How to Talk About Hard Things Without Shame Taking Over

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I break down world history in a simple, approachable way for busy people who want real context, not just sound bites. If you want to start understanding how world history affects current events, listen to Wiser World wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries in laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. I want to start with something I noticed in my practice years ago, and it completely changed how I do therapy. Most couples who come to me say something along the lines of this we don't communicate well. We need to learn how to talk to each other. And they're not wrong. They but here's what I've found, and this might sound counterintuitive. Learning how to communicate better doesn't actually solve the problem. So let me paint a picture of what I mean. You and your partner need to talk about something hard. Maybe it's about your sex life. Maybe it's about one of you feeling emotionally distant. Maybe it's about something one of you did that hurt the other person. You know, it needs to happen. You've been avoiding it, but finally you decide, okay, we're going to do this. We are going to have the hard conversation. So you sit down. You've maybe even done some prep. You wrote out all the scripts that you want to use. You've read about communication, and you remember what your therapist said about using I statements. You are trying to do it right. You start the conversation and then it falls apart. Maybe your partner gets defensive, maybe you do. Maybe one of you shuts down. Maybe it turns into the same old argument about something totally different. Old stuff, unrelated stuff, anything but the actual issue you sat down to talk about. And here's the thing. This happens not because you don't know how to communicate. And it's not because you didn't try hard enough or use the right words. It's because shame got in the room with you. And shame doesn't negotiate. Shame doesn't respond to better communication skills. Shame has only one job, to protect you, and it will derail any, any conversation to do that. So here's what I'm talking about in today's episode. Understanding what shame does to hard conversations. Recognizing when it's happening, and most importantly, knowing what to actually do about it. Because once you understand shame, you can finally stop having the same hard conversation over and over. You can actually solve something when you can move through the shame. Now, before we go forward, if you're looking for step by step instructions on how to have these hard conversations, grab my scripts for hard conversations. You will be ready to have your next difficult convo. If your partner is critical, defensive, or doesn't like to return to these types of conversations. I've got the link for you in the show notes. Go ahead and check that out. Let me start with the basics, because most people confuse shame with guilt. And that confusion is part of why hard conversations end up staying hard. Guilt is about what you did. You. Guilt says, I made a mistake, I hurt my partner. I should apologize and do better. Guilt is actually helpful in relationships because it moves you toward the other person. It motivates repair. Think of it like this. I did a behavior that I don't like, and now I can change it. Shame is about who you are. Shame says, I'm the problem. I'm inadequate, I'm unlovable and broken. And shame doesn't move you toward your partner for closeness and connection. It moves you away from them through defensiveness, shutting down, or attacking back. I think of shame like breaking the bridge that connects you to your partner on the other side and instead of being able to see the light, what we end up seeing is darkness. Like keeping the curtains closed in a dark room, in a self fulfilling loop that says, I'm defective. Don't let others see this. I'm inadequate. And here's why this matters for hard conversations. Specifically, when you sit down to have a hard conversation, you're already vulnerable. You're risking something. You might be bringing up something your partner did that hurt you, or you might be admitting something about yourself that's scary to say out loud. If guilt is there, that's manageable. Guilt is like, okay, I can hear this, I can own this. Let's figure a way out through this. But if shame is there, if somewhere deep down you believe I'm not good enough or my needs don't matter, or if they really knew me deep down inside, they'd leave, then that hard conversation becomes a threat to your survival. In these moments, your nervous system hears the start of the conversation and immediately thinks, this is automatic. This is dangerous. You're going to find out who I really am. And at that point, your brain stops being interested in solving the problem, interested in one thing only, and that is protecting you. Here's a little bit of neuroscience piece that helps to support what's happening in this moment. So when shame activates your prefrontal cortex, that's the front of your brain. It's the part that listens and reasons and empathizes with others. It completely goes offline. And your amygdala, that's your threat detection system, that's in the back of your brain where all of the emotions start, that takes over. You literally cannot problem solve from that state. It's not choice, it's neurobiology. It's like trying to have a budget meeting while your house is on fire. You're not choosing to be defensive or to shut down. Your nervous system is choosing for you. And this is the critical piece for hard conversations. You cannot think your way out of a nervous system state. You can know all the communication techniques in the world. You can have the most logical argument prepared. But if shame activates your nervous system, none of that matters. You won't be able to access it. You're just going to be in survival mode. And survival mode says, there's a threat, there's a bear, and I need to move away from it. That's why when couples do couples therapy, they learn everything they're supposed to, and then they go home and they keep having the same fight anyways. It's not because the skills don't work. And it's not because therapy is not working. It's because shame is blocking access to those skills. And that's what we're going to change in this episode. I want you to be able to identify your shame and to do something different with it. And if your partner happens to be the one that quickly goes into shame spiral, even more reason for us to address it so that you can also see it and you can work as a team to navigate it. So here's the thing about shame. It's invisible. Your partner isn't able to say, wow, I'm feeling really ashamed right now. Instead, shame shows up as specific patterns that completely derail a hard conversation. These are patterns of continued to see in session. And I help people to identify them and to label that shame deeper underneath it. Let's go through some of those patterns so that you can start to see them. So the first pattern is of course, defensiveness. You bring something up, maybe you're heard about something, maybe you need something to change. And instead of your partner hearing your actual request, they defend against it. Defensiveness sounds like this. That's not what I meant. You, you're being too sensitive. You never appreciate the things I do do. Why are you always focusing on what's wrong if you just listen to my side? What's happening here is your partner heard your words, but their nervous system interpreted them as an attack on their self worth. So now they're not trying to understand you, they're trying to prove you wrong. Because if they can prove you wrong, maybe they're not inadequate. Maybe they're not the problem. The hard conversation you want to have about your needs, your feelings, the thing that' really hurting you. That conversation is gone. And now you're in a debate about whether they're a good person or not. The second pattern is shutting down. This is a quieter one. Your partner just disappears emotionally, but also maybe physically. In sessions, I would see clients start to shake their leg, cross their arms, and then look up to the ceiling. And it's not that your partner is trying to say to you, you don't matter. I don't care about what you're saying. It's in that moment that their brains have gone offline into self protection mode and shutting down is go to but it's also very triggering for the other person. So what does shutting down look like? It might sound like this. They might say, I don't want to talk about this. Or they say it's fine. There might be long silences or leaving the room. Or they say, there's no point in talking to you about this. And what's happening is that shame made them feel unsafe. And your nervous system right there doesn't think it can win. Defensiveness didn't work, so they're going to shut down. Instead. It thinks, if I make myself small enough, disappear enough, maybe the threat will go away. And this is devastating because you've just made yourself vulnerable. You've tried to bring up the hard thing, and your partner isn't even there anymore. You are talking to a wall, and that ends up leaving people feeling so lonely. Shutting down is one of the most painful patterns that I see. And there is one small thing that you could do in that moment to start changing it, which I'm jumping ahead. But I needed to put this here, which is exact saying to your partner, I feel myself shutting down. I feel myself going into that shutdown space, and I don't want to go there and just labeling that. It is so powerful. Okay. The third pattern is the counterattack. This is more aggressive than defensiveness because it's then kind of taking this and then throwing it back on you. I often describe it to couples as like passing the hot potato, but then you're kind of like making it hotter and making them hold it. It can sound like, well, what about when you. Or bringing up an old argument from years ago that's not even related to this issue in front of you. It might sound like, at least I'm not the one who. Or they're turning it around to focus on your failures instead of what you wanted to talk about. What's happening is that shame made them feel attacked. And their go to protection mode to feel less bad is by making you the problem. And if they can prove that you're the problem, then they're not inadequate. Many people who are in relationships who identify their partner as a narcissist will experience the counter attack. And that's because we know that people with higher levels of narcissism actually experience this deeper core sense of shame. And that narcissism, that grandiosity, is the protective mechanism. And so if they feel you coming at them, it's a hairpin trigger, and they immediately push it back on you. Because if they let that information in, they will actually fall into to a narcissism depression, which is a very low spot for them. It doesn't feel good. They feel there's no sense of living. And that is this kind of idea of like falling off a pedestal, of being this grandiose, almighty person that's not bad at all to then being this like bottom of the ground worthless individual. So that counter attack is really that coping mechanism for someone who has narcissistic tendencies. I wanted to add that here because I know so many people do experience the counterattack. But I also want to remind you that if your partner does this counterattack thing, that doesn't mean they're a narcissist. Okay? I really want to be careful with how we use that word. The fourth pattern is over functioning or perfectionism. So this ends up looking productive. So people often don't recognize it as shame, but it is. So here's what it sounds like. They might be over explaining something and they think, well, here's why I did that and if you could just understand why I did. There's all these really good reasons. It might be trying to be perfect so they can't be criticized. And that's exhausting because it's not possible to be perfect in a relationship. And so if they're giving feedback about something that they did wrong, that's kind of putting this crack in the shell. And it's this desire to then want to continue to be perfect. There might also be this pattern of constantly doing. And someone could say, like, well, look at all I'm doing for you. And what's happening here is this person is trying to prove their worth through effort or perfection. And they think, if I do enough, then I am enough. And it's a protection strategy that looks like engagement, but it's actually a way of forming a wall between you and the other person. I want to talk about this last one. So the fifth pattern is self flagellation. This is a self loathing cycle. And the way I describe this in therapy is it's almost like watching the person who feels shame, the person who's receiving feedback, it's almost like watching them roll out of the relationship and so they're actually no longer in the room with you. And it's. It sounds like this, it sounds like them taking on all of their responsibility. They'll say something like, you're right, it's all my fault, I'm the problem. They'll go into this place of saying, I'm not good enough. Why are you even with me? Or they keep over apologizing, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll do better next time. I don't even know why you're choosing me. And when they roll into that shame, what that does for you is it ends up triggering you to then have to soothe them in that moment to then tell them, oh, no. Okay, sweetie, hang on. You are a good person. I love you. No, that's not what I'm saying. But as you say that, it completely derails you and loses the focus on your needs and feelings. And I remember working with this couple and every time she would come to him, she did all the right communication strategies and every time his response would be like, I don't even know why you're with me. Everything is my fault and I'm such a bad partner. And it was like a block in any of the work, any of the progress that we were trying to make. So this is a big one to look out for. And it's that conversation around being able to say to your partner, I'm not saying you're a bad partner and I have needs that we need to talk about. Here's what all of these have in common. In each case, the person's nervous system has detected the threat. It says, I'm not enough. They're going to confirm it and I need to protect myself. And so they do, they protect themselves. But in doing that, they made the hard conversation impossible and they completely do not solve any of their problems. So this is important, and I want to emphasize this piece. This isn't your partner being difficult. This isn't them not caring about you or your relationship. But instead it's their nervous system doing the job it was built to do, which is to protect them from what feels like a threat to their sense of self and to their self worth. So when you're in that moment, when you're trying to bring something hard up or your partner gets defensive or shuts down, the worst thing you can do is to get more frustrated with them that they're not engaging with you. Because the truth is this, they can't engage, not until their nervous system feels safe again. And this is where this work is so important. Because if you hear their defensiveness, their criticism, their self flagellation as this kind of attack back at you, and you continue to up the ante, you are only going to spiral and make this worse. Because shame then continues to say, I have to keep protecting myself. I think this is also a really hard experience to sit in. Because when you don't feel seen and connected, it is normal then for your nervous system to respond to that threat, which is, oh, yeah, well, I'm going to get angrier because I have to be seen and that's how I feel safe. And you can start to see here that this is how Your negative cycle starts to unfold. If you haven't yet, pause here. Click the link in the show notes. I have a free quiz for you to take. It's all about your relationship pattern that is keeping you stuck. Because once you and your partner can label that, it can start to completely change how your conversations go. I have had thousands of people take this quiz and really start to identify the pattern that is keeping them stuck. So I've got the link, the show notes for you. I want to spend a few minutes talking about where this actually comes from, because this is important for us to understand. Shame that shows up in your hard conversations today isn't usually about the current relationship. It's rooted in something much older. So it's not about your relationship here. But shame about not being enough gets wired in families earlier relationships where certain things happen or certain things didn't happen. Let's talk about a few of them here. One might be having a highly critical parent or one with really high expectations. So if you couldn't meet those expectations, because of course you couldn't, you were a kid. The message you got was clear, you're not good enough. It's not the you made a mistake and that's okay. But instead the message was you fundamentally are not good enough. And now as an adult, when your partner brings up something that's hard or something that you need to change, your nervous system doesn't hear, I need your help with this. It hears that old message of you're failing and you're not enough. Maybe your parent withdrew when they were disappointed, and this one is subtle but incredibly powerful. A parent didn't yell, but they went quiet and they created distance. Disappointing them or doing something that they didn't like, which all kids do, it's normal. So please hear me when I say this, and please tell your partner this. It's not our job as kids to please our parents. And even as adults, it's still not our job to please our parents. But if you disappointed them as a child, which all kids do, it meant you lost their warmth and their attention. You lost their connection. And that as a child is dangerous because everything we do that's a threat to our nervous system when we lose that connection. Everything we do as a kid is rooted in maintaining connection with our caregivers. So for these people, they learned when I fail, people I love leave. When I'm not perfect, I lose connection and warmth and attention. And if you have children right now and you look over at them and you think of that, that is painful. We also see in research studies that withdrawal of love and affection, emotional neglect to children, is more damaging than physical harm. Because remember this, any attention is better than no attention. And that is incredibly painful research. Okay, today then, in these hard conversations, if your parent withdrew when they are upset about something, when your partner brings something up, that's when your body goes, this is it. This is when they leave me. This is when I lose the one I love. So they defend, they shut down, they do anything except be vulnerable and open to what's being said in that moment. Because here's the real truth. Vulnerability feels like the worst thing you could possibly do in that moment. For people who grew up in homes where your family didn't allow emotions, you are also going to be prone to shame. Because here's the thing. Emotions are normal. Emotions are pieces of information. Emotions tell us what we need, and we all have them. We all have a full range of emotions. But there are families where emotions weren't safe. You could be productive, you could be angry, or you could be busy. But if you were scared or sad or you needed something, that's weakness and that's shameful. So you learned this very important message. Needing things, having emotions. Vulnerability is shameful. Vulnerability is dangerous. Showing your real self means abandonment and rejection. And now when your partner needs to have a hard conversation with you, when they're trying to express something vulnerable to you, your nervous system can't tolerate that because they're inviting you into that vulnerability. And vulnerability feels like the most dangerous place in the world. Here's another one that people might have experienced in early childhood. Maybe they had a sibling who was the good one. In families with comparison, the message is crystal clear. One sibling is enough, and it's not you. So there's something fundamentally wrong with you. Here's an example, because it gets concrete fast. So I had a client, we'll call him David, whose father was emotionally distant and only engaged. When David achieved something perfect. Grades great, made the team amazing. He was cheering him on. But a mistake. Radio silence, withdrawal, cold absence, nothing. Guess what David learned. He learned, my worth is conditional on my performance. And if I fail, I'm not lovable. And that is a painful lesson to learn as a kid. So now, fast forward. David is married, and his wife brings up that she's feeling emotionally disconnected. She says, I miss you. I feel like you're always working and on your phone, and I need you to be present with me. This is a legitimate request. This is what healthy intimacy looks like. But he doesn't hear It. Instead, he hears, you're failing. You're not being the perfect husband. You're not enough, and I'm going to leave. So the pattern that I'm working on with David is his defensiveness. Because initially he started to do the I provide for us. I work hard. You're never satisfied. But now, over time, he's starting to slip into that self flagellation of, okay, well, I guess I'm not enough and I'm not a good husband and you have this issue, so I'm just not good enough. And then he throws himself into work. He says, I'll just try harder. I'll do more, I'll achieve more. And he keeps trying to prove his worth. All the while, his partner is sitting there with her arms open, saying, just come. Come and be with me. Come and connect with me. But he can't, because he's in a dark hole and his nervous system is on fire. And it's saying, you're right. You should just leave me. And all she wants is connection. The hard conversation David's wife keeps wanting to have about intimacy and connection never ends up happening because David's shame keeps hijacking it. And here's the critical piece. David isn't choosing to be defensive. He's not choosing to avoid the conversation. His nervous system learned in childhood that intimacy and need equal abandonment, and it's trying to protect him. And this is why understanding the origin of your partner's shame is so important. Because once you understand that your partner's defensiveness or shutting down isn't about you, it's about something they learned long ago, you can stop taking it personally. And right there, when you can do that, that's when you can actually help each other feel safe enough to have these hard conversations. Let me walk you through what actually happens in these spirals so we can make it concrete. And then I'm going to move into what you can start to do differently. So the first step is you decide to have the conversation. Maybe it's been weeks, maybe it's months. You get the courage. You finally say to yourself, okay, I'm doing this. So you sit down, you rehearse it, you're ready. Then you bring it up. Let's say you say something like, I've been feeling really disconnected from you. I need us to have more time together. I miss you. Your intention is clear. You want connection. You want to find a solution together. You want to be closer. Then your partner hears a threat. So your partner, the one with the shame, the one whose nervous System learned that intimacy means abandonment and inadequacy. Doesn't hear I miss you. They hear you're failing. You're not good enough. You're going to lose me. Notice here right now that you have said none of those things. You have thought none of those things. But that's exactly what his nervous system tells him. And it's because his prefrontal cortex has gone offline. The back of his brain, the emotions. He's flipped the lid. That's Dr. Dan Siegel's language. He's flipped the lid. Shame has taken over. He's no longer connected to problem solving mode. Your partner is in survival mode. In survival mode, it's kind of like this. You have this mug, and you pass your partner the mug, and. And they view it as hot. And so they drop it right away, and it spills it all over them. And so as I'm spilling water recording this, they're actually reacting to that. So they're like, ah, you spilled water all over me. How could you? That protection mode is right there. Instead of what you've just passed them being curious. I have to wipe off this water off of my hand. But you being curious and saying, oh, wow, look at this mug. You've just passed me something really important. It has nothing to do with my sense of self, but I can be curious about what you've just shared with me. And that's really interesting, because then they respond from protection. And it sounds like, I don't know what you want from me. I work all the time. Nothing is ever good enough for you. You're always complaining. Or they say, I don't want to talk about this, and they leave the room. Or, well, maybe if you made me feel welcomed when I came home. Or he or she says, I'm such a bad partner, I can never get it right. I don't even know why you're with me. And that just completely loses connection. The actual conversation you wanted to have, about missing each other, about connection, that conversation is gone. Now you're defending. Now you're hurt, angry, or shocked, and you both end up feeling like, what was that? And I need to acknowledge this because you took a risk. You were vulnerable. And instead of your partner receiving that vulnerability, receiving the mug being passed to them, they pushed back. They made it about them, or they shut down, or they attacked you back. And you know what happens in this moment? Your nervous system gets activated. You're no longer feeling safe. You're no longer interested in connection. You're interested in being understood, in being right. And protecting yourself. And both of you now are in protection mode. You can't problem solve this. You can't find the solution together. Your nervous systems are just firing back and forth. You are not going to be able to move forward. And this is what I see all the time in my therapy room. A couple comes in and I ask, what are you fighting about? And they actually can't remember because the conversation spiraled so fast into defensiveness and self protection that the original issue disappeared. And the couple that came in wanting to talk about connection is now having a fight about who said what and who's not listening. And all of these defense mechanisms just end up, up showing up. And this is where couples end up getting stuck because they think the problem is about bad communication. They think they need to communicate better and learn skills and use better words. And yes, sometimes that's part of it. But a large part of what I'm doing in therapy with people is helping their nervous systems get out of self protection mode and into connection. I need you to hear this. The hard conversation doesn't fail because you don't know how to talk. It fails because shame activated a threat response. And you can't problem solve when you're running from a bear. You just can't. And until you address the shame, until you make it safe for your partner's nervous system to settle, no amount of communication skills is going to help. And that's the spiral. This is how shame kills the hard conversation. And it's how shame leads people to feel lonely, far apart, drifted from each other and disconnected. When you want your spring break to feel like and your kids pool day to feel like and your hotel bed to feel like. Ooh. And room service to feel like. Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like. Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels? It matters where you stay. Book now@hilton.com Hilton for this day. All right, here's where it gets really important, because the shift here isn't I want to learn better communication skills. Yes, we have that. But the shift is really about creating safety so the nervous system can settle. Because once you can do this, problem solving then becomes possible. So if you take anything away from today's episode, take this one small piece. When we think there's a bear, we cannot problem solve. Our goal is to learn how to soothe each other's and our own nervous system so that we can be connected to then solve the problem. Let me break this down for you in a few steps. So the first step is we want to be able to Recognize when shame is active. You have to be able to do this. And it can come from either person. Remember, my perspective is I'm not pointing fingers at who has to go first. Whoever arrives there first is powerful, knowing that we are in this together. So someone has to say, wait, something just happened here. And if it's your partner, they can say, oh, my nervous system is activated, or my partner's nervous system is activated, or we're in self protection mode, not in problem solving mode. And I want to really say this. This is harder than it sounds because when you're in it, you don't feel like stepping out of it. It's a. It's an itch. You want to scratch it, you want to keep going because you're like, I have to protect myself. That you need to understand that if you can slow it down and say to yourself, hang on, what am I trying to protect myself against? What am I really afraid of? That can completely change what happens in this moment. So for your partner, they might be able to say, I'm afraid I'm not enough. I'm afraid they're going to leave. And for you, it might be, I'm afraid they don't care. I'm afraid I'm not going to be heard. So this first step is all about pausing. I need you to pause, slow it down, and to ask yourself, what's just kicking up right here? And sometimes that might just be about my nervous system just went offline. Naming it is so powerful. Step two, name the shame, not the blame. Ugh. Blame is such a familiar position, and we do it to protect ourselves. But that's the old pattern. And you want to name exactly what's happening inside of you. So it might sound something like this. I noticed, I just got defensive. That usually means that we're touching a nerve for me. So when you brought up feeling. Let's use David's wife's example from earlier, when you brought up feeling disconnected. I heard it as you saying, I'm not enough. And that actually really scares me right there. I'm sinking into naming my internal experience. I am pointing inward into me. This is the work. And we do this so much in couples therapy. I stop the fights, I stop the escalation in session, and I ask them, I invite them to slow it down and to go into what just happened inside of you in that moment when your partner said, I feel so far away from you, because that's the shift. Instead of getting defensive, you name the feeling of defensiveness. And that's also really vulnerable, and it's risky, but that's where connection really starts to happen. So your partner might be able to start to say, I realize I just shut down. I heard you say you miss me, and something in me went, this is it. This is when she realizes that I'm not enough and that I'm inadequate, and she gets ready to leave me. And so you're naming the shame. You're not defending against it. All right, step three, ask for what you actually need. So once you've named what's happening, you've labeled what it is, you can now ask for something different. So if you're the person that feels a lot of shame, you might say something like this, This. I need to know that even though I'm struggling with this, you still want to be with me. I need to know that I'm still safe. I want to emphasize this because I know if your partner shame hijacks a conversation, it feels like you get completely sideswiped. I know that experience. I know it working with couples. I know it in my own relationship. This doesn't have to take long, because, remember, we're soothing a nervous system. We're soothing both of your nervous systems so you can ultimately get to something different. So from your side, then what you can do is say, I need you to hear that I love you and I'm hurting, and both of those things are true, and I believe that you are enough. And, gosh, that is just so powerful here. You're asking for the thing shame says is impossible. You're asking to be seen and to still be loved, to be flawed and to still belong. Okay, let's do step four. The other person has to to shift here as well. So once someone has been vulnerable enough to name their shame, the other partner has a choice. They can either stay in that pattern and say things like, well, you shouldn't feel that way, or, well, you know, it's not my responsibility, or just get over it. But you can soften and stay curious. And you might say something like, okay, I hear you, and that must be really scary. Or you say to them, I'm not trying to attack you. I believe you are lovable. This is me coming to you, asking for help. Or maybe it sounds like, I love you, even though we're struggling with this. So once your partner has labeled shame, you always have a choice. Am I going to react to that defensiveness and be frustrated that their shame is hijacking it, or am I going to be the person to help soothe the moment? Because here you are supporting their nervous system. And they can hear you say, I'm still safe, I'm still with you. We're on the same team. So hold these few things in mind right here. This is where you use a softer tone. This is where you look them in the eye. Eye contact is so important. And wow, we are not using eye contact right now. So many of us are looking away. We look at our phones, we're distracted. Eye contact expressing to them, I don't want to be here and fight with you. Being able to say, I love you. And also saying, we're on the same team. We're in this together. That was actually one of the most powerful things that Greg had said to me once as I was starting to shame spiral in my own stuff. And he had said, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, we're in this together. I'm on your team. And that was just so powerful to hear from him. It's my hope now that as you get to step five, you can actually talk about the thing. So your nervous systems have settled. You've moved away from protection mode and into connection mode. And you can actually have the hard conversation. And not in the same way as before. Because shame, Shame is not being activated anymore. That's the important piece here. It's now that you're able to say, okay, you were feeling disconnected and you need more time together. Tell me more about that because that's your partner being connected with you. That's them. So remember what I said at the beginning of this episode, that shame breaks the bridge of connection between two people. Our job in a relationship is to constantly go back and forth on the bridge. If you've been here with me for a while, you know, I use my bridge analogy a lot. And so your job then, now that shame has no longer broken the bridge, you've rebuilt the bridge, or you took down the wall that got built up in the middle of the bridge. Whatever analogy works for you or metaphor, you now cross the bridge and you say, okay, earlier you said you're feeling disconnected and you need more time together. Tell me more. I want to hear that. And you can actually hear that because your nervous system isn't in self protection mode. It's not in defensive mode. It's in what I believe to be one of the most powerful spaces we need to build a healthy relationship, which is in listening mode and trying to understand your person. Okay, here's the practice that changes things. So the next time you notice defensiveness or shutting down, that's taking over a hard conversation. Either in you or your partner. Pause and try this. Easy for me to say in a podcast. I just need to emphasize that. So first, get curious. Instead of getting frustrated. Ask yourself, what's my partner doing with protection right now? What are they afraid of? Name the pattern. Someone has to say it out loud. It could be, I notice we're upping the ante. Or as one of my clients used to say, I noticed we're in the washing machine spinning around. Or I notice we're getting defensive and our voices are rising. Can we pause for a moment? Okay, next. Name the shame and test it out. This might be something like when I brought this up to you, I'm wondering if this triggered this, like, not enough thing that you have for you. That was really powerful for even in my own relationship, when I could say to Greg of like, whoa, hang on, what did you just hear me say? And when he could then say, I heard you say I'm not a good parent or I'm not a good partner, that right there completely shifted what was happening between us. Or if you're the person that slipped into your shame spiral, you can say, when you brought this up, I felt like you were going right into this, like, I'm not enough thing. Is that what you meant? Were you. Is that where you were wanting to go? Partners are not in this to say to you, you're not good enough. We don't land there. We land in behaviors and our own desires and wants. Okay, next step, ask for safety. Is there something that you could do? Greg has said to me before, could we try this again? And can you use a softer tone? That right there is powerful because sometimes I come into conversations and I'm heated and excited and I'm ready to go, and. And he doesn't see it that way. He doesn't experience me that way. And this is now, this negotiation and co creation of how do we do this together? Okay, last, soften. One of you has to soften. One of you has to take the risk. One of you has to say, I love you and I'm not leaving and I need your help with this. I love you. I believe in you. You are enough. And I also need you to come and be with me and stay in that. Stay in that. Because that's where trust gets rebuilt. That's where these real conversations actually become possible. Okay, I want to emphasize this. Once you can start acknowledging what your nervous system is doing, you can then shift out of shame and you can start feeling safe in the here and now. Because shame developed in Younger parts of us. And I think this is so important to recognize. You don't get there overnight. You don't just travel a new path and automatically be able to do it overnight. This takes time. It takes time to practice rewiring those conversations. One of my favorite analogies that I used in my book I didn't sign up for this is about riding a bike. So do this with me here. I want you to imagine how you get on a bike. I bet you always go to the same side. Okay. 95% of the time you go the same side and you put over one side. I did this during the early days of COVID just to challenge myself with my memories. Okay. So I had my spin bike. It was in the middle of winter and I notice I always go to the left side and I put my right side over first. My right leg goes up and over the bike. I get on easy. I don't have to think about it. That's what your body does in self protection mode. That's what Shane does. It triggers it so fast you don't have to think about it. You go down that path. Now what you're doing here is you're actually going to the right side of the bike and you're trying to then put your left foot over for the first time and wow, the first time I did it, I thought I was going to fall over on a stationary bike. On my spin bike at home, I thought I was going to fall over and I had to keep practicing over and over again because. Because that's how we learn to do things different. It's wiring and rewiring over and over again. And I want you to recognize this is shame. This is hardwired shame inside of you that blocks your relationship. And we want to work on rewiring the safety we feel in our bodies. This isn't just about communication skills. This is also about what happens inside of us, this old stuff and how we can come back to building connection today. If you're looking for step by step scripts for when your partner gets critical, defensive or doesn't want to return to the conversation, I've got you covered in my scripts. For difficult conversations, you'll walk through each scenario with step by step on how to move forward. So grab that resource. I've got it in the show notes for you and you can use it in addition to this episode to help you navigate your next hard conversation. Because remember this, this conflict is not bad. Conflict is about being able to find out what your needs are. So you and your partner can be closer and more connected. Before we finish, I want to offer something. If you're recognizing yourself in this, if shame shows up a lot in your hard conversations, if you find yourself getting defensive or shutting down when things get vulnerable, that doesn't mean you're broken. I need you to hear that. It doesn't mean there's something fundamentally wrong with you. It means your nervous system learns to protect you in a certain way. And given what you probably experienced growing up, that protection mode made sense. It helped you survive. But here's the good news. Your nervous system can learn something new. Not through willpower, not through trying harder, but through experience and moments of safety. If you have a partner who's willing to stay curious instead of defensive, who's willing to soften when things get hard, who's willing to continue to ask for connection even when you're protecting, that person is actually giving you the most beautiful gift. Because that's how your nervous system heals. Not through logic, not through rationalizations, but through being witnessed. So if you're in that space right now, if you're recognizing the shame defensiveness pattern in your hard conversations and you want to change it, here's my invitation. Be gentle with yourself. This took time to wire in and it's going to take time to rewire, but it's completely possible. And if you have a partner who wants to do this work with you, let them. Let them see you. Let them help you feel safe enough to be vulnerable. Because that's what hard conversations actually need, not better words. Emotional safety and connection. Okay, if this episode landed for you, if you're recognizing the shame defensiveness pattern in your own hard conversations, I want to hear about it. Send me a DM or email me and tell me what what's shifted for you from listening to today, what you're continuing to struggle with, and share this one with your partner to start a conversation about stepping out of that shame spiral. And if you want to go deeper with this work, if you want real coaching on how to interrupt the patterns, if you want conversation guides and scripts for the hard conversations that matter most, if you want to be in community with other people who are also doing this work, that's what my online program, Be Connected, is for. We do this together in real time with your actual conversations. But whether or not that's the next step, just know this. I'm cheering you on. And just by clicking Play today, I know your relationship matters to you and I know this work matters. Thank you for being here and thank you for doing this work. I'll see you next time. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. Better.