89. Joel Goldberg: Small Ball Big Results - The Secret To Beating The "Big Boys"

Hey.

Hey. Welcome back to Bullpen Sessions. I am over excited, more than excited today to bring on this guest. Why? Because one, I get to nerd out on baseball. As I shared with you, one of the big changes with the Bullpen Sessions podcast with these Tuesday interviews is I'm going to be focused on interviewing current former pro athletes, those associated with professional sports. And this gentleman definitely fits into that category. Joel Goldberg is the founder of Joel Goldberg Media. He is also the Royals live in game, pregame post game host and he is also the host of the Rounding the Bases podcast which I've had a chance to be on myself. So I am excited to talk about the Kansas City Royals, excited to talk about small market baseball, how small market teams win the big, you know, get the big results, win the championships just like the royals did in 2015. So with that being said, I am overly happy to bring Joel on. Joel, how you doing man?

I am doing good. Good to see you again, Andy. It's, it's the podcast version of the home and home.

Yes, it is you. You had home field advantage last week and now it's my turn. So like I said, Joel, I'm excited because I think you and I share a lot of childhood dreams. The big difference is you actually lived years out in a way with the, the announcing which we'll get into and I almost got there with the professional baseball career. So let's just level set, you know, your jersey kid now living in Kansas City doing, doing in pre game, post game, in game host announcing for the Kansas City Royals. What got you into broadcasting it?

It's an interesting journey, Andy, because I don't really ever remember a time thinking of doing anything but this. And of course growing up, I'm a bit older than you, but growing up there, there really weren't TV pre and post game shows. We didn't have the options back then that we do now. Which is interesting in itself because I think kids coming out of school that want to be on TV like me, they have so many other avenues to pursue that, whether it be social media or. And you know, when I was coming up, it was pretty much being on the news if you wanted to be on TV or, or being at the games or calling the games. And that's really all I ever wanted to do. And I, I don't, I really don't remember what age I realized this, but I know that I can go back to somewhere around first or second grade and I pin it to that because my first grade teacher moved up with us to Second grade. I just remember driving her nuts coming into school every single day, pretty much reciting whatever was in the box score or whatever I saw on tv. And of course, back then, it was whatever you got in the paper, and then, you know, you were scouring the box scores and maybe some sporting news and things like that. I don't remember a time of. Of having a dream of doing anything but this, other than maybe a misplaced wanting to hit game seven, you know, game seven, World Series home run or something along those lines.

You know, I share with. I share this with you offline. If my mom were listening to this, she'd be laughing her ass off, because I was the same way as a kid. I would announce anybody who's listening who's under age 30, 35, we had these things called cassette tapes.

Yeah.

Where I would make these tapes of me announcing baseball games. And so that. That speaks right to my heart, Joel. So in a short amount of time. Cause I know it's a very long journey. Share with the listeners what the journey is like in broadcasting, because it's not like you go from graduating high school to New Jersey, going to college, and then, hey, I'm working for the Kansas City Royals. In fact, your journey took a route through my home or my land. Wisconsin, because you went to the University of Wisconsin. So talk about that journey. In the world of broadcasting, it's. It's different. There are a lot of stepping stones to get to where you are today.

Yeah. And I believe that, you know, my journey very much reflects that of most industries and certainly that of an entrepreneur. And I am an entrepreneur now, and I speak to a lot of entrepreneurs. It is those of, say, a startup. It is. It is the journey of a minor league baseball player, which I know will resonate less with maybe your audience and more so with you or those that are in your baseball circle. But I think there's a similarity, a commonality to all of it, in the sense I always say that the television journey begins in baseball terms like rookie ball. You're going to a small town, you have no amenities, you're making no money. It's for the love of the game, so to speak, or maybe equally or more so for the love of the. The journey or the. The passion to. To pursue this dream. So if you really have that passion, you say, I don't care that I'm in the smallest of towns. I don't care that I'm making. Making no money. What I care about is moving on and. And, you know, and climbing the ranks. And you just stay focused on that. It was small town stuff, you know, I, my, my first job out of television out of the University of Wisconsin in the Latter Part of 1994 was 13, $500 a year, which right now sounds like nothing, but back then it was nothing too. And I, I didn't, that was never, never once did it cross my mind that, boy, if this isn't enough money, I better not do this, I better do something else. That's the passion in the dream of saying, I don't. I may believe that I'm worth more, but if this is what it takes for me to get to where I want to go, then I, and this is what I'm going to do. So those were the early years and it was just sort of step by step by step. And, and you're right, I mean, I, I started that journey as a paid professional in 1994, and I really didn't land to the spot that I truly wanted to be until 2008. And I loved every stop along the way. And I don't even know when I got to Kansas City in 2008 if I knew it was the, the ultimate spot for me. But eventually you figure out, hey, I like this. This is exactly where I want to be. So it took a lot of years and, and now I've been here for 13, almost 14 years since then.

So what piece of advice did you give there? Go back to 94. I believe that's when you were in Rhinelander, Wisconsin, right?

Yeah.

For the, for the folks from the upper Midwest listening in the home of the Hodags, the mythical, mythical creature. When you were sitting in Rhinelander 94, thinking, you know, had you known it would be 14 years before you landed in Kansas City.

What advice would you give that 1994 version of Joel?

Oh, boy. One, take advantage of the drink prices. They're pretty cheap.

Up in Rhinelander. Still, still are. From, from the couple times that I've visited. No, but I, you know, I think a few things. One.

Big picture focus. You know, it's so easy to wake up every day when you have these dreams and you want to be successful of wanting to get to the end today. And you know, when you're not where you, where, when you're not at your end goal, destination, what do you do? You spend a good chunk of time thinking about where you want to go, which is healthy. But I think that, you know, big picture, you have to understand that this is part of the process. This is all process oriented. I mean, every now and then you use the big league baseball analogy here every now and then you might get a Ken Griffey Jr. That can break into the league at 19. And if they're really good, they might make it in at 21 or 22, but most of them, if they ever make it, don't make it till 26, 25, 27 years old. And that's just part of the process. And so I think for me, whether it's someone breaking into broadcasting or whatever the profession is, understand that where you're at today is not where you will end up. But if you keep doing things the right way, if you think big picture, if you try to just get a little better at something every single day and feel like when you lay your head on the pillow that you have accomplished something in each day, I still do that to this point. On the worst of days, bad days, I'm down. You know, we're all cooped up right now. Can I check, check something off of a list and say, you know what, I got better at that, or I accomplished this today. And that I think serves you no matter where you're at. And I think that those are lessons that I learned back then that still helped me to this day. I love where I'm at. I still want to keep moving forward, not necessarily in destination of broadcasting, but in growing in terms of my business and what I'm learning every single day. And, and I feel like every single moment in those early years were opportunities to grow. They were opportunities to fail and not have the pressure of failing. You know, failing in rookie ball is different than failing at the high levels. There is more of an acceptance of saying, this is what you're supposed to be doing down here. And so I think just understanding that every one of those moments in my early years weren't going to make or break me. And, and we have a tendency of putting pressure on ourselves, especially when we're younger and saying, if I don't get this right today, I might not get that opportunity versus sitting there and saying, embrace this opportunity, grow from it, the good and bad that come of it and push forward and don't look at it in a way of this is it, it's, it's, it's now or never. And just, just, just understand that all of these experiences are building blocks.

Yeah, you know, I love that you said the productive. Be productive, be present, be patient. I mean, this year especially, I've tried to live by that model of just show up every day and be productive, be present, be positive, be Patient, like, just enjoy the journey. And, you know, you think about, you know, I think about the journey of so many coaches. Nick Saban, I think, is a great example. We could argue he is the greatest college football coach ever, just won his seventh national title, which is absolutely insane. But people forget back in the 1970s and 80s, he was the, you know, tight ends coach at Kent State University. I mean, like, it is a long journey, and you have taken that road of one small market after another. You know, I think at one point you were in St. Louis, which I believe you were part of that. One of their World Series rides. Correct. And here you are today, you know, in Kansas City, in another small market when it comes to baseball. In fact, I totally failed to probably say the most important thing about you in the intro, and that's you're the author of Small Ball Big Results. And that's one thing I want to talk about. You know, being a Brewers fan and getting a chance to play for that organization. I know what it means to root for and play for a small market team. And, you know, when you think about that, Joel, let's just get right after it. You know, I think this applies to entrepreneurs. Right now, a team like Kansas City.

Finds themselves in the World Series in 14, wins the World Series in 15. I think a lot of people probably felt in 14, like, holy cow, fun ride. Let's get on the bandwagon. It may never happen again. And then here they are the next year back in and actually winning it. But in 2010 or 2009, they had 97 losses, 95 losses in 2010, 91 losses in 2011, and 90 losses in 2012. And all of a sudden things changed. Being part of that journey. Joel, what do you think happened inside the Kansas City Royals organization that allowed them to make such a drastic turn?

Yeah, it's a good question. And I think it's one that if you were there every day, whatever your perspective and role was, and I was there for every day, every season that you just mentioned, I would say that I did the postgame show for every one of those losses. But I may not have, because in the early years, we didn't even broadcast every game. I think our package was for 140. So there were 22 games that weren't popping up on ESPN or the national networks. They just weren't seen by anyone, which is unthinkable at this point. I mean, it was just a big deal to have a certain amount of games on hd. Eventually we started doing all of the games, but I was there for every one of those moments, or just about every one of those moments. And this was not a, an overnight. Oh, man, look at the small market Cinderella team that got lucky. Now, it might have looked like that a little bit in 2014 because it had been 29 years since they'd been to the playoffs. But I will tell you that when I showed up in 2008, actually the year before 2007, I was in visiting with the St. Louis Cardinals, Cardinals at the Royals at Kaufman Stadium. And I met Dayton Moore, who was in his first full season as general manager of the Royals. He had been hired during the 2006 season. And I remember introducing myself to him. I wanted to talk to him about Adam Wainwright, the star pitcher for the Cardinals and, you know, emerging star, I guess I would say at that point in 2007. But Dayton had helped draft him in Atlanta when Dayton was the assistant general manager of, for John Sholtz in Atlantis. So he had been in his house when, when Adam was in high school. And so it was a, it was a great way for me to meet Dayton. Little did I know that, that I would be working with him the next 13 plus years. And I remember saying to him, you know, with him being newer at the job, what are you, what are you hoping to accomplish? What are you doing? And, and he said, I'm looking to build a championship culture. And I, I remember thinking, oh, okay, I mean, cool, great. You guys lose 90 to 100 games every year. I don't know how that's going to happen. And obviously didn't say that to him, but that's what was going through my mind. The Royals had that reputation, everything that you just backed up or that, that you said there. And I remember saying to him, well, how are you going to do that? And he said, I'm not just Talking about the 25 gods in the locker room. I'm talking about the ticket takers, I'm talking about the vendors, I'm talking about the accountant, I'm talking about the security guard, I'm talking about the fans. And not just in Kansas City, but in the whole region. And if I were to fast forward from that conversation in 07 to 2015, early November 2015, the parade in Kansas City had 800,000 people at it, which just from Kansas City, we don't have 800,000 people living in the city here. But I remember the night before, you certainly couldn't get a hotel in the city because everyone that had come in from out of town had scooped up every Single hotel so they could be front and center. That was the culture that he was talking about. This didn't just happen overnight. This didn't just happen because of one lucky season. And thankfully they backed it up by going back, as you said, in 2015. So it wasn't just a one and done, but in a smaller market, they knew what they could compete with and who they could compete with. You're not going to win battles for free agents with the Yankees. You're not going to win battles for free agents with the Dodgers. However, if you invest your money on the infrastructure of building internally, building in the minor leagues, building better, better academies in the Dominican Republic so that you can, you can get these kids at 16 years old. And I think most importantly, and this is something that Dayton to this day is, is still doing, taking care of people, doing the right thing, which I write about in my book, and knowing that if you can't compete dollar for dollar, this is true in any business, you can compete in the way that you treat your own people, the way that you treat other people. And, and if you're consistent with that every single day, you have a chance, provided you've got some talent. So what I tell people right now, just to finish the long thought, the royals after 15, everybody says, oh, it was just two years and that was it. It's not that simple. If you look at the numbers that you just mentioned, they were fairly competitive in 2012. They were knocking on the door in 2014. They made it in 14, they made it in 15, they were competitive in 16 and 17. So it was about a six year run. And now as they're reloading, what I tell people is, yeah, they just had a, you know, 100 loss season a couple years ago. They didn't have a great, you know, partial season last year. But I'm seeing them come back again like they were around 2012, getting closer to 2013. What they haven't lost is that culture, that culture that he mentioned to me back in 2007 has been there. So he had to spend eight years building that culture to the point where it then coincided with building this talent and growing this talent. The talent moved on. The perils of being in a smaller market. The culture hasn't left.

So for those who aren't die hard baseball fans, Dayton Moore is the general manager. And you know, going back to that conversation you had with him, Joel, in 2007.

You know, quickly summarize again. You know, he's the, he, he is that leader who came in and turned this from a, a perennial 90 law season to 800,000 people in downtown Kansas City celebrating a World Series title. As a leader of an organization like that. What personality traits do you see in Dayton that allow that, what he did over the span of, what was that, about seven or eight years, allow that to be possible?

Well, authenticity for one. I mean there's, there's no fakeness in him. And I think it can be easy sometimes to say, oh, that's just all shuck, smaller market type of stuff. There are decent authentic people in big markets and they're bad people, they're bad people in small markets, they're good people. But I think that his personality and that authenticity of being real certainly resonated with this community. But more importantly, I think that, and there's a consistency to this, players that have been in this organization, whether they stayed or left, will tell you that they haven't dealt with a better person than him.

That's awesome.

So they all look at him as a father figure type. He's not an older gm. I mean he's in his early to maybe that's still early 50s. Really. I assume he's 52, 53, 54, something along those lines. So there's been a consistency. And when you talk about that, Andy, now this is, you know, this, this is a players game. Like I. It's always going to be about the players first and foremost. That's who people come to see. That's who people want to emulate. That's what they're tuning in on TV to watch. It's players game. Players are always going to be more important than management, than broadcasters, than everyone. Fans are obviously the ones paying the ticket. But when you treat everyone, not just the players the same way, that's where you start getting buy in. That includes the fans too. So whether you are that accountant up in the front office or whether you're on the grounds crew or whether you are the, the usher or the person directing traffic outside, when you feel like you are a part of something.

No matter what the role that brings people together, that doesn't answer the talent question. But if you can get the talent close, I think the rest of it will happen. And that's big picture stuff, that's the small ball stuff. Because anyone could go out there and find talent. And for anyone listening or watching right now, we all know whether you're a baseball fan or not, that when it comes to the most iconic franchise, it's the New York Yankees, right? They haven't won a World series since 2009.

And they spent a lot of money. And the Los Angeles Dodgers, another iconic franchise. The. Those are the two top, most iconic franchises. Maybe two of three. You could put the St. Louis Cardinals in there too. Cardinals are a different study. They're in a medium, smaller, medium sized market, more like a Kansas City. However, the Los Angeles Dodgers, having spent absurd amounts of money, I think they also focused a lot on the culture in recent years. But they win it in 2020, their first world championship since 1988. This is true in business too. You could spend the most money of anyone. If you don't get the rest of it right, it's not going to happen. And even if you do get the rest of it right, doesn't guarantee it's going to happen. But you can control your culture.

Where my head went when you were talking about that, Joel, is, you know, having come from the insurance industry, how often I see agencies and firms try to hire these all star producers, but they do nothing to fix the culture that already exists inside the organization or the lack thereof. And you can bring in all the best producers you want, but if the culture isn't in the right spot, you know, we know what the result's going to be. And I love what you said about the Yankees and the Dodgers, very respected organizations, but Yankees haven't won a World series since the 90s. I use the same analogy in the NFL. We still think of the Cowboys as an iconic team. They have been averaged for 25 years.

There is something obviously successful in having the brand and so that will always make them relevant. But that doesn't mean they're. They're winners. Correct. And you know, they, they obviously from a financial standpoint, and I don't know all the numbers, they, they obviously have that safety net which could be a bad thing too, right? Like win or lose, hey, you're still the Cowboys. I, I don't think that that makes them all that happy right now. I think that when you are a smaller organization, a smaller market, this is true for, for companies too, and corporations, who, whoever is that, you just, you have to get more things right. You have to get more things right to be able to compete. However, I think so many others miss that part of it that it enables you to make up for some of those differences if you get that part right. And look, you will, this is true in baseball maybe and sports more than than other professions, but it still applies that money will talk. There's no question about it, that if Andy Neary is offered this contract and this one which is twice as much. There's a pretty good chance that you're going to go where the money is at for a while until suddenly you realize that, okay, yes, I would like more money, but this doesn't feel quite as good or quite right. I'll give you the example of, of our closer in Kansas city, Greg Holland, 5 foot 10, right hander, which, which you know as well as I do that those aren't typically the credentials for in terms of physicality for a pitcher. You got to work a little extra hard for it. He's, he's fourth all time in saves for the Royals, I think. 211, 200 something saves, 151 with the Royals. He was, he, you know, homegrown, came from a small school, Western Carolina I think, and you know, broke in, got a spot in the bullpen, eventually became their, their star closer and after the big run he got hurt and they tried to sign him back. Basically signed him to a two year deal. Hey, for the first year we're going to pay you just to rehab and the second year will benefit from that. But his agent, Scott Boris, the super agent, wanted to find him some other spots. He went off after being hurt, pitched well in Colorado and then bounced around Arizona, Washington, St. Louis and he was terrible. He comes back here to Kansas City on a non guaranteed contract, throws in a limited season. Last year in Era under 2, he re establishes himself as the closer. I just earlier this morning recorded a, a Royals offseason show with him and I asked him because he just resigned again with him and he said this feels like home. I, I told my agent this is where I want to be. I don't care about the rest of it. That's a guy that's made his money that is now saying I'm going to go to the spot that makes the most sense for me. It's a reminder that it doesn't always need to be about the money, but sometimes it takes us a while to.

Get to that point, you know, and Holland's going to come up in the conversation here in a minute because I want to talk about the secret sauce that, that really made the 1415 royals successful. So we talked about at an organizational level what Dayton Moore has done to build that culture. But now let's go to those specific seasons, you know, and I don't think I ever shared this with you. This is, I'm excited about this because two years ago I actually did a keynote talk in Wichita, Kansas and I was trying to figure out how I could tie My topic, health insurance around the local, you know, the folks in Wichita, Kansas. So the talk was literally around how what the royals did in 1415 can apply to you winning the health insurance game. So we talked about the secrets of the 1415 team. From my perspective, I want to hear your perspective because honestly, in an era of home runs, launch angles, strikeout rates through the roof, I feel like the Royals did literally the opposite and in many ways changed the game of baseball forever. So go into that a little bit.

They did change the game forever. And I think that there's a lot of money ball here going on. It wasn't written about the same way, but if moneyball is about finding market inequities, right, or inefficiencies inequities, then where. And this, by the way, should apply to any company, whether you're, you've got the most money or the least amount of money. Again, I think that the, the Yankee types of the world don't have to get all of this right because they could just, I always say that the big market teams or the big market corporations, they've got a higher spending limit on their credit card. If you get it right, just go spend more. Whereas the smaller markets, once you tap out, you're out, right? And so you got to be more careful, though, with the way, you know, your brewers, my Royals, you can't go out there and just let me just go sign somebody else. Then this one didn't work out because it'll paralyze you forever. So what they found, among other things, was that defense and athleticism was being overlooked or not valued the same way as hitting home runs. So they said, you know what? We, we may not be able to compete with the top home run guys, but we could certainly go out there and get players that play the best defense. We can make defense a, a huge focus, not just here with the Royals, but at every level of the minor leagues. So that by the time somebody gets up here, this is the way we do things, and we will win. Games based on that may not be as sexy, but it doesn't cost as much. And when you can get people to buy in, then you end up having something there. The other thing that they did, two other things. One, they really valued good people. And I don't want to, I, I don't want to oversell that or be cheesy about it, because just because you're a good guy doesn't guarantee that you're going to win. But they were very deliberate about who they brought into their clubhouse or their mix or bringing into your office and, and not bringing someone in that wasn't going to fit. Does that mean they got it right every single time? No. Does that mean that they refuse to take chances on, on some damaged goods? No, they did, but they did so strategically. And knowing we think that we could help this person or we think that they'll fit in, we. We've got the right leaders in place. They developed leaders so that when they went to win in 14 and 15, they had some young, emerging good leaders like Eric Cosmer, that, that, that could run the ship in there and, and that were respected and listened to by others. The last thing that they did, so you have defense, athleticism, defense, you have good people, is they invested in the bullpen to the point where that changed the game. And I mentioned this because if anyone's watching right now that isn't a fan of baseball, I'm not, I'm not just playing to Andy here because of his past profession or the name of this, of this podcast, but bullpen is sort of like, what do they used to always say? Well, if you're in the bullpen, you're a failed starter. It's. That's actually still somewhat true. Although you're seeing more guys develop now in high school and college just for the point of going in and throwing 100 miles an hour for an inning. However, if. If they had all of these guys that were, quote, unquote, failed starters, they started to really invest in those guys. And now it became not just, hey, we have a guy that can wrap it up in the ninth inning. We have guys that can wrap it up in the sixth, the seventh, the eighth, and the ninth. And in their heyday in 14 and 15, they arguably had three to four closers on their team. And I remember having this conversation with, with Big Poppy, David Ortiz. It's a good name drop. And we were outside of the Red Sox clubhouse in 2000, I think it was 14. He was getting his haircut. You know, the teams will usually bring a barber in at the big league level at least once per home stand, and then the other team can pay that barber. And so he and I were chatting. He says, come on, while I'm getting, you know, getting my haircut. And he's got another buddy in there. And he says something like, man, the Royals bullpen is so good. He goes, when this game is, oh, you know, when they, when they come in there, it's just, it's over. And I said, look, let me give you a stat Here, Poppy. And I'm making it up here, but I'm not far off. I said, what do you think the Royals record is when they have the lead through six innings? It's happened 67 times this year. And he says, 65 and 10. And I said, or whatever it was 55 and 10. And he says. And I said, no, it was 64 and 1. Whatever it was, it was like 65 and 1. And I remember him. I don't know what the language is on here, but.

You can go. You can go.

Well, it's a bad one. But he was just like, get the F out of here. And he was like equal part amazed, but also impressed with just how ridiculous that was. And let me fast forward a couple of years. I had a reliever on the Chicago White Sox that came up to me one day. We were just chit chatting about something else. And he said, I need to. This probably like 2016 or so 17. He says, I need to thank the Royals. He was like the seventh inning guy for the White Sox. I go, why is that? He said, I'm a free agent at the end of this year, and they just made me a lot of money. So what happened was other teams started spending. Teams always spend a lot of money on a 9th inning guy. Now they were spending close to that on a sixth, a seventh, an eighth, and a ninth. And the final point to that, Andy, is then relief pitching became a lot more expensive. Royals bullpen kind of went down. Now it's back up again, in part because they developed most of those guys in the minor leagues. It became a priority for them. With that said, if everyone's going that route and you're in a smaller market, then maybe invest more in your starting pitching, maybe find different. You, you have to continue to adapt. You can get the culture right, and you can get the culture right. That has to adapt to. But you have to stay consistent with your culture every single day, which is a big part of not just what you do, but who you are, but you have to be able to adapt to the market. And if all the market's going this way and you can't compete with that, then there's going to be an opening. It's no different than. Than double teaming someone in basketball. There's always going to be an open man. You got to find that open lane.

Well, and that's when I became a bandwagon fan of The Royals in 1415 is when you know you had Herrera in the seventh, Wade Davis in the eighth, and Holland in the ninth. It was game over. They literally turned the game of baseball into a six inning game. As a starting pitcher, you had to go five or six innings. That's it. And it makes me think about the 18 brewers that almost made it to the World Series. It was the same example. Seventh inning was Hayter, eighth inning was Jeffress, ninth inning was Knavel. It was a six inning game. You could actually win a World Series title with mediocre starting pitching when all they got to do is go six innings and keep the team in the game.

There is never. The hitters will tell me this, and for those that don't know, hitters and pitchers are very rarely in agreement on things. They oftentimes don't hang out. Every now and then they will, but they see things from different perspectives, understandably. And I remember having, you know, a hitter a couple years ago say to me, this is a very successful hitter too. He said, I don't think it's ever been. I don't think it's ever been this hard to hit in the big leagues. And his point was.

From the sixth inning on, you may see a guy throwing 100 miles every inning and, and in past generations, you might see that guy in the ninth inning maybe, and now you might need to deal with it all game long. And so when people sit there and say, well, why are they being so aggressive with this guy? Why are they doing that? Why are they. Because they don't want to get to the next guy. And so it's like, this is the opportunity. But I think the greater lesson to that is that the game, like anything else in life, like any business, will forever evolve. And if you're going to sit there and say, you know what, this always worked for us in the past, so let's just keep doing it, then you're shortchanging yourself. Just go talk to Blockbuster or talk to whatever organization you want to put in. It really, really worked well. Until it didn't. So what else is new? How do you pivot to that?

So I have two more questions around that I want to ask you and then we're going to get in some rapid fire, which you didn't expect coming yet.

No, it's okay.

Because you're. They're royal history questions that I want to. I want a lot of your thoughts and opinions on. So I'm excited, but this is why I love this book. You know, small, Small ball, Big Results is okay, let's parlay baseball into that small company who's trying to disrupt an industry or that small you know, in my world, that smaller insurance agency that's playing against the big boys, you know, the royals in 14, 15 at best, had a middle of the road payroll.

Brewers in 2018 had a middle of the road payroll. Oakland A's for how long have had success, and they constantly sneak in the playoffs with this small payroll. If you're an organization sitting out there right now in business, sports, wherever, Joel, and you're trying to compete with those big boys, what are some of these lessons we can learn from the Royals that some a business could apply to, remain competitive, if not take over those big boys?

Well, you know, the title small ball, which by the way, was amazing. Like, people either think that that's a dirty title, which I don't really get, or you just get it, you know, in baseball terms, small ball, the singles, the bunts, the sacrifices, the defense, the speed, that can apply to any profession. Small, you know, and I asked you this question when you were on my podcast, rounding the bases. And I ask every guest, what is small ball to you? What are the little things that add up to the big things in your world? I ask people about the biggest home run they've hit, the biggest swing and miss. I'm not talking in terms of a baseball field. And small ball, to me, is the culture question. It's your identity. It's the little things that you do that maybe people don't see that, you know, the good old what do you do when no one's looking type of stuff. And any smaller organization or organization going up against the big boys, so to speak, can control those things. You may not be able to spend the same money as your top competitor. You may not have the same budget. But how you treat people.

Whatever your values are staying consistent to those, not just saying them, but practicing them. Top to bottom, bottom to top. Those all can be handled when a new player comes to Kansas City, whether they be someone that was traded for, whether they be someone that, that was acquired with a big free agent contract, or whether it be someone that was cut by another team and they bring in here, this organization rolls out the red carpet. I'm not talking about a big party and a huge celebration and massive fancy gifts. I'm talking about, what do you need? What does your wife need or your girlfriend need? Can we help you with this? And this and this and this. Because the feeling is that first impression matters. And back to what I said before, if, if the money is a lot greater elsewhere, yeah, they're probably going to go. But now, all things equal, if the money's close. The, the word is out that you know what, they're going to take care of me there. This is a place that no one complains about. This is a place that people feel like they're being treated right. And it's not just about the wins and losses. It's about, yes, the experience, but it's about more than just baseball. It's about treating people like humans. You don't find that everywhere else. This is something that any company can do. Taking care of people, taking care of others and being consistent and true to that. Not just when it's convenient, but making it really a part of who you are every single day. You have to have talent. You're not going to get, get a team together in any office of a bunch of non achievers that have no drive or interest or no talent and suddenly win. It's not just a, hey, let's, let's just, let's just hope that it all works out. But if you get all those other things right, you can teach a lot of those skills. And so I think it applies to everyone and I think it's empowering too when you have some of the, instead of sitting there saying oh, we don't have that kind of budget, we don't have that kind of money, how can we do that? What about what do we have and how can we make the best of that one? It's a mindset, you know that. And when you have that mindset, you can accomplish anything. Does it mean you're going to win championships every single time? No. But when you get the culture right, you're going to for the most part be in the discussion every day.

So let's finish up by taking that to the individual level. So whether it's somebody working for an organization or an athlete, you know that is at a small mid major college trying to make it to the next level or a high school kid from a small town school trying to make it to collegiate sports. I want you to share, if you don't mind wrapping up with the story of your co host Jeff Montgomery. You know it speaks to my heart. He's a 5, he was a 5 foot 10, 170 pound pitcher who did not throw 99 miles an hour. And yet today we talk about Jeff Montgomery as probably the greatest reliever closer in Royals history.

And quickly share that journey if you don't mind. For the individual out there, think that's thinking I don't have the resources, I don't have the genetics to be great. What lessons can we learn from Jeff Montgomery's rise to the minor leagues as an unknown prospect to again becoming the all time saves leader for the Kansas City Royals?

Yeah, and he would argue, because he's very humble that the greatest closer in Kansas City Royals history was Dan Quisenberry. The late Dan Quisenberry. The numbers would say that Jeff Montgomery was. Either way, here is a guy and I just called this up on, on my screen in the long history of baseball, one that didn't involve saves and, and that category as early on, but still in the long history of baseball, only 26 players in the history of the game have more saves than Jeff Montgomery. 304 career saves. The guy right above him is Goose Gossage. Jeff Montgomery, who's been my longtime broadcast partner. He and I have worked together now, I want to say most of the last 11 seasons and I've been here 13. And so he's my analyst on the post game show.

I'm, I don't want to say I'm in awe of him but, but if you really pay attention, it's all, all worthy because everything he does to this day is in my mind what he must have been like when he was playing. Very detail oriented, very methodical in the way he goes about things. Attention to detail, those are the things that anyone can control. Does it guarantee you that you're going to be the top guy? Not necessarily, but it does guarantee you that you're going to be productive. Every single day. I watch him quietly go about his business and preparing every single day. I watched him come in with me in 2010, I think was his first year, my third year here without a whole lot of broadcast experience. And I don't want to say he was nervous, but he wasn't comfortable, he wasn't polished. And I tried to help him along the way and just, just be a good teammate and, and really I bring this up because, you know, when you surround yourself with good people and I think and hope that I'm one of them, you, you try to make those around you better. And I spent a lot of time just doing more of the heavy lifting, understanding that I was going to carry a lot of the show as he was getting more comfortable. And then suddenly there just became a point and it got better and better and better and better every day where I just had to do less, I was comfortable doing more, but suddenly I had to do less. And he's fine on his own. He and I could speak a language without even talking to each other and go on the Air without ever having talked about one thing in advance. And we just have like sort of that chemistry that a, you know, point guard and a, and a star, you know, scoring guard or whatever would have in basketball. The no look pass or whatever where there's just a trust. But that took time and a lot of that happened because he just kept working and working and working. I know the story that you wanted me to tell was that here's a guy that was drafted in the ninth round back in the mid-80s, 84, 85, something like that. And by, by his hometown, Cincinnati Reds. I mean, he grew up maybe an hour and a half from Cincinnati. Drafted in the 9th round of the 1983 draft by the Reds. He makes it up in 87, makes his big league debut. Started one game for Pete Rose, his childhood hero and his manager that year. Started one game for Pete Rose that year. It was against the Los Angeles Dodgers, against Bob Welsh. I know this because Welsh got hurt. Fernando Valenzuela came in, got a hit off Jeff Montgomery. If you, I, I, I'm gonna told these stories so many times. And we met Fernando at Dodger Stadium. But 700 career games in one start. Pete Rose had him start. It was like a national game. It didn't go well. Never started him again. Traded him in the off season, he believes, because he didn't pitch well for him that game. I don't know if there's a little something there or not. We know about the history of Pete Rose. Regardless of that, he gets traded to the Kansas City Royals, goes into their bullpen, it ends up being their most successful closer of all time. When he broke into the minor leagues with a bunch of future hall of Famers like Barry Larkin, and he's in Idaho or wherever he was in, in rookie ball, he had a coach pull him aside and say, look, you're not as big as everybody else and you're not going to get the attention as everybody else. But this gets back to something I said before. But if you just find something to improve on every single day, you have the skills and the ability to get there. So he would go home in the off season at a time where you didn't have the kind of money to have, you know, multiple houses. So he'd go home in the off season in Ohio and he would stand in the mirror, you know, not the best pitching weather in the winter in Ohio. He'd stand in the mirror and work on his delivery and work on his mechanics every single day.

That's all. I mean, it's A great place to wrap up because, again, you think about his story and then the story of the Royals at large. You can't compete with the big boys on resources. Jeff Montgomery couldn't all of a sudden become 65 overnight and throw 98 miles an hour. The royals can't just go spend 205 million DOL dollars on a lineup. But you can do all the things on a daily basis, the things you can control. Do those right and build one day upon the other and just be better today than you were yesterday. And good stuff happens, whether it's Jeff, whether it's the Royals. I think that's the. The theme of this story here.

Yeah. And he ended up with 13 years in the big leagues, and, like I said, 304 saves, three All Star game appearances for a guy that, you know, pitched at Marshall University and very easily could have gone into something in, you know, accounting or numbers or whatever it was. I mean, look, he's one of the best athletes I've ever been around. If you were to. To go golf with him or bowling with him or whatever, he's always going to be the best guy there. So it was obviously in him, but he had to earn that opportunity. That opportunity happened, by the way that he went about things, and I think that those are the things that all of us can control.

That's awesome. You ready to end up with some rapid fire?

Yeah, let's do it.

Awesome. Now, before we say this, I never mentioned that, you know, watching that 2014 team that. Especially that ALCS championship, Joel, against the Orioles before the brewers had their success in 18 was kind of a punch in the nuts as a Brewers fan, because in the alcs, you had Lorenzo Kane playing for the Royals, who has since come back to the Brewers. You had Aoki playing in right field. You had Escobar at short, Ned Yost managing the team. I even think there was a beat writer for the Royals that used to be the beat writer for the brewers. And you had J.J. hardy playing for the aura. I was like, seriously? You have brewers everywhere. Yeah.

And. And to add to. To add to that. Yeah. You mentioned Ned Yost. Dale Swaim was with us at that point, too. So, yeah, there. There were a bunch of them. And. And actually, James Shields and Wade Davis had come from Tampa, but that they were. They were acquired with Jake Otter Rizzi, who had come with Lorenzo Kane and Alcidas Escobar in the trade for Zach Grinke. There were a lot of Brewer connections there.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just had to vent that out there because I remember watching that series being like, seriously, every angle, every game I turn on, there's a Brewer doing something. Okay, Rapid fire. You ready?

Yeah.

Okay. This is could be before your time as a broadcaster or during your time. Most underrated royal of all time in.

Your opinion.

Who most underrated royal of.

All or at least in the time you've been broadcasting.

Yeah, I can go back even, even before that I think what about a guy and I didn't, you know, watch him play but I mean in the 70s, Amos Otis was as athletic and graceful and multi talented. I mean he pops up on every single, almost every single top five list or top ten list in history for the Royals. And some of it is just that we've gotten past that in time. But how many people do you hear on the country talk about Amos Otis?

I would say the die hard baseball fans remember that name. I probably have a baseball card or two in my, my parents house still sitting there today. That was a great answer. Great way to start. If you could go back and relive this one might be obvious. If you can go back and relive one royal moment, just one moment where you could put yourself back in that moment, what would it?

Well I.

I, I think it would.

Probably be Salvador Perez's walk off hit in the wild card in, in 2014. There's so many of them. Walk offs obviously are amazing but a walk off in an elimination game. But I say this to a lot of people too. It's not a complaint, it's just reality. When you have my job, you often see these plays if you're not calling the play by play in weird spots, especially for a big game like that where there's so much national media. So I was sitting in a press conference room watching it on a television monitor waiting to get on the field to do interviews. But I wasn't allowed on the field like I would be during the season. So many of the greatest moments that I have experienced in my career, 26 years have been standing in a hallway or sitting in front of a monitor. I'd love to be able to re witness that like from the stands or something like that.

That, that I, that one again it speaks to the heart because if somebody were to ask me my favorite Brewer moment of all time, 2011, Nigel Morgan hits the gate, gets the game winning hit in Game 5 to advance against the Diamondbacks into the NLCS. That was actually my first date with Amy. We're still together today and it was our just, just so truth be told, I didn't say much to her that entire first date on the game and it's all worked out. So I, I told her we're not married yet, but if we ever get married, Nigel Morgan's going to be our best man. So I love it. All right, favorite road stadium in baseball.

Offendway. And, and the stadium discussion. I've been to every stadium except for Texas's new stadium. I think I've been to somewhere around like 40 something plus overall. And, and it's truly one that if I make top 10 lists, they might come out different unless I really document it every single time. It's kind of whatever mood I'm in and, and my experiences are different. It's not so much the sight lines, it's which press box is closer to the clubhouse to be able to get down there quickly, which camera wells are shielded from the sun. If I'm doing my reports down there where I, you know, or you know, like, I love being in Anaheim where I will sit down in the camera well connected to the visiting dugout on the first base side. Because why wouldn't you do that for nine innings in, in, you know, 72 degree weather? The only negative to that is that if you got to go to the bathroom in the middle of the game, you got to, in between innings, go down the tunnel where the umpires go, find the little side room. And oh, by the way, when I come back the next inning, I usually have a text message from one of the umpires. I know all those guys from New York saying, you just go to the bathroom or watching you on camera, not the inside part. So, so I, I just brought that up 1, because I think it's fun for people to hear that, like there's these little intricacies in every spot. And we as broadcasters, our least favorite stadiums are going to be the ones that are the most difficult to work in. With that said, Fenway is a difficult place to work. Wrigley is a difficult place to work. They weren't built for this as, as much as they have new amenities. And it is worlds ahead of where it was in the 1920s or 40s or whatever. Remember that Fenway park was built, I think, like, I think it opened like the week before or after the Titanic sank. So we're talking about something that's been around a long time. However, and you will appreciate this, there are only three or four, five venues in my career that I've walked into where you're just like.

Like you feel like you're. And, and Lambo is one of them and Fenway is one of them. There's just something magical when you walk in there. And I watch it with all of our young players. The first time they come in, they're like taking pictures and they're just in awe of it. There. There is to me, no feeling like being at Fenway Park. And my first year in 2008, Royals, Red Sox and John Lester pitched a no hitter against us. Covering a no hitter against you is a nightmare because nobody wants to talk about it. But I just remember being in the ninth inning, I was sitting in the camera wall next to Heidi Watney, who, you know, now works at MLB Network, and she was reporting for Boston. And I didn't have a whole lot to do in the ninth inning there at that point. And I took my earpiece out, which I wouldn't usually do, not listen to our announcers. And I just listened to the crowd the whole game, and it was magical.

That's awesome. The history of stadiums like Wrigley and, and Fenway. Yeah, you can't replicate that at all. Quick. Okay, so flip it. Besides Kansas City, favorite city in baseball that you get to visit.

Well, I'll, I'll, I'll, I won't go with Boston just because I feel like I already did that because I, you know, Boston's like the rare, it's like the double double for me because not only do I love the stadium, but I love the city so that, you know, sometimes you get one or the other, not both. But I would say a couple of my favorite cities and we go to the American League ones in a non pandemic year, all year long. The two I would put up there would be Seattle. Just so different than anywhere else in the country. A little, you know, some similarities on a smaller level to San Francisco, but Seattle and then out of the country, Toronto. I always say favorite cities are the places that you hope you have an off day, you know, where you're in the middle of a road trip and so you're there, you always go to the next city. And so if you can get an off day in Toronto or Seattle, that is not a spot that you're staying in the hotel room.

Yeah, that's awesome. Two more and we'll be done here. One royal. You wish you had the chance to broadcast for that. You didn't.

Well, I think the obvious answer would probably be Bo Jackson. I mean, I wasn't around for that. And they're, you know, he has to be like the greatest icon to have been Somewhere, not that long. But to have the status that he did. Like, he's not in the Royals hall of Fame because he wasn't even here long enough. But. But people that grew up in that generation would say that. That he was their favorite. You know, they all say, oh, he was my favorite player. But I'm gonna go a little bit more outside the box because it's not really a royal. But I feel strongly about this answer. And I'm. I'm wearing. I mean, here we are today, it's MLK Day, and I'm wearing the Negro Leagues baseball sweatshirt. I. I just wish. And he passed before I got here that in my broadcasting, I. I had had the opportunity to be around Buck O' Neill because, you know, he passed in 06, and obviously everybody knew who he was, and especially after the Ken Burns baseball documentary came out, you know, and he'd be on Letterman and he'd be all over the place. Maybe the greatest ambassador or one of the greatest ambassadors in the history of this game, and he was at Kaufman Stadium every single night, scouting. He's the kind of guy that I would have seen every single night. And I feel like I know the man so well. I've told his story so many times. I'm close to people that. That tell his stories on a regular basis. So I would just say that I wish that in my broadcast career, I had had the chance to be doing that while Buck o' Neill was around.

That's awesome. That's fat. That's fabulous. Last question. This one might get you in trouble. You need one win. Who are you going with on the mound? Brett Saberhagen, Zach Granke, Paul Splittorff, Kevin Appier.

Oh, man. Well, I. I know or knew all of those guys. Now, you know, I talk about Jeff Montgomery coming in to work with me in 2010. He came in because Paul split off, was sick, and, you know, Split was our. Our game analyst. And then when. When he was having difficulties with his speech and. And cancer, they moved him to be my. My analyst on the. On the post game, pre and post game show, not having to speak for nine full innings. And so. So it was. It was me and Split. And then they brought Monty in as an extra just. Just to help out with that. So I.

Talent wise.

I think Apier and Granky were probably at a different level, but when you start talking about one guy to win, you're talking about who's got the biggest set of, you know, what's too. You're talking about a guy that doesn't have to be a number one, but he has to believe he's a number one. And so that then narrows me down to Split and Saberhagen.

I. I'm gonna go with.

Saber Hagen, which is the less sentimental choice. And I'm friends with Sabes only because, I mean, he won the World Series MVP as a 21 year old pitcher. So, you know, here he is, 21 years old on the phone being congratulated by President Reagan. I'm going to go with the guy that, that showed that he could do it. However, if you want the guy with the biggest stones, he may have won, he may have lost. Split would not have gone down without a fight.

That's unbelievable. You know, rumor has it Saberhagen lives just down the road from me here, so that might be possible.

The local wine bar we visit has said Brett Saberhagen has come in multiple times and he lives down the roads, so. Well, Joel, this has been a fascinating conversation. I could go on another hour if we wanted to. But I really want to thank you for your time. So excited that we got to have you on again. You're listening in. Go get Joel's book. Small Ball Big Results. You know, it is a lesson about the Kansas City Royals, but it's also a lesson about what it takes. Whether you're that athlete no one's looking at today or that organization competing with the big boys, there are steps you can take to win today, things you can control. As we talked about earlier, you can't compete on resources, so you got to change the game just like the Royals did. Yeah. And so, Joe, with that being said, any last parting words you'd like to leave the audience with?

Well, one just for you. I would say that if you bump into Saves, go up and say hi, tell them that we know each other, he and I. You know, I mean, I know all these guys. Obviously, having been here so long now they come in and out of town if they don't live here. But. But Brett's. And I write about this in the book, so Saves is in the book. Brett Saberhagen, Mike Sweeney, George Brett, Reggie Sanders and myself went to Kuwait two years ago on a USO tour. And so, you know, I'm lucky enough to have spent time with Saves over there. So make sure that you, you go and say hi to him. He's. He's as good as it gets. But no, I think, I think my advice would be everything that we've just talked about. And you, you really don't even need to be a baseball or a sports fan. Take care of yourself and the people around you every single day. Anything's possible.

Absolutely. And if you're listening in, you always know when clarity and confidence collide, action happens. Go make it happen today.