Big Kids, Bigger Feelings: Parenting Through the Ages 5–12 Shift with Alyssa Campbell

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Hey, it's Dr. Tracy and I'm so glad you're here because today's episode is such a good one Today, I'm joined once again by Alyssa Blask Campbell, who many of you will remember from her last visit two years ago almost. Alyssa is the founder and CEO of Seed and so and a selling author whose mission is to change the way adults experience children's emotions so we can raise emotionally intelligent humans. She's the author of Tiny Humans, Big Emotions and has an upcoming book, Big Kids, Bigger Feelings, which is all about navigating those elementary school years with confidence and connection. In our conversation today, Alyssa brings her wisdom, warmth, and real life strategies for helping both parents and kids navigate big feelings. I know you're going to walk away from, from this one with so many insights. It was such a great conversation and I just loved connecting with Alyssa. So let's go into today's session. Alyssa, I'm so glad you're here with me today. Thank you for joining me back here on the podcast. We've done this before.

I know. What a treat to get to do it again. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I. I'm going to link our first episode because it was one I remember just us feeling really connected and grounded in the conversation and you had so much to share from your first book. This I can't even believe it's two years ago from. And I have it right beside me. Tiny Humans, Big Emotions. I was in Indigo recently and a mom was wearing her baby and looking at what parenting to book book to buy and I pulled it out and passed it to her.

Oh, you're the best.

It was. It was also the week where I then went on to Instagram and saw that it was a New York Times bestseller. So congratulations. This is a milestone.

Thank you. Yeah, you know what? It was so rad was, you know, a lot of times when you're a New York Times bestseller, it happens that first week, that Pub week.

Yes.

Pre orders play a huge role in that. There's excitement, there's a lot of press and publicity and people are taking a gamble on you and saying, yeah, I'm going to give this book a whirl. And for us, with Tiny humans, it was 22 months after pub, so almost two years after it published and it really just spread from our village. People got the book, they were reading it, it was serving them and they shared it. And that, for me, has just been so rad of it. We didn't do anything. It wasn't marketing, it wasn't publicity. It was people reading it and sharing it with their communities and feeling like it served them so much that they wanted to share it. And I feel so stinking grateful for the humans that made it a bestseller, but really the humans who just kept.

Sharing it and also recognizing how helpful it is, how needed it is. The frameworks, the advice, the tips in there is so important and just for listeners to understand. There are hundreds of thousands of books that are released each year. Very few make the New York Times bestseller list. And to make that list, it is just such a huge win. And it's all the more reason, reason when you see people promoting their book, doing the pre orders. My listeners know my book is on pre order right now. To get the book to share it, it costs you nothing to share. Share it, talk about it. It's, it's so important. So. Oh, I'm just cheering you on. And I love that we get to have part two of this because. Well, you tell me, tell us the origin story of book two, which is called Big Kids, Bigger Feelings.

Yeah. After Tiny Humans published pretty quickly, we were getting messages from people who were like, oh my gosh, this is so good and so helpful or whatever. And what do I do with my 9 year old? Like why are they a teenager? What happens with this? And we just kept getting messages like that of this next age range. And a lot of our work behind the scenes at Seed that I feel like isn't actually very front facing is actually with schools. Most of what we do is working with teachers and with schools and with programs that are serving and supporting kids. Whether it's childcare programs in the daycare world or elementary middle schools really that like 5 to 12 year old range, we do a lot of work there. And I specifically, like most of my time is in that space. And so I've been doing this work with teachers and with parents and just collecting all these stories of kids and their journeys and who they are and what their experiences are and what questions parents are coming to us with and what challenges teachers are seeing. And so when these questions started to come up from our community and from our village right after Tiny Humans, we were like, okay, there might be a gap here in these middle childhood years where, you know, the early years are so exhausting. It's physical. You're growing a human or birthing them or feeding them and it's around the clock sleep and just so many decisions and physical carrying of a human. And then the teenage years are emotional and it's that pull away from you even more so into themselves and the big feelings and hormonal shifts. And there's incredible resources like Lisa d' Amore's work in the teen years. And there's this kind of gap in resources and support for families in that 5 to 12 year old range. Words like a myth that everything's chill when they're in this space and in reality it's not so chill.

So that's where I need listeners to know my face in that moment because I. And I'll share this. One of the biggest moments for me was seven and I was not ready for seven. This explosion of anger from both of my kids in a very normal way. But this almost overnight experience of where did my baby go? Where, where Was that curious 4 year old? And that was so confusing. And I remember almost even like leading up to like coming to this moment of it kind of chokes me up a little bit because it's like, did I do everything wrong in those who do six?

Yeah.

And I spent time spiraling in that of like, oh my word, I have ruined my child. Which I know, like we all have those fears. I just worked with that with a client this week of, you know, we just have that where and where do we find this good enough parenting? But then we see our kids changing and struggling and it's a whole other set of tools that I just wasn't ready for 100%.

And it's interesting that you note 7 because Brene Brown has some research around this specific age and how there's a shift under seven. We really rely on an adult to keep us alive. Not to say that if you like plop a seven year old out in the wild, they're gonna thrive. But they could find shelter, they can find food, they can physically move their body in a way that like a baby cannot or be able to access language and communication skills. Like a one year old might not be able to. And so seven is this pivotal developmental shift. And with that comes this really look outside of the house in terms of their identity of who am I in the world and what does it mean for me to feel included in, like I belong outside of my house, what am I interested in? Who do I want to hang out with? What fires me up and what do I need to belong in those spaces with those people doing those things? And it's a real like pull out of codependence into interdependence, independence. And it's a doozy in a lot of households.

Yeah, it almost felt like this new defiance and, and, and these are very adult words and adult labels. And we know we didn't say it to our kids, but I know Greg, my husband and I would conversations behind closed doors of like, how can they be so disrespectful? I, I think it was actually at 7 that my youngest, my daughter one time had.

Kicked me with her foot, throat punched me with her foot. And it was, I screamed because it was, it was first painful and an. A sheer shock of like. And I removed myself. But it was just like, whoa, what is this?

Yeah, that, that was even a possibility that that's a thing that could happen.

Right. Whereas when we think of these tiny little ones, we think, okay, they're four. It makes sense. You. You know, I remember kids biting in the kindergarten class that my kids were in. Okay, you're coloring on someone else's shirt. Oh, you remember my son, My son got hit with a block on his head one day from a kid in the playground. I was like, oh, kindergarten, you kind of get it. Yes.

But then it's like, right, it's that age bias, right? Where we have, we write about this in the book. The. You're old enough to know better and we have this idea that like you're old enough to know better and different things come up at different ages and stages. And we see it really come in hot here in these elementary school years of I have these certain expectations of your skill set and. And I want you to have access to that skill set all the time now.

Oh gosh, that's so powerful because I think about.

My clients then, my adult clients who then recall their earliest memories which many of the core beliefs are forming around age 7. Is that, is that right to say? I mean it starts earlier but I started to see them with my kids for the first time around 6, 7, 5, 6, 7.

Well, it is that like, because now they're going to start to question some of the home stuff in a little bit of a way and start to really look outside of just home. And they start to. It's an identity shaping time. The like 7 to 9 year old range. They're really looking at who am I in a new way. And with the identity shapers comes a lot of defiance, a lot of pushback of maybe what is or has been true at home. Trying different things on for size, needing specific things. Like now they need that water bottle and they are going to show up in relationship in different ways to see how does this feel, what does it look like, what happens when. And it is so much of this middle childhood time is emotional for us as the adult that we. There's the letting go, the oh, they're gonna go and like not Just have a playdate that I'm at where, like, I'm going to the birthday party and I'm present at it. But just as when you were on my podcast and we were chatting for a minute, which is coming out soon for your book, we were talking about your child being like, oh, I want to. You were going to have a movie night, and then they were invited to go ride bikes with their friend. And you're like, oh, you cling to those moments of togetherness. And then they're like, actually, I want to go hang out with my friend. And how that feels for us, right? That, like, your child might be doing fine. They're going off and playing with their friend. It's the us part of this season that's such a doozy. And what's so interesting, a few of the humans, because we interviewed a bunch of kids for Big Kids, asked them a number of questions, and one of them was, what do you wish your parents knew about you that you don't feel like you can tell them? And a number of them were, like, around friendships and that they wanted to have more time with friends, but that they had a lot of like, no, this is just family time. And that there was, like, some resentment building. And what's interesting is on the parent side of that, because we interviewed the parents of these kids as well. We got a lot of things from the parents of those kids that were like, I just want to hold on to them a little longer.

And it was this like, kind of push pull of parents saying, like, I need more of you. I'm not ready for you to pull away. And the kids saying, as you pull me in, I actually want to pull away more.

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That is the experience of emotional fusion. I talk about this with couples is that the more you cling to someone, the more you tell them what to do it actually. And so we talk about like codependency and not saying that parents are doing the codependency thing, but when I think of the adults who come in and they're fused together, these are the people where you feel more disconnection because the more you try to hold on and make someone feel a certain way or do a certain thing or we have to, it works against you. And so for adults then in adult relationships we see a decrease in desire, arousal, intimacy because naturally we're like pushing against and, and it is, it makes me the image I get is really the eight month old. And again, I know we're talking about middle child but just as the analogy of it, it's the eight, eight month old who's p mom because they want to or any caregiver pushing away because they want to go play at the blocks on the floor but the mom's.

Like no, no, I want the hug.

Right? And like of course I get it, I get it. But it's the attunement to what the child needs. Yeah, I, I think our conversation is a gift to me today as well, Alyssa because I had said to Greg recently as the kids were going out to the park, we lived near a park and the first time they would go on their own, I felt like my heart Was living outside of my body. Like, it was like, what do you. Like, I'm not there. I'm not at the park. My. Like, they're just. They're just. My heart is walking out there and it's so scary.

I want to just go peek. Can I just have a little preview into this? Can I just pop. I'm just gonna do a little walk by.

Yeah. No, I did not. But the urge, right. The urge was so strong. And it. It's really interesting because now that they're practicing this autonomy and stretching, so now they're going a little bit further up the street on their bikes. Now, one day, it sweet. They're like five kids. They're all on their bikes, like, riding up and down.

And.

And I just like, this is childhood right now. It's so cool. They're out riding their bikes. But I remember saying to Greg, I'm worried I'm not doing enough family time. I'm worried I'm not structuring the family stuff, am I? Am I? And I think as a therapist, I naturally bring in this fear of avoidance that I'm like, practicing too much distance. Or am I? I. I imagine my kids in therapy in 10, 15 years being like, the therapist is like, so, what do your. What did your parents do? But my mom's a psychologist and she was always asking us, how did we feel? It's like.

But. But the fear really of, am I creating too much distance? So I think it's. It's really interesting then to think some. One of the most powerful relational skills that we have is attunement. So the kid who's not ready to ride their bike versus the kid who's saying, can I go ride my bike around the block with my bestie?

Yeah. And how, like the now parts of these years, this early childhood, but really in this middle childhood range, when they start to pull away, we have this opportunity to let them know that they're safe to do so. And when we cling more and more and more, the message that they can receive is, it's not safe for you to go out into the world and do that. And then they become teenagers, and we're like, oh, we want you to flourish and go and do these things. And if up until that point, what they've received is, it's not safe for you to go out into the world without me, it's this mixed message of, we are. We have this opportunity now to build these foundational skills, to give them these moments of practice where they are going to the park, they're riding their bike with friends. They have these like 15, 20 minute, maybe 30 minute chunks of practice out on their own that then grow into an hour, a few hours. Maybe they go to a sleepaway camp or something, right? Like you get to continue to stretch this rubber band so that then they are building a foundation for these skills to eventually go off into the world and live on their own and have a skill set for how to navigate the world and be in relationship without you standing right there, without you solving each thing, without you knowing every detail. Right. That they have this. I just thought of this conversation I had. I work with this one school district and it's a high needs school district. A lot of kids in this school district have at least one incarcerated parent. A lot of homelessness. And there was a. There's a child who has a lot of trauma and his dad just is. He's newly living with his dad who had not met him and now he's. The kid's five. And there were a lot of school behavior challenges. And they live in a motel. They're on a wait list for subsidized housing. They had been homeless before. The kiddos lived with dad and he. We were in a meeting and dad said, I know that right now these boys, because he has a brother a couple years older than him, should be living in a space where they can go do their own thing. Where I don't see everything they're doing, but we're all in one room. And so I'm seeing everything. And I'm seeing every mistake and I'm hearing every conversation and every time they say a bad word or do this thing to their brother and I'm there standing over them all the time and I know this isn't best for them. And I don't know another way around it. And I was like, what a brilliant human. Right? That he was.

So beautiful insight, right? Yes.

And I was like, yeah. Kids need space from us. They need time to make mistakes, to have conflict with kids that we don't step in and swoop in and solve or move.

They need to experience the challenges of being a human on planet earth and then choose what do they turn to us with to support them.

And if we're there all the time, they don't get to practice that.

That's really interesting because sibling conflict is a common thing that shows up for the people that I work with or even in my friend community as well, or even within ourselves. It's like, what do we do here around some of this because our own patterns show up. And what was done to us, how we experienced our own birth order sibship, what our parents did to navigate our own conflict. And I'm like, all, if, if we're not slowing down and tuning into that, we're going to be repeating the patterns of what our parents or other siblings did to us. And something that Greg and I have been working on with our kids is asking, do you need support or can you work through this on your own? And it's pretty powerful to just step back and, and then at the same time. Oh, Alyssa, I think I told you this two years ago. The time when I think my little guy was five then and he like ran down. Was he five? Four? He was young. And he ran down the hall and slammed the door. And in my head I heard you slam the door one more time and I'm gonna take the door off.

Yes, right. I do remember this.

And, and, and yet I did not. For everyone listening, the door is still there. And we work through door slamming. There's no more door slamming. And you know, my kids know, they go to their rooms, they can do what they want in their rooms. They've got space. The last argument they had, I let them work through it. At one point, they were going in circles at like minute 15, I, I said, hey, guys, do you need my support? And they were both like, nya, butt out. And then suddenly they were on the same team. They were on the same team and they're like, oh, mom, we got this.

Mom, you don't have to interrupt.

And it was like, cool, guys, so glad. And then they were best buds again.

And it was just, it was so.

Cool, you know, it is so rad.

Kids are cool and they have so many skills. When we let them practice them. One of the things that feels really important to us, that in this book we dive into, we dive into in tiny humans as well. It's really what we do. A lot of at seed is helping you and your child understand how their unique brain and body work and that it's not a one size fits all. And when they can understand what is draining for them, what's recharging for them, what are ways they like to connect? What are ways other people like, like to connect? What drains other people, what recharges them, it helps them move through the world that. I mean, even in my household, my husband and I have two totally different nervous systems. And so what drains him throughout the day is different than what drains me. What recharges him is different than what Recharges me. We recently we were going on a family vacation. We were going to be gone for 10 days all together and love my family and 10 days all together with also other humans mixed in. The weekend before we carved out time where Zach got to have a few hours to do whatever he wanted to fill his cup, I got to have a few hours to do over. I wanted to fill my cup a little bit. And Zach's was fully spent solo. He went record shopping by himself. He took himself out to lunch, went for a walk outside all solo. I would come back from that and be like, hi, I need to do something because my cup isn't full. I went thrift shopping with my friends, we went out to brunch. Like it was all fully hanging out with people. And if Zach had done that, he'd come back drained. And so when we understand how our nervous systems work, it's so huge for us learning how to navigate the world. And if something I think that's so cool about siblings is that we have the opportunity to show this right within our household. Very rarely do the kids that we have in our household have the same nervous system where the same things drain them, the same things recharge them, the same ways of connection, it usually varies in my household. My oldest is autistic and sensory sensitive. And the way that his brain works is so different than the way that my daughter's brain works. And we just get to talk about that. We get to talk to them about how their brains and bodies work. He gets to learn that she loves connection and touch and that the way that she loves connection can be really draining for him. And so he can. He knows that she's going to keep asking to connect and eventually it's not going to be in a way that he wants, right? And that not connecting with her isn't going to make the need for connection go away. And he's been able to build these skills that when she sees him in the morning and she says, hi, Seiji, high five, he can come over and give her a high five. And if he doesn't, that's fine, but she's going to keep trying to then connect. She's going to come back into his space, she's going to say good morning, she's going to snuggle up, she's going to keep trying. And so he's learned if I just turn to her and I give her a moment of my connection, it actually drains me less than if I push her away. And she keeps trying.

And I think when we think about these big kids in this 5 to 12 year old range, if they don't know how their brains and bodies work, if they don't know how do I like to connect, what does fill me up? We know what this looks like in adulthood. So many of us are living in where we came to adulthood. We don't know how our brains and bodies work or how we want to connect or not connect. And now we're trying to figure it out. And so in big kids, we're giving you this toolkit for helping your child learn this about themselves. Now to navigate the world. Yeah.

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Wow.

I hear so much of the self and other experience. Who am I? And then what is the other person experiencing? And this is what we do in therapy a lot with our clients, with our, with my adult clients and saying, yes, this is your experience. This is a valid experience. Now let's look to see what the other person might be experiencing and how are they experiencing you in that and then. Right, and then how are we going to co create this and do this together? And because both of your feelings are important and you each have to talk about your own needs and how you're going to do that. And it is though those are core skills. You, you walk us through the collaborative emotion processing method and so tell us a bit more about what, what that focus is on.

Yeah, so Lauren Staubel, my co author of Tiny Humans, she and I co created the set method and we researched it and it is what all of our work's based on and it's how to build emotional intelligence. It's five components and four are about us as the adult and then one is adult child interactions. So it really helps us notice what's coming up for ourselves, learn how our own brains and bodies work. That that self care example of Zach taking care of himself is different than me taking care of myself. Understanding the power of our own regulation. And then it doesn't mean we fix or solve a child's problem. But if I come in with this tone and this body language where I'm powering over, it sends a certain message to my child's nervous system of like, yeah, don't let your guard down with her. She's here to fight you. Versus even if I am annoyed with what they're doing with their sibling or the way that they're behaving, because I know that they have a skill set they're not tapping into. I know they're old enough to know better. And I pop in and I say, oh my gosh, I'm not totally sure what's going on here. I'm feeling really frustrated because we were supposed to leave five minutes ago and I asked you to do X, Y and Z and I came back in and we're still at the same place. Help me understand what's happening here. And my tone is like this. And my body Language is down on their level. It sends a totally different message than what are you doing? Get your shoes on. We're supposed to be out the door. And then it shifts how we get to be in relationship with them. That our whole goal with all of this work with the set, the set method is entirely focused around how do we build emotional intelligence in the adults and in the kids so that ultimately we can just be in relationships with one another. That it's not about perfection. It's not about me always showing up with the perfect words or the perfect reaction or my kid having perfect behavior or a perfect response. It's about how do we navigate relationship with one another in a way that's going to be messy and respectful.

Ultimately.

I, I love that and I will say I'm not perfect. And last night I totally hear myself. I came in and bedtime boundary is something that I really struggle with because I'm tired by the end of the day.

Why are you not in your bed sleeping already? And it's, it's a theme for me. It's totally my thing. And I came in after walking the dog and I was tired and I was like ready to get to bed and the kids had finished their bedtime snack and they were still reading at the table. I love, I love that they are these deep readers. It's amazing. Like, it's great, but reading and eating at the same time means It's a 30 minute process. And so I, I said, guys, we're not in bed yet. And I had said something twice. And then my oldest was like, you don't have to say it twice. I was like, I know, I know.

Well, when I said it once, nothing.

Happened, nothing happened 30 minutes ago when.

I said quick snack.

But you know, and it's so interesting because I, I think one of the things that we forget, and Greg and I talk a lot about this too, is even just seeing them as small. And so something I do with my clients. When we're going back to some of these difficult, hard, traumatic memories that have shaped their experiences today, I'll ask when's the last time you walked by a 7 year old? When's the last time you saw a group of 8 year olds playing at the playground? Because actually they're small. And so it is, it's really interesting that when we take that healing that we do for our own inner child, but then we go to our, our big kids kids, but we still view them as small. They're still small.

They're so small. They're so small. But it is hard, right? Especially if it's the oldest or whatever. And you're like, I need you to have your together because I'm trying to help your younger sibling with this thing. And it is.

I. This is so funny that you bring this up because it was like probably four days ago. Zach and I were on the couch and we were looking back. It was like Google Photos hit me with these like flashback pictures of Sage.

How rude. Like two.

Yes. And we were like, oh my God, look how little he was. And then we realized that he was older than Mila is now. And we were like, oh, wow, she's not even there yet. And that feels like such a little baby. And there are so many times where I'm like expecting more of her because she's not a physical baby anymore. And I'm like, oh my God, she's. She is a baby. She's just a little baby. She's almost two year old baby, right? Like, yeah. It is wild how quickly we just are like, oh, nope. This is who they are now. This is the oldest they've ever been. Every single day. This is the oldest they've ever been. And it is so hard. I love that, like tapping into like, man, there's seven.

Seven.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

There's so much they can't do yet.

Yet.

Like they're a, they're a baby.

Their. Their brains are still babies and, and they're incredible. They ask such cool questions. My daughter had asked one day, do ants get lost? Do ants sleep? I'm like, I don't know. But like, I, I love that. But the other thing too, I often tap into around these big kids is, is the modeling of love for them. So having my son being 10, I didn't expect so perhaps maybe similar to your family. My youngest, she is the connection one. She was my barnacle baby. She needs to be somebody totally. And it's so lovely. And early on those early days, I like around one to three, I'd be like, I just need some space. And so now she can fill up her connection cup with lots of other people in the family, which is great.

And. And then the oldest, though the gift of our, our youngest is that she brought in the cuddles because our oldest wasn't as cuddly and now he's super cuddly. And I didn't expect my 10 year old to be this cuddly. But as I said to you on your podcast, I feel this like, push, pull because they're like, I'm autonomous mom. Listen to this David Guetta song. And I'm like, yeah, I know this. David, get a song, right? But then there's these really vulnerable moments of deep, big emotions and he just needs to be held. And because he's physically getting bigger too, he's almost five feet. So it's like, what's this like? But I. I often think of, we are their first models of love, especially for our boys. Where are their first models of love for hetero boys who. What it means to learn to love a woman, to learn to love anybody, and holding them close still and seeing that vulnerability and tenderness in them. We're not babying them. We're just saying, you're still growing. It's okay to need this.

You don't go out needing attention, connection, love, being held. Right? And I think of how this shows up in different seasons for us where, you know, I think of me like postpartum and somebody physically helping me pull up those underwear that are like, have the giant pad in them and physically holding my arm to get me back into bed and bringing me food and delivering this baby into my bed to nurse and snuggle with and taking care of me. And I. I don't want to raise kids who think that they're supposed to grow out of. Of needing support or asking for help. I want them to know that there are going to be hard days and hard seasons and it's okay to ask for help. And sometimes as an adult, asking for help on those days means we're ordering takeout instead of making dinner, or I am going to curl up on the couch and we're going to have a family movie night and have popcorn and pizza and just chill and be in this because we're all spent. And then that it's okay to do that, that we don't always have to have access to everything and all of our skills and do it independently.

There is this idea that we're supposed to build these skills and then stand on our own two feet all the time. And it's called the collaborative emotion processing method for a reason. I don't believe we're supposed to move through the world fully as independent creatures. I do believe that we're all supposed to lean on each other. That, you know, last week we were just, like, hit with, like, childcare challenges and still work schedules that had to happen and all that Jazz. And I reached out to a friend of mine who's a stay at home mom, and I was like, can I pay you to take my kids for some hours? And she was like, no, you cannot pay me. Please send me your kids for a few hours. And then like showed up at my house with the dinner. I was like, you took care of my kids and then provided dinner. Help me understand. But it is how we're meant to live, right? We have a rule in our neighborhood with a few houses around me that if you're traveling with your family and you come back from a family vacation, you don't cook that night that one of us is cooking and you're popping over for dinner and it is so lovely when you get back after like a road trip and it's 4pm and your kids are a disaster and just covered in whatever car snacks they've eaten. And you just step out and you're like unpacking and remember, oh, somebody else is making dinner tonight.

I love that our needs, our needs to rely on others never go away.

No. Yes. No. And I look at, I have this little guy in my life and he's 11. And he was like, liz, do you sometimes just wish that somebody would come in and give you a bath like you were a baby and put you to bed? And I was like, buddy, most nights, Most nights I wish somebody would brush my teeth and give me a bath and put me to bed. Yes. And I was like, do you want some help tonight? Is there something I can help you with? And he got his jamazon. And I was like, why don't you just lay here and I can just tickle your. He loves. Have his. He loves to be touched. I was like, I can tickle your face. And we can lay and watch a show. And we just. He's 11 and just put his face in my lap and I tickled his face and we watched a show, the couch and just snuggled. And then when it was time to go to bed, I physically carried his 11 year old body that's like my size into his bed and just tucked him in. And I think we all need that sometimes and especially our boys that especially need to not stop taking care of them and letting them know that they get to be vulnerable and ask for help.

Oh my goodness, I'm gonna feel so filled up for days after having this conversation with you. And I cannot stress enough just this book, how much it is needed. It's already been on my nightside table. It's now going to be moving to Greg's nightside table. After a sticky moment the other night in the car and how Greg and I then afterwards talked about repeating our own patterns and how we can do differently with our Kids and. Oh, my gosh.

There.

I. I wanted to ask. Okay, I want. I want to do this one piece, and then we'll wrap up. Is that okay?

Yeah, of course.

Lying. Sure. Lying shows up and is super sticky. What's the deal with lying?

What we know.

I know you have a whole chapter in the book.

Yeah, we do. All behaviors. Communication of a need. Right. And so lying doesn't happen on accident. It happens for a reason. And I'm so much more interested in getting curious about, like, why is this happening than just punishing them for the lie. Punishing them for the lie is so temporary. We tell this story in the book about this kid who is saying, like, yeah, no, I finished my homework, didn't have any homework tonight. All that jazz. And then it ends up coming out that they're failing this class, and they have not been doing their homework or turning it in. And the parents are like, what? Like, fully shocked. Thought it was getting done. The child's been lying to them. And of course they're scared, like, how is this going to affect their future? They're going to fail this class. And it is so easy to go into that of, like, no, you are not allowed to lie to me. And now I need to punish you or you need to feel a consequence so that you know that lying is not okay. A lot of us grew up in that.

And it's a conversation Greg and I have all the time around how it was not around obedience, around certain behaviors, being respectful, around being the good boy or good girl. No lying. And. Because if you did, and we have said if we ever did that, that would not fly for us.

Exactly. And, like, that's all we know is what we have been raised in. When we are looking at lying and we can enter into it from a place of curiosity, we outline these four reasons that kids might lie. Task avoidance. That a child lies about brushing their teeth in the morning. Because. Because the tasks of the day are just too much. Where they're like, do.

Do you know? Like, all of my parents have had this conversation with me in sessions this summer. Sunscreen. Sunscreen and toothbrushing. Getting out the door for camps. It's just horrible.

Ridiculous. The reality is. And we get real nerdy with you about the nervous system, understanding how your unique child works and executive function is. Is something that requires a lot of energy and capacity to be able to, like, go through the tasks, to get out the door, to get to bed. And what we know is those bookends of the day, the getting out the door for school or whatever, and then getting into bed are two parts of the day that have a ton of tasks. It's like you're getting up, you're brushing your teeth, you're having breakfast, you are putting on your clothes. You might have to walk to school or go to a school bus. There's all these little micro things that have to happen to actually get out the door. And so when their brain feels overwhelmed from the tasks, they might lie about, like, yeah, I brushed my teeth. Because really, they're just saying, like, I don't have the energy to go through all these tasks or remember all the tasks. Embarrassment. This is the kid that's like, yeah, no, I didn't fart. I mean, adults do this too. Absolutely. It was not me, right? Like, nope. And that makes total sense to lie to save yourself from the embarrassment. Especially you're in a peer group and you're like, oh, I know if I tell the truth that this could have social ramifications. Like, absolutely not. I'm gonna lie here.

Makes me think of my highly sensitive kid. Yeah.

Oh, a hundred percent. And especially when we look at this, we look at. We get nerdy here about neuroceptive sensitive. So when we look at that highly sensitive umbrella, if we're looking under that, in our neuroceptive, sensitive humans, neurocept is that energy. So, you know, if you, like, walk into a room and two people have been in conflict and they're not fighting anymore, but you can feel it in the space, and you're like, oh, this is uncomfortable. That's your neuroceptive sense at work. It reads the energy in the space. And so for our humans who are neuroceptive sensitive, they notice those nonverbal cues. They notice that energy in the space, and they are really aware if there's going to be social implications. Patients, because they notice it way beyond the words that are said. They see the little groups forming, they see the chattering happening. They notice all that in a heightened sense. So under that highly sensitive umbrella for neuroceptive, sensitive kids, embarrassment is the bane of their existence.

Yes.

Guilt. So if they're like, yeah, I broke that picture frame, I have a distinct memory. I have four brothers. And being in conflict with my brother Andrew is pretty much the theme of my childhood. And. And I had chucked a shoe at Andrew in conflict, and it put a hole in the wall. And that immediately was like, our truce. Because we're like, ah, we have to fix this before mom and dad get home. And, like, rearranged the living room. We're like, look, we tried this out and like ended up hanging a picture frame above it or covering that, that hole because, yeah, now I'm gonna get in trouble for doing this thing. I'm gonna lie if I'm gonna be in trouble if it is always worth it for me to lie.

Control is another one. They say they were first in line so that they could pick a prize. Right. But they're like, no, I was first. I got this because they want to have the thing. They want to be in control of what happens next. There's always a reason for the lie. And so when we can get curious about, man, what's driving this lie, what are they trying to gain from this? Or what are they trying not to lose from this, then we can actually address that root of like, oh yeah, it makes sense to lie about farting totally fine. I would do the same thing, have done the same thing. Right. Like, I also don't want to be embarrassed in front of a group of people or oh man, I heard you say, yes, you brushed your teeth and I just noticed when you came in and kissed me that you did not brush your teeth. I'm not mad at you. There's so many things that we have to do to get out the door. I can help you brush your teeth this morning and then we can figure out maybe a little checklist that'll help you remember all the things we have to do to get out the door. Right. So really looking at like, what is driving the lie and how do we troubleshoot shoot that so that we're not just seeing these reoccurring lies over and over and can actually reach the root of it and know that they're still going to lie sometimes in their life also. You are too, as an adult.

Yes, of course, Absolutely. For all of the same reasons. Adults do the same things. I think of couples who say, yeah, I'll be home at 5 when they know very well that they're only getting out of a meeting at 4:50 and the commute's 20 minutes home and they could say, I'll actually be probably closer to 5:20. But they don't say, say it because they're avoiding something. Yeah, yeah.

The conflict.

Yeah. Hard feelings or the whatever. Hard feeling, the guilt, the shame, all the things. Right. So it is, it is interesting when we view it as something that's functional for them. There's a good reason they're doing it and getting curious about it rather than coming in, in that top down perspective of, well, now you're going to get punished and there's a consequence and all the of things.

Right. It just doesn't change it in the future.

Right.

For me, I'm really. There's so much to keep track of in parenting that I'm like, what gives me the best bang for my buck? And if in the moment a punishment was going to give me the best bang for my buck for the long term, maybe that'd be worth it. But this is one of those where, like, it's not worth it that in the moment it's not going to change the current lie and it's probably going to produce more in the future. Future.

Yep.

It's not the best bang for my buck.

H. That's such a good question right there. But I'm chuckling because I think of a friend who their kid was whining and they were past halfway in this five hour car ride. And just out of frustration, the one parent goes, if you don't stop whining, we're going to turn around and we're not having this vacation for the rest of. For the rest of the car ride. It was like, turn around, turn around. We're not having this vacation. I want to go home.

You know?

Oh, parenting. We have to laugh a little bit too along the way. Oh, my goodness, Alyssa.

I hate whining.

Oh, I'm with you. I get it. It's the nervous system grading on it, right? Where. Where do people find you? How do they get the book? It's coming out on Tuesday, so people are probably listening to this right as it's coming out. Where do people get it?

Yeah, get it wherever books are sold. Big kids, bigger feelings. And if you're an audio human, that's the only way I consume books in this current season of my life. Then you can listen to that audiobook. I read the audio for both of my books as well. And I want to hear your takeaways, like, come on over at Seed and so sew over on Instagram. I love to hear, like, what hits for you. What are you so curious about? And one of the things we have in the book, we have a QR code folks can scan where they can understand how their child's unique nervous system works. So we look at the senses and get a little nerdy with you and see, like, what's going to recharge this kid's battery and what's going to drain their battery.

Oh, I love that.

Oh, it was so dreamy to put together. We worked with a group of occupational therapists to do it. And and it's so. It really changed the way I moved through the world when I understood this about myself, my husband, my kids, and really realized that it's not one size fits all that. What I do with my son is different than what I do with my daughter because they have different nervous systems. When he's having a hard time, if I touch him or I try to talk to him, even if I'm validating his experience, he's like, for the love of everything only, will you be quiet and go away and give me space, but also be kind, Close, but, like, not too close. Definitely don't touch me. And my daughter's like, oh, my God, tell me all about it. Yes, validate my whole experience. Also, can I be on your body the whole time? And now that I know how their nervous systems work, it helps me understand what is going to be helpful for them in the moment and outside the moment and for myself and my husband. So there's a QR code in there for folks. I love when people are taking this question and there when they pop into our DMs and they're like, oh, my God, my kid is high sensory seeker. Or they're sensory sensitive. Like, help me understand how this is coming up at school or in spaces. We have tons of resources for you, so come share, connect, keep the conversation going.

Amazing. Thank you, Alyssa. I'll put all the links in the show notes and people can go and grab it. I'm so grateful that we've had this time together.

Thanks for having me. You're the bomb.

Sat.