How Couples Get Stuck in the Same Cycle

Toyota knows your day doesn't slow down, so your vehicle shouldn't either. From the efficient Corolla and always-ready Camry to the adventurous RAV4 and spacious Grand Highlander. Plus, many models are available with all-wheel drive. Toyota builds a lineup that shows up for every kind of driver. And right now, great financing and lease options are available to qualified customers, making it a perfect time to find the one that fits you. Find a great deal today at buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places. Morning decisions. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel, maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 5-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY Can't or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install? We have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Right now, get up to 45% off sitewide, plus get a free professional measure at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply. Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy. Your guide to creating relationships that feel good. Greg, one of the reasons why I wanted us to sit together for this episode is because we have our own cycle that we get stuck in. And for sure, and you have heard me for years now talk about emotionally focused couples therapy, talk about cycles. And also, we're even getting better at our own cycle.

And so better, but not great.

Like, well, I don't think that's fair. No, no, I think—

here we go.

I think we are doing so much better.

Yeah, I think so.

When I say that, it doesn't mean we don't get in our cycle. We do. And it's hard, but it doesn't feel as intense as it once did before. And I think that's what I mean.

That's fair.

And I think you and I have both shifted through it, but I just really wanted to have this conversation about what does it look like for us?

Sure. I'm an open book.

So where does our cycle start for you? What ignites it?

It's the thing that I don't do, probably. So I lean into avoidance, so I'll avoid bringing up something that's hard or avoid asking for, frankly, things I wanna do sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

So then it just— I avoid, fester, get angry. Not angry, but yeah, you sometimes get short. Yeah. That's how you describe it.

Yeah. It, it, like, it feels short to me. And so then in those moments, I'm on edge and I feel you pulling away from me. And that, like, that's the thing that just stirs up so much of my stuff of like, do I matter? Am I important? What am I even doing here? Like, not like more of the—

No, I know what you mean.

You know? And it's really tough because I think for so many people, like, this is where I start with couples when I'm working with them is it's the If I were a fly on the wall, what would I see you doing? Or what would I see you starting to think? And it, it could really be anything. And the other thing too, I think, is when our, one of the places our cycle starts is when you see me annoyed or irritated.

Yeah. Yeah. Or I kind of like check in like too much.

Like it's, you'll kind of like start dancing around.

Yeah.

Tiptoeing.

Yeah.

Which drives me bananas. Like I, that's, that's not what I want in those moments.

Yeah, I know. And I think that's the hard thing for us. It's like, that's not what you want. But as someone who leans avoidance, I'm going to be like, oh, she's, she's doing her thing. I'm just going to give her space. It's really counterintuitive, I think.

One of the things I'm thinking about as we're sharing this is these are the visible things that you can name, but so much of this work is about actually understanding what's happening inside your body in those moments. This is a body experience.

Weird. I mean, that's really interesting because for me, maybe it's the avoider. It's all in the brain.

Hmm. Well, and I think that is this element though with someone who is more avoidant, not everybody, but many, is that they wanna disconnect between their body. 'Cause your body is filled with messages, but if you're not used to feeling and understanding and making sense of, that's really overwhelming. So you as an avoid— more avoidant person, you are used to shutting it down 'cause that maintains connection to others. Right? Whereas for me, leaning more, I don't know, I have this kind of back and forth of where I lean towards. It's like, I think at one point I lean more anxious and then another point I lean more avoidant. And we know attachment styles can change, but in more of that anxious pursuit that I can get into, which is like, hello, are you there? Like, pay attention to me. I want to try to connect with you. That for me in my body is the, when I feel you pull away, I go like catastrophic. My nervous system can start to go into that fight or flight, and it's the pursuit. I actually described one of our cycles in my first book, I Didn't Sign Up for This. It was one of our like really big fights that we had after our son was born, actually, I think, because I remember taking the, the baby monitor downstairs with me and like, then you didn't do anything. You were in your shutdown mode.

Totally. I can imagine.

And then you followed me. Trying to repair, and I'm not in that position at all to try to repair. Right.

So because I was really uncomfortable with letting you just be upset.

How's that going today?

Some— sometimes better.

Yeah, I think so.

It is for sure.

Well, so what is that?

Because that's part of the cycle, right?

So tell me more about that. I just want to understand it more.

Which part?

You're upset or you're uncomfortable with me being upset?

Well, I think it's the— it's the avoidant piece. It's like you want to keep the peace. You want things to be okay. You don't want to sit in that gray space between fight and repair, even though that, like, I know now intuitively, like, that, that time horizon's important to give your partner some space, but it was too uncomfortable for me. So in a way, I was almost so selfish, I wouldn't afford it to you. And I think, I think you've said it before, focused. I think you've said it before, either on a podcast or something, they were avoidance is actually a form of control. And it's not like a malicious control. It's an uncomfortable thing. Like, I just want to make it go away. I want to make it better. So I would like pursue in a weird way, pursue the repair quicker than just letting it work it out.

You would pursue some kind of false fix.

Okay, sure.

So it wasn't really what I was needing. And that, that I think is such an interesting piece, but the connection between my experience and then being able to name what I need. Is so hard. Even as a therapist, I can do this in front of couples hours after hours. Like, you know, you know that I'm doing couples intensives now, so I can sit with a couple in their cycle for 6 hours.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, like, I, I can do that. But then you ask me to go inside myself and then to have to name the thing that I need. I hate doing it because it's vulnerable, right? And that, that is also what ignites the fire for us in our cycle. Because if I can't tell you what I need, you're just not gonna know. And I think with the avoidance that you do, what it does though is it creates this like distance between us, and I sense that.

But it makes you frustrated or angry?

Oh, it makes me so angry.

Is that a confession, Dr. Tracy Dalgleish?

But, but it's the It's the primal panic. So really great research from Ed Tronick. I think I've talked to you about this before. This is the still face experiment, is that when a caregiver is interacting with their baby and then suddenly their face goes still, you see the baby go into a protest. It's primal panic. And we see that in adult romantic relationships, which is why shutting down is so hurtful and it's, it's so painful in a relationship.

As I shut down.

Don't shut down.

So maybe, maybe slow down a little bit for us. So you're kind of naming all this stuff. So like, what, what is our cycle? Like, name it so people can understand.

Our cycle can easily go into more of the blame-defend, followed by the blame-withdraw, followed by both of us shutting down. So Dr. Sue Johnson, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, would talk about 3 common cycles. There's lots of different iterations that we could talk about this over-functioning, under-functioning. But the 3 cycles we see in the research are blame-blame. So you're both blaming. It's like passing the hot potato. And that one is really when you're both just trying to be heard and seen. You can't get out of that. Like, I'm just going to lob this at you. I'm throwing everything at you.

I would imagine that manifests itself or presents itself very loud and Like when you see that couple in like a public fight or something, or maybe you're at a friend's or something, they're like, and it gets sharp quick.

One of the earlier books from the Gottmans covered different cycles that they noticed in couples as well. So remember, lots of different frameworks and it depends on what framework you work in. But they talked about the volatile couple and the volatile couple is the one that they just throw everything in. It's like we don't stay silent, we don't hold anything in. We're just like throwing it all in. It's like, I imagine like throwing gasoline on a fire. The second most common cycle is the pursue-defend or pursue-withdraw.

Yeah.

One partner is pursuing for connection. The other one is protecting themselves.

That sounds like us.

That is very us. Yes. And then the third cycle is the freeze and flee, or where both partners shut down. And that's really filled with a lot of anxiety and fear. And they're the couples— they're often the ones where you meet. Where they'll say, oh, we never fight.

Oh, interesting.

Because of course we know fighting is quite normal and adaptive, and that's how you get to closer connection. But these are couples who probably learned it wasn't safe to— both of them learned not safe to vocalize their needs and feelings. And so together they found each other and they're trying to work through that. The other way that couples end up being—

it's like that couple we saw at the keg eating dinner, and they're in their 60s and they didn't say a word to each other.

I mean, they, they might have needed hearing aids. It was so loud that night.

Fair enough.

Like, I don't even—

if you're a fly on the wall, you'd be like, well, that's— they're in their cycle.

Maybe.

Yeah, maybe. Sorry, I digress.

I know, I, I remember that, that dinner clearly. The other thing too that I think is really important to recognize around the cycle is when the pursuer actually stops pursuing, and that's when that person— it's often she— she becomes burnt out. And she withdraws.

And so that's the burnt-out pursuer, I think.

The burnt-out pursuer. And oftentimes when this initially happens, the more the initial withdrawn person has a sigh of relief, like, oh, okay, we're good, she stopped, she's leaving me alone, she stopped, she's leaving me alone, we must be hitting a good patch, all right, great. But they haven't seen that she has stopped pursuing. And that is a really— that's not impossible. I have had several couples where we've come back We've shifted the dynamics. They have gone on to have great relationships, but that is the cycle that I often say is a flag.

Is that a more common flag now? I don't wanna be reductive, but like women are finding their voice and power in marriages that they maybe didn't have a generation ago.

Absolutely.

And they're just like, fucking, I'm, I'm done.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm burnt out.

And, and there's, there's also what sometimes happens is when men then come and say, and I remember, I mean, I get these DMs regularly.

Yeah, I know where you, I know where you're going with this.

Where he says, I didn't see it coming.

Yeah.

And it's—

or my wife wants to leave me, what do I do? It's like the 11th hour, right?

Where were you in all the other moments? So, and I think that's why too. So one of the important things that I believe about cycles is that you and I are co-creating the cycle, that we then go into positions that are old roles that our nervous system is used to playing, and that predates both of us. And then, and I very much believe this too, is that we've found each other to work through that old stuff. And it's that willingness of, am I going to first be curious about myself? You know, this is the really interesting piece is when I work with couples, I'm doing a lot of the self stuff in there. Because if you can't go—

with them, you mean?

Yes. As just that first stage with people, if you can't go inside yourself first, we're going to stay stuck.

It's funny you say that because I often have that reaction to some of the content you make, I kind of worry that people are gonna push back because, and it's exactly, now that I hear you say it, I know this is why you do it. Because that first step is asking them to go in yourself. And I don't wanna speak for other people, but I think sometimes they think what you're saying is like, well, you have to do it. But Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, I'm not the problem. And you're kind of saying that to them, you have to start there. But they perceive that as like, Why do I have to do it?

Which is the number one thing that for anyone listening today, I would hope they could get is it's not you or your partner that is the problem. It's the cycle.

Yeah.

It's what you get into together. And I think that is so important. And I think the other thing too is it's so easy for us to get stuck in the content. So when I'm working with somebody, I'm always looking for two pieces. What are they arguing about? But also, how are they arguing?

I would imagine the how is more important.

It is absolutely more important. And that's just, that's exactly what you and I started with, which is like our cycle. Oh, I don't want to forget this. I'm going to say this out loud, but I want to come back to like how we like flip the switch in our cycle recently. So that's really what I wanted to share. Um, but it's tricky, right? Because a lot of times we come and we want to do this work or we want to have a conversation together and it's like, okay, let's solve this problem. Let's get through this issue. And we can't do that if we can't recognize the steps we take in the cycle. You know, just the other night, actually, a good example was when I had shared something with you and you said, hey, I'm overwhelmed. That was you changing the steps in our cycle because it let me know. And I had said to you, I'm like, oh, thank you for letting me know. That's really helpful for me. I'll give you some space and we'll come back to this later. That's a change. That, that's talking about the how.

Okay, that makes sense.

Right? So then the what is the problem-solving piece, the kids, the sex, the finances, the in-laws, the parenting, the content, the content. Right. But then there's another layer that we also have to do, which is how do we actually then talk about— we don't need to get stuck here, but we actually need to talk about what are the unmet needs and longings in our relationship, because that's often what drives the cycle. This podcast is sponsored by Quince. At the end of the day, getting into bed is kind of our moment. It's where things finally slow down, where we actually have a minute to reconnect or finish a sentence or even just be quiet together. And as a psychologist, I know how our environment ends up shaping how we feel, how it can either help us settle or it can keep us feeling like we're on edge. So I'm always thinking about how to create a space that actually supports that sense of calm and connection. And that's why this spring, I've been doing a little bedroom reset. A few months ago, I switched all of our bedding over to Quint's Bedding, and the quality has honestly been so good. The sheets, the pair we have, there's no pilling, there's barely any wrinkles, and they've been perfect for my kiddo who is a hot sleeper. And we also added one of their quilts to our bedroom, and it just pulls everything together. It's one of those luxury pieces, but it's standing the test of time. My kids are climbing on it, my dog has taken up residency on it, but it still looks so good. And there's something about getting into a bed that feels really good at the end of the day. It just changes the whole tone of that moment. Quince makes it really easy to upgrade your space, whether you love linen, organic cotton, or those small touches like silk pillowcases. And it feels like luxury bedding but doesn't have the luxury price tag because they work directly with their manufacturers. So if you're doing a bit of a spring reset, this is a great place to start, and honestly, one that you will feel every single night. I love Quince bedding, and I know you're going to love it as well. Upgrade your bedding Quince, go to quince.com/tracy. You'll get free shipping and 365-day returns. That's quince.com/tracy for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/tracy. I want to highlight something really important here, which is that we're not here to blame people. But instead it's to, and we already talked about this piece, it's your nervous systems. Your nervous system is responding to each other. It's reacting. And it's such an automatic old pathway for people. I think I had said this to you about siblings the other day when the kids were outside and they're kind of nattering at each other. And I was like, this is why sibling dynamics are so complicated because you have years of these moments like this. We as individuals have years of those moments interacting with our parents, our siblings, coaches, teachers, friends. We're building our nervous system for that. And that's why—

when you're not developed. Yeah. Interesting.

Right. And that's why it takes a while to change, but we're not blaming anybody. And I wanted to also say this one really important piece, because I think so many people say we want to work on communication, we want to improve our communication. But I think one of the pieces I've really come to realize is that you're actually not bad at communicating. You know how to do it. You do it at work. I bet people who are listening do it in front of hundreds of people all the time. It's that your body goes into survival mode the moment you're in front of the person who matters the most to you.

Why does that happen?

Because it's your caregiver. It's the attachment system. It's about threat and safety of connection. You're not going to experience that if someone doesn't hold the door for you while you're walking through the mall one day. Just before we wrap up, I wanted to go back and to share that piece about how our cycle changed.

It sounds like I did something good and I don't know what it was.

No, you do.

No, I don't.

No. Okay. So this was one of those moments where I was having hard feelings about something and your go-to mode tends to be to get defensive or—

Oh, there's that part. To deflect, right? Yeah. We didn't talk about the defensive part. Where does that fit into the cycle?

Well, I'll map it out. I go to you with something, you hear it as an attack, you hear it as, oh shit, I'm doing another thing wrong, so I better protect myself. And no matter how I frame it, your body goes into self-protection and that is defensiveness or, and then shutting down. And the moment you go into that, I feel you disconnect from me. And this is actually, you know, I'm being reminded of one of my favorite episodes that we did, like last year, and then you go into self-protect mode. I feel you further disconnect from me, and that's threatening to my nervous system. And so I go again, and I'm going to make the point again. And it's like I lawyer up. Well, let me give you the 10 examples of why I feel this way.

And your memory is so good. It's like boom, boom, boom. I'm like, yes, Your Honor.

Fuck. Well, yeah, but you know, when you're not seen, you are going to lawyer up. But you instead said, come here, and you just gave me a hug and you helped me. And you didn't say anything along the lines of trying to fix it. There was no solution. There was no defending yourself. I think you might have even just said, I know that this is hard for you. It was so easy.

Is that why I'm not remembering? I finally did it and I can't remember. But I can remember all the negative things, like the problem solving, the defensiveness, and the avoidance. Isn't that interesting?

Well, I mean, right there is the classic example of the negative sticks to us. Yeah, like Velcro, and the positive slides off like Teflon. Which is why in regular moments— this is not in conflict— Gottman's talk about it's the 20 to 1. For one negative statement, you need to be saying 20 positive.

Is that what it is? 20?

20 to 1 in conflict. In conflict. So this is in their recent book. In conflict, it's 5 to 1.

Oh, okay.

So if I'm saying one negative thing, I have to follow that by 5 positives because the negative just sticks to you. And that also is relevant to when you're actually trying to make change as a couple. It's really hard because you have to like keep feeling and finding those positive moments that when you've been having months, years of conflict, it's like you are going through the mud. I always say that to couples when I work with them. I'm like, hey, listen, you're going to feel good after today's session, but then we're going to get to session 5 and you're going to want to stop. Because you, you will feel like we are going through the mud. Doesn't mean it's not working. It means we're doing the hard stuff. That's hard.

Yeah. And it's not linear, is it?

So when I think about that other moment where you gave me the hug, Remember our cycle? There's no one to blame about who starts it, who ends it. If I could go back and rewrite it, if I wanted to add the next level of work onto that, because it's not for me to just expect you to know everything I need, right? Because if I expect you to just know, you'll fail. We will both fail. But instead, if I could have said, I need a hug, can you just hold me close? And that too is a really powerful way just to step out of what your brain is yelling at you. Your body being in fight and flight is closeness that we need. So what would be your one thing that you would want people listening to hold in mind this week?

Well, there was this kind of like analogy or like symbolism that you gave or told me a while ago, which was like, and I think it's not just the cycle, but it's really against problems. It's like, it's you and your partner shoulder to shoulder with the cycle in front of you, which kind of illustrates that it's the cycle that's the problem. It's not your partner, because when we're face to face, that's the conflict, right? But this kind of like flips that script and kind of pushes this cycle out in front of you. And so if like you and your partner on the same team and realizing that's our cycle, that's the problem, what are some of these steps that we need to do to get out of it. I mean, we just talked about one small example that I did, but Dr. Tracy, give us two other quick things people can do to get out of their cycle because their cycle might be different than ours.

Absolutely. So taking the pause is a very important thing. So anybody being able to name, we're getting overwhelmed or we're off track or we're doing the thing. Yeah, I even say to my couples, you know, use me. Say we're doing the thing that Dr. Tracy told us about. Oh, that's a good idea, because it externalizes it from the you against me. Okay, number one. But then the other thing that you can do, look at your partner. Just look at them. Yeah, we spend so much time not looking at each other anymore.

I know.

And that, that right there is a threat response. But when you can look at your partner, I think the research is 30 seconds. Yes, it's 30 seconds to eye gaze. It releases oxytocin, which is the cuddle hormone, which is the remembering why you chose that. I mean, you don't look at them and think like, you know, you left your socks on the floor again and like gonna—

but even if you do, it just like, it totally lowers the defensiveness.

Yeah. So those are, you know, look at your partner, but then also call that timeout. And you, you have to then also recognize, so the person who shuts down, and I think this is so important, When, when you shut down and it's something that we've had to work through as well, is you shut down and then you don't come back to it.

And that is like the corporate we. Well said.

The corporate.

Jesus. It's okay. When I shut down, it's, this is a pain point for so many people.

And I'll say it specifically. I'm just going to be really bold and say this. It's not for everybody, but for many women, their partners shut down. And don't come back.

And that's not the shutdown, it's the not coming back piece, right?

So you're allowed to have time and space for you. It's the how you do it and then the follow-up, because the follow-up is part of repairing and coming back together. I'm just thinking about our listeners. If you are looking for more support around your cycle specifically, this is actually something that I map out in my group coaching calls inside Be Connected, which is my relationship program. It's your on-demand support. We have so many great resources inside Be Connected for you so that you can start changing this. I mean, I think of even the attachment styles that I cover in there and walking through hard conversations. I have step-by-step for you to do that. That's all inside there to help you keep doing this work and taking the next steps. So I'll put the link in the show notes for you. All right. Thanks for hanging out with me.

Yeah. Thanks for letting me show my cycle to the world.

I appreciate your vulnerability. I know it's hard to talk about this stuff.

Uh, it's really not. It's not that big a deal. No.

Okay. I appreciate that.

No, I mean, I think that's probably a bit of age and maturity, but I, I really mean it too. Like, if you just, it's just a pattern. Like, if you just look at it for what it is, it doesn't have to take over.

Yeah. Yeah. I get that. All right. If anything landed for you today, I would love for you to share this episode with someone you care about. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll get notified when when the next episode is available. Okay, see you next time. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental healthcare provider. See you.