Season 2 | Episode 83 | Associate Marriage and Family Therapist Sammy Chaves

What's up? What's up, Lance?

Rhett, my man! Hey, are we doing it right? I forget what we're supposed to do. Are us like— I don't know. Make the thing in the beginning. It's really funny.

Dude, to be honest with you, I think— I feel like you and I have been dragging here coming out of like summer.

And we're not talking about the mythical feature creature.

No, we are just— I don't know, the summer, the— I don't know what you want to call it. I just— I, I've just been exhausted and tired, and I think you and I, we have a lot of things on our plates. We've been dragging with the podcast a little bit, and, uh, it's— we're excited for the fall. And getting this back up and going. So this is episode 83.

83 in the house, bro.

Let's hit—

That's pretty interesting. So do you think we'll hit 100?

Yeah, I think we'll hit 100. I just think, uh, I was talking to our guest earlier, you know, and I was just with a 19-year-old in the house and a 16-year-old and going to college and back to college and launching. I think I just been really busy and tired. So—

I've been proud of you, man. Like, normally I can, like call you or something, and then I don't know, you've just been busier.

Yeah, I've seen your phone ring a couple times, and I've had to ignore it because I've been at dinner. But just so you know, I'm not ignoring you, Lance.

I'm not in my pain cycle. I do— I, I go through my 4 steps and I'm okay.

All right, that's good. Well, as Terry says, we can— if we need to during the podcast, you just start walking your steps with me.

So I feel unloved, what I normally do. is I withdraw and pretend like I'm okay. Um, the truth is I'm loved, so I'll just be myself.

Something you and I have been working on though, we have been talking a lot about. We decided to bump our anxiety intensive.

Yep.

For male ministry leaders from September to January. Um, yeah, we just had other things coming up, coming up. We didn't feel confident about Um, uh, just getting it completely filled. Numbers were bouncing back and forth. We had other events coming up, and so it's like we just pulled it back, decided to do January. So it is January.

January is gonna be so much better.

It is. I think just coming into the new year, January 13th through 16th, um, on the Beach House in Encinitas.

Um, for those of you that don't know, that's San Diego area. Yeah, it's not— some people might get scared. They might think it's Ensenada or something like that, which—

Yeah, we're not down in Mexico. We are up in the beach house in San Diego.

So it's just one of my favorite surf breaks right, right in that area. Not that I chose the location.

TurningFromAnxiety.com. You can still register. We, we're still taking— we have some spots for a few more guys. So, um, if you're interested or know someone who's interested, head over there. And we have scholarships available up to about $1,200 per person if a person needs scholarship help. So yeah.

Also, we got some help for you.

Restoration Therapy Summit, March 4th and 5th at Pepperdine. Um, people will start arriving on the 3rd. We'll do some activities on the 3rd, but really it's the 4th and the 5th. Uh, registration has been up for a little while. Early bird is still available up till November 1st. And just so you know, we're still updating the website. We have 24, 25 different presentations now outside of the main talks. And that's a lot of speakers, a lot of information, a lot of CEUs. So behind the scenes, we've just been working on getting all that information up on the site. So that will be done soon. But we're excited. Hopefully everybody will be there.

Yes, behind the scenes is awesome. Hey, also for those of you that are like, hey, I need an RT refresher. I need— I actually don't even know what restoration therapy is. I've been listening to this podcast and I'd really like to delve in deeper with it. I want to tell you, you should come hang out with me down here in San Diego, actually in the Carlsbad area. We're going to be doing a level 1 training on November the 13th and the 14th. That's right, the 13th and the 14th of November. Come on down. We'll get you all set right before Thanksgiving, um, all the, all the madness that's about to ensue. You know, come on down, we'll have some fun, do that Level 1 training with you.

Yep. And the rest of the trainings events are at, um, Restoration Therapy website. They're also at our RT Dialogue Substack. So if you have questions about events, head over there. All right, Lance, I'm gonna let you introduce our guest.

So today I'm really excited. Um, we have, uh, a man who has lived a lot of life, um, and has been a lot of places. Uh, I'm— I was really, um, I was at the Fuller Symposium, was it 2 years ago? 3? Say 3 years ago.

2. 2, okay.

I was really excited to hear Dr. Rambo. Dr. Rambo's a really interesting woman out of— professor out of Boston University. She does these really fascinating pieces and works, and she was looking at the characters of Julian of Norwich. Is that right?

Yeah.

And who was the other person?

Thurman.

She highlighted them more than the other.

And Thurman. Oh, that was the day after. Yeah, Thurman.

Yeah, well, yeah, Howard Thurman was the next day. That was incredible. Um, anyways, Sammy got up.

He—

they at Fuller, when they do the Fuller Symposium, which we'll link his talk on here, um, they, they have a student speaker come up as a response. And I was really impressed by Sammy. Sammy got up, shared some vulnerable stuff about his own life. Um, was able to incorporate RT. This kid's a natural. I shouldn't call him a kid cuz he's a grown man. Um, uh, so he, he was asking us how old we were earlier, so that's why I'm using that language. I'm sure people listen to me and think I'm a kid. Um, but, uh, anyways, um, Sammy, Sammy's a really interesting guy. I was like, hey Sammy, when you finish your, um, fuller time, gimme a call. So. I'm excited to see what's going on in your life today, Sammy. Uh, Sammy did the level, um, the practicum training at Fuller with Miyoung, um, and also with one of my, um, soon-to-be, um, employees, uh, Lauren Johnston. So excited to have you on the pod.

Thank you, guys. Hi, Lance. Hi, Rhett. Um, good to meet you. It's good to meet you. I can't believe that I'm here on the podcast, and it's just, you You guys have been such a support to not just me, but I know a lot of other people in the RT community. Like whenever Miyoung mentioned that she was assigning the RT dialogue, I was like, what is that? Like that was never around whenever I was doing marital therapy. And I was like, oh, like these guys are just talking about RT and like doing all like— I love like the end where you're like, hey, something practical. Because RT is very practical. It's experiential. That's what we want. And so It's just been really cool to hear all like the diverse points of views, but I just feel really excited to be here. What an honor.

Yeah. Well, we're excited to have you, man.

That's awesome that Miyoung asked you guys to listen to that. So it's, uh, that's, that's humbling and awesome and embarrassing because, you know, sometimes we, uh, we're all over the place, but you know, the thing about the podcast, we, we learn a ton too. I get off a a conversation, and it's pretty rare where I won't do something in session that day that somebody was like talking about, you know. So it's very inspiring for me to keep me on my toes and help me learn. And I was talking to you before you got on the pod, you said you have, um, did you say 7 and 5 or 5 and 3-year-old?

I have a 5-year-old and a 7-year-old. So I have a kindergartner and a second grader.

Boys?

2 boys. 2 little dudes who are into soccer. It's definitely not a game.

And I'm coaching.

Yeah, well, how old am I? I think I'm 37, and I'm gonna be coaching these little 2 dudes soccer. They got into soccer because of the World Cup. And anyways, so they keep us busy. So Brett was saying like, hey, you're waking up too early. And I was like, ah, with little guys, like, they get up and it's nonstop energy until they crash.

Is this the first time you're coaching them?

I coached my oldest one 2 years ago, but this is the first time I'm coaching both. So I'm doing back-to-back practices and games on Saturday. So we'll see how that goes. This week, I was not such a young guy. I felt really tired after like practice and like games. And I was like, I'm starting to feel my age.

It's amazing when you coach— I coach my son's team— what you go into that first practice with, what you think the practice is going to look like. with little, little kids and what it actually is.

Yeah, it's like the meme, like, it's like, uh, like your expectation, reality.

It's just, yeah, you just have to like go with it.

But I— we had a blast.

Hey, and Sammy, you grew up in Colombia, right? And, and Uruguay?

I did, yeah. So I was born in Bogotá. Um, I went to a missionary school when I from K to 8th grade. Parents are Colombian, but they had lived in the States. So, part of also my growing up is I identify as a third culture kid. So, it's a kid that, yeah, maybe somebody has heard that term or not, but you spend a considerable amount or maybe a year or 2 years of your developmental years outside of your parents' passport country. So, my parents were TCKs. And then, when I was going into high school, we actually went to Uruguay to become missionaries. And I did my whole high school in Montevideo. That's the capital of Uruguay. Um, and so I basically grew up in South America, but I would go up to the States a lot because I have friends here and we have family. And so just kind of like this melding of cultures has always been a part of who I am.

How many, how many languages do you speak? Obviously Spanish, English.

Yeah. Um, I want to say I'm conversational in Portuguese, but like, What you like, if you don't use it, you lose it.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I can still kind of, and I used to like study some French, but basically I'm bilingual in Spanish and English and those are kind of my two, my two things. And I'm really passionate, hopefully to also develop my clinical skills in Spanish because everything I did last year for practicum was in English. But yeah.

This is, I'm just kind of like nerding out here for a second, but do you, when you travel to Colombia versus Uruguay, do you, Do you have to like— does the dialect in terms of the Spanish and the words you're going to use or pronunciations change much? Or—

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Yeah. And even here, like, I mean, I bet a lot of people know I live in Pasadena. LA County has the highest, um, population in the whole— the high— the county with the highest, um, Latin American population in all of the US. And so even here, like, you have like different words and expressions. But yeah, when I go back to Colombia, And then when I, if you go to like the southern part of South America, there's even words that we use in Colombia that you cannot use back down south because it has certain connotations that maybe necessarily you don't want to be. Um, yeah. So you got to even like change all that. It's like, oh yeah, I'm in a different place. So even though we speak Spanish and we can understand each other, it's just once again, like cultures and like different upbringing south of South America is very European. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's its whole thing.

How, how did you end up at Fuller?

Oh, that's a great, that's a great story. So, um, so I said I grew up in Latin America. I would be coming up to the States, um, pretty often. And then I did, I went to college at Wheaton, Wheaton College. So that was close to Chicago. I studied international relations and history, and my big dream was to become this Hotshot diplomat because I'm a dual citizen, so I'm Colombian and also a U.S. citizen. I wanted to work for the State Department. Wanted to make a lot of money. Wanted to travel the world. That's what I wanted. So I went there, and then that's when everything kind of went haywire, literally. Because the second semester of my my college experience, I started. I suffered for for twelve years from a chronic autoimmune disease called ulcerative colitis. And so for those that don't know. UC is very close to Crohn's. It's inflammation of, uh, of, of, of your bowels. And a lot of the symptoms that you have a lot of blood and, and you just go to the bathroom a lot. And it's just kind of one of those hidden diseases that a lot of people don't know of. And because of that, I had to go back to Columbia a lot to seek treatment. And so that was my 4 years there. I had this idea of wanting to go to Wheaton and making friends and community, and I never really found that because I Didn't feel like I— there was a lot of loss in translation moments, a lot of difference in cultures that I experienced that was very difficult. But also, I was just traveling so much because I was trying to seek medical treatment back in Colombia. And so, I finally graduated. That's 2012. I feel old. I can't say I'm already graduating in 2012. But then, the year after, I was so sick that I had a near-death experience. And that, yeah, and I attribute the miracle to God. God gave me a second chance to live after I'd been so sick. And after I came out of the hospital, I knew that my life wasn't my own.

Yeah.

And I'm big into names and identity. And as you know, the Jewish people, the Hebrew people put a lot of importance in names. Names are who you are. And Samuel is asked of God. And I felt this clear kind of call is like, I didn't save your life, buddy, just for you to go and pursue your own dreams. And so, I was in this kind of limbo trying to see if I was going to become a missionary again, but I had told God I don't want to become a missionary again and I didn't want to become a pastor. And lo and behold, a year later, I became a pastor. It's one of those things where you tell God, like, I'll do whatever.

Yeah.

but then not these things. And it so happened that I became— I didn't become a missionary. I was already a missionary before with my parents, but then I became a pastor. I became a pastor for 7 years. And when I was— I didn't— so I was an IR major. I had no theology background, but my pastor mentor back then said, like, look, I want you to start studying, doing your M.Div. So I did, and I did it online at Fuller. The idea was to kind of start studying online and then come to Pasadena. And so many different things happened and we weren't able to come. And then COVID and anyways, our first child. And finally, when we were ready to leave, we were actually going to go to Houston, to the Houston campus.

Were you in Columbia at the time?

I was at Columbia at the time. So I graduated 2012 from Chicago and Wheaton, and I went back to Columbia and I lived there until 2022.

Okay.

Um, so the year before that, we're kind of prepping to leave, trying to line everything up. And I kind of shared with, um, a mentor, a friend of mine who lives in Chiang Mai. I shared, I shared this with his boss. I shared my story, um, because when I got sick, I started getting into therapy, trying to dig into my past, trying to see, because I was dealing with a lot of anxiety. Um, because I started looking at myself a bit more holistically, like that this UC, this ulcerative colitis, wasn't just simply like this biological, physiological component, but what's underneath that? So I started going to therapy, which was the first time I'd ever done that, started to kind of dig into my past. I got into becoming a pastor too because I wanted to give back to the kids, to my youth, in the same way that I had received from other mentors and pastors of mine. But so I shared the story, and then this lady, she's like, hey, I think you should become a therapist. And I'm like, thank you, but no thank you. I finish what I start. And so I was like, we're going to go to Houston. I'm going to finish my M.Div. I actually wanted the M.Div. more for chaplaincy. So I started to kind of want this desire of meeting with people one-on-one. And for the first class that I did at Fuller, it was called Integration Practices of Integration or Formation. And you have to do this question called the central integration question. So seeing what God is doing in your life, where you're at right now, And where do you see God working in your life? Who was your professor? I don't remember his name. I can look it up later. I think a lot of different professors teach that class, but I think they all go through the same thing. Every single student has to do this CIQ, the Central Integration Question. And basically what I wrote back then was that I want to help people find healing from their past, thrive in the present, and discover purpose for their future, because it's what God had done in my life through my illness, through all my broken, shattered dreams, because I had all these ideas of what I wanted to become, but the illness just really— and then becoming a pastor. And so this was my kind of like life kind of objective, my telos, for lack of a better word. And when I went to Fuller's website, because like I was like, well, maybe Fuller offers something with therapy or counseling. So I went on and logged on and I read the description of the MFT program. And lo and behold, it was just this very spiritual moment where it was like what was on the webpage was eerily similar to what I had written in my CIQ. And it was those moments I was like, whoa, God, like what is going on here? Because I'm one of those, like I said, I finish what I start. But I was like, oh, but there's nothing in Houston. So Pasadena's a pipe dream. It's so expensive. That's not gonna happen. And so I kind of put that off. And this is, mind you, 3 months before we were going to be coming to the States. And I just kind of kept on like closing up shop in Bogotá at my church and all this kind of stuff. And it was one of those things where God didn't like let me go. Like this idea of the holy discontent, like it was just this thing that kind of kept on stirring. So I was like, well, maybe if this and that. And then I just saw that the only opportunity was either Arizona or California? And I was like, well, we don't have a lot of ties to Arizona. I love Arizona. It's fine. But Pasadena was where we wanted to go initially. I was like, what am I going to tell my wife? My wife and I are just like full throttle going to Houston. This is her first like move out of the country, like, like significant. She had done like a short-term trip to Europe for a couple months, but this was going to be a big move with both of our boys. And 2 months before, I'm telling my wife, hey, I think that God is calling me to this MFT program. And I remember it was Christmas time and we were by our Christmas tree and I was a little bit scared. I was like, how am I going to tell her, break the news that I really feel like God is calling me to this? And I did. And miraculously, she was like, I think that does sound kind of accurate. That does sound something that God wants you to do. We decide to move everything like for like, like the next month and a half as we were selling stuff and getting ready and packed and saying our goodbyes. I actually, I did the whole application. I was like, worst case scenario, I'll just finish my MDiv in Pasadena if they don't admit me to the program. And well, thankfully, whenever we moved here, they had admitted me to the program. And then I started— this was— I started the spring of 2022. I started officially with my cohort. Fall of 2022. And long story short, and I know for a lot of those that have gone through the MFT program at Fuller, for me, it was a story of redemption, not just academically, but also relationally, community-wise. And it's just— and that's how I arrived to Fuller.

Wow. That's awesome, man. That's so crazy. You know? I, it's, it, you hear a lot of stories how people end up in a grad school program, you know, and it's just like, it's not something they had set out to do and they have this kind of circuitous, I can't say the word, circuitous, circuitous journey, uh, to, to Pasadena. I, um, did you end up getting like an M.Div. too, or like an MAT or something along the way, or did the classes just kind of roll, roll into the— did you get credit for those classes?

I did get credit for some classes, but it was one of those things where I was like the old Sammy. Well, there's still a little part of that, like the ego part. I was like, oh, I want the degree, and it was just— it didn't make sense. I wasn't really enjoying the MDiv as much. I love academics, but yeah, MFT was what I was made for. I love like the classes. I've been always a nerd, so that's also a little like, um, thing on me. I loved everything that I read, but I love mostly like the interaction with professors and with, and with students and with my friends. Like, that was just what what made my experience at Fuller.

Yeah, Fuller is really unique in that way that just the MFT program, like, I don't— unless people are part of it, they may not realize it, but super cutting edge in terms of their integration. And yep, I think at the time when I had applied, it was one of the few, um, APA-approved programs in the entire country that was, you know, uh, a seminary. And, and so like, it was— it's, it's an awesome place to be. Um, so I was curious, um, when you told your wife, uh, had God kind of already been like speaking to her about this process too, or did that seem a surprise to her when you brought that up?

When I brought it up to her the first time, it was a complete surprise.

Yeah.

Because it was one of those things where I was like, I'm not sure if I'm really hearing God correctly, because it's one of those things like it— I've never been one of those guys that just kind of does like— would make such a big life change, like just change your life kind of trajectory so quickly and in such little time. But it was one of those things where like I did not— I felt God just really just gnawing at me. Like it was just— He would not let me go with this thing. And I understand now why, but, um, no, I did not include her. And I— that was like, I was like, baby, like, if this is something that is too crazy, then I also want to listen to you. But I— after she said yes, then I had also kind of like spoken to— then I spoke to like other mentors and like pastors and like saying like, hey, does this make sense? Um, so a little bit more of like communal discernment.

Yeah.

But it was first kind of like struggling with this, God, what am I going to do? Like, I'm— I have my 2 boys, my wife, and My wife and I share the load. We're together on everything, but I still felt this responsibility to take care of them. And it was just kind of really crazy. But I'm really thankful that my wife said yes because it's been a crazy adventure. It's been very fruitful, fulfilling, very difficult 4 years. But there's been so much blessing out of that. My wife is currently doing her MATM. At Fuller. Um, so yeah, so we're a Fullerite family.

Yeah.

Can't get enough. No.

This is Lance.

Lance just finished his 3rd degree from there.

Yeah, we've put, we've, we've done 4 degrees total out of Fuller. So yeah.

There you go.

So you graduated when officially?

I just graduated.

So, okay.

Um, part of the reason I took a while longer, so I was on the 3-year track, which I'm so glad. I, yeah, I, my 2-year friends and colleagues are legends. Honestly, I'm not sure how they just pack in. And I know that some, some are either single or like they have their partner, maybe some have kids, but like, goodness gracious, like that's, it's, uh, it's insane. Pedal to the metal. Yeah, it is. And I did mine in 4 years because part of like the difficulty of the 4 years that happened was that Um, at the start of my— this would have been at the start of my, my second year of 3. My dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in Bogotá. And for those that know about pancreatic cancer, it's, it's a horrible, horrible, horrible illness.

Yeah.

And it just ravaged my dad. And in about the span of 3 months, he was gone. And so I— part of like the whole wrestling that process was because I love— Fuller was such a beautiful place. Like, I felt I finally belonged. Like, I think that with my third culture-ness, It was so hard and Wheaton was really hard because I never felt like I belonged. And I was just really embraced by this beautiful community of my friends, but also the professors. I just have nothing, I have no words to express my gratitude to them. I felt, and because of that, it was such a hard decision to actually, I took a leave of absence from the program. And I remember one of my professors, and a lot of them said like, Sammy, this program will always be here. Your dad may not always be here. Because I was really debating. I wanted to like graduate with my cohort, and I wanted to be with them and do like the like the whole the classes. And because it was such a beautiful like time with them, it was just I really enjoyed my time. But anyways, the point is my dad ended up dying three four months later. That's it's gonna be three years already this upcoming January, and that was part of the process. But it's part of also like. A professor of mine said like, Sammy, like, this is part of your training. Um, and so that's, that's why it took a bit longer, but I just graduated this past June, which was a really momentous occasion. I'm so happy that I finally graduated. I love Fuller, but I'm glad that I finally— yeah, I don't know, the sense of completion of being done.

It's been a long journey and you have—

Yes.

7 and a 5-year-old.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, it was finally time. My wife was unbelievable. Like, she's supported me the whole way, the boys as well, and especially with my dad's death and having to travel back and forth from Colombia. So it was also good for the family to be like, Sammy's done finally, like we're done. My wife's like, all right, he's done now, I can like start focusing on my stuff. And she already started her degree last year. She's, she's amazing.

So where does that leave you now? What, what, what, what are you— you're working towards your hours for state licensure in California, or Yeah, that's that's that's the plan.

The plan has always been to get licensed. I just so I Lance mentioned this too. I was part of the FLP with Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer, and that was also phenomenal. That's how I and so I was looking right now. How can I still be in the RT world but find something that works with the family right now? So I'm actually got hired. Really thankful by Fuller Psychological and Family Services FPFS. And I'm really excited because I'm also hopefully going to be able to hone my Spanish clinical skills. But then I still hope to stay connected either throughout licensure or maybe, um, after some time with the RT world. Lance really graciously allowed me to be a part of his consultation group. So I'm, I'm excited to be at FPFS, but I'm still so thrilled and so passionate about RT and the work that's being done. And so, yeah, I— that's why I love listening to you guys. And I still want to be Part of the RT world because I it's changed my life. It's changed the way that I live, and I want to be able to bring that. Like I said, like part of my I think you can't take anybody where you've not been, and so I want to be able to take people through like the RT kind of like journey and like the healing that I've like I've experienced. So that's where I'm at. I'm FPFS getting my hours and hopefully getting my number in the next week or two.

All right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think there was it about Sammy when you saw him speak. 2 years ago? Because that must— something he said, or the way he said it, must have really stuck out to you for you to, you know, like, think, or to remember him and to say, like, hey, I want you to circle back when you're done. Do you remember what that was?

Uh, yeah, I mean, I think there, there's a few things. I think number one was, um, a really good poise of to be able to share something extremely vulnerable, to be felt vulnerable, but also to be able to hold the, the pain of it all. Um, and then, um, I loved it because here we are hearing about Julian of Norwich, who is like this crazy saint who's like does these like wild—

Mysticism.

Yeah, like just wild things. And, and Sammy just gets up there and he's, he's, he, he's linking it, and then He was able to link it through his experience of the suffering element, and then blending in restoration therapy, talking through the four steps of restoration therapy, and how that like liberated him, and how it meant a lot. So me, you know me, I'm always listening for restoration therapy. So to have Sammy get up there, you know, and you know, to be a, to be a student there. And, um, I was, I was really impressed by that, uh, and it was probably one of the, like, one of the better talks at the symposium. So I was— I thought he did a really good job. Um, so yeah, if you're ever looking for someone to speak at your church, um, get Sammy to come on in. He can— he'll, he'll, he'll rile them up. Um, but yeah, I think that was probably one of the The really impressive things, you know, just— I've always— I used to be a missions pastor, so I've always had like a big passion for, um, like us understanding, um, that, you know, to, to get out of our colonial mindsets and to, to really look at, um, the, the world from a fuller view, um, which is why I went to Fuller, because Fuller—

Nah.

But, um, but I think I, I really appreciate the third Um, you know, that third culture, um, kid perspective as well. So yeah, I mean, those, those were the major things for me. Um, so yeah, I was like, hey, I, yeah, I even took the initiative to tell him to reach out. So he's actually coming. He's going to be at Rhett's talking at our next consultation group, um, this Thursday.

Let's go, Rhett.

Yeah, you're gonna get extra Rhett time.

Oh boy.

That's good. I'm excited.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a hard left here and ask Sammy a question and ask Lance a question just because I'm thinking about your guys' backgrounds, my background in like ministry and like missions and third culture and this journey towards Fuller. And if, if we don't want to talk about this, we can totally just say no, but you know, you talked about like listening to God's voice and this Lance used, or one of you used the words like holy discontent, which I think is— I don't know who used that. That was Sammy.

I would never say something like that.

Yeah, Ronald Rolheiser, the priest Rolheiser, talks about that a lot in some of his writings, but I was just wondering how you think about the idea of calling, you know, because we use that word a lot as like Christians calling or vocation, and you've been on this journey a lot, and, you know, Lance is on his own journey. I'm on my own journey. A lot of people listening are on their journey, and I was just— I don't know, you have a healthy intersection of a lot of different things, and I was just wondering, how do you think about this idea of calling from your position, or how you thought about it in your own journey? Like, what is— I'm not asking a good question here. I just, I wonder how you conceptualize that, like calling.

Lance, you want to take a shot at that? I'm ready, but if you're ready, go.

Well, you're the guest. I feel bad answering a question.

Well, you know what's the big thing? Like, I— there's the recency bias, but one of the most pivotal classes for me was actually Integration Formation with Dr. Cameron Lee. He presents like, yeah, like the whole overarching idea of shalom, that is not even just as therapists, but as Christ followers that want to see God's kingdom to be established. We are actually pursuing his shalom, the holistic wholeness, the well-being for God's creation, both the natural but also human world.

Hmm.

And his class was so pivotal because it actually helped me throughout my practicum time and also the way that I'm conceptualizing it now, as I hopefully will teach it or like hopefully model it to my, to my children. Because before it was just like this, like there's like this specific thing that you're called to do. But the way that Cameron presents it is that we all have this general Calling of bringing about shalom, to work towards the shalom of the world that we're in, the wholeness, the well-being of those that are around us. And then the way I'm looking is that then out of that, I have a particular vocation. There's so many different things that I can be doing to be able to bring about that shalom.

Mm-hmm.

It just so happens right now that for me, therapy is like this confluence of so many different things of who I am. So I think for so long, like, I remember a lot of my friends being really like they knew what they wanted to do. I remember going to college and it's like I did it for the money. I did it for the recognition. I did it because I like to travel, the languages. But I never really found— I never knew what I really wanted to study in college. And it took such a long time for me to be able to arrive. And it's been this journey where part of like, I think the calling and vocation is just actually enjoying the journey. I think that God wants us. He cares more about the journey than the end or wherever we end up going. And so for me in this time, it looks like me getting licensed. My calling is to be bringing His shalom to my clients. And my vocation is wanting to finish my licensure, get licensed. But after that, I don't know. I don't know what God wants. But even shalom also looks like, how do I show up in a healthy way with my kids? And that's where RT has been Super instrumental. How do I show up healthy with my wife, which always doesn't show up great? But yeah, that's what it is for me. Like, I want to bring shalom to my wife, to my kids, to the people around me. And how I do it, then it shows up in a different— a lot of different ways. What do you guys think?

Well, first of all, I love that Cameron Lee— I, I— it's been 20 years since I've had class with him, but like, I love that idea of bringing shalom, you know? And I, I like I was asking you because you're in this like interesting phase of life where you're like, you just graduated and you're thinking about licensure. But there is that, there is that confluence of a lot of different things that makes you, you like uniquely you. And I think a lot of people, the word, you know, the idea of calling a vocation comes up a lot in therapy. And I think a lot of people they're looking for that magic that's like, this is the one thing you do, or this is the only thing. And I like this idea of, like, this idea of bringing shalom in whatever way that looks like and the unique gifting that you have. Um, you know, and you, you, you seem to keep— I like Parker Palmer's book, Let Your Life Speak, where he talks about vocation and voce and voice and listening to that voice.

Yes.

And so I think I was just going back to you at that Christmas tree lot or whatever with your wife. It's like you've been hearing this voice, you know, for so long nagging at you, calling you, and then you, you communicate that to your wife and then she's like, yeah. And it's just, I don't know, it's a beautiful kind of mysterious thing. But I kind of thought like, yeah, I wonder what calling looks like for him or vocation. And I love that you brought it back to Cameron Lee, this idea of just bringing wholeness and really restoration.

Yeah.

To people's lives.

Yeah.

Right? To not only clinical work, but how you show up with your 2 boys and how you show up with your wife and what do you think, Lance?

Yeah.

I was reading this book the other day.

Oh gosh, that's an old book I wrote. He always— he likes to pull it out every once in a while.

And, uh, there's, uh, this author, he has this whole section.

Oh yeah.

I like what you do in there though. Um, for those of you that are just listening to the podcast and missing out on our amazing mugs, I just lifted up Rhett's book, um, uh, on what it means to be a man. I think this is like pretty good to be a woman as well.

Yeah, I was writing for guys particularly in that season of life, so Yeah.

And I love that you quote Mother Teresa in it, which says, you know, her quote of, many people mistake our work for our vocation.

Hmm.

Our vocation is the love of Jesus. And, um, I think sometimes we, we get locked into the element of like, when it comes to calling, it's like, what am I supposed to do? This is going to what you're saying. Um, and I think calling, um, is more about who— what am I— who am I supposed to be? Um, and, and, and, you know, and you're in your book, yeah, you, you— I love the way you kind of weave in like 3 pages, um, the, you know, just the— that we are called to be, um, like sons of the Lord, or sons and daughters of the Lord. Like, that is our calling, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I think the more that we lean into these types of That's where, that's where we find a good foundational peace. And then, then the doing stuff can follow afterwards. And I find that to be very relieving for me is like sometimes I get caught up in the, oh my gosh, I need to do this, I need to do this, I want to conquer the world or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

But when I, when I slow it down and I think about like at the end of the day, like calling is just You know, being in the presence of the Lord, um, and, and listening, um, to what he would have. I find that, um, to be very relieving. The— I reading, uh, a while back we talked with Brad Stulberg, um, and, uh, in his book he talked of, um, the, the way of excellence. He talks about like sometimes we get locked up in Like, once I have this, I will then be this, right? And it's called the arrival fallacy, where we have this long-term goal that we're trying to attain and get to. And then when you get there, it's like, it's so fleeting. It doesn't have that. So I think when we get caught in a doing mindset, it's like we're constantly chasing and striving versus when we're in a being mindset, it's very much a really self-reflective and really helps you to enter in, um, and, and then your doing can follow. And I think that's what you— is that basically what you're trying to say in your chapter, Rhett?

Well, you know, you just prove a point to me that I forgot I'd written some of that. That was like 16 years ago, right? And but the point is, which reminds me, is that we're continually in life asking this question at different seasons. Yeah, you know, I had a mentor, a therapist mentor, say, you know, like at every significant transition, we're asking these questions of like, you know, who am I and what am I to do and how am I to be loved? And these, these questions, and we, we don't answer them once and for all, you know. And so Sammy's at this— you're at this new season. That's what intrigued me. And I was kind of— I was inspired by it listening to you, where you're like listening to this voice and, and making some pretty big sacrifices to pursue, to pursue that. And it's a, it's a good reminder that You know, things change, and Abraham's out in the desert forever, and God said, ah, time to move, time to do something different, you know. And so how does this show up, like, in your work as you think about the work you're going to be doing, um, at Fuller? And I know you had mentioned, you know, missions as a part of your background and experience and important. Like, how do you— Whether it comes to fruition or not yet, what is it that you kind of hope for or see yourself doing when you talk about the confluence of your interests coming together in the work that you do?

So an image actually Part of my peace cycle, my truth word or truth phrase that has come up that's been instrumental for me, very instrumental throughout my practicum year, and hopefully it'll continue to inform this, inform my life, is I'm a work in progress. And the image that came up for me is you've seen maybe those images of like plants or trees where maybe there's not this massive thing above ground, but you see this deep network of roots. And it's just, it's just amazing to think that for many trees— I'm not sure, I'm not, I'm not a biologist, so I'm not— I may be very wrong here, but, um, there's some plants that require for a deep rooting to, to happen before there's real growth above ground. And I think a lot of that has been my life.

Yeah.

And that also informs my work. And that even informs me as a father, because it's sometimes so easy for me to look at my child, my little one, when he's not behaving or when he's acting out or when I'm just tired. And it's just so easy to be like, don't do that, stop it. And it's my own stuff. And I'm trying to remember that I don't want to see him for who he is right now, for what he's doing. But for who he'll become. And I think that's what I want to hold for myself and for my clients, that they are not who they present as they are right now, but I want to hold on for the hope of who they'll become. And I think that's what God does with us, that He doesn't see us for what's happening right now, but for this dream of that we're going to become this beautiful thing that He already always imagined that we would become. But it's this process. A lot of my truth is like I'm a work in progress, and then I'm sinking deeply into what I'm doing. So I did that through my practicum year. FLP was amazing. I loved it, but it was tough at times, like having to like receive feedback. But then also, yeah, but that's that's the way you grow. That's the way you learn. And I'm thinking right now, hopefully, I'm also going to be continuing to be in these spaces of vulnerability where I'm going to continue to grow, sink my roots deep, and know that. Everything that's gone in the past, all like these root systems of my third culture-ness and being a pastor and my illness and being a therapist, that all is going to be informing to whatever fruit that's going to be happening. And I'm not sure what's being seen above ground, but I try to hold on to this. We can't always see everything above ground because there's this deep work that's happening underneath it.

I love that.

That makes sense. No.

And this idea that as a therapist, or it sounds like not just in your therapy, you know, therapeutic role, but in life, but just one that holds out hope for people, you know, which is so critical in therapy sometimes when you're working with people who can't see the hope or experience the hope. And, you know, the ability to say to them, I'm holding that hope out for you. I'm this I'm gonna hold this hope for you. And I, I love that imagery of like roots.

Yeah.

Going deep.

So good.

That's what I try to do sometimes with— it's, well, as you know, like generally we don't show up the best with, with, with our, with our wives, with our kids. But, um, but that's why sometimes I try to even—

Yeah, I get it, man.

But that's part of like, that's even something I try to incorporate in my 4 steps. Like, there's like this physical presence, like this physical embodiment of like, I am all right, I made this, like, this is my pain. I'm not good enough. How do I cope? But the truth is, this is the truth. I'm a work in progress. I'm digging deep. And that there's times where like, I know I've been a good father or a good husband or all this kind of stuff. And that's then, and then what am I going to do? And then just, I will go apologize to my child. I'll go apologize to my wife. That was sometimes a bit harder because of my own pride. But—

And for those of you that are listening, for those of you that are listening, I want you to know what Sammy's doing as he's saying these things. And this is something I think from an RT perspective is so good, like some to teach your clients to not only like say the words, but to embody the words. So as Sammy was saying the word root, Rooted, he kept on pushing his hands down. Um, as he's like, I'm rooted, I'm rooted, I'm rooted. So, um, I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, but like, I think this is like the more you learn how to like do the sculpting or, or, you know, embodying truth, um, things, it makes a big difference. Um, so, um, I just really encourage you as you're working with your clients and you're working on that true step, like that's such a, um, A nice precise thing to do, um, to be able to like help it to go deeper, you know, like for me, it's like, I'm loved, you know, like if I put my hand right on my heart and I say I'm loved, it's way different than if I just put my hand, um, on my side and say I'm loved. Like, it's just complete. Like, I, I feel it so much differently. So as, as Sammy says, I'm rooted. Yeah. Like he's reaching his hands down. You can see those roots and you can see the stories. Like from long ago that have helped him to come to where he is today. And as he explodes into this FFP— Fuller Psychological— what does it stand for?

Fuller Psychological and Family Services.

FP—

Fuller Psychological and Family Services.

And Family Services, yes.

The other thing with RT, Lance, that is evident here is the importance of just That's why I was chuckling is because the— I probably do more RT work in my day-to-day life at home and with family and friends and just navigating my own life. It's not just in the therapy room this shows up. It's a constant practice. And I think that's, that's been the biggest gift of being a part of this community is that it's just a way of living versus just a model that I practice.

Absolutely.

That's the big thing for me. Yeah.

Which makes it very difficult at times. You can't ever turn it off. Can't turn it off.

No, it's not like a little trick you pull into the room.

You can't, you can't unsee RT, you know.

It's like, I really want to be my pain cycle right now. I really want to be in my, like, I know what the truth is. I know what it is, but I'm like, this feels my coping. I'm sorry, I like, I should not. Oh yeah, not, not kosher, but like, it's hard.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's our human nature. But something that I love when like, I think it was Ron Deal, who I've never met, hopefully. I think he's going to be at the summit. This idea of like the art, the RT and the 4 steps that he was talking like a time about, like that we're at church and we're hearing these things, these truths, but they don't land. But the RT is kind of this embodied form that, that we can be, we can turn towards like this discipleship, like this embodiment of the truth and living out the life that God wants us to live as his followers. And I think that's, that's the hard part because we're having like this conflict. Am I going to be going down like the path of pain or am I going to go down the path of peace? And it's just that.

But yeah.

That's good.

I would be curious just because you have a pretty fascinating background in terms of where you were born and raised and places you spent and languages you speak and interests and stuff. And I was curious if there's any thinkers, writers that have been really influential for you over the years. It doesn't matter what background, what genre, Philosophy, theology, psychology, literature, whatever. I'm just wondering if there's anybody that you find yourself, you know, literally kind of pulling off the shelf a lot in your life for the work that you do that has been really, really informative.

You actually read my mind, Rut, whenever we were talking about like vocation and following. Listen to your life. Parker Palmer has been huge. Think about like even like when Michael Pacheco came on, saw like stewarding your pain, like Friedenbuechner. That he's— I'd never heard actually like the stewarding the pain. And that's also been— it's been fire for me. It's— yeah. And it's just like, you don't have to do this long on journal. It's beautiful. I'm actually I think a lot of who I am, I'll draw from so many different things. So it's not just like one thing. Like right now I'm actually reading this biography about Simón Bolívar. He was the liberator of the northern part of South America. And I'm just loving it to just understand like how South Americans work, like thinking about like the idiosyncrasies and like the culture. And if I like, how will this tie in back into the story of like if I'm doing therapy in Latin America, How's that going to look like? So, just understanding the culture, like where do we come from, like that we are a product of our history. So, like right now I'm reading that. Sometimes I'll read something about like soccer. Like I was reading like the story about like, it's called Dirty-Faced Angels and it's about like Argentina and like the whole, like a lot of people like were getting a lot of crap for like the way that they showed up in the World Cup. And I agree that like that there's some things, but there is, there's a story behind that. There's a story of why like they show up how they do. Um, so like for me, like it's just like sometimes like life stories, like my, my, my, um, my supervisor and my clinic director at my practicum site gave me this book, um, that's beautiful, like The Gift of Therapy by, by Yalom. And so like I just—

Oh yeah, classic.

In that sense, I'm pretty eclectic that— oh, hey, I didn't see—

Sorry, she's getting a little active.

No, you're good. Um, I, I'm kind of eclectic in that sense. I don't— I love Henri Nouwen because I'm thinking about, um, not the Suffering Servant, but I'm thinking like the Prodigal Son. Like, that was just— Nouwen is somebody I've gone back to a lot.

Um, yeah, I really respect his, his book Gracias, which is his journal.

Yes.

You know, when we talk about calling, he was trying to figure out, was God calling him to Peru Mm-hmm. You know, and kind of in the— really in the context of liberation theology there. And so he spent so much time there, I think 6 months, trying to get the language and learn Spanish, and he just really struggled with that. And that was before he had that pivot up to L'Arche in Canada, you know. And so yeah, just a book like that where he's wrestling in his journals just like Am I supposed to do this thing? You know, and anyways, Nouwen. Nouwen's always good.

Nouwen's amazing. I love him. I think also, I think I go back to Eldredge a lot. I like Eldredge a lot. Father by God is— I mean, I know he's known by Wild at Heart, but Father by God is a really great book. I just like a lot of different things, so I'll go by phases. Oh, like right now I'm just like in my history phase, just something different that has nothing to do with therapy.

But then I'll tell us about this liberator. I haven't heard of him.

Simón Bolívar was actually— he, he grew up in Venezuela. He was an aristocrat, and then he lived in Spain. But then he became like this holy— I'm not sure, like this discontent of how the Spaniards were treating, um, South Americans and like the way they had institutionalized like division and rampage and pillaging. And he had this dream and he's like, I'm gonna defeat the Spanish. And he was the one that was able to liberate Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, and he helped a bit in Peru and in Bolivia. But a lot of that's been really interesting is just to see, like, I mean, think about like our stories. Like, this guy was kicked out twice. He was actually banished twice because like he had failed attempts to bring the revolution about. And it was in the third attempt that he was able to. And just like trials and tribulations, like you think the people that I admire the most are those that are able to— what do they do? I think there's this Indian proverb that says like that, when they shake you, what comes out? I'm butchering like the saying, but like what's gonna come out of you when like you're shaken? And like this Bolívar guy is just like, when he's been shaken, what comes out of him? Like his finest moments have been from his defeats. And that's something that speaks to me because my pain word is not good enough. And so, when I don't measure up, what if I mess up? What are they going to think about me? And this is just an inspiration of, wow, this guy, he had this singular vision of what he wanted to do. He failed many times. He had to gather all these different factions and he was still able to do it. So, that's something just even speaking to me about just life and the difficulty of it and what are you going to do when you're shaken? what's going to come out. And I don't know. So like whenever I get into these things, like I've read so much stuff also for my degree, like it's just like reading is such a profoundly kind of sacred, kind of holy experience where like, I'm like, oh, like God is speaking to me here, even through things that don't— because I think I believe everything is sacred.

Yeah.

That I can meet, I can meet the divine even through like a history book because I can see, because we're created in his image, I can see vestiges of who God is and what he's calling us to. Um, so I even see it like in a history book, or when I see it like in a soccer book, or when I read maybe Nouwen, or I read more of a theology, or Parker Palmer. Or so all those things are— I, I— reading for me is important. I, uh, sometimes I wish I had more time, but yeah. Lost.

Is this your boy?

Thank you.

I could see the, uh, you know, if you like, you know, I could see this guy was pulling up.

Yeah, Simone Bolivar. How do you say it?

Bolivar.

Bolivar.

Bolivar. There you go. You know, don't be shy. You got it.

You are a big believer. Believer.

It's not lost on me that there's this— we talk about calling even— there's this part of you that's returning to this international relations kind of interest in people groups and wholeness and restoration, you know, that it maybe is not taking the form that you had imagined it to be in terms of a diplomat and other stuff, but it's— there's like this kind of—

Arc.

Yeah, arc is a good word to put it, where the things that ignited you early on are still there, they're just taking a different, different form. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I love that.

I'm picking up on that. It's kind of like this kind of UC kind of crisis where you realize, oh, man, it's not just about the monies or the influence or whatever, but there's a whole soul that's needing to be restored. So not only liberating You know, the— like, if we follow the, you know, Simón Bolívar, uh, mentality, but you're, you're, um, able to, um, mix in both areas, whether that, you know— and, and it's not just about, you know, one thing, but you're finding that, um, full spectrum.

Yeah. And we need—

you know, if I had an encouragement to say coming from the world of RT is like, we really need diverse and distinct voices doing the stuff that they've been equipped to do. And, you know, I'm like I was saying earlier, I'm not a— I love the Spanish culture and I love growing up in Arizona, the Mexican culture. And, you know, I've dabbled in Spanish quite a bit, but I I, man, it would be so great to see RT take off in some other, in some other countries, you know. I think that would be so valuable. And, you know, in the form that it took in its own culture, you know, because I know things will take different shapes in different cultures, but to introduce the concept, I think. And, you know, and yeah, back to you, back to, you know, just following where you feel like you're being led to. And pursuing that, I think, is just valuable. And I just want to encourage that. I think that'd be really cool. So that's the best word I can say. It'd be really cool.

Yeah.

Thanks for that.

No, look out when that happens. You know, Fuller—

no, go ahead.

No, I just want to say like that I think that part of the reason why FPFS also felt like a really good fit in this moment is to develop those Spanish clinical skills. Yeah, I want to be supervised in Spanish because I believe that I've been given certain gifts and privileges, and that I need to develop those because I honestly, I've been transformed by by RT. And even if like it just looks more like from the psychoeducation part, like relate strong or we're doing therapy, but I love to like bring this to Spain, to Latin America. I think there's so much need like to give very practical skills to be able because I think we all. Deal with pain and coping. There's going to be the cultural differences, but I think that in that aspect of humanity, we all have our pain, we all have our coping. And I would love to—I would love to stay connected with you guys and anybody else who's listening to that has maybe a heart for Latin America or for Spanish, and maybe starting to dabble into that. I'd love to talk more about that because I think that there is a whole other world that needs to be able to hear. And to be able to, yeah, hopefully receive restoration and liberation.

And anyways, so great, dude. Sammy, thanks so much for coming on today. Um, I do want to encourage people to go on to the Substack and make sure you, uh, click on, um, Sammy's talk that he gave at the Fuller Symposium. It's really good. Um, and definitely check out Sammy in the future. I'm sure he'll be hanging out with us at the summit. Amongst other places.

Yeah, Lance is referring. We'll have all the show notes. Any anything that we've mentioned, it won't have the nice Spanish sounding pronunciation of Sammy. It'll just be written out. But yeah, that's a valuable resource. If you haven't, if you don't subscribe, go to the Substack. It's just a way for us to try to connect the community. Show notes will be on iTunes and Spotify and YouTube as well. Sammy, do you have any last parting words or anything you want people to know or any way people can connect with you?

Well, first off, thank you, Lance. Thank you, Rhett. I think that one of the things that I love about this RT community is that you guys believe in the upcoming generation, and I've been very blessed to be in spaces where Older people, not that you guys— I say you guys are older people that are more seniors that believe and invest in the younger generation. That's what I hope to do. So I want to thank you and honor you for that. Yeah, you can just— my email is samichavez@fuller.edu. I'll be at FPFS. I'd love to connect. I love soccer. I love sports. I love playing pickleball. I love to read. Yeah, I don't— I mean, if you want to shoot me an email, that's great. And I love talking to people over good food. That's something I do enjoy. So thank you for having me on the show.

You gonna be at the summit?

Yes. I— so I asked my wife, and so I was like, baby, I want to go to the summit. She's like, are you taking us to Malibu? I was like, I guess I am. So that, that's, that's the plan. So I was like, yeah, maybe like we'll pull the kids out of school and maybe Maybe like stay the night or something like that while she takes me to the beach. So yeah, I'm planning. I'm really excited. I love the community part. I'm all about this. So not have to do virtually, to meet you in person, Brett, and hopefully see you again, Lance.

For sure. All right. God bless you, brother.

Thanks for tuning in. Have a good day.

Cheers. Thank you.