Episode 102: Humor is a Choice with Andrew Tarvin

And hello everyone, welcome to episode 102 of the weekly Yes! And podcast. This is Travis Thomas. Today's episode is called Humor Is a Choice with Andrew Tarvin. So back to interviewing some inspiring people who are doing some really inspiring work. Andrew Tarvin is one of those. We'll get to him in a minute, but wanted to thank everyone for listening to the Weekly Yap. Again, episode 102. If you don't know me, I'm the host of the Weekly Yes And podcast, also the creator of Live Yes And, which is liveyesand.com, or you can follow me on social media @LiveYesAnd. If you enjoy the Weekly Yes And podcast, would love for you to go to iTunes and give me a rating or write a review. And flatter my ego as much as humanly possible. Yes, I would love that.

So here we are, episode 102.

I want to give a shout out to some friends of ours at OM Guatemala Retreats. A friend of mine works with this organization. They do these amazing retreats down in Guatemala, where also I have another dear friend. We've never made it to Guatemala, so I'm hoping that maybe this is the impetus. That gets Hollister and I down to Guatemala because OM Guatemala retreats, it's the yoga retreats that happen down there. There are 3 coming up this summer, July 8th through the 14th, August 19th through the 25th, and September 2nd through the 8th. They look amazing. If you go to the website, www.omguatemala.com, I know the OM is for Om Guatemala, but— It's a good website. Obviously, I'm trying to make it as easy for you as possible to find them. So, OM Guatemala or OM Guatemala Retreats, omguatemala.com. Make sure you check them out. You can mention that you found their information with Travis from Live Yes and. I don't know if that gets you anything, but it probably makes me feel good, and it lets them know that you listen to the weekly yap. So there you go. Check them out. Also, make sure you check out our events page. We always have another Get Unstuck in Ten Days program happening. You can find that information under events at liveyesand.com. All right, episode 102, Andrew Tarvin. I was going through videos on the Applied Improvisation Network. For those of you who don't know what the AIN is, it's a network, a global network of people who are in the field of improvisation like myself, who are doing work in the field even beyond just performance on stage. I've never had the opportunity to go to one of these conferences. It's a yearly conference, but I love watching the So I found Andrew Tarvin through the, the AIN Network.

He has a TEDx talk which is really, really entertaining and engaging.

He is the world's first human engineer. He gave himself that title. He started his own company called Humor That Works. He was a top-rated project manager at Procter& Gamble, and he's been a comedian that's performed all over the world as well as a best-selling author. And again, right, we get to talk a little improvisation. He started improvisation in college.

Yeah, I did.

And most importantly, he has been called a cross between Hugh Jackman and Conan O'Brien. Physically, that's what he looks like, or just Justin Timberlake eyes, which he talks about in his TEDx talk.

I can see it.

When you see him, you can see it. Yeah, it's a good time. So we talk about yes and mindset. We talk about the work that he's doing, and all in all, it's just a fun conversation. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Andrew Tarvin.

Hi, Travis.

And so we have Andrew Tarvin on the phone. You can check him out at AndrewTarvin.com. He is the world's first humor engineer. I love that. He started the company Humor That Works. We're going to talk about that. He left as a top-rated project manager at Procter& Gamble to sort of follow his passion and his purpose to do what he's doing today. So Andrew, welcome to the weekly Yes!

And?

podcast. Thanks, Travis.

Excellent. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat with you.

Absolutely. So, Andrew, I found you sort of watching some of the videos on the Applied Improvisation Network, and then I came across your TEDx talk, which was super entertaining. Then you were just really sort of speaking my language from a comedic, from an improv, from a yes, and standpoint. So just to kind of jump in, tell us about what it means to be sort of the first humor engineer and the work that you're doing with Humor That Works.

Yeah, happy to. So humor engineer is— it's a— if you've never heard of the term, it's because I made it up, created it. But it's really kind of the intersection of what I do and what I'm passionate about. So the most important word probably for me is engineer. I've always been an engineer, you know, as a kid kind of taking things apart and putting them back together again. and always playing with computers and always being obsessed with efficiency. I remember in the 5th grade getting really excited when I discovered that if you put all the like silverware together when you're loading a dishwasher, you can save like 20 seconds on the unload. You know, really obsessed with the— always trying to figure out how I can do things, you know, the least amount of work possible for the most amount of gain, all that kind of stuff. So always been engineering-minded. I went to The Ohio State University, got a degree in computer science and engineering, and after I graduated, I started working at Procter Gamble as a project manager and business analyst. What I realized at P&G was that while I was very, very good with computers, because you can be efficient with computers, I wasn't as good with humans because you can't be efficient with humans because they have emotions and feelings and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, those annoying emotions.

Well, exactly, yeah. As a stereotypical nerd, I didn't necessarily have the skills. set I needed to be effective with people. But I had started doing improv and stand-up in college because my best friend wanted to start an improv comedy group and needed people and forced me to join. And as I did that more and more, I started to realize that the same skills you need to be effective as an improviser are actually some of the same skills you need to be effective with people, whether it's in the workplace or at home or, you know, just kind of out on the street. You know, yes, and being one of those kind of key principles. So I started to explore that intersection of humor in the workplace, improv in business, happiness and productivity. Started to see that there was a lot of research around it. So it wasn't just me that saw these benefits, but there are studies that were done on the value of humor and the value of improvisation. And so started to, to do that more in my own work, found the benefit of it, and then started teaching other people that as well. And, and ultimately left P&G in, in 2012 to focused on Humor Networks as my training company and the speaking brand of getting this message out there for how people can use humor to be more effective.

So what was that like having that courage to step away from a great job and to believe that you saw enough value in this idea of humor in the workplace? So where did that leap, where did that connection come from that gave you the courage to make that jump?

Yeah, well, I, I'll say that being a project manager, I am relatively risk-averse, which people are a little bit surprised by. Like, but yeah, you left this job, or I was also a nomad for a period of time. Like, how did— how can you be risk-averse and like live out of 2 carry-on bags? And, and where that comes from is a little bit of planning and, and perspective change as well. So, the first thing I would say is when I decided that I think You know, when I was like, okay, I think I want to leave P&G, I created a list of all the things that I needed to accomplish before I could leave that would give me confidence that I could do it. So they were, you know, have X number of clients that I've worked with where I would take vacation days to go and work with a client, or I'd leave the office a little bit early, go do some work, and then go back into the office. So that was one thing, is make sure I have X number of clients, make sure that I have a website, make sure that I have some testimonials and some images of me doing it. Uh, and also save up money. You know, I wanted to save up enough money so that if, um, I didn't, if I wasn't successful, if I didn't make any money, that I wouldn't starve to death. I mean, I had to eat cheaper, but, uh, basically had that as a background. And once I checked off all those things from that list, I was like, okay, now I can leave. Now I have a reason to believe that I will be successful with this. And, uh, so that's when I kind of put in my notice with P&G and I stayed on a couple more months after that, just to kind of close out the fiscal year. And that was in June of 2012. So July 1st, 2012 was my first day kind of full-time doing this, and it's been that way ever since. So that's one of them, is kind of the prep work. The other thing about taking the leap, or anytime I've made a big decision, I kind of ask myself 3 questions. And I think those 3 questions are helpful in terms of framing what is perceived to be a big risk. The first question I ask, and it's What's the worst that can happen?

Mm-hmm.

The worst is always death, but after death, usually it's not too bad. So I figure, okay, if I leave P&G and say I fail miserably, or I hate it, I hate being an entrepreneur, I hate speaking, or whatever it is, I was like, okay, I can get another tech job. I figured with P&G on the resume, my network, the fact that I was a computer engineer with some social skills, I was like, okay, I should be able to get another job, so I'll just, you know, if I hate it, I'll get another job. The second question that I ask is, you know, when I'm old and gray, what will I regret more not doing? And I figured, you know, when I was lying on my deathbed or when I was 80 years old, I would regret not trying it, not starting out, you know, going out on my own and seeing if I could be successful with this thing that I'm passionate about. And then the third question that I ask is, what makes for the better story? I remember hearing kind of that, Maybe it's cliché or not, but if anybody wrote a story about your— like a movie about your life, would anyone care to watch it? Or if they wrote a book, would anyone care to read it? So I've kind of lived by that of like, all right, if I'm deciding between 2 things, what makes for a cooler story? Yeah. And I felt like starting my own company makes for kind of a cooler, interesting story. And even if it fails, it gives me something to talk about and to say that at least I went out and tried to do it.

Absolutely. So just to recap those 3 points, the first one being, what's the worst thing that can happen? The second one being not wanting to look back on life and having any regrets.

Yeah.

And the third one, which I love, is which makes a better story? It's funny. It's often working with a lot of people, whether in the coaching realm or as a mentor, especially when someone is going through a difficult period of their life or they're in one of the valley moments of their life. I often will say, wow, this is really going to be interesting in your book. Just that idea of it's the tough stuff. It's the difficult choices that end up making a much more interesting story down the line. So I love that that's one of your criteria.

Yeah. There's a great speaker named Jason Koteki. He runs basically kind of like— he believes in adultitis where people should return back to the play, the amount of play that we did as kids, and that people suffer from adultitis. I remember him kind of joking, he's like, speakers, and sometimes comedians and stuff, they're sometimes the only group that will hear something bad that's happened to you and be like, oh man, you're so lucky. You'll be like, wow, your house burned down and you broke your arm and your flight, whatever, this thing happened, you now have a new keynote written for you.

Right.

So it's like that kind of joke of like, yeah, this is going to be— it becomes part of the story. And I think that, you know, kind of one of the things that I talk with some of my clients about and people that are trying new things is that for me, failure is just data, right? It's just the idea that if you haven't succeeded, it's the growth mindset of Carol Dweck, right? If you haven't succeeded, you just haven't succeeded yet. And so if you go out and you try something and you don't do well at it, then you've at least, you know, hopefully you've learned something from it. And the yes, and mentality says once you've kind of built these experiences together, How do you bring them together and yes-and your paths? I think that's a big part of what humor engineering is for me. I didn't become a computer engineer so that I could do this later, and I didn't start doing improv so that I could become a speaker, but yes-anding those 2 experiences and expertise together into a new thing, it's now created an interesting passion and role for me, really.

Absolutely. I think your example there is exactly that spirit of of that yes, and mindset, which is not being able to control an outcome, but being able to constantly use what life throws our way and what situations arise and every experience that comes up and treating it as a collaborative opportunity compared to— even when it's disappointing, even when it's unfortunate.

Yeah, absolutely.

So tell me, for you, you got into improvisation in college with a friend. You guys started to rehearse a lot and do more shows and perform more on campus. When did the principles of improvisation or really the yes, and aspect really start to hit you in a deeper or larger meaningful way?

I think that it was certainly over time. It was an experience that You know, part of the value of doing improv and being a part of a class or a group or that kind of thing is that you're constantly practicing yes, and. And so I think that it kind of like started to seep into my life without even kind of realizing it. Just, you know, I started to become a little bit more positive and started to kind of think in that frame of mind of, yeah, how can I build off of this, right? It's the same as the corporate speak of like there are no problems in the corporate world, right? There's only opportunity. Yes, and is basically that same language as a way to look at the world and say, okay, how do I build off of it from here? I'd say that it certainly took some time, at least from a performance standpoint. I remember when we first started, I would be nervous the entire day. I could hardly eat the entire day of a show. Then did a few shows and got better, and then it would be like, okay, I couldn't eat for the entire afternoon before a show. Morning I was fine, but afternoon— It was tough. Then it got to like, okay, I'm good except for like the 2 hours leading up to the show, and then an hour leading up to the show. And then I got more comfortable with improv, and then I started doing more and more stand-up, and then it was the same way. Like, I had no problem doing improv, but then for the entire day leading up to a stand-up show, I'd be completely nervous. And, you know, just with that practice and repetition, it became more and more kind of second nature, to the point that it's like, oh, if you're like, oh, you need to go on stage and fill 20 minutes right now, I'd be like, okay, no problem. Let's go. I think in that same vein of probably in that same level of starting to be comfortable on stage is probably that same time I started to get comfortable with some of those insights and thoughts. Even still, there are times where I'm much better in front of a group of 500 than I am a group of 5.

Sure.

When the context is speaking. There's still certainly some areas of opportunity, times that I get nervous, and then times that I still have to I try to consciously fall back on that yes-and mentality.

Yeah.

So you have that experience in college. You gain that experience. You gain that confidence. You find yourself at Procter& Gamble, which I assume just kind of became this larger proving ground for all of these skills that you had learned in college. In what ways, in what kind of practical and relevant ways did you sort of carry that mindset How did you translate that into being a project manager at P&G?

Yeah, well, it started pretty simply, and a lot of times just for kind of myself. I remember having this experience where I was in a meeting, and I was bored to death in the meeting. The problem was that I was the one leading the meeting. I was like, if I'm bored while I'm talking, They've got to be bored listening.

Yeah.

And so part of it started with just wanting to enjoy my work more. So for presentations, I remember reading that Alfred Hitchcock used to include himself in pretty much every movie that he did, like either in the background or in the shadow or whatever. Maybe the modern-day equivalent is Stan Lee is in every single one of the Marvel films. And so I started to add an image of myself in every presentation that I did. Just for fun, just as kind of a way to lighten things up. I started adding more images to my presentations as a whole, and I started teaching some improv exercises to my team members and started adding jokes at the end of my emails, just as a way to kind of entertain myself in the workday, to kind of say, well, you know, I have to do this work anyway, I might as well find ways to make it more fun. And then at P&G, I proclaimed myself the corporate humorist of P&G. So that was my first experience of just making up a job title. And I wrote a blog internally about kind of some of the stuff that I was doing humor-wise. And I would, you know, if we were doing a team offsite, I'd be like, hey, can I lead, you know, 20 minutes of icebreakers in the morning? And we'd use some improv exercises for that. And then that went well, so then it was like, hey, can I lead like a communication workshop talking about improvisation and humor? And so people, like, they enjoyed the icebreakers, so they said sure. And so it kind of grew from there. And in that time during that research while blogging about things, that's when I found things like the Applied Improv Network and went to a couple conferences and saw that people were doing this in a very cool kind of structured way to provide benefits to organizations. And it wasn't just like, here's a fun exercise, do it because it's fun.

Right.

But it was, here's an exercise that we can now debrief and talk about so that you know how to be more effective as a listener, know how to more clearly articulate an idea to another person, How you can build relationships with people, etc. So, yeah, definitely, P&G was definitely kind of a training ground for that. I got great feedback from people both on what worked well and what didn't. And it was really kind of that, that working became the inspiration to be like, all right, if I can be the corporate humorist of P&G internally, then maybe people would like this externally. And that's when I started Humor That Works part-time as a thing that was just basically an external version of what I had started internally.

Yeah. So as you found yourself going into workplaces, going into the corporate world, you talk about this in your TEDx talk about you wouldn't think that introducing the idea of humor would be a hard sell, right? What are the negative effects of humor? You really can't find any. But as you're going in and you're presenting and you're working with cultures. If humor is such a common sense idea, what are you noticing as the real issues that are getting in the way in workplaces from them being sort of a humor-rich environment or just being healthy environments?

Yeah, I think that— I mean, I think part of it is a little bit of a fear from some people. One, because humor is just a tool. It is— there's a lot that can be used for good, but then yeah, if you— if people think about kind of the traditional kind of humor that they're used to kind of growing up, where it's a lot of sarcasm and satire and maybe it's poking fun at people, or if you think of like sometimes comedy clubs where it's like the topics tend to be, you know, they're sometimes on things that would be inappropriate in the workplace, people kind of have a fear and assumption that that's the type of humor that that means that they bring into the workplace. And so the fear is that, one, part of it, so I ran a study through my site because I wanted to understand why people didn't use humor in the workplace more. And the number one reason was because they didn't think their boss or coworkers would approve. And I think that part of that comes from not understanding kind of the styles of humor that they can use. And then also too, that for whatever reason, kind of growing up, we have this, we have this belief or feeling that work has to feel like work. If we're having a good time, then maybe we're not taking our work seriously.

Right.

And the truth is, is that because we are humans, because we aren't computers, because we have to deal with things like emotion, humor is actually really, really important. A lot of people think of it as a nice-to-have. Nobody hates laughter, as far as I know. No one hates feeling joy in their body. But they think that, oh, if I enjoy my work more, it'd be kind of nice, but it's not all that important. But the reality is that with the way that things are today, and the way that we as humans have emotions, it's important because of things like stress. In the industrial age, everything was about efficiency, because it was all about how can you produce the most widgets in the shortest amount of time, and how you felt that day didn't really have that big of an impact as you're stamping plates, or as you're running a line, or that kind of thing. Has a little bit of an impact, but not nearly as big of an impact as your emotions have if you are a, you know, a middle manager or if you are someone who has to, you know, do creative work for their, their job. Like those types of things are impacted by emotion because if you don't feel well, if you're sick, if you're tired, if you're burned out, stressed out, worn out, et cetera, you're not going to be as productive. And that's where humor is valuable because it allows us to kind of recharge. It keeps us engaged. It helps to improve our productivity. It relieves stress. If you think about all the negative effects of stress in terms of muscle tension and increased blood pressure and all that kind of stuff, laughter counteracts all of those negative effects. It becomes very, very important in the knowledge economy where our emotions impact our ability to get things done. Humor is a great way to get into a more positive, creative mindset.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's funny, I was just talking to a group of soccer players last night. Just this idea of when you try to play cautious or careful is when you tend to be more timid. You tend to be more tense. You tend to be more stressful compared to kind of being more reckless and free where you're more relaxed. There's usually more energy. There's a sense of fluidity to you. One idea that I've talked a lot about, especially doing presentation training over the years, is Don't mistake professional with serious. I think that speaks to what you're saying a little bit, how we often think to be professional, we come across as stiff and serious at the same time, and how there can be a sense of joy and fun and enthusiasm, yet still be professional at the same time.

Yeah. I think that's a great distinction. That's a great way to phrase it. Yeah. 'Cause I mean, if you look at examples of leaders who have used humor, it's like, would you consider Warren Buffett unprofessional, or Abraham Lincoln unprofessional, or all these different people that have talked about either the benefits of humor, been very clear users of humor in kind of a positive way? I think that's a great distinction. And the reality is that I work with some more conservative groups, some more serious groups, and I think a lot of times they appreciate that I'm an engineer and that I come The reason why I teach humor is because it works, not because it's fun. That's an added bonus, but because it works with humans. And that's why groups work with me, because they believe— if you are passionate about your message, if you believe that whatever it is that you're doing, it has an impact, is important, then you would do whatever you needed to, to have the most impact you could. And humor is one of those things because it helps to improve communication. Communication skills, it gets people to listen, helps them remember things longer, because it helps to relieve stress and increases productivity, or because it improves perceived leadership skills and helps to defuse tension, or because, you know, X, Y, or Z, all these benefits of humor, you would want to take advantage of them regardless of what you do if you want to have the biggest impact you can.

Right, right. Yes, there's nothing that speaks to corporations like Making that bottom-line connection. Yeah, you're exactly right. That sense of humor in the workplace, if people enjoy themselves, clearly they're going to show up more enthusiastic. If they're more enthusiastic, they're going to want to work harder, etc., etc. In full transparency here, Andrew, you know that I'm in our minivan recording this podcast, the Honda Odyssey minivan. That's not a plug yet. We're working on a sponsorship.

Working on getting that product placement in.

The great Honda Odyssey.

Perfect for podcasting and safety of the family too.

Exactly.

And just to let people know, I'm not driving while doing this podcast. It is parked. And also, another thing I can't control with the podcast is when the leaf blower guy is going to decide to go around. So if it sounds like there's a swarm of killer bees occasionally coming by the van, it's just the leaf blower guy. I can actually hear him right now. I just want to be completely transparent.

Hopefully, even as a leaf blower, you can still find ways to have fun with what it is that you do. I think that one of the other things that we talk about in my programs is that it's my belief that job satisfaction is 100% your own responsibility. When I go and work with organizations Sometimes it's on a consulting basis and building out programs for them, but a lot of times it's talking to individual— talking to a group of people, but at an individual level to focus on that it is a choice that they make.

Right.

So whether you are a leaf blower or you are a barista at Starbucks or you are the leader of a marketing department in a large company, how much you enjoy your work comes down to a lot in terms of your own choices. Like, obviously there's things that are going to be out of your control, but you control, one, how you react to things, and then two, you control things like how you do your work, what you do on your way into work, what you do on your way home from work. And they're all opportunities to be able to add humor, and you can do it kind of in your own way. And so that's one of the other things that I, when working with groups where they're like, listen, I agree that humor is valuable, but no, my workplace is deadly serious. And it's like, well, The truth is that no one can control how you think. For example, no one can prevent you from listening to a comedy podcast on your way home when you're driving in your fantastic Honda Odyssey as a way to relieve stress and show up more present for your family when you get there. One of the things that I do when I get bored going through emails, I'll start to read each of the emails in a different accent in my head.

Hmm.

No one can stop me from doing that. Even if I have a very serious manager, no serious manager can come up to me and like, hey, you're reading emails and interacting in your head. Stop it.

Right.

It's very much a choice.

Yes, until you start doing them out loud and then you've got to take that into consideration.

Right. Then maybe you're that weird guy kind of thing.

Yeah. I want to talk about that weird guy here in a second, but in your TEDx talk, you shared the idea that humor is a choice and I loved it. I think you've really been speaking to that the last few minutes. Again, share more about that, especially when it comes to our individual ability to choose for ourselves that regardless of our environment, we can still choose to have that healthy sense of humor.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's kind of like— one of my favorite comedians is Eddie Izzard. Love him. British comedian. Very, very smart. Great style. He has a bit called Cake or Death. And there's a little bit more context and everything to it, but it basically comes down to a series of people being asked if they would rather have cake, eat cake, or if they would rather die, right? So your choice is cake or death. And so it's kind of a joke of how everyone coming through the line is like, oh, well, I think I'll, I think I'll go with cake. Like, wait, are you sure you don't want death? No, I think I'll go cake. And I think in some ways, like, to use humor in the workplace or not to as a choice is to me as simple as the choice of cake or death, right? Would you rather enjoy your work more going into the workplace and actually enjoy going into it, looking forward to it a little bit more, finding things that make you laugh or smile throughout the day, improving your relationship kind of with your coworkers, and being a little bit— and thinking a little bit more creatively and outside the box, etc.? Or would you rather stick to a job that— and a way of working that you kind of just hate, you only survive because you work to live, and— Those 40 hours a week that you put in, you just, you have to suffer through so that you have the other 128 hours, you know, left for things that you want to do. And it's like, that's, that's the choice, right? Is deciding if you want to. Now, obviously there are things that once you've made that choice that we can make to make things easier, because that's, that's the number 2 reason why people don't use humor in the workplace is they say they don't know how.

Mm-hmm.

And it's my belief that, you know, I think people know how to, They've made friends laugh. They've made other people smile and stuff. They just don't necessarily know how to do it in a more proactive way. And so I think there are a couple of things that can help with answering that how piece. I think the first thing that can help is understanding that humor is more broad than comedy. So, you know, the definition of humor that I use is that it's a comic, absurd, or incongruous quality causing amusement. So comedy is part of that. Mmhmm. But humor is also something that is a little bit different, or maybe a little bit silly that causes amusement, that causes people to smile. So when I talk about humor in the workplace, it's not about making the workplace funny. It's about making the workplace a little bit more fun. And so once people kind of understand that, the barrier or the bar of what they feel like they have to do feels a little bit lower and feels a little bit more acceptable. Part of it is just being your authentic self at work.

Yeah.

I think the other thing is to kind of think positive, inclusive. There's 4 styles of humor. And one of the styles, affiliative humor, is great for the workplace because it's positive and inclusive. So when you can think of positive, inclusive things to say, so it's not about coming up with this great punchline that is a piece of sarcasm towards someone else, but maybe going, you know, making a meeting a little bit more fun by starting with a question, you know, that everyone goes around and answers. Or, you know, making Fridays a little bit more enjoyable because you have, I know some startups have Beer 30, where at 4:30 on Fridays, everyone just cracks open a beer and chats with each other. You can do that with dessert or a healthy food option or going for a walk. There are all different types of ways that you can use humor in the workplace, but think about it from a positive and inclusive perspective.

Yeah, I love that, being able to think about the idea that humor doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a comedian at work. I love in your TEDx talk, again, that you talk a lot about You clearly embrace your inner nerd, right? I believe that all of us are nerds in our own right. We all nerd out about specific things. Obviously, that brings a richness, right? It brings an authenticity and a richness to who we authentically are. The other idea I love is that I think when it comes to comedy and humor, Sometimes people often think that, well, I'm an introvert and so it doesn't really apply to me, and knowing that humor and comedy isn't really an introverted/extroverted thing. I can attest some of the funniest people I've ever performed with on stage, offstage, extremely introverted. So I think in the workplace, a lot of times too, we often maybe see people as quieter or more introverted and think that Maybe they don't have ideas or maybe they don't have anything to contribute, but often just the opposite when we give people the opportunity to share.

Yeah. I mean, humor is a skill. That's the other piece of the choice component of it is that humor is a skill, which means it can be learned. I know that because as I kind of share in the TEDx talk is I am someone who has had to learn how to use humor. I learned it by doing improv and then later by doing stand-up. And other people can learn as well by taking an improv class or simply by being maybe a little bit more attuned to kind of the humor that they hear every single day. So when I'm talking with groups and they're kind of like, and individuals are trying to learn, okay, well, how do I, you know, if I want to start, where do I start? And I think one starting point is just to kind of have kind of a thought in your head that whenever you make someone laugh or whenever you're in a situation where you yourself are laughing day to day, Kind of just look at it from an outside perspective for a second. You know, maybe a little bit later and, you know, at the end of the day be like, okay, what made me laugh today? What was it about that situation? Or what was it about that conversation? What was it about that experience? Thinking about that can help. Other times people, a lot of times experience staircase wit, which is kind of the phenomenon of like if you are in a conversation and then like later, maybe it is a couple hours later, you are like, oh my God, I could have said this thing. That is what I should have said was this thing. That is actually a good thing because it means that you have kind of the comedic instinct. It just, you know, with practice and repetition you need to shorten that time from having that haha moment from 4 hours later to 3 hours later to 2 hours later than happening in the moment, right? Because reflection on the past leads to action in the future.

Right.

If you think about it as you process these experiences and why the repetition is so important is that you get better and better at it. It's going to come quicker and quicker.

I believe that's called the George Costanza jerk store phenomenon.

Yes.

So Andrew, again, being respectful of your time here, one idea I want to just bring up with you before we go here. Obviously, for both of us here being in the US, the political climate right now, the divisiveness that is happening in our country over so many issues, from politics to social issues to things like that, the ability for humor to be a unifying idea, but yet often we see it used as a divisive idea. From your work and from your standpoint, what can we do? What role can humor play in sort of helping with the discourse or just how we are communicating and working with one another?

Yeah. I think you make a great point that it Humor can be used either way, right? It is, it is a double-edged sword in that it can be used for bringing people closer together, or it can be used to divide more people. And, you know, I think like you said, we see a lot of it, especially with sarcasm and satire. We use it as a way of, of seeing it to divide. And, and the problem with aggressive humor is that it, it can be cathartic. It can help us feel a little bit better. It can help us relieve some stress. But it does not change anything. Right? You can point out absurdities about things, but it does not lead to improving the situation. And that is where more affiliative humor, self-enhancing humor can be a little bit more— not only is it positive, bringing people closer together, but can also create a change. So I think part of it is intent, certainly, is how we can do it. And I think the other thing is, you know, groups— it becomes a lot easier to dislike people when you can very easily put them into a bucket. When you can say, oh, well, you are just a Democrat, or you are just a Republican, or you are just, you know, you are male versus female, or you are, you know, whatever these buckets that we try to put people into. And what humor does is allow us, allows us to recognize that we are more alike than we are different. So I was a nomad. I put all my stuff in storage and lived out of 2 carry-on bags for 18 months. And in the first 12 months, I had a goal of speaking or performing in all 50 states, because I am an engineer and I love checklists. And I was like, all right, If I'm going to travel, I want to do all the states. And I was able to do that and ultimately wrote a book about the experience called The United States of Laughter. And the reason why I wrote the book was I had these really cool experiences all across the country. And so the book is a story from each state that I went to. And I wanted to get the stories out there because all these different places that I went to, I found connection through comedy by making people laugh. Like when we get people to laugh, we kind of say, hey, we're on the same Right. Here. We are both human beings, and at the end of the day, no matter kind of like where you are and what you do and, and that kind of stuff, we are more alike than we are different. And, and maybe if we have that yes-and mentality, maybe if we have that recognition that we are humans and that humor helps us kind of define that humanity a little bit better, that we will treat each other a little bit better, that we will find the things that make us similar that we can kind of build off of, as opposed to finding things that divide us and, and drive that wedge deeper.

Wow, that's amazing. What an amazing experience that had to be. I can't wait to read the book because it sounds fantastic. Again, what I've been speaking a lot about recently is just the power of empathy. Obviously, you experienced a ton of that when you were on the road. Again, I think the big idea I'm on right now is this idea that there are no sides. We're really good at putting people on sides of an issue or putting people into boxes based on who we think they are and how divisive that is compared to really appreciating our differences and appreciating someone else's opinions, but not using that as a limiting factor or using it as a way to create sides as a divide between each other.

Yeah.

spirit of empathy that that had to be.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's like, empathy is a big part of it. And that's where, I mean, they've shown correlation between people who are more effective at humor and their emotional intelligence as well. Like, just to go back and kind of speak to another benefit of humor. But I think you're exactly right. And that's where like, you know, it's gonna, it requires that More and more people go out there and create that. It's the quotation that for evil to reign, all it requires is for good people to do nothing. For the people that want to make a change, how can we be a little bit more positive, get more empathy out there, create a yes, and or a humor mindset a little bit more, and look on ways how we can build things up as opposed to tear them down?

Right. Excellent.

Fantastic.

Andrew, I appreciate it. As your grandmother would say, WTF?

Yeah, well, it's fun. Yeah, it's a good time.

Yes, I'll let you clarify that real quick.

Yeah, so that is— my grandmother started texting me, and the kind of punchline of the whole story is that she sent me WTF in a text message, and I was confused. But it turns out she thought it meant, wow, that's fun. So it's kind of partially my belief that the world would be a better place if we all thought WTF like my grandmother and looked at the world and thought, wow, that's fun.

I love it. I love it. Andrew, thanks so much. Again, Andrew, for those of you listening, check out Andrew at andrewtarvin.com. He is the world's first humor engineer, the creator of Humor That Works. Andrew, any other way for people to find you or get a hold of you?

Yeah, well, I'd say if they're interested in the humor training side, they can also find more information at HumorThatWorks.com. If you want to connect with me specifically, or if you like puns, you can follow me on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. I think pretty much all social media is Drew Tarvin. I like to humor things and that's a great way to connect with me if people are interested in that, for sure.

Great, Andrew. I'll post those links in this podcast as well. Thanks so much for your time. I'm really impressed and excited about all the work that you're doing. Thanks for the time and keep it up.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for having me.

You got it.