Where Did His Friends Go? Male Friendships, and Modern Relationships

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert and your go to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries in laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel Good. Hey, it's Dr. Tracy, thanks for clicking Play today. And we are talking all about friendships and nurturing your own independence. And specifically, Greg and I are going to be talking about male friendships because this is something that has been showing up in our relationship, for sure, but also something that shows up in our community and with clients, with people I've been working with for nearly 20 years. And it's just such an interesting conversation. And I really thought there was no one else better to have this conversation with, and especially because knowing it's something that you and I have been trying to tackle and navigating through seasons together.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's something we've been working through, struggling with. You know, I'm in my mid-40s, for sure. It's a challenge. And then I think separate, apart from that, it's something we're seeing kind of in the community, and just you and I have been talking a lot about, so we thought, why not let's throw it in the pod and see. See what people think. I mean, we have some thoughts on kind of what's happening in the ether, and we'll explore that today, I think.

Yeah. And we put up a box on social media, so we got all kinds of really great responses that we'll jump into in a moment. But first, I brought forward something we haven't done in the last few episodes together. One of our Questions from my 100 questions to deepen your intimacy. It is one of our favorite guides that we have. I guess you can't call it a guide, but it's a favorite reading resource that we have for you to help you step out of that everyday mundane. How was your day? What happened at work? And you and I know we get stuck in that sometimes.

100%. Yeah. These questions are a little bit more thoughtful and just makes it easy. And really, it allows you to kind of go deeper. And what I love about it is not just the answer to the question, but the memories they evoke and the stories and the conversations that follow from it. Because it's kind of, where does it take you? Oh, do you remember this? This? And maybe chances are, when you ask me that question, that might happen right now. So here we go.

Okay, here is the question. Greg does not know ahead of time what the question is, so I want you to answer this one. What were your first thoughts of me when we first met?

Oh, whoa. Heavy.

We're going way back.

Okay, so heavy.

That one's heavy.

No, not heavy. So my mind immediately goes to, is there the physical piece or What I think of intellectually and the truth is that initial meeting is physical. So I distinctly remember the color of your eyes. Your beautiful blue eyes are very, very distinct, particularly in the. That black light of the bar. You know, they really popped. So that, to be honest with you, that's the physical piece. And I think it's important. That's often how these things first start. And then as I got to know you, you know, what was really cool to me is like kind of how driven you were where you're at in your career at such a young age. And like, how cool is that? Um, yeah. And then here we are.

I feel like we should contextualize it. Greg and I met in a bar, very serendipitously, one night, and I had just moved to Ottawa. This was almost 20 years ago, love. Like, we're. We're almost at that mark, which is wild. So I had just turned 22. I was fast tracking high school and undergrad and then moved right into my PhD. I was the youngest in the program. I didn't know a lot of people. And it was. Yeah, it was a really cool meeting with you that night. And we and Greg lived across the country, which is also something really cool of our story.

Yeah. I was with a friend this week and we were talking kind of at origin stories and I kind of reflected on like, you know, we both have kids now and like, how, how like one small decision could change your trajectory so much. Like, I knew that night, for example, you were already out and kind of came out again.

Yeah. So it would have already done our.

Post school, like, grab a beer kind of thing.

We grabbed a beer and then I went back to my bachelor apartment and my friend was like, hey, my roommate's offering to buy us another drink.

Let's go out.

I'm thinking, oh, no. Like, yeah, I'm tired. We have early 9am module tomorrow where we're doing skits and.

Yeah. So it's. It was just kind of cool to reflect on.

I love that on that.

So anyways, holding the mirror.

Yes.

What about you?

So it is a very physical thing. And I kind of chuckle at this because it was your shoes.

Oh, God.

I remember noticing your shoes. And I think, like, the funny thing is we think about people going up to bars now and the younger crew going up. They're in their sneakers.

Yeah. They're in their J's or whatever.

Yeah.

You were not in sneakers.

No. I think times have changed. It's gotten more casual. Just fly for one flight and you'll see that. But.

But you were. You were in the bar wearing, like, this really beautif. You always had. Always had great jeans, and you were just dressed well. You had this trench coat. I was like, oh, who's this guy? All figured out, like, you know. And then the conversation from there, of.

Course, also something really important.

But I love this question because it's not this mundane talking about the Today piece. It's about our origin story. And the Gottmans talk about this in the sense of their love maps. And when you can really solidify your origin story, when you can go back and talk about the moments where you've grown together, things that excited you, or even your hopes, dreams, and wishes for the future that helps carry you through those hard moments. Those are the connective points that we want.

Yeah. So this is a great example to my point, because it's not even the answer, which is cool because it goes down memory lane, but it also just prompted me to recall a conversation I just had on Friday.

Yeah.

I was thinking.

You didn't tell me that.

Right. So that now breeds a point of connection. Right. So. Oh, this ties into this. And like, I think these days with our phones and stuff, it's almost. We just kind of get in our silos so quickly, even with our partners. So, like.

Yeah, that's why I love those questions. Just, they're so solid. We've been using them for a while. I know so many people in the community have as well. So I've got the link in the show notes if you would like to check them out. All right. Male friendships. So specifically today, we want to focus on the male perspective.

Yeah.

Because it's something that I think shows up for a lot of people. It's a struggle. And it is also a really healthy part of a relationship where you want to nurture. And I say this to people all the time, that true intimacy in a relationship comes from intimacy within yourself. And when you can know yourself and your desires and you fill that up and then you go and hang out with friends, like, all of that comes together. And so I posted this on social media and we got lots of responses from people.

Yeah.

So this is not just a Greg and Tracy thing. This is a, like, wow, look at this. Really interesting.

Yeah. I think you were just curious what people's experience was.

Totally. So there seemed to be, in the responses, kind of these two groups. It was a dichotomy. And you had read through the response.

Yeah. There's two camps. Yeah.

So on one camp, it was the. Yes. It's there. Maybe it's through a sport event or they have their solid group of friends.

I support it totally.

That was there, but then there was another group and it was a really large response, I think in this one in the sense of that's not something that he has or I wish that. And I was specifically asking for husbands. So your male partner and a lot of people said it's not something that he nurtures. He doesn't see the point. He feels guilty. Like, do you remember what else came up?

He's defaulting to the kids.

Yes, that was another one. Defaults to the kids or it's through my friends.

Yeah, that's the other theme we'll touch on.

And then there was kind of the tangential, which is the yes, but I don't like that group of friends, which could also be, I think be tricky in the dynamic.

Yeah. Your husband's got his single buddy, of course.

Right. Your different life stages, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. It just means I know there is a different life season.

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I can think of that one as an example of like if your partner has that one group of friends where, say, for example, they all go out binge drinking every Saturday night, but then you're left with the kids on Sunday morning. Like that's a clash in your lifestyle in some ways. Anyways, I digress. So I thought, you being our male expert here, I thought I would just open the conversation and start with, what's your experience even as a parent, as a partner, as a man and making friendships right now?

Well, I think it's something I've struggled with too. And I think we've struggled with it is like coming up with a framework or a schedule where we can both kind of have our own time. I think there's probably some experiences early on that probably skewed it. You know, we were talking about the story about me golfing. And, you know, golf takes a long time. My hobbies take a long time. And that one experience we're just.

Do you want me to tell a story?

Well, sure.

So I remember being postpartum, it was about two months postpartum, and you had shifted your work schedule, which I'm grateful that you could do this. And then you shifted it so you can go golfing with your friends. And golf is very much the camaraderie thing. And something that I love about you as well is you, you can golf with anybody and you always come back with cool stories, even if it wasn't a friend. Yeah, I love that about it. Except I also don't love that golf is six hours or more. And that's something that I struggle with. And of course postpartum. So here I am, you leave at 7am I'm two months, you know, naps, not sleeping well, feeding all the things.

Right.

And so then I get a text from Greg, we agree. Like, we agree. Yes, go golfing with your friends. Yes, I know it's important. Yes, I want you to do that. And then I get this text at like, gosh, 4:34 o' clock maybe.

Probably. Yeah.

And it's hey, people in front of us are really slow golfs going a lot slower than I thought it would be.

True story.

Okay, well that's painful because I also know, guess what, it's a 40 minute drive, maybe 30. And then at 5 5pm I get the second text that says hey, stuck.

In construction Ottawa, man, it's crazy.

And I remember little Amen was on the floor and he's on his like baby mat and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's like nap number 500 for the day that I have to get ready and my body is just absolutely exhausted. And then you get home at 6:00', clock, maybe even 6:30 and I'm like just depleted. And it was so hard because that's such a special season. But I also think that when I look back and the things that you and I didn't know, like you don't know what you don't know until you're living it. And I think in that moment you learn something about what it meant to do, the things you love to do.

Explain that.

I think you had this learned moment of guilt when I leave. It's an inconvenience. And look at my wife crumbling in front of me.

Yeah.

Look at the mother to my child crumbling in front of me when I leave. And so I think you as like one group of camp of men internalize this guilt that now here we are in many different seasons and evolutions. And I think today sometimes it's still hard when that moment for you to say hey, I'm going to go and do the thing.

Yeah. I think it's many men and I think there's a variety of reasons.

What do you think one of those reasons are? Hit me with your like pressing point that you've been thinking about on this.

Some people off maybe. I think that there's been an overcorrection in the discourse of the mental load and I think the pendulum has swung a little bit too far. I think the mental load is real. I think it's something that's got to be accounted for. But I just think there's been a shift in the power and just the way relationships have kind of unfolded. I mean particularly like women have more power financially, more power professionally and that's good.

It's good and needed.

It's good and needed. There's just kind of a both and, and I just think the, there may be like many things that we're all experiencing societally right now. You know, it's amplified, extremely high on social. And the pendulum, I think, has just swung too far. And I think you've got a subset of men, not all, let me be clear, that have just created this huge deference to their partner and to parenting. And I think it ties into, with the information overload on parenting too, which is just, I think, paralyzing. And this, you know, gentle slash, permissive parenting has almost become permissive partnering. And it's like, well, I gotta do all this stuff to keep my wife happy and do all the thing with the kids, and it's just overcorrected itself. And I think there's just gotta be this gentle swing back to kind of an equilibrium where both partners can have their needs met. But I'm not sure it's working out how it was intended.

I really appreciate you sharing that and I know it's a conversation that you and I have together. I know we also had it with friends recently where I said to the wife, I said, okay, plug your ears because I'm telling your husband that he has to go and do things for himself once a week.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's even advice I give to my clients, which is, you know, and it's something you and I have tried many times. We're not successful every week, and it ebbs and flows. But the advice is you go out on Monday nights and I go out on Wednesday nights. Right. Like, like. Or vice versa. But once a week, each person needs to go out. And I could talk about the various reasons why. But just this piece here, Greg, that I really appreciate you calling out around the mental load, because I, I see this challenge and it's like, it's the yes end. It is very real that women work 90 hours between paid and unpaid labor. That's. It's research based.

Okay.

So we know that.

I get that.

And I also understand that you as a man carry your own mental load and it looks different than mine.

Yeah.

And so I'm constantly like, in those moments where I'm in the household. What was I doing recently? I can't remember, but it was something very, like, nuanced. And I had the thought, greg doesn't do this. And I like, felt that, like, resentment of, like, why do I have to do this?

But then you go on your phone and get just totally mirrored to you that you're righteous to feel that way. And I just think that erodes a lot of us.

100. And the piece, though, that I think is where we have swung too far is then we have all then siloed off into our individuality and lost the interconnectedness. Because yes, the mental load is real. Yes, you both carry heavy things. Yes, you're both. Whatever that looks like. And I know this is a nuanced conversation because every relationship is going so much context. But the piece that we're missing is that interconnectedness. The how do I then come to you and be with you in this so we can co create and negotiate? Because I don't think that's right for. For you to then over compensate and then lose your own identity.

Yeah.

At the expense of this. Because relationships outside, like the things you do for yourself, whether it's with friends or it's yourself for both partners, it's so important for you to have those. Because then you come back with good, new, different energy and you bring that into your relationship.

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Just this last week, I was so excited for you to go out.

Yeah, no, like.

Like, even to the point where you woke up and you're like, oh, I don't know. I kind of got a scratchy throat. I was like, absolutely not. Have breakfast first. You can see how you're feeling.

And then I text you that I'm coming home slightly early. Why so early?

Yeah, and. But then you came home with all these stories, experiences, and, like, the filling up of something inside of you that filled me up because when we first met, you were this autonomous individual. You had your own life. And that, like, sparked a connection in me. It drew me to you.

Is that what you mean by. I think I've heard you say this to, like, self intimacy.

Yes.

Self intimacy is the. What do I like? What excites me? What turns me on? What, like what images do I have in my head? Not necessarily about sex, but just even though, like, you know, you're walking down the street and you're like, oh, kind of feel like having a piece of pizza, and then you go and have the pizza and you're. You just sit there and you're like, now I'm in New York City having pizza, and you're like, just take this first bite. And it's just. It's all you. It's nobody else. Nobody else has a need, a want, a desire. It's all you. And, you know, and then it's like, moment to moment with yourself. Because when you can do that, say, even just like, food is one example, but if you can do that with, like, oh, I need to move my body, I'm gonna go for a walk. And you listen to it. You listen to your body, you responded to it and you went and did the thing. Like, that applies to intimacy and sex. Because if we're in the moment in sex, and then I have this urge to, like, do something, and if I'm just like, ah, no, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. Like, then I'm just flatlining our intimacy and getting what I want for pleasure as well.

Right.

So if you know yourself really well, you translate that into desire, arousal with your partner.

And this is part of knowing yourself.

Absolutely.

Because then also too. And it's not just me as a woman, it's you as a man too. What do you want?

Yeah.

What happens for you in the moment?

Yeah, well, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Is this over correction is, I think, kind of emasculating some men, not all. Let me be really clear. Yeah, there's a subset, and I even find myself in there maybe slightly more avoidant, maybe a little shyer. I don't know. There's definitely. There's probably some listeners who are going, no way. My husband does all this stuff. He does whatever he wants, and, like, doesn't apply to you. But there is a cohort here that I think are. The deference is too high. It's emasculating to a degree. It's not to say we're going back to the 50s. I'm not suggesting that, but there's a. There's a balance to be struck in a better way, in my opinion.

I want to share the dirt biking example. Can I do that?

Yeah, for sure.

This was in the summer. And, like, it speaks to our cycle. It speaks to our communication, like, our Own individual stuff. And so Greg came to me and said, I'd like to go dirt biking on Sunday. And I said, okay. And then we left it at that. And you didn't come back to me again until Saturday.

It's my style.

Yes, I call him five to seven business days, we'll come back to it. And so then on Saturday we're out with, we actually were taking the kids somewhere to this like thing to meet up with other friends. And did I say, I think I had said to you, so are you going biking tomorrow? Because I. And here's the thing about partnerships. I know when it's on his mind. I know when he's stewing on it and thinking about it. And that's the piece, right? Because partnerships, if you're not saying something to your partner, believe me, she, he, they already know that you're thinking it and feeling it because that's the mirror neurons. We're connected, we're securely, we're attached in some way. So then I say to him, because I'm waiting, waiting and waiting, when's he going to bring it up? When's he going to bring it up? And so finally I'm like, so are you going biking tomorrow? Would you remember what you said?

No, I don't.

You had said something like, I'd like to go biking tomorrow, but I feel guilty for asking probably. And I said, okay. Greg said, because I don't want you to be upset about this. And I said, right, okay, well first let's acknowledge leaving it till like last minute as a whole other bag.

So that makes you upset about it.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. But then the other piece in there is I said to you, you're right, it does feel uncomfortable for me that tomorrow you will be gone for six hours because, you know, and we don't have to go into this, but like my activities, my activities are like one and a half max, two hours.

Mine are not.

Yours are like full day events. And I remember one time I said to you, I'm like, imagine every Sunday you go dirt biking and every Saturday I go the spa. Because that's the equivalent of the time.

All right, all right, all right, all right.

So. So that's my personal beef about your activities. And I also love and we'll talk about like the group of guys that you have too. And I said, yeah, you know, it would be inconvenient for me and I'm not thrilled that you're going and you're still going to go. And you're like, well, what do you mean? Like, that's not fair. Now I have to sit in this discomfort that you aren't happy that I'm going and I still have to go. And I remember saying, well, that's for you to work out, isn't it?

For sure.

And to go and sit in the discomfort.

Yeah.

Do you remember walking through that experience and when you came home and what you shared with me?

I don't specifically, truthfully, I remember you.

Like I had said, you will have to take your guilt with you.

Yeah.

And you go and you're like, well, that sucks. That's not fair.

Oh, I think I said something because it, like, hinders my ability to be present.

That's what you said.

Which I have to be dirt biking for safety.

And I said, I said, well, that's yours to own and not mine. Because if you're not allowing yourself to be present, I can't control that. But don't ask me to put on a happy face and like, be kind of 1950s whatever, with the wife passing you your lunch bag and saying, bye, bye, my love, I love you. Like, I'm just not that. And I'm not. I'm not mad at you. I don't love the situation.

Well, yeah, because it was last minute.

It was last minute. It's six hours, it's Sunday. It's, you know, I have different ideas, but I also knew it was really important to you. Okay.

Okay.

So then the piece, though, is. Then you came home and I said, so tell me about that guilt that you were carrying so hard that, you know, you wouldn't be able to be present. And you're like, yeah, I was totally present. And I was like, but see, you carried the hard thing with you when you went and did what was important to you.

Yeah.

Okay, So I think something else that we have talked about is the prioritization between relationship, parenting, and individual.

Right.

And this is an exercise I do with my clients. I'll just describe it quickly so listeners, people who are watching can do it as well. So take a piece of paper and fold it in half. And you're going to draw three quadrants, so two lines on the piece of paper and then fold it in half. In each quadrant, I want you to write individual, relationship, family, and what I want you to do in that quadrant. So you do it on one side of the piece of paper and your partner does it on the other side. You don't look at each other's responses. Draw how large of a circle representing how much energy you put into that quadrant. So how much energy into the relationship quadrant, how much energy into the family quadrant, how much energy into the individual? And then your partner does the same. And then I want you to just compare the two. So what's really interesting, and we were talking about this change that I've seen in my practice. So for nearly 20 years, working with couples and individuals, I also work with men individually. And it's been really interesting to see how this starts to change, because I know for certain 15 years ago, here's how stereotypically it would look with a heterosexual couple. The woman would draw her bubbles and the family bubble was huge. It would take up the whole space. Then the couple bubble, you know, second largest individual bubble, very small. And then for the man, we would flip it over and his individual bubble was quite large. Couple bubble was small. Family bubble was probably larger than couple bubble. And it's just an exercise to understand how each of you view where you spend your energy and then to see the disparity. So that's 15 years ago, though. But I think today what I'm seeing with couples is that that family bubble is becoming much bigger. I think a lot of men now are saying, I'm putting all of this time and focus. The kids and family.

Yeah.

And the individual bubble. Not everybody, but there's a group that it's smaller.

Yeah.

And I do think that's problematic because while a lot of my work, especially online, has been about helping women through resentment, I also know that men grow resentful as well when they don't prioritize their own autonomy.

We do, for sure.

And I think you and I have talked about that between us.

For sure. Yeah. And I think we've even experienced it a bit. I also think the flip side to the women's resentment, though, is. Yeah, the men, if they're not finding their own individual voice and self, then they're not going to be present in the relationship or go. More of the resentment.

Yeah.

It all ties together.

It does. It really does. The other thing we were talking about is the convenience of friendships and how it can be tricky with men versus women.

Tell me more.

Well, I think in general, I think women are the social connector, so we will bring things together. When I think of how we get together with other families with their kids, it tends to be the women, the wives coordinating.

I think we were saying, though, is more than the coordination. I think it's the expectation that I'll be friends with your friends, Husbands. Right. And that showed up in the responses online, too.

Yeah, right.

Yep.

And that's interesting though, because it does almost put this like, implicit pressure on a dynamic. And I think there are when it comes to friendships. Let's also just name this piece here because there are so many unspoken expectations and pressures of what adult friendships actually look like.

Yeah.

And the first one I think of even is something that someone had told me early on after I had our, our first is that just because your kids are the same age or your kids are friends doesn't mean you have to be friends with their parents.

Right. But that also goes to your spouse's friends. Friends and their partners.

Oh, of course.

And it gets convenient and it's nice if it works out, but it's not, shouldn't necessarily be a given. I think also there's an element of like your geography in some way. Like, I think there's kind of a couple, like, we live in a town where we. I did not go to school here. I did not grow up here.

Neither did I.

But you went to school here.

I did my PhD here. Which is very different than doing an undergraduate degree.

Fair enough. But there's less connective tissue versus someone who grew up in a certain place who has longstanding relationships, who stays there and fosters, which is amazing, don't get me wrong. But the reality in this day and age is a lot of people aren't necessarily living where they grew up or even went to school. So there's, there's kind of this loss. So then we have these situations with our partners where it becomes easy or, or the expectation is there to just be friends with, with partners. And often it works out really well, but it shouldn't be a given.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm a firm believer that our time is not infinite and that we should be choosing wisely where we spend our time. And it's okay if you don't connect with the dad across the street from you, but I think the piece here, and this is where like the friendships and your independence kind of tying together. Then the next question though, and I know you and I have had this conversation, is around, well, what are you doing then? To do something for yourself?

Right.

You know how I love to problem solve. I'm like, hey, go sign up for tennis lessons. Go take this. Go find men who do like minded.

Things with you who take less than one hour.

Right. Go to the yoga studio. You know, maybe there's a men's yoga session that you could join. But, but I think there's an element in here though, where friendships are so important. Connection with other people matters. And. And I actually noticed that too, in myself is if I only go to yoga classes once a week. And that's the thing, for me, that's missing connection with people. Because the reality is, I mean, for me, I'm not the type of fitness attendee that's there and socializing with people. And I think a byproduct of that is my profession, because I'm usually keeping my head down and trying not to run into clients. And so it's kind of tricky, though, Right. So I can appreciate that on one hand, you go as a function to do something, and then on the other hand, maybe you do make friends by doing something, but they, like, they can kind of go together.

Right.

For sure.

I remember as we were talking about this conversation, you had brought up even our workplaces as part of what's happening.

Yeah, I think. I think what got me thinking about this was Scott Galloway, a while ago, had kind of railed on the work from home being detrimental to the formation of romantic relationships, which I agree with. You know, the reality is people meet at work, and particularly young people aren't having those opportunities. And it just kind of dawned on me that I think the same goes for friendships. Right. So you're not meeting friends at work. You're not problem solving. You're not navigating the dynamics of working with multiple people. If you're working from home a lot, there's also a bit of a loss of storytelling. When you're working with people and stuff's happening, you come home to your spouse and it becomes a connection point. You're also, if you're working from home, one or both in a relationship or working from home, your. Your comparison is now your partner. So it almost creates this extra layer of friction. Right. Versus if you're at the office and Johnny or Judy down the hall is a handful and. Right. It's kind of this.

You come home and you're like, let me tell you all about Judy today.

Yeah. Your circle just gets. Gets much, much smaller. So it's kind of like there's a laptop class, for lack of a better term, that they're missing out compared to. You know, I'm driving by the construction site and there's like a bunch of dudes standing around looking at the hole, and. And, you know, they're shooting the shit, they're connecting, and they're navigating their problem solving. And, you know, they're getting a lot of.

There's a sense of camaraderie, like you're Having to like work together.

And they might not be friends, but I guarantee you some of them probably go fishing together on the weekend because they've formed a friendship doing all this stuff all the time, you know, And I think there's a bit of a loss from the, the work, from home culture.

But so that piece though is. I mean, you think about someone who's been peopling all day long online for eight hours.

Yeah.

And that's the connection to their work. Home people.

Sure.

Then they plug off and it's like, oh, now Dr. Tracy's telling me I have to go and see friends. I've just people eight hours, nine hours. Right. That's exhausting. I can appreciate that sitting in front of clients as well or sometimes doing all of this online stuff. Right. It is then hard to pour that energy outward. And so I think a lot of times, especially around the conversations with boundaries, we often think of the like, where's our nose? I'm allowed to have these boundaries. I'm allowed to say no. It's like, yes. But then also remember, you get energy from in person connecting with people. You get dopamine and serotonin and it's long lasting and it's in your gut, like, it's just like this feeling and then you bring it home. And I remember when we first started talking about this piece, it just felt so important to recognize that, like, you and I are a little bit of a different case because we are in business together. And it is tricky. I love when you go out and do social things on your own. Right. But when you are in a workplace and you are then having to sit in the discomfort of Judy or Johnny or Tom or whoever's beside you, and then you come home and then you can bring the good stuff to your partner. Right. You can bring the. Oh, man, let me tell you this work story.

Yeah.

And then your partner sees that as a bid for connection and it's like, tell me more exactly what did you think? Right. Rather than this, like going against each other. And I know a lot of people who are working from home aren't necessarily our case and are in business together.

No, no, for sure.

But one person's in the basement, the other's on the main floor.

That's what I mean. Yeah.

And then I think I heard one couple had done this during COVID when they were both working from home. They made up this like administrative assistance name and they were like, oh, blame Rochelle.

It's actually a really good strategy.

She didn't clean up the kitchen Again. Right. Or like Rochelle was on a phone call being so loud I couldn't claim my work done.

But yeah.

Yeah, I think it. I think that is a real reality and just this emphasis of, like, how important social connection is.

Yeah. I mean, because people, like, I don't want to disparage people working from home. They might be on zoom calls all day long and constantly with people, and I'm sure many of them.

And as you would do in the office anyways. Right. It could be back to back.

I think it's the difference, though. There's just the sharing the space.

Just shared space. And then it's the how do my partner and I come on the same page together and be a team looking at that problem at work kind of thing, rather than coming against each other. I think friendships and this autonomy piece is so important. It is something that if I were to go back, even say eight, 10 years, I don't think I nurtured it as much as maybe I wish that I had same.

No, I wish. I wish we both had a big do over.

What would you do differently?

I think we've. We've paid lip service to this idea of a schedule for a long time, but haven't really held each other. Like, we needed to be like accountability buddies on it and, like, encouraged. And we haven't, you know, like, Wednesday night was supposed to be my night and like, there was good intentions. And it's just for a variety of.

Reasons, my defensiveness is showing up right here. I want to be like, oh, are we good going? And are we doing this right now? You know, but you're right, though, love. I appreciate you saying that.

Like, it's for both of us.

Yeah. And it's the accountability. It's the, you know, I come to you, I'm like, oh, my night. It's my night. And I think I had even set up on point, like, can you just nudge me out?

Yeah.

And I think a few times you did, and then we just stopped.

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's. It takes consistent, like going back, doing the thing.

Oh, I wanted to add in something about the friendship piece here is recognizing seasons.

Yeah.

So when I was thinking about that golf story, so something that I remind a lot of people that I work with is we forget to update. Update our scripts. So you might have a script of me from two months postpartum.

Right.

Actually six months postpartum with two kids. That was. I think I sent you that picture of all of us crying.

But that's the. That's what you're alluding to.

That's the script. You hold that script in your mind and so you don't update it. Whereas now it's so different when you go out and leave me with the two kids.

Yeah.

Because I'm not healing. Postpartum, nursing, nap times, blah, blah. The kids are so much more independent. And that ability to say, actually, we're in such a different season now.

Yeah.

And so even when I think of the time I took for myself postpartum, that looked so different than today, if I got a shower and put mascara on back then, that was like, well, but it was. So that's all that I was capable of doing. Some days, though, Right. It's like, oh, sweet. I washed my face and combed my hair. Like, this feels really good for me just today because I'm, you know, two weeks post, two weeks after delivery. But then the seasons ebbs and flows and changes. And so now today I am going to say, hey, I'd like to go do that thing that's now six hours or something.

Go ahead.

As. As you're like, yeah, go ahead.

Reciprocity is a beautiful thing.

Go biking the next day.

There's also seasons with your friends, though, too. You know, my dirt bike buddies are some of the coolest dudes, and they span kind of across ages.

They are cool. They watch our reels.

Yeah. A bunch of them don't have kids. Some of them don't have kids. Some have kids who are in their teens, early 20s. So their ability to prioritize and do the thing is a lot different than mine. So often I feel like I'm missing out, particularly when I see their reels and that kind of thing. But I have to remind myself that in this season, for me, it's going to be quality over quantity. Right. And so your friends might be in different seasons, you might be in different seasons. So it's like, how can you make the most of that with different people at different times?

Right. I keep thinking about, how do I want to wrap up today? And, you know, I like to kind of put a nice bow on a conversation. And I'm just kind of thinking, there.

Might not be one, though. This is kind of an ongoing thing.

Yeah. Maybe the. The piece that I really resonate with is that really healthy relationships are both holding the autonomy and holding the interconnectedness, the coming together. And those. Those are actually two really hard things to balance. Because, of course, there's lots of feelings and things that need to be communicated and compromised and negotiated and Planned ahead. And the other thing too is the reality around friendships is that it does require discomfort.

Yeah. With the friends or with the. More so the partners?

With both. But I was thinking more with friends. Do you remember I told you about that? Kind of like I was trying to meet up with someone and then they never responded. I was like, okay, no friends. You know, like. Like that was a vulnerable thing to say, hey, do you want to get coffee one day together? And then, you know, life gets busy and away we go. And I don't fault that person in any way, but it's vulnerable to say, hey, do you want to get, you.

Know, do the thing?

And so I think maybe what I want to leave people with is this a reminder of we're all out here doing uncomfortable things. We're all trying to figure it out, and also just not to lose what matters to you.

Yeah. I think what I would say too is just kind of circling, circling everything back together is how can we come up with like a set of agreements to make this work that accounts for the family responsibilities, you know, the mental load, all the things that need to be done without overcorrecting, without sidelining one of the partners. Right. And that's, that's what I fear is maybe happening a little bit.

And that. So, you know, I have to put this in here, is that if your partner is at home with the kids, she is working from home.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

That is her nine hour day. And if you are out of the home working, you get to do that because she's at home with the kids. And so it is now a negotiation of that other space together, but to not ever view whoever's staying at home as having the easy route. Because I can tell you it is not the easy route.

Yeah, no, no, I know, I know.

I don't put the mental load plug in there. All right, thank you for this conversation. I really appreciate you being here.

Thanks for having me.

All right, thank you for tuning in. And one of the best ways that you can support the podcast is to share it with someone you love. One of the best things I think would be play this with your husband or your partner. This one specifically, start a conversation with them about what it means to build friends in this season of life and what things are missing or even your own autonomy and how you can start nurturing that because it's going to be benefiting the entire relationship. So thanks for coming, clicking Play, hanging out with us today. Don't forget to hit subscribe and I will see you next time. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. Take good care of you.

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