Season 2 | Episode 84 | Noe Rivera, RT Therapist & Director of Relate Strong at Pepperdine

Lance, what's going on? Wow, it's good to see you, Rhett.

Episode 84.

Whoa, 84? We need a few more.

Yeah, we're cranking it up.

Hey, 16, and we'll hit 100.

Let's run through some announcements.

Okay. Side note, Clint just hit 200 with his podcast.

Oh, Clint Davis Podcast. All right, we will put a link in the show notes to Clint Davis's podcast. It's a good one. Yeah, 200. All right, he's consistent. Love it.

Game on.

All right, Restoration Therapy Summit.

Dude, be there.

March 4th through 5th at Pepperdine. Our guest will probably— he'll be helping boots on the ground probably with that. We'll introduce him in a minute. But March 4th through 5th, we will probably do some stuff early that Wednesday before Wednesday evening people will be gathering. So probably some, um, you know, unofficial events and activities. But this is the last month coming in October to register early bird. Once November 1st hits, prices go up. So if you have any thought of attending, please go over there, early bird registration, there's student registration, et cetera. And so far so good. We have a lot of people attending. We were kind of surprised already how many signups we have this early on. So we're excited. Website is still coming along. We're still finishing up the complicated CEU process with all the speakers we have. There's about 24 to 25 different workshops on top of the main stage talks and everything. So restorationtherapysummit.com, go register. We'll put the link in the bio or the show notes. Also, Lance and I, we changed our Turning from Anxiety intensive from September because we'd be there this week, which we're not.

Like tomorrow.

Yeah, tomorrow.

We decided to move it to January.

Look at this face. This face is already like—

Yeah, we were just having some complications and, uh, people signed up, not signed up, people signed up, not signed up. And then we ran into some other issues with, uh, just scheduling. So January 13th through 16th. Yep, that is a Thursday through Saturday. Um, no, Wednesday through Saturday in Encinitas on the beach. Awesome beach house. Uh, we're gonna have, uh, have essentially availability for 6 men, and it's geared towards men who are in— who are pastors or ministry-type leaders, focused on that. So we're excited about that.

No offense to the women.

Yeah, just—

We love women ministry leaders.

Can do a lot of different things when, um, you're just focused on a particular group of people. So we're excited about that. turningfromanxiety.com, go over there and register. There are scholarships available. Lance, talk about training.

Hey, it's pretty wild. Um, I was looking, we have hit, we're gonna hit like all of the US here. Like, well, the important parts. I mean, I guess there's other places like Ohio, but who's up there?

Um, Corey Page is shaking her fist at you right now.

We love you, Corey. Um, but, uh, Jason Wilkinson just did a Level 1 training. He let me come in and say hi to them, which was really fun. Up in PNW. And then we have a Level 1 training coming up with Nicole Zasowski. And Eric Salwin has— Nicole's is in— do you have the data there?

Yeah, it's October 23rd, 24th in the New York, Connecticut area.

Nice.

And then Eric Salwin's is in Dallas, October 16th and 17th.

Do you know anybody in Dallas, Rhett?

I know a lot of people. Yes, but so does Eric, so I bet his will be full.

Yeah, that guy is super popular. And then, uh, I think I was looking at the registrations. It looks like, um, uh, Megan's coaching training is pretty much full already, but maybe you could beg to get in there. She— her coaching training is really popular, so if you can get in to see it, it's pretty amazing. Um, and then I am doing a Level 1 training November 13th through the 14th up here in North County, San Diego. Love to have you guys come out here to San Diego.

And Lance, Michael Cox is November 6th and 7th.

Oh, is it Michael Cox? Did I get the wrong day?

No, you got yours as well. You both have them that month unless something has changed. So there's 2 in November. You're doing November and Michael Cox has a November. But we can circle back later if there's a specific issue.

No, I feel bad. I, I think I scrolled past it. You're right, 7th in Austin.

Yep.

Oh, he's already got some good people signed up too. All right, dang, that's gonna be a great one. You should definitely do that one as well. But if you can't make it to Austin, come To California, baby.

All right.

All right.

That was really dumb. I fault. I apologize.

Rat.

What else we got? That's it, man. You can introduce our guest who we're excited to spend time with today.

Hey, yeah. Today, this is pretty exciting. Like, this is, um, like sometimes we have devolutions and other times we have evolutions, right? Um, and, um, a while back, um, Sharon Hargrave started, um, working at the Boone Center for the Family. She created this amazing material, um, and, uh, called Relate Strong. Um, it started out with a name that was Strong Marriages, Successful Ministries. They decided, hey, let's up it a notch. They called it Marriage Strong. Then Relate Strong, um, was finally birthed. And we love Relate Strong. We love the material. And then Comes along DeeDee, who takes her spot at the Boone Center for the Family. And DeeDee, she lights it up. She goes all over the place sharing the love of Relate Strong. And she evolved Relate Strong to the next level. Um, if you ever go on the website, they have this really awesome material that she helped create. Um, I forget what it's called, but if you go into the Boone Center for the Family, which the link should be right here, um, uh, there is, um— you know what I'm talking about, Noe? The little, like, the one-day, um, workshop one.

Yeah, we have workshops, like a one-day workshop.

Yeah, so she created these Relate Strong one-day workshops. It's like such beautiful material. If you ever want to talk about the pain and peace cycle, you got like awesome handouts handed— like, actually a little book that you can teach from. It's amazing. Love DeeDee. And now we have A Fuller grad from 2018, Noe Rivera. Um, very stud of a guy. Um, and, uh, yeah.

You gotta live up to this stud, the stud naming now.

This is good. Well, and I'm excited 'cause you're actually talking at the summit, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll be doing a breakout. Yep.

So yeah, we love Noe. We're excited for Noe. Noe comes Like, there's people that come with a little love, and there's people that come with a lot of love. And then there's people that are extremely loved, and that would be Noe. Um, whenever I hear DeeDee say your name, she like has this like extra little bit of heart attached to it. Noe, I'm glad you're here today. Welcome to the RT Dialogue.

This is— I'm definitely excited to be on this dialogue with you guys. This is great. Yeah. I love how you guys mix it all up with great material and the laughter. And Rhett is— he is already advertising our material, which is great.

Yeah, this is where I met Noe at actually back in June. I went out there to redo my Relate Strong training because, you know, it keeps getting advanced and more and more material.

Evolving.

Evolving, there you go.

We evolve.

So yeah, I just wanted to say this is some of the stuff Lance was referring to. And that's when I met Noe in person. And, you know, we're kind of possessive about restoration therapy, right, in many ways. So it's like when that Relate Strong position was open, we're like, man, it better be somebody who loves Relate, who loves RT as much as we do. And so, Noe, I'm super glad it's in your hands.

Yeah. No, thank you guys. And I am a— I'm a lover of Relate Strong. And, uh, but— and it comes from Restoration therapy.

That's right.

And that is kind of my bread and butter. And I've been doing that in my, uh, my practice, my private practice, for about 9 years now, almost 10 years. Um, and just been doing it with clients day in and day out, pounding the pavement and learning more about it and seeing lives transformed. So it's a huge answer to prayer, and I can share more a little bit later on kind of how I came into restoration therapy, but Yeah, I love it. Love the bread and butter of it.

Yeah.

Well, actually, I know we kind of have some idea how you came into it since you're a Fuller grad, but like, tell us about your journey to RT and what was it? Because I think Lance and I talk about, Terry talks about, there's, there's something that just like hooks people eventually, like that moment when you're like, okay, RT is what I want to do, right? What was that for you and what was your journey like?

Yeah, it's actually the most pivotal part, I think, of my whole story in the past 10 years of my life with this journey of doing counseling, and is this exact part, which is— so I was actually on the mission field, and I was a missionary for 6 years from 2010 to 2016. I came back to the States in 2016, and it was during that time that I I realized as I was doing a lot of fieldwork myself and then leading others on trips around the world, and then for about 3 years I lived in Guatemala in the final 3 years of my 6 years, and it was during that time I realized I was doing a lot of somewhat lay counseling and helping of people, and it was great. I loved it because I think my heart is to build the church, and my calling in life from God in large part is to shepherd the flock, and a lot of that shepherding is sitting with people and giving counsel and listening and trying to listen well and give direction, but during those years of sitting with lots of missionaries and missionary leaders, I realized I have tools, but I think I want more tools, and they need more tools from me as well, and felt like I kind of hit some maxes and capacities there and some ceilings. And I didn't grow up with knowing what counseling was. In fact, counseling wasn't even a word that I understood what it meant, or therapy. I didn't even know the word therapy was a word. I thought it meant physical therapy when you come out of the hospital and you get physical therapy. I didn't know there was a mental health type therapy until I learned about the BBS in California, and they call it therapy in California rather than counseling.

Therapy for the mind.

Yeah. And so it was during my years on the mission field that I started to ask the Lord and ask myself, if I were to go back to the States, because I felt like God was leading me back to the States, what would I do next? That was a big question. And after sifting through lots of different options, the top option ended up being to get more tools to help the church. The main tool that I felt I could get was some kind of psychology degree, some kind of counseling degree to really hone my skills in helping the church and leadership. And then that's when I discovered, oh, there's this thing called therapy. And in California, they name it marriage and family therapist. And I felt like, I think this is what God is leading me to do. So I came back to the States. I was already older. I think I was 34 or 35 or something.

Wow.

And went back to school and went to Fuller, and I was the old guy in the back of the room with all these 21-year-old, 22-year-old female graduates out of Biola and APU. And here I am in the back, like, not knowing what exactly is this whole counseling world and this professional world. But the main thing for me was when I felt God lead me into this counseling world, was I didn't go to become a counselor. I went to find a tool to help people with— so not only to get counseling, but a tool within counseling. So here I am, first year, and I'm going through the classes, first semester at Fuller, and I took a class by Terry Hargrave, and I think the class was marriage therapy, and he started to talk about Restoration Therapy and Pain and Peace Cycle. And my spirit just, it just latched on. That was the hook. Something in my spirit felt that confirmation from the Lord of years of praying into this, that this was the tool. Like within the tool of counseling, Restoration Therapy was the tool to share with the world. And a tool that I felt personally I could latch onto myself because it has all the language that I love to use Anyway, and it gave great meaning and foundation, and it made things make sense in my brain. I had to kind of organize thoughts and feelings and behaviors in my head. And this was the best tool that I could learn, that I learned when I was at Fuller, that really made most sense to me, and a way that I could package it as well within counseling and within doing ministry work. So right away within that marriage therapy class, I just, I got hooked. Now, Terry will tell you probably a little something different. I was one of his students in the beginning. That would, like, kind of buck back at him. He would be teaching and I'd raise my hand and be like, but wait a minute, when you said our agreement to the truth is the most important, more important than God's belief of us, I was like, I would— I was the one in the back raising my hand like, Terry, you're talking crazy here. What is this stuff? So it took a little bit to understand it, but once I really understood it, I latched on and I haven't looked back. And so I was fortunate enough to do the live 2-way training with him as my practicum. And that really actually just totally changed my world and my counseling skills. And he's tough. He confronted me a lot. He really, he would, he really is a direct and wise trainer. And he's not afraid of feelings. He will just kind of go for it and let you know what you need to learn. But I needed that. I needed that because here I am, older kind of guy, and I needed some of my old ways to be challenged and learn some new ways. And so I really appreciated that. So that's kind of what led me into it, was really God already preparing my heart and guiding me to look for a tool, and then finding this tool. Just, I've always never regretted it. I've always been like, wow, this is actually the tool that I wanted.

It's awesome.

Yeah.

Who is your partner in FL, like when you're doing the live practical?

Oh yeah. Uh, it was Kay, Kay Nam.

Oh, Kay.

Nice.

Yeah. Kay, she is there now at the university still. Um, yeah, she's, she's doing well.

She was in my doctoral program.

Yeah. I love that.

Yeah.

She's great. I, I gotta say when Terry kind of, uh, co-put us together. At first I didn't know what to think because we weren't like, we weren't necessarily the 2 people that sat next to each other in classes. Yeah. But immediately I'm like, oh my gosh, Kay, she's amazing. And we, she was great to do it with. I absolutely loved it.

I mean, she'd be a fun partner.

Yeah, she was fun. Yeah. And we kept it light. We kept it easy. She's fun. Um, yeah, she's real natural with people. So yeah, she was great.

Cool.

Excuse me. Sorry, coughing on the mic. Uh, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you, do you have a good Terry story in your, uh, training at all? Because Lance and I always are like interested in people's specific trainings. You know, we all have some different stories that were like kind of stick in our brains, were really helpful for us, maybe difficult at the time, but kind of changed, life-changing for us.

Yeah, I mean, I have, I have several. I think for me, the one I always go back to is Um, doing 2-way live supervision can be very nerve-wracking. And so I'm sitting with a couple with Kay, and we're in the counseling room. And the way that Fuller has it set up there is there's a window, and it's one of those only— you can only see into the couple's room, but the couples can't see past that window. So of course Terry's on the other side, and you know he's watching, and with the rest of the team. And here I am, you know, with Kay, and we're giving our interventions, we're doing our thing. And I was— I think we were one of the first ones to go, but I just remember this time we're sitting there and I'm thinking, I'm like, I'm doing pretty good work here. You know, my own ego is like, oh yeah, these are good questions. And next thing you know, I hear the door open. And he walks right in. He pulls up and he does it in his real calm, slow way. He pulls up a chair, he sits next to us, and he leans forward and he's like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. And it was just, it was one of those moments where I'm like, oh, the master has entered the room. The Yoda is here to speak. Like, Noah, you're getting trained in front of your people. So it was a real humbling kind of moment. But for me, that was one of those moments of like, oh, this is like, he's serious about this. He really wants people to do better. And at the risk, he will even want the people to get what they need, even if that means interrupting the therapist, because it's not about us. He's not here to preserve our ego. He was there to help the work advance with the clients. So I'm sitting there, and as he kind of takes, he takes the pain and peace cycle paper in front of the couple and He moves it and he starts to guide them. And he says, okay, but I actually want you guys to say this. And then he starts to challenge them. And then he kind of leans over to me and to Kay, and he's like, I want you guys to ask them this question. This is the question that we need to work on right now. And he redirects us in kind of a real gentle but firm way. And then he gets up, puts the chair back, walks back out. And then me and Kay take our deep breath, like— Okay, here we go. Let's do this again. So it's just one of those moments where you're like, okay, this is, this is a Terry. He knows what's going on. I need to be a student. My ego has to be checked at the door. Yeah. Powerful moment.

And yeah, that's so great. I, I remember Terry walking in the room and it was like one of these, like, Both like horrifying and extremely exciting moments. Like, the horrifying part is like, great, I blew it.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, I'm not— there's something I'm not doing right. But then the exciting part was to see how Terry could take like this moment or whatever was going on in the room. He already knew what, like, how to guide the client to go there. And, um, to, to get them to this place that they were so desperately needing. Um, and yeah, I, I still like long for those days when I had Terry at the door.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, those were, those were really like just huge eye-openers. Like, oh, you can do that in therapy? I didn't know you could do that.

Right.

Whoa.

Kind of break some of the rules. And I love that he would just break some of those traditional rules. Um, yeah. And I, even as like you're saying—

None of the ethical rules.

Yeah. Not none of the ethical or legal rules. Right. But some of those like unspoken, let's be proper and use a certain tone of voice or this or that. It's like, you know, the work for him matters more than anyone's ego in the room. Um, he really wants advancement, but to this day, because he interrupted me several times over the year, And to this day, like you said, I actually, I picture him when I'm having a moment where I'm feeling stuck. I picture him coming in the room and giving me advice, like in my mind as I'm giving therapy, like, what would Terry say? And I have these like quick, I guess these quick prompts in my head that he gave me over the years, the few years that I was with him there, of things that he specifically gave for me that how I could be a better therapist. And Those are what comes to mind. So for instance—

Yeah, yeah, good.

Yeah, so one of them is he would tell me, Noe, you can be long-winded, you can talk too much, talk less and ask the question. And so there's times when I'm talking and I'm realizing I'm using my talking as a therapist because I'm trying to find my question or find my words, and I hear Terry telling me, just ask it. Just ask it. Like, just ask it. And so I love those moments where I kind of hear him walk into my head. Um, they're really helpful as a therapist for sure. Yeah, it—

yeah, I do Level 2 training. I find that when I'm doing Level 2 training, like, for pastor types, not like missionary type people, like, we tend to get into like preaching with our clients. Or like we get into teaching mode sometimes. Like, totally, just, just get in there. They don't need to hear a sermon. They got plenty of those on YouTube. Or, um, you know, just, just help the person.

Yeah.

Did you— I appreciate you sharing that. That's, uh, yeah, it gives me a little anxiety thinking about the door opening, but then also like the relief of being saved also.

My hero!

Yeah, it's awesome. Did you— at what point did you decide, hey, I think I'm gonna go into therapy then? Because I mean, I know you're still involved in mission work, but it sounds like at some point you made like a pivot of, this is what this thing looks like, and I'm gonna go get some tools to help. And then it sounds like you start to transition into more like, I'm going to become a therapist and have a practice. Like, what did that look like for you?

Yeah, it was quite the journey, actually. I mean, it was a lot of kind of wrestling and some pain there with God and surrendering some things. I think it started when I realized that my dream of becoming a missionary and living overseas, that I wanted to keep doing it, but I sensed God saying, like, you fulfilled that dream. And once I felt that door close or starting to close, and I really started to ask, then what would be next, God? I don't know what is next. And that was the— it was like a both/and journey of having some options, but also doing kind of what Abraham did of, go, and I'm not going to tell you what's next. Like, just go. Like, I'm closing the door to your prior land. There's a new land. You don't know what it is yet, but take some steps forward. And so when I was in Guatemala, my final year there, I didn't know it was going to be my final year, but I started to sense it was. And I had a list, and I started to somewhat create a list of what could I do next. And I have a degree in business from APU. I worked in human resources for, you know, a number of years. I did some accounting work. So I had options and I had a list, and counseling somehow went on that list of, oh, here's something I wanted to possibly do when I was in college, but the past 15 years haven't led me to it. But it landed on the list, the shortlist. But when I left Guatemala, I left with no job back in the States, and I left with no home. I left with no place to land. So I talked to my mom over some months, and I was like, Mom, can I land at your place? I was single at this time, and it was during that time in my mom's small extra bedroom. She's got a great house, and there's this bedroom that I stayed in. It was about 3 months that I was praying with the Lord, and I didn't know what was next. And so I took an accounting job part-time. One of my prior jobs, like 10 years ago, they had said, hey, we got some accounting work we can have you do again. And it was during that time that I started to actually look more seriously at my options, and God kept leading me back to the counseling option. It just, like, on a heap of a pile of things, it rose to the top. And it was probably the most scary option because I had not pursued anything related to counseling. I knew human resources, I knew accounting, I knew missions work, I knew kind of management work, but I did not know counseling. But when it rose to the top, the scariest option, I knew there was something about it because usually God calls us to those scary options, and that was a scary option. And so it was, you know, and Fuller, it was between that and APU because I went to APU, but God was like, I want you to go to Fuller for some reason. And kind of a cool little side story with it was I told God, only if you're going to pay for it will I go to Fuller because I have zero money left from my missions time.

Yeah.

And if you will pay for it, then I'll go. And funny, kind of cool story is the Fuller deadline had passed for registration, and I emailed the school and I said, hey, I still want to apply, but I don't know if I can go if I don't get a scholarship. They're like, well, you got to apply to see if we can get you a scholarship or something. So I apply, I get $0 in scholarship basically. I think they gave me like $50 or something, but And it was $40,000 for those 2 years. And I told God, well, I can't go. And so then, but at the same time, my FAFSA came back, or one of those forms you fill out to the government, and it came back that said I qualified for exactly $40,000 in loans. And I was upset with God. I'm like, I don't— I didn't mean loans. Like, that's not you paying for it, God. Like, that's still me paying for it. Like, what are you talking about? And so I had this dilemma.

And it's like, you didn't specify.

He's like, you weren't that specific. And it was just this moment of— that was the last day I had to tell Fuller if I was going or not. And my mom, she was gracious. She was amazing. She basically looked at me and she said, this might not be how you expected God— for God to pay for it, but if this is a step of faith, you need to take the step of faith. And my heart knew I needed to take the step of faith. So I signed up. They accepted me last minute. I was like one of the last 2 people accepted. And I signed up for these loans. And fast forward, so I had also previously before my missions work, I had worked many years in the nonprofit world so that I could have my undergrad loans paid off because I still had my APU loans. Well, all of my— I was able to roll over my Fuller loans into the undergrad loans. By doing that, I was able to— let's, uh, I think it was 2 years ago. So 8 years or 6 years after I left Fuller, after working in the nonprofit world basically for the past 15, 20 years, and lots and lots of phone calls to the government and the federal student aid, it was about a year and a half or so ago, I got the letter from them that all of my undergrad and my full $40,000 from Fuller was paid off.

Wow.

And to me, that was God saying, see, I got you. Like, I paid for this, even though I didn't know that prior. Um, I thought him paying for it was going to be in cash before I started school, but it took a journey for me to get there. Um, and so that was, that was confirmation, um, that I made kind of that, that right decision before God.

That's awesome. Uncle Sam to the rescue. I'm glad to know that my tax dollars helped you out.

Well, thank you, Lance, for—

next time I pay my taxes, I'm gonna be like, this helped out Noe. I love that.

I love it. Oh, it's so good. I will— if you— I will take you out to coffee and we will— we will make it.

No, you know, I'm happy. You keep doing the good work, man.

Yeah, it— yeah, it was such an amazing answer to prayer. So, and that's what's given me confirmation that I knew God had a plan. Which is great.

That's cool. And you're using the tools that you got. Come on, somebody.

Yeah.

How did you start? You know, so what does this look like then in terms of, do you go and like open up your own practice here eventually? Are you with an organization? Like, what's the next step in that journey for you?

Yeah, I knew I wanted to focus on doing kind of Christian counseling and for leaders and pastors and missionaries. I knew eventually that's where I wanted to get to, like to use it as a tool for the church and for the health of the church. And so, but for California, you have to get all your hours. So when you're in school and graduating school to get officially licensed. And so Terry was actually the one I had several kind of one-on-one mentoring office times with him. And he told me, he said, Noe, you're gonna get to where you want to go. But make sure and get licensed. And if you can get licensed as soon as you can, because you're older, you don't have time to waste. So he said, go get your license. And so I had an opportunity. I was working at a— when I graduated Fuller, I was working at a Emmaus Road Counseling Center with Life Pacific University, which is a great counseling center. But I was collecting my hours there kind of slow. I wasn't building my practice kind of fast enough. And an opportunity came up to work at Pacific Clinics in Monrovia. And Pacific Clinics is part of DMH, so the Department of Mental Health. And that was not my lane. I was like, I don't want to work, you know, for the public, like public service in a way. And, and, but this was another one of those God moments where, and Terry walked into my head and Terry was like, this will get you there a lot faster to get licensed. Um, so long story short, ended up working at Pacific Clinics and I got, I got hours really quick because—

Yeah.

When you're working for DMH, they will give you as much work as you want. And I was an FSP provider, full-service provider for teenage boys at a clinic, a child intensive unit clinic. So I actually went to the young boys' homes and the teenage boys' homes and did family therapy and individual therapy. And I mean, we're talking serious cases, working with police and working with school administrators and violence and all of that. And so working for that actually got my hours really quickly. And once I got my hours though, I felt that release from the Lord. Okay, now it's time to use this for your purpose that I had felt God call me to. So I ended up leaving there, and this was during the pandemic, and I decided I'm going to open up my private practice. So I just, you know, I like business, so I love just Googling, how do you open up a private therapy practice?

Wow.

So I just built it from Google and just, you know, got my name, got the DBA, did all that, and then Started kind of spreading the word just through emails, letting people know. Didn't really do any advertising besides Psychology Today. Did that, but really just letting some colleagues know and started collecting a few clients. I got like 2 to 3 clients and then 5 or 6, and then they spread the word and you just kind of slowly build. And that took me about 6 months to a year to build it to the number that I wanted because I wanted about 12 to 15 clients.

Wow.

so that I could still leave myself room to do other endeavors that I had in my heart. And so once I kind of built that after a year, then I was able to do that, but it was all on Zoom initially, and then eventually I rented an office one day a week to see people in person. And I advertise it specifically as Christian therapy for pastors and leaders and males. 90 to 95% of my clients are males, and I do marriages as well, couples, but just a few. And, you know, so I think it's been an amazing kind of journey to see that God is actually, for the past 6 or so years of my private practice, that he really has allowed me to do the very thing that I set out to do and that I felt him calling me to do, which has been amazing.

That's awesome. Yeah, those are— what a great experience too, like just working at a DMH place. And just, you know, learning to manage, you know, speaking of anxiety, learning to manage one's anxiety in the room and navigate all of those pieces, you know, is so important. Where does Relate Strong and like Pepperdine start to play into your story?

Yeah, great question. Um, so when I was at Fuller, I got to also know Sharon. Terry's wife, and I'd never had a class with her, but just by knowing Terry, and we would go to their house to do like some dessert times, and just I got to know Sharon a little bit through that, and I would share my heart with Terry and also with Sharon that my heart was for the church, and that's not every therapist that goes through Fuller. A lot of people have their own callings like to certain populations or certain People groups and, you know, therapy lanes. And my lane was kind of like the church Christian body type lane. And so, yeah, I just shared that. And then years later, after I graduate, about 3 or 4 years later, this is maybe about in 2001 or 2002, I get an email from Sharon. And she says, hey, Noe, I'm at the Boone Center with Relate Strong, as you might know. And We have this new grant that we can actually use to take Relate Strong to the Churches of Christ on the West Coast, and we're looking for therapists that know the RT model to be our church liaisons in a way. They later became known as Congregational Care Consultants, and so she's like, would you like to come to our initial You know, thinking, think-take, thinking, think-take group of what do we do with this? So I came and we had a meeting about me and about, I don't know, 15 or 20 other people that were RT people or pastors that knew the model. And from there, that's where I met Didi. I met her a little bit after that, and that was awesome. And me and Didi started to have conversations, and she just learned my heart for the church and how I love restoration. Therapy, and I was local. A lot of the congregational care consultants were up in Washington or Oregon or San Diego, but I was one of the few here in Los Angeles that really had a heart for the church and Relate Strong and Restoration Therapy. So Didi was like, hey, come to one of my trainings, and maybe you could even help speak at one of them. So I came and I helped speak at one, and then from there it just snowballed. She would invite me to other ones. Other Relate Strong workshops and trainings to come and help speak, and then eventually to do the Marriage Ministers Enrichment Program as well. So basically, DeeDee kind of roped me along and voluntold me to, hey, come help me present and speak. And so I've been doing that for the past 3 years. And then recently, as DeeDee has now stepped into the chancellor or the chaplain role of Pepperdine, she's like, well, you've been speaking and doing these trainings, would you like to step into this in a full-time capacity. And it took some prayer and some obviously asking God, but yeah, I got confirmation that this was my next step. So that's kind of how I did this. And it fits perfect because ultimately, when I went to Fuller, my goal when I learned about restoration therapy, Pain and Peace Cycle, my literal— and, you know, this is the literal thought that came to my mind— everyone in the world needs this. Like, that was literally the thought, was like, everyone in the world needs this. And so now being at Pepperdine, being able to take a psychoeducational model, like, it's a lot more simplified. Um, it's not the therapeutic model. This is the, you know, the educational, let's teach you the material in the kind of a real simple format. This is a package that can be taken to the world, um, because it can be hard to do one-on-one in therapy to kind You know, scale it. So I'm excited for the ability to see this scale, which we have a new thing coming out that's going to help with that. Um, a new program, which I can kind of tease there.

Are we making announcements today?

Yeah, I, we will, I will give a preview announcement if you guys would like.

Yeah.

Jump. What is it?

This is the RT Dialogue where all cool things come out.

I mean, this podcast does reach a global audience.

So, you know, I love that you guys are at the tip of the spear already. I'm just coming on your— I'm coming on your coattails here.

That's right.

What's the story? Hopefully coming out early next year. Right now, we call it the User Login Platform, but it's going to be a website within the Pepperdine Boone Center for the Family website. And what people can do is it's an on-demand course. So you don't have to come anymore in person to learn Pain and Peace Cycle and Relate Strong. You can take a video series course that myself and Didi have taught, and you can get a certificate where you will now know your Pain and Peace Cycle through an online course.

Cool.

And so this will allow anyone from anywhere in the world to— if you have a computer and internet and a desire to learn this model, you can actually learn it through this on-demand course, and then we also have a second training if you want to learn how to lead this for small groups, which is our day 2 that we currently do in person. So it's going to be an actual certificate that you can get for these, for the workshop to learn it yourself, then the training to be trained to lead it to small groups. So we're excited for this to come out with the videos. We're currently in the editing phase of all the slides and Um, doing all of that. So it's gonna allow this to be spread to any audience around the world. Um, and then now with AI, people can probably take that and have it, um, translated to their language even as they're watching the video. Um, and we already have the workbooks translated into Spanish, which is great. So the Spanish audience around the world can, um, can have workbooks to go along with it. So, um, yeah, so we're excited for it.

That's awesome.

That's awesome. Yeah.

I was— Lance, when did you do— or you and Jennifer do Relate Strong or Married Strong or Strong Marriages Successful Ministry or whatever that was called? Like, when— how far does it go back for you?

So we were actually— I think we were— I don't know if we were in the— yeah, I'm 90% sure we were in the first training, which was where— how to do it. Oh gosh, it would have been like 2012.

Okay. And you guys did it together?

Yeah, we did it too. Well, we did the training together, um, and I had done Relate Strong with Sharon, or Strong Marriages Successful Ministries.

Yeah.

Um, at Fuller, because when I was at Fuller, I was like, any opportunity I can get, I'm gonna take. So she, she let me join her as, as a co-therapist, um, in, in the Relate Strong, and it was so great. She was just absolutely, uh, magnificent in the way she would You know, she, she has such a, like, hard story, but the way she can make her story relatable and connectable for everybody was amazing.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, that's when I did it, and I got to see her in action a few times. And then, um, eventually I started doing them down here in San Diego, um, which was really fun working with lots of different pastors, because it was mainly designed to work with people in ministry. Um, so that's what we were doing initially. It was, um, but yeah, so in the training, this, this training that, um, Noe's talking about, the first training that we ever went to, that's where I showed my pain cycle to Jennifer for the first time.

So 14 years ago, yeah, around 2012, because I was— because Heather and I, we did Married Strong in 2016 at Pepperdine with Terry and Sharon. And then somewhere between 2017 and COVID, when I was doing the ministry workshops at Pepperdine, we did Relate Strong.

Yeah.

And then I went back in June to redo it. And Relate Strong was kind of the framework I used when I first started doing executive coaching for the first time, because it was, it was the easiest non-therapeutic model to put into an organization and corporation to kind of like help people navigate, navigate relationships like in a corporate setting. And I'm just sharing this all for context because, Noe, I want you to kind of— I don't want to assume everybody knows who's listening what Relate Strong is and why it's important.

Yeah.

But I want to say that Lance and I, like, I think this is huge to our shaping of who we are in terms of restoration therapy and in our own relationship and marriages. It gave my wife kind of the first framework of pain and peace cycle that we use to today. And so tell people exactly like what is Relate Strong in its current form and, and make a pitch because I want everybody who's in the RT community actually to get training. Like, why should people get training?

Yeah, no, thank you. It's— so Relate Strong is the psychoeducational format to the main tenets of restoration therapy, such as pain and peace cycle and us-ness and emotion regulation and, and how to have strong relationship. So it— what it does is it takes a lot of the main underpinnings of restoration therapy, and it has boiled it down to— we have about 3 main foundational teachings that before we teach people their pain and peace cycle or show them that, we will teach them these main teachings such as us-ness and love and trust and sources of truth and sources of pain and why it's important for relationships. And then we get into, now let's uncover your personal mapping of your pain cycle and your peace cycle. And what it does is within hours, someone can understand the main tenets and walk away with their own first look at— now this isn't the deep look at it, but it's the first look at their pain and peace cycle. Or their marital pain and peace cycle. And the power of that is it's like such an infusion and strong preview to what you can go with the deepest of depths with restoration therapy. So if someone wants to even learn way more, they can go into therapy and get further coaching with it or therapy with it. But this is that first look to just be introduced to it. And—

Is that this book, essentially, the first one that you're talking about? Okay.

Yeah. So that is what we call the workshop. So the Relate Strong workshop is where you can learn this.

And it's literally like, I think, 9 AM to like 2 or 3 PM with like a lunch break, right?

Yeah, it's 9 AM to the first day. I think we do 3:30.

Very well done too.

Yeah, on Pepperdine's campus.

Yeah, it's on Pepperdine. In fact, we have one coming up that I'm going to be doing, um, with our director here, with Kelly, and we're gonna be doing it on October 22nd and 23rd. That's a Thursday and a Friday. Friday. Now that Thursday is just if you want to do the workshop, um, or if you have someone in your life that they've never learned this, like you said, you know, Rhett or Lance, like your spouse, like this is your first time telling her. So you bring a spouse, we give discount codes, you know, reach out to me.

It's very inexpensive.

Yes. Yeah, we subsidize it so that can be really low cost, low entry point. It's cheaper than having your initial therapy session where you don't even tell the therapist your, your stuff. You're just telling them your background. I mean, Literally for $50 or $100 or so, you can come and learn this yourself.

It's insane, guys.

And honestly, like, if people are able to— I know finances are different for everybody, but if you can get away with your spouse for a couple of nights, and you don't, you don't have to even stay in Malibu. I know Malibu's expensive. You can stay right outside Malibu, right? And you can come in campus all day at Pepperdine and like be trained in a way that will change your relationship and eat dinner there in Malibu and I mean, it's a— it is a beautiful experience.

Yeah, it really is. And it's, it's such a, um, a relaxing yet emotionally powerful experience because when you can learn a framework like this, it can possibly change your life and how you have relationships and how you conceptualize your arguments and how you conceptualize your pain with people. For literally just a few hours at Pepperdine's campus, We also do have an online one. That one's in November, but you can go to our website, and that's going to be the power of this user login platform is you won't even need to— if you live in Nebraska, if you live in Florida, you can actually now in the future and hopefully coming year, you'll be able to log in and do this program. But of course, there's something about the in-person that we love, of course.

Yeah.

Like you're saying, come and make it a weekend, make it a few days with your spouse or with yourself. The beach is right here. Even myself, after I do the workshop, what do I always do? I plan a few hours to go to the beach after dinner, and I'm like, I'm gonna do dinner, hang out at the beach, and let everything I just learned again soak in even more. So it's like the best kind of bath you could ever take.

And there's some really good fish tacos there. I mean, let's just be real, Malibu, when it comes to fish tacos, you're in good company. You're like, I think there's like at least 6 or 7 great choices in any budget you want. You can go like, mm-hmm, or you can go low. So, and you're not going to be wrong. It's so good.

Yeah.

There's a passage in 1 Timothy. I think it's like 1 Timothy 3 or 1 Timothy 3:14 or something where Paul's like saying, I long to be with you, but for now I'm writing a letter.

Hmm.

Um, and I have a friend who actually will be on our podcast next, John Dyer, who talks just about the importance of like, like an embodied experience, you know. And so we have these tools that are important. Like Paul wrote a letter, he couldn't be there in person. Um, not everybody can be in person. They can hop on this New User, they can take the online program, and that is amazing experience. But I just want to say there is something I think important in fast technological world of just when we're able together as a, as a body, I think is so important. And this is, you know, so I love that you're doing both. I love that people can access this amazing— because I do think it's life-changing. And I love that people can also experience the relationships in person.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where—

Lance is looking up the verse, I think.

Like, which verse are you talking about?

He's like, let me double-check this.

I always have to fact-check Rhett. You just never know.

It's like, which Bible is he reading? Yeah. And as you guys know, we're getting into this AI technology age as well that is having a huge impact of where we— through social media and the invention of the television, and we're becoming less and less connected. Yeah. And with our actual presence and something about eye contact and body language. And so I always say the, the optimal format of anything in life is always going to be in person. Anytime you can get in person with anything is going to optimize connection, relationship. And then we have all these kind of level 2 or level B, you know, like online. We could do videos like we're coming out with, like an online course, you know. We could do online trainings. We can do like even this podcast, which is great.

Yeah.

But imagine if Rhett, Lance, and me were sitting right now with some cup of joe in an office together. Like, that would change the dynamic, even sitting around like some couches. And so, but now these are great formats though that we get to do this.

Yeah.

So I am all for that. And I think that's why we get excited. I'll share this one last thought of like, when we get to go to heaven, it's not like we're going to be on our screens and we see Jesus from afar. We're going to get to fellowship. with Jesus in person and with fellow believers in person. There's something so powerful about in person that we cannot ever replace. So I love that, Rhett.

Yeah, yeah, it made me— I got an email this morning from Moody Publishers because my book was with them, and they were warning us that there's all these fake emails going out to authors and scams. It's all AI-generated. And they were saying, this is why we're having our in-person gatherings a lot more, because the need for like an embodied experience, you know. And so the tool is great, but I love that you guys are also still meeting in person. I think that's why the summit is really important, that we try to gather as a community every couple of years also to do that. Do you want to say anything about the summit and about Relate Strong or your role in that? Because I think that's important as well.

Yeah, we're super looking forward to this and with you guys. So we're hosting here at Pepperdine along with the Graduate School of Education here and Psychology. It's called GSEP, Graduate School of Education Psychology. So us and them, we're hosting, we're obviously going to be using the Pepperdine facilities, which we're really excited about, and the spaces here, and also just allowing ourselves to be available to the RT community. Of course, we want to share the Relate Strong material and let, you know, all the attendees know this is material you can use within your churches or small groups, but— and we're also helping with the backend. Like right now, Didi, she's helping a lot with the backend of— with all the speakers and setting up the workshops, and so it's going to be like a rich infusion time of learning, but I think what I'm probably most excited about is the embodied experience of relating strong with other RT people and other pastors in ministry, you know, like being able to actually gather in the same space and be excited for what God has done and what he will do. So it's going to be a gift to be able to host that here and play a role in that.

Are you speaking? I haven't even looked at all this stuff yet. Are you doing some presentation stuff on Relate Strong there? Can people experience you? In a workshop?

So we're not going to be hosting an actual like workshop, but who knows, now that you mentioned that, I'll talk to Deedee about that. Maybe we can operate.

If people want to relate strong to—

right, yeah, we did one at the last summit. They definitely did it there.

It might be worthwhile. We have a few. We have 2 workshops on how to take Relate Strong into churches and communities. So there's those kind more instructional if you want to be a leader.

Can you hear Didi's voice in the background?

Don't add more things to my plate right now last minute.

Right, and this is where I'm like, so Didi, how about we do this? Yeah, my talk isn't even gonna necessarily be on relate strong per se. It's gonna be on considerations with the Latino community and restoration therapy, and I'm excited because I get to do that with my wife. We're gonna co-present on that one.

Cool.

Um, but as far as the Relate Strong, we're definitely gonna be giving some kind of, um, pitch or, um, you know, introduction to it in some of the, uh, main, uh, sessions, hopefully. So, um, yeah, so people will be able to learn about it.

Lance, I feel like I'm hogging the conversation here, so we got, you know, about 8 minutes left. Anything you wanna ask or jump in with?

I was—

I like over here, I have the original materials, like Wow. Down there somewhere.

Yeah.

But my wife's the one that organizes this room, so I always get in trouble if I mess things up. Um, and when I get in trouble with Jennifer, she's like, you moved this. It's not like she, like, is abusive or anything like that.

Right.

That would be me with my wife. I'd be like, so I noticed this was moved. Did you need that?

Yeah.

Well, the big thing is I would pull it out and not put it back. That's where I get in trouble. Like, Lance, just put it back. Um, Which puts me in my pain cycle, and then I have to do my 4 steps, right? Because I feel like a failure. Um, well, I was thinking, like, with our last bit of time, I always like to make sure we have some, like, therapeutic, like, zest. I mean, yes, sign up for Relate Strong. It's amazing material. Um, you know, so tell us, Noe, like, what's something exciting you in the therapy room right now?

Hmm. I think in the therapy room, what I've seen over some time is the power of vulnerability is continuing to be there. And I think it's even growing more as a necessity because of the disconnect happening because of increased social media, increased screen time, and remote working. And And it's getting harder and harder, I think, for people to, to know, where do I have real, genuine, vulnerable relationships?

Mm-hmm.

Who can I talk to? And a therapist obviously is that space. But I always tell my clients, I'm not meant to be your only or your best space of vulnerability. Let's build a community around you that you can have embodied vulnerability and share with. And, and I think that's getting harder and harder for people to know how to do. Um, and so I just think that the power of a therapist right now is beyond what any of us probably could have imagined 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. We are that one space that the vast majority of Americans are going to for vulnerability, which is beautiful. But I don't think that's God's purpose, is that it's only isolated to a room with one-on-one. And I believe that He wants the church as a whole and the Christian community to have shared vulnerability and learn how to do that well. So that's why I love the RT model, because it can give people language on how to do that well with one another. But I just think when we can have vulnerability, we're going to recapture part of what has been lost in the past 30, 40 years of just the technology increasing. And I think that's what a lot of young people are That's why they're anti-AI often, is because they're realizing it's replacing human connection and human vulnerability and messiness. And so we don't want to insulate from messiness and put too many Band-Aids on it. Let's actually be messy with people. And I think the more that we can promote vulnerability and shared humanness is going to be a place— it's going to be a win. Um, and that's what people trans— I think they get transformed by that. So.

It's a reminder as therapists too, not to hand over our uniqueness in terms of what we're called to do with clients in the room. Like, you know, every day I'm— I get solicited new tools that will take over my practice, you know, from taking all the notes to doing everything, you know. And I think people can get— I think therapists can get seduced into that and to forsake What you're saying is what we have, the gift we've been given, is to show up and to be vulnerable and be present with people. And that's going to be a huge differentiator, I think, in the future in terms of the work that we do.

I love that. I mean, even going back to, you know, Rhett talking about, you know, Timothy there, I think one of the beautiful things about Paul is he doesn't Like, he gives advice, but he also owns his story. Like, you know, this thing I'm in chains for, like, my suffering is this. Like, you know, we were suffering even to death. Like, like, he's owning— like, like, bro, this is hard work, man. So I think, I think that's like when we lean in. Um, I, I find that like when I, when I talk about Doing the 4 steps, um, like when I talk about it, like, this is the trick, you know, do this, um, versus like, this is probably one of the hardest things that for my wife and I to do in our marriage, um, and but when we stop— And I still remember the first time, like the first time she ever went through her 4 steps with me was after Relate Strong training, Strong Marriage Successful Ministries, back in the the day, she said her 4 steps on the way home. And that changed so much for us. Uh, and when I talk about using the 4 steps in that context, about how it changed in my life, and not, you know, overdoing it, but, but just owning that this is not easy, but it is liberating. It's amazing. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. Yeah. And the, the power of shared story and shared humanity. I think we all want to be a part of a story. We all want to be part of the epic journey. And we don't want to live isolated and alone. And loneliness, as we know, is one of the greatest diseases right now happening in all of humanity, is people feeling alone and isolated. And, and the antidote to that is, let's get back into shared relationship and vulnerability and togetherness. And it's going to be messy, but it's beautiful. And I think that's where we're going to find we get out of this epidemic of loneliness and isolation that can lead to so many issues. So good.

Like the Beatles said, come together right now.

Come together right now.

Noe, you got a lot of things going on. So We'll put up in the show notes, like, you got, you got multiple websites with, like, cool stuff happening.

Yeah, organizations.

Yeah, director of Relate Strong. Um, if people wanted, could they send you an email if they were, like, interested in Relate Strong or have questions? Would that be okay as well?

Oh, for sure. Send me an email at noe.rivera@pepperdine.edu. I know you guys will post all that.

I'll put that up there. Noe.Rivera. R-I-V-E-R-A.

Yeah, email me there. And then I have another ministry called Ministry Transitions, so reach out to me about that, and a nonprofit for counseling for missionaries. So reach out to me for any of that.

What's the other one besides Ministry Transitions? There's another one.

Missionary Mental Health International. So that one is missionarymentalhealth.com. Okay, yeah, we started that counseling for missionaries. So if you want to give your RT skills missionaries around the world, let me know.

Man, listen up. If you are a student and you want to help people out, yes, you just found out a great tool right there.

Yeah, and it's somewhat not regulated, right? Because we— when you're not operating in America, you can kind of give your services around the world.

Yeah, and coaching relates to the coaching therapy model.

Actually, it's self-regulated.

Yes, very. Yes, and country-specific regulated.

Yeah.

Oh, but I get it. Hey, I'm a little slow now.

I get it.

Self-regulated.

Because that's what we're about here.

Well, on that note, it's been fun hanging out.

Yeah, you guys have been great. Love it.

No, I look forward to seeing you again. And, um, hey, if not in March, maybe sometime before. Um, but I hope you're doing well and really excited about this new position you're in. I think we're thrilled in the RT community that you're at the helm there. It's super exciting. Um, and you— it's a long— like Lance said, it's picking up the mantle from some great people in Sharon Hargrave.

No pressure.

And Didi Meyer.

So don't mess it up.

Yeah, yep. It's— hopefully God will do a good thing. Yeah, but big shoes to fill from both of them.

But it's awesome.

You'll do great. Great. Yeah, no thanks, you guys.

All right, guys, good to see you today. Take care.

All right, bye-bye.