Your Sales Tactics Are Outdated | with Jack Grovenstein

That's where my wife, oh look, I love this shirt. This thought leader and shopping or whatever she's looking into has spent time doing all this so I don't have to, I'm going to see what she likes. I like her style. I trust her. How do we translate that? Maybe not with a swipe up link, but maybe I think we're crazy if we're not doing that or thinking about how to do that better and professionally. Hey.

Hey. Welcome back to the accelerate your insurance sales podcast. Andy Neary here, founder and CEO of Complete Game Consulting. I'm excited. Today I've got Jack Grovenstein joining me from Palmer and K down in the peach state of Georgia. Jack, welcome to the podcast.

Andy, happy to be here.

Jack, partner, Palmer and K. We're going to have a great conversation today just about the insurance landscape. What's going on in the industry, where you see it going, but what I how I love to start. Every episode is within. Look back. There may be some folks tuning in who have no clue who Jack Rovenstein is. You're one of the few, I have to admit, that went to college. Yeah, for risk management.

That's right.

Now typically I hear it when it's a second third generation insurance professional, but I don't believe that's the case with you, is that correct?

That is not the case. You know, I always find it interesting and fun to see, hey, how did you get in this industry? You know, how did you get here? And the stories are, as you know, Andy, are all over the place and usually interesting. I know yours is too. Right. But no, I, I, I joke with everyone. I, I'm a glutton for punishment because I, I, I chose this industry. There's actually, believe it or not, there is a major for risk management insurance and University of Georgia, where I graduated, takes a lot of pride in it. It's ranked number one for what that's worth. I'm sure it's out of, you know, 20 other colleges, but still number one nonetheless. But I'll get inside. I, you know, nothing. This is a great industry and, you know, nothing good comes easy. It has its challenges, as you know, Andy, and that's what you help, you know, a lot of companies with. But man, am I glad I got into it.

Yeah, it's actually, I didn't think about that until you just said so. You went to the University of Georgia for risk management. And one of my favorite clients that I've had the chance to work with, Madison Baker, who's a commercial producer over at Marsh McLennan out of Dallas also went to the of Georgia for risk management. So one of the probably eight or nine that I've met that went to college for this, she also went to Georgia. I didn't realize it was the top risk management program in the country.

Humble brag. It started to be ranked number one after I graduated, so.

Well, which also means you are a Georgia Bulldog. So you have had a lot to be happy about over the last few years when it comes to college football.

Yeah, it's been a really good run.

Yeah, I haven't. You know what? I didn't intend to ask you this question, but I am going to ask, and I don't know how much of a die hard you are. What are your thoughts on the new college football landscape? Just the way Nil this, the way the whole sport works now. It's pretty much professional football. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I try to be a, you know, glass half full guy and it's definitely different. And you can, you can make an argument it's been probably tougher for the blue blood programs, which I consider Georgia people in that it leaving the playing field. But man, look at this. I had my doubts. But look at the season though. I mean, it's. It's gotten where every game matter, you know, that was the worry. Is every game going to matter? But no, it turns out parody is good, competition is good, and it's exciting to watch. You know, I'm tuning the games I wasn't before and I. I honestly think they'll expand the playoffs and I think that'll be good for everybody.

Well, and. And we can sit here and argue as much as we want that they should just take the top teams from the SEC and the top teams from the Big Ten and create their own conference. But then you look at it and you go, wait, Indiana is number two in the country right now. Georgia Tech is in the top 10. It's like there are still teams that you would not think would have success in this new program, in this new style that are having a lot of success.

Absolutely.

And I say that as a very, very frustrated Wisconsin Badger fan.

Y'. All. Y' all get back there. Yeah, y'. All.

Anyways, we're not here to talk college football. We are here to talk insurance. But you're at Palmer and K. If you don't mind. I'll be honest. Before you and I met, I. I did not know a whole lot about Palmer K. But why don't you give a little history of the agency? It's been around for quite a long time.

It has and we are very proud of it. We are what I like to call Palmer K 2.0. So you know, the history does date back to 1868. It founded in Savannah and you know, it's been family owned since then. Or at least I think we're on our fifth or sixth generation. Back in, you know, the early 2000s, 2005, Palmer and K 1.0 got an offer they just could not refuse. This is back during the time where the big banks were get, you know, want to get into the insurance. So at the time Wavia approached, you know, Palmer and K and said look, you know, just. They backed up the truck and said look, you know, we'll, we'll give you this you for at the time this, you know, absurd offer. It's since gotten even more crazy since then. But you know, but up until that point, Palmer K built itself again at the time, this is before private equity really got into the, into the business. And we were, you know, the second or third largest privately held brokerage shop I think you know, locked in was more, you had more of the west coast lockdown. But we certainly in the Southeast and up the eastern seaboard built quite the name and reputation for ourselves and that was attracted to Wachovia. You know, fast forward soon thereafter Wachovia, there's a financial crisis. Wachovia got absorbed by Wells Fargo. And so that Palmer and K through that transition, the naming rights, the Palmer and K either were transferred over. They didn't keep those in that transition. So the Ks were able to get that naming rights back. All that goodwill built up. We were able to get start Palmer and K 2.0 in 2010. And it's you know, kind of refresh but getting back to where where we once been is where is certainly our goal. So it's, it's a unique scenario. It's so interesting. You know, I kind of nerd out on this. Just, you know the insurance trees. We were talking about football earlier, right. You know, you see the coaching trees. Well, it's so interesting to go back and look at the insurance tree. Like okay, you know that cell initial Palmer K 1.0, you know, after that naturally not everyone wants to work with big bank. You saw split off like, you know that started Seacrest. Some people split off started Seacrest. They locked in Atlanta office. Some people went over there Ironwood. You start drawing those connections and see you know how many great professionals came out or had a great experience in Palmer K and Carries as Well, it's a really cool story and well, it.

Says a lot about the 1.0 version of the agency. Just like a coaching free. Right. Like you look at a Nick Saban. How many coaches have come out of Nick Saban's coaching tree and had tremendous success? Probably not to his level, but good success. Urban Meyer, you know, other people like that, the same. That is a sign of a, of. Of what was a strong agency is if the executives and the people who may have come out of that agency have now gone on to start their own and also have thriving agencies. That says a lot about where they came from.

That's right.

What made you join? Because I believe. Did you join Palmer and K 2020?

That's right.

What made you make the decision of wanting to become part of the Palmer K culture?

Looking back 2020, obviously Covid year at the time I was a producer at usi. Prior experience leading up to that, I've been, you know, at Aon, big public and trading company, boutique. I've been at a Boutique firm. Just 2020 is just a good year of just self reflection too. Right. My second child was born. You know, the world's gone crazy. You know, I was looking back, okay, how can I, you know, I have the unique experience and benefit of seeing different models. I, you know, as I matured myself, I learned, you know, what works best for me, what works best for my clients. And during that time, I, I said, you know, what? Let, you know, I had some success at USI before the golden handcuffs or it became too hard for me to move or at least that inertia kind of stuck me there. I was like, okay, I need to just take a quick evaluation of what's going on. I saw the benefit firsthand of what being at a private company could do, right? Albeit the first boutique round, it was eight employees. But, okay, what does that look like when, you know, you have some resources behind that as well? You know, after looking at several competitors too, doing a deep evaluation, it just became abundantly clear, you know, Palmer K was that unicorn. You know, the history, you know, the, you know, the integrity, the people there. You know, it really does start at the top. Jack K was a big part of that, bringing me over. Such a great guy, so well known in the industry. Um, you know, and then all throughout the organization, just seeing the talent they had there, the resources. I mean, that's what it's about when you're in production. You know, it really does take a village. You know, you can strong arm at will as much as you can. But being a leader on the team, leading the team and having that team, you know, right there with you and incentivize for, for everyone to win, that's what that private model does. And it, it really, it blew me.

Out of the water.

And it honestly is the best move I ever made. I'm very thankful to.

I actually wanted to ask you your opinion on that because you see a lot of producers in the industry who hop from one big public to the other. Right. They may go from March to Octon to Ima to to Aon to usi and they, they kind of stay up in that public big house. What was the experience? Looking back now five years, what would you say were some of the biggest changes? Or I don't want to use the word adjustment, but just for you, beneficially, some of the changes you witnessed by going to more of a private organization.

Yeah, there's pros and cons with anything. Obviously you have, there's name brand. Right. But I would argue Palmer K has that, some of that cachet too. I think there's a natural fear. It's like, hey, can we work on big clients? Can we do that now? Certainly there's something to be said if you want to work with publicly traded companies, know, clients, those size clients, guess people like to buy with or work with people that are just like them. Right. So if you want to stay in that poke trade level, look there, there's some benefit to that. Companies want to work with companies that are like them. But what I liked is, you know, you know, being at those middle market, those large private companies, I saw an opportunity like, can we bring some of this stuff that we're doing at AON down midstream or, or at the larger shops and provide those services, that expertise, self funding, those types of solutions down to the upper middle market. And there was a need there. So again, it depends on what you want to do, but there's certainly benefits, especially if you're with a firm that has the same resources. When you really peel back the onion that the larger shops do.

Yeah, I say this, and I know this comes probably with a little pushback from some of my peers who work at the big publicly traded houses. I think because we're experiencing a time now where even the big boys are purchasing each other, I think it presents a really big opportunity for those large regional independents like Palmer and Kay, because I think employers are going to slowly and eventually get frustrated with this constant acquisition activity that's going on up here. And I feel like it's a race to who can be the biggest. But that does present opportunity for organizations like yours. When you look at. I'd love your perspective on growth right now because a lot of agencies are still focused, I'd say, on M and A being their primary source of growth. How does Palmer. What is Palmer K's approach to organic growth?

Yeah.

And what are you guys doing to still ensure that you are sustaining good organic growth?

Growth, Yeah, I mean, it's organic growth over everything for us. Right. You know, we're still at that size where, you know, while we are looking now, you know, acquisitions and more investments, keeping out, keeping our eye out on that because there was a lot of opportunities still in that space. If you can't grow organically, you know, what, what are you doing? You want to have that. It's the lifeblood of our industry. You know, if you're not growing, you're shrinking now, you know, acquisitions is certainly a way to do that, but you know, it's a. To do it well. It's, it's a talent to keep your same culture, the same quality, the same, you know, ideals and values. You know, when you keep bolting on that becomes harder and harder to do. So organic growth is extremely important to us and it's a major focus. So, you know, look, we have a baseline growth of week. Like we want to grow at least 15% organic year over year. You know, there may be years where there's lift, there's not. You can't count on that. We need to track is pure new business, you know, at least 15. And look, if we do that, you grow 15 a year, you're going to double in five years. It's simple math. And now we'll have years, you know, where we grow. Like last year, we grew 27%. That's great. You know, what we've been trying to focus on is, you know, we noticed with that growth, you got 27, 30, 40. Those are big years. Sometimes we'll have some digestion issues. Right. You know, the, our model works. Producers are very hands on. We have a lot, you know, we have AES and account managers we've added, but still it's, it's. We want to make sure we take care of the client that we brought in, do what we say we're going to do. Well, that sometimes hurts has an outstanding impact in the pipeline. You know, at our size, you know, we have 10, 12 producers and everyone had a good year. When we're still digesting that business well, we got to make sure we're back filling the resources, ideally ahead of time, planning for that. So a big thing for us has been going to, you know, we really turned the notch on Salesforce. We've always had it, but what, what we're doing and how we're using it, you know, it's. That's. You could probably do a whole another podcast on that, getting producers to actively use Salesforce. And look, the bigger shops have done a good job at that. We need to catch up. You know, you alluded to earlier, you know, some of the reasons we were able to pull from, you know, bigger shops is maybe they're trying to get away from, hey, someone looking over my shoulder. Well, as we grow road and hit this certain plateau, we've got to act and do, you know, run a business like a business should be run. That's the pipeline, that's forecasting, that's getting the talent, you know, the resources in ahead of time. And that's been a big thing we focused on.

So, yeah, you bring up a good point. I admit, when I was a producer, I was at a time probably guilty of why, why should I be filling out the CRM the way you want me to? Do you want me selling or being good at putting, you know, putting the information in the CRM? I can tell you now that I run a business, I'm like, oh, I get it now. I get why tracking this stuff is important. But let's talk about producers because obviously, if you're going to hit your organic growth goals, you've got to have the right producers. And let's be honest, I think we all could agree today, it can be a challenge to find the right talent. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd love to hear, like, when you're out looking for new producers, are there certain characteristic traits you're looking for? What do you look for in a producer that you think might be a good fit for the Palmer and K culture?

Yeah, it's, it's a tough, it's a tough job. It's, you know, you know, it's not.

Just people interview well. Right. A lot of people interview well. So it can be misleading.

It can be misleading. And, you know, we, we've done, you know, personality test, we still do those sales acumen test just to see if, you know, are they built for it? Those, you know, we take. Those aren't the end all be all either. We, you know, it's a really tough, you know, it's, it's certainly, you know, it's, it's an art, not A science. And a lot of time, it has to be guts. I mean, we do everything, you know, referrals. It's hard to find good producers. And we. We've gone through, like, let's uncover every stone. Like, what are we missing? You know, is it, you know, other B2B sales that we can bring in, train? Do we start young? You know, we started a, you know, producer associate program, you know, so you can train and mentor. So either someone three years into B2B sales or just newer in their career, maybe somewhere else, bring them on. Or right out of college, you know, maybe they work here a year, learned the industry a little bit, then they say, hey, I want to try this producer thing. So we have a stepping stone for there. So to try to grow that organically the way we want. But, you know, and then there's outside, obviously, there's, you know, we all know the top producers and good producers that have proven. But those are. Those are never easy or, you know, cheap to bring over. Right. So it really is a problem. So we try to. Hiring techniques, you know, a lot of interviews, trying to get to know just the. The person inside. Right. We have certain values, integrity, you know, you know, we. We're Bulldogs, both Georgia bulldoze fans, but we really fight for our clients. We want that kind of tenacity all across the board, but especially in our producers. Right. You know, you got to find. Yes. In this business, you got to find solutions. You can't give up that grit. It's hard to. No matter how many interviews, it's hard to figure that out. We do our best at that. But I guess a long way of answering your question. You know, we're looking at every avenue of. Okay, how can we develop that internally as well? Get the new crop of producers in. Look elsewhere as well. They have good sales acumen. They know how to be sales professionals. But how do we, you know, let's build some, you know, apparatus to help teach them the business and as well as sell what we sell, which it can be honest. Let's. It's a harder sell. It's an intangible product we're selling. We're selling trust. We're selling service. Those things are hard to just show in the first meeting. And it takes a certain skill set, for sure.

Well, and. And I, I, you know, we sell a product that they have to have.

Yep.

And we're trying to replace somebody they probably liked.

Yeah, we got fired. Yeah.

And that request, that itself lends to a longer sales cycle, especially if you're selling B2B. And it is that resilience to make sure they don't forget who you are, that eventually you chip away and build enough credibility and maybe some doubt with where they're, what they're doing today to open that door to have that conversation. But like you said, it doesn't happen overnight. And I think that is tough for some people who make that transition, especially if they sold in another industry. I know people who've hired, you know, reps from the tech industry and things like that where things are more quick. Transactional sales doesn't work that way in this industry.

No, does not, does not translate always. For sure.

So you've had a lot of sales success in your own career. I actually would love to hear, you know, when you look back on the, on the time you've spent in the industry, who have been some of your mentors that have helped you get to where you are today and, and what are some of the lessons you've learned along the way in that have allowed you to have the success in sales that you've had?

Yeah, I feel like I could do a whole podcast on just my mentors. I've been so blessed and you know, like my career spanned again, you know, several different companies, you know, start out actually on the benefit side, you know, that's something near and dear to your heart, Andy. I know but start out with Sunlight Financial as a group sales rep. So built some sales acumen there. Of course you're selling to brokers. Then from there I went to Aon. You know, there's Obamacare came along. I realized I wanted to be on the brokerage side, have more impact with the client. Learned property casualty there and from there got went to the boutique broker side one, you know, eight person shop when you're rolling up your sleeves and then in production and then the Palmer K. So along the way each one of those stops, man, I, you know, Paul Danielson at Sunlight Financial, you know, told me, you know, sales techniques, how to be confident. You know, going to Aon, you know, Kathleen Murphy, Andrew Teagarden, I mean slapping down policies and say, hey, we're going through these line by line. You're going to learn that words matter and you know, one word here changes the whole policy. And like you, we got to be detail oriented. The policy must respond. You know, beating that in my head on the profiting casualty side to Pete Marshal, Naughty. You know, I mean, you know, that eight person shop boutique brokerage, we were hitting way above our belt with, you know, clients that Marsh and Am want, you know, it was oil and gas. We're traveling a lot, but in large manufacturing. But, you know, they showed me the grit it takes to be independent and private in, you know, what you have to do to fight for your clients. You know, all these people poured into me and the list goes on. I mean, Keith Titshaw at usi, you know, and Jack K. Palmer and K. The list. I honestly, I'm so blessed to have these people pouring to me. And you know, I try to remember that as much as I can. I know time is a precious thing, but man, you know, I got, you know, I. Anywhere I can, I try to get back and do that myself.

Well, as I say, I'm assuming today you obviously serve as a mentor to some people within your own organization. What, what is some advice you would give a new producer today? You know, maybe somebody who is coming into the industry for the first time. Maybe they've sold, either coming right out of college or they've sold, you know, a different type of pro, different type of product, whether it be payroll, technology, you name it. What advice would you give them if they're asking you, hey, Jack, what does it take to be successful in this industry?

Yeah, you have to invest in yourself and you have to know your product. You know, I know it's easy to say, oh, I'm just the sales guy. I mean, I, I think, and again, depends on what model you're in and what organization you're in. But certainly I, I think on the privately held company side, what we're doing, independent side, you need to know your stuff. People are hiring you. Yeah. Your trustworthiness, you know, so be upfront and honest. It's a small industry, things will get around. And then two, you know, know your stuff. They're at the end of the day, they're hardened because they trust you. They like you and your intellectual capital. Right. What, what are you bringing to the table? Are you educating them? Are you making something that they don't really want to like to think about or it's, we use all these words and lang, are you making it easy for them to understand and are you educating them? So to do that, you got to be an expert yourself. So again, either through mentors, self study, all of the above, just keep learning what's out there. What are the unique solutions? How do we solve these problems? You know, it's a full time job and I'm always learning still, you know, so I guess just never stop learning, you know, work on, you know, you know, your personal brand, your Trust, you know, be known for that, your integrity, because that will follow you around.

Yeah. What you said speaks to my heart because it. When you look at what we're trying to accomplish right now, the investing in yourself is the different. It's what differentiates the best from the rest. You know, we work with a lot of producers in the insurance industry, and we have a lot of people who are interested in our services, but quickly say, well, I'm gonna see if my boss will pay for it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And when I hear that, I know they're not a fit, because if they're not committed to put their own skin in the game, that just doesn't tell me. That tells me they're. They're not committed enough to really want to make this. If you're letting somebody else's decision dictate you getting the help you need, you're not as committed as I. As you might think you are. And I'm sure you've gotten where you've got through personal investment and development. And I look at the people who have greatly succeeded in this industry, and a lot of it starts with the foundation of investing. They're not expecting somebody else to do it for them.

Yeah. It pays off in dividends and spades. Just do it. Yeah, that's. That'd be my advice. Yeah. And never stop doing it. You know, none of us are perfect.

So as I'm curious, as you look ahead, you know, to the next five or 10 years, do you see any, you know, great. I, I dare I ask the obvious question. Where do you see AI playing a big part in the sales process for insurance agencies? You know, I think it's gonna, it's gonna replace people. Right. That's, that's the thing everybody has been talking about for a few years now. But where do you see the opportunities, if any, in how AI could enhance the organic growth at Palmer and K?

Yeah, I'm, I'm bullish on AI I, at least for our industry, I'm, you know, hopeful it, you know, we can work alongside it and not necessarily be replaced. We've been using it more as you know, hey, where can we, you know, where can we get rid of redundancies? Where can we create efficiencies? I think certainly that's where the stage we're at in AI now. And who knows, we may be having robot sell insurance. Yeah. Who knows? Maybe. I hope not. But, you know, at the end of the day, what gives me. I don't know this is good or bad. What gives me, lets me Sleep at night a little bit. It's like just knowing. Certainly on the property casualty side, I mean, I won't call it inefficient, but look, Lloyd's in London is still, they're still at a desk underwriting quotes. Right. And you know, the markets, there's, there's a, there's a thousand markets and maybe one day someone can figure that out, but it's not going to be easy and it's going to take a little while. So I think we may lag a little bit behind the robots handling insurance, but we'll see. But right now, man, I'm bullish on it and it's really cool to see the techniques and what it can do. And look, we've always had, you know, software and we've always been trying to adopt that software earlier, but this just takes that to stair on steroids right now. We do have, we are, we have been very cautious when it comes like, hey, it's a tool. Just like, you know, when we were growing up, the Internet, it's a tool. It's not the Bible. Right. You know, you remember.

Yeah, it's that Internet thing. That's a fad that won't be around that long.

Yeah, yeah, but you know, that's right. We, it is a tool. So it's not, you know, even AI is, can do a whole lot more than that and you know, use a resource, check it. Right. Just because we have something, check a policy for us. Let's. It's not the bible, at least not yet. There are still errors and we still need to compensate for that. On the sales side. Yeah, man. I mean, there's always been these data aggregate, aggregate tools. But yeah, we've had some interesting agents and things brought to us that are intriguing. I do worry, you know, trying to stay ahead the curve, you know, we already know. And Andy, you touched on this so well, so it really resonated with me. It's like in this world we, we had to be different. And yeah, CFOs are already getting inundated, LinkedIn messages and, you know, cold outreach. The numbers have gone. You know, you have the numbers off the top of your head, but the numbers are down. What is that going to look like when you have AI bots reaching out to these people? So what do we need to do to stay ahead of that cold outreach? It's got to, it may just someone's going to figure out a way to block that or filter that or stay ahead of that as well for their C suite. What do we need to do to stay ahead of that. And I think, Andy, your approach is so good. I mean, marketing is important and then some old school techniques. Right.

So. Well, and I think, you know what's interesting about that though, Jack, is there's such a spectrum here that I've had agencies tell me as recently as a week or two ago that they're still evaluating their stance on AI.

Yeah.

Which is, I'm like, wait, you're evaluate like the train is right behind you and can you not hear the whistle? Like this isn't. Should we use it or not?

No, it's, it's happening. It's.

But at the same time, the more it becomes mainstream in the industry or in general, the more important it will become that they still recognize you're human. And what I mean by that is whether that is as something as tactical as using AI for cold outreach, for email, for social media, you name it. You have to make sure it looks and sounds as human as possible.

That's right.

And to your point, I heard AI described as it's automating the mundane so you can focus on the meaningful.

I love that. Yeah.

And if done right, it's going to allow producers to spend more time in a meaningful conversation. You know, one thing we've been telling our clients is if I were doing a sales meeting right now with a prospect, whether it's virtual or in person, I'd get their approval. I'd be recording the call even if it means I have my laptop on the desk. Recording. Why? Because it's going to make my follow up so much more effective. But now I can be fully present in the meeting because I got something taking notes for me. That's right. Like little tools like that go such a long way for somebody in sales where they can be totally focused on what is meaningful to make the sale.

That's right. Then take that. That feeds right in Salesforce and you know, that solves that whole input and I don't want to fill out notes and track that. The more we can automate the stuff, especially on the producer side that you look, I was one of them that we complain about. The better it's going to be for everybody. And that's what I'm excited about. You know, some of the back then, even on the accounting side, we've got some cool AI software there too where that, you know, that's actually kind of scary because that kind of has replaced, you know, that is the one scenario where I can say like, oh yeah, that account receivables Maybe, you know, it's kind of crazy what it can do. We don't need as many of those now and that it's wild, but, you know, that's what we're looking at. And there's so many good programs, niche programs that we've got involved in. We try to stay ahead of that. We always take the meetings and the sales pictures just because we want to know what's out there. Is it better than what we have? Do we need to keep an eye on it, et cetera?

Yeah. What are your thoughts? You brought up the fact that you have to look different, you know, to a CFO or CEO to get, to get attention today. What is your opinion on that? You know, if, if an advisor asks you, hey, Jack, what can I do to stand out in the market today? Because they have talked to 300 other people like me, or at least they're getting hit up by 300 other advisors like me. What can I do to stand out? What would be your advice?

Yeah, I mean, unique programs, unique solutions, you know, creativity, you know, hopefully. You know, I always like to, you know, find what is the problem, what is the pain point? They took a meeting for a reason. What is that? So if you can, most you can do, you know, look, you got to be prepared. These meetings are hard to get. And as much information, background you can get when you get the meeting, when you set the meeting, prepping for the meeting, understanding their business, all that moves the needle. You get one shot and you need to stand out. You need to figure out where the pain point is. People buy on emotions if you think about it. So say, well, I'm fine. I was like, well, you know, you know, even the questions to say, okay, well, when the broker does this, does the, oh, they don't do that. When you, you know, when you, you know, even you're fully insured, are you getting your claims information? Well, you should be, you know, well, how do you make decisions? How do you know if you're ready to move up in plane design or take that risk? And you know, those types of questions, you know, first meeting can be discovery to try to find or develop the pain points. But that's in the day. That's what it is. And then the creative solutions, you know, you, hey, I'm a broker. I'm awesome. You know, you know, we can save you money. You know, that doesn't. They've heard that a million times and probably been burned by that.

Yep.

So credibility is another thing. Examples, you know, it's, it's tough to establish credibility the first time when you're cold calling or an email, there's ways to do that. And look, I'm, you know, we're certainly not saying, hey, don't cold emails and outreach, it still should be part of the solution. I just wonder how much you know of that, you know, will it be as we bots start doing it and how effective will those, you know, these AI agents be? I know, I don't know. I think you could train to be good, and I think that could be, again, part of it. But how can you be different? Whether getting the meeting, you know, and I think some of the old school tactics, you know, being out in front, I always like to say, staying out in traffic. We're humans, we're relationships. So we're be where the CEOs are, be where the CFOs are.

Well, and, and there, there's actually a lot in what you just said that I hope people heard. You know, when somebody takes a meeting with you, they're willing to give up 30, 45, 60 minutes of their time. There's a reason one of the questions I used to love to ask in a prospecting meeting was, I'm curious what intrigued you to take the meeting. It's a question that we overlook so often. But there is a reason. If you ask that simple question, they're going to give you a lot of gold.

Yeah. And I think we're afraid to ask that question, like, hey, I'm just glad you took the meeting. I want to remind you why you took it. But put yourself on the limb. There's a reason and the quicker you can uncover that, the better it's going to be for everybody.

Yeah, no, that, that's very, very well said. The other, the other thing you said there that I wanted people to hear was it's about uncovering their problems, not necessarily what you want to talk about.

That's right.

And I think a lot of producers go into that, that meeting with that mindset of, I'm excited to be able to talk about this and share my knowledge on this without asking it. But is that what they want to hear right now?

That's right.

You have to make it all about them.

And sometimes you assume, oh, I, you know, I sent this as a neat, cold email and, you know, this solution, and maybe, you know, maybe they want to talk about just that, maybe not. Maybe they were intrigued by that and that's a part of it. But yeah, you just can't go in even if you got. That's how you Got the meeting or that's how you think you got the meeting. You don't want to assume. And more questions the better.

Well, and it's funny, Jack, I have to share this. So you know you mentioned a few minutes ago how how we prospect has changed. Right. You know, when I got in 23 years ago, it was basically pick up the phone, smile and dial. Email was still fairly new at that point. A lot more effective back then than it is today. And I had made a post, I shared a video from a woman who is the, the VP of benefits at Albertson Groceries so Fortune 500 company. And she had posted a video on LinkedIn that said, listen, if you want my attention and you're trying to sell me something right now, the odds of you getting my attention by calling me or sending me an email are extremely low. But if you put out content on LinkedIn that I find valuable, you have given yourself the best chance to get my attention. That's basically what she said. And I put that out, I shared it and I said I hope every sales leader of every agency in this industry hears this. I still got pushback on really from sales leaders and people in the industry that said must be nice that she has enough time to look at LinkedIn but not enough time to go in her inbox.

Yeah.

And I was like, you obviously missed what she said. You missed the point. But you're so bought into how you used to do it, you are unwilling to even consider there is a different way to prospect today. And that I would say is a challenge at large in the industry is I think we're still very proud of the way we did it in the 90s. Not understanding our buyers attention has shifted. And so what I would love to hear from you because we are making a big shift right now. I think the average age in this industry is still 59, 60 years old. But we're going to have a mass migration here, mass retirement. How do we get younger producers, how do we continue to bring younger producers into the industry so we can make sure this thing continues to thrive in the future?

Yeah, yeah. I just, first of all, I just want to touch on that last point. I mean that's, that's so great. I love hearing feedback from that especially with buyers or CFOs. And story is. Is very common when I hear as well. And email sucks. Everyone knows that I hate, you know I get a million emails. I cannot imagine my CFOs I work with right. Is you know, there's whole industries built around trying to get less email, you know, slack teams. I mean, no one likes email. And look, when I came along, it was LinkedIn and that was very effective there for a little while. Then you see that shift. We, we have to stay ahead.

Yep.

Now, look, I am never saying don't pick up, you know, we want to encourage people to pick up the phone or there's, there's different ways to communicate. Do some research on your buyer. Try to gauge, hey, what you know, what, you know, even in different age groups, you shouldn't assume, but people like different communication styles. Should we probably try to touch them all. It's not going to hurt, right? But man, cold call when I say cold. Hey, I'm Jack Palmer K. You never heard of Palmer K before? Well, let me tell you, man, good luck. So, you know, that's one thing, you know, Andy, you've done such a great job of branding getting it out there. That's something we need to do a better job at. We're going to do a better job at. But that, that. Okay, if you're going to call, at least it's a warm email, you know, a warm call. I've heard of Palmer K. I might read this that, you know, what chance went from 0 to 5 or 10, but that's still better than none. So. Yeah, I just can't, I can't believe that. And as far as shifting attention spans, I'm always thinking, you know, you know, email. Yeah, people don't like email. What can we do? You know, LinkedIn, it's a great platform now they've updated to be more like, you know, the tick tocks or, you know, X. But what about those other platforms? Is there a way we can target, you know, I, you know, this is something I want to get more into. But when you have your branding down, your message down, are there target ads we can put elsewhere? Where are, where are the CFOs and CEOs? LinkedIn? Are they elsewhere? Where can we stand out? Where can we be different? Is there a way we can target those ads or, you know, whatever, you know, or at least be, you know, influencers. People make fun of them. I do, too. I see some, I listen to my wife, some of the influencers.

She, I think there's a big difference. There's a big difference between Instagram influencers and maybe LinkedIn influencers. Yes.

But, you know, in the, you know, swipe up, click the link, you know.

I, I've said to my fiance, I've come to learn that on Instagram, if you want to have success as a, as a male. You have to have three things.

Yeah, what's that?

You have to be jacked, you have to be tattooed and you have to have a beard. And you have to have a beard.

Over three. Over three.

You have those three things. You will do very well as a male on Instagram.

Yeah, yeah. And no, but, you know, but okay, aside influence, I mean that, that's, people want thought influence. So LinkedIn, how do we translate that? That's how people are digesting. Get. That's where my wife, oh, look, I love this shirt. This person, this thought leader and shopping or whatever she's looking into has spent time doing all this so I don't have to. I'm going to see what she likes. I like her style. I trust her. I've built, I've seen a relationship built. How do we translate that? Maybe not with a swipe up link, but maybe to the insurance. And how, you know, how can we influence that way, be thought leaders. I think we're crazy if we're not doing that or thinking about how to do that better and professionally.

I love what you just said because branding, here's how branding works today. If you have a product you follow or somebody you follow like your wife. I'm an Apple guy. I don't know about you, but I'm an Apple guy, right. I got an iPhone, I got an iPad, I got an imac. When I need a new computer or a new laptop, I don't go, I'm gonna go compare Apple to Microsoft on this one and see who's no, I go, what product does Apple have? And the way branding works today is you want buyers to go, how? Do not, not. How do I compare five different brokers? Who does Palmer and Kay have?

Can they do this? Yeah.

I think the biggest adjustment in training we've got to make now, and this is the thing that has changed more than anything in sales. Back in the day, you and I were taught to pick up a phone, call somebody who doesn't know who you are and ask for their time without delivering any value. Today you cannot do that without building some kind of awareness. So I could give a sales leader any advice? Today it is. You have to teach your producers how to build a brand and become an influencer. By the way, in our world, influencer equals thought leader.

That's right.

How to become a thought leader to your ideal client profile so that when they come to the conclusion it's time to make a change, they think of you. That's the name of the game today, 100%.

Could not agree more. Yeah. And how do we do that? In what way? You know, I've heard some feedbacks like, well, we don't want to give away what we're doing and put it all out there. And, you know. You know, I struggle with that sometimes, too, how much you share, how little. You know, we got this great story, but, yeah, it's a copycat industry. And so, hey, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, but, yeah, how to strike that balance. But I. You know, we can't be afraid of that. You know, we got to go out there, we got to show what we're doing. And, you know, if we're the one marketing and saying it, someone may do it. But as long as we're getting the word out there, I think it's ultimately going to be, you know, the more.

The more you share, the more they'll care. And. And the advice I give agencies that say, but, Andy, we're. We're afraid to put out a little too much because our competition might be listening. Here's my advice. Are people going to use your information to make their broker smarter? Yes. They were never buying from you anyways.

Yeah, that's a good point.

And so I really appreciate this, Jack. This has been a great conversation because I think you provide a really good perspective on where we're going in this industry. You have had a lot of success, says Palmer, and Kay has had a lot of organic growth success, which has been fantastic. And I think you, from what I hear, you guys are adapting the way you need to adapt to continue to thrive as we move ahead. I. I can't say that for every agency right now.

Well, thank you, Andy. And we. We love you. And certainly, yeah, could always use your help, too.

Well, but here. Here, we're gonna have a little.

We're not done yet.

We're gonna have a little fun, because I always wrap the interview. You didn't get these questions in preparation.

This would be fun.

Yeah, we're gonna get to know Jack a little bit. So I always have to end with habits, discipline. This is my jam, man. So we're gonna get to know Jack a little bit more. So first question. Tell me a little bit about your morning routine. What do you do to put yourself in the best position to win each morning?

Key. This is key for dads. Wake up early ahead of the kids. You know, I'm talking, you know, whether you look, you know, I've been trying to get a little bit. Take care of myself a Little better. So a little morning workout routine in office. Yeah. In home, you know, gym. But even if it's not that you need this, you need that mental clarity an hour before the chaos ensues. I have two little girls and you know, they're seven and five, so you can't. The storm is coming. So that hour of peace, whether it's working out, getting your head right, you know, checking up on the news, you need that to stay mentally sharp and mentally focused. So that's key, you know, okay, wake up early, you know, you know, wake up early, get it out, get your day started. I think you need at least an hour. Hopefully some of that's with some exercise, get the Dorfman endorphins going and then embrace the chaos that's coming.

So I love the advice. I can't, I can't, I can't resonate. I don't have children. However, I know a lot of people complain about not having that time in the morning. So your advice is get up earlier. Get up before they do.

That was the hardest transition that just realized that, man, I missed my mornings. And if you just let the chaos come to you without trying to get ahead of it, it will get you. It will.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you got one hour to do a workout.

That's right.

What is your go to workout?

Dude, I, you know, quick job, get the blood flowing, and then, you know, I've been, you know, I'm. The weights, I just luckily have some, you know, weights. I just try to do some resistance, fill still some strength, maintain some semblance of the former athlete that I was waiting.

What did you play? What sports you play in high school?

Football and basketball.

Any. Any college?

No college, you know, that's right. I, I had offers to go like D2, you know, okay, D2, coastal Carolina or this Southern Illinois. But I didn't, you know, I got into Georgia. I saw how, unfortunately I saw how much fun that was and I was like, you know, I'm not exactly advancing myself education wise in some of these schools I got offered at. And yeah, I went.

That's great. I love that. How about this? You got an afternoon to yourself. How are you going to use that time? What are you going to do for fun if you had your choice?

If I had my choice. I like being outdoors, man. Luckily, I have some cool clients. I mean, some outdoor rafting clients as well. I enjoy hiking, you know, water rafting. That's really fun. Just being out in nature. I enjoy golf. Just, you know, if I had that It'd be one of those two things just out nature or on the golf course.

Awesome. Any, any books you're reading right now or recently read that you recommend?

Yeah, I finally got on the traction train. I'm in a CEO group and they're like, yeah, I heard it. You know, that's all I heard about. I was like, well, we need to look into this and see if this, if there's anything we can take in a Palmer K. And I've heard enough about it and I just, I don't want to be the bandwagon jumper on. But I read that that was good and I think we're going to implement some of that into Palmer and K. Some erp. So that's been the recent one. How about you?

I just read the one, I'd say most recent that I has still been like, is the science of scaling. Dr. Benjamin Hardy. He also wrote 10x is easier than 2x, a great prequel to Reading Science Scaling. Fantastic.

Okay.

Yeah, that's a fantastic book. All right, last question. I'm going to put you on the spot. You're in a prospect, you're in a proposal situation. Why should I hire Palmer and K?

It's easy. So first of all, Andy, we are going to come up with solutions that your broker probably has not showed you. You know, a recent example, we just took a client similar to your size. They were struggling with their insurance cost. We were helping them on one piece of the policy. They were trying to actually trying to cancel that policy because cash flow is tight. You know, even with that cash flow situation, we said, hey, look, slow down, let's look at it. Doesn't sound like this is our piece of the puzzle is the problem. It sounds like it's this. I know you need to have that, you know, general liability. You have to have that to work with the, the vendors you work with. Let us take a look at that. We saved them $600,000 by switching to, you know, not just guarantee cost insurance. Now, you know, there's claims in there. We brought the analytics and actuary team in there. But we, we're going to support you with data and give these decisions with data. And that's, you know, their claims are running great. It's just the industry they were in, they were getting penalized. It's just a hard market and they were paying for other people's claims. This is the perfect case, case scenario for, hey, taking some skin the game. We gave them the confidence and, you know, the numbers behind that to allow them to do that. And they were to shave and add $600,000 to their bottom line. You know, in their case, they run at 10 profits. That's like $6 million, you know, of revenue. We found them, right. They'd have to sell $6 million to get that 600, 000 to the bottom line. We'll be your lead sales guy, and we can help.

I love it. You went there. You showed me how it can impact my p. L. I'm in. Love it, man. And you went with a case study, which is always good. Teach me how you helped other people like me. And I'm interested. So.

Yeah.

Well, Jack, it's been a fantastic conversation, man. Thank you for taking the time to be here. I think a lot of people are going to like this and learn a lot from that. So one more time, man. Thank you for. For being here.

Thank you, Andy. It was a pleasure.

Everybody else, take notes. From what you hear from Jack, one of the. The good sales leaders in the industry, this is an opportunity to create some great organic growth right now. You leverage AI to make it easier for you, but you've got to leverage the opportunity. Don't put your head in the sand. The stuff isn't slowing down anytime soon. Be good.

Thanks, Andy.