Season 2 | Episode 79 | Trauma, Emotional Regulation and Learning RT, with Kaivon Asgharian

Lance, what's up, man?

Brett, what's going on, my brother?

Has our intro become so cliché now?

I don't know. I mean, maybe.

I like it. RO's always talking about it. So, but I'm just generally excited. I am excited. You know, we talk a lot. I am excited to see you every Tuesday and excited to see guests. Um, let's— we got a great guest coming up. I'll introduce in a minute, but let's roll through some quick announcements.

Let's do it.

All right, big breath here. Number 1, come on, you and I have our Anxiety Intensive. It's for male, uh, past— pastoral ministry leaders. It is September 23rd through 26th in a beach house in Encinitas, California. 6 spots only. Already have some signups. We are looking for a few more guys to join us. That will be really awesome. We're excited to do that. So if you're interested or you know anybody who might be interested, just have them go to the turningfromanxiety.com website and there's a link to our intensive. Um, we do provide scholarships too for people who are in need of that.

So yeah, we're very stoked about it. Please come and sign up. It's going to be, um, it'll be Rat and I, so this will be really exciting. Uh, and, and we're doing the people— we're doing ministry leaders. So anybody's in ministry, it's such a gift to be like— what's our— what do we say? Like, you know, pastors are so quick to recommend getting help, but Rarely do they actually get their own help. So, um, here it is. Get your help, bro.

Yeah, and this is the first intensive you and I are actually doing together, like co-leading. So that's going to be fun and exciting itself.

Yeah, I imagine it'll be just like the RT dialogue, but you know, I don't know, we've gotten— hey, I don't know what else we got going.

All right, second, Restoration Therapy Summit March 4th through 5th in Malibu. That is a Thursday and a Friday, all day essentially. Uh, we'll plan an event on Wednesday evening probably, or some loose, loose events for people who are in town. But all day Thursday, Friday, uh, go to the website restorationtherapysummit.com. It'll be in the show notes as well. We already have quite a few signups of people who've already registered to come up for the event. We expect it to sell out and it's going to be a great time. We're still updating things on the website. There are still speaker stuff that we're getting bios on and information as we finalize some ongoing details. So Restoration Therapy Summit, yeah, sign up for the summit.

Uh, there's an early bird special, so you want to get on it sooner than later. It will probably sell out. Um, but yeah, we're super stoked for that. Uh, one last thing, you guys remember Rob St. Hays was on here a while back?

Yes, I do.

We got the books. You can pair it from piece together. Boom.

Yeah, this is what they look like as they come, like, in the packages. And so I've been working through them, and, um, Lance and I are gonna spend an episode, uh, just talking about these journals. So great job, Rob. These are, these are beautiful. They're really awesome. We're looking forward to that.

Easy to carry.

Yes, easy carry. And what else do we got, Lance, that we're going to talk about another episode?

Oh, are we gonna—

yeah, just, just show it.

This is, uh, a good friend of ours, uh, who, uh, and, uh, Kayvon actually knows Gil. I haven't— I don't know if I've actually gotten to meet him yet, but we've gotten a few emails.

I've only met Gil in Zoom call. And he's talking about the project he's working on, which is this book that we're going to discuss at some point. The point is there's some cool stuff that people are doing in the RT community and who are really using— Just tattoos. Yeah, just using their creativity to bring RT to life in some various forms, and so we're excited to share those things. If you are one of those people or you know someone who's doing some cool things too, let us know.

So yeah, we will sell your goods.

All right, so our guest today, um, we're excited to have on the podcast. I'm not gonna even pronounce his last name, I'm gonna let him do that, but Kevon, who comes to us from Portland, Oregon, which I love the Pacific Northwest. My daughter's up at school in Washington, she just got back from Portland. She's like, Dad, I went to Powell's Bookstore, She's like, it was unbelievable. So she had an amazing time there. I don't know if she wanted to come back to Texas once she got off the plane and just got oppressed by the heat. So we have Kayvon, um, who's a part of this RIT community. Welcome, Kayvon.

Thank you so much, man. I feel so blessed to be here. Wow.

No, we're excited to have you on. So will you say your last name proper for us?

Yeah, my name is Kayvon Askarian. I'm an Iranian American. Um, Level 1 restoration therapist. I'm still in grad school at George Fox University. I've got 2 semesters left, and oh man, I'm excited to do therapy. Oh, it's just been a great journey so far.

And for those who aren't watching the video, you need to watch video because I am super envious. Yeah, of the beard. I really am. Like, I can't grow anything, and I just— when I saw your photo originally, yeah, I was like Lance is holding up a book of mine. It has a mustache on it. Um, he exudes wisdom.

So yeah, I don't know about that, man, but when I, when I applied for George Fox for the graduate program, I, I had, you know, a clean-shaven face, kind of looked like Rhett, um, just a little bit bigger. Um, but you know, the second, the second I got accepted, then I said, okay, I'm gonna grow my hair out and I'm not gonna shave my beard.

Wow, really? That was like— that's like, this is what I'm doing.

Well, my brother stopped giving me haircuts because he, uh, cut my ear and he was too uncomfortable to do it anymore. So yeah, I was like, I can't afford that, so I just— I'm just gonna let it ride.

That's great.

It's kind of like a Nazarite vow a little bit there. You just let the hair grow, man. I love it.

What's your brother's name?

My brother— I've got two brothers. Um, my middle brother Bobak, he's the one who nicked my ear. I love him. And I've got an older brother Kaveh too, and they both have, uh, children, and they live close by, and I've been in their lives, uh, my two nieces and nephew. And oh yeah, it's just a— it's just a joy to be with them.

That's awesome. It's okay, we're all about learning here, okay? Yeah, I think he looks good with, with the full mane. So I don't know, quite lion, lion action, I guess.

I've always admired, like, they just, like, you know, the therapists who, like, have the beard and the coat, and he You just need to be able to smoke a pipe in session and just look very like Tolkien, you know?

Yeah, I need like a cardigan sweater and like I need to borrow your glasses too, Rhett.

Yeah, totally. Well, hey, tell us a little bit about, um, you know, one thing that we're always curious about is your journey to RT. Like, how did you even get to RT? You know, uh, even before I met you, I'm like, okay, Pacific Northwest, so I have some suspicion probably how you entered RT, but Let the listeners know how this, how this came for you.

Oh man, I don't even know where to start the story.

The beginning.

The beginning. Yeah. At birth. No, I didn't know about restoration therapy back then. But man, you know, when I, when I really knew I wanted to become a counselor, there was some certain people that I really looked up to, like Viktor Frankl. I was reading in my undergrad, I believe the title is Man's Search for Meaning, and I was a part of a, like, a research group, and we were looking for values, or we were looking for values not caught in current research measures. And so he basically asked us, go read whatever you want and try to find some, some different values maybe you didn't know about. And so I was just reading Viktor Frankl's Experiences, and I'm just like, man, I've had a lot of suffering, and what can I make my meaning out of it, and how do I want to live my life going forward? And so I was really excited about Viktor Frankl. And then I got— I graduated from U of O with my BA in psychology.

So you went to Oregon?

And yeah, yeah, in Eugene, University of Oregon.

And that place is amazing.

It's amazing. Yeah, it is really great. I did my practicum there at Whitebird Clinic, which is a really cool community mental health clinic that helps just really people like the houseless population. And it's just really great. And so When I was there, I started learning a little bit about Relational Cultural Theory by Jean Baker Miller. I don't know if y'all have heard of her and her work.

No.

Jean Miller, huh?

No, so basically, I know very little about it. I mean, this was some time ago, but really, our relationships matter. No person exists in isolation, and what impacts and shapes our relationships, the culture that we're a part of. And so she really kind of like outlined, what is a good relationship and how do relationships help us heal. But I was still kind of confused on how to help someone else through their journey. And so as I started, uh, George Fox, I, I really got interested into narrative therapy. But I also had this personal interest in Carl Jung's work. Now, I don't know about you guys and your training, um, in graduate school, but there, there was really no talk about Carl Jung. And I thought, I mean, going in, I thought, man, everybody should know this guy. I mean, everything is so interesting and so deep. But there I'd be reading some of the books, or, you know, some of the books in that kind of field, and a lot of it I would have a lot of hard time really understanding what I was reading. And I'm just like, how am I going to use this to counsel? I mean, I, I just did not know. And so I don't know, there was some kind of, there was a bunch of electives offered at George Fox. And so we only get to choose, I don't know, maybe 5 electives during our whole 3 years at the program. And so you kind of have to really be picky and choosy on what you want. And so I was looking at a couple options. I mean, there was one that was embodiment, and I thought that was really interesting because that's not really discussed a lot. I think in a previous episode, you guys talked about your experience, like, like maybe embodiment was talked about for 2 minutes in the whole duration of the program. Yeah. And yeah, I think I got my 5 minutes of embodiment from Dr. Shah in one of his counseling basic skills courses. I, I took, uh, the basic and advanced skills with Dr. Shah, and this guy, we love him, man. When he walks in the room, everything kind of shifts. I mean, he just has this amazing presence, and he really makes people be known and seen and heard. And it's just like, man, this guy really cares about people. And when you're around him, you just feel better about yourself. And so I'm just like, yeah, I want any kind of class he's taking. Restoration therapy. What's that? Sign me up.

Hmm. So that's it. That's how you got there.

That's how I got there. And I remember—

yeah, yeah.

I remember in that elective on the first day was one of those Zoom classes, which I'm not too fond of. I'm an in-person kind of guy. Um, he, he asked us to— I mean, he had like one of those Pain and Peace Responses worksheets where you, you know, that's got the word banks, you know, when I'm in pain or in conflict with my spouse, I, I feel this. And so he asked us to go through that kind of individually and, and maybe journal about it for a little bit, and then he invited people to, to share it out loud in class. And so I'm like, I'm right in mine. I think we went for break and went for like a 30-minute or like a lunch hour break. And I'm still like turning these words around. Like I'm trying to find like the perfect 3 words that could capture my pain. And I don't know about you guys, but the first time I was looking at that word bank, I wanted to circle every single word. Like y'all don't know, like my pain, it's huge. Like it is freaking huge, man. I can't find 3 words, but I really could just kind of nail it down, and I really wanted it to be something really easy for me to flip later on, you know. So I came out with, uh, I think at the time it was unseen.

Okay.

Unsafe and not enough. And, or, or it was unworthy. See, I think I wanted them all to have that un in the beginning. So it'd be really easy for me to flip it on the other side and be like, no, you are seen, you are safe. You know, I, I like things to be very simple so I can't forget later. Yeah. And so, you know, he asked us to share, and it was just kind of like crickets. I wait like a minute, minute and a half, you know, no one's saying a word, and I'm just like, all right, screw it, I'll say it. And man, I, I voice it out I voiced the whole thing out, you know. I don't know if it was the 4 steps or if it was just like you're saying your pain words or what, but Dr. Shah, like immediately after, he kind of just like echoed back one of the things he said. He's just like, I can't remember exactly. He's like, "Kayvon, your presence matters. Your voice matters. You're not invisible." And like, I just got like goosebumps everywhere in my body. I'm just like, what the, like, This was just like such a surreal experience. And then like, people are like typing in the chat like, oh, that's so amazing. Like, oh, you were so vulnerable. And then people started sharing afterwards, man. Ever since that day, I'm just like, yeah, sometimes practicing the 4 steps is hard. It can be like the last thing I want to do. Like some days I just want to just sit in my pain. Like, I feel like that sounds really weird, but like, but man, I just get reminded of that moment and I'm like, It is worth it. It is a work worth doing to practice your 4 steps every day, day in, day out, man. It is just so rewarding. And then to have other people around you to speak that truth in you.

That's great, man. I like you. So before— I know. So before we talked about the— before we got on, we were talking about Kayvon's last name, and it means, uh, it's Asgarian, right? Guardian. That's right.

Yeah.

Um, and his name means bright shining star. So you think about someone who would feel unseen, um, unsafe, and not good enough, uh, or unworthy. You think about, wow, like, first off, we see shining stars, and then we also— stars have gravity. So there's this element where, like, what you do, like, brings us back to Earth. So I don't know, I, I was I think that does work good for you, man. I like that.

I love it. Thank you, man.

I love our work. I love our work.

Yeah, that got me emotional.

That's like, that's—

I could see like, I was just, I was like picturing you on the Zoom and no one wanting to share, and then like Dr. Shah stepping into that place. That's really powerful.

He's the best.

And so Simple. It's like not simple really, like emotionally, but simple in like practice just to be able to, you know, it's just, it's so wild, that process. So this is an elective that you're in. And so did you spend a semester then just kind of diving deep into the model?

Yeah, man. I read what it is, the purple book, you know, the RT, you know, the first one.

Classic.

You know, I had a question for y'all because, you know, that book is not only written by Terry, it's also written by Franz Pfeiffer— Pfitzer. And I was wondering, have y'all met them? Have, you know, have you gotten to know them? What was their contribution to the work? And I was just— I don't know, I was just curious.

So the story I know from Terry is Franz and him— so Terry was really involved with Contextual Therapy Um, and, um, he would do these, um, uh, seminars. He would actually go to Europe, and, uh, I think he was in Germany. And, uh, while he was in Germany, uh, you know, there's stuff that's going on in the contextual community. You know, it's just like any other family out there. We all have our, you know, stuff going on. Bozermani, nah, just getting older, I guess, or whatever community weird stuff. Is happening. But, uh, he and Franz really connected, um, tight with one another, um, during that time period. And, um, that's why they ended up writing that book together.

I think he—

did he also write, um, the new Contextual Therapy as well with Terry? To find— I don't think that—

I don't know, but I like— Lance probably knows more than me, but I've actually never met Franz in person, you know. Um, me either. Yeah, and, and he's actually, from my experience, a little hard to find material online. He seems like he keeps a little lower profile with some stuff. Well, Terry keeps a pretty low profile too.

Uh, yeah, he does.

You know, you don't, you don't see Terry on the social medias or anything like that. So that's like, that's a really good question though. But yeah, I don't— I've never met him in person. That'd be really fascinating to be able to do that. Yeah, I know Gary and his family spent some time over there in Germany, right, Lance? All of them?

Yeah, he would go there like every year, like doing seminars, um, over there. So like they were really involved together. Um, uh, but yeah, I think— I don't know if it's Europe going back and forth, but that's, that's the story I know. So the story goes, that book came out in 2018. Isn't that crazy?

Oh wow.

Yeah, we're not 2018, 2011.

The purple book is 2011. Yeah, I believe 2011 because we just hit like the 15-year anniversary, I think you guys were talking about.

Yeah, so crazy.

Maybe you'll be contributing to another, uh, book at some point, Kayvon.

I don't know about that, but yeah, so I really worked myself through that first book, that purple book. I read part of that advanced skills, but this was during the summer semester where they really condensed the classes to like 8 or 10 weeks, but they still expect you to do the normal amount of reading. And I'm just like, what? Like, come on guys, like, I'm not a reading machine, but I'll do the best I can. So around that time, or during that elective, I think Dr. Shah had a guest speaker come on, and she's been on the podcast before, Dr. Yun Hammer. Oh yeah, and she was really amazing. I mean, she was great. She was applying restoration therapy to, I think, uh, Eastern cultural context or Asian Americans, um, and it was just really fascinating to not just think about restoration therapy as this like really great framework to guide someone along and help them heal and keep it very kind of simple and structured But then here we can apply it to people with different lived experiences, not just, you know, white American typical people, but this could work for any kind of culture.

Yeah, yeah. And Dr. Hammer, we do know well. Lance knows her better than me. I think he's—

she's my professor back in the day. It was like right when she first started at Fuller, I believe, um, like within like 2 years of her starting. I was one of her pupils. So yeah, I had a lot of classes with her.

Yeah, she's great. So did you, as you're sitting there, did you feel like, um, I mean, did things kind of start to click for you in terms of like thinking how you could, because, you know, obviously you've been reading a lot and thinking, and earlier in the podcast here, you're like, we're talking about Carl Jung and stuff, thinking, how do I apply some of these things? Did things start to click with our tea of like, this is how I can practice.

Yeah, man. I mean, in that class, Dr. Shah gave us that, you know, understanding your pain and peace responses. And I just felt like this was a really great way to start the therapeutic conversation. Like, yeah, maybe, you know, people come in, they need to vent about what happened, you know, that last week, but a lot of the, the pain that we face, it's not something that just like came just this one time. Like, uh, Dr. Shosh, he showed like a clip of, uh, Sharon speaking, and it was, I think it was, you know, we don't have, um, we don't have one argument 100 times, or no, we don't have 100 different arguments, we have one argument 100 different times, if that makes sense. I think I butchered that, I'm not sure.

Yeah, you got it.

But I heard that and I was just like, oh my gosh, yeah, the, the, the family disagreements, the stuff that really causes me to just be weighed down. This is, this is stuff that's been happening from, for a long time. I mean, and it, and it all just traces back to that, to that pain cycle. I'm just like, there's so many times in my life where I'm just like, what is going on? Like Eric Ehle, before we got on, we were talking about this weekend class I was in and we were talking about nervous systems. There was a time where I was kind of like stressing out in class, like they were showing some clips and I'm like, I'm kind of in distress right now. Why am I so upset? And I started thinking about it. One of the words that come up, that's in my pain cycle. I'm just like, yeah, this is a, you know, this pain cycle, I carry it around with me all my life. And what am I going to do? Choose to stay in my pain and be sorry for myself and ruminate, ruminate, ruminate with negative thoughts? Or am I going to, you know, turn around and do the next best thing and do something different? That's what I love about Dr. Shah. You know, he lays out the 4 steps, but he adds a 5th one because we're in Portland, Oregon, the land of Nike. He says, you know, 'Just do it' at the end. That's the fifth step. And I really needed that, like, 'Just do it.' Like, just go over and walk up to someone and talk to them. Just do it.

Just don't say it, right? Don't say your action. Go out and do it.

I always do that. I do like step 4B.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll either— I do it or I'll— yeah, 'Just do it.' It's pretty funny.

That's—

I do that too. I'm like, and when I'm mapping it out in my office, it's, you know, after you follow the truth over to action, I'm, I'm like, not— yeah, let's do— what do you get? Don't just say this, like, what are you going to actually do next?

You know, let's do it now. Let's do it now. Yeah, show me.

Stand up in the room and do it right now.

Yeah, here we go.

Um, I just— because we were talking previously. I, I kind of wanted to— since you brought this up, I would— I wanted to kind of pivot here because I like, I like where you are in your journey in that you've been exposed to RT and you're working on it, but you're still like in grad school and you're— or you're still grad school, right? And practicum at the same time, correct?

Uh, practicum just ended, internships just started. So I'm in my 4th month at Eric Ehle Counseling Northwest. It's a private practice in Tigard, Oregon. Um, it's ran by Sharon Hale and her husband Will Hale. They use, uh, EFT, and Sharon is also a NARM master, um, if y'all are familiar with NARM.

Uh, I, I am. You want to say something about it though, a little bit? Who does—

I don't know enough. I don't know enough to speak about it. Maybe you can, Rhett.

I'm gonna like, uh, what's NARM? Yeah, I always, I always had— I always get the, like, the words mixed up, but it stands for Neuroaffective Relational Model, right?

Yeah.

Is that correct?

Okay.

Dr. Heller, which mind-body psychotherapy method created by Lawrence Heller to treat complex trauma, attachment wounds, and childhood neglect. It's kind of like with EMDR, I always get the letters— I get everything all mixed up in my head. So the reason I was— I—

this—

you're a perfect guest is I feel like you're learning a lot and you have good questions and actually good pushback that sometimes for Lance and I and others who have been in the model a long time, I think sometimes we can just be— well, I'll speak for myself— on autopilot with things and, um, Yeah, just be on autopilot. And so it's good to have some, like, questions about things or pushback or, or to have to pause and rethink, why, why am I doing this, you know, or to be challenged in a certain area. And so if you're open to it, I'd like you to say something about that workshop you're in and how the emotional regulation, co-regulation kind of came out for you.

Okay, is that good?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was in a psychopharmacology class this weekend, and the first half of the course was on interpersonal neurobiology. And we started get— you know, we start talking about, uh, co-regulation. And you know, that slide comes up with the co-regulation, and I, and I think about you guys, like, we're, we're the regulating the— you know, we're trying to regu— you know to wreck down the co-regulators. Like, we're about self-regulation. So my mind is already primed, like, what, what, co-regulation, what's this? And so we start talking about how, you know, just as, you know, on the podcast here, I think, uh, Ron Deal has said that at like age 9, that's when a child's prefrontal cortex gets a connection to the limbic system. So if we're asking someone younger than 9 to self-regulate we're just asking someone to do something they can't do yet because there's no neural connection there. And so it's just not as dense. It's not as dense. Okay, thank you. And so then when we, you know, have someone in therapy, then the— as an adult, the response is let's help them co-regulate. And so I got kind of curious and And I was just like, well, that's not what they say on the podcast. Like, the podcast says, like, we, we should self-regulate. And so the professor kind of responded to my question about, you know, like, what are we really doing here? And she was— I think she said something like, hypothetically, if someone who, you know, in their formative years, they didn't receive the sort of co-regulation or the, um, the parenting. Yeah, the parenting that they, you know, that they ought to. That there is no, um, neural connections that are very dense, like Lance was saying. So then we're asking someone to sort of self-regulate when there's none of that scaffolding supported there during the co-regulation or the parenting during the formative years. I hope that made sense.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So, and can I say one thing just to let you set it up, Lance? But I was also— it's just, I think it's worth noting the interpersonal neurobiology. I mean, that's a model that was co-founded by Dan Siegel, right? I believe. And I, I love the work of Dan Siegel and some of the best parenting books actually, uh, like The Whole Brain Child. Um, I love that Dan Siegel does that. So I just wanted to set that up in terms of what people are thinking about the model, that Dan, Dan Siegel is one of the founders of that.

Yeah, and I would say like the word co-regulation gets used, um, interestingly in a lot of different like literature, um, and it means different things. Um, so for instance, like in polyvagal theory, they use the word co-regulation, but it's talking about learning to regulate. It's in that realm of regulating oneself, um, versus like EFT co-regulation would be you're regulating one another. So, um, I think that's, that's important to talk about. Um, and, and then also I would say co-regulation— so I, I'm going to use— when I talk co-regulation, I'm only talking about people regulating one another, okay? And, um, co-regulation means that we're each regulating one another versus parenting would be I'm regulating my child. Right? Um, not my child regulates me. Um, so that, that's kind of like an important piece that I would, um, like kind of differentiate. Um, that I like— yes, we parent, which would be regulating our child to give them, um, the boundaries and things to help them to be able to engage in this world. Um, so your question is like, what if there is a complete absence of— is that right?

Yeah, if someone has experienced, you know, repetitive trauma, you know, like, let's think like complex PTSD, someone who's, you know, never had someone who was trustworthy, who was loving, you know, like we, like, let's say we draw up the pain chart and this client, this hypothetical, hypothetical client's just like, he's looking at all of these core components underneath love and trust and they're just like, yeah, I didn't get any of that. You know, what do we do there?

Yeah, so this is— I, I'm gonna talk curiously with you and then we can play. So I'm gonna wax and wane a few different theories as we talk. Um, one would be in the realm of, um, brief or solutions-focused therapy. Um, I, I, I, I love brief and solution-focused therapy because I think it's fascinating because they, they talk in this realm of like, if you know that, that you never got something, means that you actually knew that there was something. Like, when, when someone's like, oh, I never got that, means that inside of that person there is a resource that knew that there is another world. So even in operating in a total world of absence of Um, there is an inherent knowledge inside of every human being that we know that there is something better. There's a better way to do this. That, um, like in our makeup, like we are created good. Like if we're going— if we're gonna wax— I told you I was going to jump around. Like if we're going to wax in the realm of like spirituality, of like, hey, like God has made me good, there's a makeup inside of me that says that there is a better world, that I have worth, that I— there, like, we know that in, in a, in a certain space. So there would be— to me, I would say, number one, there is never an absence because there's always an awareness at some level for most people. I would, I would say probably very few actually never, ever, ever, ever experienced that. Um, maybe in the realm of slavery, um, like when you see how slavery, um, happened. But even then, I mean, there's still that element of, um, where, where that is given, um, to children, um. And I think— and, and this is where I think Terry would probably lean in with us— would be that this— when you have prolonged pain cycle, that is where a personality disorder kind of comes to life, right? All personality disorders would be, um, a, um, would be a, uh, story of pre-, like, childhood with full, um, you know, trauma in some realm or another. And that's why we see, when you look at all the personality disorders they actually play out a lot of the way that we look at the pain cycle, whether it's that— and, you know, we even have the word destructive entitlement. I mean, that's like Narcissist 101. Um, or you see the chaos, um, and escape, which would, you know, um, which, you know, or they go all over the place, like would be your classic borderline. Um, so, um, you know, or codependent, yeah, that you had dependent, which would be more of your, um, like high-level shame person. So I, I would, I would think that, you know, when, when we look at that prolonged stuff, then we're looking at personality disorder, which means it's gonna be a lot more work. But there is an awareness of— and I think it's important that we always maintain this belief that, um, people can change, right? Um, that, that there is a way, you know, that, that we can lean in, that there's, there's always hope, you know. I think So I don't know, I'm just throwing out— I'm kind of spitballing a few like ideas with us right now. What are you hearing and how can we link them together?

Right, you want to jump in?

No, I'm just listening to Lance. Like, this is good. Go ahead, Kevon.

I think that's fascinating what you were saying about personality disorders being like this endured pain cycle. I had never really thought about that, but man, it makes sense when— especially like as I was thinking about and I was re-listening to, I don't know if it's like episode 12, but it's the anxiety roundtable. You had Terry. Oh yeah, Tanner Hargrove on and a bunch of other people, and they were talking about like um, everybody has fear, but not everyone has this like ruminating anxiety where you're thinking about, you know, your, your anxiety thoughts like continuously throughout the day. It's like, yeah, someone with a pain cycle, their pain cycle may be brought up, let's say, 100 times that day. Or someone could have it like, hypothetically, it only comes up like 20 times. Well, the person with 100 times, if you think it comes out, you know, 100 times every day for a whole year, or let's say 20, 30 years. Wow, just think about the, the sort of, um, emotional weight that that could put on to someone that affects their, you know, thoughts, emotions, and behavior and really limits their possibilities. Um, wow. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it does. And I even think, like, so going to the original question of, like, so does co-regulation— do we need co-regulation then, right? It's kind of like the, the, the grasshopper— like, the— not the grasshopper, but, like, you know, like, the crux of the matter here of, like, is that the way out? And I would say no. Then all we're doing is we're creating built-in dependence, um, and, um, not actually liberating souls. Um, and our goal is to liberate souls, um, not just create, um, prolonged, uh, you know, uh, dependence. So I would, I would want to— it just means the training is going to be longer, right?

We're—

we want to continually help a person to lean towards, um, finding that, um, inner-regulating truth. You know, you think about um, when you're reading Frankl, you know, like, like his, his— he, he found that resource, right? Um, you know, when he was alone in that place. And, you know, just because you had that resource doesn't mean that you're allowed to— like, that you can't connect with community, and that's the only— but like, that being regulated as you connect with community makes a huge difference, um, for a person. So, um, Yeah, I always think of his story. Oh man, it messes me up. Um, and they just released, uh, these World War II— have you seen this on History Channel? Tom Hanks has like created this, um, uh, new, um, World War II documentary, and he goes into detail on like how, like what they did to the Jews. Um, and it is god-wrenching. And it just makes me think of Frankl, like, in the midst of all that, knowing this, like, horrible things coming towards him, um, and the way he was able to go through it all is just, like, absolutely amazing to me. Um, and part of that, one of his resources was just imagining his wife, um, and what, what he would say to her and how she got him out of it, even though she wasn't alive anymore.

So Lance, I'm curious about this co-regulation bit because I've got some clients there. It seems like, you know, during their formative years they didn't have that great parenting.

Yeah.

And so now it's been, you know, let's say 10, 10 weeks of therapy, and it, it seems like things are doing better, and they're better— looks like it involves some co-regulation. If you see this in the room and you have a couple like reporting more intimacy, more connection, but there's co-regulating going on and you're seeing co-regulating in the room, do you take issue with that? How often do you take issue with it? If they are talking about, they go and they hug each other's hands and they say, yeah, we had that really great talk last night. Do you just, just take issue with them? Like, you know, actually, maybe you should have done your 4 steps there and self-regulated in that moment. I mean, how often are you taking issue with that?

Or—

oh, I'm not going to take issue with that. I mean, I will, I will lean in and kind of help them resource in the moment, um, and then I'll, I'll use language around the realm of, so even if he doesn't hug you Even if you don't do the— get to do the, you know, um, even if it's still true.

So I will—

I, I won't take— I won't say what you did was wrong. What I'll say is like, and I want you to know, like, you're still a bright shining star even when that person, that client of yours walks in the room and says that idiotic thing to you. You're still a bright shining star, right? That, like, so I just want to tell you, like, you still are, you know? Um, does that make sense?

I, I don't know about making sense, but it, it feels right, especially when you drop your voice and you say it like that. It's just like, it's almost like, it's like I get in the Terry Wizard vibes. Like, you just, like, you kind of lean in And even on like a video call, you're able to just like drop your, you know, your tone and just like, oh man, it's just like honey pouring out. Just, oh God.

Just shake your head up and down. Yes. Yes, I am.

Rhett, what do you think, man?

Like hypnotized. Um, well, I'm glad Lance has got his doctorate because he's done a lot more studying in this area than me. So there's some things actually. I didn't actually— I like how you talked about solution-focused and the absence of something. The fact that you notice there's an absence of something is a realization that, that there is something actually, you know. Um, C.S. Lewis has got a quote about that. Sometimes I can't pull from my brain right now at the moment, but I, um, I was actually thinking about The term you use of scaffolding and like, I— this is where things get really nuanced. I think that is that if I watch a couple in the room, I think about my own marriage, there are times where we help co-regulate, or it looks like co-regulation from the outside. Like she's speaking truth into him. It looks like she's co-regulating him, right? For example. But what's interesting to me is like when you watch couples interact, a lot of times their ability to co-regulate one another or show up in that way is that it's because they're in a truth about themselves. They have it within them to know, like, in this moment, I want to step into this space and speak love into my spouse in some way. I want to encourage them. And so, I don't know, to me, it's just like, it's a weird dance of— I don't know that sometimes when I witness co-regulation, what I see is two people actually in their truth, feeling worthy and in their worth, what they want to do is show up for one another and in some different ways and to be present with one another. Does that make sense? Like, I don't see it— co-regulation is all this destructive stuff that, that they're operating, you know. And I— man, I'm totally rambling here.

Um, you're flowing, stay with it.

Think about those words in the book Boundaries where they riff off of Paul's language in Galatians 6 about bear one another's burdens Right. But Paul, like a half verse later, verse half later, says, but everyone is responsible to carry their own load, he says, right, or their own stone. And so I think in a relationship, we want to bear with people, want to be with people, but we want people to be equipped to carry their own stuff, right? And to me, there is some kind of mystery in that, that is hard to unpack. And so I don't know, I think some of the best relationships I see is that sometimes a person jumps in and helps co-regulate a person because they're just in that space, another person isn't. But, but co-regulating, to me, the co-regulating dynamic is not a sustainable dynamic long term. If that's, if that's what you— if the foundation is co-regulation, I just don't see that as sustainable because If you're constantly co-regulating a person— I think Terry may have used this metaphor before, or someone did in an intensive— but the person you're co-regulating doesn't have truth, isn't— can't get into that truth, all you're doing is throwing dry kindling into this blazing inferno. It's just, right, or a leaky can. You're just dumping and dumping and dumping. And so at some point, a person has to be able to emotionally self-regulate. And, and so I see, I see co-regulation as important components of the, the daimonism in a relationship, but not a sustainable thing. I also thought about who I know you've listened to, um, two of our colleagues, Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoya, who do a lot of work with children and It's interesting. I think they would say that they are able to help kids.

Oh, there you go, dude. I got these puppets that I just love them. Like, yeah, dude, I've got Lenny the Lying Lizard, and I even got Shalom the Peace Dove.

Yeah.

Yeah, man. I like it. Yeah, I love them.

Yeah, I think, I think they would say that even pre-9-year-olds, that, that they are able to help kids step into a truth. Now, that truth is obviously a work in progress, probably that's going to become more like robust at times. But I think we are seeing the ability for young children to, to grasp some aspect of truth, whether they have the verbal language to say that. Their, their actions, I think, would communicate somebody who's in their truth. I mean, I think about my own kids and, and watching them grow up and do things that I'm like, they wouldn't have the language of the pain and peace cycle, but they are like embodying something that is pre-verbal. Um, so I'm totally rambling, but yeah, no, Lance, you go ahead.

This is good though, because I think this is like where we lean into the, the basic like core needs of a human being, right? Love and trustworthiness, right? Um, I, I try to search the quotes. I don't know if this is the quotes you were thinking of. There's two different ones. Um, it says, if the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning.

Just as—

yeah, just as if there were no light in the universe, or bright shining stars, um, and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should, we should never know what it, what it was dark. Like this element of like, like we know what light looks like because we've seen the light. Um, and there's another one that says, as the desert first teaches men to love water, or as absence first reveals affection, like, or love, like, um, Uh, so I, I think there's this element of like, you know, when we look at the pain, like the core elements of what we do with Restoration Therapy, and I think this is when, um, the Mittens got excited, like this is the deep philosophical elements of RT, is like we are created for love and trustworthiness, like that's, that's built into our DNA, like that is what we're made for. And it's so deep. It's in our brainstem and in our midbrain. Like, it's so deep. We need it. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm with you, Rhett.

Yeah, I love that. You know, Rhett, when you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, what my nervous system needs. Like, let's say I'm in a panic or I'm in distress or I'm in an argument with a family member. That doesn't happen very often. But when it does, I'm just thinking about what my nervous system thinks it needs in that moment. And it doesn't always want someone who's cool, calm, and collected and how I imagine someone who's very trustworthy. But maybe I'm not thinking about that loving piece as much. But as Lance was talking also, I was just thinking like, Yeah, if I'm, if I'm less like super like upset and someone comes over to me is, is very, you know, kind and, and very, you know, very safe, sometimes I don't want that. Sometimes that's not going to make me feel seen, which sounds kind of weird. Like, I sometimes, my nervous system, it just wants like someone to like kind of freak out also and be like, oh yeah, Kevon, that really sucks, like that is upsetting. And then Like, I don't know, does that make sense to you guys, or have you, uh—

yeah, sometimes we want to be, um, we want our feelings to be, um, like we're right, you know. I think that that was peace, like we just want that to be right.

Um, yeah, um, yeah, as earlier he was talking about, you were talking about You said, oh, it sounds crazy, but I was like, oh, it's not crazy at all. The idea that we just want to sit in our pain.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just let me sit in it. Just give it to me.

I don't want to do it.

Misery loves company.

Yeah. Yeah.

I was going to say the other thing that I feel like the thing that we're also leaning into is us-ness. Like that's kind of like what you were talking about, Rhett, was— don't you think?

Yeah.

Yeah. I was trying to think of— I was thinking of my wife, who's amazing. Person.

And she's pretty cool. Have you— like, amazing woman.

She's great. And we've been through hard times in our life and worked really hard on our relationship. And I, um, it's funny, I don't think really in our marriage, like, I don't think about co-regulation or self-regulation. Like, I don't— it's not something I just think about, like, intellectually. And I think because— and I say that because I think we've both worked so hard on emotional self-regulation and the us-ness piece of coming to support one another, that almost co-regulating piece, that, that if— how do I say this, um, that once a couple starts talking about it, like, now that, hey, are you co-regulating? Are you emotionally self-regulating? Like, once you start having to have a conversation about it, like, it ceases to exist almost. Um, so when couples are stuck in conflict here and they're pointing out, you're not co-regulating me, or you're not emotionally doing your own work and self-regulating, it tells me that something is missing, that probably both people are looking for something from another person that they in fact are not doing themselves. And once they are emotionally self-regulating, to me, the co-regulating shows up in beautiful ways in that form of like us-ness. Yeah, um, that Lance is describing. Uh, but when a person is like, you, you have to do these things for me in order for me to be good, then I'm like, we're not in a good place, right? Um, it's controlling. Yeah, because I got my brain like thinking all kinds of stuff, so I can't— I cannot make sense today. So hopefully people listening will get something from my, my, my words. But yeah, it's right.

I feel like you're holding the, the space. I think that's what you're doing as you're like with this. Like, I think you're doing a great job.

Well, I just, I don't think about in my marriage like co-regulation, like she has to regulate me. I think about who, who am I and who has God called me to be and how do I show up in this relationship. And when I do that and she does that, the benefit is what we could say is co-regulating is really— Lance, you're right, it's more a form of us-ness. Yeah, I think in the, in the relationship. And I think it's helpful— we said earlier, Lance, too, like Dan Siegel obviously talks a lot about parent-child relationships where there's a— it's important to help kids, you know. And I think that shows up in his adult-to-adult work too. Um, but Yeah, it's just not a sustainable thing if we constantly have to regulate a person and they can't do the work themselves. I think you will find yourself exhausted. In fact, I use this metaphor— you can't really see my wall that great— but early on in my marriage, I felt like my wife, like, okay, I'm like a wall that she has leaning against the wall.

He was pushing against the wall. And I don't know if that's it, Red, or if that's Heather.

I'm, I'm the wall and Heather is leaning and pushing me up. She has to hold me up. Like, yeah, and you think about that position, that is exhausting for a person.

Sounds like a pain cycle to me.

Yeah, well, in both her hands, she's not free to even look at herself or take care of herself because she's so busy correlating me. And it wasn't until later, I think our relationship shifted where I did a better job of emotional self-regulation. She's able to not try to prop me up, which wasn't her job in the first place, you know. And then she can like focus on herself. And when she's focusing on herself and I'm focusing on mine, that it creates space for that us-ness to really come together. All right, I'm done.

So can we, can we talk a little bit about clinical application then of this kind of concept? So Yeah, let's say, let's say y'all have a couple and they're, they're having a good week. Say intimacy is up where, you know, they— let's say intimacy was just wasn't in the ballpark for them, um, but you still feel like their pain cycle is underneath their interactions, or you like, or you see some destructive entitlement in the room. But like, like I said, it's a, it's a good week, things are, are way better. Do you like have the pain cycle out there and reorient them, or do you kind of just like say, oh yeah, things are good this week, and, and just kind of ride the W, so to speak?

Uh, give me context of therapy. Are we like early therapy, late therapy, mid-therapy?

Let's say like 8 to 10 weeks in, which is probably late stage for you, but that's still early for me.

No, 8's good. I like 8. Um, what— how'd you answer that, Rhett? Uh, your client comes in, they're doing great.

I, I just feel like I could be the bad guy if I keep reorienting them to the whiteboard and the pain cycle and be like, oh, you see what you did there? That's a, that's a cope. Yeah, I mean, like, if I was the client, I'd be like, I want to take that whiteboard and go back.

I, I always want to highlight, I think, what a couple is doing well. Like, I think it's important when you're working hard and things have been hard to, to spend some time and energy in the room acknowledging what they've done differently and how that's impacted the relationship, and to, to, to encourage the growth, and to, as a therapist from the outside, to help show them the ways that they have made improvements. Sometimes when you're in it, you don't always see it. But I don't want to— because I've done this where I've had sessions where it feels like we're just talking about the W's and nothing else is really— it doesn't feel like we're making any progress in some ways, and, and we're just kind of riding the, the feel-good. And, and so I, I think I want that pain cycle, not just the pain but the peace up there too, because I think sometimes What I'll notice is that if you just focus on the wins sometimes in therapy, it could just be a form of escape or withdrawal from addressing the real issues. Like, right, couples feel really good. I mean, when you're having a good week, who wants to rock the boat, you know? Who wants to bring up the hard stuff? But if they're spending time and energy to be in the room with me, I feel like part of my job is to help them dig into the hard stuff. Let's acknowledge what's going well. You guys are working hard. Look at, look at what you've done differently. Look how you got out of your pain this week. But if you're coming into therapy, that tells me like there's still stuff we need to work on. And I don't want to, which is easy for me to do, I don't want to play into their pain cycle and also avoid talking about the hard stuff and avoid the conflict. Does that make sense?

It does. And it just— man, therapy is a hard job.

Yeah, I know, I know. I, I like that.

I think that's like, like, hey, let's not ignore it. Um, yeah, like, kind of give it like to, to allow for a moment of like wins and then say, okay. Um, sometimes when I have a couple come in like that, I'll say, oh, do you want— guys want to graduate today? That's like my— I generally, that's like my instantaneous response when they're like, we're great, it was a great week. I'm like, oh, are we graduating today? Is this the day? You know, I— because I always want to kind of lean into this idea of therapy is not meant to be long-term, um, for, for, for most of our clients. I think there's some that we get to hang out with a lot longer, um, and I love my clients. I wish I could hang out with them longer, but also respect the fact that they're trying to make money, um, like, and live. And they probably don't want to fund my daughter's, um, college, college education, um, but they do want to fund rents because they're— my daughter's 8 years old, so, um, but, uh, like, so I'll, I'll lean in and say, hey, like, are we— do we want to graduate today? Is that like— do you guys feel like you've reached that point? Um, uh, like, you know, here were your goals when you first came in, and I'll name their goals.

I have—

I always have on my cheat sheet, um, and I'll say, are you guys ready? Um, and, uh, generally I'll get a no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not ready. Okay, great, cool. So let's go back to where— let's go back into the work then. Um, so like, I like, I like to hold it in that, in that realm. When, when my client says they had a great week.

I'm going to dispel something on this podcast.

Yes.

Um, it's, it's— I think there's, I get— there's a perception, I think, sometimes I hear it on in conversation with people on the back end. Um, because you— because Lance and I talk about RT a lot. I, man, there are weeks I don't know what I'm doing as a therapist. It feels like And, and there are weeks I'll text Lance and I'm like, I shouldn't be a marriage therapist. Like, like, I'm horrible. Like, yeah, you know. Or I'll text other colleagues and there are weeks where I feel like I am— or months where I'm just not making progress for people. Or like, Lance and I will talk about cool interventions, but it's also hard sometimes in my own life to show up and do those interventions with clients and stuff. And so I just want to— I want to say that because, Kayvon, you got such good questions, but I want to be clear to people, like because you said it, therapy is hard. And I'm like, it is really hard. Like, people are dynamic, ever-changing, and what shows up in the room, like, just when you think you got a handle on things.

Yeah.

And I think that's why I love it, because it's so dynamic. But it also makes it very— there are days I'm like, I'm ready to graduate from being a therapist. Give me my diploma, Lance. So I just want to say that. So And especially since you're in grad school, like, I remember being in grad school, I was very idealistic about what I thought this is going to look like in my life and a practice and how therapy was going to go. And then you get into it, you're like, oh, it's not. There are awesome parts that are like, oh, this is how I thought, and there are parts like, not. But I think that's all the good stuff that like gets meshed together to create what— where God's leading you, you know?

Yes.

Um, so Dude, so true. It's a mess sometimes.

Yeah, there, there are heavy cases, there's heavy caseloads where we get stuck in this moment. I always think about whenever I'm doing an intensive, like, that there's like usually, um, one night where I like will look at my co-therapist and we'll be like, why? Therapy is the dumbest thing on earth. It does not work. Like, it's like this, like, you know this dark night of the soul of like any hope of anything that could change because you just run into the big, you know, it's all a charade or whatever. I think that's, that's part of, you know, because we see so much of the, you know, underbelly, we like— and, and you get these horrible things thrown at you where you're like, what, you were having an affair? You were on drugs the whole time? Really? Like, yeah, so I agree with you, Rhett. Like, like, this is— we, we are practiced people, but we, we certainly still need a lot more. That's why we do the podcast.

Yeah, and this is great. I love, like, how you have these questions about this and, like, that you just don't swallow RT whole and just not push back on things or, or 'Cause I think if RTs, if we're gonna continue to be a thriving community, we have to continue to like challenge things and ask questions and practice them. And I think it's a lot of the newer people too coming in, right? Which is really helpful for, uh, us who've maybe been in a little bit longer cuz we can kind of narrow-minded.

Yeah.

And that you were like, hey, walk this out in practical application.

Right.

Yeah.

There has been some times where even I fall too hard into RT and like the framework out of my own pain cycle. Like, I'll just be like, oh, we got to keep this really structured. And then I'll, you know, try to do— try to find, you know, the regulating truth. Well, now I'm misattuned with the client because they're not even in a trusting or safe space with me yet. And here I'm trying to do like, like peace charting or, or something, you know, a little bit down the, the road, but they're not even feeling seen yet. And so I love it when, when you guys recently have said on the podcast, like, as a therapist, you're trying to foster an environment of love and trust for the client. And that's just something that I'm always reminded of before my session. I'll always do like a very quick little prayer, come Holy Spirit, come. And I just think about, you know, I think it was Rhett who said that, like, just try to provide some love and trust for this client right in front of me. And hopefully then I'll be able to read the moment right to where then I can bust out some of these cycles and help them try to gain some new understanding and awareness about these patterns and practice putting on some new ones.

Dude, that's good. Yeah, I'm kind of aware of our time and I just love that. I also want to end on that.

Well, let me say too, I really do like just— I, I love that you took that class. I, I love the work of Dan Siegel. I know both Lance and I, some of his books like The Power of Showing Up, um, the Whole Brain Child, uh, Brainstorm. Man, those are Yeah, what I love about Dan Siegel is his emphasis on attunement with people and being in tune. And I think, man, when we are in our peace, we are just so attuned with people, you know? And I really think— Lance and I talk about this a lot— like, we want other voices that are outside RT that we can connect with and integrate with that speak truth. That we can use their stuff and apply it, you know. And, and the interpersonal neurobiology is a, is a cool model. Um, so, all right, I messed up the perfect ending there that you want to leave it on. So, no, I like it, Kevon.

I like it too. I like it too.

So we'll put all this in the show notes. You're up in Portland.

Yeah.

And @heal, huh?

@healcounseling.

Yeah, yep, I'll put that in the, in the show notes. Um, and if people want to reach out to you, is that cool?

Yeah, yeah, that would be great.

I can, I can, uh, put your email in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

And he's on our Substack. He's like our most commenting person on— I know, I was like, who's this guy who's commenting a lot?

And then I went, I'm like, oh, sweet.

You think I'm the biggest fan?

Well, you know what, I just looked up, I'm like, is he right? Episode 12 was Anxiety Roundtable. And I'm like, yep, it was.

Incredible. How do you know what episodes they were?

Yeah, I always—

so good.

Yeah.

And we, man, we love the Pacific Northwest and this excited what's going up in that community up there with everybody and Shaw and Wilkinson and J— and and Justin Little and everybody. That's a cool, beautiful part of the country. So we're glad that you're a part of that.

Yeah.

And will we see you at the summit?

I wish, man. I'll still be in school and school's on that week. So I'm just a little bit too worried to sign up for something that I may miss a class and not graduate on time. So maybe next year.

I can talk to Dr. Shah. I can see if we can pull something off.

Oh, that could be cool. Let me know what happens, Lance.

Okay.

Yeah. All right, well, people, it's been a lot of fun. Kevon, thanks for joining us and bringing the energy. Like, I, uh, I, I— Lance used the word gravity earlier, that gravitas. Like, when you're talking, I'm like, oh yeah, this guy's got this. Feels good to be in the room with you even though we're on screen. So thanks for showing up that way and bringing that to the episode today.

Thank you so much for inviting me on. I just feel so blessed and honored to be among the saints. Awesome.

Cheers.

Take care, people.