Season 2 | Episode 77 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Amanda Tipps

Lance, what's going on?

Rhett! Oh my gosh, bro, so good to see you, man. I got bad news.

Uh-oh, what's that?

Look at this. My flip-flop, my favorite flip-flop has broken. It's really sad.

See that? He's holding up his flip-flop. And if you've never lived in California, especially Southern California, you may not realize the gravity of this situation, right?

Crucial attire. Yeah, now, now it droops a little bit, so if I go up a stair, there's high likelihood of me tripping.

Lance, I remember the first time my roommate in college who's from Santa Cruz, and, um, we're going to church on Sunday and he was wearing his Reef, you know, flip-flops to church. And you thought there was like a scandal going on, that here's this California guy walking into church with flip-flops. But now I think a lot of people do that.

So yeah, it's, it's so, um Uh, the RT Dialogue today is brought to you by Alukai. Get your Alukai sandals. Uh, best sandals known to man. Get your Alukai sandals.

Okay, our guest is like wondering what the heck is going on, but you know, we're always looking for sponsors. Viori is one of them. We're trying.

Yes, thank you, Viori, for your sponsorship today.

Okay, so episode 77, Lance, let's, uh, roll through a couple announcements and then you introduce our guest. Announcement 1: we have our summit. We're gonna— and we're gonna talk about this all the time— summit coming up in March.

Boom!

March 4th and 5th, correct?

Yes.

Malibu at Pepperdine. That's a Thursday and a Friday, so all day Thursday, all day Friday. We will do something Wednesday night, like a loose gathering activity. Um, so, uh, just sorry, something popped up on my screen while we were talking on about Riverside, so I'm just gonna ignore that. So we, we will do a loose gathering, uh, event, um, as far as that's concerned. I was sitting in a meeting last night. Right now we have 41 signups, which is actually a lot for us this early. Yeah, we expect to sell out. We're gonna host about 300, we believe. So go to our website, which we will have in the links, and also it's restorationtherapysummit.com. You can sign up early bird, all that stuff. And the cool thing is there will be an update to the website in the next couple of weeks. We are— I was looking at the breakout sessions that we were having. It's, it's awesome. Awesome group of people.

Dude, it looks great.

Breakouts?

How do you choose? There's about 26 of them and a wide variety of people and topics. I'm excited about that. Then we'll update the plenary topics and speakers. Everyone go register for that. Also, Lance, what else is coming up?

We got some trainings coming up. Super stoked about those. We have, for your viewing pleasures, Uh, hey guys, come join me, Level 2. Uh, our guest today was on our Level 2 training, so it's gonna be a long advertisement for our Level 2. Um, I have, uh, dates August 28th to the 29th and October 16th to the 17th. Come join, it's amazing, life-changing. Uh, then we have, uh, 2 trainings happening simultaneously in September the 18th and the 19th. September 18th and 19th, we have Restoration Coaching, which is brought to you by the Megan Eakin. Um, for all you, uh, people that are kind of like, I like restoration therapy but I'm not a licensed person, how do I do restoration therapy? Go to a coaching training. It's great, it's amazing, change your life. And then for all you people that are just kind of piquing that interest and you're like, man, I'd really like to learn more about restoration therapy, this is a good podcast, but you know, I'd actually like to hear more about it. Well, I got news for you. We got something for you. There's a Level 1 training happening in Portland. Is it Oregon? Portland, Oregon?

Yep.

Yeah, I just get Oregon and Washington confused. Um, Portland, Oregon. It's going to be amazing. It's done by Jason, um, Wilkerson. Um, and it's, it's, you know, September, Portland. Come on, what else you gotta know? So come, come join to the Level 1 training. How's that advertisement? Did I ham it up enough?

That's good. And also, all of our details are not out yet, but you and I are doing—

Yes.

An anxiety intensive in San Diego in September. Dates currently are the 23rd through the 26th. We'll get more information out. And it looks like we are gonna focus primarily on pastors, ministry leaders, male, that is, male ministry leaders, anxiety intensive. So stay tuned for more information. And if that sounds something you'd like to do or know somebody who would, um, we'll be talking about that.

So send your pastors, they need help.

All right, enough. Let's do enough announcements. You introduce our awesome guests so we can get rolling today.

Oh man, let me tell you about this person we have coming on today. I, I really appreciated Amanda. Um, she, um, came to my, uh, Level 2 training, um, the Heraldic Level 2 training where, um, I was not 100%, um, uh, and, uh, she, she did an excellent job. Her and I actually both weren't— your kid wasn't 100% that day. So, um, but Amanda is a really gifted therapist. She's out of Hill Country, Bible Church. Um, we love the people out there. Um, and, um, she's— I've got to see her work with kids and, um, some, uh, older adults. So, um, Amanda, she's a licensed, uh, professional counselor. I don't know how long she's been licensed, but you would think it's been forever and not long at all because she's, um, not super old nor is she super young. Um, she's that perfect stage, perfect stage of life. Where everything— the, the, the confluence of greatness. Amanda Tips coming to you live.

Yeah, that's how it feels some days. We're just in the, the peak of life and it's all downhill after this. That's, that's where it feels.

But you know, so you're over the hill then?

But I would say we're at the top of the hill. I would say I'm just trying to enjoy the sunshine up here.

Are you enjoying the Hill Country?

Oh, always, always. Born and raised here, actually. So, wow, I love it. I know, it's Hill Country, was like my church home since 4th grade, I think, 4th grade. So you're committed. I, I try, I try.

I got to meet Amanda and sit across from her at Mexican food plants at our RT gathering.

You mean Tex-Mex?

It's not Tex-Mex. There you go.

Yeah, you gotta get it right.

Yeah, there was a little bit of, um, uh, what was the word? When I mentioned at the table that I thought California and Arizona Mexican food was better than Texas, uh, people weren't super happy with me at that dinner.

So, you know, I think, I think we had some people who just weren't very open-minded. I have never tried Mexican food in California, so I would like to keep an open mind. I'm sure it's great. I will try it sometime. I'll bring some flip-flops, I'll go, I'll try it. I'm open to it. I think being a native Texan, I'm, I'm biased, but I'm willing to set that aside every time.

Well, when you come to the summit in March— yeah, I know you have an athletic background playing college volleyball— you'll— you can go down to the beach with Lance and a bunch of people, go surfing, learn how to surf, and then Lance will take you guys all to the best Mexican food, breakfast burritos after the surf.

So I'm in, I'm in.

La Salsa.

I wonder if La Salsa's— is it still open down there? This is awesome.

But I've just, I've just committed you to, uh, a surfing endeavor.

So RT Summit brought to you by La Salsa.

And you have also committed me to the summit, which you might have to take that up with my husband and my children.

So, okay, well, your husband can come, you know, and enjoy, and then be with you a couple days while you're crushing in the, the conference, and then you guys just hang out in Malibu for the weekend when you're done.

Go down to Disneyland. I'll tell your kids now.

The boys would love that. Boys.

Yeah. All right, it's done, people. All right, Amanda.

All right, Amanda.

So people are like— I hope people are still tuning in after Lance and I's silliness here. Uh, I have kind of a sense, just because you have an amazing center you work out at People down in Hill Country, Hill Country Bible Church, and it's a counseling center. But tell us a little bit about your journey to RT. How did, how did you get there?

Okay, so I— and Rhett, I may have mentioned this at dinner, but I feel like, like looking back now, I think it was inevitable that I found RT, um, because after undergrad I spent a year actually on staff at Hill Country and was praying and debating between different grad school programs, and I was between Fuller and DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary. And I— right. And so it was kind of inevitable. Do what?

Tough choice.

Well, okay, but during that year I met my husband, so I was like, well, he's here, so we're not gonna go to California.

Yeah.

So I— and I didn't go to Dallas either, technically. I Stayed in Austin and then commuted. The DTS Houston campus was kind of set up as a commuter campus. So I did that for 3 and a half, 4 years driving down. It's like a 3-hour drive once a week. Not ideal, but worth it for sure. Um, so yeah, that's where I met, uh, the wonderful Dr. Eric Ehle. He was my, um, grad school supervisor and my professor in like a handful of classes and Then, yeah, after grad school, I started working at Hill Country, and we do this incredible thing. I love that Stacy and Brian do this, but we do a quarterly brown bag where we invite a speaker to come in either in person or on Zoom. Surprise, you both are— I'm now officially saying that you guys have to be— can be speakers for that at some time. Um, but we have a speaker come in and speak on a topic, and people join us live, people join on Zoom, and we give a free continuing education credit for it. And so I told Stacy, I was like, hey, I have this awesome professor, Dr. Solwyn, like, he'd be, you know, he'd be the get, so can I ask him to come speak? And he came and basically like laid out, you know, the, the RT model for us. Gosh, that was like October of '24, 2024. Wow.

And you invited Eric Ehle.

It's all your fault. It's all— I know. Wow. It's all my fault. Um, but I think everybody on our team, I mean, we all, it clicked, like we want more, we need more of this. And then we all did his Level 1, um, almost all of us did his Level 1 training in January. Of 25. And then yeah, I got to do Level 2 with Lance this past February, March. And yeah, I mean, I just, I don't know, I can't get enough. I just feel, I feel like it just makes sense for me. My head and I have done some RD, like our own work, couples work, and our own work with Michael Cox, like the best. And yeah, just the way that it has transformed our marriage and our lives, like I just can't I can't imagine— I feel like I'd be doing my clients a disservice if I didn't bring it in the room for them most of the time. That's how I feel about art therapy. So that's a little bit of my story and how I got to it. But yeah, I got Eric Ehle to thank, and— but it was truly like, if I'd gone to Fuller, I would have encountered it there. So it's kind of funny.

That's great.

And for people who don't know, like, there's— how many of you are on staff actually at Hill Country?

So our team, I think there's 10 of us. I should, I should be—

And all of you have gone through Level 1.

We've all, uh, we've all gone through Level 1. Most of us have gone through Level 2.

Yeah.

Um, I wanna actually, I think all, no, I think all of us have gone through Level 2 now, unless there's an outlet, unless there's somebody I'm forgetting about, but we've all gone through it.

It's amazing. So Lance, like on our monthly Zoom calls, Not everybody obviously can be on there, but there's a good contingent of like sometimes on a— during that month, 4 or 5 people from Hill Country, you know. And, uh, it reminds me a little bit, Lance, of like, okay, there's the West Coast Restoration Center going on with you in San Diego. Yeah, this group of people in Hill Country who are all RT, which is awesome. So it feels for me being here in Texas, I'm like, oh, this is like a good home base I don't live in Hill Country, but when we did our gathering, I'm like, oh, we need like a group of people in this area that like there's a center and there's lots of like energy around it. And so I don't know, it just kind of, it kind of felt like that, like, oh, this must be what it's like for Lance and his team. Also, Amanda gets to go into work and everybody is speaking Arty.

Yeah. And our team meets together every Tuesday and it just like we have an hour of training and an hour of supervision, and it really just is just bouncing ideas off each other, trying to get, okay, what would you do with this? Well, you know, what do you think Lance would say about this? What would Brett say? What would Terry say? And so it's just really funny to get all those voices together. It's so— I, I tell Stacy this all the time, like our running joke on the team is like, hi, welcome to the team, don't ever leave. Like, we, we love you here. We don't want to— we just, we're such good friends. We're like a family. And I just can't imagine being off somewhere without these people. Like, they have just been so helpful in some of my, you know, just the hard cases, the ones that get to you, or the ones where you just feel stuck and you're like, yeah, what I'm doing. So it's been—

that's awesome.

I love it. Yeah, I'm just— I'm kind of envious that you guys just get to have that, that, that thing, you know. So come on down, Eric Ehle comes in and speaks. What, what was it like? I'm always curious You know, Terry talks about, I think, like, when you catch it, you catch it. When there's something that usually happens that people are like, okay. So I'm wondering, when you were sitting there listening to Eric talk, did something just like— what was it that resonated with you? And was it in the class actually, or was it in that brown bag lunch?

That's a good question. I think, I think for me, what— so A little background on our counseling center. Our first director of counseling was super well-trained in Bowen family systems. And so, like, Stacey and myself and a few of us others who've kind of been around for a while, we were trained. Bethany on the team likes to joke that she was raised Bowen. And so there we have this, like, deep family systems background. And for me, that was a lot of— it was really helpful. Like, I work with teens and kids, and so it was really helpful to see things from just a pure Bowen perspective. But I had a really hard time integrating faith with that. And being in a church setting, like, not every client who comes in my office wants to talk about their faith, has a faith background. Like, sometimes we don't go there, but a majority of them do. And so it really— like, I was really thankful for my training at DTS. That's why I knew I wanted to go to a seminary. So I was like, I need a way to, like, bridge psychology and theology. Like, I don't know how to do that. And for me, doing that work with Bowen was really hard at times. And RT, at least the way that Solwyn presented it in that first brown bag, just married the two beautifully and just felt like it kind of hit the core of like, yeah, this is who I am as a person. And that like, it, it just, it helped me. Like, I start, I remember sitting in that brown bag and I'm focused not so much thinking for my clients, but focus more on of like, whoa, if I could get this, if I could really get this, because I've got a lot of pain, if I could really get this and understand peace, because I know that, I know, yeah, I think I'm, I think I'm hunching on what that could look like. Oh, this could be transformative in my life and in the lives of those around me. I, I, yeah. And so it, I think for me that's when it clicked. And man, level 1, diving in, exploring pain and peace cycles. I came home. I think, Rhett, I've heard your story of sharing it with your wife after, and her just sitting across me like, what's happening? And that was kind of my husband. I'm telling him, like, okay, so here's what I've learned at this training. I went to Dallas for a few days, stuck him with, I think at the time, like a 4-year-old and an almost 1-year-old. I'm like, okay, so here's where I'm broke. Here's all the things. And it took a while to click for him. And then I think, yeah, once it clicked for him and he started to see, I think, Michael as an individual, and then of course Michael was like, yeah, I think both of you should be in here. And then we did the couples work and that's when it really like anchored in that like, yeah, this is, this is what I'm doing. This is meaningful. This is impactful, not just in, you know, my psychology brain, but in how the Lord created me.

That's awesome.

Great.

Yeah, I love that. Shout out Michael Cox.

He's the best. Which, okay, the funny thing about that dinner— I, I don't know if I should say this on the podcast, but I get to the table for this RT Texas dinner meetup and there's one seat left and it's right next to Michael. Hi! Do you care if I sit? And of course Michael's so cool, he's like No, it's fine. Go ahead. And I mean, we've been terminated for a while, but I mean, could you imagine one of your clients just coming into dinner and sitting down next to you? That poor man. And then Rhett asked us, he goes, he goes, did you guys know each other before this? And we were just like, yeah, like, we don't know how to answer this. So poor guy, I put him in a hard spot, but he handled it like a champ.

I've actually, I've had this conversation with Sharon and Terry you know, about, uh, therapy in our community because we're a pretty small community.

Yeah.

And, but, and so I have a tendency to like refer out to other places, but then Sherry and, and Terry— or Sherry—

Sharon and Terry, it's their, uh, their, um, celebrity name.

Yeah, yeah, Sherry and Taryn.

Um, they're better than Taryn.

They basically are like, we want our people in the community doing therapy work with RT therapists. Yeah, so don't shy away from that work. Just be clear about the boundaries and that you're going to run into people, and just be adult and professional about it and talk it through what that looks like, you know, because it's not any different than someone doing pastoral counseling who's a part of a church and you see those people week in and week out. So that's funny though. I had no idea. So you guys played it off beautifully.

You're that guy. You did it, Rhett.

Yeah.

How do you guys—

you know, and then Eric came in and did the forgiveness training that weekend. It went super deep with that. And so, um, I could see, you know, you spending time with him at Dallas Seminary, inviting him to the brown bag, and having him as that resource, how that was kind of the hook that pulled you into RT. Yeah, it's really cool.

Yeah.

What do you, what are you like super excited about right now, like doing RT work? Like, I, I know, like, at least talking to you at dinner, you love working with adolescents, it seems like, and adolescent girls. And, and that's not the only population I like to work with, but you seem really jazzed about that. You kind of came to life talking about that, and I was just curious if there's a population or some type of aspect of RT that you're just like all about, like all in right now.

Yeah. Okay. So I think I have two big things that are popping into my head. I think the— there's one that's like super fun and easy to bring into the room, and there's one that is so hard for me and scary. I, I, yeah, the working with families. So I work with teens, like those are my middle school, high schoolers are my favorite people in the whole wide world. And for a while, I think I kind of had this therapeutic mindset, and I told parents like, it's not drop off and fix, like family systems, you need to be doing the work too. But I didn't have a clear model for that, and it was kind of like each case is different as needed. And it really, like, I don't know, I think looking back, it did kind of fuel this sense of like, okay, but I can fix them. Okay, but I can help. Like, instead of realizing like, no, no, no, most of the work is not done in my office, it's done at home. And so one of the things that, one of the ways that I've had to really work, and I'm still working to grow, and it terrifies me every time. Is getting parents in the office and getting parents of my teenagers in the office. And my teens hate it. But, and it's hard, it's, man, I feel, I've never worked with couples, but I feel like a mediator. Like I joke, like my hands like fly up, like, okay, stop. Okay, okay, stop. Like my hands like fly up constantly. Or I'm like, but like, okay, come on, keep going, keep going. Okay, let's try this. Let's practice this. And, and it's, man, those are the sessions for me that I am pretty nervous walking into, um, because that's not this like easy peasy, let me sit back and like just chat with a teenager and, and we're gonna do it in an RT method and they don't even know what's happening, they just think we're, you know, just chatting. Um, but with parents, like, it's, oh, it's harder, but I love it because I think what I'm seeing as I've been doing this now for a couple months, especially after Level 2 with Lance, is like this is where the real work is happening. Because I think— and I would be curious to hear both of your thoughts on this— but I feel like middle school, high schoolers, I don't know, and I could go either way, but I, I feel like they are in the middle of like a lot of times forming their pain cycles. Like they are actively— those pain cycles are actively forming or being shaped or molded. Now sometimes it goes back more back to like family of origin when they were younger type of stuff, but man, especially with like peers and just significant life transitions, I see a lot of like, oh, this is real time. Like, pain cycles are forming as we speak. And if, if I'm not engaging parents in that process, if I'm not engaging something where like you're doing the work at home to combat this— and maybe not combat it, but learn how to like learn that it's okay and learn to move through it and get to a place of peace— like, I'm really doing them a disservice. So I don't know, it's That's something that I've wrestled with a lot is like, how is it possible to help them avoid the pain cycle? Can we do that work? How do I do that one instead? But just kind of a unique stage of life being a teenager and all the craziness that comes with it. But yeah, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

What do you think, Rhett?

You go first, Lance.

Yeah, I feel like it's such a a fascinating thing when you bring in the parents, um, because sometimes you're like, oh, this pain cycle makes a lot of sense now. Yes, you are very, um, disrespectful to your children, but you expect them to be respectful to you. I can see why this doesn't work well together. Um, you know, uh, I think so. I find that to be fascinating, uh, when, when, when that transition happens. And yeah, I mean, I always like Sharon's thing, you know, how she likes to encourage people, "You can do hard things." That phrase that Sharon says just comes back to my heart so often. And I think that's one of the things that we need to help this next generation to know is that they can do hard things. Um, I think that would make a huge difference for, for so many. Uh, but, um, yeah, it's, it can be kind of wonky. Um, and I've had some really big failures, like where, like, man, that did not go well at all. Um, and, and then you're just sitting there like at the end of the session and you're kind of questioning humanity. Um, like, and, and why you got into this profession, you know. Um, you know, but yeah, I think— but I have had some of those magical moments too where they come back together and they're like, oh yeah, it's kind of like the light shines.

But yeah, I think, I think for, for me, what I found some of those magical moments is help. Like, because typically the way it'll go is like, okay, once we have a pain and peace cycle baked out, like, okay, let's share this with mom and dad. And they're like, absolutely not. Like, no, no, hear me out. Like, here's how this would be helpful. Or maybe I'll even give them homework of like, okay, here's your 4 steps, you're gonna go try to do this on your own all week. And they come back, I'm like, that was an epic failure. I'm like, okay, so here's what I think we could do is bring mom in, bring dad in, someone, and, and engage them in helping you. To walk through? Like, how can they help you do the work? And that has been like an aha moment, I think, on both sides of the street. Because then parents, when they see their kids' pain and they understand it a little bit more, I feel like it kind of clicks of like, oh, I don't just have this crazy person living in my house. Yes, they're not just disrespectful and rude, like, they're in pain. And helping a parent see that helps the parent then, because then I'm typically like, okay, but here's you as the adult in the room. I'm not always very kind to parents. I require a lot of them. I'm like, as the adult in the room, it's your job to be the one who's calm, cool, and collected and help your kid walk through their steps so that you can both be calm, cool, and collected and move forward with whatever the issue— whatever's happening. And it's hot— like, it's hard for the parents, but I think having that like that aha moment for them. Like, oh, once I see my kid's pain and they're coping, they're not just this disrespectful person. I didn't raise someone poorly. Maybe I contributed to the pain, but I can help them with owning it. I can help them with moving through it and stewarding the pain well, at least while they're still under my roof. So I don't know, those have been some of my like fun aha moments. I'm like, yeah, now we're You know, we're getting there.

Yeah, yeah. What do you think, Rhett?

I was thinking, I don't— these days I work— I don't work with a lot of teenagers. They're mostly, if I do, upper, like, 17, transitioning seniors. I work a lot of college kids, so it actually is a little rare that I have— I even meet the parents sometimes. The parent— I have a lot of kids coming to kind of counseling on their own, and actually I find that aspect of it really empowering for them. They take responsibility to drive themselves to counseling and own their stuff. But over the years, I was laughing because some of my biggest failures are just navigating family systems in a therapy room. It's been disastrous, where I've questioned my vocation and ability to be a good therapist. I do think what I found, which I think I hear you saying, Amanda, it's been, what's been really powerful is like, for example, to write up a kid's pain cycle on a board and, and the parent sitting there and to like see that and, and to see how then I'll map out the parents sometimes and see how they get into that, that, that dance that they do. And it's really helpful for them. Um, I think that's where things fall apart too, and where I haven't always been very good, which is where the parent often doesn't want to take responsibility for their part. They just want you to get their kid fixed. Yeah. So it's— I actually, I feel more competent in couples counseling, to be honest with you, than I do when I was navigating like teenagers and their families. Um, which I don't know, it's weird because I spent so many years in youth ministry and college ministry, but I'm glad there are people like you who are good at this because It's, it's hard work, you know. And even like family systems, I've had some stuff go really south where I've had adults, just an adult family come in the room, and navigating that, whoo, yeah, is hard. But I think RT, what it does well with people and with couples, and I think of families, is help organize families, organizes the system and helps us like sequence how we're going to work together and intervene.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

One of the things that comes to mind too for me in moments like this is I remember when I was getting trained by Terry and he, he, he was talking about therapy and like those, like how much we put into our therapy moments, like when we're in the room and like, oh man, that was like the best session ever. Right? Like, that we finally got them to cry. They admitted, you know, their pain. And, and in this moment, and, and Terry's like, yeah, like, what the, the sessions you put a lot of stock in, like, you know, most your clients will forget that amazing session. Um, but that horrible session that you thought was like the worst ever, your clients are going to come back after that session and they're gonna be like, Oh my gosh, that was so— that was like such a great session. Thank you so much. And you're like looking at them like, that was the worst session of my whole life. I've never had a worse session in my life. Like, seriously, I've been doing this work forever. And so I started like thinking about like, let the work be the work when it comes to therapy, knowing that if we're dedicating ourselves to the flow, there is something that will manifest eventually, you know, um, uh, if we, if we're, if we are kind of prudent in doing that work. So I think, um, there is that kind of release. I always think about those horrible kids sessions, and, you know, maybe, maybe what I thought was horrible and not so good, like, there's, there's something happening there that I didn't know about. Yeah, so that, that's my saving grace. I don't know if it works that well for you guys.

No, I'm with you. And I think, Rhett, you said something earlier too of like sometimes you'll put a parent's pain cycle up there as well. And that Lance and I kind of went back and forth in Level 2 training because I had a case where I was like, I'm for sure showing the kid. Mom, like, Mom talks about her pain all the time. Like, we're for sure showing that one. And it, it Praise the Lord, it went well. But I, I think I learned— I've learned in other mistakes, I'm learning when— like, man, every case is so different— when is that appropriate, when is it helpful? And kind of, I, I think that is what I find fascinating about working with kids, teens, and parents is like, there's a power dynamic, you know. As long as they're still under your roof, like, there is a power dynamic at play that that— I don't know, I don't work with couples, so maybe that's not as apparent with couples, or maybe it's there and it needs to be corrected. I don't know. But with parents, it gets— that's where I'm like, let's just get it out. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about, you know, the, the power dynamic that's in the room and, and who's bucking up against what and who, you know, who's hitting their pain right here. I don't know. It's, it's funny. I tell my kids sometimes, my kids and my teens. I'm like, listen, I'm gonna ask you a question you don't want to answer at some point, and if words feel hard, just throw something at me. I'll take the hint. I'll, I'll catch whatever you throw. That's fine. I'll take the hint. And yeah, because I don't know, we're not doing the work. I don't know, just sometimes I ask questions and I'm like, come on, like, let me push you. We're going here. We're gonna, we're gonna talk about this. We're gonna call out what's in the room. I don't know, that's why I like having parents in the room sometimes, because yeah, sometimes it's an epic It feels like an epic failure. But then one of the beautiful things I think about RT being so experiential is like, well, let's just name it right here in the room. We're all in our pain. Me too. Like, we're all in our pain. Can we call it out? Can we use this as an example? I don't know. I've had that happen a few times lately, and I'm like, okay, perhaps now we could work on forgiveness model. Let's just segue this to something else.

But I think I was thinking and reflecting on this. I think what I did really well, especially early in my career, and I think I've always done well, and I didn't probably even have the language before I came across RT for this, is that I think a kid, a teenager, I provided an environment that felt love and safe for them. And it might have been the only place during the week where they felt loved and they felt safe. But, and that was great. And I think that was really helpful for a lot of kids. But I think what I didn't always do well, and I've tried to do better, is that you, they, it's like you send them back in that home and you haven't really changed the system.

Yeah.

And so like thinking about if I want to like not only provide a loving and safe environment for them in my office, how do I change the system that they go home to that feel, make that feel more love and safe and, and not just make them feel loved and safe, but how do I empower them to take action out of their truth? You know, and so that, that's been the harder part is trying to figure out that. And that's, I think, what involves bringing more people into the room, whether it's a spouse or parents. And that's what increases my anxiety too.

Yeah, it's scary. I mean, it's— for me, it's even more so. I can stand up in session without knowing what I'm gonna do and like walk over. We've got these big shelves in our playroom that have all sorts of gadgets and toys and all sorts of stuff. And like that idea of like, stand up and don't even know what you're going to do. Like, I feel like I can do that all day long. And I look over and my client's on the couch rolling their eyes because they know they're about to have to stand up too. But like bringing parents in the room, bringing other people in the room, that is the thing that just makes me want to—

Living creatures.

Yeah, makes me want to crawl under the chair and pretend I'm not there.

Inanimate objects all day long, right? The minute they animate, oh man.

Yeah.

Is there a, you know, we like to talk about interventions and stuff. Is there a particular one that you've really liked using with teenagers?

Yeah. Well, yes, I don't, I don't know if it's technically an intervention, but I, this is what I've been using a lot lately. And Man, my kids love it for the most part. Some of them think it's silly, but I just— that just means we haven't cracked them yet. Um, but when we were doing Level 2 with Lance, he asked us like, what animal, um, you know where I'm going with this, like what animal would you say like represents you in your peace cycle? And so I've really been— because for me that I gave him one answer one week and then I really thought about it and gave him a different— like, the next week we come back in, I'm like, excuse me, sir, I need to change my animal. That's not true.

And no, you chose that animal. That's you, right?

Like, um, no, sorry, like, we're changing this, right? That's— write this down. Um, and so I have— and there's, there's an animal that I picture with my pain cycle too. And I— so for my teenagers, a lot of times I like— we do that. We assign an animal to either their pain or their peace or both. And man, the avenues that has opened up for like getting creative with, okay, what are some, you know, things this week, times this week when you may feel like this animal, or things that you expect, you know, like, like you would with an anxious client. Like, what are some things you might come up in the next week that could trigger your anxiety. Let's practice walking through your 4 steps. Like, and just with teenagers, I don't know, it's kind of fun. It's a little more simple, feels a little bit like old self, new self type work. Um, but a little bit like, okay, when do you, when do you expect you're gonna feel like that animal that you're not, but you, you feel like that sometimes? And they're like, oh, definitely at this point. And I'm like, okay, let's, let's pick, you know, we'll go through that sort of situation, whatever it is. We'll walk through that scenario and practice. Okay, I want you to picture yourself as this animal. Picture it. I know it's silly. I always say that. I'm like, I know it's silly. Come on, keep— like, just picture yourself as that animal. What's true about you as that animal? And for some of mine that, you know, are believers, it's like, man, God created you to act out of that. Like, how did God create you? He made you to look like this, not like this. How do you live out of that? In that scenario, what does it look like? What are your actions? What are your steps? And so, um, as silly as it sounds, like that, you know, assigning an animal to pain and peace cycles has been— I've done that with so many of my clients, and they're— they eat it up lately.

What are your animals?

Oh, I knew you're gonna ask that. So, okay, my My— for my pain, I feel like this— I don't know where I get this image in my head from. It's either from like the Aristocats or The Jungle Book. Like it's an animated cat that's like whiskers are all crinkled. It looks like it just got hit in the face with a frying pan or something. And it's like this cat that is like malfunctioning, like can't do what it's supposed to be doing. Like just bad. But my, my peace animal is a Pegasus. Wow. Yeah, like just this big and beautiful, like strong horse with these incredible wings. And I, the like, just the way that a pega— like thinking of myself as a Pegasus just makes me feel like I am light and graceful and like very unhurried, but full of power and like highly capable. It's like blending this very like calm and peaceful, but highly capable and so strong, like both of those things in one. And to me, I'm like, that's it. That's, that's the animal.

So good.

Both of those things. Yeah. And it's, it's funny, like my pain, my pain words directly tie back to my volleyball career and the idea of me as a Pegasus. Like that ties back to a coach who called me that once. You know, she was like, you just jump like you just jump out of the gym. You're like a Pegasus. And I was like, a what? And then I guess I figured out what it was. I was like, that is just such a kind of compliment.

You're mythical.

Yeah, it was so interesting. Like, oh, and it took me like probably a year of knowing my pain words to figure out, whoa, like my pain words came straight out of another volleyball coach's mouth. And And yeah, so those are my animals.

That's— that's cool. I mean, I like that you actually went home and you had to, like, rethink it. Like, yeah, that's part of, like, getting into our truth is trying to figure out what is empowering for us. I just got done rereading The Chronicles of Narnia too, you know? And so, like, the Pegasus Pledge in there who originally shows up as this, like, humble horse in an earlier book and everything. So I was like, Pegasus, that's a good— that's a really empowering image for somebody.

Yeah. Yeah. It— I— my husband and my son just got through their like second read-through of The Chronicles of Narnia. I haven't read it since I was a kid, so I need to— yeah, I need to refresh because my son's like talking about all the characters. I'm like, oh, I don't think I remember that person.

But I try to reread that like every few years, this all 7. And it's amazing as we age, the things that we see differently, how it comes to life. It is, it's unbelievable, you know. Um, I— that's interesting. I haven't done that actually, you guys, that intervention. You haven't?

No. So you talked about that?

I just— no, I mean, I've heard you— for people to talk about it, but I've— so here I'm learning something new. I gotta think about it for myself.

And that's about your pain cycle. Think about your pain and peace cycle, Rhett. Yeah, and then, and then when you look at your pain and peace cycle, you think about if there were an animal that was attached to my pain cycle, like what animal do I imagine? And then when I look at my peace cycle, you know, what animal? Yeah, I actually spent a lot of time on this for myself as, um, recently I was thinking about my pain cycle and I, and I decided I wanted to paint at my kind of space of, um, my, my pain cycle. And the image that kept on coming to mind was this like wild-eyed rabbit, um, that was like running like just like— I don't know if you've ever seen rabbits run, but man, they're like crazy. And like their eyes are like this big. And I had— I saw the eyes being bloodshot, kind of like your cat, like with the whiskers.

Yeah.

And then the ears were like, you know, this. Um, but yeah, I spent all this time, and man, when you paint your pain cycle, oh, like all the feelings that are coming out, like all that sense of feeling overwhelmed, um, feeling like, you know, running from, like, failure, like running from it, and this sense of, um, uh, feeling unloved. It like, it like came to life. It was really powerful for me to spend time looking at my pain cycle and the wild-eyed rabbit, wild hare.

Well, and I think what's cool, I think, well, two things that I think are really cool with that intervention is like an animal, to me at least what I've seen is that an animal can embody both violations of safety and of love. Like, like an animal can be— can kind of embody both rather than just like, okay, let's pick one, one word that, you know, is your pain. And then I know, like, I feel like I almost have like two separate forms of my pain, and one I can very easily track with feeling, you know, one is, is for sure my identity and one is for sure my safety. And for me, like, that Pegasus really embodies— it's like the perfect marriage of me.

I like that.

It's really— I don't know, animals are cool. But then I also love, like, I'll pair it with like a Four Corners type exercise. And it's like, okay, we're gonna go ahead and draw it. We're gonna draw two pictures of that pain animal. We're gonna draw two pictures of your peace animal. And we're gonna stick them on, physically tape them to the walls. And we're gonna walk around and we're gonna look at them. And then we're gonna physically be that animal. Okay, yeah, we're gonna be silly, we're gonna look silly, and my little kids will eat that up. My bigger ones are like rolling their eyes at me. But I mean, like, look, I'm willing to make myself look dumb in session. I'll do it with you, and it's not even my animal. Um, so yeah, it just lends itself, I think, to a lot of creativity of like, okay, yeah, now we're gonna pull up a picture of a Pegasus. I want you to make that your phone background for the week. It's gonna look silly, You don't have to tell your friends. You can make something up. Tell them your therapist said to do it. I don't care. Like, you know, there's just a lot you can do with it. So I don't know, I like it.

Yeah, it's so much fun. I had this client a while back that, um, connected to the Phoenix, and it was so good. It was— I had her like do a poem on it, um, and yeah, it was so great. It was like, wow, Like, now I want to get a tattoo of a phoenix in honor of that client. Um, but I, I didn't get— I've never had a tattoo before.

But Lance has got a big phoenix on his back. It just covers everything.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go get the wing.

Get the Pegasus, the wings.

Yeah, I did that as a breathing technique one time though. It was, it was with a client. Their animal had Wings. And I was like, this is gonna sound really silly, let's just roll with it. And we did— as we did breathing, I kind of pictured— I had them picture like the wings, like kind of like there on their back, like forming. I don't know, maybe I'm teaching children that they're animals, but I don't think so. I think we're pretty clear about that up front, and it's just more like, we're gonna do this breathing exercise. And it was, it was part of their Stop, Turn, Slow, and like Hey, we're going to really embody this animal and we're going to do our breathing. And as those wings are forming, we're stopping and then we can turn and then we can go. So yeah, you can get creative with it. I love it.

That's great. Rhett, did you figure yours out?

Yeah. What are yours?

Oh, actually, I'll give you a first shot, but I got to think about it really because I'm not content with this. I think I'm like a big kind of like honoree bear who just wants to be left alone and kind of grumpy and likes to withdraw and pout a little bit. Just kind of wants to go in its corner. If you've ever seen a bear just kind of— yeah, maybe when they're coming out of, uh, hibernation, they just look completely frazzled. And, um, I, I have the tendency to withdraw, disengage, kind of pout. It's very ugly. So I picture kind of an Henri Bear doing that. The peace one is a little harder. I— the first thought that came to mind was some kind of like big cat, like jungle cat, like a cheetah or jaguar. And I think mainly because I think I've always liked to run and I'm not fast like that, but it's always running and movement's always been empowering for me and like life-giving. And so I, I think when I come to life, like, that's me, like, engaged and moving and connecting with people. But I, I— that's why I said I haven't done this. I need to, I need to think about it because I think it could— I could see where it would be really powerful for me to think about that and also to use with clients. Or even my— I was thinking about my own relationships at home, like with my wife. I was thinking, oh, I need to talk this through and ask them what they think. What kind of animal am I, you know, when I'm in my pain? Because they probably have a good answer. Kids, you know—

Like, bear is it.

Yeah, yeah. Like Eeyore or something, you know? Like, they probably could tell me spot on. Because I don't know if you— you know, don't ask your kids to impersonate you ever, because you might be shocked about how good they are at it. Wait, that's not what I do. So I'm going to— this is my assignment. I'm going to ask and to come back to you guys and let you know. No, but here's— so, Amanda, I don't know you super well, but like I said, spent some time with you over that weekend. By the way, she makes a killer sourdough. Like, was it monkey bread? No. What is it?

It's just like a cinnamon sourdough. I actually just pulled one out of the oven before this. It's It was like a cinnamon sourdough bread.

As one does. Yeah, yeah. She brought it to our gathering and it was like, oh my gosh, awesome. So, but what I'm picking up from what I picked up from you, what I'm picking up from Lance's experience, you and you talking, is that you seem to be pretty comfortable like getting into things and getting up and engaging people. Like that seems to be a comfortable zone for you. And I don't think that's everyone's, the case for a lot of therapists. I think that's a huge growth area of growth for a lot of people. And I think I put myself in that category. It's a huge area of growth to get up and come from my own skin. And so I'm wondering if I'm accurate with that. Like, why do you think that is about you? You know, number one. And then two, where, where do you feel more stuck sometimes in the therapy room with RT?

Good question. Yes. Okay. So I, I think getting up and getting creative in session is just a wiring. Like, the Lord wired me to be very creative. I, like, I don't know, we had like a creative program starting in like elementary school that I was a part of. And, and I, I don't know, I tell my boys all the time, like, when they're bored, when they say they're bored, I'm like, great, it's an opportunity to get creative. Let's invent something. Let's build. Um, so I feel like I'm always just like playing. And yeah, I, I'm just as a teenager, like, I'm not afraid to look dumb in front of a teenager. I don't know, there's plenty of people I am afraid to look dumb in front of, and teenagers aren't them. I don't know. I don't know. And so that it could be that like, I— with parents in the room, that's where those nerves come in of like, okay, these are adults, these are potential, like I don't know, uh, authority figures, like people who could literally pull the plug on my job, on, you know, my sessions with this client. Um, and so I think, I think it's just the comfortability of like, the 16-year-old can judge me all they want. Like, I know that I'm gonna get up, and I know that if they'll commit to this, this could be helpful. Um, so I think that is kind of just where that, that confidence almost comes from, is like, I don't I don't care what the, what the 13-year-old thinks. But I'll tell you where I'm, where I'm struggling and where I tend to struggle, because I lean more towards anxiety in my own struggle. And like, man, I don't— Lance, I don't know if I told you this. I read your dissertation on a plane a couple of weeks ago and just— yeah. Wow. Yeah. After level 2, I was like, hey, can you email that to me? Me please. And I could give you some pointers on anxiety. And so yeah, so I read it. I've been doing Stop, Turn, Slow, like anxiety feels like my wheelhouse. Yeah, depression. That is another ballgame that I tend to— I have a harder time in like, as a kid leaves my office, knowing Okay, what do you do? How— like, what's your homework with RT? What's your— how do we take these 4 steps and help, like, stimulate the nervous system, help get you up, get, like, in the room? I can push you all day long, but I can't make you do that at home. And with my anxious kiddos, like, I know, like, okay, here's your triggers, here's all these things, blah blah blah, like, here's where you're gonna start doing it. But with my clients that lean more towards depression, I would love y'all's thoughts on that because that is an area that I get stumped pretty quickly.

I don't know, I have read his— I've read his dissertation too, so, um, Lance needs to publish that at some point, uh, publish in a book. Um, that's funny you say that because I've always said it's easier to work with anxiety than is depression because with anxiety there's some energy that you can move in some directions, but when you're emotionally flat, it's really hard sometimes to help animate people to come to life, you know?

Yeah.

And so I don't, I don't know if I have a good answer.

It is interesting, like, you know, like, because we're talking about energy here, right? And like with, with anxiety, we, we can do some taekwondo on that where we can like move the energy and shift it around. And I feel like with depression, we're actually trying to create something, right? Um, uh, I mean, depression manifests in all sorts of ways, but, you know, like there's an initiatory element to depression that we have to bring into the room, um, to initiate them, to make them move, to help them to almost see how debilitating it is when the depression comes forth. So it's, it's very initiatory of like helping them to see and then also giving them responsibility to say, you, we need to help you to, to start moving, right? So yeah, that is, that is a, that is a difficult thing.

I was— I think you guys read that book.

I'm not.

You've brought it up and I still haven't read it. I feel horrible. I was depressed.

I reread it like once a year, once for a couple years. Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer is a famous Quaker writer and kind of educator thinker. But I just— I was thinking about it because in this book he talks about his 3, like, really significant periods of depression in his life. Um, one, like, so deep where he couldn't get out of bed for, like, months.

Yeah.

And, um, something he reiterates a lot in the book is that depression is the ultimate state of, of disconnection, um, from others, from one's mind and feelings, all kinds of stuff. And so one thing he talks about is the importance of just, like, standing and being with someone who is disconnected. And he has this— I'm not going to do it justice, but he was, he was talking about, um, I'm just going to read you. He's, he's, he's in therapy with working through his depression with his counselor, and he says, after hours of careful listening, my therapist offered an image that helped me eventually reclaim my life. Quote, you seem to look upon depression as the hand of an enemy trying to crush you, he said. Do you think you could see it instead as the hand of a friend pressing you down to the ground on which it is safe to stand? Um, and that excerpt's not going to do justice, it's going to be out of context, but I've always tried to kind of like, when I'm not working with anxiety and someone is depressed, is to try to see that state as safe ground for them. Like, it's It's safe. You don't have to be anywhere else. It's a safe place. You're— you've ended up in this place because something has been, um, something has happened to your life to bring you, but now we're like, we are flat on the ground. It is safe here. And out of this place, like, how can we like move you towards connection? What does connection look like for you? And that could be something— speaking of Stop, Turn, Slow, You know, I— the, the slow, you know, taking the very next best step could be today you're gonna go home and instead of sitting in your room, you're gonna go out and sit in the living room where the rest of your family is watching a TV show or something. Yeah, just trying to move someone towards connection. But it feels— I think I find myself powerless and helpless in my own pain a lot of times when I'm working with depression. Anxiety is in my wheelhouse too. That's like, I, I know that I get it intimately. I wrestle with that. I feel comfortable in it. But, you know, and what's crazy is the overlap of anxiety and depression in terms of how things meet up. So yeah, even, even the Latin, the word angere, that means to choke off or to close off, which is the root of the word anxiety, um, has its roots in depression too, this idea. And so there's, there's some historical thousands of years back where those two overlap in some interesting ways. All right, that's my sermon. I'm done for today. No, I love it, people.

Yes. Well, and I think that too, that idea of like the next best step, or like even reframing the way that that hand is looking at them. I think in the office a lot of times with depression, like, I feel like that's a lot of my work is reframing. Um, in Nicole Zazowski's book— is that how you pronounce her last name? She— oh, her book. She might be like my RT crush. I want to meet her one day. Oh wow. Yeah, I also, I also read that book on the airplane.

Um, But which book of hers are you referring to?

Um, this one here, uh, What If It's Wonderful?

Yeah.

Oh, so good.

Yes, so good. Um, but she talks about, uh, I think it was like her own struggle with depression, and I think Terry told her like, what do you do for fun? Like, what, what's fun? And go do that. Like, that was essentially— I'm just—

sea glass, right? Go get sea glass.

I think it was the sea glass or like some, yeah, sea glass or like even trip into like New York City, that sort of a thing. Yeah, it was in the sea glass chapter. It was in there. Because I was like, oh, I want to go to New York City. I want to go get sea glass.

Let's go to New York.

Let's go book the flight. But I think that is something that I've been kind of trying with my clients that struggle with depression is like, okay, what's What's fun? What brings you joy? How can we do that? Like, that's your homework. Get creative. But the, the Achiever in me, my pain cycle kicks up of like, that's not enough. There needs to be more. You know, you need, like, there should be a whole RT, you know, structure for this. Do that instead. I'm like, go do something fun. So it was really, I think, helpful for me to read that too, of like, okay, even if we're just like reframing things in the room and helping see like, oh wait, that was joy. Okay, how do we find connection? What's the next best step, um, towards being in peace? And yeah, even recognizing that, that depression is—

you know, from an integration perspective specifically, I was thinking where I lean in in this area a lot too is just God does not move fast. I mean, I'm not saying in every instance, but I was reflecting with someone the other day about, you know, 40 days in the wilderness, 40 years in the desert, you know, hundreds of years in exile. Um, God doesn't seem to be in a hurry. And of course, I'm not wishing, you know, I'm not telling my clients it's gonna take 40 years, but there's something in the waiting where it doesn't feel like things are moving fast that God is at work. Or to quote C.S. Lewis in The Chronicles of Narnia, Aslan is on the move, I say. Aslan is on the move, even though it doesn't feel like things are happening right now in my life.

The eternal winter will end.

Yeah. And to try to sit with people in that space, that they don't feel disconnected in the midst of that season as they wait. And speaking of reframe, just to kind of reframe timelines and expectations. That because we live in a culture that's very—

yeah, yeah, yeah, very results. But, and I think that's like the pull for me seeing adolescents. Like, parents want results a lot of times. They want to see progress. And man, I hate those check-in calls with a parent where I'm like, what are you seeing at home? And they're like, not much.

Okay, good job, Amanda, on your job. You're not— you know, come on.

Right. And yeah, I think that is a really good point. Like, we, like, man, growth is not always, you know, A plus B equals C. Sometimes it is in the waiting and in being their connection point. Sometimes, like, my, I'm the only connection point that a kid has all week. And is that enough? My anxious self says, nope, you gotta get them doing better, get them further. And Man, what if that is where the Lord's working? That's a really good thought. Thanks, Eric.

Hey Lance.

Yeah.

I got the ultimate reframe for Amanda and her husband. You want to hear it?

Oh yeah.

It's like, so Amanda's going to go home later today and she'd be like, I've just been feeling really depressed and anxious for a while. And I was thinking a trip to Malibu in March. Where I can get out and surf and be in the water would be just the thing that I need. Yeah, like, what do you think about that?

I was thinking New York, but then I thought of the sun appearing. Yeah, like lighting up the waves in the morning as you can hear them splashing. And you can hear the hoots of the surfers having a great time. I'm there. I'm so there right now, bro.

I'm in. I can do that. I'm not afraid of homework. I'm in.

I'm not afraid of homework. I'm gonna go test this out. Next best step.

Next best step.

Hey, and you're home already. You don't have to go anywhere. You just walk out the door and he might even be there.

You know what I'll do? I'll go ahead and order some flip-flops on Amazon, and when they show up on the front porch, be like, make sure they're a lucai. We don't even have to go buy anything. It's just we're ready for the trip. That's what it is.

That's awesome. Any, um, Lance, I cut you off. I just— before that reframe, you were leaning towards the mic like you're about to say something really powerful.

Oh, I don't know. I, I was thinking about depression And kind of reiterating from you guys is like, another thing is to lean in on the season, that it will end. Um, yeah, and like, depression is a thing that comes to an end. There, there is a stopping point. Um, so I, I think sometimes like developing, like, you know, going back to, you know, Terry's thing that he's done with us with the, um, uh, parts of speech or um, writing devices. That's what it is, writing device. Um, the writing device of a soliloquy, you know. Um, you know, where you have your client like imagine themselves on that day. And on that day, you know, and I want you to go to that day where, where that day where the depression, like where the, where the sun comes forth and, and the snow starts to melt. I want you to go to that day And I want you to write your story on that day. And you kind of like build up the, like, through, through the turmoil and the horrors of this life. And as I think about how difficult it's been, but now the sun has lifted. And when you know that Aslan is on the move, like, what is that thing? You know, like, so you're like, you're developing that space of movement inside of your client of, of knowing there will be a day. Mm. You know, and when they hold on to that day, that there is still hope, you know, I think, you know, for us as therapists, we are the brokers of hope for the lost souls and for people that are stuck in depression. Like, that is that thing that we really have to help them to find is like, there is still hope. Um, so I, I always try and like think about different ways to help them to look at the season, or, or even to say, you know, if this is chronic, if this is where you're stuck, how can you make the best of it? You know, like, you know, like there's, there's elements that when you look at your pain cycle and how others react to you and everyone tries to make you feel better and all this other stuff, like you don't have to do that. You actually have some authority in the midst of the, the deep hand that's pushing you down, that you, you have some choice here on how you're interacting with your world. So anyways, so those were like my thoughts.

No, it's— I think in this book, 5 Days to New You— excuse me— I think, and I, I'm not gonna to waste our time looking for right now, but, um, they talk about Henri Nouwen and Terry Fleckson, you know, got to know Nouwen a little bit. And I think there was this question for Nouwen, it's like, if, you know, if, if one is depressed, how are we going to live in the midst of that? What does that look like to live in the midst of that? And, you know, my therapist said to me one time, I think he's reflecting on Ecclesiastes, there's a season for everything. And he said, hey, right, things are bad right now, don't worry, they're gonna get good. And you know, when things get good, don't worry, they're gonna get bad again. Just kind of like enjoy the seasons that you're in. Lance, you know what I'm referring to, that line in there?

Yeah, I was gonna try and look it up while you're talking, but, um, no, that makes me think of like just stewarding your pain well, whether you're in your pain, whether you're in the season of not pain and you're trying to process and and even prepare for the next season of pain, you know, like really build yourself back up. Like, how do we steward our pain well?

Yeah, that video with, um, Ronald Rolheiser where he talks about that, stewarding the pain, which Nicole obviously talks about.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I— anyways, I, I don't know where it is. Maybe Lance found it, but it's, uh, it's Brokers of Hope, Lance. It's a good phrase. Yeah, I like that. That sounds like a killer emo band too.

Oh yeah, they, they should be in Malibu. They should play in Malibu.

Brokers of Hope should play at the summit. Justin, if you're listening out there, Justin Little, you are our guitar specialist, emo playing music player, so Do you know Justin from Oregon?

I don't.

Okay, well, maybe he could put the Brokers of Hope together. He probably could. Hope he's listening.

I'll bake him a cinnamon sourdough bread. Okay.

Oh, I'm taking these notes to make sure I connect the dots and send him an email about this.

I can't find it. I know the reference you're talking about.

Yeah, but it's just, you know, How do we help people live and steward their pain and courageously in the moments they find themselves in? What does that mean to be fully authentic and human in the midst of depression, in the midst of anxiety? And for us to be that safe and loving connection for them in that season. Um, as we close up, because I know we all have therapy to do, I think, uh, yeah, any broker some hope. Any closing words, I mean, anything you want people to like check out or anything you want to say to anybody listening?

Oh, um, no, I mean, nothing insightful, just how thankful I am for this community. And yeah, I just love— I can't tell you guys, I guess I'm saying it to you guys, I can't tell you how many times I have been on my way to work knowing that I have X, Y, and Z sessions on my calendar, knowing that I don't know what to do, and I listen and there's an intervention, or there's a, you know, Brokers— there's something empowering or some, some intervention, and I bring it in the session and it's exactly like what the Lord had planned for that family or that kiddo. And so I'm just, I'm just thankful for these resources because it has truly changed the game for a lot of my work and for some of my clients. So I'm just thankful to you guys. That's my—

That's awesome. That means a lot, you know? And it made me think too, Lance asked a question, him and I, on the last episode, which hasn't come out yet, it's about to come out, but like, like a takeaway, you know, like from the today. And like what I'm gonna take away, actually, I'm gonna leave here and I'm gonna think about my animals.

Good.

Number one, my pain animal and my peace animal. Um, and I'm actually going to reflect a lot more on this depression piece because most people who are diagnosed with anxiety also are diagnosed with depression, you know, and trying to think about how to show up for them. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I think that's helpful. That's what I'm going to reflect on today. What about you, Lance? Anything you're going to walk out and think about?

Well, I found the quote.

Okay, read the quote.

So I'm gonna think about this quote. Um, this is in, uh, day 2 of the 5 days, so you can find your new self pretty quickly. Um, he says, Henry also— this is Terry talking about his depression. Um, he says, uh, Henry also struggled with depression for a good portion of his life. He was deeply spiritual, very successful, and committed to loving and doing well for others. Yet the dark cloud also hung over him. On a visit with Terry, Henry said, "You keep waiting and praying for depression to lift as if it is a circumstance that will change you— that will change. You will have to eventually change your perspective and ask yourself the question, 'How will I live my life if the depression never lifts?'" and nothing in life changes. How can you live with the hand that is pressing down? How can you live? Um, that's, that's a pretty powerful piece. Um, and then he, he later quotes, um, The Life of the Beloved, um, in here, and he says Here's the 3. Nowan says we must be willing to do 3 things: confront and reject the lie, tell ourselves and embrace the truth, engage others who will tell us the truth. Um, so that, that's where it kind of goes into with, with Nowan. So, you know, it's good stuff, good, good thought.

Gonna reflect on that.

Come on.

Yeah, what about you, Amanda? Anything you're gonna walk out and be thinking about today as you're doing work?

Besides the summit in San Diego, or besides how can I finagle my way to Malibu? Um, no, you know, I think, I think for me, um, as we're talking through, yeah, just like stewarding well and helping people steward, they're being brokers of hope, um, to some of my clients that are struggling with depression. I think I really— I, I have the, the, that, the Nowen book that he mentioned in there, and I kind of want to go find it because I really— I just, I love, um, like the way that broke down of like we have to figure out the lie, you know, figure out the truth, and then engage with people that are gonna help us to see the truth.

So good.

I think that, that third piece, I want to get— that's where I want to get real creative with my clients, especially because, you know, they're not typically like adults off living on their own. Like, they're— they have people in the same house with them. Like, how do we engage with people who will help us lean into truth, you know, and not just stay focused on our social media feeds or whatever? I— that's— I want to get creative. I might be thinking on that piece. I have that book on my bookshelf. I'm gonna go find it, um, and get— maybe take that one to the office with me. But yeah, just And what does that look like for different clients, different stages to surround ourselves with people who will help us lean into truth?

So good. As you rise like the Pegasus with my wings.

Yes. All right, people, it's been quite the episode. I've really enjoyed getting to spend time with you, Amanda. Thank you for joining us. We would talk longer, but like I said, we have work to to do. So, and she's got a sourdough loaf to pull out.

Oh, it is cooled and ready to eat now.

Oh dang, come on, come on over to Amanda Tipp's house. She's got some—

move to Austin. I make it for the team quite a bit. Come to Austin.

Sourdough and Malibu. Bring us a Malibu. All right, all right, people. Thanks, everyone. For listening. Yes. Episode 77.