https://www.listennotes.com/e/48691af340fa49a79bb95b6294ede8a7

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beauty, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries in laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships.

So grab a coffee, settle in, and.

Let'S rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good.

Have you ever had that moment in a conversation where you say, are you gaslighting me? Or maybe you've left a disagreement with your partner and you thought, I'm pretty sure they're manipulating me. With the rise of these pop psychology terms, I'm noticing so much of what's happening in our relationships is around labeling and using these big terms. And as a result it's ending up hurting our partnerships. And so I really wanted to have this conversation here on the podcast so that we can step out of these labels and back into what it really means to create a secure and healthy partnership. And there was no better person to do this with than my friend and colleague, Dr. Morgan Anderson. She is a psychologist and attachment style expert and and we've also sat down together in the podcast several times before. So Morgan, thank you so much for being here with me. I know we are going to Have a fantastic conversation today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this. This is such an important topic.

I wonder if we could even just start with what we're seeing in terms of the rise of these terms and why this is actually problematic. What are some of. You know, when I sent you that DM on Instagram saying, would you have this conversation with, I'm curious what you're seeing.

I think that there is this desire to be able to label people because we. We know that we have lazy brains. So we go, okay, if I can just label this person, then I understand them, I can write them off. It makes me. I don't want to use the word lazy, but I feel like there's this laziness in our culture of I don't want to understand the nuance, I don't want to understand the gray areas. Maybe I don't want to have to show up and have tough conversations. So if instead I could just label somebody I'm dating a certain way, then I can write them off. And I mean, this, this is a whole topic. But where my brain goes is emotional distancing, the rise of avoidant attachment style and hyper independence, and people being more comfortable pulling away from intimacy instead of engaging in really tough conversations.

There's. Oh, wow, there's so much in there, Morgan. It's this. So first, that lazy brain idea in the sense of we are bombarded by so much information every single day that we want to be able to make quick judgments, quick decisions, because we're exhausted and we're being flooded with information. And you're right, there is this sense of security once you say where. If we could say, I don't like this. This is uncomfortable. You're doing X, right? It's like I'm putting you into this box. And that gives ourselves this own sense of security and certainty.

Absolutely, yes. And I think you and I obviously want to make it clear that of course there are times when do fit, you know, the criteria of, let's say, a narcissistic personality disorder. Of course there's going to be times where that may be your experience and that is based in reality. So we're. We don't want to invalidate anyone there. And at the same time, how. How do we get to this place where we can give feedback, we can share our experiences, we can share how, hey, when you did this, it made me feel this. And then giving people the able, being able to shut down and then just pulling away from the relationship and that.

Really goes to that piece around avoidance of what you said. In the sense that we're seeing this rise of hyper independence, that we want to rely only on ourselves. We don't want to have to sit in those hard conversations with other people. I'm curious what you see with the people you work with around those entering relationships and those trying to create more secure attachment styles. I know that's a lot of what.

The work you do too.

So you're noticing the increased avoidance. People kind of wanting to define themselves and to be okay, I'm okay on my own.

And I think there is research to back this up that avoidant attachment style is the fastest growing attachment style. And we could get into all kinds of reasons about why that is. I think we have pseudo connection on social media, so we sort of think that we're connected, but we're not really. Not to mention that hyper independence is really rewarded in our society. So, yeah, such a rise of avoidant attachment. And I think, you know, if we look at it gender wise, we used to say, oh, there's so many more men who are avoidantly attached, but actually now we're seeing just as many women with avoidant attachment style. Hyper independence, I think, is becoming more of a norm in our society. And, and with that, the inner belief is I'm better off alone. I'm, I'm better off not having these emotional conversations. I'm better off not even being connected to my emotional experience. Right. And I, and I think that there's a devaluing of partnership and a devaluing of relationships and being able to label people and say, oh, they're gaslighting me or oh, they were a red flag. Being able to do that is a really, really easy way for us to distance ourselves from intimacy. And it's also socially rewarded. You know, I think about like the, the friendship circles that you can find yourself in when you're dating and sharing what's going on in your experience. If you're saying, oh, well, they're, they're gaslighting you, or oh, they're, they're a red flag, it can even be rewarded in our social circles.

Whenever I sit with friends and conversations around relationships show up, I often remind people we can't label something that we're not in. And you don't know how this person sharing a story with you is contributing to that dynamic and that putting it in a box, while it sounds kind of exciting and hot and juicy, it's not. It's just this way of keeping people out. It's A way of creating more distance and separation. It's really interesting to hear that avoidance is increasing for women as well. And I want to bite on that little nugget there because you said we can go into all kinds of reasons. Do you think one of the largest reasons for this is around social media and our pseudo connection to so many people through our phones and online media?

Absolutely. You, you and I know this, that, that social media can be a wonderful tool and it's also really hurting our close relationships. People are, are thinking that they're getting their relationship needs met via social media, but they're not. It's. It's pseudo connection. You're getting those quick dopamine hits, but it's not real in depth intimacy.

It's interesting. I can even think of those days where I haven't seen Greg all day and I might send him a quick text and tell him something exciting that happened and something that I was thinking about. And then when we're together in person, there's not really, it's not that there's.

Not anything there, there's lots there.

It's more that that thrill of sharing something face to face is almost dampened. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. When, when you're sending your partner memes all day and then you're, you're like, hey, I don't know if you saw what I, what I sent you. That's really different than sharing an experience face to face with someone and being able to giggle together. Right. Like that. That's experience. And it's just so I think that we also, you know, back to the lazy brain. We love what's easy. Social media is easy. Dopamine hits. It's easy. You don't have to leave your house. You could be on the couch. Right. And you're just scrolling and you're, you're.

Getting that in my cozy pajama connection. Yes, it is this. Yeah. We talk a lot about that fast acting dopamine that we're getting when we're on our phones and not that face to face experience, not the deeper intimacy. And you already mentioned how using these labels creates this sense of distance and losing intimacy. It's the I don't have to be vulnerable with you. If you say something that I don't like, we're in this disagreement, then I can pull myself back. I don't have to be vulnerable. And vulnerability is really about not controlling the outcome. And so if we then use this term, I have complete control over the conversation. I've just stopped it in its marks, right? Like I've just stopped it in its tracks completely.

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Let's talk a little bit about why this is problematic in our relationships. What specifically happens? And I'll give this example of what happened with Greg recently when I thought I would try it out a little bit. So Greg and I have a secure bond that I can try this with. And I knew I would repair it after. So we were having a conversation and it was one of those moments where maybe he went into fixing mode or he was missing something that I was saying. And I said, you're Gaslighting me. And his face, Morgan just dropped. He was like, what? I said, you're gaslighting me. Well, you're even. You can't believe you're saying that again. He's like, I. I like, truly. He was flooded, I think is probably the best way to say it of, like, how can you, like, say that? And so it was just really interesting. So I backtracked and I repaired with him, and I said, I'm kidding. I'm just playing around with you. I wanted to see what it would look like with you if I use that term out of nowhere, knowing so much that. And we can get to that in a bit around actually defining what these pieces are. But it was so interesting to see his reaction. And I think that happens so much in our partnerships.

Absolutely. There's so much that's connected to that term. Right. And you. You use that term and then they're. In their mind, they're going to, oh, my gosh. What does this mean? I think it, to me, it's almost like a safety thing of, oh, my gosh. If somebody's going to label me this way, am I going to be rejected from the pack? Right. Like, this is. This is such a detrimental way for them to be seen or for them to think that other people see them this way. It goes right into their sense of safety. And then I think it immediately brings up defensiveness, obviously, not not being able to hear your partner when. When they're labeling you.

Yeah. And underneath that, I think it's really that sense of shame, that sense of, oh, I must be a bad person if you believe I'm gaslighting you or manipulating you or trying to change your belief around this.

Right.

Like, it's. I think you've labeled that, like, spiral just so perfectly there. It's like questioning our. Our character, getting defensive in response.

Right.

When you say to somebody, I'm going to blame you in a certain way, I'm going to label you and just attack your character. That's the word I'm looking for. If I'm going to attack your character in this moment, you better believe the other person is going to get defensive, because underneath that, it's just the shame spiral of, whoa, you think that about me? Am I a bad person?

You believe I'm a bad person, which.

Is the complete opposite of what we're trying to do in a safe and secure partnership.

Yeah. And I think it is important to talk about gender dynamics a little bit here as well, because I think there's a lot of messaging around men not doing it right, men not doing the work, men not being emotionally available, not being able to communicate. I see so much of that messaging. And I think then when we label a partner or we're critical of them in the moment, it confirms that message that they're getting from everywhere, that they're not good at communication, they're not good at being emotionally available. And then it's that shame. Exactly what you're talking about, the shame spiral, the shutting down, the pulling away. So I think in the moment, sometimes, you know, we do this. We. We think we're going to say whatever we can to hurt our partner, right. If we're, if we're really activated. So it might be something that comes up in the moment where you know you're, you're hurting your partner. But, but thinking about what that's doing to them in terms of how they see themselves and how, how they already think society sees them, I think it, it definitely leads to a lot of shutting down, a lot of distancing, and certainly then in. You need a ton of repair after those moments.

And of course, we all get into our negative cycles and that doesn't feel good. But again, it is like you've touched right there, that repair. Right? So we do say things. I remind couples when we're escalated, we know. And when we hurt, when we hurt deep down inside, we know the very thing to hurt the other person. So for those listening, ask yourself, do I know what word to say? Do I know how to approach my partner to really hurt them when I'm feeling hurt? And that repair, like you're saying, Morgan, is so important. And then at the same time, though, that's calling us to say, well, how can we do this different? How can we approach this in a way that's actually bringing our partners in and not hitting that core wound? And as you're talking, I immediately thought of this recent post I put up around understanding when our partners shut down. And for the most part, we know that in most dynamics, not all, but many men end up shutting down in conflict because of the way their nervous systems and biology work. And the reaction to a lot of that was, why do I have to be the one to do this? And I can just feel that exhaustion from so many women saying, I've been trying, I've been trying, I've been trying. And that's just this, like, big struggle that I think a lot of relationships are facing right now. Why do I have to be the one? I'm curious how you step into that with the people you work with or maybe even in your own relationship.

Yes, of course. I'm thinking about my relationship with my fiance, Robert, and we've been together now for four years. We're getting married this summer. Very excited.

Congratulations. It's so exciting.

Thank you. He is very wonderful partner. I feel very, very lucky to, to be his partner. One of the things that has worked so well for us is me modeling and really showing up securely attached and modeling how to have difficult conversations. Throughout our time that we've been together, he has gone to therapy, which I'm so excited about. So he has his individual therapist. He's really, really worked on himself. And still, we're still growing together. One of the things we've been working on recently is when I feel like we're having a discussion, I call it a discussion. Maybe it's a difficult conversation. He experiences it as an argument or a fight. So I've had to really practice. Okay. When we're having these, these difficult conversations, I reassure him and I say, hey, I know this is tough. I know we kind of have different viewpoints and we're talking this through. This is a discussion because he didn't have those conversations modeled for him. So of course, when they're happening, he experiences it as, oh, my gosh, we're having a fight.

It's interesting because the thing that I was thinking about is for people listening and you're in that position of, why do I have to model it? I'm so exhausted. This is so hard. Why aren't they doing their work? I think something we have to consider in our partnerships is are they always, always. Can you actually map this in some way that every time you say something to them, every single time they come back in that defensive, dismissive, shutting down way? Or is it some of the time? And some of the time, are they also then coming to the conversation, being curious and wanting to learn more and trying to repair in some way? And it's this idea and what you're saying, Morgan, as well as nobody shows up as completely healed and doing this perfectly and getting it completely right all the time. And it's so interesting to hear about you and yours and Robert's experience, because Greg goes the same way and he's talked about it here on the podcast in the sense that early on in our relationship, he would feel this sense of doom anytime we were having a disagreement, anytime we were trying to work through something that didn't feel good for one of us. Mostly me, because of how I step into the dynamic, but it was this sense of him having to learn we're allowed to have hard moments. It's the how do we come back and repair through them and how do we do some of that work without and I think this is the piece where we're really coming into here is that we don't want to attack someone's character, we want to understand someone's behavior.

That is so wonderfully said.

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I'm. I'm thinking about even a conversation I had yesterday with Robert where I remember I said to him, stop getting defensive. And in that moment, I was definitely a little bit emotionally dysregulated, hadn't slept well. You know, there's all the factors, right? But I look back on that and I go, what if I had said I feel disconnected from you? I feel like you're not hearing me right. There's. There's always ways that we can show up differently. I'm not perfect. I have studied relationships for over a decade. You know, I'm a psychologist. I know you know this. There's no perfect person in a relationship. All we can do is keep growing together, repair together. And over time, it just, it just gets easier and easier and easier. Right?

I'm chuckling because yesterday I had this, a similar experience with Greg, and it was. I had said, you're being defensive. I don't know if there was some energy in the air for us, Morgan, but we, you know, we were outside, was doing lawn work and he was watching the Masters, you know, amazing win for Rory. And he came out to check on me and I had said something and I was just stating a fact, and he responded somewhat defensively, and I said, you're being defensive. And then he was puttering around me. I was sweeping something. I said, actually, you know what, Let me try this again. I think I'm saying I needed a bit more connection before you went off to spend all this time watching TV and That's okay because I support you doing that. I want you to watch this. I know how much the Masters is to him. I know how important that is to him. And, and I needed a connection. But it's so interesting how our default is to then go to you and to point out to someone else's behavior. But again, can you just imagine though how difficult that would have been if you had said something to more of the extreme? And I've seen it in my therapy room. I still remember a couple where they were escalating and I was trying to pull out what each partner was doing in their cycle and he started to get defensive and she in her anger and dysregulation goes, do you see Dr. Tracy? He's gaslighting me. And this was back in some of the earlier days where gaslighting was being used, misused. And we would have consultations in my therapy practice to really suss out what is this and what isn't it. But I could see in that moment though, with this couple, just the damage that did in the cycle rather than her being able to say, I'm feeling angry, I want to blow up, but I think what this is really about, or I want to like attack onto you, but I think what this is really about is me not being understood. It's really this like going inwards. And I love that example with you and Robert yesterday.

I love it. And this is why we have to learn how to self soothe. We have to learn how to regulate our emotions. We have to learn how to pause and take that deep breath and say, how can I go into, hey, this is what I'm feeling. This is, this is what I experienced when XYZ happened. Because you and I know if you're emotionally dysregulated, if you're still carrying around your past trauma, you haven't done work to release past relationship dynamics. If you're not sleeping well, if you're not eating well, if you're not doing the self care things, how can you be expected to show up well in conflict? Because it does take more energy. It does, it is more intentional, it takes more effort. But when we do that, it is a complete game changer for our relationships and we're much more able to repair as well.

For people who maybe don't feel like they've gotten to where you are in the work that you've done on yourself, what were some of those earlier steps for you to get to this spot and that sense of security and being able to see the pattern, feel Secure. With Robert.

I always go back to having to revisit my childhood wounds from the place of the emotionally available adult ideal parent that I needed. Right. So being able to revisit things that I experienced my. My childhood trauma, my early relational trauma from past romantic relationships, being able to revisit, have compassion, make sense of it, and. And work on fully releasing it and, and practicing forgiveness. Because I really believe that we carry. We carry that unfinished business with us. And it's not to say that I don't still carry it, but I carry it so much differently. It's not being reenacted in my relationship dynamics anymore. So I'm not experiencing Robert as my emotionally unavailable father.

Right.

I think so many of us unconsciously, that helped me recreate my childhood woundings. And I was very good at playing the part of the wounded child.

Yeah. And that ability to just slow it down and to see what part is playing out here and how can I then step into my adult, secure self? What would that sound like? What can I offer myself really bringing awareness. It sounds like the awareness was that first piece there. Morgan, thank you for sharing that. I know you openly talk about your experiences in your community, and I also, every time I see something that you post, I think, oh, gosh, this is just so helpful. Because again, I think one of the things that therapists, psychologists, that we're doing differently today is we're opening up the curtain to say, hey, you know what? Actually, through our own healing, and this is what it looks like. And we don't go on and tell all the details of our histories, but to help people understand what this works actually looks like. And just because you've reached this point to be a psychologist and you're working with others to build secure, healthy relationships, it doesn't mean we haven't had our own journeys. I wonder if it's worth a moment here, if we could play with these words and actually define them and maybe we could step into. Let's. Let's do gaslighting first. How would you tell someone to recognize the difference between gaslighting versus maybe, say, defensiveness?

Yeah. So, and gaslighting, it was like the word of the year, wasn't it? A couple years ago, there was a time.

Oh, my goodness, was it 2019 or before the pandemic? Was it before the pandemic or our.

During.

It might have been.

I don't know.

I have to look it up.

It might have been during. I feel like it was like 20, 2020. But yes, so. So this word has been thrown Around a lot. And I think gaslighting, this is a consistent, prevalent experience where someone is making you question reality, where they are invalidating you, making you to feel that you're crazy. And this is a pervasive pattern that's happening again and again in the relationship. And I will say, I think that it's often accompanied by people who have narcissistic traits. What would you add to that definition?

Yeah, I often think of defensiveness as this desire to protect the self versus gaslighting is an attempt to get you to change in some way, as an attempt of control. So not so much.

Yes.

And defensiveness often sounds like the child parts of us. Gaslighting doesn't. That, that's. Yeah, I'm working with that out loud here. I don't know if you'd be. If you would agree with that.

But yeah, I agree. Yeah. Gaslighting sounds calculated. Gaslighting is very intentional and calm and calculated. And the desire is to. And to make you question yourself. Whereas defensiveness is emotional. It's. It's protective in the moment. So very, very different experiences.

Yeah. Defensiveness is this like, child part of like, I did do my homework. I did pick up my shoes. Why don't you believe me? Why can't you just see who I am and what I'm doing? Right. Like that kind of like it comes.

From this internal desire to be.

Seem to know that you're enough to know that you're adequate. I don't want to pontificate, but I have to. I always want to say this out loud. So I'm going to say here. I struggle a lot with the flexibility of people using the word gaslighting. And I've heard many people say, oh, look at me, just go ahead and gaslighting myself. And I cringe when that happens. Because when we talk out loud or we're going through something in our brain, we're not trying to create this sense of self doubt and misunderstanding and all of the things that gaslighting are. We're actually trying to work through something. And I don't know. I don't know what you think about that. If you've heard other people say that.

No, I mean, Tracy. So you know that I'm a survivor of intimate partner violence. And I. I dated someone with narcissistic personality disorder for a year and a half. And at the end of that relationship, it was the thing that led me to my career. So I'm, you know, I'm grateful for it. But when I think about that experience, I Experienced gaslighting, actual gaslighting. And it was pervasive and it was consistent and it happened on a daily basis. And it led me to this place of having such low, low self worth and not even knowing who I was anymore. And it was completely used as control. So when I think about that experience, it does bother me to see the word get tossed around because I feel like it almost invalidates the experience of what it actually is to be on the receiving end of it and also.

The long term impact of that. I remember several clients I've worked with who have come out of those relationships and how it is this kind of sense of when you're in that it's this crazy making almost. It's like I doubt everything that I say or all of my experiences. And then so when these clients have left those relationships, we have been working so hard to build that sense of self again, to even be able to identify what is a true thought of yours, what is a true wish, desire and like of yours. And so when we're flippant about using the words, it really does downplay that experience that comes up in relationships. So thank you for sharing that.

I feel like this is important to mention. I've been in a couple different circles with people who are online creators, like business masterminds, et cetera. And I kid you not, I was coached by someone, they said you just need to talk about narcissists, gaslighting.

They.

They were like, those are. That's the thing that gets attention. And you know what, Tracy? I really think that that's part of why we see so much of it. Because it is extreme. It is, you know, very polarizing and painful and gets people's attention. So then we start seeing this term everywhere, not, not realizing it's a way to get attention. Right? Like it's just getting thrown around social media all the time because it gets, it gets more attention, it gets more shares, it gets more likes. And, and that's. That's really sad to me.

I screenshotted a. I'm so glad you said that. And I'm really glad that you said that so that other people can hear this. I think it is so important because, yes, there are these catchphrases and I've noticed I had a reel where I used the word codependency on the actual video and it went viral. And so these words are becoming hot topics. I think I screenshotted this one because I was so mad at it. And this is. I don't remember their training. Maybe a coach but someone helping people build healthy relationships. 10 gaslighting words you use without realizing it. Oh, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Yeah. And we could use language like, you know, 10 invalidating words.

Yeah, yeah. So here are some of them. And I'm going to say that these words alone do not make it gaslighting. That there is so much other behavior to go with it. And also along with manipulation. Right. So I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not what happened. It's frustrating. You can't even take a joke. You're just overreacting, as usual. I guess I'm just a really bad partner. You're too sensitive. This is why no one wants to talk to you. Like, you know, there's. Oh, there's elements in that. Like, it's sticky, there's stickiness in it. And because so many people hear those things again, when we get into the negative cycle, when we feel hurt, we say these things and we don't understand when we're trying to protect ourselves from being vulnerable. And what I really wanted us to sink into here is this idea around relationships being nuanced and needing context when we talk about those things. So I. I want to pause because we've digested a lot here and I want us to then take this pause. We're going to come back to part two, so don't leave us hanging. Come like, we're not going to leave you hanging. Come back to part two and let's then talk about how we can start making some really powerful shifts in our relationships.

I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this.

Information is for educational purposes only and.

Does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. See you next time.

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