Why You Keep Having the Same Fight

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. Hi, it's Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, and I'm sitting here with my husband Greg, and today we're going to have a really fun conversation.

Fun?

Why? Help me understand.

Because I think everybody has this kind of experience in their relationship, the one where the same fight happens over and over again, over and over again. And we just had it this weekend.

Yeah, it's funny how they just keep repeating, eh?

They do, they really do. And I think that is such a really great space to go into this conversation because What I want people to really understand is that fighting is normal. And use whatever word you want to use in this, because I know some people don't like the word fighting, but disagreements, conflict, yeah, that's normal in a relationship. And a lot of people have this idea that if we're fighting, then it means our relationship is not good.

Yeah, that's interesting. I think we're going to talk about a different word being rupture, which almost to me feels more severe than fighting. Like, I don't know, like maybe obviously because of what you do, like I know fighting is normal or not unhealthy. So when I hear rupture, I'm like, oh, that sounds like more severe.

So even starting there is to say this statistic— I love this stat— comes from Gottman's 30-plus years of research of couples looking at how they have conflict. And what they have found is that 69% of conflict is perpetual, which means it never gets resolved.

That's wild. I mean, the 69% makes sense. The never gets resolved part, that's the one that's like, oh shit.

Well, and a lot of people think we should just be able to work through this, which is why when we had this same conflict again on the weekend that we've been having for 10, 15— how many years have we been together this year? That many years. That it's this kind of reminder of, oh, it's because we have different backgrounds different upbringings, different values, different experiences of the world, and different nervous systems. And that's what leads it to be perpetual, because how are you supposed to find someone who is going to be exactly the same as you?

You don't, and you don't want to. No, that's boring.

And then the other piece in here too is that we know from the research from Ed Tronick— so he does developmental research, he looks at the attachment bond between caregiver and parent— that parents actually end up missing their cues from baby 70% of the time. And that's in secure parent-child bonds. 70% in a secure parent-child relationship.

Is that before cell phones?

Well, yeah, even more.

I digress. Yeah.

But, but I think knowing those numbers is such a powerful way for us to sink into this conversation around conflict and disagreements and ruptures to be able to say, hey, guess what? There's nothing wrong with you. And it might not mean there's anything wrong with your relationship because so many of us walk around thinking, is this normal?

Yeah.

And this shame that then shows up for so many people around this topic.

Do you think that's still the case? Do people— I mean, in your practice, do they hold a lot of shame around conflict?

Absolutely. And think about the dinner conversations that you have. Most people are talking about family vacations, maybe even what's happening with in-laws. That's a hot topic that more people are opening up about, but not a lot of people start their walk with their friend or the coffee date with a friend saying, we just had this awful fight, or we've been fighting and feeling like roommates lately.

They don't start with that, or they do?

I think a lot of people still hold this deeper within themselves, right?

They— everything's fine, everything's fine, we're not going to talk about the, the hard stuff.

What will others think if they know we're in couples therapy? I think that's starting to change, but I also know that we are more open to talking about Parenting struggles.

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Generational differences between your family of origin or your in-laws, and even mental health difficulties.

I also think there's a huge— like, not to be reductive, but like, the modern woman is having a different conversation than her husband and his buddies on the golf course.

Absolutely right.

Like, stating the obvious, I think.

But not just even about the conversation, the information we consume. That too, it's completely different. And I think that does shape then the landscape of how so many people feel lonely in their marriages. And that's a huge one. But I think what I want people to really get away from today's conversation is that it's not so much this belief that if we're fighting, we're doomed, but rather it's what do we do after the fight that then changes what happens next? What do we do after? That's important. Okay. Do you want to share what this weekend, what our perpetual fight is?

It sounds so dumb, right?

They do, they do, they sound—

I think the idea is to normalize, like, like, it's actually trivial. But I came home from running an errand, my boots were on the front lawn because— and that, here, feel free to jump in and pick up the story. We have a small entranceway, and I have this habit of just leaving my boots and shoes in the way, in the middle. Like, it's pretty small.

I believe that if our entranceway was large and grand, you would still leave your boots right in the middle.

Yeah, but you could actually walk around them. You, you can't. Little chance.

Fair enough.

And it sounds so silly, right? But I think it's been happening for a long time, and it's, you know, it's my just not paying attention. But I think it signals something for you, and it's this idea that it's like the same thing over and over again. It's not actually about the boots in this case. It's not— yeah, your things, it's not about the dishes, but this is something that actually is happened for us for a long time.

So this is the actual fight that we have. That's— that was actually not what I intended the boots on the lawn to be this time. So just to make this fun and playful, we have this reel where I trip over your shoes and the one response is, I can lose it on you, which I have because it feels so frustrating. And immediately my thought, which comes from my own stuff is you don't see me.

Yeah, I know.

I'm invisible here. You never think about me. And that's the deeper piece of this. But so in the reel anyways, we're— I'm going to get sidetracked. But then we do it instead of try, and then the next time it's how you can deal with those perpetual issues. But so just as a joke, someone had commented saying those shoes would be so far gone out the front door, I would chuck them. And so when I saw the boots, knowing that you had— because you wanted to throw those out, they are done. But yeah, so I saw them in the middle of hallway and I thought, let's just have some fun. And then I threw them out the door. And then you sent me an image saying, I'm so sorry, I'll do better next time, of the boots on the lawn, which I thought that was funny. So what this used to look like for us though is I would get really angry. It would feel like this personal attack on me.

Yeah.

And then I would say something like, and this is the worst thing to do, why can't you think of me? Why do you always leave your boots in the middle of the floor? You never clean up after yourself. That, and that right there, that's an attack on you. Always and never, that's criticism. And because I think what it was missing is really the deeper understanding for me.

Well, for me it was a signal, cuz I didn't know what it meant to you. To me it was just logistics, it was literally just something physical there. Yes, it was a bit mindless for sure. I mean, could I be more tidy in that sense? For sure. But it's like not a big deal, it's literally a pair of shoes in my brain. For you though, I think there was a deeper meaning to it. And it took me a while, still does, to get it. And I'm still doing it, but I think at least now when it happens, I can go, okay, there's, there's something else to it. And, and I, and I air quotes, and I get it.

The deeper piece for me is the signaling that you don't think about me, which is a deeper attachment piece for me, right? I don't feel seen. But then I think the other kind of everyday body experience is that I am I'm highly sensitive and my environment matters to me. And so then if I'm tripping over shoes, that doesn't feel good for me.

No.

And the person tripping over them is me, not you, because you've left them and walked away. And it's taken us a while. And I think this is the other thing too I want people to hear is none of this just comes automatically. I started working with couples in research when I was 21 years old, and my brain wasn't done developing then. And so if I think about, okay, I learned all this research and then I learned all the clinical pieces, but then I had already spent 21+ years living in my body that I can't just apply the tools right away, right?

I mean, for me, it just, it was highly emblematic of like this high, high order, high structure way that you grew up versus mine low order, low structure. One of 3 kids, different models, different families, different values perhaps, right? And I can say that now, long time later. I think just for people listening, like, it— listen, it takes time. Like, you can say it to your blue in the face, but when you say this takes time, what takes time? For me to kind of slow down and go, yeah, this is probably a function of like how she grew up, what the symbolism is, what it signals to you, right? You can tell me for years, but it takes time. And hopefully maybe we can help people not wait those years that we did after listening.

And the piece too, and I always ask people this in my therapy room, is it's not about the shoes. It's not about, Rainn and Chantel on the podcast, Chantel talked about the burnt chicken story. It's not about the burnt chicken, it's not about the shoes, it's not about the dishes. What is this really about for you? And when it's those perpetual issues, that is the thing you want to do, is you want to be able to go to each other and say, here's what it's like for me. And then the other person to hear that and understand it. Now the catch— and this is why Gottman's called this the perpetual issue, and it's why these things cycle through— the catch is that just because Greg now understands my inner experience, it doesn't mean I can ask him to be perfect, right?

Because I'm still gonna do it, and I still fucking did.

Well, and that to me though was a big shift that I had to get through, because mine was, I've told you this before, so why do you keep doing this. I had to reframe how I view it in that moment. And a lot of that was looking at— I know you're focused on the next task. I know you're the one doing pickup with the kids, and you're probably transitioning to get them a snack from having the after-school letdown. Yeah, all of those parts, a lot of context in there, right? So it's, it's interesting though, because even when you uncover these deeper things, just because I understand Greg's perspective, he can't then ask me to say, well, now it should never bother you, I understand it. And then just because I've shared with him, I can't expect him to never do it again. But it's the how do I show up to that moment. And now there's one of two roads I go down. One, I kind of do the, yeah, okay, I'll move them out the way. And also, just for our women listeners, that's usually day 4 to day 19. Teen and just move them. But if you meet me on day 20, those shoes are sending me into red. So then, so I might then do a gentle reminder, hey love, shoes. And you'll be like, oh yeah, right, got it, right? That's kind of how we've been dealing with that now.

Yeah, I'm wondering, people listening, like, this seems silly in a way. Like, we're talking about shoes, we're talking about dishes. Like, it's just, it's little stuff, get over it. But why does that not work?

It's attached to the deeper meaning of it in our relationships, and it's also a thousand tiny paper cuts of not being considered and seen.

Yeah, I bring that up because I would imagine a lot of the responses, maybe from the male listeners, they're responding to the physical thing, not the meaning. So how do they make that shift, right? Because they're just looking at like, oh, it's just my— like, get over it, it's just the boots, or it's just whatever, right? They're responding to the actual thing, not the meaning.

Do you want your partner to be a mother or a lover?

All right, you can only be one thing, right?

You can't be both. And the day you ask your partner to be a mother and pick up your shoes is the day they're not going to be your lover. That's one approach. You can look at it that way. The other approach is, if it matters to her, it matters to me.

And that's a softer approach.

I don't know. I mean, intimacy is pretty important. I know sex matters, you know, for sure. But consideration of the other person— and if you don't want to consider your partner, that's not a partnership. That's you being a lone wolf and doing things all on your own, but a co-functioning relationship is you in a space together. That's why this matters. I think a lot of people miss that there are three potentially different kinds of ruptures that you're having in your relationship. So the first kind is something like the daily attunement rupture. That's the miss, the missed bids. And those ones can be repaired really quickly. So if I come to you and you're still on your phone, and then you realize that you didn't hear what I said, you can say, oh shoot, love, let me put my phone down. I'm sorry, I'm misconnecting right there.

Okay. I actually— in the moment.

In the moment, right? And I did that with my son actually recently. It was really lovely where I had gone back to him the next day and I said, hey bud, I'm so sorry, I missed you. We repaired it. That can be a really quick repair. It's not— doesn't have to be something that builds up. The second is the perpetual issue, which we just talked about. But the third one— and the reason why I want to bring up these three different types is because your repair is always going to look different. The third one is the attachment injury. And by the way, Greg and I have put out a new quiz for you, for our community. I'm so excited by this one because taking what we know about the repair, taking my 20 years of working with couples and putting it all together. Because hey, the number one thing I hear from people is, I said sorry, so why haven't you moved on? And it's realizing that the repair you need might not be the one that your partner is giving you, right? So this quiz, super quick, 2 minutes, 10 questions.

10, quick.

It helps you discover what you really need to hear from your partner so that you can copy and paste it to your partner.

There's literally a button to copy and paste. I think what's neat about this is because a lot of— sometimes we do these scripts or things for you to say or do outwards. This is something for you to understand what you need, and then you can ship that quickly over to your partner so they know what you need. So it's kind of like twofold, and it's just simple. Yeah, it takes 2 minutes.

It's awareness. Yeah, it's awareness so that your partner knows what's going to land for you. And that's something that I just think more—

Yeah, it's more information. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So that third injury though, the repair is going to look different. So let's, let's share one of those deeper ones for us.

Okay.

Okay.

Going deep.

Oh, we're going deep. This is one of those early postpartum wounds that we have. And I always say to couples, and I always enter this conversation with a lot of compassion and realness, which is it's not if you hurt your partner, it's when. Because the moment they mean something to you is the very moment you have the power to really hurt them. And especially in such a time of transition. So those, those attachment wounds can really show up if your parent has passed away. Loss, right? A major transition in life. Like getting married or having a baby, having a second baby. Another one would be losing a job or health issues that show. These are the times where those attachment injuries could appear. And so one of ours is actually during the postpartum period.

Just so we understand, so those are the main times that you're more susceptible to these? Because I, I'm thinking like, well, they could kind of happen every time. You're saying there's more propensity at this time. Why is that?

I knew you were going to ask, and I was so ready for you to ask. So thank you for being my partner on this podcast, because in those times of need, you need your caregiver with you, right?

So those are high needs times.

Those are the vulnerable times. Those are the times where we feel the earth shaking beneath us. And how do we deal with that? We have a partner in our corner that holds you close. But if you struggle in your security together and being able to reach for your partner and being able to respond to your partner, then that's the moment that you are at a greater risk of missing each other. And so then an attachment injury happens. The way I like to explain an attachment injury is like every time you have a disagreement or a hard moment, a book falls from the bookshelf and it opens right up to that page. And in that fight, you'd be talking about the shoes or the chicken or the kids. But the book opens to that page and it says, and then that time when my parent was sick and you weren't there for me. Hmm. And we have to heal that so that it'll stop falling and opening to that page. So oftentimes then couples are in this fight and this rupture and this disagreement, and then it's that, that's the undertone of the whole cycle. So for us, that was one of those postpartum experiences after our son was born.

Yeah. And, and it perpetuates, right?

Yeah, and because then we did what we would do, right, in our cycle. Like, I would get angry and I would lawyer up and I would give 10 examples of the thing that you did, and then you would just go into the problem-solving mode, fix it, make it go away.

Yeah, that's called avoidance.

Absolutely. And, and it's tricky because you just keep having the same fight without actually doing the deeper work because it wasn't resolved, right? Right. And what was underneath that I mean, maybe you can speak about like what's underneath it for you. For myself, it was hitting on wounds of not feeling seen and not feeling understood, like I didn't matter.

Yeah, I mean, I think for me it's— I mean, I hate to be overly repetitive, but I think it's just this idea of like comfort which comes from avoidance. Make it go away. Don't like the hard feelings. Don't like to sit in the discomfort. Problem solve leads to fixing. Leads to it in the short term going away. That's what avoidance is to me.

So, because what does it mean about you, Greg, if it doesn't go away? If your partner's upset, if you've hurt your partner, like, what's the deeper piece underneath for you?

Oh, I don't know. I mean, it's— there's probably some shame. I think for me it's just a discomfort, which I'm sure is the top layer. I think underneath there's some shame and not knowing what to do, and it shouldn't be this way.

Helpless.

Yeah, you know, I have this— things ought to be a certain way, right? So it's like there's a delta between what's happening, what ought to be, and that's uncomfortable and shouldn't be this way. And, you know, maybe as a kid I was overly frustrated and didn't have an outlet. So when things don't go the way they're supposed to be, you kind of just try and make it, make it so, but it doesn't fix anything.

Can I share a deeper piece? Sure. I think for you that shame connects to your goodness. Like, am I a good partner? Am I a good person? Like, that's, that's the deeper piece. And so when I'm upset about something, that is like very deep for you, and then you like scramble with the avoidance and fixing because that's the upstairs stuff.

Deep. Might be. I don't know if it's that explicit.

That's cool. What's it like being married to a couple?

Yeah, I was just gonna say, remember when all my work colleagues would be like, what's it like? Does she analyze you on the couch? I'm Fuck, it's just happening.

So what do we do about this now? I think is something worth sharing because when it comes to our attachment injuries, when it's this kind of rupture, so there's a breaking in our bond. I think the thought of today is, I said sorry, I acknowledged what happened, so just move on, right? And instead, what's important for people to understand is that if someone has one of these wounds, it is not a one-time conversation.

Many.

It's many, and it could even be years later. And that requires the injurer the partner who wasn't there in the responsive, secure way, right? That requires that person to really have to put to the side your feelings and stuff and ego.

That, as you're describing, I'm like, man, that is— maybe there's something to dig into there. Like, how do they do that? That is really tough because they acknowledge, they say they're sorry, maybe they even acknowledge their impact. Like, we're Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, we're doing all the things, and you're saying that might not be enough because you have to keep doing it. And I think for a lot of—

but you said there. That might not be enough. It's not about enough. It's not— that's not what it is.

I know, let me finish.

But the solution though is you put your shit to the side.

Yeah.

And you say, this is a moment where I get to understand and know my partner more. It's actually not even about you.

I, I hear all that. I'm just putting myself in another dude's boots, and he's like, like, how many times?

For as many times as you want to be connected. Oh, isn't that a good one?

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I, I knew— I thought you were going to say something like, there actually is no answer, you just do it until— and you might always have to do it. I'm just saying that's hard, like, particularly with, with men's egos. Like, we want to move on. Like, how do, how do we do that?

Your desire to move on continues to push the distance between the two of you. Moving on is through connection. Moving on is through the privilege of knowing, right, that your partner had this memory today of that time way back whim. And she needs you to feel soothed. Isn't that beautiful?

Right?

It's you, you the person, you the man, you the husband, partner. She needs you. So let that in, but put your shit at the door.

Yeah.

And sorry, I'm cutting you off. Terry Real Island— I love that he has this video that's being shared right now. He says, repair is a one-way street. It is not about you. It's about the person who's hurt. So when it comes to the attachment injury stuff, it might never be over because we don't get to have a blank slate. Now, we can draw a line in the sand and agree that we are making efforts to move forward and we change behaviors and we're doing things differently, whether there was any kind of infidelity or financial betrayal or whatever that looks like.

But that's agreement between two. That's, that's not an imposition from one of the partners, right?

Right. That is the agreement of both of you coming together for that. I think about people who experience affairs in their relationships. I talk about this a lot with my clients. I think about anniversaries. It's the concept of like our body knows, our body remembers. And it's this, even this like seasonality of things, how I remember one client describing like every fall, as soon as the leaves started to turn, she felt this anxiety inside of her. And when we would go back to exploring, like, what was this? That was the time she discovered, right, right, her husband's longtime affair. And again, then for her husband to then show up to that moment and not say, we're in this again, yeah, I've already said sorry, I've already changed. It's the, tell me what it's like to be you right now.

Yeah. That sounds like an advanced skill. Yeah.

Oh, it's so hard.

Wow.

And like, I mean, here's the thing too, right? And in your practicing this, you have been doing this more, is having one thing to say so that it's not defensiveness, but it's a, how do I meet you here in this moment?

Yeah.

Attachment injuries are heavy, eh?

Yeah. Yeah, they are.

And also too, the way couples can move through them. I think there's something in here, Greg, that we should dispel too, is that so much of the online world that we are consuming is about this, what's a red flag and what's a green flag. And if you are having conflict, then that's a red flag. And if your partner doesn't repair with you, that's a red flag. And it's like, well, it's not so binary. It's not so all or nothing.

So reductive.

Yeah. And, and yet relationships are complex.

Mm-hmm.

There's so much nuance and differences, and there's just this complexity of bringing two people together. And one of my clients once offered me the most beautiful analogy, which is that they are like two stones on the beach bumping up against each other by every wave.

Right.

And over time, those stones smooth out. Right.

And they change their shape.

Yeah. All right. I wanna wrap up by leaving listeners with two different questions to ask themselves. So the first one is, what's the perpetual fight that you keep having? Name it. And I actually want you to name it out loud and even go to your partner and talk to them about how could we get through this? Okay. That's the first piece.

You might have fun with that cuz it could be something silly, right? But, but, but the, what a great way to connect.

The question though is what is the thing that's deeper underneath this for me? So there could be two elements here. One is the perpetual fight. So like us, if it's the shoes, what is it actually signaling for you? Or is it that there's something deeper that's happening?

Yeah.

And that's more of the attachment injury. And I really want you to hear this, is that this is not about making these things completely go away.

Not going to happen.

It's more about what do you do afterwards? How are you going to tackle it together? How can you then come back and repair together? And I love the idea of looking at kind of this concept of rupture in a way is going to be the diagnosis. Like, that, that's the thing that's like, ooh, we're falling apart, or it doesn't— we're not feeling close. That's the diagnosis. But then if you look at the repair, the repair is the treatment.

That's right.

Or the prescription.

That's right.

And that can really help you to move forward.

One thing I was thinking about as you're saying is like, if you're the dude listening to that, is like, if you're having this conversation, is really try to come into it with curiosity. Like, it'd be so defensive to be like, yeah, it's just the fucking boots. Like, but don't do that. Like, tell me more. Just say those 3 words.

Yeah, I love those ones. All right, if something landed for you today, I would love for you to share this with your partner and start a conversation about what it means to have these ruptures and what repair would actually look like for you. And don't forget to take our repair quiz. You can also send that to your partner, so that link is in the in the show notes. And if you are looking for more support, I've got my Be Connected program there for you, which is 24/7 support, a great community, and also monthly coaching calls with me where we answer— I answer every single question that comes in. And it's that connection that really helps people move through those stuck points.

Human connection.

Human connection. That's right. All right, thanks for clicking play. Thanks for hanging out with me.

Cool.

Did you notice I wore jeans for you today?

I did notice it. I was wondering, what, was this another perpetual fight?

No, I just thought I'd put jeans on and look nice for you. I have to remind you at the end of every episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. See you next time.