Season 2 | Episode 78 | Spiritual Abuse & Recovery with RT Therapist Nathan Ely

Lance!

Rat, what is up, my man?

Welcome to episode number 78 of the RT Dialog podcast.

78?

78.

Dude, that means we have 22 more to 100.

Yeah, our goal was to get to 100 by the end of the year and cruise into our summit, uh, with well over 100 episodes and, uh, just connect with everybody in person and hopefully meet a bunch of people in person at the summit. That will join us for season 3 next year of the podcast.

Get on it, come on!

So you want to say a few things about the summit?

Yeah, man, I'm excited for the summit. You know, we're starting to get some of the breakouts. I just want to tell you guys, going to the summit, you're gonna be in it— you might be in your pain cycle a little bit because you might be overwhelmed with all the great choices of things to do, and You know, if you have FOMO like I do, like, just know that whatever one you choose, you chose right, because they're all amazing and, and they're all great people. So, um, and if you miss any, we'll make sure you get engaged.

Yeah, so the website is restorationtherapysummit.com. You can register there, early bird registration to November, but we already have quite a few signups. Yeah, I'm going, and we, again, we expect to sell this out. At max capacity, which will be close to 300 at Pepperdine in Malibu. And that will be, um, September— or sorry, September— March, March 3rd through 5th. It's really the 4th and 5th, it's a Thursday and a Friday all day. And then March 3rd is a Wednesday, and we expect, you know, people will be in town, so we're going to try to do some gatherings that night. No official dinners or anything, but some loose hangout times March 3rd, and packed full of speakers. I think right now we have 25, 26 different workshops. Yeah, that we will be organizing with some, a wide range of topics and speakers. It's awesome. And then we have our plenary topics and speakers. Website is—

you can go there. I know the plenary speakers.

One of them, you're one of them.

Yeah, yeah.

And, uh, You can go to the website, but just know it's still being updated. There's still things we're adding, so we just wanted to get that up so people could get their, their travel plans.

Yes, sign up. Wait, and Rhett, do you know something that's happening in September?

Yeah, that's what I was jumping ahead here. Lance and I are doing our first together anxiety intensive, September 23rd through 26th. That's a Wednesday, it'll kick off about Wednesday evening and end on Saturday the 26th around lunch-ish. We are doing, um, an anxiety intensive for male pastor ministry leaders.

That's right, guys. It's going to be happening in Encinitas, California. This is my favorite surf break, um, close to this break called A Thousand Steps. And it's gonna feel like, um, or Stone Steps. Um, and, and we're gonna walk through all the steps while we're there. It's gonna be amazing.

And the house we're staying in is pretty awesome. Cool. Yeah, so, and I think I just want to say, you know, one of the reasons we're going this angle, Lance and I obviously, we're both male former pastors who are therapists now. We have a particular interest in helping male pastoral leaders navigate some difficult challenges as it relates not only to their own anxiety that they are wrestling with, but also navigating the anxiety that is inherent within a system like a church system, and how do we show up as a non-anxious presence when we're leading people? And we think as ministry pastoral leaders, this topic of anxiety is not going away. In fact, it's getting bigger and bigger. The stats are higher and higher. I remember, Lance, probably when we were launching the Anxiety Intensive, the first pilots, I was talking to Terry, and he said something, and it's not the exact quote, but he said something like, this is going to be like a 10-year boomerang effect coming out of COVID Like COVID, the stuff that was happening and the anxiety, he's like, we're going to see like this 10-year-long impact of just anxiety on the rise and coming back and hitting us in ways that we didn't anticipate. And I think you and I feel like we're experiencing that in the work that we do. So we wanted to be really focused in this intensive, uh, work with male ministry leaders, pastoral leaders, to help them navigate anxiety in a multifaceted way.

Yeah, so really want you guys to sign up. Um, you can sign up on turningfromanxiety.com. Um, uh, there's, there's a link on there. Um, and we're, we're definitely, you know, we, we have funds through the RT Fund, um, our nonprofit that we started. Uh, so, um, if, if you are concerned about affordability, if you can like just sign up and we'll find a way to make it go. Um, but it, it does cost 3 grand, but if you can get in there somehow, some way, we'll make it happen for you guys. Yeah, because we're just committed to the healing.

And, and $3,000 is typically— it's actually a pretty good cost for the type of therapeutic anxiety type of intensive works that you see out there these days. And so we, we try to keep it as low as possible, um, to cover our costs in the house and food and, and all the time together. And so the limit will be 6 men Um, and then Lance and I, so 6 of you will be working with Lance and I in a group, and that will be a fun time together.

And, and a special host and a special, yeah, special guest. You don't want to eat— I mean, I don't know how good a cook you are, Rhett, but you don't want to eat what I make.

Yeah, we're just not gonna order pizza the whole time, you guys. We'll have, we'll have some good food and, yeah, an amazing view that Lance and I, uh, looked at some houses and picked out one looking out at the ocean. Um, yeah, so it's gonna be really sweet.

And do you want to talk really quick about this episode coming up?

Yeah, we are— for this episode, which is 78, we'll be introducing our guest here in a minute. Um, David— say his last name for me again, I just pronounced it wrong twice.

Nathan. Nathan.

Not David. Nathan. See, I'm all— I'm a mess today. Sorry.

Hey, I mean, isn't it Nathan that calls out David?

Yeah, there you go. Go ahead.

So all these things, like, Nathan, I don't know if you knew this, but you are walking in your namesake of calling out spiritual abuse. Like, that's what Nathan and David does, right? Um, so, uh, anyways, yeah, we're— this, this is Nathan, um, Eric Ehle, um, forgive us, um, uh, but we're excited to have you on today, um, and, um, for anyone that has dealt with this issue of spiritual abuse and you're looking for some thoughts or just how to work with it, uh, this is a good episode for you, um, even if you're a non-believer, uh, I would still listen to this episode. Sometimes we get really deep in the weeds of theology and stuff in our, um, when we were talking on here, but this is actually a good one for, um, anybody, um, who deals with clients that are, um who have experienced spiritual abuse.

Yeah, and we'll, as we do always, we'll put, um, notes in the show notes. He's got a once-a-month workshop that he does, which is awesome. And, um, we couldn't go as long today as we would like with him. He had some activities to attend to with his little son. Um, and, uh, but Lance and I were, as we were talking to him, we're like, yeah, we need to have him back on and for sure go deeper into the weeds with this topic because we know all of you who listening, um, this comes up in your therapy sessions.

Dude, know what I'm feeling? Roundtable.

Ooh, roundtable. Get Terry on. We'll talk about this, especially this performance piece that comes up.

Get Terry, get DeeDee. DeeDee wrote all about boards of like— yeah, this would be really good. Yeah. Well, I hope you enjoy this episode.

Yeah.

All right, now see you all.

Take care. Lance, what's up, man?

Dude, I'm super stoked for today. Got Nathan Ehle.

That's right, Ehle.

Yes. Yeah, nope, don't do it, Lance.

Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna jump right into episode 78 because our guest is going to be on dad duty later, and Lance and I will banter at the end. So Lance, take it away.

Yeah, so we have Nathan Ehle here today. Um, he's, uh, coming from, uh, Arcadia, um, Alhambra area, um, and he's got a practice up there. Uh, excited to have him on today. He is One of our, like, group— I don't know what it is, what we should call ourselves, the ex-pastors. Yes.

Yeah, right.

Like, you know, like the, um, we all have MDivs from Fuller and MFTs from Fuller. Uh, that's right. I'm excited to have Nathan on today, um, to talk about Restoration Therapy, um, in particular his approach with talking about spiritual abuse. Um, uh, but yeah, glad, um Nathan, what, what, what would you like to tell us about yourself today?

That's great. Thank you so much for having me. It's good to be on. Uh, yeah, I used to work as a pastor, got my M.Div., I worked in ministry for a while, and then I decided to go back for the MFT. Um, love being a therapist, been a therapist for 8 years. Um, my wife and I also have a son who's 2, which is a lot of fun. Love the toddler years. Um, but I, I, I'm curious to hear from you guys what, what brought you to become a therapist. But for me, one of the big reasons was your work life and your family life were enmeshed in a way that was, it wasn't healthy and untenable for us. And so, um, I still consider being a therapist doing ministry, just helping people have healthy connection with themselves and other people. And I feel like I can help them in a deeper way than I could when I was working in ministry. So I love being a pastor, and I mean, I love being a therapist. It's just been huge for us, and the programs at Fuller were awesome too. Really enjoyed it a lot.

Nice.

Yeah, I noticed I liked the one-on-one with students. I was a college pastor, and I liked the counseling— pastoral counseling aspect of it. I didn't love— I mean, I like it now a little bit, but it's not every week. I didn't love the gap in preaching and running a program, if you will, Yeah. And so, and I also, at the time, I had a young daughter too who was a year. She had, she was a year, about a year old when I resigned after being in ministry. And I realized I couldn't keep the late night hours anymore and be gone as much as I was. And the hands, like, and therapy had these different boundaries and rules in terms of office hours and things. And so I kind of listening to what you say, like, it wasn't tenable anymore for me.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, I was married to a pastor and she was a lot better than I was, so I had a lot of— just kidding. She is a really talented pastor.

She is better than you.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, dude, when she— she's so serious with the word of God, it like, it's amazing. She'll like lock herself in this room that I'm in now and like really get into it. I just, I have too much ADHD and I really like to help people for like face to face. Um, and I feel like I was too much of a spaz as a pastor. I really liked the, um, the sacred room of therapy, um, be able to be one-on-one with people. And, uh, it's such a rewarding place, you know, like we, we get to hear things that people have never shared to anybody else in their whole lives. Yeah, we get to bear witness and also provide healing to some really difficult places. So I find I love that sacred place of therapy.

Totally. Yeah, it's great. I love it. And I feel like there's a lot of overlap. I think every pastor should get some kind of clinical training. There's just stuff that comes up with your congregation that you may not know how to deal with. And just telling people to pray, read your Bible, come to church, sometimes that doesn't cut it, you know.

Or even worse, I remember being at Fuller and the, the rule was like, just refer. Just always refer. Like, don't even— you wouldn't even give like a, like a swing. You'd be like, oh, you're crazy, go, you need help. Like, go see a therapist. Yeah, gotta be like an easier like way to take them in there.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

I was thinking about— so Nathan, this is the first time I've met you like face to face, if you will.

Yeah, yeah.

And over the last month, I was, um, I had received an email from you about a seminar, a workshop you were doing on spiritual abuse, and it actually, it caught my attention, um, in a way that some other topics haven't caught my attention in a while. And, um, and so that kind of led us and, and Lance to like thinking we need to have Nathan on to talk about this topic of spiritual abuse because it's one that we haven't really talked a lot about. And I know we'll have to have you back on to probably go in even greater depth, but tell us a little bit about your journey to get to this place where you're like, this is something that you feel really passionate about teaching and sharing with others.

Yeah, I mean, I was raised in the church. I was raised evangelical Christian, and there was a lot of good that came from that in terms of the community and the friendships and the relationships, but there was always that fear of, am I good enough? Am I worthy? Am I loved? I know God loves me, but does God like me? And there's that kind of God of wrath, like He's got His finger over the smite button ready to press it when I screw up, and then I'm done, you know, or if it weren't for Jesus, you would be destroyed, but Jesus loves you and protects you and all that, right? So there's always that kind of feeling of fear and then guilt and shame, and you know, am I good enough? Am I worthy? And all that. So I went through my own deconstruction-reconstruction journey, especially going to Fuller and kind of studying all these different ideas related to to the history of the church and all that, and theology, which is really helpful. Um, and then when I became a therapist, I worked with a lot of people over the years that, you know, were in a similar space of, you know, I was raised in the church or in religion, and I'm trying to figure out how do I cope with the bad things from that, or what does healthy spirituality look like. And I'm sure you guys have experienced stuff working in ministry as pastors, you know, burnout or all the pressure you get from, you know, people have really high expectations for pastors and what they want you to do. And so over the years, it was like, you know, this is something that comes up so much in treatment, and I'm really passionate about it, of helping people heal and find healthy spirituality. And I'd taken all these trainings that other people had done. It's such a hot topic right now in the therapy realm, especially as a lot of us who grew up in the '90s and the 2000s you know, with the church movement being so big. And so it was cool. I wrote this training, and I've been doing it once a month, and it's been awesome just having great dialogue with therapists from all over who have very similar experiences or who are experiencing things in treatment. And it's been cool to talk about, you know, define what it is, the different barriers that come up in treatment, and then how can we help people find a healthy spirituality, and what does that mean, and how can we help them move forward and heal, which has been really great.

That's— I was— yeah, I was thinking about like, I don't know, we were saying earlier, I just— when I'm sitting with someone in therapy and the only word I can think of is how like insidious and intertwined, like spiritual abuse can happen, that it's almost— it's so difficult sometimes to unravel in a therapy session. And to bring the truth out in recovery. And so I, I guess I was just wondering, like, in your own experience, like, did you have to do some of that unpacking in your own life and therapeutic work? Because obviously you had the experience growing up and you were interested in it, but I'm just kind of curious if for your own, your own journey, was that was difficult to discern?

Totally. Yeah, I've been in my own personal therapy for 15 years and And it's been great with every therapist I've worked with. My current therapist I've been with for almost 5 years now. It's been really wonderful just kind of unpacking and examining things, you know, challenging it, healing it. And even writing this training was very cathartic for me of like, oh yeah, like some of this stuff hits close to home. Some of it doesn't, you know, there's more extreme examples of more high control religious institutions and things like that. But even just the things like guilt, shame, you know, am I good enough? Am I worthy? Am I loved? There's a quote by Richard Rohr, who I really love, where he says, "Jesus didn't come to change God's mind about us. He came to change our mind about God." Like, this is how loved and adored and worthy and good you are. And that's kind of the shift that has helped me heal over the years of seeing myself as loved and adored, and especially being a dad, right? It's like, Yeah, this is how God loves all of us as His children. This is just a fraction of that, and that relentless love of God, leaning more into that, has really helped me heal over the years.

Hmm.

Yeah, it's— I think it's really been something that has been very common for me in the therapy room, you know, hearing these horrible stories. I mean, just whether I'm working with a pastor who's been experiencing abuse from like their associate and like their head pastors doing horrible things. Or the, you know, obviously, you know, we know the things that have happened in the Catholic Church, um, and we also know the things that have happened with the Southern Baptist Convention where, um, these amazing amount of— and these, these are the cases that come into our room, right?

Right.

So people say things in the name of God, um, and do horrible things to people. Yeah, and it really hasn't been like— I feel like we're the ones that, that actually get to minister to the people because I feel like the church has kind of, um, chosen, um— I— have you ever read the book by Diane Lindbergh, Redeeming Power?

I've heard of it. I haven't, haven't read it yet.

There's this like section in there that, um, where she talks about this idea that we have, um, given, um, into the idea that, um, we have to save the church over people. So we sacrifice these poor people that have been abused by the church. Yeah, we don't make it in the— we don't put that forward, um, and we, we just allow them to go in the name of church. So church is like God, and it's like— I remember reading that chap— reading that chapter, and my heart was so gripped. Yeah, because I feel like that's what happens. I see it time and time again where, you know, you talk about the sense of being worthy. No, you're not worthy enough. Um, your life isn't worth it because if you're— if, if your story comes forward, your precious sacred story of something, that of being oppressed, comes forward, uh, then, um, the church would die. So we need you to shut your mouth, not say anything. Here's some money, maybe. Or even worse, your story— like, they'll just lie. They're like, you're a liar, you don't deserve— you know. So it's, to me, it's, it's, um, uh, you know, I understand the reason in the scriptures where it says, uh, you know, taking millstones and tying it around people's, uh, pastors' necks. Like, because of— I mean, these cases where we, um, choose, you know, to, you know, uphold the church over the people, over the people.

Yeah, it's really sad.

So yeah, yeah, I'm with you, brother.

Yeah, thank you. When I always think about, you know, who did Jesus get the most mad at during his ministry? Yeah, right. It was people that were burdening people with rules and You know, he quoted Isaiah to them and said, you honor God with your words, but your hearts are far from him. Your religion is nothing but rules taught by men. You're supposed to be the shepherds of the people, but you're blocking them out and burdening them. And I think that's true. I think we still see a lot of that now, and I think there's also been a lot of anxiety from people coming in, you know, with our country and Christian nationalism and, you know, and all that kind of thing. So I think that's also kind of tied in with that in a lot of ways, because with spiritual abuse, it can happen in religious institutions, it can happen in the home, and it can also happen at the level of the state, right? So it's like countries where there's a theocracy, they can religiously persecute people who believe a different religion. Um, I think in the home is where it's the worst because it's coming from your family, especially if it's your parents. Their role is to be your caregiver, your nurturer, your protector, but when they're the ones doing the violation, it can really be deeply harmful. And it's sad because especially in high-control religious organizations or groups, you kind of get brainwashed thinking like, "Oh yeah, this is what I should be doing," or you fight against that part of you that's like, "This is wrong. I shouldn't be doing this," but they're teaching you, "No, you need to." you know, spare the rod, spoil the child, or, or whatever the, the thing is that they're doing, kind of warping, you know, that, um, you know. And so I feel— and I think with spiritual abuse, that's kind of the, the broad term of, you know, abuse that happens when a religious leader breaks up the sanctity of your inner peace or harms in any way. And then religious trauma is like the specific things that are done that are under the guise of spirituality. But there's always hope. I always feel like that's a big thing is there's always hope you can heal from that.

Yeah.

What would you—

so there's a lot of therapists who listen to this and people in ministry. So if they're listening and they're trying to like think about like, what is spiritual abuse? Like, I know that's one of the things that you define in your workshop. Like, help us understand how we would know if we're coming into contact with spiritual abuse? Like, how is it defined in your mind?

Yeah, because you need the context there of like, you know, the church, the home, and then the state, right? Yeah. What is the actual— like, what— how would you define it?

Yeah, so I mean, the broad term, you know, the way that I would define it to be, anytime anyone in a position of religious authority causes harm or breaks up the sanctity of your inner peace, right? So especially when there's a power dynamic. So a lot of religious groups, it's like a triangle. It's like one person's in charge. They have all the power, the authority. They're the mouthpiece of God. Whereas I think Jesus was about this, like it's a circle. And what does he do? He washes the disciples' feet, right? Like the bottom-up type of leadership, the upside-down kingdom. We're all equals. So I think that's another aspect of it too, is if, there's a power dynamic, and that dynamic is being abused, or someone in that position is abusing others, that can be deeply harmful. And I think with spiritual abuse, it's some of the worst kinds of abuse because I mean, it can be all the typical ways we define abuse, but your spirituality is a big part of everything you think about, you feel, you know, the lens that you interpret the world, or where do we come from? What do we— why are we here? What's the meaning of life? And it can really warp that, and it takes advantage of that desire that we have to connect. And I think a lot of religion is we come and gather together to be together, help each other out, right? It's like we don't heal in isolation, we heal in community. And I think a lot of that over history is the beauty of that, of coming together to worship and to to help each other out. But I think, yeah, with spiritual abuse, it's, you know, exploiting your need for spirituality and connection, um, and then using any kind of practices or teachings or doctrines to dominate, suppress, or even fostering dependence, right? Like, you need me to give you the answers, right? But it causes, you know, emotional harm, social harm, even financial harm, right? Um, and the other thing is it's a spectrum too of, you know, how much control do they have over every aspect of your life. And I think that's a big part of it as well.

Yeah, I'm like anxious just you talking about it.

I know, right?

And because it's the ultimate trump card in a way where it's like because it's spiritual. It's like, well, this is God's way, or this is the biblical way, or this is the right way. And so you can't even like speak out against that sometimes. Yeah, based on the context you're in, right?

Yeah.

And that's the thing, it's not God, it's people that harm, right?

Yeah, yeah. And just like those deep violations and how they, they're, they're long-lasting, you know, you never escape it because now you've created this— with spiritual abuse, you're creating a, um, like, you know, I always think about those violations of love and trust, and this violation of love and trust is, is constant.

Totally.

Sense of, am I worthy? You know, you know, am I enough? You know, am I really? So do you love— like, I love how you're like, yeah, you love me, but do you like me? Like, there's this— yeah, there's this, like, Sure, you have to love me type thing, but to be liked, that's something different. Like, totally, do you actually delight in me?

Yeah, yeah, and enjoy being with me. And because I think there's definitely a lot of that, and there's a lot of red flags of black and white ways of thinking, um, ultimatums— you're either with us or against us, uh, you got to be all in. Loyalty, you know, things like that, or even things like legalism, like you got to obey the rules, you know, heaven, hell, you know, all that kind of stuff. Literalism, taking the Bible or other sacred texts literally, not symbolically, taking things out of context, and then even things like mixed messages, right? So you get two contrasting ideas like God loves you unconditionally, but God will only love you if you follow all the rules. So it's like, okay, which one is it? You know, like, am I loved unconditionally, or do I have to do all these things in order to earn love? And that can be confusing. You kind of get that cognitive dissonance of, you know, feeling torn between two different things. Right, exactly.

It's interesting too. I didn't really— until you said it, really think about— I didn't really think about Christian nationalism necessarily in the context of like spiritual abuse. But this idea that state power, state spiritual abuse is— I guess I was just thinking too about Bonhoeffer and some of his writings, you know, in the German church there. But like, we can excuse what the state does often and think, well, separation of church and state, but there is a spiritual abuse that can be top-down in that way. That's really interesting. I don't know if you have more to say about that, but we are in an interesting time right now, and I'm curious if Sounds like you see more of that maybe in some of the workshops you do or people coming into your office thinking about that.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think with even the political stuff that's been going on, it's like the rise of Trump and Christian nationalism that's caused a lot of anxiety and fear. And there's a guy named Steve Hassan who wrote a book called The Cult of Trump. And he was raised in the Moon cult in South Korea in the '80s where they did these mass wedding ceremonies. And the same deal, the guy said, hey, I'm the second coming of Christ. Yeah. And a ton of people believe this guy. So he deconstructed, got a PhD in cult studies. And so he, he wrote a book about how, you know, with Trump it's kind of similar tactics of the things that he does and cult of personality around him. But even with politics, it's very similar of like, you know, we all, we all need our tribe of like, these are my people, this is how I define myself. I'm a Democrat, I'm a Republican. Or even like sports, right? It's like, oh yeah, this is my team and my devotion goes to this. But I think with politics—

tell me about that. Padre fan, it's tough, you know.

I hear you.

Dodger fans, jerks to me all the time. We're all good talking until I find out you're a Dodger fan, and then life changes, right?

Exactly. Yeah, everything's different. Yeah, exactly. But I think it is kind of interesting. It's like kind of what you talked about, like You look to this leader for deliverance, and they offer a promise of a better life or things like that, but then here are the people that are responsible for all our problems. This is our enemy that we can unite against, which is wrong, right? It's like we're dehumanizing, and the message of Jesus is about we are all loved. You're created in the image of God. And, you know, Jesus talks about, you know, helping those who can't help themselves, and whatever, you know, power or privilege you have, use it to help other people. And so I think with Christian nationalism, it's more wrapped into, you know, like your country or your political beliefs, but it's about dominance, and it's about empire, and Jesus—

and power is involved.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And Jesus was not about empire and he was the opposite of that. Like, my kingdom is not of this world, right? It's a different kind of kingdom.

So let's, let's take some time because I feel like we could talk the problem forever.

Right.

And it's very, it's very clear it's a problem, but yeah, we're therapists.

4 steps right now.

Right.

Yeah.

Emotionally regulate.

Yeah.

You're a therapist and I think I, I would like to hear about some of the approaches, you know, from a Restoration Therapy perspective about when it comes to, you know, the big turning point in RT is when we're helping people to understand the truth, right?

Yeah.

I feel like that's where we change as therapists. Like, everything shifts in that moment where, like, we go from this place of, like, like, I got your pain cycle. Oh yeah, I understand, but now it's time for change.

Right.

So tell me, like, how, how do you think about the, that transition point, or even any other points in RT where, um, helping people who struggle with spiritual abuse and maybe things that we should be more mindful of?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big thing is, you know, with like the pain cycle, it's like, okay, where is the source of this pain and hurt from childhood, from, you know, but if it's wrapped in with, with church trauma or religious trauma, that's important to process that and work through that, but I think you're right. It's like once you understand it, you can move through it and come out to the other side of a healthy view of yourself, and I think healthy spirituality starts from a perspective of, "I am worthy. I'm good enough. I'm loved. I'm capable. I can make my own decisions and choices," because a lot of spiritual abuse teaches you you can't trust yourself. Right? Like, you know, you're sinful, you're unworthy, you need to trust me as your leader to give you the answers. But the truth is, no, you can trust your gut. You can trust your intuition that this is wrong or this is right. You have the opportunity to discern. And so I think a lot of healthy spirituality, I think it totally goes great with RT of, you know, what is the truth about yourself that you can meditate and hold on to, that no one can take that away from you, right? That you are inherently loved and adored and worthy. And then what's the positive action you can take, you know, to reconstruct? Because I think we talk a lot about deconstruction, which is good, but then you have to also reconstruct after you deconstruct. Like, let's build something and, you know, take the good that you, you learned from where you grew up and what you believed, and then the bad stuff, let's, let's analyze that and then let's build and create something new, right? So, and I think a lot of healthy spirituality, you can just start with the basics of like, it comes from the search for meaning in life, coming up with answers to big questions like, why are we here? And what's the purpose? But there's a lot of compassion, forgiveness, respect for yourself, unconditional love, looking from your experience and trusting yourself., and then letting faith and doubt coexist, right? Like, don't just believe something because someone tells you. Think about it for yourself. Go, go read for yourself, you know. Read your Bible, or if they're not Christian, you know, whatever religion they're part of. And not to lock God into a particular denomination or church building, right? Like, God— you can experience God in nature and in relationships and other things. And for people who are leaving religion. It's like, okay, how can you find a healthy connection with yourself and other people outside of that and still find a spirituality in that? Um, kind of opening your mind to other things. Or even with atheism, it's like the way I was taught to believe about atheists, like, oh, they're dead spiritually, they don't believe in anything. But the truth is there's still theologians, right? Their theology is thoughts about God. Their thoughts about God is there is no God. That's a spirituality, right? So it's like having that kind of open-minded perspective, I think, can really unlock a lot of doors and set people free so they can have a healthier connection with themselves and with other people, which I think is really great.

Yeah. What do you think about that?

No, I was actually— this is going to turn into personal therapy here for a second, but actually what I was thinking about, really all of us, but Nathan, your own journey and stuff, You know, I noticed once I did my MDiv and became pastor, I was very sensitive to a lot of things around me being in a church, and that could make me gun-shy to participate in community or to find the right church, you know. And then becoming a therapist too, like my quote-unquote kind of Spidey senses are up when I walk into a church community and sense different things, or what I sense is some kind of spiritual abuse. I guess I'm just wondering how we navigate, you know, this world because obviously we're all broken in different ways and we live in broken communities and we're trying to participate in community. And I know no church community is perfect, you know, and so I don't know, I guess I'm just wondering, you know, you teach in this a lot and you probably are in community in church and sense things. And so how do we live in the midst of this as well? I guess what I'm wondering. How do I live faithfully with my own struggle when I see these power dynamics, and when is it right to pull the plug and go somewhere or to stay committed? I don't know sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question because, you know, the kind of the model for me growing up is you just stick it out, and you know, oh, you're called to be here, but there's a lot of manipulation in that of like you are called to stay at this church and to to do these things, or the one I got a lot was, "If you don't do it, no one else will," and "You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you." It's like, yeah, sure, but also Jesus was the Son of God, and he also took breaks and went off and got some alone time. God rested on the seventh day, you know, not because he needed to, but to set us an example of you can practice self-care and that's okay, and a big part of healthy spirituality is it should always be one foot in, one foot out. Right, so if you ever start to feel pressure— I need to do more— that's not a healthy environment, right? It's like, no, if you want to help, great. If not, that's okay, or if this community is great and you feel fed here and you feel connected, that's great. If there's another church that's a better fit, that's totally fine. Go where you need to be, and that is great, right? Like you don't hear that a lot from pastors, right? It's a lot of like, we need you here. We need you committed. Give us your money. I mean, give us your money. Yeah, or it's a rowboat, not a cruise ship, right? You gotta— everybody's got to pitch in, which is a healthy version of that, but I've been very encouraged to see a movement of churches that have been growing over the past, you know, few decades or so of people who have— they're like churches for people who've been hurt by the church, and it's like, we're here to heal and help and to grow, and to gather together for worship and process what we've been through. But yeah, like one foot in, one foot out. Like that, I think that's a great way to think about it. And it's okay. I mean, the other thing is a lot of religious trauma can come from leaving the community of like, this is my friends, my family. You know, I've been here for years. Right, exactly. Or even just the loss of like, maybe you're not getting excommunicated, but it's like, I'm finding another community, I gotta start over, but I don't get to see all these people again. And maybe we don't have the same levels of connection or friendships, you know, so that can also be difficult. But like you were saying, I think it's important to find a space where you feel safe, you feel loved, right? Talk about RT, right? Like the trustworthiness, safety, and even checking in with your body, like, do I feel tense and tight? Or do I feel relaxed? Because some churches I'll visit and I'll just be like, oh man, I feel so relaxed and this feels great. But then some churches I'll check out, I'll just be like, oh man, this feels stressful. I can't even sit through a lot.

I am not in my peace right now. God of peace that transcends all things is not happening here, right?

Exactly. Gotta do the 4 steps.

You know what I was thinking of right now is when Terry Eric Ehle says, and he said it to me a lot in my own journey, like, a performance-based identity is no identity at all.

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

And I was thinking about church environments where they play on the performance. Like, they can tap into that pain of yours, like, I got to perform more, I got to do more, I got to fix more. And that works, right? Yeah. And so I was just thinking about myself over the years where I'm It looks like on the outside I'm thriving in a church community, so I'm performing and I'm doing things, I'm getting applause and affirmation, but deep down I'm actually in my pain, right? And, and, uh, I don't know, I was just— that was— that phrase was going through my head. And just, that's about— that's kind of how insidious this spiritual abuse can get in our lives.

Then, dude, that's so f— like, I think about it because performance is control, right?

Right. Yeah.

And, and when you think about, like, it's so— maybe this is why people are so drawn to it, because they have some sense of control. Yeah, right. In the midst of it, like, if I go to the church that says that God loves me no matter what, if I go to the place that I have to embrace the mystery of the Godhead, um, and not know certain things there's a huge lack of control for a human being there, right? And where we say, no, surely I must be involved here, right? I must have a huge role. I, you know, whether it's my mission, my calling, whatever, like, versus like, no, who are you at the root of it? You know, what's the truth about who you are? What's the truth about, um, like where you stand and the sense of trustworthiness?

Totally.

What can you hold on there? Like, I, I, yeah, I think there's, I appreciate that a lot, Rhett. I think that's so powerful.

Yeah, I agree.

Nathan, you got, you're going to be hopping, I know you're gonna hop off in a few minutes. So a couple things. One is I want you, if there's anything you want to say, and we'll definitely have you back on because I know we can go in deep.

Yeah, this is great. I love this.

I think it's really important. Um, so any closing words? And then second, I would love if you have like 2 or 3 books or something that you could recommend that you're like, if someone is really into this topic, here's where you would recommend maybe they start their journey or look or begin.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I guess I would say, uh, you know, if you're listening and you've been through anything like this, you are inherently loved and worthy and good enough, and there's always hope to heal. We may have some scars, but you can heal and you can move through it. And also I'm a trauma therapist. I do EMDR, and I've seen the deliverance and the freedom that can come from people processing this kind of stuff and healing and moving forward. And I think a lot of healing comes in relationship. You know, when you have healthy relationship and healthy connection with yourself and others, there's so much hope and healing in that, which is beautiful in so many ways. And so one of the reasons I, I mean, I'm still Christian, I still love Jesus, and I love that aspect of, you know, Jesus is about bringing life and setting people free. And there's so much beauty in that, right? That there's hope in the resurrection, that there's new life. You don't have to be afraid anymore. So yeah, I think it's great. I love that we're talking about this. I love doing these kinds of conversations and getting the word out more. So some books, there's so many great resources. Really good book I connected with that I love is "The Universal Christ" by Richard Rohr, which is a lot about healthy spirituality. And he goes deep. I mean, he's a Franciscan monk, but he really goes into kind of more of the healing and the love of Jesus and kind of where some of these more black and white ideas came from throughout history. There's so many good books. There's one called Religious Refugees: Deconstructing Towards Spiritual and Emotional Healing that's really good. There's another one. Oh, Jesus and John Wayne is pretty good if you guys have heard of that one. It's great. Yeah, that's a good one about like evangelical history and kind of where that came from, which kind of helped me a lot. Another one, Searching for Sunday is good. It's loving, leaving, and finding the church kind of healthy spirituality stuff.

Who's that by?

Oh God, who wrote that one? That is— oh, Evans. Evans is the name of their last name. That one's pretty good, but there's a lot of great documentaries and movies and things like that. I watched one called Shiny Happy People, which is really good on Amazon. I play a clip of that in my training where they interview Joshua Harris, who wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye and all that. He's on his apology tour right now, being like, I was wrong. He was also like 25 when he wrote that.

But have you seen the book Myths of Good Parenting?

No, no, I, I need to—

Christian Parenting.

Good Christian Parenting.

Oh my gosh, it's such a kick in the— you know, you talk about, you know, the, the violations at the home because you— I like, I like the contextualizing it of like there's the church hurt, right? Then there's the church that is at home hurt. So the good of the, the Miss of Good Christian Parenting is, is that one.

Totally. I'll check that out.

Yeah, that one's been pretty powerful. And then you also named the one for the state hurt. I mean, obviously Bonhoeffer hits that between the eyes and this curiosity in around where we've created idols in our current culture that we forgot who the author and perfecter is.

Totally.

Very concerning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Nathan, we, we will let you go because you got important work to do.

2-year-old. Yeah, that's right.

Just for people listening, they obviously know the drill. We'll have all this in the show notes. Um, your website is Nathan Ehle— Ehle, is that how you say it again?

Or Ehle. Yeah, yeah.

Ehle. Sorry. Nathan Ehle. NathanEhleMFT.com. And then you do that monthly workshop Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll put information on our show notes for that as well. And I'm gonna—

what's she charge for the workshop?

Uh, it's $100 and it's, uh, 4 hours and you can get, uh, 4 credits. Yeah, 4 CEs towards your license. Yeah. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Come on guys, sign up for that. Yeah, we'll definitely push that. And, um, we just appreciate you, you know, taking the time to be on with us and glad that you're a part of this. Great. Part of this community that we love and totally look forward to you continuing the good work you're doing and, um, hopefully connecting with you in person. Hopefully we'll see you at the summit in March.

I'll be there. Yes, I'm excited to see you guys. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been wonderful. You guys are doing great work and, uh, I really enjoyed this conversation a lot.

All right, well, Lance and I are going to stay on and chat a few minutes and you can just exit out and we'll talk to you soon.

Great, take care. Good to see you guys.

See ya, take care. Bye. Dude, I'm like, my heart's— I'm like feeling kind of like that anxiousness in my chest. Yeah, just because of like, there's something about this topic that hits deep for me, just being raised in a Christian environment and actually very, I think, loving and safe Christian environment, by the way. My dad was a pastor, but like seeing the impact in my work and the work I do with pastors today, like, oh dude, and the huge following some of these communities have with people that is just destructive. It just kind of hits me in my gut.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think about just the weird things that we do in the name, like, of, of— I mean, I can only imagine the horrible things that people would say to you when, when your mom passed. Like, um, like, about, you know, I feel like we— like, which would be a form of spiritual abuse, like, to say, like, you know, the, the horrible things that, um, they come up with. She's in a better place now, or yeah.

Which are probably like well-meaning in people's minds, but the way that it's transmitted in community can take on a very abusive impact in terms of, like you said, violations around love and trust.

Yeah.

You know, I, um, yeah. Well, is there, um, anything that he said that just like jumped out at you or you're gonna chew on for a little bit in particular?

I'm with you, man. This, this whole topic grips my heart, um, and I, I just— the, the pains of it all, um, and I think it's— it is fascinating to me too because I think, you know, we do have our borderline people there who say they're abused by the church, and, you know, like, I think sometimes they're actually not. So I think we have to like do a little bit of, um, uh, what's the word, like, you know, making sure that this is discerning. We have to be discerning, like, not, not to say, like, but just being, being mindful of that. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think this is a big issue, and I think it's gonna come up more and more. Um, and, uh, you know, as these big reports come down with the You know, when that SBC thing came out, like 700 pastors that nobody did anything about, like, yeah, it's this huge cry for justice is like, which, you know, for us in the, you know, I was thinking about the forgiveness model with restoration therapy and how that's so important to have engaged in this whole process of, you know, I mean, the whole RT is founded off of Busserman and Nage, who said, you know, Like we're all about, you know, between give and take about, you know, the fairness that needs to play out. So yeah, I think those are the big things that are on my heart.

I think an interesting listen to, if people want to like understand and get some of its power and dynamic, is, um, Mike Cosper about 2 years ago did a podcast, The Fall of Mars Hill, which is about the journey of really Mark Driscoll's church Mars Hill up in the Seattle area. And the really wide-ranging spiritual abuse that took place in that community and the fallout from it. And you know, I was at Fuller at a time when Mark's— one of his first books came out. I remember looking at it in the bookstore, and that was during the Emergent Church movement too, and so I was— you know, I have to say at that time in my life he was saying something that attracted me, from a church model perspective and everything. Um, but over time, no. And to see the impact of that in this community, and, you know, I'm not trying to narrow— I'm not trying to pick one person out here, but, you know, he's got a pretty massive church again there in Scottsdale, Arizona, and having a huge impact in this cultural moment we're having, um, where there's just a lot of spiritual bullying and abuse that, um, in the name of Christ seems to be okay with a lot of people. And so I just—

not—

yeah, not okay. If this is you, if this has happened to you, if this is happening to you, it is not okay. Like, if you are in a church context where you are experiencing this, it is not okay. Yeah, right. And if, if someone is trying to tell you that it is okay and, and you clearly know this is, um, oppressive and evil, this is not good. This is, you know, this is wolves in sheep's clothing, man. I mean, this is the stuff. So, man, yeah, sorry. No, yeah, I just care a lot about this.

Yeah, and I— the thing, reason I mentioned that podcast is because when you listen to it, which is quite long, it's like 8 episodes or 9. Yeah, phenomenal. You'll get some language and hear some interviews and stories that you're like, oh, this, this is what spiritual abuse looks like, because sometimes we don't actually see it for what it is. Um, so anyways, Nathan, we appreciate you being on. We will link to all the stuff you're doing and the once-a-month training, which I plan to do next time around when I'm available. I couldn't this last time, so, um, and it's cool that we have someone like him in our community doing this work.

Yeah, engage with it, guys. It's good stuff.

Yeah.