being in the hospital, all of that affects the quality of how I was held. So that's a great example of like, okay, yeah, I was held, but the quality of her own, like, softness, ease, comfort was not present to then just, like, install it in me and my nervous system. So now you know why I'm anxious. But, like, it's, it's a little bit complicated, but essentially it is like, no, I, I, yeah, yeah, we learn from our caregivers how to support ourselves. And how to regulate. And if we didn't learn that, we don't have that in our body to navigate stress or anger or worry or sadness. Emotions. Yeah. Or hold or express our experiences. Yeah, absolutely.

I feel like when we talk about patterns and childhood issues and trauma, people sometimes get caught up in the remembering, oh, but my parents were always there and they were so good and they came to all of my games and they loved me so. And we're actually talking about something on a body level that you won't even be able to remember. And so it also allows you to make absolve perhaps some kind of anger or worry or blame you have about parents. It's just being alive. Well, granted, your parents might have sucked. We're not talking about that. We're talking about, like, this is us taking responsibility for a lot of stuff happened today as an adult. Here's where I can understand my patterning and my nervous system. And once I do, this is how it's showing up in my relationship. I'm dating the people I'm choosing.

Yes.

The sex I'm having.

Yes.

So that— right.

Absolutely.

So I love this grounding in that. Yeah, it's good because then we get why it's important. Because you can't think your way out of a pattern.

No, no. You didn't think your way into the pattern. You experienced your way into the pattern, or experience happened to you. And it's not just what happened to you. Trauma is not just what happened to you. It's also what didn't happen to you. An emotional desert is trauma just as much as, like, a parent who is overbearing, overwhelming.

I love that distinction. Can we stop there for a minute? Yeah. I think that's so important that a trauma is not only what happened to you, abuse, all these things, but what didn't happen. So maybe you needed to be self-soothed and held, and you wanted someone to show up and it was neglect. So people often think of trauma like, I was hit, I was this. But no, it's like what you needed and wasn't given to you.

Trust, security, laughter, play, love, all of those fundamental needs.

Who had all of that? Anyway, so I think that's interesting. So then we go to where we are now.

Yeah. How it shows up in our relationships, intersects, and it shows up more in our romantic relationships.

I always think about that because my friendships are— but for some people, it shows up in friendships and not romantic relationships. Right.

Well, less so. That's less common. It certainly will show up in some ways in which we interact because— yeah, because one of the things is it shows up in how we address stress. That's the thing about attachment theory is like we always blame it on like it shows up in our romantic relationships. Romantic relationships are often where we're engaging with the most amount of stressors, like our critics, our insecurities, all of those things, having to constantly navigate someone else. That's a stressor.

That's so interesting because that's probably for me why it's shown up more with work.

Yeah, absolutely. It will show up in how you show up at work, how your relationship is with work.

So that is so interesting. It's where you bring up the most, where it triggers them, where you get triggered the most is where your trauma is going to show up. So maybe your friendships aren't triggering. For some people they are, but typically it's in relation to a romantic interest because, like, often in our friendships, we're not together as much, right?

We don't live together. We're not navigating as many components of life. And so, like, Like when you and I hang out, we're saving the best of ourselves for each other sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. Except when I get really hungry or something.

Oh, the hangry. And then we just give you a breakfast burrito and we're good to go. Right. But, you know, we're saving our best and we're using each other as a support system. And in our relationships, our romantic relationships, yes, ideally we have each other's support systems, But also there's so many other components, so many other factors of what a relationship—

and this is why living with somebody makes it so much harder. And that's why I think living apart—

oh my God, you love living apart.

Well, because think of all the things that come up when you're living in proximity and then you're raising a child if someone chooses to do that.

But if you are not living in the same place, such a component, it's so—

you're not as rubbed up against each other and navigating life as much. It's also avoidant, perhaps, to not want to mingle. But I don't think we We should all be co-mingling everything all the time.

It's not for everyone. I love, I love cohabitating because then you get to address it and work through it ideally. And if, if you're like both growth mindset oriented, if not, good luck. Yeah.

But growth mindset oriented could also mean I've grown so much, I've realized that I really love my space. Yeah.

And I don't wanna live with anyone.

Should we, let's talk about some of the Patterns. Well, I love breaking down the pattern so people will get it.

Yeah.

Because look, y'all, we asked you all this.

The theory is complicated. And if you didn't go to school for psychology, we geek out on this stuff. We geek out on it.

We started thinking, we were walking here. I was like, I actually think that after 20 years of educating and talking about sex, and I've always tried to, like, you can talk, you can all listen, and I hope you do to the podcast for 20 years. A lot of information in there. However, the stuff that's like stuck in the trauma and the patterns is really a piece that people are going to have to work through if they really want the best sex of their life. Yeah, it's missing. And I love uncovering that stuff and talking to you about it. But for you, you're like, I've been talking about this forever. Like, let's talk about the sex. So it's just funny because I'm like, but people have to understand, including— but how our bodies, you know, are keeping us from relationships and orgasms too. I think stuff that you can't do this sex position for. You might have more fun that night if you do the wheelbarrow position, but the next day you're still going to be depressed and feel like—

And maybe sore.

Avoidant and sore if you don't do it right.

If you don't stretch before the wheelbarrow.

Right.

But I think it's interesting because I think I grew up as a trauma therapist, deep. All my mentors, my teachers, my friends were all like, the experts in the world on trauma, and they would go from the direction of saying like, hey, to get better sex, if they even talked about it, which they rarely, rarely if ever did. I don't think I actually—

No one does, right? This is why this is being right here in this moment with you and I. This is the integration of it.

But if they did talk about it, they would say it's from heal the trauma to have the better sex. And I think it can go the other way around.

You can have great sex to heal the trauma.

You can have great sex that heals the trauma. It can dislodge the fucking, like, holding of trauma.

But I think it can coexist. But you're not going to fuck your way to healing your trauma. You're not.

Can I get that on a bumper sticker?

If you're evolved and if you've done enough work and you have enough body awareness and you can feel your emotions, then you can use sex as a tool. But if you're just going right in it through sex and you haven't done any work on yourself, you're completely disassociated. You watch a lot of porn. You might think you had amazing transcendent sex, but typically you have to have some knowledge of both.

Okay. Yeah, I respect that.

Okay.

Yeah. So we're going to read like a bunch of patterns. Should I start with people who've written in? So this is from Amanda. What's up, Amanda?

Hey, Amanda.

Every, every relationship I get into, I end up mothering the other person. At first, I love being needed, but in a few months in, I'm exhausted, bitter, and secretly angry that they didn't take care of me in the same way. Yeah.

Oh, man. She's like, I get a lot of nourishing through caretaking my partner. I feel so filled up. It makes me feel good to do that. But then nothing— none of my needs are getting met.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm so angry about that.

Yeah. I think this is the interesting thing because at first a manic might be able to say, but that's my love language. And I would say that's your trauma language, boo.

Yeah.

Because, and for this reason, it's really important. It's like, are you being the motherly provider, the nourisher, because that's actually what you want? And are you trying to model it for a partner to get what your needs are? And have been missing.

Yeah.

Right.

Rather. Or is she really like when she's caretaking her partner? Yeah. Is she filled up?

Yeah.

Does she feel like this is purposeful?

Yes.

She feels filled up. But it sounds like maybe in the beginning she does, or not even. What we're saying is she might have watched her mother taking care of her father, and that's what her mother did. So she thought that's what women do to get a man's love. And so she's found herself, I'm doing all the right things, but what I need isn't getting met. And I would say also, this is the crux, does she actually know what she needs? Because her whole life she's been caretaking others. Probably not.

That's such a good question. It's like, and you can just fucking Google, like, Google, like, what are the primary needs? You'll see, like, trust, love, play. Food. Food. Yeah. And go through the list and just like see which one feels clear in your life. Like, oh yeah, I've had that. That resonates with me. And which ones feel like an empty void?

Mm-hmm.

And it will be striking.

Like, it'll be really clear.

Yeah. I do this with patients all the time where I put up a PowerPoint of needs.

Like, there's like, like the hierarchy of needs or the—

not Maslow's hierarchy. That's why I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I think we should talk—

this is relational needs.

Okay, let's just— I want to walk through the whole thing for y'all.

So this is like safety. This is security. This is trust. This is connection. This is play.

These are like more acceptance, respect, prioritization, communication.

Yes.

So, okay, but this emotional expression is actually security, trust, acceptance, appreciation, emotional support, affection, respect, So Amanda, or any of us, might go through this and go, okay, well, I feel secure. Sure. I feel like there's a roof over my head and he's secure.

In this context is more about, like, is there a secure sense that you will be there for me?

Yeah.

Which is different than, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is, like, more like—

But that's how she might start when people hear secure. I'm just trying to break it down. Feeling safe and protected in relationship, both physically and emotionally. Like, I didn't feel protected in my last relationship because Yeah, I felt that they said they were going to do a lot of things.

Yeah.

Follow through with their word.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, that doesn't make me feel safe.

No.

And then we talk about trust. Obviously, that's about integrity and someone lying to you, whatever. But it's interesting to go through these and think like, oh, maybe she's not getting emotional support from her partner, or maybe she doesn't feel respect.

And I think you brought this up.

Good.

Can she?

Can she?

Because if we're not used to identifying our needs, and we act them out with our partners in a way that we're hoping will be reciprocated. The other question is, even if it was reciprocated, could you receive it and absorb it?

That's the other part of it.

And all of this, like, if we can't absorb it, if we can't identify our needs, if caretaking was what was modeled, and if caretaking was the belief of what could make us safe, right? All of these things, we will repeat it. We'll keep finding ourselves in the same relationship like Amanda is, where it's like, oh my God, I'm caretaking again, which feels good or feels familiar, which is an important distinction.

She's not getting her needs met. And then she probably might look that her mother didn't get her needs met here. This is just—

we're just guessing.

So the first thing is look at what those feelings are, because I am guessing that most of us don't really know exactly what it is that we need until we identify it. And then we've learned to communicate to someone who thinks they're doing all those things. Yeah, I make you feel safe or I make you feel loved. And then you got to give them examples to break down and be like, 3 times a week, I'm going to need you to— this is where the— but this is the work that we talk about that could actually work if you're with a partner who has a growth mindset around working on the relationship.

And I always like when you go through that list of needs, we should post those needs. Yeah, we'll totally post those needs. And one of the things to identify is what has been—

if you're watching us on YouTube, we could flash up those needs on a card.

We'll flash it up. We'll flash some. What has been the missing need in the driver's seat of your life? Meaning one, it's like the unmet need in the— in the— with your inner child has been in the driver's seat for a long time, especially in your relationships.

What would you say? Right. What would you say? Do you think we all have a few?

Oh yeah. Like mine is like not being known, not really being known. My need is to be seen. Prioritized. Seen.

It's probably to be prioritized, to be appreciated, to be accepted. Yeah.

And different, different theories have different words. No, no, no.

I think it's a, I think that's adjacent though, but I wanna hear that your primary need is to not feel, feel like you're missing something.

Is to be seen and experienced. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. That's your main one.

Yeah. And because that was really missed and not, not because like they're, was a malintention. It's because there was preoccupation.

They didn't know how to.

They didn't know how to.

Okay, this is so—

and so that became the driver of like whenever it even smelled— first of all, I would seek partners who couldn't meet my needs, who would even tell me having needs was too much, that I was too much. And I'd be like, hey, do you think when we talk you cannot yell at me? Like that as a fundamental need. Or like, do you mind asking me questions about how I'm doing once in a while?

And they just couldn't do it.

They're like, you're too much. And I'm like, okay, so you're creating this scenario, you're creating the scenario over and over again. Yeah. And it reinforces the same not being seen, not being heard, but also a hypersensitivity to it. So if that, that inner child who's wounded with the missing needs is in the driver's seat of our life, It also means we're on the lookout for it, right? So if like a friend, like if you didn't call me back in 2 hours and I'm used to you calling me back, I'll be like, is she mad at me? Like, or I didn't feel seen. I'm upset because you didn't follow up and ask me how my day was today, which you're entitled to. It's like those type of things.

We become hypersensitive to something and kind of, I feel like put it through the— I do try to get back. I feel like it's important for you, for me to get back to you.

Yeah. I like it. I know. Thank you for doing it.

But I know I know that you're the friend. I have some friends who are like, I don't care. I'm like you. I don't get back to them. But for you, I feel like it matters to you that people get back to you.

And I feel seen by it.

It just reminds me that my friend Jen feels like that too, and I haven't gotten back to her. Hold on. See, I'm working on this stuff because I don't get back to people. It's not my nature. That's my avoidant nature is I actively, not consciously, but I don't get back.

Yeah.

So I want to—

What was your missing need? Like, what would you say is like—

That's what I'm thinking right now. What is my primary missing need? I would honestly I think security.

I think that makes sense.

Emotional support, for sure. Having someone to turn to for emotional support. Yeah. Prioritization.

Yep.

Feeling that my needs were and desires were taken into account.

Yeah.

And I think communication, open, honest sharing of thoughts. But I would say the big one would be, I don't know, security and trust.

Yeah. I mean, we've talked about that for you.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

Feeling that and being—

and like the repetition of even dating people or having work relationships or other relationships where they aren't like consistent, they aren't stable, they aren't secure.

I keep working and dating people like that that are not secure, consistent, and stable.

Yeah.

And that is because that's so interesting because, yeah, I didn't have that growing up.

No.

And I wouldn't even recognize. But it's so confusing because I'm like, I know what that looks like.

Yeah. And it's just like a hard thing because it's like on the other side, you like— we've— it's so easy to blame the other person.

I know. And I try, really try not to.

So I just— just that it's easy to blame the other person and actually abandon our own missing needs even more.

That's when we become like the victim and we're blaming—

become the victim. And we are at times truly a victim to other people's patterns. Should we read some more?

Yeah.

Okay. Oh, this is from Mark. I always fall for the person who travels a lot, isn't ready for a relationship, or just got out of one. I tell myself I like the chase, but really I'm terrified of what would happen if someone actually stayed. Who likes the chase?

Wow. A lot of people like the chase.

Really?

Oh, my God. Yeah. People who are unavailable. This says to me people who are unavailable so you won't get abandoned, right?

Yeah. I think it's more of that avoidance structure.

Yeah. Avoid it. This would be me in a variation.

Do you like the chase? No, I've never known you to like the chase.

I don't like the chase.

No, I don't. Do you like being chased?

No, I'm more about— Yeah, I mean, sure. I like to feel loved and adored and hot. Someone wants me. But I think I date people who are unavailable, or I know they're like— it's like there's going to be— my mom calls it the fatal flaw of yours. She's like, oh my God, what's his fatal flaw?

Every time I tell her I'm dating someone like the X factor, there are a lot of people who just got out of a relationship who are not actually ready. All of those factors are true. And I think that the and is a really important one. It's like, okay, if you keep finding yourself in those situations, how available are you truly? And it's not like, I want a relationship, I'm available for one. It's actually deeper. It's reflective.

Can you explain what that is? Because when people are like, no, I'm totally ready.

Yeah.

Because I feel like I used to say, for my 20s, this was my pattern. I was like, everyone's— every guy I date is emotionally unavailable. Emotionally unavailable. I didn't even know what that meant. I just said it. And then I realized, oh, I'm emotionally unavailable. And then that's when I learned how to do the work. So what does that actually look like? Would you explain that?

Yeah. I mean, okay, so I think it's easy enough for us all to be like, I'm ready for a relationship, or I'm the one who's committing. But if they— yeah, Mark is right. Like, if someone else showed up and met them, Could they sustain connection? And that looks like all of a sudden, like, I'm checking my phone, or all of a sudden I'm thinking about my next vacation, or I'm thinking about the future with us. I'm not actually in the present with them. I've gone on enough dates with guys who, like, they're like, I'm looking for a relationship and I'm secure. And I'm like, great, where would you like to have a date? They're like, oh, I'm really busy this week. I'm like, oh, so when someone actually meets you where you are, you can't, you can't sustain.

This is a perfect example. Like, no, I'm ready. I'm super ready for a relationship. And then they're like, I don't know, I got to get back to work. It's crazy. My dog died. My grandma died. Remember there was someone that it was like everyone died in their family. You're like, come on, that many deaths?

You're just not available. You're just not available. And it's like availability and sustained intimacy is hard. I mean, here's an example I'll do with a client, like, who'll come in and say the same thing. Like, pretend you're Mark.

So, God, I keep falling. I keep meeting all these people and they're amazing. And then I find out they live in Singapore or they travel 3 times a week and they're so busy with work that they don't have time. Every person I meet is just not available.

Yeah.

Or they're just getting out of a relationship. Or they're—

Yeah, that's so difficult.

That's really hard.

I know, it's so hard.

There's no money.

Mark. I'm wondering if we pause there for a moment, take a few breaths, kind of, yeah, clench up your body a little bit just so you can feel where you are on the couch, and then release a little bit. Just kind of, yeah, move your shoulders, like, come back to you, because we know they're not available, but I want to find you first, right? As you find yourself through your breath, as you find yourself through, like, more weight of your body and movement, Right? Can you hang out here? Can you hang out in yourself? Are you comfortable? Yeah. Do you start thinking about someone else? You start thinking about like what's next on your day? Like how long can you sustain being in yourself? That's part one. And then as you're building the repertoire or building your vocabulary of staying present in yourself or what helps you anchor back into yourself, I might say to you, like, what's it like to be with me in the room? Can you see what I'm wearing? Can you see my hair color? Can you take that in? And I might say, oh, Mark, I notice as you start to take me in, you drift away. It feels like all of a sudden there's more distance. Did you notice that? So it's really this nuance, and that is what we're talking about.

That's the somatic.

And yeah, and all of that is reflexive happening below the awareness of your consciousness and is driving the car of your relationship, of your life.

I love it. And that meaning that when I'm Gary and I'm out— or Mark.

Mark.

Who's Gary?

Gary's the next guy on the list.

Mark is out with somebody. He's not recognizing that he's actually projecting into the future or kind of leaving the room and not really being as—

dissociating, disconnecting.

So that person doesn't really know them.

No. Oh my gosh.

And this is why this kind of work is so—

and this happens so much in sex too. I mean, like, I know you and I've had conversations, like, I find it— I get triggered, and this is my shit, when I feel like I'm having sex with someone and they drift. And, you know, that's their trauma. Like, that level of intimacy—

what you mean by drift?

Yeah, like they're, they just don't feel present. Yeah. It just feels like they're gone. Like they're not quite there with you. Or, you know what it's like when you're talking to a friend and you're like, are you even listening?

Yeah.

Or where'd you go? And that happens so often in sex and they are misses, right? They're misses of connection that often then trigger our early childhood shit. And so for me, it's like, that's why I'm sensitive to it. And I consistently dated partners where I'm like, Where'd you go?

They go, they're just like, hey, come back to me.

I'm here with you. And I know it's a safe place.

And typically during sex is when it shows up. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay.

Ideally, you don't talk about it while you're having sex. Bring it up at, hey, is this like, we're out to lunch. Hey, is this an opportunity? Is this a moment that feels cool, safe, that we talk about more our sex life?

So would you say that that has been your, one of your most common patterns when it comes to sex?

Here's what I would say is that a lot of the people I've dated short term are more present, and the people I have dated long term seem to be non-present. And I've tried to change it and fix it and support them and love them into more presence so that I could feel more seen and heard. And that's my own shit.

See, now I understand. I'm remembering all this when we first met.

Yeah.

And that makes a lot of sense in your patterning. Now that you know that and that it's just such a good way for people to think. Is that common? Because people tend to have sex like it feels empty. It doesn't feel connected. And that's why the whole, like, one-night stand thing that people always talk about or flings. It's funny because I actually can feel connected through most sex I have. I felt very connected because I went for so long having disconnected sex. So I have sort of an opposite thing that I could have great sex with this iPhone. But what I'm saying is I have the opposite thing when it comes to sexy connection because I think I know I lock into it because that's been my practice.

Yeah.

However, I have felt the disconnect relationally with the people I'm dating just listening to me or allowing me to feel safe, being consistent, following through.

You want to read some more?

Yeah. Okay, so then we've got, okay, I'm a talker. I want to work through everything.

Is this me? Are you reading me? Just say Scott.

Okay. I keep ending up with partners who shut down, withdraw, or say I'm too much, so I over-explain even more until we're both exhausted. That is you. Oh, shit.

Does it just say Scott up there? Yeah.

No, we'll call him Scott. How about Lil Scott? That's interesting. So that means that Scott is, you really deeply, deeply want connection with somebody, but the people that you're with are just like, it's like the stonewalling. They're like, nope, you're repeating that pattern. Like, you're not enough. You're too much.

Overexplaining is a trauma response. Overcommunicating is a trauma response. And this is the weird thing, because it's like, if those who privilege communication as one of their the things they love the most, sometimes that communication is, it's hard to say, but overcommunication. It's like there is a skillset on what needs to be said, how much needs to be said to be truly understood.

So would you say that sometimes you, AKA Scott, overdoes it? Communicating is really important. Most people aren't trying But there's a road where you, there's a world where you sometimes overdo it, but then you're also picking partners who can't even handle. So is there a world where you're with—

Both are true.

Both are true. So if you're with somebody and maybe like in our friendship, for example, like I love communicating stuff. Like your people you surround yourself with, like I wanna go through it, let's break it down, let's get into it. But for whatever reason, the people that you're attracting just don't have that skillset, that interest, that knowledge of how to communicate.

Yeah. I would say, yeah, communication is something that we learn. And there's something called open processing versus closed processing. And so like some people, when they need to navigate and deconstruct something and understand something, they go internal and they, they really work it out within, on a walk or a gym, they're thinking about it. And there are others of us who are open processors like me. And you, and we're like, I'm going to call you on the phone and I need to deconstruct this conversation I just had with my other friend. And I need to just say it out loud. I need to hear my thoughts. I need you to reflect it back to me. Oh my God, I'm so sorry how exhausting I am as a friend.

No, but see, so I'm the kind of friend, it makes me feel closer to you that I'm the friend that you can call to process things.

Oh my God, I love you.

To talk it through. So no, but I think that's why I was like, tell me more. Tell me.

I know this is why we get along so good. I want to hear you break it down.

I want to, and then I want to be able to support you in that way.

Yeah.

And that's a very particular person because some people just, they might jump into fixing their partners. They might say, why do you need to process everything?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I love being that friend.

Yeah. And it's not like a closed processor isn't processing. It's like my sister, who, you know, might be met recently, um, is a closed processor. Like, I've never— she's never called me to process something, but I will call her multiple times a day to be like, I'm— this came up and then this came up and then this came up. And she'll give such succinct ways of responding where I'm like, no, no, no, I have to say this and this and this and this and this and this.

Is it helpful though?

It's so helpful. Like, I call them, her and her partner, my editor.

Okay.

Because I will write this long text message about like sharing all my feelings and my thoughts and describing everything and asking lots of questions in response to something that's coming up in dating. And they'll respond back with a 2-sentence max.

Is that what it was? Yeah. Is that there are so many people who are like, no, I actually need a moment. When you brought this up, I need some space, which isn't always a bad thing to say. Like, I'm going to go to the gym.

It's great.

I'm going to go for a walk again because of how what they saw modeled in their home. I bet one of their parents might have been internal processors or it wasn't safe. And so they literally have to take need to take the time. And people like you and I would say I'm an external processor. I actually think I don't process on my own, and that could be a burden sometimes. Probably hard for people that sometimes I might externally process on people who aren't the right receivers of that processing. Sure.

We're both little Scots.

We're both little Scots. I over-cue and I contract stonewalls.

Yeah.

So anyway, I just think it's interesting, even just this nuance of how do you prep? Because relationally, in a romantic relationship, if you're like, we're talking about it now. You never talk to me. It also takes it on the partner who's an internal processor to recognize it. And the two of them together saying, well, you know how I am. Like, eventually they get like, I'm going to need to go for a walk. I'm going to have to take the weekend and think about it. Doesn't mean I'm not processing it.

Yes. And that's different than a stonewaller.

Okay, so let's talk about a stonewaller.

So stonewaller is like one of the four deadly sins. Four deadly horsemen.

Yeah.

The horsemen. Yeah, yeah, the Gottmans. And, um, it's like stonewalling is like this wall, right?

It's—

yeah, there's no receiving, there's no giving. It's almost like love gets— like the, the bridge of love gets torn away. That's, that's kind of what it feels like in a— in an instant when someone's stonewalling you. It's also like stonewalling can be part of like silent treatment, stuff like that.

See, that just even hearing that made me fill up with such anxiety. I don't think I could handle that. And I've often said that with you. I've noticed your pattern of knowing stonewallers.

Yeah.

I think that I grew up with a stonewaller and that it did. I did.

You did.

And that I think that I have, like, it scares me to think that someone could just cut like that.

Yeah.

Right. We all have different tolerance levels just to give you a reaction to that. And knowing that you can, like, But then you get that, you're like, knock, knock. Are you sure?

I keep knocking.

I'm like, I will never talk to you again.

No.

Interesting how different we all are with this.

And behind this stonewall is usually so much rage. Let's talk about anger. Yeah.

Stonewallers has a lot of unresolved anger.

Yes. There's usually under the stonewalling, I have found, not always, is usually trying to cap the rage. So like, and if you're like me, we're like the Stonewall, and you're like, hey, let's communicate this through. Knock, knock, knock. I love you. What's going on? Share more with me. And it's like you're pushing on their cap of the rage until the cap comes off and it's just like explosive, right?

Yes. And that takes on us or you or someone to be like, oh, this is when I have to Yeah, walk away.

Yeah, sometimes the stonewallers, it's their inability to say, I need space, and they just create this freeze and this, again, this wall, this barrier that's so—

it feels out of the blue too, right?

It feels out of the blue. It feels violent.

You don't know what's going to happen. They don't know when the gate's going to come down. That's a really hard one too. So what do we say to us is that we just have learned to kind of regulate ourselves in the presence of someone who's shutting us down.

Yeah. And if someone's even just—

this is— I just don't deal with them.

Yeah. And don't talk to a stonewaller when they're stonewalling. It's stop knocking on the damn stonewalling door or wall for that matter.

People in stonewalled houses throw stones.

They will if you keep knocking.

Yeah.

That's all they got. That's all they got. Right. And so I think it's really important to be like, okay, they aren't able to ask for the space that they need, but you need to give it to them. And guess what? It's also very manipulative. It's a way of maintaining control. And so it's the way that the stonewaller is maintaining control.

Yep. It's the way they see that you will react to it. Like, I personally wouldn't have that because I have so many other things, but that one is too.

And anyone who's trying to manipulate to maintain control means that something inside deeper feels out of control or did feel out of control when they were younger.

That's a great way of saying it.

Someone who is manipulating you with that anger and control, in control, and trying to control, tried to control through something like stonewalling, through stonewalling, through freezing, through not communicating, through not giving you any responsivity, through not moving through a process together, is trying to maintain control because somewhere inside of them, historically or now, they feel out of control.

It's a good one. It feels like we can find a little bit of ourselves or the people we've loved in all of these.

All of these or all of our past relationships.

All of our past relationships. Okay, ready? So how about here's the next one.

Yeah, let's do it.

I match whoever I'm dating. If they're into indie films, I'm suddenly obsessed. If they're fitness freaks, I start running marathons. I don't realize I've lost myself until after the breakup.

Okay.

So everybody becomes like a mirror.

Like they're a chameleon. This is the chameleon.

Okay. They're seeking to connect. They're seeking to connect with anybody.

This is someone typically who has not had enough time in their life and support to have a clear sense of who they are, a clear sense of self. And they feel like who they are is typically not good enough, and so they have to chameleon into whoever they're with to match, to sustain, to create a sense of relating and compatibility. And this is, you know, like, I'll just name it. It's— this doesn't mean you have borderline personality disorder, but in the borderline personality disorder research this is a typical pattern, too, of someone with borderline doesn't have a stable sense of self, and so they'll match and mirror other people and mesh into another person's life.

Yeah, it's really a self-esteem, self-worth. I don't really know who I am.

Lack of boundaries, that merging.

I'm going to merge. It's going to feel safe. You're going to like me because I'm not sure how much I like myself. I can abandon myself for you.

Yeah. It's part of the nature of navigating the dance of relationship connection.

We tend to do that.

Yeah, it's not uncommon, but in the more extreme version where you start to actually mirror, like, oh my gosh, I've never run before, and all of a sudden I'm a marathon runner because they are. That's more the extreme example of like, where'd you go?

Where did you go? Who are you? And then you end up perhaps in this kind of relationship you can also resent your partner because you're like, you're not setting my things. And now you made me do all these things for you. I'm doing all these things, or I gave up my life to do all these things, and now you haven't really paid attention to what I actually need. But we really haven't voiced what we need, or we don't know, or we let someone else take over, override that.

Have you ever done that? Like, lost yourself in a relationship?

I don't think so.

That doesn't seem like your style.

My style is, like, I'm so anti that, that I'm like, I would never— I, I personally, yeah, that sounds really scary, scary. And I'm probably not that— like, if they're doing something that I don't want to do, I will very clearly make it known.

That's a great boundary.

That's a good— because you don't want to see me bored. Like, if I'm living that interest, you do not want to see Emily bored.

It looks like you're at a party and all of a sudden you look over in the corner and she's like, we're leaving.

We're out.

But we just got here 5 minutes ago. We're leaving.

We're done.

We're done. And when you're done, you are done.

Yeah. So I can't fake it.

No, you cannot fake it.

There's other layers to this. I really can't fake it. My first boyfriend cheated on me and ghosted.

Okay.

Now I only feel attracted to emotionally unpredictable people. When someone is consistent, I feel bored and suspicious. So here, like first boyfriend cheated on her and ghosted, which I could— that stuff hits deep. The first love.

Yeah.

And it might have also been before that.

Most likely.

Most likely the dad or the mom were not predictable. But basically what she's saying is that, yeah, I have this really early memory of being cheated on and then the person disappeared.

Yeah.

And now everyone that I find hot and sexy are completely unavailable and unpredictable.

Yep. Yep. This is the interesting thing, right, about what we find attractive sometimes is the trauma tingles.

So trauma tingles. I love the trauma tingles.

Oh my God, I got this butterfly in my stomach and it means I'm in love. No, girl, it's your trauma tingles.

It's your trauma tingles.

You know, it's like check your trauma tingling at the door. Check your trauma tingles at the door. And it's an important distinction.

Do you ever sex that? Like, I don't know if these are butterflies or trauma tingles. Could you make trauma sexy? I bet you could.

I'm working on it. I'm writing a little novel about sexy trauma. Sexy trauma? No. What the fuck?

I'm bringing sexy trauma back.

I'm bringing sexy trauma back.

No.

Well, I don't know.

It's so important. I mean, not to make it sexy, but to make it relatable.

I try to make it playful.

Yeah.

I definitely, sometimes when I'm lecturing about trauma, I'm rolling around on the ground doing examples of what— I don't know, whatever.

I think you should do the trauma tickle dance. Yeah, I don't know. But this is interesting. And when someone is consistent, it's funny because we were talking about, personally, I crave consistency. I know a lot of people do. If someone's not consistent, I have mistrust of them.

Of course.

But this person, she's like, no, they're inconsistent. This means I can— it always keeps it exciting, or I get to chase them, or I may not be hurt again in the same way I was earlier.

Absolutely. We're repeating the same pattern over and over again. And I think it's really important to say if boredom— and we were talking about this earlier— if boredom in a relationship is a turnoff for you, and so you keep finding, I don't know, the roller coaster of relationship, that's not what we would consider healthy. That's more like an addiction to drama.

Yeah.

It's like when you're—

People should read your book about that. It's called Addiction to Drama.

It is called Addiction to Drama. Addicted to Drama.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it's a really important thing because I remember coming out of a really funky roller coaster of a relationship, and a friend of mine who's a dating expert who's been on on the show, actually, Amy Chan. Yeah, was like, hey, I, I want to connect you with this person. I want you to try out some dates with them.

By the way, try out dates or go out?

Go on dates. Go on dates. Try out this human thing. Try out this whole dating thing again. And she was like, text me when you're bored because I'm gonna remind you this is your trauma tingle searching for more stimulus, and that boredom could actually be the sort of doorway into better intimacy.

So you text her from the bathroom when you got on the date, you're like, I'm bored.

Bored. What happened? No, I was bored, but I don't think it was. No, but I don't think it was my intimacy issue.

Checking ourselves when we're actually bored in a long-term relationship or any relationship. Maybe it just means that, yeah, stability. And this is not that comfortable to me to actually feel like someone says what they're said they keep their word. They do what they say they're going to do. They show up for me.

We don't get the whole hormonal cocktail as much when things are sustained as we do when things are on that roller coaster.

I just thought about a harmonica. Like, if there was a hormonal harmonica, like a harmonica where you could just play out your hormones.

So anyways, this human being, this human being, you got to kind of build your tolerance for boredom.

But I feel— Oh, you get bored easily in relationships and in life. But that's like— but then also that could be a— something.

But do you— I mean, nobody likes, quote unquote, the drama, but do you like—

No, I don't like it.

I know. And you don't like fighting and you don't like—

No, I don't at all like fighting or drama. That's why I just—

you really, really—

that's the ADHD part, I think. But I hate saying I was ADHD before, like, for many years.

Well, I think boredom is not a great word. But we use it, right? We use it as a catch-all.

More layered.

Is it like, am I not feeling like stimulated enough by them intellectually, emotionally? Am I not doing enough activities outside the house? Is there not enough novelty? Or is boredom representative of I feel safe and something inside of me is not I love this. You know what I mean?

Because boredom could be so many— all of those things. The flip side of boredom, right, is that you're being stimulated in the right— in the ways that you want to be stimulated.

Yeah.

This person is interesting. They see you, they hear you, they come up with great ideas. Their life is interesting. They want to bring you along with them on a journey.

Yeah.

Or everything is the same every day, in and out. And you understand that that does lead to the monotony, which is why so many of us do crave novelty, because in a way, monotony is also safety. Boredom can also be safety, but we can only tolerate it.

And can you tolerate safety? And are you confusing not tolerating safety with boredom?

See, it's—

this is so nuanced.

That's the part. That's the thing. That's what we all try to balance here.

We are so complicated as human beings.

We are so—

so, I mean, I love that we're breaking down different patterns because when we talk about, you know, how childhood trauma shows up in your adult relationship, we're going to talk about sex. So unique.

Yeah.

Here's one from Annalise. On every date, I'm charming, funny, and dressed perfectly. They fall in love with the version of me I present, but later I resent that they don't really know me because I never showed them.

This is one that I completely recognize. The people who feel that they have to be perfect, they have to present well, they cannot be vulnerable, and their looks and their presence is what's going to give them love.

Yeah. And I want to say, like, especially in the beginning of a relationship, you know, bring our representative. Yeah, you want to— well, first impressions matter. And so of course there's a version of us that's not in our everyday, like, pajamas. Like, I didn't wake up like this. This is 6 hours of makeup. I'm just kidding. But you know what I mean? Like, we're presenting our, our a version of us to have first impressions. That's what happens naturally in dating. I mean, or like what I'm curious for you, like, would you just show up at a first date in your pajamas and your messy self?

I get messy pretty quickly, so I'm a little bit different. I maybe make an effort. I go all out for a little bit, but I'm pretty comfortable being my mess, I think. Yeah. So that's why I'm saying people who keep this going for a long time feel fear, I think, of being, I don't know, being a mess. I guess I don't have that perfection thing personally, but I definitely show up charming and great, but I pretty quickly show that I'm— and when I say messy, I mean like I've got stuff going on and this is going on with me that things I'm trying to figure out. I think I'm vulnerable.

Human.

I think I'm fairly human early on.

And I think that's an important distinction of, like, but you are charming, you are funny, and you're messy.

Yes.

And it's just like there's a titration of revealing ourselves in relationship, which is also okay.

You don't want to show up as everything right away. But I think what I'm hearing from this Annalise is that she shows up perfectly, but she's actually deeply afraid that if she— it's like those women I think about, like, in the— they do it now, who wake up in the middle of the night, put lipstick on or put their makeup on because their partner's sleeping. Yeah, like, that's the more like layered, superficial version of it. But like, everything in my life is perfect, my house is perfect, I've got it all together, and I'm deeply, deeply uncomfortable with showing any vulnerability, but any needs that I might have. I actually don't know how to ask for a need. I don't know how to to explain to you what I need, what I want, or any of my flaws. Yeah, I know many, many people like that.

Yeah, it is this delicate balance, right, of like putting your best foot forward when meeting someone. Because these are all—

but this is the people who are like, my imperfections are what— yes.

Yeah. So we all go delicate because I would guess Emily Morse isn't performing charming because no one would believe that. Right? I mean, they're like, even when we talk about narcissism, right? Charming. That is also true. Like, there is a part of them that is charming, that is very, uh, elevated, that is very energetic.

Yeah.

That's not— it's not like they're running around with 5 different personalities. I want to be really clear about that. When we say performing, yeah, right, we're extend— we're extending an aspect of ourself more as what's in the forefront. And then slowly we might reveal the curtains of what else is part of us.

I think that Annalise, her partner probably sees more than she thinks.

I would imagine so.

She's revealing. They know that we're not all just one way.

Yeah. And that's an important conversation of going like, hey, this is a part of me that I like also presenting. Unless you don't, which is important. Like, Annalise, if you don't like being charming, if you don't like being funny, if you don't like exhibiting that part of you, that's also important to know. However, I imagine you are charming. I imagine you are funny. And yes, you might turn up the volume on that in dating, but it is also important to let your guard down and let people know what else is part of you.

People want to know you, and they want to be there for you, and they want to see all sides. I think that's what we're talking about, is truly, fully showing up as our true vulnerable selves that are messy and have all the parts.

And that takes time. I want to really clarify that because we can be so hard on ourselves for putting our best foot forward. And you don't really know someone in a relationship until you're about 6 months in, developmentally speaking, of a relationship. That's really when you start seeing all of the pieces.

And it's like, you know, it's like a season for them to go through who they are.

Yeah. Yeah.

6 months to 9 months. Yeah. And people, you don't know the first month.

No. And on the third date, you can be like, hey, what's your biggest orange flag? Like, I love asking people that. Like, if, if, like, orange flag. Yeah. It's not like a red flag. It's like, hey, what's something What's something you don't like? You're so charming. You're so lovely. What's something you don't often let people know about you? What's a part of you that doesn't really get to, like, that's sort of less like in the public eye or less in the, like, in dating?

What would you answer to that if someone asked you?

Like, I don't organize a house well. Like, I, like, I have supplements all over my bathroom. Like, I don't put things away. And it doesn't bother me. But I make the bed, just so you know. I find the counterbalance. Like that thing, I'm a little messy and I don't cook well. Like, I'll just be upfront. Like, if you're expecting the gourmet meal, I'll order it.

Exactly. I'm really good at ordering.

I'm really good at ordering.

I'm so good at picking up food.

Yeah. And not great at cooking because That's not too bad.

I didn't even know those were things that you should try. I've never cooked or been neat.

I'm not neat and I don't cook. Although I can cook and I can be neat. I just don't want to be.

Don't want to be.

That's the reality. What about you? What are your orange flags?

I find that so interesting. I don't know. I feel like I wear my orange flags on my sleeves, so I actually don't. But that might not be True. Let me think.

You're pretty upfront.

I feel like I don't lead with, like, I cook or I clean or anything like that. That doesn't even seem like— that's obvious that I, like, really require a lot of alone time and a lot of space and independence.

Yeah. So that might, like— you might share that as you're moving through and just say, like, am I, like, a lot—

I've even said to them, you will hate me one day when we break up and tell me that I am super avoidant.

Give you enough, which I would then be like, wow, you're such a good communicator. I'm attracted to you now, even though you just said, like, the red flag.

I don't know what the orange flag— it's a really good question. Yeah, probably just— I think— well, I'm just going on feedback of years of dating.

Yeah.

And trying to be self-aware. I think it's that I often— maybe I'm not as available as they would like.

Yeah.

Or not as committed. Yeah, like two feet in.

And this is the thing for Annalise, of just like, what would it be like to reveal some of the aspects you're less, um, forthright about and just see how someone is with you and sort of start to build up that sense of confidence that someone will stay and be with you even in the many variations and aspects of who and how you are. Yeah, right.

And of all. Yeah.

And like, look, y'all, we all carry our shit forward into adulthood. Like, that's the real real. And it's so important to recognize your own pattern because that's empowerment.

Because once you recognize it, you can learn to shift it, learn to feel— to at least be aware of it.

Yeah.

And manage it differently next time. Maybe even— we're talking about attracting different kinds of partners next —and attracting different type partners.

You got this.

That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to Sex with Emily. And if you love the show, please like, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or a partner. It might just spark something. It usually does. You can find me on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, and X. It's all @sexwithemily. Oh, and I've been told I give really good email, so sign up at sexwithemily.com for free guides and articles and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. And if you have a question about sex, dating, relationships, any of it, leave a message at sexwithemily.com/ask. And hey, was it good for you? Email me at feedback@sexwithemily.com. I would love to hear what you're thinking.