The Hidden Stories Creating Conflict in Your Relationship

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, This is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. Greg, there's something that I ask all of my clients and including my community members here when they're upset.

Which is?

I say, how much of what's happening in your mind, the stories you're telling yourself, the assumptions you're making, how much of that do you actually share with your partner?

And the answer is?

And nobody says, why share all of it?

Of course.

Which is really interesting because then what we're doing is we're spending all of this time in our minds. And when I'm working with clients, I call it like our monkey mind where it just chatters all day long, which is true. We have something like 40,000 to 50,000 thoughts a day, which is crazy. But we spend so much time having this entire fight inside of our minds. And guess what happens?

Nothing.

Well, nothing productive. But instead, we end up reacting to that. We end up reacting to the story inside of us and not the person in front of us.

So not the person or not the reality, or is that kind of the same?

Well, the same in a way.

Right.

Because what's actually happening in front of you and what you know about your partner, but instead it's all of these stories and narratives that you have inside.

So you're reacting to the past instead of the present in a sense.

Maybe. It might be the past, but it could also be the things that have happened right now, but are all based on stories inside of us. And I think the really interesting piece around this is I think for so many of us, there's this desire that our partner could just understand us better. I hear this regularly. My partner should just know. Or we've been together for 15 years, my partner should know what my needs are. And we can't. The way out of this is not to become a better mind reader.

Right.

It's not—

They don't exist.

No, it's not to become a better guesser of what your partner is thinking and experiencing and needing. The way through that is actually what we're gonna talk about today, which I think this is a very powerful conversation in terms of what happens inside your relationship, what's keeping you stuck. But the way out is actually something even smaller And it's also something braver.

Hmm, I'll need this.

Because you get stuck in your stories?

Yeah.

Is there an example that comes to mind immediately?

Not specifically. Maybe I can just share like the feeling. I think where I get stuck is your reaction is going to be negative. I mean, the classic example for us is when I—

Which is last week's podcast episode, by the way.

Which is when I wanna go dirt biking.

Mm.

Right?

Oh, this is such a good example.

Right? Because it takes a lot of time. All my hobbies take a lot of time. It's getting easier as the kids get older.

However, it's been a long 11 years. It's not that bad.

Okay.

Keep going.

So every time you come to me, so my assumption is based on, it's a vicious circle. Cause in the past I've asked at last minute many times and gotten not the reaction I hope to, or not the answer, or we couldn't come to the agreement that I had hoped to, but it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Young kids and you're asked to do something huge at the last minute isn't necessarily going to get the result you want. So that kind of, feeds in this narrative or the story that when it comes to this specific ask or topic, that I'm gonna get instant pushback. Mm. Even if I do it in a more thoughtful, proactive approach.

Right. Okay. So you have a story in your head already about how I'm going to respond to your ask.

Correct.

And this is where our negative cycle can actually take over because then I feel that's not fair to me. You're not giving me a chance. It stirs up all of my stuff. This is exactly the cycle that teach in Lesson 3 in Be Connected. You know I've referred to this lesson all the time because it's such a foundational piece of what we need to be doing in relationships. So if you're inside Be Connected, that's Lesson 3, you'll walk through what your negative cycle actually looks like. I give you all the questions to do it as if you are working through me with that. But here's what we need to recognize. We need to recognize the loop that we all get stuck in. We all do this. This is not just an us thing. It's not just— if you're listening, nodding along thinking, oh yeah, the stories are so strong, it's not just you. Yeah. Humans do this. So there's oftentimes some kind of neutral trigger in the everyday moment. So for you, you bring up the dirt biking example, which is a great example. But even if we go smaller than that, it could be a sigh, it could be an eye roll.

So why are those neutral though?

Because what does it mean when you're doing it? If you're sighing, are you just—

It actually doesn't mean— I see what you're saying. It actually doesn't really mean anything.

It's just— It might not. That's the piece, right? So maybe you're sitting at the table quiet. Maybe sometimes when we're driving, you do this hand thing.

It's like this for people watching on YouTube.

Yeah, it's just like a little flick.

I was gonna say, fuck.

I don't think you know you do it.

Oh, I do.

And then for me though, I go into immediately of like, what are you upset about? What have I missed now? And what have I done wrong? But what happens next then And we're not, we're not doing a nervous system episode, but of course I always bring in the nervous system is, and for many people who listen regularly, hi, I love that you've clicked play and I'm so grateful for you joined. Don't forget to leave a review because that helps the podcast. Had to plug that there. Okay. So your nervous system reacts and we know story follows state. And so your body then reacts really quickly to that neutral trigger that then just as fast activates the stories. Sometimes so much that we don't even know the story is being told.

Flush that out.

The story can sometimes sound like, he's annoyed with me, he's upset with me, I've done something wrong, or here we go again, she's gonna tell me what I'm doing wrong this time.

I love Dr. Tracy Dalgleish.

Here we go again, I can never do enough, I can't get it right, right? Like there's this story that shows up. And then the next piece is actually where it gets really tricky. Because then you are reacting to the story inside of you and not to what's actually happening in front of you. So you might get sharp. I go sharp.

Yep.

You go quiet.

Yep.

Maybe someone gets cold or defensive, and the argument that you start having is actually something that started long before the words even came out of your mouth. I have a perfect example of when this happened between you and I. And if you want to talk about a neutral trigger, this was completely neutral. There was—

I'm on eggshells.

No, it's neutral. Okay. There was this free toy that my son got from camp and it was one of those things that stick to the wall. Don't you just love summer camps and how you sign up for them like 8 months in advance? Okay. So here we go. So he comes home after having all the tickets and is excited to buy this. And this happened, gosh, years ago and we just have not done the thing. So then one day in his room, he throws it up to the ceiling. Of course, you're a child. You're going to throw it up to the ceiling and it leaves this awful red mark. And I tried several times with a magic eraser, like those things will get anything off and it didn't work. So we finally decide I'm going to paint his ceiling. And so I could totally sidestep to another topic about the negative attribution error. Cause inside my head while I was painting—

Slow down, slow down.

Okay. Sorry. My brain's going really fast. Okay, fine. I won't go there.

You're getting way ahead of us laypeople.

Okay.

Stick to your example.

Back on track. So as I'm painting, I start— so painting is the neutral trigger. And then I'm in a fight with Greg in my head.

In your head.

In my head. And I'm ready, I am bracing in my body for you to come home. He wasn't home. For you to come home and say, "You didn't paint it right." 'Your strokes weren't long enough. You didn't have enough paint on the roller.' I'm not a professional painter, by the way. We have painted every single room in this house.

No, I know.

And I remember early days in our marriage when we first bought the home and we were painting and I don't know, I must have been going left and right.

Probably.

And you had corrected me. And then I think there was maybe one time where you were frustrated with me and it came out a little sharp. And anyway, so the story starts to build. So I was in a fight with you, but the entire time though, is I'm actually not sharing the deeper thing. I'm not even accessing the deeper thing. And so what ends up happening in those moments when we get stuck in our stories, in our monkey minds, then we become two people because it's not just me that does it. You are in it too. If you come home in that moment and I'm short and you're like, "Hey, great paint job." I'm like, "Yeah, thanks." Then you're in your story. "Oh, what's her problem? I'm not doing enough of it." Right?

Totally.

Two stories, two people. One room, one experience. And I say this to couples regularly because it's so easy to get stuck in our perceptions. And we will honestly, couples will spend an entire hour if I let them with our time together arguing about, from my experience, and your experience is valid to you. Your feelings are real, but there are always three experiences: yours, mine, and what actually happened.

Interesting.

And really, if we get stuck in arguing from that place, we just don't move forward.

Yeah. It's a loop.

It is a vicious, vicious loop. Okay. Let's talk about why we do this because everybody does it. And I think we have to understand first that stories protect us.

How so?

They—

It like allows us to organize our thoughts in our brain in a way? It's almost like a stereotype, like it gives us a mental model.

Yes, absolutely. Am I going to be okay in this moment or not? And the stereotypes in our brains are there because it helps our brains to work faster. So the stories are fast. And in some ways almost, and this is the tricky piece about anxiety, is that it does lead us looping to prepare us for the worst case scenario. So we never actually then live in the moment, but it's this false sense of safety. I think that's the biggest piece that we have to recognize is our stories are predictable, and they're there to protect us. It's a false sense though.

So like, not knowing is the uncomfortable piece. So we just— the worst version of whatever is something solid that we can understand and kind of organize around.

And Isn't it easier? If you think about it, it's easy in the short term to think about the negative and prepare yourself for that than to have to sit in uncertainty and not knowing.

100%.

Right.

Because it's tangible. The negative is tangible. Uncertainty is just what it is. You don't know.

And it's such a counterintuitive piece, but in our safest romantic relationships, we do actually want to prepare for the worst thing, which is kind of—

Kind of backwards. It is. Kind of unfortunate.

But that's just what we do.

We're humans, yeah.

And in there, I think we have to recognize as well that the negative always sticks to us. The positive just slides right off. So you have told me many times all of the things I've done quite well. And isn't it funny, ironic, interesting that my brain immediately goes to that one time that you corrected my painting?

Yeah.

Which—

I think it makes sense. I mean, I think people can relate to that. Our brains do that.

Yes. Okay.

The other why, why do we do this is that the story is old and it's often not even about our partners.

That's kind of what I was getting at earlier. This one kind of resonates with me because you're leaning on the past.

Well, so that is interesting.

So—

It's not the most up-to-date data.

100%. And you have to be willing to update your data. And actually someone sent me this DM recently saying, You know, I, I say something and then my partner's actually surprised that I have offered a supportive response.

They haven't updated their script. We talked about this before, but yeah.

For people who haven't heard you say it, talk about that. Is it the filing cabinet analogy that you've given before?

I don't know if it was that specific. I think it's just this idea that I think like what we're talking about today, we hold narrative scripts of our partner, of our work, of anything in our life. But if we don't update what's happening with our partner, how they've evolved, changed thoughts, right? We're just— we're leaning on old information. I think that's what you're saying in this example. Yeah.

I did a beautiful workshop this past week, and a brave attendee shared her story, and it is such a good example around this. It was actually around setting boundaries, and she said how setting boundaries just feels so dangerous because she grew up in an abusive home. And so actually vocalizing her feelings and needs would lead to physical and emotional abuse. And so it's not just that the story is old, it's that the body actually feels those old experiences saying, danger, danger, danger.

Yeah. And the example I'm giving is outside of that extreme, but yeah, I get it.

It's also why I think it's so important that what we're doing today as parents for our children, we recognize that we are constantly giving blueprints for our kids. For what it means to love, what it means to be a self and your own identity. And so if you— so again, we're saying, why do we make up stories about our partners? Well, the story is old. So if you're a child and you sit at the dinner table and every night your parent comes home and says, someone in a blue car cut me off today, everybody's always cutting me off. Guess what that child learns?

Everyone can't drive.

Well, more so everyone is out to get you.

Right.

That's right. And so when I was thinking even of the painting example, if I make this personal about me, I can't remember how you've described the differences of our families growing up, but in my family, pens always went back to where the pens go.

Yeah, high order versus—

High order.

Lower order.

And so in a high order home, I learned to do things properly. I'm using quotation marks for those listening, properly. There was a correct, and you know, my mom has taught me a wonderful way to fold towels. As a kid though, I couldn't get it. And there's a correct way to do it.

Right.

Right, so that high order then is that old story for me that I lean into automatically if I'm doing something. Okay. Third reason why we do this, because sharing the underneath stuff is exposing and incredibly hard. So I'll back up. When we get into this loop, what we are not doing is we're not talking about the deeper painful stuff that's actually happening inside of us. So we say things like, "Oh, you're impossible," or, "I can never get it right with you." But what's actually underneath that for so many of us are fears and longings and needs.

Yeah, it's way easier for us to just say that. It's that idea of putting you versus me and what I'm feeling, right? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It's so much easier to project— I'll use that word— put it outward onto the other person rather than having to sit in what's actually happening for me. Okay. I want to do some reframes before we move forward in terms of what you can actually do. But if you are already nodding along saying, okay, I do this, I think this is something that gets me stuck in our relationship, or maybe it's even reminding you of something that your partner does, I have a free resource for you. It's actually one of my favorite ones. It's to help you get unstuck from those stories. These are 10 questions I regularly ask my clients that you can use to get unstuck from that, to challenge your assumptions and perceptions. Yes, that sounds so therapy. Challenge your assumptions and perceptions. In fact, I think like I finished during my PhD, there was a CBT book, cognitive behavioral therapy, and there's a handout, how to challenge your assumptions. In essence, I'm giving you 10 questions to start poking holes in the stories that you commonly get stuck in. I love that one.

That's a much more succinct way of saying it.

Mm-hmm. Okay, so here are some reframes. You're in a relationship with your story.

Totally.

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah, it's so fucking true.

I need that to land. You are in a relationship with your story. And repair can actually only come from being with the person. You can't heal—

Repair the story?

No, you can't heal and repair the story. It's one-sided. It's a loop in there. I mean, that's the self-work for sure. But when I think about, you know—

Yeah, you can't repair a ChatGPT, by the way.

No, you cannot.

Well, maybe you can, but it doesn't—

We should test that one day.

It doesn't give you— I'm sure you can, but it doesn't—

Okay.

I digress.

So that's a really interesting thing to let that land. Wow. How much of my relationship has been guided by this story?

Okay, then probably more than you're willing to admit.

100%.

For most of us.

Well, let's go back to your dirt bike example. Yes. I didn't wear my beta shirt today. Beta. Isn't it? Isn't it interesting, though, that the number of times that you might have missed going dirt biking?

Yeah, that sucks.

Because you are dating your story. You're in the relationship of the story of me.

And I think— And she's unfaithful.

Your story is. Yes, that's what I mean. She's not a good narrator. And my dirt bike. Narrator. Oh, that's a tough one. Okay, so another reframe I think is so important, and this is just at the heart of what we do with couples, which is the cycle is the problem. It's not the other person. It's what's happening between you two. And that's this reframe of it's not you versus me, it's us against the problem.

Shoulder to shoulder with the problem in front of you. I mean, if there's anything that I've ever learned from you and this work that you do, it's probably this. If I could distill it down into like the one thing, if there's one thing people could do is like, is to look at the cycle and the dynamic, like kind of out in front of them as teammates. Easier said than done. Don't get me wrong, but—

Absolutely. But it reminds me of what I do with people in therapy. So when I take this mug, so I'll show people my mug in my therapy room and I'm saying, okay, so look at my mug. So for people who are watching YouTube, um, they can see it, but for people who are not, you're just looking at this white, like it's a, it looks like a vase almost. It's just this casing, right? So from your perception, it's just white. There's no handle. That's your perception. My perception actually though is I have the handle there. The handle's right there. So I know it's a coffee mug. It's defining a mug, right?

Right.

But it could be a vase to you. You don't know. But then when I rotate the object, you then get more information. And I love that analogy of if there's a mug in front of you, how do you rotate it to understand what it's actually about, to have a full understanding. So yeah, that, that's this idea of tackling the cycle.

For those of us who are visual learners too, like I think that idea of like something in front of you, you side by side, like the, the imagery and analogies you can use are pretty, pretty powerful.

Mm-hmm.

Because maybe some of the dudes listening that like lands better. They work in teams, they, you know what I mean? Like there's a, it kind of makes sense intellectually.

Mm-hmm. When we think about the boardroom, you're looking up at a board and there's information presented on there. So you're all facing that problem that's put up there. Okay. The last one, just this reframe is I think it's really important to understand that that story you're telling yourself is protecting you and it's protecting you from sharing the deeper, harder emotions. And I think what we really need to understand in relationships is we wear armor. That armor comes in all different forms. It comes in defensiveness, it comes in overjustification, it comes in a abandoning ourselves or overexplaining or criticisms. And that right there is you armoring up to not let the other person in. Relationships are hard and vulnerable. And when I put the armor down, then I can share the hard thing with you.

Likewise.

You didn't catch what I did with the paint thing until I told you afterwards.

No, I didn't.

So Greg didn't know. Greg didn't know I was in that story of—

what's he gonna say? Sometimes it's on your face, but not always.

I have a very expressive face. So I was in the story painting my son's room, the ceiling. And then I think you— did you— were we texting back and forth about an errand? And then I said to Greg, "I'm afraid I'm not doing a good job." That was my deeper feeling. I'm afraid. And I didn't say, I'm afraid you'll be mad at me. I didn't make it about him. I made it completely about me. I'm afraid I am failing this project, or I'm messing it up, or, you know, really I was afraid that I'd have to like spend all this time and go back and do it again because I wasn't doing it right. That was my stuff. And when I labeled that to you, Greg actually— and I don't think you realized you did it— but he actually caught the bit and he said, you're doing a great job. I just know you are. Or you said something like, it's going to be great. And it was something so small. So you weren't like, well, don't forget— because you could have easily stopped and said, make sure you have enough paint on the roller, make sure you're going in long strokes, make sure you're going straight.

Assuming that's correct.

But yes, sure, we're not experts in painting. But you could have done all those things, but instead you just saw the emotion. And I think that's the other thing too that a lot of people miss is that when someone actually shares the deeper thing, which a lot of people do start out doing earlier in the relationship, but then lose doing it over time because of the feedback and the behavior we learn, right? So I'm, if you every time meet my softer, deeper emotion with criticism, fixing, explanation, problem solving, guess what I learn about sharing my deeper, harder emotion? I don't want to share it with you because it's met with fixing all the time.

Yeah.

But you met it. So I thought that was interesting.

Well, what I was gonna say though too is like, I think the takeaway, particularly for someone who leans a bit defensive, is like when you focus on you, and in this case you were focusing on you, you weren't saying, don't judge me, or like, I'm doing the best I can or something. It was just focusing on yourself and what you're feeling. And I know for me, when I'm able to do that, that makes a big difference. But it's not, it's hard. It doesn't come intuitively.

Well, I think that's the piece too, what that we're saying is the story is actually you focusing outward.

You're—

it's about you placed onto the other person rather than making it all about us. Not in like some weird selfish way, but in the way of like, what am I actually experiencing here? So what are we actually going to do to deal with these stories? The first thing is to catch it. You always have to catch yourself and call it a story. I love these 5 words, the story I'm telling myself. What it also does in that moment—

You're labeling it. Yeah.

Right. So instead of it spinning in your mind, I imagine sometimes like I'm plucking the thought out of my head and holding it in front of me and saying, ooh, the story I'm telling myself. And when I do that, I don't judge it. I don't criticize myself. "Oh, Tracy, you're having that story again. Come on. How many times are you going to have that same old story? How infuriating." But I just notice and observe.

Because you're saying it's not fixing it, you're just catching it, observing it, recognizing it's happening, something like that.

Yeah. You've got to catch it and you just have to slow it down. What's the story? Which I know that's Your hard thing. Okay, what do we do next? We want to say the soft thing, not the sharp thing. So oftentimes, if that story is producing some kind of reaction inside of you, you're not yet ready to share it. If you feel heat, if you feel tension, right? Because those are the emotions that are taking over. Your nervous system has taken over, and you're not yet ready to share it with the other person.

Okay, but just to push back on that a little bit, like that Sounds like it takes a high level of self-awareness and being able to slow down in the moment. And I think for a lot of us, how do you do that?

You have to slow down in the moment. Not every thought has to be an outside thought. Not everything that comes to your tongue has to come out of your mouth, which is really hard because that sometimes tells me there's this belief that if I don't say it right now, then it's not valid and I will not be seen and I will not be believed. Every thing you can return to. It's not instant and immediate. When I think of that, I think about a child.

Yeah. That is something I struggle with. And like, cuz you feel like you gotta get it out in the moment. Like you gotta get your piece in.

And I think— How's that working for you?

Not always great, but it's this idea that like intellectually, like if I know I can come back to it and say it later in a more calm way, it might actually have a better outcome than in the moment. But fuck, it's hard to do.

It's really hard. It's, And it's hard for me too. It's something that is practiced. And I think people have to give themselves that permission.

We make that mistake over and over again.

Absolutely. And maybe even too. So as I hear you say that, I think, okay, so what if then you can, you can walk around it? So I always love this idea about walking around something. And so you can say to your partner, ooh, I'm getting really stuck in some hot stories right now. I know that these are not productive and I'm going to take a beat. So then you know where I'm at. And then I might even add something like, because I think this one is just so powerful. I'm having hard feelings. I'm not mad at you. I'm having to work through some of my feelings first before I come to you. And I think we've even done that a few times and that's uncomfortable.

Yeah, I don't know a lot of dudes listening to that are going to speak like that, but—

Okay, that's fine.

I get what you mean.

What would you do then?

I just think it could be like, okay, I need some time.

Cool, take some time, right? But that is so much more powerful than reacting on the, oh, for fuck's sake, it's like I can never get anything right with you. That's the reaction to the story. So this is about sharing the deeper thing then. And in order to do that, then you have to ask yourself, what is underneath this? If it's anger, frustration, resentment, if it's a story that feels so hot for you Slowing down, taking a breath. What's this really about? Sometimes, you know, right away, sometimes you need to take some time and that's okay too. Because if you're flooded, it's hard to know what it's really about. And also too, I think I want to add here, if you're stuck in your stories, I think this is also where Dr. Tracy Dalgleish AI inside Be Connected can be helpful.

Very much so.

Because you can poke holes at some of these things. And you can even say to Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, I'm getting stuck in this story. Can you help me with this? And actually, I know one of our members recently is able to recognize the anxious attachment loop that they get in. And they've been asking for different things. What can I do in this moment? And it's almost that instant moment where it's the, okay, can you give me a regulation strategy? And one of those strategies come out. So if you don't know about Be Connected, it's my online program. I've been running it since early days, 2020.

Yeah.

And we have watched it shape and form and reach thousands of people, which is so cool. And then also to see the addition of Dr. Tracy AI. Don't go to just some random chatbot. This is trained on my work, trained on my voice, trained on how I process and work through things like my coaching calls. It's incredible. And then of course, the other thing inside Be Connected is my coaching calls, which we do once a month. And I love when people show up.

Yeah, because that's the human element. We can't get away from it. We need it more, actually, these days.

We do. And I—

Like, we don't want to talk out of both sides of our mouth, but we kind of have like—

Oh, no, no, both.

The AI tools for when you need it, but then we have the human connection for what's reasonable for the value.

I love those coaching calls. Being on this journey with those members and be connected is incredible. And then when they share their stuck moments and they ask any question— we've worked through moments of infidelity, we've worked through attachment styles, those cycles, in-law stuff. It's—

In-law stuff.

You know, it's just incredible and it's such a cool way to connect with more people. So anyways, I've got the link for Be Connected in the show notes. But the last thing then that you can do specifically with these stories is to trade the certainty that you hold for that story, right? My certainty, the story, the paint is that you are going to tell me what I did wrong. Trade it for one curious question, one question to get you out of your story. So maybe it sounds like, what's actually going on for you right now? Maybe it's even what's actually going on for me. Maybe it's asking your partner, is there something that you haven't shared with me yet? Or I'm missing information. Could you tell me more about that?

Yeah, that's a good one.

That is one that we could benefit using a bit more.

Yeah.

Because you and I, we go fast, especially being in business together. And then parenting—

You go fast.

Sorry, I go fast. Corporately. That's true though. So find a question. And one of the ones we're defaulting to as well is, "Tell me more." Yeah. And it's just the beat so that—

It's a bridge.

Yeah, I love that. It's a bridge so that I'm not spinning in my stories. Instead, I actually have to take a breath and hear more about what you're saying. Is there anything that you want to add around what it means to be stuck in our stories, the stories we tell ourselves, how fast they are?

Well, I mean, I think how fast they are is really key. The older they are, the harder they are to go away.

Mm.

I think getting stuck in this past is hard. And when we know them so well, we get quick with them, right? So to me as a guy, I'm like, how can I update my scripts? How can I update my data points? What I like to use kind of these work analogies, right? So I always wanna be using using the latest model, to borrow a term, right? So, you know, can I take a beat to kind of lean into what the reality is? Yeah, I think it's hard. I mean, the, you know, catching it, naming the story, that's, that's important too.

Mm-hmm.

Cause you're just giving it, you're giving it a label, you're giving it, it's, it's like allowing your brain to organize, right? So you can then take the next step, which I think even doing that inherently slows you down a little bit, right? Cause if you're just like verbal back, like this ping pong, there's no time, right? But if like, okay, what's going on here? That's even giving I need a few moments just to like think about how I'm going to move forward.

I like that you've added that, just in the sense of how do I update my models? Because what, what has worked before isn't necessarily what's going to work today. And I think especially as parents, they need to update those, because the things that led to resentment, frustration, anger, isolation when your kids were newborns and 2-year-olds—

Yeah.

You know, I think of that for us, that's incredibly different today.

Correct.

When they have more autonomy at 9 and 11.

Yeah. What about though, what if it's going the opposite way though? Like we're almost talking about things like they're improving when we say updating our scripts. Like the more, the more recent stuff is better. What if it's going the other way though? I'm sure there's a lot of couples that are actually probably listening to this for a reason or going the opposite way. So the more recent stuff is worse.

Mm-hmm. It is the same thing. It's catching your stories. It's being able to identify what the deeper feeling is and then starting to share those feelings from there. It's the same piece, right?

Yeah.

It's the same action that you want to take, whether you are someone who is feeling more connected as your kids get older, or if you're feeling more disconnected, which is also totally possible because we know the rise of loneliness, not just for individuals but for people who are married, it's, it's a huge issue.

Yeah, I guess I was thinking of it like when I'm updating my model, it's like, oh, I'm going to give them a more positive interpretation, but, but what if it's actually going the wrong way?

Well, okay, so if you are in—

so does it, does it just not matter? You're just— it's still a story.

It's still a story.

You have to take it as a story and like—

100%.

Maybe if it's more important if it's going the wrong wrong direction.

What I think of there is being able to ask yourself, so think of a time. So if you are in that season where you are distressed, it's been maybe 2 years since you've touched each other, you are fighting every day. Actually, you've stopped fighting because you're so burned out. Then think of, like, draw upon examples of connection. Where have you felt connected? What have you done then? And how could you start bringing that more in? But again, it is the story. We're, like, addressing this sliver in here, I know. Of a bigger picture, because it then still requires you to turn to your partner. So I'll paint out the image because I like to do scenes. It's like you both flop on the couch. You've done all your chores. Maybe you felt angry because you're in the kitchen and he's already sitting on the couch scrolling, watching TV. You wipe down the kitchen, you sit down beside him, he doesn't acknowledge you. And your story right there is, he doesn't even care about me.

Yeah, or he does nothing.

You have to start bringing that forward in the sense of what's this actually about for me. So instead of focusing on you, he doesn't care, I have to focus on me. I need, I want, I wish someone would clean the kitchen with me and we could put on music and play together. Or I need attention when I walk into the room, and I can share that with you then.

Interesting.

Yeah. Do you think there's— I don't, I gotta tread lightly on this a little bit, but do you think there's almost like—

I'm sorry, I'm chuckling. I'm looking at my watch thinking I have to get to the clinic soon, and you're like going into deep dive questions. I love it. Keep going. I have time, but I'm just chuckling because you saw me look at my watch.

Maybe they want to hear what I have to say.

They do. They like you. Don't forget to leave a review.

But there's almost like lower accountability. So what you're asking people to do is to like reflect on themselves deeper.

And to not stay stuck pointing fingers.

Right. But I think in our today's zeitgeist, it's easy to just push outward. We're just consuming everything that everyone else is doing, and then comparison, and then in this comparison loop. So like, I do wonder if it's like—

Are talking about comparisons or pointing outwards?

I guess I'm using that as an example of like, we're so how we consume our life now is so like external. Yeah. That we're now saying, you're now saying, well, you need to like pause and stuck in this story. Like, I imagine that's much harder. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, but like the barrier to people doing this feels higher.

Yeah, it is the willingness to drop your distractions. It is. And I feel this, I'm a creator, so I'm online, I'm on this, I'm on social media, but there are times where I'm like, oh, I just need to put it away and be in my own brain for a bit. I go for walks without anything in my ears just so I can hang out in what's my story, what's running in the background that I haven't even tuned into yet.

Yeah, but I would imagine a lot of people aren't doing that.

Right.

So that's why people are listening and I'm encouraging them to do that. Hang out in your stories. Don't be afraid of your stories.

Okay, that's good.

Right? Don't be afraid of what your brain is saying because that's also not necessarily a truth. Stories are not truths. Feelings are real for you, but they're also not truth. So while I might feel like you don't care about me, that's a story and that's a feeling and it's hard, and that's not a truth. But if you don't slow things down and hang out with that, you are going to be reacting like whack-a-mole or ping pong.

Yeah.

Because you'll be in the loop. You'll just get stuck in the loop.

The doom loop.

And relationships do require presence and being and slowing down. And I think that's really hard in today's world because it's like, what's the next goal? What's the next milestone? I mean, even with the kids, right? Okay. We're not even in summer camp and I'm already thinking about school next year. Why am I thinking about school when they haven't even started summer camp?

Pwnkers.

And the things that I need to buy them for September. Why? Anyways, all that to say— So messed up. Okay, we could keep going. So let me wrap this up.

Yep.

The next time you're in one of these moments, so it's a tense moment, there's feeling inside of you, maybe you feel tense, maybe you feel frustrated or angry, pause for a moment and ask yourself, what's the story that I'm telling myself right here? And then maybe just slowly you can add one more question to that, which is, what am I really afraid of right here? And if you don't like the word afraid, say, what am I really struggling with? So what's the story I'm telling myself? You're taking it and removing it from you as something you can observe and look at and then asking yourself, what's this really about?

Is it about asking, what do I need?

It can be. Yeah. What do I need? I like to go to the emotion first. And the reason for that is because emotion comes from the Latin word to move. So when you can identify your emotions, it feels like someone has given you a life raft. And then it moves you towards asking what you need. Emotions lead to needs. All right, thank you for joining us here, Greg. Thank you for clicking play. I'm so glad that you join us here on the podcast. If you have a question for us, I've got the link for you in the show notes. Send us your question, send us as much detail as you want to get a good answer, a full answer. We should do it together. You should help me answer some of these questions. I know people would love to hear your side on them. Okay, so if you're listening Now you have to go and send us a question because we'd love to hear from you. And I'm just grateful that you're here. So if anything resonated from today, one of the most and best ways you can support us is by sharing this podcast, clicking the stars, leaving a review. We read all of them and we're so grateful for you. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. See you next time.