Season 2 | Episode 85 | Kamusta ka? -- Cultural diversity in therapy, athletic performance, and all things RT with Marriage and Family Therapy Associate, Kim Agramon-Bai

Lance, what's going on?

Rhett, my man, dude, hey. So this is gonna come out later, so I'm either gonna— like, today I'm nervous.

Okay.

Um, and a few days from now we'll see how I feel, but okay, the Padres are in the playoffs.

Okay, so you're— so in a couple of days, next week when we get on a podcast, we'll either be completely happy or completely devastated.

Yeah, I'll either have like a message for myself, like when I listen, listen to the podcast, I'll be like, Lance, your nervousness was all in vain. That's probably gonna be true no matter what because When we get out of the playoffs, my life gets so much more relaxed. But then when we win, I'm so much more excited. So I'm going to be happy no matter what. Okay.

I'm glad. I'm glad you got that out there, Lance. Remember, stay in your peace.

Peace. Peace.

Padre peace. All right. Hey, this is episode eighty-five. We're cruising along.

We are.

I think we'll hit our goal of a hundred by the end of this year, which is exciting. Yeah, and, um, I'm excited. It's got 100 episodes, you and I, the last 2 years. Hopefully there's some good content in there.

Um, hey, know what? Speaking of 100, know what?

What's that?

We are at the 100 mark for the RT Summit. Okay, 100 people signing up. It's pretty impressive.

Yeah, as early as it is, 100 people. We are expecting it to sell out around 300. Yeah, about 300. And it's still early bird registration until November 1st. So make sure you go over there and sign up now. So one month left and we are still updating the website. We have 24, 25 different workshops.

25, yeah.

Plus the main talks. So there's a lot of information, a lot of CEUs, a lot of things that we're still working out that will be on the website and loaded here probably in the next couple of weeks. So Thank you, Steven Perez, for helping us do a lot of that behind the scenes.

Big shout out to my man Steven Perez. That guy, he does it all. Love that guy.

He's awesome. And as a reminder, it is March 4th and 5th in Malibu at Pepperdine, and a lot of people will be there obviously a day early, so we'll have some activities on March 3rd. We'll be doing something to hang out, so go over and register. Lance and I also, we have our anxiety intensive in January. It was going to be in September. We bumped it for a lot of different reasons. So January 13th through 16th, that's a Thursday— no, sorry, that is a Wednesday through a Saturday.

Yep.

On the beach in Encinitas. Amazing house. So 6 guys we are looking for. We already have some signups, but this intensive is geared towards men who are ministry leaders, Or ministry leaders, kind of adjacent. So we're going to talk a lot, obviously, about anxiety. It's an anxiety intensive. We're going to look about, um, look at in terms of anxiety, how we show up and how we self— how we self— um, can't talk today— how we self-differentiate when we're leaders and how that impacts our systems that we're a part of. So it's gonna be a good time. So go over to turningfromanxiety.com. Registration is there, and we can provide up to, I think, about $1,200 scholarships per person if they need it.

Yeah, man, we got— we, we have some very generous donators that believe in, um, the ministry that we're doing, um, and, and the ministry that you're doing if you're in ministry. So they want to give you all the tools possible to be successful.

Lance, let me roll off a couple of dates and I'll let you just add the context. Um, October 16th and 17th in Dallas, Eric Salwin is doing Level 1 training. October 23rd through 24th, Nicole Zazowski is doing Level 1 in the New York, Connecticut area. November 6th and 7th, Michael Cox is doing Level 1 in Austin, Texas. And then November 13th through 14th, you're doing Level 1 in San Diego.

That's right. Yeah, we're gonna do it up here in North County. Uh, we're really excited. Uh, if you've been thinking about getting more involved with RT, and, uh, this is like— I would say RT Dialogue is kind of a place, like a good starter place for people. But to get the true, like, take it all in experience, um, with a crowd of people, do Level 1 training. Uh, um, we, we have them all over the country. Got some amazing people. You know, Eric Salwin. Come on, that guy's amazing. Nicole Zasowski. She's written how many books? Five thousand. I don't know. And then we got you know Michael Cox in this place. Michael Cox.

Gosh!

And then we have the beach with Lance. Come on, November November 13th through the 14th. Come on out. We will have a lot of fun. I'm actually gonna bring some of my teammates out and. We're going to add a little extra sauce to it because, you know, that's how we roll.

All right. That's awesome. A lot of stuff going on in our community.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

It's a lot of good stuff. All right. I'm going to— I'm excited about today. So our guest, you know, I meet people in a lot of different contexts. Sometimes I get an email from people. Sometimes I meet them in person at an event. I got an email several months ago from a therapist up in San Francisco. And she was like, you need to meet one of my colleagues who I supervise. I think I'll find out. I think she supervises our guest. She's like, you got to meet her. She is down in Pasadena. She does amazing work. She's a Fuller grad, done RT Level 1 and Level 2. And so Kim and I connected originally via email, and then lo and behold, I show up to Relate Strong training in June. And Kim and her husband are over there in the same training with me. So we got to connect in person, got to meet her husband, you know, who's one of the only non-therapists in the room. So Lance, you know how that is when you're married to a therapist, another person is not. It's, uh, yeah, that's tough going sometimes.

And I'm the— that would be my wife is what he's talking about.

Yeah. And my wife, who's the CPA, you know, project manager.

We get it.

So Kim, I met in person, on emails, a Fuller grad, and we just wanted to have her, um, on the podcast. Um, she's in a different phase of RT, up and coming. And I was saying before we started that there's a lot of things that, Lance, you and I learned from people in, in different stages. Hopefully people are learning things from us, but there are things that we are learning from people as they come into this process. And one of the things I'm really intrigued about her is her background and where she's from.

Mm-hmm.

I'll let Kim share that story. And Kim, I'm gonna let you introduce and say your last name because I'm gonna, I'm gonna mess it up. So welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, right? I'm, I am Kim Agaramon. I'm a Filipino therapist in Pasadena.

And I really butchered the language, but Tagalog, Tagalog, Tagalog, which Tagalog, Tagalog. Which is the official— is that considered the official Filipino language?

It's the Filipino language, but the Philippines has so many languages. Tagalog is just at the northern part of the Philippines, but a lot of people speak that language.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for clearing that up. And, um, hopefully Lance and I don't butcher, butcher it the rest of the show here.

There you go. We're gonna practice.

Okay. That's good.

It's like RT, it's what we do. We practice.

Yeah. Hey, so tell us about, um, your journey to RT because it's kind of unique, you know, in the sense of you have not been in the States that long. It sounds like the program brought you out. So share with our audience like how you got to Fuller, how you got to RT.

Yeah, so I am from the Philippines. I grew up in the Philippines. I only moved here in 2021 for the program, but my undergraduate program was actually psychology, so it It has been a dream for me to work with people, help people, and support people. But mental health is not as big back home. I think because of all the systemic stuff that we're experiencing, everyone's just like survival mode. Like, our budgets are for everyday life, like everyday needs, not much for mental health. So I actually ended up in HR. That was the closest that I could do to be with people and to be supporting people. And then my last job before I moved here, I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with International Justice Mission.

But IJM, for sure.

Yes, yes, IJM. So I worked for IJM Philippines. We were saving children from online sexual exploitation. And I was in HR during that time. And as I was working there, I was like, this is such good work. But I want to be involved more in meeting the survivors and helping them process what they're going through.

Yeah.

So that's what led me to maybe I need to Go somewhere where I could practice as a therapist, as a, as someone who like really sits with people. And that's when I met a friend who's also from Fuller, who she's one year in the program. She visited the Philippines and told me about Fuller, and then I was like, okay, I'm gonna apply and see how that goes. And then I applied, and then COVID happened. I was accepted in 2020. Um, I deferred and ended up 2021. And that's how I got into Fuller.

That's awesome. Um, that's crazy. I, uh, Lance, I was thinking too about like, um, Nui and Sammy Chavez and their like journey, you know. Kim is the 3rd guest in a row that's kind of had this interesting international—

Hey, you know, Colombia. We have Guatemala. And we had the Philippines. Yeah, Uruguay.

It's awesome.

We are now an international sensation.

Yeah, it's gonna be a huge episode in the Philippines.

I hope so.

So you got to Pasadena in 2021 for the MFT program, right?

Yes.

Um, and you said a friend kind of connected you to it or started talking about Fuller.

Yes.

Was it— was it— were you looking for a program that integrated faith and counseling, or did you just end up at Fuller kind of, you know, because of their counseling program in general, just because you wanted a psychology?

Yeah, when I was looking for graduate school, I was actually applying to programs in Japan, Korea, or Europe. Um, but then during that time, I started dating my now husband. He was also working for IJM, and it just did not make sense for me to be somewhere else other than the LA area. The friend that I met, her name is Shannon Xiao. She's doing great work as an LMFT at Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services as well.

Hey!

Yeah, she's also from the program, and she's the one who told me about it. Initially, I did not think that integration was possible, so when she told me about that, I was like, Oh, okay, okay. I think that fits perfectly. It's not just about like, um, psychology and all that. I was curious about what integration looks like, and that's what really got me into trying to apply for Fuller. And then I got in, and then I experienced the whole thing.

Cool.

Why did you think integration wasn't possible?

I just thought growing up that you cannot bring in faith Or God or like the religious beliefs and psychology. But it— I just grew up in a space where it's very separate. And even in the church settings that I've been before, when you say you're anxious, when you say you feel like you're experiencing depressive symptomology, it's like, oh, maybe you need to pray more. Like, it's really like separate. It doesn't click that they could exist together. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I like that because it's something like obviously in RT we've been exploring a lot. It's what Terry's going to talk about at the summit, you know. So I love that. Um, you said you— was your husband working in LA?

So he worked as an engineer in LA. He's really from here. So he grew up in San Diego, went to UCLA, but then he really has heart for missions. So he went to IJM in the Philippines and worked there for 2 years. And that's how we met.

So you met in the Philippines, you guys came over together for the program?

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Back to his roots.

Yes.

UCLA, San Diego. Close.

I mean, LA, probably.

I know, Lance, it's not the same.

There's a big difference between LA people and San Diego people.

Yeah. So you, you're at Fuller and obviously you're taking classes from Terry at that point.

Yes, I was privileged. I think we were the last cohort that Terry taught.

Okay, the very last one. What was it— I mean, when you're in class with him and you're learning about RIT, were you, as we say, kind of hooked right away? Like, as soon as he started talking about the model? I'm curious about what that was like for you.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was hooked. It was more like It makes sense. Like, I did not need to, like, think too much about it. It just landed really well as he was, like, explaining, like, the pain and coping and all of this. My brain was just, like, putting words in categories. And it was so easy to build my own pain cycle to the point where, like, I was thinking about my whole family. Oh, I think my mom's doing this because she's feeling this. And then my 4 sisters and my dad, like, I was doing that for everyone. I think it just clicked in my brain. And it has helped me actually do things differently, even though I was not yet in therapy with an RT therapist during that time. Because, because it made sense. Like, if I know this is what is happening for me, it doesn't make sense for me to respond the same way. I think that's what my head was doing. And then I ended up with a therapist who does RT, which helped with that experience more.

Nice. Who'd you have?

Is that okay? I mean, I'm okay with sharing, but you're allowed to break confidentiality. Yeah, Melody Zheng. She works here too. I think she's in Alhambra currently.

Oh, cool.

Yes. Yeah, we can talk about our therapists. We just can't talk about our clients.

Our therapists.

That's true.

If we want to.

Yeah.

Man, I love that. I, you know, I guess one of the things I'm curious about, because just speaking of like cultural differences, cultural context, Does RT— does the idea of love and trust and violation of trust, does that, does that make sense in the environment you grew up in, the culture you grew up in? Did it just fit in the language in terms of how you understand that, or were there things that you kind of had to work, work and think through in terms of that?

Hmm.

I think I I cannot say that this is true for everyone. But I think because we're not so used to talking about things this way, that this is my pain, that's why I'm responding this way, or looking at ourselves. We're a very communal, community-oriented, family-oriented culture. So I think it's not easy to identify our own pains. That's why we're reacting this way. It's easier to see someone else's. than our own. And I think RT clicked for me just because I've been thinking about it already. I think with the work that I do currently with my Filipino clients, I think the journey to figure out pain and acknowledge that it's a pain that I'm experiencing about myself and internally instead of externally is a journey. It's like something that we walk through together because we're not used to thinking about that. are looking at ourselves, or like, oh, it feels so weird when I ask them the question, like, what does that make you feel about yourself? Or the first time I was asked that question, I was like, wait, why am I thinking about myself? Like, there's so many things that I need to think about and attend to. Why am I thinking about myself is my experience, and could be an experience for other people too.

So is that like, you tend to be more externally focused than—

Yeah, more like, oh, I'm having a hard time. But I think this person's having a hard time too. What can I do for this person? Or what's going on for that person? More, more that mindset.

So to think of, to think of oneself or to overly think of oneself is not, it's just not maybe part of the cultural experience or it's not as highly valued maybe as maybe an individualistic Western mindset of like, what about me? This is how I think or feel.

Yes, I think, I think when I think about that, I would remember I feel bad, but my mom would be like, oh, you have so much time to think. Maybe do chores. Or maybe like, maybe you're not doing— maybe you're like resting too much. That's why you're thinking too much about yourself. So like, that's something that like we joke around growing up, but I think that's reflective of like, there's so many things to do. Like, why are you focusing on yourself? That kind of thing.

Hmm.

Interesting. I, um, no, I think that's— it's, uh, it is funny when you kind of step back and think, like, the idea that we have time to sit and just ponder or meditate on or ruminate or think about our experiences. That, that feels like a real privilege depending on the part of the world that you grow up in.

Yeah, I was gonna say that my head is like, oh, I think it feels like a privilege to do that if there's so many things going on around you that you need to attend to.

Yeah. Lance, what are you thinking? Yes, your brain's like—

I have like a lot of thoughts. It's one, one I just finished, um, Angela Duckworth's, um, uh, book Situate It just came out, and she has this whole section on Maslow's needs and how it wasn't supposed to be a hierarchy per se. In fact, that like if you just do one, then you're actually missing out on, on the fullness of it all. And I'm also thinking about this whole idea around like, what would the benefit— like thinking about RT from a, like a bigger context. If we like What would RT look like if it could flow in the hearts of the Filipinos? Like, what would that— if they could find, you know, this, this experience around like, oh, like it's okay to think of self in order to help the other. Or is that— that's— those are the two places where my brain was going in the moment. I don't know which one would be more fun discussion.

Um, let's go with that second one. Say, say that thought again about RT and the flow.

You know, like, so, okay, so they tend to be more externally focused. From your context, Philippines, how many islands is it?

Like 7,100-something?

Yeah, 7,100 islands. So imagine some of the islands might be a little bit different. Did you grow up in, in the— where, which area did you grow up?

So I grew up in the northern area. It's called Laguna. It's like 2 hours away from Manila.

Laguna, huh?

Laguna, yes. Laguna, which is 2 hours away from Manila, which is the capital of the Philippines.

Okay. So is it like Laguna Hills?

Can you say that again?

Sorry, that was a dumb joke. Laguna Hills is like an old MTV show.

Oh, I don't know about that.

They're like the opposite. They tend to be more personally focused than externally focused.

Oh gosh. We'll put a, we'll put a link to Laguna Hills. I'll let RO put a clip in it.

Yeah.

Yes, I could see it.

But yeah, I was thinking, you know, from a perspective of like RT from a global context, you know, you work with IJM, um, as well. So like where we're looking at, the major system, that third-order change mentality. And I feel like RT is definitely a third-order change therapy that not only looks on helping someone in the moment, not only helping someone for a life, but also helping someone to affect a full system. And I'm curious around like the idea of what would it look like for RT to flow into your, your area of Laguna?

I think it'll really be nice. I think if people— I think the shame around thinking about self, I think for me, from my experience, has not worked. I think my own personal coping is shame. Like everything lives in my internal world. But then I also don't look at my internal world because I have to look outward. So it's like so hard to like make sense of that. So when I encountered RRT, being able to like, see it and name it and see how it's impacting me and how it's connected to like, why was I crying? Why was I mad at that time? Why is my relationship with this person this way? And it has always been that way. When I started naming what those internal experiences were, I think I also started slowly, so slowly. I think if I don't know if Melody will— my therapist will agree with this, but I'm a little like a stubborn client.

I'm gonna insult her afterwards.

I'm a little bit of like a stubborn client. Like, I'm like, I know what I've been like. This has worked. This has been safe. But then the small changes that I've made, just speaking up, because in our culture too, you don't speak up to your elders, you don't explain to your parents. It's kind of— it can be taken as a form of like disrespect. But then part of What I learned when I stopped shaming myself, that it's bad when I express who I am, I think connection happened better, especially with my siblings. Still working on like how it would look like with my parents. Like, I'm very close with my parents, but then, you know, like the patterns are similar when, when tension happens, when my pain comes up, it's the same.

Hmm.

And when I started looking internally, Like those little changes, like I cannot stop talking about it anymore, that when you do this, this is how I feel. And I think that's also part of the change that happens when— so hopefully that's what it would look like for people back home once we look more internally, like removing that shame and like thinking of it as communal as well, that if I see myself, I could also see the external. parts of where I'm at more clearly too, if that makes sense. I don't know if that makes sense, but—

No. Yeah, I'm flowing with that. That's quite beautiful. That finding— it's kind of not necessarily completely individualistic, but it's also— it's more of understanding how we belong within a community context. That'd be kind of cool. We should do that. Let's go to Laguna.

Yeah, let's go.

It's not lost to me, Lance, that same— you know, people who are on video, behind Kim, she's got I Am Enough on the wall. Can you see it?

Yeah. Is that—

is that— is that a big, important piece of your truth that, like, over— you've worked on speaking into the shame?

Oh, yes. I even have a tattoo of it. I Am Enough. It's really something I'm like, yeah, it's something I'm really working on. And when we started today, I'm committed to RT. I'm committed to change, to myself, to my own change. But when we started today, I was like, I'm enough. I might not be an expert, but what I know is enough is something I was like talking to myself about as we started to. Yeah.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I think like one of the things that we try to impress upon, I think that Terry and Sharon have always said is like, if you're not practicing in this in your, in your own day-to-day life, then why are we all doing this?

Yeah.

You know, I'm going to be speaking tomorrow night at a church, you know, and I know I'll be sitting in the chair walking through my 4 steps, you know, before I go up on stage and talk, you know, it's just a part. I know when clients come in today, I'll be sitting here in my office breathing, taking a deep breath. I wish I had a tattoo I could look at though. That's so handy on my arm as yours.

So what would yours say, Rhett?

Well, before we hopped on, I, I, that jumped out at me because the whole idea of I'm enough or I'm more than enough, I'm more than adequate is like significant for me, you know? And that's, that's, that's the truth that I lean into. Um, I think a couple, you were there, Lance, a few years ago at WinShape when I was doing exercise and And Terry was kind of like speaking at me from behind the crowd, having me like—

Oh, man.

Say my truth. And, you know, only a way that Terry can move into a room and get you to access your truth. Like, that's what jumped out at me, this idea of I'm adequate, I'm more than enough. And so I just love that. I love Kim having this conversation, looking in the video and seeing this truth behind you, you know, and this— It seems like you have a real heart to bring what you're learning, the personal transformation and experience, into the communal environment.

Yeah, I'm really passionate about that. I think that's why I did the program. It's— I mean, I love my clients, and I love helping the people that I meet. But I really started the program because I also want to be of support to the people that are around me. So even though I'm not my family's therapist, or I'm not my friends' therapist, I know not everyone does this, but I'm very open to being that starting point. Like when they're like, Kim, sometimes I wake up at like 3 AM and they're like, Kim, I'm having a problem. And then we'll talk. And then I still do the same thing. Like, I think it's empowering for them to like understand themselves. So I do that for my friends and my family. Not that I'm their therapist. I tell them like, but this is my opinion as your sister. So maybe we need to find support for you. so that we could continue what we have started to talk about is something that I like doing.

Yeah, that's really cool. In this work that you're doing, is there an intervention or something in the room? And let's just say for the sake of this conversation with A client, a client from the Philippines or Filipino background. Is there an intervention or a way that you feel like you show up in the room that is really impactful in that context, you know, in terms of an RT-type intervention, something you're playing around with even?

An intervention. I think doing art—

Yeah, go ahead.

I think doing arti in Tagalog is already a very different thing because the language is very different. So figuring out the appropriate words for the Filipino experience to identify their pain is one thing that I'm exploring. I'm not— I don't think that's like an intervention intervention, but like some—

It is. I mean, I think being able to connect with someone in their language And it sounds like you have to be pretty, pretty deliberate about how you communicate that in the room to them. I would imagine if I'm on the receiving end of that, and I hear my own language coming at me in that way, that it's probably a really powerful experience for, for that client.

Yeah, hopefully, because what I notice is sometimes the words don't land as accurately. With, with the experience sometimes when it's in English. So what I've been exploring is like, how do I say this in Tagalog in a very Filipino way? So I'm a little more like animated, like I'm more my Filipino self, which is also very interesting because moving here I've noticed that I could have 2 versions of me, a version of me that's living here that is fully me and a version of me that is Filipino and is back home, and that looks different. If we talk about like Myers-Briggs, I'm an E there, I'm an extrovert there, I'm an I here, um, in America, which is a very interesting experience. And when I meet my Filipino clients, just me bringing that very Filipino self has been helpful, and I've been able to help them find the words of like, okay, if shame does not land for you, what are the words? So sometimes it's not just one word, it's a full phrase that will help them express that pain is what I've been exploring with my Filipino clients.

Lance, I was thinking about how important it is, whether— actually, regardless of what language we're speaking, or almost even dialect, or if we're working with teenagers and stuff, like, how important it is to, like, be able to speak a person's language in order to— in order for them to feel safe with you in a room. You know, that you, that you can connect with them, that they feel seen in some way.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's like probably one of my favorite things to do of like trying to understand a person's context, where they're coming from, and then being able to kind of put that, translate it into RT from that place, you know, that where it's kind of like that, that place you're comfortable and, you know, to all of a sudden now, okay, so Let's, let's, let's work through what this looks like in pain versus peace from your context. Yeah. Yeah.

Can you— this is up to you, Kim. Can you say, like, how would you ask your client, like, what's that feeling in Tagalog?

Tagalog? I mean, I'll start with asking it in English. Like, what does that make you feel like? What thoughts Come to mind about yourself when you experience that, and then when they're like, "What do you mean?" And I'll be like, "Ano na isip mo kapag itayong nangyari sa yo? Ano yung mga bosses kapag lalirinig about yourself kapag kanti yung nangyari?" So that's Tagalog Taglish combining languages.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Taglish.

Thank you. Taglish. That's very common. I think that's the most normal one in where I live. Like we cannot speak full Tagalog or just full English. It's always together.

Is is it is it a lot of work for you to move between languages in a session?

Mm hmm.

So you have to be very mindful of that.

Mm hmm. Yeah, the the first time I had a first Filipino client. My mouth felt so weird because I think I open my mouth differently when I speak in English. And then when I speak in Tagalog, it's also very different. So I was like, oh, why am I tongue-tied? Or why am I overthinking this? Why can I not translate it as fast? So it's also like more— I also needed more practice to be able to engage in therapy in Tagalog because I've learned it in English.

Yeah.

That's—

I appreciate you sharing that. And it's a beautiful language. And I'm thankful that there are therapists like you, you know, who can show up for people like that.

Thank you.

Lance, I'm gonna take a hard pivot here. Let's do it.

Pivot.

And I want— Kim and I were talking before the episode about sports. And pain and peace and working with athletes. Okay.

Okay.

And, and she had a question that— no, that's— it's just something she's thinking through in terms of like performance. And so Kim, can you, can you explain or bring that question up? Because it's a good one. And Lance, I'm just going to consider him our resident since he's such a Padres fan. He's such a resident sports guy. I think this is an interesting discussion because there are a lot of people in RT who are working with athletes. Either, you know, kids in their office every day or professional athletes. So go ahead, Kim. I'm going to tee that up for you and move in that direction.

Thank you. Yeah, Padres. My husband's a Padres fan. So both of you are the same.

Yeah.

See, I knew I liked you guys.

He's like so invested. But anyway, I think the question that I asked Rhett earlier was that sometimes with sports, it's very black and white. Like in a volleyball game, it's either you win or you lose. You see your stats and you're like, it's either I played well, I scored what I— how much points I need to be scoring. I clearly see how many errors I've made. And sometimes I can imagine how hard that is to contain in the room. Like when your pain point is that I'm not enough.

Yeah.

Like, how do you communicate with an athlete whose world is really Stats. Like, there's so many stats. There's so many things that will tell you who you are or how you performed and how, how to work with that black and white either/or mentality sometimes.

I like, I like this question. I mean, this is probably one of the— I think this question not only for athletes, but I would say for most people that work where there are very clear metrics on winners and losers. And for me, I find this question to really be a nice turning point to help somebody. To ask the question, what does it mean to be successful? And what is that success? When you think about Your definition of success, does it actually help you in the person that you're trying to become?

Hmm.

Because I find that when we make our definition of success, if I win today, then I have made it. If I win— I have people who have won big awards from in sports or in acting or in music where they've won the big award, right? And like, but what's your definition of success? Like, what is that success? What is that thing? And I think I really loved, you know, Brett and I read Brad Stulberg's book around The Way of Excellence recently, and they call They call this fallacy the arrival fallacy, that once I am here, I am there, right? Like, that is my thing. So I always like to kind of work to help my clients lean in and be like, well, is that true success? Is that the measure you want to be in front of you? What would be another measure you could look at? Maybe I'll open it up a little bit more. Um, to, to ask them. And, um, and then I say, you know, I'll lean in on my failures and be like, man, when I look at my life and I think about my, like, biggest successes in life and what I learned versus when I look at my biggest failures in life and what I learned, I find that, um, whether you win or lose, like, it's, it's more about what you do with it. And how, how is that spurning you on towards that greater goal? And the more that we can name that greater goal of the person that you're trying to become, the person that you want to be, there's something powerful that can happen. It's really funny. I was in a, a group of like a Bible study for business leaders the other day, and this guy looks across at me He finds out I'm a therapist, which when people find out you're a therapist, it means you're gonna get so many, I don't know how you do what you do, or whatever. But he looks at me and he finds out that I'm a Padres fan. He's like, aren't sports the best? Like, you can— they—

you—

like, there's, there's just absolutely the most wonderful thing. And I looked at him, I was like, no, they're not. They're the worst. I mean, this is probably me being like really nervous about the Padre game, um, that I'm going to today. Um, but, but there's also this element of like where sports have been so toxic, they've done so much damage to people. So many of our clients have had horrible coaches. So many of our clients, um, have like literally in the name of sport, um, ruined their bodies or their lives. And so I, you know, I, I was a little bit over the top with how much I like— if it's— I guess he said it was like the best. So maybe be like, no, I don't think so. I think it actually does a lot of damage. So, but I hope I'm answering your question. Okay. What are you hearing from me when I'm saying these things?

I think what was helpful for me as I was listening to you is like to expand that black and white thinking, that it's not just winning or losing, that there's more to it that we're not thinking of when we're stuck in this, in our stats, when we're stuck in the winning in the moment. I think that definition of success is helpful, which I've been thinking about as you were like talking. I think the question that I have would be like sometimes when we meet these athletes, they're like, yeah, if my version of success is being able to provide for my family, like earn this much money in the future and feel more comfortable, and this loss could mean that I don't get access to that, how do you talk to them? Like, how do you help? How do you guide them in like those moments where it feels like this small thing is gonna impact this smaller big thing is going to impact the success that I'm seeing in the future?

Yeah. Yeah, I love that question. I mean, I think I'd want to go to what does it mean to provide and what are we supposed to provide? You know, I think when at the end of the day, what are those things that matter most when it comes to your memories with your family? Like, so I can work up with that, you know, Do I think about all those great things that my parents— like my parents paying for this, that, the other? Or I think about those moments when I was with them and, and at my lowest moment when they looked at me and they said, like, we still love you even though you're a total idiot. Like, they still love me. Like they still cared. That, that provided so much more than what money could have provided in moments. So I think about this idea of like provision of like, so what does it mean to provide? So I'd want to, you know, Sung Chan-ra, have you— did you have any classes with him at Fuller? So good. He wrote Prophetic Lament. He's Oh gosh, I can't think of all the books now. But, um, anyways, he, he always pushes us, like, he's like, whenever you have someone that's in a black or white place, um, and they have like a really strong, um, viewpoint on it, help them to take their viewpoint— instead of arguing with their viewpoint, make them go deeper with their viewpoint.

Mm-hmm.

Um, because as you go deeper with the viewpoint, what will end up happening Is you will reveal so much more.

Mm-hmm.

And so to lean into like, what does it mean to provide? Like, what does that mean to you? And as we ask those questions and as we lean into those questions, we start to see that this differentiator of the pain and the peace cycle and these, these truer pieces that a person needs, you know, so instead of living out a performance, they can Be the person that they're called to be. Is that helpful?

Yeah, I think what I'm experiencing right now as you're answering the question is like, it feels like my brain's like opening up. Like, even like as I asked that question, then you're answering it, it feels like it's spreading out for me. So I think that's really helpful.

Yeah, good. You know, how are you hearing it, Rhett? What would you say?

Well, by the way, I was just— a couple of things. One is, okay, so Brad Stolberg, episode 65, RT Dialogue, by the way, that he was on.

Such a great episode.

He talks about the importance of what— I think the metaphor is he uses a house with different rooms in terms of our identity, especially around athletics and performance, that people need other things.

Yeah.

When you're overly invested in one thing, Right? You don't have other things. Like, that's a, that's a bad position to be in. And so I, I think about that. I think about the importance of people, like, if working with an athlete, helping them expand and develop. What are the other things in your life besides your athletic performance, you know, that are important to you, that make you a whole person? And honestly, Lance, I still wrestle. You know, when Terry says that a performance-based identity is no identity at all, Mm-hmm. When I first heard that, I'm like, no, what do you mean? I can perform really well. What do you mean that's not an identity? We talk about love and trust, and love we frame under the identity piece and trust under safety. Back to your sign of I'm enough there in your office, it answers the question of identity, I think. This idea that you are enough. And I think when I'm working with an athlete, and this is, I guess, where that— this is not a good answer, but this is where the hard work is, is that I just keep bringing them back to their truth, that regardless of their metrics that we're leaning into, that regardless of what happens today or doesn't happen, is that you are enough. You know, and even if the outcome is not good, you are enough. How do I lean into that truth, you know, that I am enough? And it's, it's messy. It's not pretty. It's not clean cut. It's not either or. But I think I just keep bringing someone back to, if who you are is dependent upon the outcome, it's just not a good place to be.

You know.

And for Lance, whether the Padres— Lance, you're going to have to know that you're enough regardless of the Padres' outcome today.

Wow.

That who you are, Lance, as a person is not dependent upon these external circumstances.

I feel like I need this right now. Keep it going.

I'm not answering the question very well, but I just—

No, but you're right. Like, so the concept— I, I use ChatGPT right now, just to be real. People don't think I'm like, I have a perfect index in my brain. Um, the concept is called self-complexity.

Mm-hmm.

Um, like when we're— and he talks about this idea of like diversifying yourself, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Like if you make one thing define you, then, um, that you live and die by that one thing. So I would say like that performance-driven identity might Lean into that.

Yeah.

And if the Padres lose today, I'll be sad, but I will also come home and I will walk into my daughter's bedroom and give her those little kisses. I like to give her like right here on the forehead. And I will remember that whether they win or lose, I am still part of a very important family. And she could care less. Well, she probably cares a little bit because I've, I've raised her right because I'm a good padre. But yeah, you're right, Rhett.

Well, I was trying to think of like a metaphor with an athlete because part of athletics is failure, right? It's a big part of athletics. Statistically, if you look at like, like performance, I mean, I was looking at some numbers the other day, I think on just Michael Jordan, percentage of shots made. It's, it's, I mean, it's good, but it's a huge amount of failure. And if an athlete focuses on that failure and lets the failure drive them, um, I think that can lead to some real unhealthy things.

Yeah.

But I think if they focus on this identity piece that I am enough regardless of the outcome, Mm-hmm. That's a whole other avenue that, that they can head down to. And sometimes in my office when I'm working with like— it doesn't have to be an athlete, it can be just a performer. This is not a great metaphor, but I talk about the language of like— because a guy will be like, look at Brett, I do all these things, I'm really good at what I do and performing. And I'm like, yeah, but look what's driving your performance. It's really all pain.

Yeah.

It's dirty fuel. That stuff burns out.

How do we—

your performance needs to be driven by your identity that you are enough regardless. And so a lot of times, I think it's trying to help a person toggle back and forth to like, my performance is based out of my pain versus out of my true self of who I am. And when I'm in my true self of who I am, the outcome does not matter at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Um, and it's, you know, part of working with athletes is just— it's sad sometimes because things just don't always work out, which is a part of life regardless if it's an athlete or not.

Yeah. I mean, you think about that experience of like, let's say you're like winning a big— the big game, right? And you win the game and you're like, see, my stupid coach who said I was a piece of crap and I'm not gonna amount to a hill of beans, I showed him.

Mm-hmm.

Versus like the person that's like, I am so thankful to be a part of this team where we each believe in one another, that we each have something amazing to give to this world. And I got to give that part of me that brought in this beautiful thing of a win. And I'm so thankful that, that I am blessed and skilled in this way. The amount of peace— like, one's this kind of like, you know, ultimate middle finger experience that amounts to nothing, and the other is something that has resonance. So I don't know.

Kim, how has it shown up in your own life? You said you played volleyball your entire life.

Yeah.

So how do you think through this as a !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that's why I want to make space for that grief for other people. But opening that room too is like, oh, I find things that make me feel like I'm enough, even though sometimes I still don't feel like I'm fully enough. But it's a constant journey of finding those rooms for yourself. Yeah. I'm a crier.

I think you hit on something that is important though, and that is making room for grief with people when they, when they do fail, when they don't hit the metrics. Like, both can be true. Both— it can be true that I am enough, and it can be true that that really sucked that I struck out at the end of the game.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I think giving clients permission to like be in both places and to acknowledge both places, I think, is a Just from like my experience of you on this call right now, like, that's a, it's a beautiful tension to hold space for all these different experiences of who you are.

And that I'm not limited to that, to that room. That's not the fullness of who I am. Like, there's grief in that part of me that felt like my whole life. But I think realizing that there's so much more to my life was super like freeing too.

Hmm. I think you should get a Mommy Kim tattoo on the other arm.

That's true. Yeah.

You know, Lance, I was reading a novel and they translated Romans 8:28. So there's a, there's a, like a, like a theologian in the novel, and they translate Romans 8:28. So God works together all things for good, right? Um, and they translate that works all things, they translate it to like inter— intermingle is the word. And so I did some Greek research on it, and I was looking at some scholars look at that language, and it is translated in the Greek as intermingle, meaning God doesn't separate the good from the bad, but God intermingles all of everything, all experience for good. And so, like, I was just thinking about— Kim, you're just— your words are a demonstration of how God just brings— it's all, it's all in there. It's all, it's all mixed together. It's all good. The pain, the grief, the success, the World Series, the not— The not World Series.

Yeah, again.

Yeah, which brings back to integration and why I think RT is so powerful. Like, if we choose to with certain clients, we can access a really deep part of who they are, an identity that is important.

Yeah, that's good. I was, I was in the, um, That U2 song, the Stuck in the Moment. You know that one? Have you seen the video of Stuck in the Moment?

Mm-mm.

It's, um, it's really good. It's like this guy, he misses the football— he misses the, um, uh, he misses the field goal. There it is. It's hard to think football when you're thinking baseball. And in the video, it's like the big game. He misses the field goal and it's like this beautiful— hopefully we can link the video in the feed. And it's just like the moment that he can't get out of. Like, you know, it's like he's, he's in that place. And I think about this, you know, like This space of like, man, when we're stuck in the moment, we miss the intermingling, the, the fullness of, of the experience of what's really going on here, like, um, of, of it all. Like, because it's the moment that we're in, but we don't see that full perspective, perspective of it all, of what this moment serves, um, whether it's a, you know, 5— being 5 foot, you know.

Yeah.

5-foot-nothing, as they say in the States, trying to compete in a place where giants land, and what that meant to be and to miss out on the idea of who you really are in those moments. You're so focused in on me being the best volleyball player, and yet everyone sees you as Mama Kim. And even your professor says, I think psychology is the thing. And like, for people to see us, that beautiful place— I don't know if that flows with the intermingling, but yeah.

Besides consulting with her therapist, Lance, later, we—

you and I Yeah, we talked to Melody.

We'll talk about— yeah, we'll send— we need to send her professor, her teacher, a copy of this episode.

Oh yeah.

You called out the truth in her.

Look what you did. Yeah, yeah, teachers, man, they're the best.

Kim, as we wind up here, is there anything you want the audience to know? Any Anything you want to leave them with? Any information, thoughts? We'll put everything in the show notes. We'll link to your website where you practice, all that stuff. Anything that's important to say as we sign off?

Yeah, that I want to meet people. Like, I want to be of support to people. I want to be that room of grief for people who need that. And I think that's just how I see my therapy room. Like, and hopefully that helps. I'm so bad at like closing out, but hopefully that's okay.

And people are going to meet you in person at the summit in March. That's right.

Come to the summit. Meet Kim. Yeah.

Get to know Mama Kim.

The crying lady. Yeah, we'll have a booth that says Mama Kim on it. It's like, yeah, you know, like Charlie Brown, they have that little booth they set up for like Therapy. It's like five cents or something. She'll just have a little little booth set up at Pepperdine. Yeah, yeah. Mama Kim.

That'll be cute. Yeah, I'll send it to my friends. They still call me Mommy Kim till now. See?

Yeah. Well, Kim, we really appreciate. Actually, I got I got some emotions too. That was. I'm still got a little tears coming. Yeah, yeah. Good. This is when it'd be nice to all be in the same room together.

We should. We'd hug it out.

Yeah, you could sit in the space a little longer than the dead air of a podcast. But we're just so thankful that you're part of the RT community and your journey here. And, um, people who are listening, I'll put her information in the, in the episode and you can reach out to her and connect. And we'll all meet up in March as well. So Kim, thanks for coming on. We appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you.

See you guys. Bye.