In-Law Drama to Teamwork: How to Get on the Same Page with Your Partner Before the Holidays

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go to guide for Navigating Relationships, Boundaries in Laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, you this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good.

Welcome Back to Dear Dr. Tracy. This is the third episode in my special special series leading up to the launch of my book, you, your husband and his Mother. And today I'm sitting with my husband Greg to unpack some of the biggest questions that come up around marriage in Laws and Boundaries. If you haven't already, make sure you go back and listen to the first three episodes. In the first one, I talk about those common challenges that show up with mothers in Law. In the second one I sit down with Janelle Marie to talk about boundaries, Pat passive aggressiveness and daughter in law math. And in the third, I had a deeply honest conversation with psychotherapist Whitney Goodman about estrangement and what healing actually looks like when family relationships get complicated. Today, Greg and I are diving into your questions. The ones that came into my question box, they're anonymous, they're real, and they're so good. You're going to walk away with practical tips on how to move forward, whether you're struggling to set boundaries, you're feeling torn between families, or you're just trying to get on the same page as your partner. And if this series is resonating with you, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast and share this episode with a friend or your group chat. It's one of the best ways to help more couples find these conversations and feel less alone. And of course, the very best way to support me and this work is to pre order my book. When you do, you'll get access to my exclusive live coaching session taking place on October 30th. It happens right before the launch. I'm going to be working directly with a few people on how to network navigate these exact challenges. It's going to be honest. You're going to hear stories so you know you're not alone, and you're going to walk away with the full step by step tools that you can actually put into place today. You don't want to miss this. All right, let's dive into today's conversation. Today, Greg has a list of questions. He's going to ask them to me. I do not know what they are, but we're going to just have a conversation about how to navigate all the things. And I just know, I just know from the questions. I skimmed the question box when I had first put it up that so many of you are going to relate to these questions.

Yeah. You don't know which specific questions I've chosen, but I tried to pick ones that I think are going to probably resonate with people who are maybe finding themselves in this space with their extended family.

Yeah.

Is that fair to say?

Let's go.

Okay. First one, how do I get my husband to stand up to his family and take my side?

Oh, this is such a good one. So it's really interesting because I think what shows up in relationships is really this desire to be believed.

Yeah.

And just to be validated and that I think we have to differentiate between what are the actions we're actually going to do versus what's the piece around validation?

Is that, is that kind of in response to air quotes, take my side?

Yes. Because is it that you're asking him to believe you and to see what your experience is, or is it that you want him to put in place what it is that you want to do and there's a difference.

And it could be both, I'd imagine.

And it absolutely could be both. Because I think sometimes for a lot of us, it might not be necessarily needing to change anything. Right. Like, we accept, we, we can get to a place of accepting that family is important to us. But every time you go to your mother in law's house, she instantly comments on your parenting or the baby's not dressed warmly enough. We can come to a place. It's hard, but many people can come to a place of accepting that. And then at the same time, going to your partner and saying, this really hurts me. And when you want them to be on your side, you want them to say, I can completely understand what that must feel like for you.

Right.

So let's even start with the validating piece then. So if you're going to your partner and you're saying, I'm having this really hard experience, this is what your mom is doing. And of course, when you go to your partner, make sure you focus on describing behaviors and not your perceptions. The perceptions and assumptions are often what get couples stuck.

Stuck, I'd imagine.

So when I go to. If somebody goes to their partner and says, your mom intentionally tries to manipulate us.

Yeah, that's a, that's a big assumption that that is.

And it might feel that way for you, but we want to make sure we're rooting it in what the behavior is. So your mother said this and then she did that, and that doesn't feel good. And so if your partner then is responding to you and they get defensive, then you can say to them, okay, hey, hang on. What did you hear me say? And, and also what I'm actually looking for right here is this. I think for so many of us, we get stuck not necessarily explaining the need behind the expression. What's the need behind the behavior?

Right.

I'm coming to you and I'm sharing something with you. I just need you to listen. I just need you to hear what I'm saying and how hard it is.

So do you think in this case the female partner needs to say, like, use that need language? Because when you say it, it makes a lot of sense. But I can imagine a lot of people, like in the heat of the moment can't express themselves that clearly.

Yeah, I think it's really tricky in the heat of the moment to be able to say what it is that you want to need, which then also almost asks us to slow down this entire conversation. And that's really hard to do. Right. You know, I'm thinking about this time of year and so many people already are saying, oh yeah, got the group te, when are you coming for Thanksgiving? And I'm hearing the themes around rigidity, around control, around the we just have to be the good kids and go to our parents house, even though we have the three month old, even though we're with a toddler, even though it's going to be snowing out. And so I think what then shows up here is that we're not slowing down and having these intentional conversations because we're sitting beside each other on the couch. In comes the text and you go, your mother just texts us, of course she wants us home for that day. And that frustration can just comes out.

Yeah. It doesn't seem like a great place to start from though.

No, it, it's not. It's not a great place. It, it's, it requires us to pause. And you know, I say this all the time in this community of like slowing down, pausing, just simply noticing something. And if your partner has a hard time being on the same page with you, then maybe it's about not saying it right away and giving it a beat before then bringing it up. So then let's think about how then you go to your partner and you're looking for a behavior change. So I'm going to stick with the Thanksgiving one because I know for so many of our community members in the U.S. thanksgiving is coming up correct. We've already had ours. And then we have other holidays coming in December. So what what's going to happen then? Here is you go to your partner saying whatever the thing is that you want. And this is something that I walk people through in the book, which is my five step vault method. And the first two steps really are about getting clear on what's important for you and your family. So the V, there's lots of different exercises in the chapter stands for values. So the vault method, there's five steps. The first step is values. What really matters to us. And a lot of people who are grabbing the book who are having these conversations right now, we can clearly say that family matters. And so then we need to ask ourselves, well, what about family matters? What is it that we hope to have happen? How do we want to show up with them? And then the a, the second step is really about aspirations. And alongside this you are, I am talking about the nervous system in this chapter of how we get out of autopilot mode. Because a lot of men get stuck in autopilot mode when it comes to their family. So there, mom texts and says, can't wait to see you on Thursday for Thanksgiving. Autopilot sounds good, Mom. And then sitting beside him, his wife is like, you just agreed to this. We haven't even talked about it. How did you reply so quickly? You didn't consider me.

So that's part of this, the second step. But then that piece in there as well is this long list of questions. It's actually one of the pre order bonuses to get some of those questions now. And that is to help you then get really clear. What does it actually look like to have a holiday. Holiday celebration. How are we including families together and start talking about your desires and expectations? So the question again, this is such a big question.

Yeah. You say it. Yeah.

What does it mean to get your partner to take your side first?

Stand up. Yeah. And take my side.

Yeah.

And it might mean something different to different people. It's like, are you trying to cut the other family out? Are you just trying to find a way to kind of co create and have it be like a reasonable experience?

Yeah. So I, for listeners, I want you to know this book is so jam packed and I have almost, I'm describing it like a tear out section at the back that you can then give to your husband to read. Five pages. That's it. With five pieces of wisdom from Dr. Tracy, I'm going to tell him like it is. And the first piece I say is when you do nothing, you are actually part of the problem and that you then make every relationship worse. And I think a lot of times people say, I won't say anything. I don't want to rock the boat. But by not doing that, you're ending up silencing your partner. And then you too are struggling through this. So really this work is about seeing that your partner is not asking you to abandon your family, but instead to choose each other first and to prioritize each other's feelings. You can, you can rewind this and play this right in front of your partner so they can hear this.

Yeah.

Dr. Tracy is saying, I am not asking your partner to abandon their family, but instead, now that we have a chosen family, we prioritize the thoughts, feelings and desires within our family home. And then we decide what we're going to do moving forward.

Get off of autopilot.

That's an important one. Do you think I answered that? Is there?

Yeah, I, I mean, it's, it's, it's tough because it's, it's so, it's so broad. And, and as I'm. Listen, you, I'm, I'm just thinking about, like, there's so much nuance and context to it because each couple may or may not be struggling with this to a greater or lesser extent. I mean, we're talking this morning about kind of, you're hearing the horror stories, but then you're. I'm sure there's many people who are kind of in the middle where there's. It's not terrible, but it's not amazing, you know, so.

Yeah. And there's this piece here of saying to your partner, what is this? Like, what is this about for you? I want us to be a team. And when you are a team with me, everything flows easier. I'm not asking you to abandon your family.

Right.

I am saying, can you focus on we alongside integrating your family into this? And so if your mother is making those sharp comments that are like those tiny paper cuts, then asking your partner. And again, this is all depending on the family relationships, depending on the type of mother in law you have, which I outline in the book. Depending on the relationship you want to have with everybody, though, that critical comment might be something that together you and your husband acknowledge. And it's powerful when he says, I heard mom say it. I'm sorry, that doesn't feel good. I know we can't change her and we've agreed not to say anything, but I want you to know, I see that that's one piece. Or can he then step into that space which requires him to get off autopilot and say, mom, you don't need to comment on our parenting. Hey, mom, we're not talking about bodies in our family. Hey, mom, politics is off the table right now. Right? Like there's just something in there. And the conversations I've been having with a lot of people, Greg, around this is that boundaries are not that complex. But.

No, it sounds simple when you say it. I've said this to you before too.

Our adult brains make it so complex that we have to rationalize it and over explain it. And I just worked through this case recently where this person was trying to like flip the family event so that it was like, easier for them instead of just saying, this is exactly what I need. I don't have to like give a rationalization for what I want to need. And often when we think of boundaries, one of the best things you can think of is how would a five year old, how would a seven year old do it? You know, our seven year old says no, I don't want to, no I don't want to hug right now, I'm not going to play with you. They're just easy expressions. They're not attached to your worthiness, the lovability, or all of this rationale for how things should be different.

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Well, that was one question. Let's dive into the next.

Okay. Ironically, how do we set boundaries without it turning into conflict or being seen as disrespectful. I think it's worth flagging too. Like these questions obviously came in from people who maybe are struggling with this dynamic. Right. And what I was trying to say earlier is, as I'm kind of hearing you answer the question is.

I think what you're trying to say is it's really about finding a way for you guys to go forward with the event, have a good experience. And I've said this to you before privately is I think, which is really important. But you come to it through a negative lens almost because something's bad is happening so people think everything's negative. Instead of what you're trying to turn this around and say is like, here's some things you can do. And I'm thinking of the guys listening to this is like, it sounds negative, but how can you turn it around so it is something that does happen instead of it going to the other extreme where it's cutting out the family or estrangement or whatever the case is.

Yeah. I'm gonna add something to that. It's. It's this. Yes. And because even people who have good relationships with their in laws or extended family still come to me saying, I don't know how to communicate this. And that's because it's almost a pressure cooker moment as well. There's so much weight on holiday events or these experiences or having a new baby. And you're trying to balance what it means to have this identity as a parent. So yes, for many people they are having those conflictual experiences, but for a whole other group of people, it's really just this. I don't know how to express myself.

Yeah, I think that's. My point is like, so we're coming to it, like these questions are coming to it through this like, negative lens, this bad experience. But there's a whole cohort to your point, of people who are just like having middle of the road experiences or like, how do I, how do I handle this? And I think for, like, I'm just thinking, particularly for the dudes out there, it's like, like, oh, oh, like this is bad. I don't want to deal with it. Versus what. When you're actually, what you're actually saying is, no, this is some fairly simple things you can do. So it is actually not as hard as you're making it out to be.

I am putting you in the hot seat. I find it so interesting that you're coming to this conversation in that way.

Why?

And I think it's Maybe even showing some biases of your own that I, I'm hearing these questions and I don't assume that they're in this negative space. I'm talking about in law relationships all day long, not thinking that they're all bad and negative, but instead it's this.

Lens of, yeah, but you're the expert on the layperson.

Yeah. And I, and I love that you have called this out because I know that when you go and have the drinks with the guys or you're hanging out after dirt biking, it's almost like taboo to be like, how things going with, you know, the mother in law.

Yeah.

And, and it's not though, because we all exist in relationships with other people and just the sheer fact of us being in relationships means you're going to entertain conflict. And you know, I've said this. This is the cycle in our relationship. This is the cycle of connection, disconnection and repair. And we get so uncomfortable going from connection to disconnection. So uncomfortable instead of being able to say, and this is for our guys listening. Like, listen up. Conflict is not bad. Go back to episode two of this season. You and I did a great job tackling this conversation. Conflict is not bad. You actually build healthier relationships by entering into these hard moments. We need these conversations. We need you to go to mom and say, listen, mom, we love you. We love time together every Thursday, Thanksgiving. I know you love the whole, the whole thing. And yet we can't do it this year. I know that's hard for you to hear, but we're going to focus on our own tradition this year. It's crazy bananas. Renovations, kids, stress, work, etc. We can't wait to find another time to celebrate it. And guess what? Mom's going to be upset because you're changing the legacy pattern. Yeah, you are. And you also have to trust that you and mom can repair that.

True.

And not everybody can, but we can almost predict how it's going to go. Mom will give you the silent treat for a little bit. Mom might give you a little bit of the guilt tripping text. So I miss you guys. Thanksgiving's not the same, you know? Yes. Prepare yourself for that and know and trust that you can move forward.

But you're, you're proving my point.

I was like, you're proving my point.

Right. A lot of, like, a lot of people who might be new or not as seasoned in this stuff, you know. Oh, yeah, it must be bad to be talking about this. And you're trying to flip that and.

I love that you are adding that here and really just contextualizing.

Because I don't think the everyday, particularly the everyday dude who's. Whose wife has just sent them this, is thinking through it like that. Hence the book, I suppose.

Yes. Hence why we're going to put these on nightstands. Hence why you're going to come and listen to these episodes and just really know that these do not need to be Big bang moments.

That's right. Okay. Totally derailed.

That was the boundaries. What was the boundaries question again?

How do we set boundaries without it turning into conflict or being seen as disrespectful?

I think one of the first things you need to understand is that you don't get to control how the other person receives your boundaries.

I knew you were going to say that.

We've been together for too long.

It's true though.

It is. Because it's uncomfortable. Absolutely. It's so uncomfortable. And. And we can almost predict that others will be upset about it. So how do you do this? You come in first with a lot of love, compassion, kindness, gentleness and reassurance. What do we all need in our relationships? And let's also especially think of the mother son bond. A mother wants to know that she still matters in her kid's life. That never stops. Whether you have sons, daughters, it doesn't matter. And so then when it comes to communicating you as the adult child, you're not placating them, you're not soothing them, you're not being their therapist. You are being a human to say, hey, you matter to us. So starting with that softness and empathy really helps to bring people forward. And hopefully the other person can hear that we don't get to control if they will or not. That's step one and then step two. Clear and concise. You don't need to add in more words.

It's the less is more.

Yeah, absolutely. Less is more. It's the really short clarification of what's going to work for you. Now here is the most important piece. And I want this piece just to really resonate for people. So as you're listening, hear this. We often make requests of people and then wonder why they aren't respecting our boundaries.

Because they're two different things.

They are two different things.

So give us an example there. I've heard you say it before, but make it.

You go to the family event and you say, I don't want you to ask about my parenting.

That's a request.

That's a request. The boundary is what I am or I'M not willing to do. My boundary is I'm not willing to talk about my parenting decisions in my mind. I know, because it doesn't feel safe in this environment, because I don't want to argue with people. And I'm also exhausted, and it's not something I want to explain. So then when another person brings up, oh, well, why are you just doing it? You're. You're gonna raise kids that.

All the soft kids.

Soft kids, all the comments that come in. And as soon as someone says that, that's the moment for you. You get to decide, what do I want to do right here with this? My boundary is I'm not going to engage in it. So I might say, and then I leave the room and I go to the bathroom and I splash water on my face. That's the boundary. I'm not willing to engage in this. So that's for people. If they can't hear your no. Or for other people, you say, I know you're curious about this. Do you want to hear more about it? If they're open and willing or.

That's a good pivot.

Yes, of course. Right. Like, are you just kind of putting.

It back on them?

Yeah. Are you open to hearing more about our choices and what, what I've learned along the way?

Kind of the why.

Or you say, that's not really something I want to go into today. And then you pivot the conversation and you talk about the Chiefs or the Leafs or whoever's team you're cheering for. You know, the bridge game or tai chi that mom was at. Right. So that's, that's the action piece and all of that. None of that is harsh or rude or disrespectful.

It's true. It's a skill, though.

It is. And it's one that we have to practice. And after family events, I just, I remind couples, do a post mortem, have a review. How did things go together? And that's actually one of my steps. Step five in the vault method is about taking action. I walk you through step by step, how you're actually going to do this. And one of those pieces is around, what does this post mortem look like and how can we do it together?

That's part of the take action. Cool. Okay, let's move on. How do we handle holidays and family expectations without losing our sanity or marriage?

Kind of along the same theme.

Such a demand around holidays. And this is really the. Can we pull back before we say yes to anything and ask ourselves which what is really Important to us thinking right now because I know sometimes families are also, they have the like 94 year old grandmother that it might be the last Christmas. And so you do want to have that event that might be part of the conversation. It might also be about how do we see families at other times and not have to travel in the busy airports and all the things and expensive flights during these particular days. So when I then think about what does it mean to do all of this traveling and extra time with family for some people, they say it fills me up. I absolutely love it for sure. And others will say it's exhausting and it drains my batteries. So if this is a challenging time for you, make sure you're resourcing yourself ahead of time and then knowing when the event is plan those extra days afterwards. I just told this story recently about a client that I worked with who would describe going to her family and then afterwards she would say, it just feels like I'm humpty Dumpty, having to put myself back together again. That's emotionally exhausting. And the reason she kept going to family was because it mattered to her. It mattered that her three kids got the generational stories from the grandparents and so on. And so while there wasn't anything that was intolerable and abusive, it was emotionally draining to be in that environment. And afterwards, then she would create a care package for herself. She would plan for the half day off of work, she would give herself the extra travel time, she'd schedule a massage for that week. All of those things smart.

If you know, if you, what do you say? They're predictable and consistent. Like you learn to know what's what, what the feeling is going to be like after. Cool.

Yeah, we, we can, we can hold on to that. Families are predictable and consistent. So if you know that your family always brings up a certain topic, prepare yourself for that.

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Let's dabble on the expectation piece around families and how normal it is for everybody to have expectations. And part of a healthy family dynamic is also you communicating what you wish and desire. Okay, let's talk about the expectation piece because here's the thing. We all come in with expectations and oftentimes families communicate it, but then the couple doesn't. So everybody needs to come.

It's one sided.

It's one sided. Everybody has to come in and communicate what they want to need and recognizing that you might not be able to meet all of those expectations. And that doesn't make you a bad kid. It doesn't make you doing something wrong. It means this year you're having to prioritize other things. But remember this, this is about having these conversations early. It is about getting ahead of these things rather than saving it for that last week conversation that doesn't go well for anybody. Jeez, these procrastinators as as you chuckle for yourself. Yeah.

Okay, let's move on. How do I manage the dread or anxiety before seeing my in laws?

Yeah. Oh this just requires you to have so much self care and compassion ahead of time. And I want to first come in and normalize that experience that you are choosing to do what is aligned with your values. There are reasons why you're going and at the same time we're going to hold two truths. Your body for whatever those experiences that you've endured is saying this doesn't feel good. It's your nervous system. Your nervous system doesn't know the difference between a bear knocking at your door and just the thought of going to that family dinner. Right. So it is this piece of recognizing and saying, thank you body, thank you nervous system. You are telling me that this is hard. You're telling me that this is dangerous and I can learn to bring calm into my body. And when I'm doing that with you, I'm putting my hand on my heart and I'm saying of course, of course I get nervous. Of course I feel anxious, anxiety and dread given all of the things that have happened. Because I think the last thing that we need to do is to shame ourselves for having these feelings. So pop in first with a big dose of compassion and then do something that's going to be good for your nervous system. So if we think of anxiety and dread, that's often it can be more of a fight or flight, going for a gentle walk, doing meditation, maybe it's listening to some music for yourself. If you do feel more of the shutdown mode here, you'll want to practice doing something more activating. So maybe you're doing some running in a spot for 30 seconds on, 10 seconds off push ups, a heavy workout, something more to activate your nervous system.

Is there something the couple can do ahead of time?

I mean, having a good solid hug ahead of time would be great, right? We talk about 30 seconds or a six second kiss as a bonding moment to release a couple oxytocin, but yes, pause, slow it down and say, how are you feeling about this and how powerful it is for your partner to come in and say, I know we've had tough experiences with mom before. Can you tell me how you're feeling about going into this event? And then he just validates her, I hear you. It makes sense.

Is there something tactically in this example he can do during the event? Is there keep checking in, code words, that kind of thing?

Yeah, maybe you text each other if something hard comes up, Maybe you look across each other, you know, squeezing the leg underneath the table, Something along that lines.

Cool. Okay. Kind of in the same vein. This next question is how do I respond to subtle digs, comparisons or manipulative behavior from my mother in law?

This is going to depend on who you're working with. And that is why I go through the different types in the book. That's chapter one. And it will depend on the relationship you have with her past experiences and how she's responded to any kind of Feedback and also what the relationship is like between you and her, what you hope it to be, and also how your husband plays a role in that. So how does your partner play a role in that position? And so oftentimes those kinds of comments require you to either move on and to not say anything or just to assert yourself, but not to give it attention. So, you know, and Greg, expand on that. I think, I think people would be really surprised to hear that there are mothers in law who make hurtful comments to their daughters in law behind their son's back. That's one. That's one scenario. Or the other scenario I immediately think of is mothers in law will say to their daughters in law, you stole my son. I immediately went to this idea, you told you stole my son.

They don't actually say that shit, do they?

Yes, that's fucked up. The stories they do. And it's hard, right? And of course, you know, I come in with so much compassion about this, but it's just such a complex dynamic. Anyways, how do we reply to this?

Yeah, it's hard to. Yeah.

So this is reminding me another, like chapter 10. I go through so many specific scripts and examples of exactly what you're gonna say in these moments.

Jesus, I love chapter 10.

So in this moment, you might say to her, you're right, I did, but you'll always be his mom. And then you walk on, you move us. Right. But yeah, you're right, I did, and you'll always be his mother. Or you might say something like, that's not really helpful and then move on. So if, let's say the critical comments are about babies not wearing, this is a big one, Greg. That shows up for a lot of people. Comments about what baby is wearing and how baby is dressed. And I think there's a generational difference around how we believe babies should or should not wear socks.

True.

Socks.

Really?

I don't remember socks being an issue.

No, not trash.

Actually, that's not true. I remember being at the grocery store and other women would come by. Older women would come over and make comments about temperature. Oh, you better put a blanket on that baby.

Oh, really?

You know, yes. The piece here that shows up is we want to then decide how are we going to respond to it and can you just let it go? And I think of dropping the rope, which is when I'm holding and pulling the rope. I'm trying to get you to change. I'm trying to get you to see that's hurtful. What kind of thing is that to Say right.

But it doesn't really move anything.

It doesn't. You're just resisting the whole time and you exhaust your energy. Instead, just drop the rope. Or as you know, I like to say with my clients, not my monkey, not my circus. Right. Just step away from it. You do not have to deal with it. You accept that you are not going to change this person and then you get to choose what you want to do in that moment. And I think that is so powerful.

Okay, so this next one literally stacks on top of that. How do I protect my baby and make parenting choices when my mother in law oversteps?

You will always be your child's mother. I want to label this first. You are that parent. I know Dr. Becky uses the language sturdy parent. And so you continue to be that parental figure to your child. And so sometimes you're going to be using their voice and standing up for them. So at the table, grandma says, no, you can't have any dessert until you finish your plate. You come in there and say, oh, grandma, that's actually not a rule we apply. So it's okay that Johnny didn't finish whatever and we're gonna go and have dessert. And. And that's you being that sturdy leader. Or if grandma makes comments that are passive aggressive or don't feel good, you can do something in that moment so your child sees you modeling it. A hug is a big one. Grandma says, come give me a hug. And child says no. And grandma says, you're supposed to hug your families. You step in there and say, actually Grandma, you know, little buddy doesn't want to give you a hug right now.

Right.

And that's all it has to be so you knowing and you can prepare yourself in advance. You know what those comments will be, prepare what they are and then have those statements ready for you in a very kind and gentle way.

And remember, I think that's key.

It is. And she's not going to like them.

No, but you might get buy in versus being like I'm imagining someone just being like, oh, like super negative back. Like that's, that's counterproductive too, I'd imagine.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, let's move on.

Starting to notice some trends here. How do I say no to visits, face times or expectations.

Without guilt? Oh.

It was easy until the last part.

Without guilt within themselves. Yes.

Or both. I mean is that's the context? We don't know.

So I think it's without their own guilt.

I think so too.

Okay. Oh, we have this beautiful group of people in the world who are the pleasers and the caregivers and who want to look after others. And we so much need those people. And at the same time, that guilt is going to be so strong for you because it's bumping up against another value. Your value of family time as the chosen family and your own autonomy and freedom to move around the world is just the three, four or five of you versus the, the value of extended family. And they're literally doing this against each other. And that's why you feel guilt. Our job is not to make guilt go away, it's to simply notice it. We're not going to hang on to it, but we're also going to remind ourselves that you are allowed to have boundaries. You are allowed to do what's important to you and that's going to be flexible. So while the kids are 1 and 3 and you're trying to get dinner going and the water's boiling and someone's crying and the dog's crying to go out, you're probably not doing a lot of FaceTimes in those after school, daycare work moments, right? And then I think this other piece in here is. So then what do we do next with that? Communicate with your families. Let them know, right? This is the piece about getting ahead of it. Hey, I know you would love to do FaceTime these times.

5:00'S not in.

These times are absolutely bananas. You can try us. We might not be there.

Yeah, don't be pissed off if we don't answer. We'll call you back.

We'll call you back when we can. And it might also just be about asking, what's your expectation around FaceTime? And someone might say, well, I want to talk to you every week. And that's where you might say, you know, I totally get that. And I love how much you want to be involved here. And that's not really possible for us. We're going to make this special time here. That will be here. But I can't promise you anything. And just for the listeners to hear this from me.

I do not like FaceTime.

I was just with the kids, I was just going to. You beat me to it. I was just gonna say FaceTime is a double edged sword, isn't it? It's incredible when you think of it just on its face value, excuse the pun. Like it's, it's, it's remarkable. And also it's a train wreck sometimes.

It is so hard.

There's like this millisecond delay. You're trying to jam people on the screen. Like, I'm sure people who are smart do it like on their TV or something. We're sitting around a phone that's six inches wide, forehead stuck together.

But kids also can't do that conceptualization though, Right? So can we. And I think we're almost forgetting something. That connection isn't necessarily built on face to face. Your grandkids won't forget who you are. They're going to remember you. There's probably pictures of you in their home. And also calling and talking on the phone is just as meaningful. And I think even of like our days, I had good relationships with my grandparents and yet some of them I didn't see very often. But I can tell you I did not like speaking on the phone to them.

See, I didn't mind speaking on the phone. The FaceTime is the next. Oh yeah, it's tricky. I think in fairness to the grandparents too, it's like, I think they kind of get an expectation that'd be this grand visit. And then the kid's there for like 10 seconds and pieces out. And then it's like. And then kind of maybe they're. Yeah. And then they're disappointed in a sense. Right. Well, it's not what they had hoped for. So it kind of cuts both ways.

I know we're addressing a lot of questions from daughters in law specifically, but I want to speak for a moment to the extended family members, to any mothers in law who maybe clicked play or who are going to be a mother in law one day in the near future or are transitioning into that role. And I, and I hope you are listening and knowing that this conversation really is about building healthy families together. And one of the things that I really want to emphasize is that this isn't about you not getting your needs met. This isn't about you having no needs to coexist alongside a family. Instead, it's about a co creation. So if you would like to have a FaceTime to see your family, go to them and saying, I would love to do this. How can we do this together? Does it work for you? What would that look like? And, and express that. And if they're not able to do it, it's not this kind of layering on wanting them to change because that's what you want. It's more of a. I understand. Is there something else that we could do that feels really special? And then maybe instead of trying to get these FaceTimes in, maybe it is once a month you're traveling to a mutual spot to see each other or you're having those park dates together or.

If it is FaceTime, it's really showing up with a lot of flexibility on, on when it happens. And if, if you have it planned for 5:30 and it goes off the rails, well, try again.

Yeah.

Okay.

Moving on. How do I stay calm or compassionate when I feel constantly disrespected? It's unclear from whom, but take this however you want.

Yeah, I would take that probably that she feels constantly disrespected from her mother in law. So it is tricky and I think even just sitting in this awareness that when you are not being respected, it is incredibly hard to show up in that way and it does require a lot of self regulation. And so those moments might be a time where you're taking on a lot of those extra strategies for yourself. So if mother in law comes over, she's on the floor with baby, you excuse yourself to the bathroom for a few moments, splash water on your face, you get that calming cup of tea while she's around you, maybe. Also we've been talking a lot on different podcasts around how to do family holidays. Maybe instead of when you go and live in your in laws house for three days, you make sure that you as a family of three or four are going out to take those outings, excursions together and then coming back together so you have space or if you're feeling that sense of dysregulation. So example, you're at the holiday dinner table and the, you know, you knew it was going to happen. Everybody's fighting because politics got brought to the table. You and baby say, okay, we're going to go for a walk and then go outside for the walk. Let's connect, let's connect this idea here that in order to stay calm and connected, it doesn't mean you force yourself to stay silent in a situation and to stay stuck in that situation. Instead you find the things that are going to help you through that. I had one client, had this beautiful stone that she would carry with her and she just keep it in her pocket and she put her hand in her pocket and ground herself holding that stone. It became like this soothing and safety reminder for her.

Okay, here's the next one. How do I handle family dynamics when there's conflict among siblings or extended family?

This is an interesting one. I know many people struggle with this one because there's an element of wanting to almost smooth things out and to have a space that feels good. And I think what's important to Recognize is that everybody in their own relational dynamic is responsible for their relationship. It's not your job to get into the middle. And so if you notice there's a conflict between say your mother in law and other brother in law. Don't get in the middle. That's a triangle. You have to let them work it out. And if one of them comes to you lamenting and venting about the other person, there's your boundary which says, I'm not going to do this. This isn't helpful and it doesn't feel good. I'm going to end the conversation now. And that's one way that you protect your own peace. And then you also protect you not getting drawn into that because that can feel so incredibly stressful.

That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, there's some context I think missing here, but yeah, I think there's.

Just an element here of, you know, we often think of families. Here's what we do. We pull it all together for that two hour event. Because family is important to you.

Yeah. It's our value.

And because you want to be there and you recognize you can't change these people. And so you put aside all the conflict and you don't have to like what someone else does, but you just protect your peace. And if someone is, you know, the sister in law sitting beside you and she's talking about parenting and how she can't believe you're doing this still or that way or which way, you do not have to go into that conversation. You get to choose how you show up and what you respond to, but you can't control that conflict at large. You just get to decide, how am I going to just completely step out of this and let them do what it is that they're going to do?

Yeah, that seems to be a theme coming from the answers. It's like you can't control other people's behavior. You can't control the outcome. You just show up authentically still with kindness, clarity.

And I want people to feel though that you get a sense of agency and power by seeing what's in front of you. What's this dynamic unfolding? And then also how can I choose to respond to that?

Makes sense.

Wow.

We've gone through most of the questions already. So this final question, I think, which is very fitting. So here it is. How do we decide what's fair? I know you love that word between his family and mine.

Oh, the fairness.

The context is you're a child of two, I'm a child of three. So guess who grew up in the fairness world.

I think we should contextualize that a little bit more as well is that I grew up as one of two girls.

Correct.

And so I think even being the same sex kind of leads to this like, fairness idea. But also I think generationally, even a lot of us can connect to that.

Sense of for sure.

You know, and my mom listens to all my podcasts and she did amazing raising us and me with all of my deep feelings and all the things. And yeah, that fairness piece is really difficult. So it's never going to be fair in families. And I think that it's just a hard truth. And saying even to your partner, because that's the person first who has to be on the same page with you, is that this isn't about comparing apples to apples. These are apples and oranges. And we can't compare the same. They're going to offer different nutrients, they're going to offer us different things. And that's really special in some way that families can do that. So we can look at the flip side of how they're different.

Yeah, that's interesting.

And the reality too though is that for a lot of women, they do feel more comfortable turning to their mothers. Not all, because some women also describe having the abusive mother and so they feel more comfortable turning to their own parental fake career. And if especially she's with someone who has never set boundaries before with his own family and then that creates conflict, then how do you do a fair piece? When you go to one family and you feel like a scapegoat and you feel safe in another family? That is a really big question. It's not the same.

It's not fair.

And so then we need to first then look at. Okay, so how are we communicating this to families? If. If your mother in law is comparing the time you spend with her to your family, I think there's a reality of saying, you're right, it is different and you're different families and we're making this time for you here.

Yeah, we're kind of doing our best. Right.

And then to also say it doesn't help to compare yourself to this other family and let's not engage like I'm not going to engage in that conversation. Yeah. And that again, right? There is a boundary, It's a loving boundary. Of course you feel insecure. I, I get it. And at the same time, we're here with you, we're doing this with you and you get to have this special relationship with us and the kids. We're not going to entertain the comparisons though. It's never going to be fair.

I mean, yeah, I was just going to say the premise is almost set up to fail. Like it just inherently is really hard to be fair. There's so many externalities, geography, relationships, other siblings and their extended families. Like it's just to have that expectation I think is really tricky.

It's a really tricky one.

Yeah. But I do think there's a generational thing too that like in this case our parents generation maybe still looks at things through that lens where maybe the next generation maybe less so to to.

Over generalize of that connection to wanting to come from a place of what our values are. It is interesting.

I bet fairness is higher on their value chain than the next generation.

I don't know. I mean I, I don't want to over.

Yeah, I'm generalizing for sure.

I, and I get it too though, because I know even with, with the kids, I mean this happened the other day. Our daughter's birthday gift arrived, it's a late gift and it arrived. And so then my son didn't have something in that moment. And wow, did I feel that pull because he was upset. And it makes sense. Like one kid gets something and the other doesn't. Like that's not fair. I would feel that too. Right. And actually as I say that, I'm remembering Brene Brown saying that fairness is one of the, the earliest feelings that children experience. Two years old, three years old, you're getting that that's not fair. Why? And this, you know, we teach our kids this when they're like, why don't I get a snack when he's getting a snack? And we go into the what do you need? This isn't about fairness. This is about what you need. And so maybe even as I add to that answer there, I think the question more is asking then the parent or the grandparent, what do you need?

Yeah, flip it.

Right. And that is even more powerful. So instead of you getting into this debate about, well, you know, we saw you this time and then we saw my parents this time and an end get into that conversation of wow, it sounds like something is really hard here. Can you help me understand what you need? Do you need more?

That's really smart.

Do you need to feel important? Like can I even sit here and say to you, you matter to us and if you're having that hard feeling, like I want you to know we care about you and can you hold that in mind when that kind of fairness things come up for You.

Because I think the reality too, would be that would go so much further in developing and strengthening the relationship versus just it being fair or equal.

100%. Okay, so those are all our questions. I'm curious.

Yeah, those are the ones. I grabbed it.

I'm curious for you if you kind of have any last words of wisdom, you being the guy here, our regular dude.

Well, I think I. I think I alluded to it already, is.

That while it sounds like a tricky situation or a negative kind of entrance into some of these relational stuff, I think what you're offering and the book is offering is a proactive, positive way to have the relationship and not lose the relationship. And as the resident layperson, that's the challenge. I think it's. You hear these stories and see these questions, and it's kind of like, oh, that's really tough. And, you know, the answer isn't to cut people out. The answer isn't to not do X, Y or Z, but it's to do it. Do it in a respectful way. Do it in a way that prioritizes the couple, but also extends the relationship back to the extended family or in laws.

There's an element in here, too, of. For many of us, how do we give that positive interpretation to others? Right. And because it's so easy to get spun into our own narratives, not just us as the adult children, but also for the extended family members, also for mothers in law listening, for the moms listening to adult children. Get more curious about what's happening because I think we often miss so much like texting and Facebook messages, like the posting of things on Facebook. We just lose so much context and nuance.

Yeah.

And there's also this element, too, of what. What do I need to do then for ourselves, to look after ourselves? And I always have this, like, caveat to this conversation, Greg, because I never want someone to hear this kind of conversation and say to themselves, well, I guess I should just be tolerating this. And it really is your own individual decision of whether you get to this place of going low contact or no contact because it's been so bad. And that when it comes to the estrangement piece, which is, again, I'm just going to encourage listeners to go back to the estrangement conversation I had with Whitney, is that it's. When you get to that point, it has been so painful for so long that nobody can understand what you've been through or how you got to that decision. So I know that with these questions that people are really talking about boundaries right now, which is not the place of estrangement, but it's also that identifying that for some people, they have tried repeatedly over and over again and they don't know what else to do next. So I always want to just put that into context and understanding that only you and your partner can make the best decision for you and your family.

Yeah, like there truly is a spectrum. Sometimes you have to do more drastic things.

Probably that's hard. All right, thanks for hanging out with me today.

Yeah, thanks for answering those questions. Hopefully that helps some of the people in the community and glad I could jump on and throw them at you, see what your game is like.

All right, Greg, and I hope this conversation helped you feel a little bit less alone in these challenges. And I just really want to normalize how common it is to struggle with boundaries, with family, with also building your own sense of self and self respect instead of giving up yourself and having to please everybody else. The questions you sent in were so good. They're real, they're relatable. And so if you've been nodding along, I just want you to know you're not the only one. And here's something that I want you to take away from today's conversation is that boundaries are not about punishment or control. They're about protection. This is you protecting your energy, your values, what matters to you and your piece. And when you and your partner can approach them as a team instead of being on opposite pages or opponents, everything's going to start to shift together. And that's exactly what I do in my book, is to teach you how to be a solid team and to get aligned so that you can set those boundaries and feel like it's not just this holiday that's going to be good, but it will be continued development of the relationships that you want. So please check out the link in the show notes. I've got my book links there for you. The book is coming out November 4th. I just know so many people are going to be talking about this book and it's going to be blowing up in people's group chats because they're going to resonate with the stories, but then also feel like you actually have this handle on what to do next. And that's so important. All right, don't forget to leave me a review here. Click subscribe. Share this episode with a friend in your group chat or even play this one with your partner because of course, this is how we open up these conversations and we help more people find them. So we'll be back next time with more around mothers in law and around setting up healthy family relations relationships. I'm just so grateful that you're here. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next week. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for informational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider.

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