Infidelity Isn’t Entertainment—It’s a Wound: Why People Cheat and What Happens Next

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Us@Liquidiv.Com welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist Robert relationship expert and your go to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries in laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. The Coldplay Jumbotron song that revealed the affair has captured global attention. But here's the thing. Sitting in the therapy room, affairs aren't entertainment. Over the past few years of this podcast, I've been asked several times to do a podcast episode on affairs, and I have sidestepped that intentionally because this is such a painful experience that it can be really challenging to do justice to this conversation at large. So I'm going to set this up first by saying that this podcast episode for sure is not therapy. It is not a space that's going to cover every aspect, and it might even feel a little bit hard to hear some of these things. But what I want to do today is I want to talk about why people cheat and where do we go next after that? And I think it's really important for us to sink into understanding that affairs are deeply painful for everyone involved. I have sat as a clinician with the person who has been cheated on with that individual. I have sat with a couple who is working through and trying to go through the mud of the post affair of post infidelity. And I've also sat with many people and I'm going to clarify this. I'm going to really sink into who that is. I have also sat with many women and many men who have also been cheating on their partners and are coming to therapy to try to work through the do I stay or do I go dilemma. And one of the things that I know what we do, and I've read comments, I've seen all the memes, I've seen just the pouring in of commentary from everyone is that we lose compassion and empathy and understanding for people. And because I worked with all of these people in different positions, I come from this in a position of empathy. I come to this conversation of building understanding and, and also healing for the direction in which that person is going to choose. And I think we can all sit into this experience. And I want to even label this out loud. The people who come into my office, the ones who are cheating on their partner, who are engaging in infidelity, they don't sit in my office feeling entitled that they are doing it. Most of them do not. And instead they're in deep pain. They're in a deep struggle in what is happening in their life. And they know in a way that what they're doing is not really what they wanted to be doing. They will say things like, I should have ended my marriage or I should have done this before that. And I know that we want to vilify people. And at the same time, I'm going to come into this conversation by yes, acknowledging this is a not great choice, and it's a painful choice. The reason I don't sit in judgment in any of these situations of who I'm sitting with is because I know that all people are already feeling so much shame. The person who decides to stay feels shame at having decided to stay. The person who has cheated on their partner feels this deep sense of shame. I want this to be a reminder here that we're not judging or excusing, but instead we're understanding the why beneath the rupture. Let's talk about the problem with this popular narrative that shows up around infidelity. There are common expressions like they must be a narcissist, or once A cheater, always a cheater. Or I could never. Or if they cheat, it will definitely mean we would never be together. And I was once that person. I remember being that person. I was 22, and I had said, if someone cheats on me, that's it. And that actually came from my own history of having a previous partner cheat on me. And so when we get into these statements, we end up oversimplifying human behavior, and it ends up stopping us from having deeper conversations. So I think what I want to be able to say is not all cheating is rooted in narcissism. And. And that I think it's really important for us to understand that it feeds something inside of us to find blame. And we feel relieved. Then, you know, even thinking about this Coldplay experience, we feel relieved when we can find the bad guy. And that in a sense, right? So who. What was the cause? What was the reason for the falling of a marriage? This gives us this false sense of safety, because then when we go inside ourselves, we start to say these if then rules. Sometimes we don't even have access to them. And I'll give you some examples that show up in. In my therapy room. Often the most common one is, if I'm good, bad things won't happen to me. This is the just rule hypothesis. And yet good people make devastating choices. So here. Here's this kind of if then rule. It's a common one that shows up, especially in couples, is that it's the if we're having sex once a week, then I know my husband's not gonna step out on me. And this is one of the reasons why I always have this gut reaction to when people report on the average. I'm using quotation marks, average amount of sex couples are having, because the frequency at which you are having sex does not equate pleasure, satisfaction, security, emotional attunement and connection. And so I think what's important here is that most people who cheat are not seeking to destroy their partner. They. They're seeking something they've lost in themselves. And when people come into my office, they think, how could you do this to me? And we need to process that, and we do. And it's also exploring the stuff within the person who has stepped out of the relationship. And I'll share more about that a little bit later. So let's explore these deeper roots, not as a way to give an excuse, but instead to build understanding. And the piece here is, we don't like this behavior, and we can still build understanding around it. I think those two truths are really important. And the comments that I've seen around this public experience of the couple at the Coldplay event is the shaming. And I get it, because I know we want that justice for someone who has been hurt. But when we further shame people, we end up further hurting ourselves. And that question sometimes is, well, what's this itching inside of me to then have to shame the other person for that? So as we go into this, I'm going to hold two truths. We can acknowledge that cheating is not a good decision, and we can also see someone else's deeper pain. And if you are in the thick of this, I'm going to give you this permission right here. If you are in the thick of this healing right now, and as you're listening, you feel it in your body that's not feeling good, you say, okay, you know what? I'm going to skip this part. That's okay. I give you permission to do that. Or maybe it's just not feeling good because it's stirring up something for you. Listen to you as you're going into this. And that's. That's the same as your social media intake right now, is that if. If this is too much because everything. This is how the algorithm works. You spend longer than expected on that one reel. Maybe you liked it, maybe you went to the comment section. Guess what? The algorithm now knows what you're looking for. And then it feeds you three others or five others. I don't know how it works, but more of that content, and then before you know it, your entire feed is this. So if you need that social media break, I give you full permission. If you need to not listen to this right now, that's okay, too. As you're moving through this, this is all an experiment in listening to what you need. All right, number one, there is a disconnection from the self. When people feel cut off from who they are, from their needs, their wishes, their feelings, their own thoughts, their own desires, what ends up happening is they start looking outside themselves to feel alive again. It's when you can't connect with yourself, you look outwards at other things to connect. And sometimes this piece here, that disconnection is because it's actually really scary to connect with yourself. I remember one client describing it like there was this board, and it was like this client specifically could not go inwards to look to see what. What the feeling was around an issue, what the thought was around the issue. And it was like a brick wall that would just show up so there's often this disconnection from the self. And this person then maybe feels like they've only become the role that they're in. Maybe they feel like they're only a parent or they're only a caretaker instead of actually being an autonomous person. Autonomous, meaning they have a sense of freedom. They have a sense of power and control. Not the. The gross narcissism, power and control, but the I feel I have agency in my life. When we get disconnected from ourselves, they will say things like, I don't recognize who I am anymore, physically, emotionally, sexually. And what ends up happening then is the affair becomes a mirror. Someone is reflecting back, a version of themselves they. That they long for, that they miss, that they haven't been in contact with. And that is appealing. It helps them to feel alive again. And so it's less about who that person is, and it's more about how that person makes them feel. Perhaps they feel more interesting, alive and desired. I remember one of my clients, after having two children, said, it's like I just don't even exist in my own life anymore. And then this other person, it felt like this other person sparked something inside of them. And they saw them, like, really spent time seeing them, which is not what was happening in the home outside of that time working alongside that person. And I think this leads into the second reason why people cheat. And that is that there's this longing for aliveness. So it's not always about sexual, but it's about vitality. And also, I'll add to that, that I often see most people who are in my office. I see that people who step out of their relationship, it's about this emotional connection. It's about feeling seen, feeling like they matter, feeling like someone is interested in them. And so one of the reasons people step out then is the sense of feeling more spontaneity, feeling excitement. There might be an activation. There's an activation in the nervous system. Excitement, dopamine, adrenaline. Like there's just something that is a spark in here. And it's not necessarily about wanting someone better, but more about someone new. And so this is often someone who has then shut themselves down. Not so much that they've disconnected from themselves, but more that their relationship has flatlined. There's no spark, there's no excitement, and they're needing that. And that's the other piece I want to connect in here as well, is that one of the questions I ask people is what is it that you were needing in your relationship that you were getting from stepping out of the relationship that you were getting from the affair partner. Many of my clients will also say that they just want to feel alive again. And this is tricky because the there's also this awareness here that the spark in a long term relationship is going to change. It's going to ebb and flow in seasons. And it actually reminds me of the quote that Esther Perel shared around we'll have some. What did she say? We'll have something like three different marriages in our lifetime. And my hope is that it'll all be with the same person. I can't remember exactly what the quote is, but she says it so well. And it's this idea that every day we're choosing to grow our tree branches together. When Greg says to me, hey, did you notice the grass is growing? Well, this year you recently shared that post on Instagram. And I turn to him and connect with him and we then plan date nights and we then put on music and be silly. And these are the things that they're small things frequently that spark something inside of you and that's for you to find in your relationship. And it's this prioritization for both you and your partner to see that you have to put effort into the relationship so that you can both feel alive. As I say this, I'm also thinking about how relationships change. And sometimes we're not willing to accept that change and that part of who your partner might have been when you first met is no longer there. And that question then becomes, am I willing to accept that, that this part of them that really drove me to them, that sparked my desire, is no longer there. Can I accept that or do I need to change?

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Another common reason why I see people stepping out of their relationship is because they don't feel heard, seen, or there's no vulnerability in their partnership. I often hear from people that they feel this deep sense of loneliness within their relationship, not just outside of it. And I Think that's a really hard piece, is that you go to bed with someone every day, you wake up beside them, you sit beside them at dinner. But there's this deep, deep core loneliness inside. And those small moments of disconnection end up compounding over time that lead to resentment and disengagement. And I'm going to pause here again and say these are not excuses for why it's okay to step out of your marriage or why it's okay to cheat. But instead, we're building that understanding and that when somebody feels this sense of emptiness and loneliness inside, our inclination is to reach for people who do care, who do listen. The people that I work with who have cheated on their partner, they will often say that they reached many times for their partner, for the other person, and they weren't there. The other person is withdrawn. Again, I'm not saying this is okay, but this is someone who is so deeply alone. And this person comes along, maybe it's at work, maybe it's on the sports team, maybe it's in the parent group, and this is someone else who listens, who cares, even if it's just a little bit, and something sparks there for them. I remember one of my clients sharing how this person that she was engaged in an affair with had taken such a deep interest in who she was, who she was becoming. Whereas in her marriage, this, her husband, was more like they were living two ships passing in the night that they weren't, weren't finding ways to grow their tree branches together every single day. And she felt deeply alone. Another reason why I see people stepping out of their relationship is because there is a deep sense of conflict avoidance. And if conflict avoidance rings true for you, I've got that in episode two of this season because it is part of stepping into the relational arena and showing up with vulnerability and talking about things that feel hard and scary or triggering. And so what someone does then is when it doesn't feel safe or it's too vulnerable to be emotionally open at home, then this person will avoid the vulnerability at home and take that emotional intimacy in a way that feels easier. And you know what's easier? The reality is in when we are having an affair with someone else, you are not in the mud. You're not in the thick of it, of life. It's fun. It doesn't require you to talk about who's doing the laundry. It's got all of the hormones related to that newness. It's not real life. And it's that sense that it's easier. And the truth is because it feels like it would be too much of a rejection to go to my partner and say, I feel lonely. I need us to have time in this way. And that's the need. But then we push that down and then this person steps out of the relationship. And so the the affair becomes an escape. I didn't want to hurt us, and I also didn't know how to fix us either. I remember working with one client several years ago and this was their story. They had the classic pursue, withdraw dynamic. And he would shut down and not bring up these hard things. There was so much going on inside of him. But he couldn't turn to his partner and instead then stepped out of the relationship. And this person offered a conflict free space. And the power of what this person did is fully started to acknowledge his own wounds and the healing he needed to do. And he had to start stepping into facing conflict head on rather than shoving it down and turning elsewhere. And I think this leads us to this last piece here around why someone might step out of a relationship. There are a lot of unprocessed wounds. There's a legacy trauma. There are childhood hurts and wounds of not feeling enough, feeling abandoned or unworthy that are showing up in their relationship. And for some people, then when we can kind of connect this back to something that's so important in our relationship. And one of the reasons why we're fighting while we fight is to find some kind of sense of control or power. And it's not in a bad way, but in a way of being able to stand on your two feet and say, this is what I want, this is what I need. There are some people who will look for validation and not see that actually they have a hole in their bucket. And that that hole, that which is their wound, their legacy, their childhood wound, that hole is what creates this cycle for them of needing, feeling like they need to seek that validation and then not feeling like it's ever enough with their partners. But then stepping out of the relationship can feel like a salve, but it doesn't truly heal that core wound. And these are patterns that will often repeat until the deeper pain is addressed. I think of one person who had said to me, I just kept needing someone to tell me that I was okay and to validate me. And that's what this outside person gave me instead of being able to believe in myself. And that was what I had to start learning, is that I am good enough and I don't need to seek that outside of my Marriage. One of the posts that went around was around affairs starting in the workplace. And I'm sure many people kind of felt shook around this. And I think what is important for us to name is that, yes, we do spend a lot of time in the workplace. And there are these micro moments where vulnerability could happen or the stress that you're experiencing at work creates this common shared bonding. And so the workplace can become this fertile ground for emotional affairs, not always intentional. I think that's the other thing that's important here is people don't go to work thinking, I'm going to start an affair on my partner, but instead it's opportunistic, it's available and it's there. There's on one hand, the proximity there, but there's also this emotional investment that occurs because of the person that you're working with. Commonly get asked the question if opposite sex friendships can work. And I think that really depends on the emotional intimacy boundaries that you've set with your partner. And I often think about what Dr. Stan Atkins writes in his book Wired for Love. And it's about understanding the couple bubble. And in the couple bubble, he gives this example of if one of them is feeling insecure and says, hey, you've been talking a lot about Dave at work. Do I have anything to worry about? And her secure response, response is, oh, sweetie, you're my guy. I don't, I don't think that's how he wrote it, but you know, you're my guy. It's only you. When it comes to our own wounds or our own moments of insecurity, we can turn to our partners and ask for that reassurance. And they're not going to throw it back at us and say, why are you so insecure? You really need to go work on that. Instead we say, I know that sometimes you feel insecure, and this is a moment where I'm letting you know you and I are good, good, you're my person. And I think there's another element in here as well is that for both people to explore. So if there is an opposite sex friendship, what is it that's triggering, what is it about that that's triggering what inside of you? So there's an exploration of the self. So this is an example of, okay, so if inside of myself, then I feel anxious about it, what's that tied to? Is it about a lack of trust between us? Is it about my own history around trust? And then thinking about what is it that you need? And going to your partner and Then you can decide together what are some of those boundaries that you hold together. I had one person share that. They do have opposite sex friends, but they immediately bring in the other spouse. And so it's part of the conversation. Any plans that are made, the other person's brought into it. So then it's not this siloed experience where you have this other life, but instead we're all in this together. And the other piece I want to say here is around the content and information that you are sharing. If you are going home to your partner and expressing the vulnerability that you're feeling, expressing the struggles and the hard moments. And with that friend at work, you're talking about the weather, you're talking about, you know, the kids just did this at camp this week. That's much different. But if you're giving the good stuff and you're being vulnerable, more vulnerable with the work person, then we need to ask ourselves and go inside and say, okay, what's happening here? And what is this a flag for? What's happening inside my marriage and what is it that I actually need? What am I getting from this friendship? And could there be a blurred line? How would I feel if this were reversed and my partner were doing this instead? And I come back to how this conversation is such a big one because now we're starting to dabble into attachment, security and around what it means to prioritize our relationship. Okay, I'm going to step into now speaking to the person who has been cheated on. And I think sometimes, not always, but there are some people who step into this feeling like it was their fault. And I want to say this wasn't your fault and you could not have controlled this. You felt things in your relationship and you chose to cope with it in a different way. So if your partner is saying, well, you didn't, I am going to say, no, we're not going to accept that because I think it's important for the person who is. I'm going to use injurer and injured language so I can label people. So the injurer, so I can label which partner is which. In this conversation, the injurer needs to own what they did and what they weren't getting, but not in a way of criticizing and attacking you. And as the injured person, you did not cause this to happen because each of you has your own sense of agency and choice. I think that's so important. But I'm going to add this here. What happens next is within your control. And so I think there's this element for you of making space for all of the feelings that are showing up for you without this layer of shame. And the layer of shame often sounds like, how could this happen to me? This must mean I'm not a good enough partner. We didn't have sex enough. I didn't do the right things as a partner to hold them. No, we're. We're not going to do that. But let's. Let's eliminate shame for a moment, okay? And I do this in therapy. And the therapy room often say to people, hey, pass. Pass me that pillow. That pillow right there, that's your shame. And I'm gonna hold it. Now that I'm holding your shame, what feeling is this right now? What feeling is showing up? Because here's the thing. Shame binds to other emotions and stops you from being able to fully work through something and to process it. So we've got to put shame to the side. You are not a bad person. You are not enough. We can notice it. And also come back to the core feelings here and allow yourself to work through that. I think it's also really important that we recognize that feelings don't just go away with one conversation. This entire. And working through this. I remember working with this couple who every time it came up one per the. The injurer would say this again, we're going through this again. I thought we already talked about this. And when it comes to these injuries, when I'm going to call this as an attachment injury, this is a breaking of the emotional bond, the physical, sexual bond between you and your partner. The attachment injury is not healed in one conversation. And so, yes, you are going to revisit it. And the real healing actually becomes how you respond in those moments, throughout those conversations. Because each time we go into a conversation, we're going to uncover a new little piece of it. This is a different type of conversation than ruminating and coming from a space of anxiety and insecurity. And that's tricky because we want to also look at the distrust and insecurity that you feel, and that's important. So we want to start understanding what is it that you need to help rebuild trust, and how can you also then separate this from your lovability? Insecurity is I'm not lovable. But if we start from a place of being lovable, then we can ask ourselves what's going to help us to build trust. So then the other piece here, this kind of piece that I see keeping couples stuck is not just how the injurer responds and Says, ugh, this again. It's how the injured partner then comes forward with it. I remember this with one couple is the injured partner would feel this sense of anxiety inside and then would say, show me your phone. Tell me this, Tell me you love me. And it would just keep coming. It would, it would. It would just be kept throwing back at that person. And that doesn't help. And it also doesn't help then if you are the injured person, to continue to say to your partner, well, you're the one who cheated. And so this is why we're here. And that's going to keep you stuck. It's going to keep you stuck in the past, in the hurts. It's not going to help you process what's happened and be able to move forward. The other thing that is challenging, and this is everybody's personal preference, but we need to understand what this will give you behind this. And that is around asking for details. Our brains like to fill in the holes and make stories, and then they'll run with it. And so it's going to really depend what is it that you really need to know that's going to help you understand this? And I remember this research around infidelity, which is that women struggle more if their men have an emotional affair. And I believe it was men struggle more when women have a sexual affair. So that women are trying to connect. I don't like using the women and men piece here. Um, but this was the research from before. And it's that again, I'm going to talk in heteronormative language here, that women are seeking emotional connection from their men. Not all. You know what I mean? Not all. But women are seeking connection from their husbands. And so then the idea of them going and giving that emotional vulnerability to someone else is so painful. Whereas for men seek connection, not all men, many, you know, let me do this expression, Let me have this conversation a different way. And that many men end up seeking connection through sex. And the idea then of their partner having sex with someone else is more painful. And I really want to say that not in a way that everybody is like this, but in a way that. That's what the research has shown. I think there are some really important questions for you to ask through this. This is not a clinical guide, of course, this is not the full work. This is us dabbling in this conversation. Um, my Amazon book page has a section specifically for infidelity, if you wanted to find the books that I recommend around this. But you can ask yourself of is this A pattern that's been happening in our relationship, or is this a rupture and is my partner owning it or are they minimizing it? And the next question I think is really important is, can I trust their behavior and not just their words? And if you're saying that I'm going to trust their behavior, you have to truly trust it. And also appreciating. And I love Brene Brown's marble jar analogy, that trust is earned over time. It's not something that we just have and then can have again. But instead, when you say, I'm going to pick you up at 5 and you show up at 4:58, that's a marble in the marble jar. And if you say, I'm not texting anyone, and indeed you're not texting anyone, that's a marble in the marble jar. But when we break trust, that jar of marbles that you've been building over the years and your relationship spills over and breaks. And so then we're working to build trust, which is the. I said I'm going to be home at five and here I am at five. We agreed that our phones are not locked, that we can build this trust. So when you say, can I see your phone? That yes, I pass it over to you. Trust is also in that emotional responsiveness that when I say to you, my love, I'm feeling anxious right now and this is really hard. And they say to you, I'm so glad you told me, instead of the minimizing and berating you for, oh, this again. And the other piece in here, I'll add, that I. I work through with clients is talking about anniversary dates. One of my clients every year around the time would have this sense of unease in their body. And that first anniversary, I remember when she came to session, she's like, I don't know what's going on. There's just this like great sense of anxiety inside of me and I'm not sleeping well and I'm having bad dreams. And we processed what this time of year symbolized for her, which was the discovering of. And so she had remembered the trees changing colors and. And that similar felt sense brought through those memories as well. So I think there's also this element of acknowledge the anniversaries, acknowledge that our bodies remember. And that's not always going to be like that. Then that same client, I think it was four years later, she was able to say, I've gone through this time of year and I don't feel that sense of anxiety anymore. Okay, if you're the one who cheated, there's an element in here of great discomfort for you. And you are heading into this head on. You're going to be looking at your own wounds, you're going to be looking at your own pain. And part of what you want to avoid doing is to jump into fixing. There has to be a layer of understanding and asking yourself why it happened and questions that I actually prefer of why it happened is what was this other person giving you? Or what was the affair itself giving you? What were you craving or longing for that wasn't in your relationship and what did it symbolize? And I think it's so important that you don't leap over insight and rush to repair. There is this sense of exploring this for you and trying to understand what's happened for you. And it's the story, the narrative of how it got here and to remember at the same time. What I just said earlier for attachment injuries is that every time your partner brings it up, this is an opportunity for you to heal it or to make the cut deeper and you want to heal. And so asking your partner, when you come to me bringing this up, what will help you feel safe and secure would really help you to understand what can I give my partner in those moments? Because again, we're not making this go away. Don't ask them to rush their healing. Don't give it a time mark. We're not saying three months and you should be over it. That's not how that works. I think it's also really important, because this is so painful, is that when you step out of a relationship, whether you decide to stay or go, for both of you, for either whoever decides to do this, this doesn't define you. And so it's important for you to address your own shame that was lurking there before. I want to emphasize this, that yes, there were likely dynamic things that were happening with your partner, and that also probably stemmed from a lot earlier before meeting your partner. So I was thinking of the man who never asserted himself, who shut down and didn't express himself to his wife. And he found an affair partner at work who allowed him to feel fully seen. And this was actually the work that we ended up doing was exploring his childhood trauma of feeling deeply neglected, of feeling like his needs were laughed at and not attuned to. And so it's deeper than what is happening right in front of you and remembering that your marriage is a reflection of your own wounds and that you played a part in recreating that. And not because you should have known, but because you weren't ready. You weren't there with awareness at that time, you weren't ready to see it. And it's so important then to be able to see what were you needing and what the affair was giving you that you weren't getting from your partner and what you were doing. So this is the part where we don't want to blame our partners and say, you weren't there for me, you didn't listen to me. It's almost like going inside of ourselves and saying, I didn't tell you, I didn't demand it from you, I didn't do it again, sitting across from you saying, I need this or I can't stay with you. But this all requires you to sit in discomfort. The discomfort of your own feelings of what's showing up, but also the discomfort that your partner is bringing to you or that you're feeling rather as a result of what your partner is bringing to you. And we want to get to the core of this and not stay stuck in the upstairs stuff. And I think the other piece here is really understanding that true accountability means changing your behavior, like doing the things that are going to create trust, not taking it personal. If your partner says can I look at your phone? Not taking it personal. When they say you said you would be at home at 5, it's 5:30. And my mind just went to the worst case scenario. That is about meeting your partner where they're at, giving them the reassurance, holding yourself accountable and allowing yourself to be vulnerable with your partner. The biggest question I get from people around affairs is can a couple heal and. And the question is more rather, are you willing and able to do the honest, vulnerable and long term work? I have seen couples go from one version of their relationships through the mud and come through other versions, greater versions of their relationship. And that is powerful and hard work. But it also requires transparency. It requires rebuilding emotional safety. Like what does this actually look like for the two of you? What does it mean to be vulnerable together, to share things when your partner shares, are you using the are conversation? I've got that inside. Be connected. Are you willing to look at your own stuff, share that with your partner and then when they share their stuff with you, for you to both make space, understanding, empathy and compassion for each other, are you willing to bring in weekly check ins and marriage minutes every single day and get intentional about what you both need to move forward? There's also this element of making space for grief, rage and repair and that rage is not to say you're allowed to rage at your partner, but rather to be angry at how this has gotten here. And there's this piece here where we want to define what do these types of conversations look like? Because for both partners, depending on who you are, it's almost like, is it. I. I've been thinking about some questions that I've gotten from people and it's like, well, how do, how do I get to bring this up? Because when I do bring it up, my partner, oh my gosh, right here. And so the example of the one time was that we're sitting down to dinner, I'm feeling insecure, I bring it up, and they're just trying to eat dinner. So it's like you have to negotiate together. And these are all the skills that you need to practice and aim for in your relationship is how do we make space to share and hear each other with whatever it is that's showing up. So how do you bring these hard things up? Do you schedule that conversation where you get to be honest and self reflective and be good listeners and compassionate with each other? And the conversations then also shift from how could you do this to me? To I'm struggling to know I matter in this. And this is one of those moments where I need. I'm thinking about a conversation I was having around this work and how powerful shame is for people in the sense that it's not just one partner who feels shame that they stepped out of the relationship, but there's also this layer of shame for a person who decides to stay. And that's challenging. And I. And it's even more painful with all of these comments that are showing up on, on social media in the world right now, in the sense that there's this belief that if you are staying with someone, what does that mean about you when you. When they cheated on you? And yet this is the piece I really want to offer you today. Nobody knows what it's like to be in your relationship. And so nobody has the right to judge your decision or to judge you whether you decide to stay or go. That is a choice you get to make. That does not make you a bad person. That does not make you less than for deciding that you are going to fight for your relationship. I had a friend call me many years ago and she discovered their affairs. And in that moment, what I said, she had come to this many years later, had actually chokes me up. She'd come to me many years later and said that was one of the most Healing things you had ever said to me like that you said to me, and I'm grateful for it because I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for you saying that. And it was when she called me telling me that she just discovered this. I had said, whether you stay or go, I'm going to support you with whatever you need. Because when someone is going through this, they don't need you to stand on your moral platform. This is a time to connect into our humanity, to see the pain of another person and to say, I'm not in your shoes, but I will be your friend. I will not fully understand the choice you make, and I will be a friend to sit beside you and to have compassion and empathy for all of the pain that you must be feeling. So for anyone who's listening, I want you to know that this is your choice. And this is a chance for you to build a new narrative for the relationship if you choose to stay. And if you do choose to stay, tell yourself that you are going to redefine what your relationship is. And you get to do that. You get to redefine it. And that's the active choice here. That's your active choice of agency. So all that to say healing is possible. Your relationship will not be the same as it was then, nor do you want it to be right. That's this element of grief. It will never go back, nor do you want it to be. But it can become stronger with more intentionality, vulnerability, and connection. All right, let's wrap up. This is a challenging conversation, and it can be so personal for us in so many ways. And I want you to know that you're not alone in that. In the sense that I have worked with people, I know this journey. I know the pain that comes with it. Affairs can often reflect our deepest longings, and they become part of the most painful betrayals that happen. And we don't want to get washed away into shame, but instead, how do we then heal and move forward with the decision we are choosing today? Okay, let's wrap up with a few questions I have for you to explore. I have two questions that I want you to explore within yourself. This is for anybody, whether you've been going through this, whether you've been through this before, or you're actively going through this, or you're curious about what's going on in your own relationship. Here's two questions I want you to answer today. One, what am I craving in my relationship? I want you to be so deeply honest with yourself. What am I craving in my relationship? The second piece is what am I craving within myself? Spend some time reflecting on it, write it down, and find a way to communicate that to your partner. And maybe even before you communicate to them, maybe you start thinking about how do I make that happen? What would that look like if I were actually bringing this into my life? And I want you to know that whatever those answers are, now that you've identified them, the question is what am I going to do to try to get them to be met? Because this is what relationships are all about. It's about identifying our inside stuff, what it is that we crave and long for, and then bringing it to our partners to find a way to co create it. Not in the way of criticizing them or defending them or defensiveness towards them rather, but in a way of helping them to understand our truth inside of us. All right, I'm so glad you joined me here. 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Stars and I will see you next time. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purpose purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. Take good care of you.

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